The Better With Brock Podcast transcripts.
Brock (01:21.934)
Today is the 31st of December, 2023. And it's also my 30th birthday. And on my 30th birthday, I thought it would be very timely to release a podcast to get out all of the lessons that I've learned. In my notes, I titled it, I titled it 31 lessons from a 30 year old. And this isn't
from a place of me trying to be a life coach at such a young age, well, what I think is young now, but when I was 18, I thought was so old. It's not me trying to stand on a pedestal and say, I've achieved this, I've achieved that. Look at me. This is literally just things that I've learned along the journey of this thing that we call life. And to get 31 lessons out in somewhere between 60 to 75 minutes is going to be a bit of a challenge. So bear with me. I'm just going to jump straight into it.
This is a mix of fitness tips, life tips, and everything else in between. They often have a lot of crossover. And that's the thing that I really love about fitness. It's not just fitness. It's not just improving your body. It's self-improvement. It's everything that I created with the Better With Brock podcast. And the reason why I did it, I did it to inspire people to be better because I got really hooked on.
self-development books when I was young and I felt like that really fast-tracked my thinking and helped me to mature and grow up. Obviously the life circumstances that I faced also helped me to grow up and mature but I believe when you pursue self-development, not cheesy self-help, motivation porn that they put out these days, but when you truly seek to become better, your life is always...
as a result going to become better as well. So let me jump into the first one. This is fitness related and something that I really changed my mind on recently and it's all calories are not created equal. I've changed my mind since I did a challenge called the 30 day ice cream challenge where I ate ice cream every single day for 30 days in addition to my normal diet. And there was simply just to prove if you create a calorie deficit.
Brock (03:45.374)
You can eat the foods that you love and still drop body fat. The big nuance here now is yes, you can lose body fat by eating ice cream every day, but at what cost is that coming to? And the podcast I released before this was with Dr. John White. And we talked about cancer prevention. I've had a lot of conversations with my wife who's really clued up when it comes to gut health, there's other people that have well gut.
microbiome and gut health awareness has really improved lately and even just how you feel on certain foods really impacts the success of your diet. So I definitely don't regret doing the 30 day ice cream challenge, but I would like to give different advice. Yes, you can have ice cream every now and then, but having it every day is probably not going to be the best thing. A calorie is a calorie, just like a kilometer is a kilometer. Six foot is six foot.
How you feel when you consume 2000 calories of McDonald's versus 2000 calories of, let's just say a clean bodybuilding competition prep diet is going to be very different. One's going to leave you feeling very hungry and wanting to eat a lot more and one of them's going to leave you feeling satiated, feeling full, feeling recovered, feeling energetic. And that's a big difference that I think people really need to understand is that All calories are not created equal.
That doesn't mean you can't have ice cream every now and then like I outlined. I love gelato. I still have it every now and then. I still have burgers pretty much every weekend. So I'm not saying that you have to eat like a competitive bodybuilder. I'm just saying that all calories are not created equal. And if you're just looking at macros, the whole, if it fits your macros, diet revolution was massive. People were just having protein shakes and pop tarts, but now I think we've matured.
And I'm speaking to myself as well. I've definitely matured in my journey with nutrition. So when you are looking at losing fat or just consuming your diet normally, think of how you're feeling. Some people feel better on low fat diets and high carbohydrates. Some people feel better on low carbohydrate diet, high fat diets. Protein should always be high. And I think most people will agree that they feel better with high protein diets. And it's also better for body composition. So.
Brock (06:09.762)
That one's gonna stay relatively the same, but also when we look at our fiber intake, we feel better when we have higher fiber intakes. We'll feel better as in, we feel better when we're trying to lose fat. We feel more full, that's for sure. And that feeling of fullness really does carry over in the success of one's diet, because when you are feeling full, when you're losing weight, there's no reason to cheat on your diet or go outside of the boundaries of your calories because you feel full and you feel satiated. And the statistics for diets.
are pretty disappointing to be very honest. As a personal trainer, when I'm trying to get someone to lose fat, you're definitely swimming against a very strong current. But having a diet that's high in fiber, at least around 15 grams per 1,000 calories that you consume is a good place to start. So that's point number one. That's the first lesson that I would say I want to pass on and have also changed my mind on. I thought it was very just eat your calories, eat your macros, and you're good.
But there's a lot of nuance in between that. You have to really look after the types of foods that you're consuming. Foods that are high in fiber, foods that are high in nutrient density, foods that are going to help you not be deficient in anything. So usually that's fruits and vegetables, nuts, legumes, low processed foods. The second lesson, embrace the 1.25 kg plates. And this is speaking to progressive overload and applying progressive overload.
Really strong people, when you see them train, they don't put on 20 kg plates every time they increase the weight. They don't do massive jumps in between. What do they do? They embrace the 1.25 kg plates. Those are the smallest plates in commercial gyms that you can put on the bar to make it heavier. And the beauty of embracing the 1.25 kg plate is it's just that little bit better.
And when we're looking at progressive overload, building muscle and getting stronger, we have to look at things that we can just 1% better, 0.5% better, just increase that little bit. And that's where those 1.25kg plates come on. So if I'm bench pressing 120kg...
Brock (08:27.306)
The next week, if I do 122.5 kg because I've put those 1.25 kg plates on each side, I'm getting better. It may not look like it, it may not look drastic, but if I keep doing that week after week after week after week, my 120 kg will one day be 140 kg. I didn't go from 120 to 140 the next session. That's impossible. That big gap is too large. But.
I went from 120 to 122.5 and then I went from 122.5 to 125 and then I went from 125 to 127.5 and it kept increasing, kept increasing and then I'm at 140. And this also lends itself to the idea of Kaizen which is this word that just translates to continuous improvement, small improvements daily. It also
connects to the idea of get 1% better every day. And if you do that, you'll look back at the year and you'll be a completely different person. Day to day, you'll feel the same. Even week to week, you'll feel pretty similar. Month to month, it'll be quite hard to see a change. But year to year to year to year, if every day you're pursuing that 1% better, and I'm talking about it in aspects of the gym, lifting that slightly heavier weight, doing that extra rep of the same weight, another way to apply progressive overload, if you didn't know.
And when you do that, at the time, it feels a bit like a waste of time. You're like, oh, man, should I really waste this energy to put on 1.25 kg plates? My answer is yes, get off your lazy ass, put that 1.25 kg plate in your rest period, set up, and then go again. Because if you have that bigger picture understanding, and you zoom out, and you look at how you improve over time, those 1.25 kg plates are going to slowly...
improve you in all aspects of your life, but especially in the gym. Point number three, I called it wash the dishes. In other words, take the job, do more and learn more. I say wash the dishes because I was a kitchen hand. My, my brother was a head chef at a restaurant called Lone Star back in Christ Church, I was studying and I needed a job.
Brock (10:48.99)
and my brother gave me a job, I was washing dishes. And it sounds like the shittiest job you could ever think of. But when you're a student, you take whatever you can. But it's actually made this list because it really changed me as a person when I look back at it. Washing the dishes. Just doing things. Because, well, what did I learn from washing dishes? Not much.
from the outside looking in, but if you look at me as a person at that young age, I learned how to cooperate with people. I learned how to get along with people. I learned better conversational skills because I was working with people who were also studying at uni and people like my brother who were older than me, four years older than me. There were other people 10 years older than me, 15, 20 years older than me when I was working this job. And it really gave me social skills. Not that I was socially awkward, but it...
helped me to communicate with other people, to work as a team, to work in a professional environment as well, to have a uniform, to show up, all these things that I didn't have before I worked this job. Another thing that it really helped me do, and this is from a professional perspective, is it helped me create systems. Because when you wash dishes, you get a ton of plates just thrown at you. And when you're overwhelmed and overloaded with work, your capacity is at brim. It's at the brim.
And you have to deal with what's in front of you and create systems that are going to be the fastest way to deal with the problem in front of you. And when it's 10 p.m., the restaurants close, people are out, the chefs are closing up and they're giving you pots that have been burning for three hours and they're black on the bottom. You have to manage them. You also have to manage the stacks of plates in front of you. You also have to manage the cutlery.
You also, so at this job we had two kitchen hands. So one had the hose spraying it down, put and loading the dishwasher. And the other person was scrubbing the pots and pans. And they were also getting the sirloins when the chefs called them, or getting the prawns when the chefs called them, or topping up the milk when the chefs called them. So there was two roles. So you also had to learn how to manage those two roles with the people that were working. Okay, so what were my strengths and what were the...
Brock (13:09.378)
the other person's strengths and how can we work together. And this taught me valuable lessons. So for example, when you get all the pots and pans instead of just trying to scrub straight away, we'd put boiling water in them and just set them aside and then work on the plates. That is not a mind boggling invention, but it's just, these things you can apply when you're older. Now I know.
you know, sometimes there's things that you can just like let simmer, that you can let settle. Then there's some things that need to be addressed immediately. If a chef yells at you and says, get the sirloin steak, you can't just go, okay, I'm going to let that simmer and work on this other thing. Because you've got the stressed out overworked chef that's shouting at you that wants it immediately. So you go and do that straight away. And I think that I learned a lot from just taking the job, washing the dishes. And it reminds me of a quote that really guides me.
It really, really guided me as a young adult and still does as an adult today. And that is lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth. It's actually from the Bible, but it just couldn't, it just couldn't be more true.
Brock (14:17.758)
Like being a diligent kitchen hand didn't make me rich. It didn't make me wealthy, but it gave me the skills and it gave me the awareness. It gave me the characteristics or the traits that really gave me the tools to try and be wealthy, to try and be rich. Let's say if that was a goal of mine, but also to become a better critical thinker, to become a better problem solver.
The fourth lesson, habit pairing. And these are random. So I just thought about 31 life lessons, and I just wrote them all down. And this is just the way that they poured out. Habit pairing. So this is an idea that I got from the book Atomic Habits by James Clear. And this really, to make it really simple, is just when you pair two habits together to help you make sure that you don't forget a habit that you want to form.
So an example that I use a lot with clients is taking creatine because creatine is a supplement that you have to take and it absorbs into the system. It doesn't have acute effects. If you take creatine today, tomorrow you're not going to feel any benefit. It takes one month to absorb it into the system or 14 days if you double the dose and you load it. And many people forget to take their creatine every day. So my solution to that is pair it with something that you already do every day so that you don't forget it.
If you brush your teeth every night before you go to bed, which I highly recommend if you don't, when you brush your teeth, take your creatine as well. Maybe take your creatine first and then brush your teeth. That way, you're not going to forget to take your creatine because you're going to pair it with something that you never forget to do. Every day when you wake up, if you put your socks on, take your creatine. I just think it's a great idea. People are always wanting to...
end old habits, begin new habits, and they feel so hard. Trying to give up smoking, trying to go to the gym, trying to give up doom scrolling on your phone, which we'll talk about later. Trying to, I don't know, stop going around and sleeping with different women every single time you go out. If you're trying to end these things, it's really hard. So when you get these urges to do them, if you wanna forget them, pair it with something that you actually want to do. Or if you want to remember to do something like take creatine.
Brock (16:43.362)
do it with something else that you already do every day. I just think it's a really valuable concept to have in the back of your mind. When you're looking at creating new habits, especially with the beginning of 2024, literally being tomorrow, uh, lesson number five, don't give yourself a backup option. And this really speaks to me a lot because it's, it's been my life. Uh, when I was younger, I was, so I was born in a city called Christchurch, New Zealand.
And then I ended up moving up to Auckland to try, you know, move on to greener pastures, a bigger city with more opportunity. And I really had no backup option. I had to make it work and I made it work because there was no, there was no backup plan. And it sounds really unintelligent. It sounds really naive when you hear it like this, but there's so many success stories that you hear of people. And I'm not trying to group myself into this category, but people that have had no other option but to show up.
If you look at the rock story, Dwayne Johnson, his story is very similar. 50 Cent, his story is very similar. They all have this kind of point where there's no other option but for them to succeed. And for me, I packed up my shitty Honda Civic, my first car that was rusty, like rusty wind wipers cost $500. My dad bought it for me and it got me around.
It had an oil leak. I tried to get a warrant and rego. It didn't take it. I said, I need to leave today. They said, we can only fix it on Monday. So I left with a car with a huge oil leak, no warrant, no rego, packed full of all of my clothes. I left everything back home in Kruschevich and I drove to Auckland. I drove for six hours, slept at my nana's house to say hi on my way up, and then I jumped on a ferry. And then I drove for 10 hours straight. I almost slept in my car, but a good friend of mine paid for me to sleep at a hotel, which I'm so grateful for.
And I had pretty much no money. My dad gave me $800 to go but when I arrived in Auckland I had to get my car fixed because I had a huge oil leak and it literally just made it the Motor was making crazy noises and every major city that I was driving I had to put new oil in it when I got there. I went to get it fixed. It cost $800 exactly so I was back to zero dollars. I had no real family in Auckland. So I slept on a friend's couch
Brock (19:08.042)
which ended up being pretty much like a little fold out bed right beside the dishwasher, so very loud. At night, they still put it on. Yeah, it was a rough time. I didn't have a job, I looked for a job, I didn't have friends, so I just kinda like spent time on my own. You know, I cried a lot, I cried myself to sleep a lot, but I made it work, I got a job. I ended up getting a place to stay.
It was terrible, but it was a place to stay. And I slowly started getting on my feet. You know, I tried to pursue music. That didn't work. I had no backup plan. So I became qualified to become a personal trainer. I became qualified. I worked my ass off, 6 a.m. till 9 p.m. I actually, and while I was doing that, I was still working other jobs as well. So I was 6 a.m. till 8 or 9 p.m. every day at the gym. This was in Auckland when I moved there. And then on the weekends,
I was doing other jobs that I could do. I was trying to do modeling jobs. I was trying to do TV presenting jobs. I was just like applying everywhere. I was working for Javianas at one point, selling jandals or thongs. That's what we call them in Australia. But you know, I guess, you know, I'm not trying to say I definitely haven't achieved anything like the rock, but when you give yourself no other option, there's no other option but to be great.
and to get better and to make it successful. You have to think laterally. You have to think on your toes. And that's why I'm a big fan of moving out at a young age, because you figure stuff out. You have to pay your own bills. You have to feed yourself. You have to wash your clothes. You have to get around. You have to commute. Do you buy a car or do you try and commute by train or bus? You know, it's how you figure out life. It's how you get on your feet. You know, I was so broke at times that I would go around to these like,
Chinese grocery store slash markets and get everything that was reduced to clear because I couldn't afford the proper foods and I was like eating eggs and I was eating carrots and I was eating very like cheap things that were reduced to clear and I was eating a lot of like not meat I was eating like minced meats that were like super fatty and then I was eating a lot of liver hearts and things like that because they were cheaper and that
Brock (21:31.406)
taught me resource management, taught me how to balance my finances. It also taught me to work hard to get out of the shithole that I was in. Um, so yeah, don't give yourself a backup option. You know, I have friends that have, uh, you know, come over from different countries and restart and the visa situation is very difficult in Australia, especially when you come over and you can't work because you don't have that visa or you get the visa and then they don't sponsor you or you still have to study, but then to study it costs an arm and a leg. It's very difficult, but
If you don't give yourself a backup option, and I'm not saying to not have a, I don't know, if you're pursuing to be a personal trainer, not to get qualified as a psychologist if you really want to do that, that's completely cool. I just had no other option, and it gave me no other option but to succeed. Lesson number six, if you don't have the circle you want created, and this takes me back to that time when I was in Auckland.
and I had no friends. I was living in a house with five other people. I was paying $150 a week rent because it was literally a villa and there was, and I say villa and it sounds really nice, but it wasn't. It was just like a house with a long hallway, rooms on the side, and then a kitchen and kind of lounge room at the end. And they were all awesome people. Don't get me wrong, but I didn't have the circle that I wanted.
So what did I do? I read a ton of books. This is when I really dived into self-help. I read The Power of Positive Thinking. That really impacted my life massively, which I'll touch on later on. I read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I remember reading The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck. And I really dived into these books. I read the one by Napoleon Hill. What's that one? It's kind of like get rich or die trying. Oh, but it's not.
I think in grow rich, I read that really impacted my life. And because I didn't have the circle I wanted, I didn't have the friends that I, that I wanted around me because I was in a new city trying to establish friendships. I kind of created it with books and in this day and age, you could probably do it with podcasts and you could do it with other materials, maybe courses, if you have the financial resource to buy them. But I read books, I got them from secondhand stores.
Brock (23:52.898)
They cost me like a dollar or two. They were from like op shops, which is what we call them in New Zealand. And, you know, they really helped me create an environment that helped push me, helped me develop myself, helped me, you know, I got into this real self-help world and now it's really cheesy and it's really be motivated and not disciplined. And the same stuff keeps getting regurgitated, regurgitated. But at the time, this was the only stuff that was helping me and getting me out of the
I wasn't in trouble, but I wanted better for my life and I didn't really have the people around me saying that.
So if you don't have the friends you want, if you don't have the life you want, if you don't have this circle of influence around you that you really think will help lift you up, create it yourself. Obviously, you have to take action and be bold and do things to create a change in your life, but it does really help to have this environment around you to craft your character. Next one.
This is a great quote that I heard that I applied and didn't really know until I was aware of the quote. If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it from him. An investment in knowledge pays the best interest. Benjamin Franklin.
and the amount of
Brock (25:19.47)
The quality of life that education has given to me is amazing. Fast forward from Auckland going over to, I went to the Gold Coast to be a personal trainer, then I went to Sydney and I started. The thing that really separated me as I matured as a personal trainer was pursuing further education because I had more knowledge than the other personal trainers and that was basically it. I was more knowledgeable, I knew more exercises, I knew how to deal with more problems, I knew...
that people had certain imbalances that they weren't aware of at first so we could work on them. When you have more knowledge, your demand is higher than people with less knowledge and that falls into pretty much every industry that you can think of. Would you rather have a dentist that knows a lot or would you rather have a dentist that knows more than that guy? Of course you'd have the person that knows more. And I think in a life where it's so easy to just sit down and be
I want to say nullified. I don't really know what that means, but I'm going to go with it. If you just want to sit there and be nullified by entertainment, you can do that. What's more difficult is sitting down and reading when your spouse is watching TV or something. Or if, even if you live on your own, like I did for many years, instead of just sitting down and watching Netflix or watching your favorite show, maybe you should read, or maybe you should watch a video on upskilling in your career endeavors. And I think that it's a lost art.
becoming more educated, especially when you finish school. One thing that I learned is education does not end when you finish school, it just begins. I can say that school has had much less of an impact than anything I've learned after school. Obviously because I've specialized in fitness, but the things that I've learned that I carry in my life and in my mind and...
in my thoughts and morals that lead me have pretty much come from outside of school. And I'm not saying that school isn't useful. It definitely has its place. What I'm saying is if you think learning ends just because you've graduated from something, it's a big lie. We need to continue to learn pretty much daily. That's something that I pursue and that's something that has helped me just specifically become a personal trainer in demand and become a person.
Brock (27:46.598)
a better personal trainer that gets better results for people. So if you feel like your career isn't going where you want it to go, I think that you could never waste any money on furthering your education because when you spend money on your education, especially for your professional work, that's going to create more demand and help you to get a pay rise or get more clients that will pay you for what you're learning.
Lesson number eight. This is something that I just found interesting. I won't spend too much time on it, but I learned it from Chris Williamson, who's the host of the podcast, Modern Wisdom, which is blowing up. And it was the longer the commute people had to work, the lower the quality of life that they had. They had lower physical activity, lower, I guess, mental health scores. And this just like...
It sounds pretty strange, but when you really think about it, it makes sense. Sitting on a train, sitting on a bus for an hour on the way to work, and then on the way back where you literally just have to sit down and usually people are just scrolling on their phone. Number one, it's really hard to get in things like exercise. I've, I've really struggled with certain clients that have had massive commute times because they might commute for an hour, work for 10 hours, eight to 10 hours. An eight hour day is short these days, but
Let's say they work eight hours and then they commute another hour back. That's 10 hours out of the day. If you sleep eight hours, that's 10 hours out of the day. Eight hours of sleep. You have six hours left. And often there's other things to do. You have, I don't know, a family, you have certain things that you have to do. It's very hard or you have to take work back home and keep working. That's not strange in this day and age. It's really hard to get steps in. It's
especially if you sit on your ass at work on a computer. It's really hard to get workouts in time-wise. It's really hard to see your friends. It's really hard to spend quality time with your family. All these kind of things pay in. And I'm not saying that everyone should move to the city and work in the city.
Brock (29:59.938)
But it does propose the question of, is it more important to live in a more affordable place that's far away or pay a little bit more and be closer to the city where you can actually do things that are better for your life? Train, walk, see your friends, see your family. And I know this kind of sounds privileged, I guess, if you look at it like, oh, maybe you can afford to live in the city, but we can't.
I understand that conversation as well. I'm just saying it's worth a conversation. Or it's worth looking at that time that you're spending commuting and using it in a productive manner. Can you work while you're on the train so you don't have to stay as long at work? So you don't have to stay as long at work? Can you read a book while you're there so you can do your extra learning? You know, there's certain things. Can you answer emails to your side hustle while you're going back and forth?
It's just something to consider. And it makes me think, because my wife and I are thinking about housing and buying property and renting property, all these kind of conversations that we're having as young parents. And it's always an option to buy a bigger house further out. But if that means a bigger commute for certain things, if that means being further away from people and making it harder for them to come visit,
Is it really worth it? Or should we get a smaller place that's closer to things so we can do more and have a higher quality of life from doing these sorts of things outside of sitting in traffic, which Sydney has a lot of? It's just, that's kind of not a lesson, but it could be to you. I know personally, there's a client of mine that is really struggling with this, and they're looking at pretty much potentially ending their job that they're pursuing at the moment and moving out of their parents' house because they...
they did it to save money. So, you know, is that money saved or that extra space that you have because it costs less to live a bit further out? Is it worth it? Is I guess what I'm asking. Lesson number nine, one hot day doesn't make a summer. And this is from James Smith PT. And that's just a, it's a great quote that I like to say to people when they screw their diet up or when they fall out of consistency with their training because
Brock (32:28.518)
One hot day doesn't make a summer, and to answer the rest of the quote, a big string of hot days makes a summer. So if you have one cold day in a summer, it's raining, it's absolutely pissing down, maybe it's even flooding, that doesn't make it a winter. It slightly impacts the coolness of the summer, but really it's still summertime if it's just hot every other day. So if you're consistent with your diet, but you absolutely have a shitter one day and you just...
have a big cheat meal, you get super drunk or, and then you miss training the next day, that does not matter. What matters is the consistency of hot days that make a summer. What matters is the consistency that you follow when you're dieting. What matters is how you get back on the horse and start training. Not one random day. Point number 10. I wanna talk about the stimulus to fatigue ratio. I had Dr. Mike Isretel from Renaissance.
periodization on the podcast. He was episode number 50 and he coined the term, the stimulus to fatigue ratio. And ultimately what it means is getting the most out of the least. And it's a way to assess if you're doing an exercise that is pretty much worth doing high muscle building stimulus, low fatigue, low fatigue for your connective tissues and also low fatigue for your central nervous system. So
A really basic comparison is, okay, let's look at barbell back squats and leg extensions for your quadriceps and muscle building. Okay, so the squats are pretty awesome because you can lift quite a lot of weight and you can squat as the grass and get more knee over toes, more knee flexion, which helps recruit the quads. Awesome. But the amount of fatigue that you get from squatting is quite high because you use a lot of muscles when you're doing it. And when you look at the leg extension...
You're not using much stabilization muscles because you're sitting down on a machine. So there's gonna be less fatigue. You're not spinally loaded. You're not holding weight on your back. More. More stability. Less stabilization muscles firing. So even less fatigue. All you're doing is straightening your legs and then bending your legs. Straightening your legs and bending your legs. The stimulus.
Brock (34:54.494)
for muscle building is very high for a leg extension, because you can really push hard and close to failure more so than you can a barbell back squat, because a barbell back squat, you can't take all the way to complete muscular failure, or else you're gonna get injured or get squashed by the weight. So when you look at these factors, the stimulus to fatigue ratio for building muscle in the quadriceps is better in the leg extension versus the squat. So it's just an idea.
It's a way of analyzing something. And it's not just about working out, but it also applies elsewhere in life. And this is what Dr. Mike and I talked about. It's also your relationships, you know, how much, uh, stimulus are you getting? How much happiness, how much great conversations, how much are they listening? How much fulfillment do you get when you hang out with them versus how fatiguing are they, how toxic are they to you? How, how much.
How negative are they to you? How much do they bring you down? How much do they drag you into their bullshit? Stimulus to fatigue ratio, it's something to think about. Your career, your work. How much stimulus, financially, fulfillment does it bring you versus how much fatigue, how much time, how much energy it saps from you, how much time it takes away from your family? What's the stimulus to fatigue ratio? It's just such a great idea that I'm thankful for that. You know.
Dr. Mike brought up. Lesson number 11 is specific to Jiu-Jitsu, another thing from Dr. Mike, and it's something that he said that really stuck with me, and it was drillers become killers. And drilling is a concept in Jiu-Jitsu where you just drill the same move over and over and over again, like a drill just keeps going round and round and round and round and round. You drill it, you continue to repeat it. And drillers become killers eludes the fact that
The more you practice one thing, the better you get at it. And the better you get at something, the more efficient you're going to become at that. And especially in Jiu-Jitsu, if you're more efficient in one technique than another person, you're going to get that person, you're going to be in a better position, or you're going to submit them. And drillers become killers is just a real great quote that speaks excellence. Become really good at things.
Brock (37:22.65)
specifically jiu-jitsu. If you want to get better at jiu-jitsu, drill. Keep putting yourself in difficult positions and escape from that one place so that when you get to that specific place you know how to get out. When someone's trying their hardest or just in a flow roll, you know the steps. And this is true with anything. It's true at work. If you practice being in high pressure situations you're going to be better and you're going to develop.
a more successful technique to deal with those high pressure situations. Drillers become killers. That was another golden nugget from Dr. Mike. Lesson number 12, nothing in the world is heavier than an unmade decision. This is a paraphrase from Alex Homozi, but it's also talks about the Zygarnik effect, which is, or the Zygarnik loop effect where they talk to waiters in a restaurant and they were walking around
And if you said, what table, table number 76, what's on their food? You know, they would tell you they have a side of roast potatoes, they have a medium rare sirloin, they have a carbonara steak and a cheeseburger for the kid, right? And they would know everything, da da. As soon as they closed the table, the table left, it was in, and then no one was there. If you asked them the same question, they would forget.
And that's because the loop had been closed. But while the loop was open, they were retaining that information and they had that mental space in their mind taken up by what was there. But as soon as it was closed, as soon as the loop was closed, the table was closed, everything was paid for, they got their tip, whatever, they forgot about it. And this can be applied to making decisions.
And I guess I'll just say, make decisions fast. Not in a stupid way, but the more time you take to decide on something, the more mental space it takes up and the more you carry around with you. So let's just imagine a waiter.
Brock (39:31.786)
and the tables never close. And they just go home with all that information, right? They have less capacity for other things. And they're still thinking about that cheeseburger, that carbonara, that sirloin steak. It's still in their mind, so they have less space for other things. So when we're deciding to make decisions, I've seen this a lot with different people, the more decisions they hesitate on, the more flustered they are, the more...
their reign is the less they can think clearly because they're just carrying so much in their mind so make more decisions make faster decisions often a faster made decision even if it's wrong this depends on the situation is better than a correct decision made too late
And to come back to what I was saying before about do more, learn more, lazy hands make for poverty, diligent hands bring wealth, that earlier point that I was talking about, that was because I made decisions pretty fast. And that doesn't mean I could have made better decisions, but the decisions that I did make were dealt with and I learned along the way. Something to think about. Lesson number 13. To make something seem easier, do something double as hard.
And I think this is what has really popularized ice baths. Joe Rogan's idea that doing hard shit when you first wake up pretty much turns into a man, helps you become a life conquering machine. And I think he's right. I think that doing hard stuff really does lift your ability to do other things. It's great with jujitsu. I'm getting choked out by other people.
You know, do you think I'm scared of, of recording a podcast? Do you think I'm scared of recording an Instagram reel? Do you think I'm scared of, uh, of lifting weights in a workout? Man, I've just been choked out. I've been fighting other men throughout the week, fully grown, way better developed technique men at jujitsu and they're smashing me. And it comes down to this quote. The hardest thing that you've ever done is the hardest thing that you've ever done. Or the hardest thing that
Brock (41:52.926)
you're faced is the hardest thing that you're faced. You only know what you know. So if you're struggling to do something, I challenge you to do something double as hard because it will make it very possible to do the thing that you're procrastinating over.
Um, lesson number 14, put your weights back. How you do anything is how you do everything is a quote that I live by. And if you don't put your, put your weights back, I don't think you can achieve much in life. You're messy. You're unorganized. You're not a team player. You're rushed. You're unprofessional. It says a lot about you as a person and
If you hold yourself to a higher moral standard, I believe you can go further in life. And this once again is coming from a 30 year old. I'm not a 60 year old war veteran that seems so wise and everything, but I've spent a lot of time in gyms and I've spent a lot of hours on the gym floor. And the people that put their weights back have their shit together. The people that don't, they don't have their shit together.
I can't say I've had a client that has never put their weights back. And I say that because a client of a personal trainer, if you zoom out of personal training, it's a luxury service. It's quite expensive for what you're getting in terms of it being an hour of working with a personal trainer. Now, there is a ton of value that you get within that, but from outside looking in, you're paying anywhere between $50 to $200. $250 an hour, right?
Anywhere between that. If you have extra money to spend on your fitness like that, you must have done something right in life. So I guess I'm using my clients as an example of, they have their shit together, they put their weights back, they can afford a personal trainer. If you can't afford a personal trainer, maybe you should look at putting your weights back. Not because it keeps a tidy gym. That is a massive benefit that helps gym managers, helps personal trainers, and makes gym members' life much easier. But.
Brock (44:08.978)
it also will make your life better because it will hold you to a better standard. Dotting your I's, crossing your T's, making sure you're working all of your hours, making sure you're sending all of those emails, making sure you're proofreading things, making sure you're preparing for meetings, making sure you're on time. It all starts with putting your weights back. It all starts with how you do anything is how you do everything. Lesson number 15, consume less, create more. This is something that I still struggle with these days and
It's a lesson that I'm definitely applying, and it's about consuming less content.
There are a million podcasts that you could listen to every single day. There are a million people that you could follow on Instagram that you would love every single day. The challenge is not doing it. How much information is too much information is the golden question here. And how much can we actually retain is the biggest thing. I think that our life was much better. Personally, this is just me reminiscing my childhood. I just feel like it was much, much better.
when I wasn't consuming so much content and I was actually able to think for myself. Sometimes when I find myself listening to podcasts or listening to a lot of audio books, even though I'm devouring a ton of golden information, sometimes I'm not able to retain it. And then I actually wonder what that time is actually worth now, if I feel like I'm taking in more information, but I'm not actually retaining it.
Is it just a waste of time? Would it have been better if I was just in silence, really dwelling on my own thoughts and being able to develop critical thinking?
Brock (45:50.862)
Sure. Look, I've listened to a ton of different pieces of content that have inspired me through life. I remember listening to a podcast from Andy Frizzella. His podcast is the MFCEO. He runs a company called First Form and he was talking about email lists. That next morning I started an email list. So content can be super motivational. It can be super life changing because that email list for me has brought me clients and has brought a ton of my clients. Also a lot of, um,
a lot of motivation to continue training, but also a lot of retention with training with me because they get motivation from me as their personal trainer or just from, uh, from someone that they want to learn from. And so I'm not taking away from consuming content. I just think we need to ask the question, how much content is too much content? If we scroll on Instagram for one hour, how much are we actually going to remember from that? If we listen to two podcasts a day, which seems pretty reasonable these days.
How much are we retaining from that? And how much of our own thinking are we doing? The more I think about the amounts of content that we're consuming as a population, as society, the more I begin to think about how unique it is for someone to actually develop their own thoughts. And when you look at podcasters and how much great value they're putting out there that you're listening to, how much do you think they listen to podcasts? Do you think that they listen to podcasts the same amount as you? Or are they doing half?
or less than half, or completely zero, because they're working on their own thoughts. So it comes back down to the question of who do you want to be? Do you want to be someone that just consumes content and is a bit of a sheep, let's say? Or do you want to be a bit of a shepherd and work on developing your own thoughts? And when you think of a shepherd...
A shepherd is, uh, is leading other people. A shepherd, I see a shepherd without headphones on listening to a podcast, being a bit of a stoic, no headphones, being out there with nature, developing their own thoughts. And when you look at a sheep surrounded by a lot of people following the crowd, listening to other shepherds.
Brock (47:58.794)
It's something to think about. It's definitely something that I've changed in my life. I used to listen to a ton of things, but now I'm kind of embracing silence and I feel like it's better for my brain, especially when I'm running this podcast and coaching, you know, thousands of people to really help be the best person that I can be and be the best coach that I can be in terms of getting the results for them. Uh, lesson number 16. And this is a bit of a big idea. Uh, 90 year old reverse engineer is what I wrote down, but
the entire concept, hold on, let me get a drink first.
Brock (48:40.206)
So the entire concept of this 90 year old reverse engineer thing is, I want you to picture yourself as a 90 year old. You're still alive, you survived.
What do you think you regret? Just think about it.
And there are a ton of great videos on YouTube you can watch of old people sharing their regrets. To give you an insight if you can't think for yourself. What do you think you remember? What do you think you've forgotten? What do you think is important to you? And what do you think isn't important to you?
And when you look at yourself as a 90 year old, you really begin to sieve out the bullshit.
Do you care about the clothes that you wear? Do you care about what car you drove? Because at 90, you probably ain't driving, let's be honest. You probably can't even see that far. What, you know, what house did you live in? What brand was your couch? What size was your TV?
Brock (49:51.146)
All these questions and these things that we worry about, these things that we stress out about and we think people care about. When you talk to 90 year olds, and I went over to New Zealand this year recently with my wife and my daughter and my family to actually go to my Nana's 90th, when you spend time with older people, you soon begin to understand what is important and you begin to understand what they care about.
And then you begin to understand these things that are timeless, these things that never expire in value to these people. Things like relationships, things like family, uh, things like homes. And I say homes because I think homes are different to houses. Homes have a warm feeling of family and friends and togetherness. And houses are, are just bricks and roofs.
Brock (50:51.906)
Memories, moments, vacations, holidays, milestones. These things matter. And the more I've been thinking about this, the more I've kind of stepped away from things that I thought were really cool and still think that are really cool. And I know that a 90 year old is way different to a 30 year old in terms of like, like put it like this, at a 90 year old age, you're grateful if you can just stand up and walk.
If I changed my goals and said, well, as a 90 year old, I just want to be able to stand up and walk. So today, instead of lifting weights, I'm just gonna practice walking, standing up. Or I'm just not gonna do anything because I can already stand up and walk. That's not smart. Because even though that's what I need to do when I'm 90, my goals are different because I'm 30. I can do way more than that. I can squat 150 kilos. I can bench press 150 kilos. I can...
deadlift 200 kilos if I want.
It's important to understand that goals should be changing when you're 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, but I think it's important to reverse engineer your life as a 90 year old to look back to see if the things that I'm worrying about now are even going to matter as I get older and when should I start sieving them out or do I even need to think about it? If I'm going to buy a car, should I buy one that's $100,000 more expensive and I take out a bigger loan?
And that means that I can't buy a bigger home for people to come over and create memories with. Should I do that? Just because it's going to impress my friends or it's going to look really cool online when I post a photo standing beside that car with the red bow on it. Is that going to be important when I'm 90 years old? Am I gonna remember, oh man, I remember when I stood beside that photo and I posted it. I can still remember the amounts of likes that I got on that day and I'll never forget it. It just makes my heart warm thinking about it.
Brock (52:54.91)
I don't think any 90 year old is going to say that.
So reverse engineering your life as a 90 year old, I think is a really great concept in terms of sieving out what's important and what's not. Lesson number 17 is the doom scroll toll. And this is something that I think I coined, well I did for me, I never heard anyone talk about it. And it's just the toll that doom scrolling has on you. And it's more so at nighttime, it really eats into your sleep. A lot of people will go, oh, it's bedtime.
better grab my phone and just lie on my bed and just, you know, you got your hands in front of you, you're doing that. I've done it, right? I've fallen asleep, phone hit me in the nose. I wake up, put my phone down and go to sleep. I've just been scrolling and I'm so tired that I just fall asleep, the phone hits me in the face. The doom scroll told, we're all guilty of it, but I challenge you to get over it. I've really stopped now. When I'm ready to sleep, boom, put it away. I'm not gonna lie there on my phone and scroll through things, I put it on charge and put it away, and then I just.
Go to sleep. When you look at the amounts of things that you digest, once again, coming back to how much content is too much content, what do you actually remember when you're just about to go to bed? Not much. You're looking for more of a quick laugh than you are to learn something. And I just think that with the doom scroll toll, what is that toll? It's being more tired the next day, which means being less productive in your day-to-day life.
less productivity at your workplace, less energy for your loved ones when you get home from work because you're so smashed and you just want to go to sleep, less excitement, less zeal for life, these things. That may be okay to get by, but long-term, it creates a more pessimistic human being with a lower quality of life. And I think that because it's so new, we don't really know how to deal with the phone. And I'm not an expert at it.
Brock (54:58.242)
But for someone with a pretty significant following, I spend a lot less time on my phone than you would think. When I'm with my friends and my family, it's down on the table. At nighttime, when babies are sleeping and I'm with my wife, I have to post my stories, I have to post my content, so I'm on it then, yes. But when I'm with my daughter and it's just her and I, I'm not on my phone. When I'm with my friends and I haven't seen them in ages and all our families together, I'm not on my phone at all. And then you see people.
And this kind of grinds my gears and I'm, this isn't coming from a privileged place of, of having a following and whatever. And also, this following has taken a lot of work so shut up. But when people have like no following, no business on social media, and it's just for, for funsies, they're at family gatherings, they're at Christmas, they're at a birthday, they're at a wedding and they're just scrolling on their phone. I'm like, mate.
What the hell are you watching that's so important? You're missing out on these memories and these moments. I just think we don't know how to deal with it.
But I think you'll never regret putting your phone down.
But you could always regret having your phone in your hand. Something to think about anyway.
Brock (56:17.214)
Number 18, what is measured can be progressed. This is a lesson that you can take from calories, you can take from measuring your body fat, you can take from measuring your finances. What is measured can be progressed. It's just a principle. If you're not tracking things, it's really hard to improve it. If you're saving up for a house, but you're not even looking at your bank account and how much money you have, what the hell are you doing? You don't know if you're getting more money or losing money.
If you're not measuring your body fat, but your goal is to get to 10% body fat, how much body fat do you have? How much body fat do you need to lose by X amount to date? Measure that stuff. It keeps you accountable, so it keeps you interested, and it keeps you wanting to show up, but it also gives you data and statistics to follow so you actually know if you're getting better or not. And when we look at the motivational cycle, action. Action gets results. Results gets motivation. Motivation.
leads into taking more action. When we look at the cycle going round and round and round and round and round.
If we're measuring things, when we take action and we see that it gets results, that's that first part of that motivational cycle, action to results. And when we see that result, that result gives us motivation. And then we got two thirds of the motivational cycle going. And then when we get that motivation, that leads to more action because we're motivated. So now it's that motivational cycle repeated and we keep going round and round and round and round.
And something that I've found with people that I've trained over the years as a personal trainer, the more that you stay accountable to your coach, the better results you get. What is measured can be progressed. And I'm measuring everything. I'm changing things if I need to. I'm updating macros and calories and substituting exercises if I need to here and there checking in. And if you're not doing that, you're probably not making progress.
Brock (58:19.114)
Moving on, this is just a quote that I love that hit me really hard when I heard it. Be a warrior in the garden, not a gardener in a war. It speaks for itself.
And I think it just means be ready, get ready.
Brock (58:35.286)
Like what do you want to be? This isn't about doing Jiu-Jitsu and becoming a fighter. Could be. But it's more so about being ready. And if you are put in a hard place, you can overcome it. And the way that you do that, to come back to a quote that I said before, drillers become killers. You gotta practice that. You have to practice being in war. And literally, if we look at Jiu-Jitsu.
doing roles, getting better at technique, that is getting ready for war, so that when I compete, or when I fight someone on the street maybe, I don't know.
If I have to. I'm not going to be a gardener in a war. I'm going to be a warrior in a garden. I'm going to have the tools to win.
That quote's awesome. Number 20, try to do something, not be someone.
All right, here we go.
Brock (59:32.598)
In 2019, there was a survey that was completed to see what jobs kids aspired to have when they grew up. The Harris Poll survey was what it was called. Asked 3000 kids aged 8 to 12 across three different countries, USA, UK and China, to choose from five professions to answer which they wanted to be when they grew up. Astronaut, musician, professional athlete, teacher, or a vlogger slash YouTuber.
Though the top choice among kids in the US and the UK was vlogger slash YouTuber, 56% of kids in China said they wanted to be an astronaut. There are plenty of things that I have to say about this, but the main extrapolation that I have for US and UK children is that the majority of the kids growing up just want to be famous. That's just a little excerpt from my motivational mailing list, my email list that I send out every week. If you want to join that, I share three motivational emails per week.
You can unsubscribe at any time. It's just a dose of motivation that hits your inbox that keeps you going. And us, try and sell you on some programs every now and then. Let you know when a sale's coming. Let you know when I've recorded an awesome podcast. But other than that, you can unsubscribe at any time. So if you are interested in receiving cool facts like this during the week to kick your ass into gear, then you can hit the link in the description. But yeah.
A lot of people want to be vlogger, YouTubers, and that's not true just for children. It's true for a lot of people. They want to be famous. But I think the problem with this is people just want to be famous. They don't actually want to be good at anything. It's such a, it's such a troubling time. We want to be good. We want to be good at something. And from that come fame, but to try and be famous for nothing, just to be, just for fame sake, I think leads to a lot of potential downsides.
And we know extensively that social media has a lot of downsides. Mental health, self-esteem, bullying. You know, I've received, man, a video of mine recently got just under a million views on Facebook. I had fully grown men with three children swearing at me.
Brock (01:01:48.778)
If I didn't have thick skin, I'd be a mess right now. Swearing at me, telling me my career is this and that. If you, just, and some people having no reason, just if you, just swearing at me. And I'm just like, oh, okay. But if you're just trying to be famous, just because you want to be famous, to be very honest, it's pretty shit. And it's not going to last long. People don't want to follow someone just because they're famous. Famous for what?
Do something. I think it's a much better endeavor with your life, especially if you're young listening to this, but even as an adult, to try to be good at something. Try to do something.
try to become an expert at something and become well-known from that, not just from trying to be well-known. Just jumping on a reality TV show just because you want to get eyes on you is not a very good idea. This is someone who's been on a reality TV show saying this, so listen up. I've been on there. I've been told in front of the whole of Australia...
Brock (01:02:56.219)
You're going home. You're eliminated. You suck at singing pretty much. So I know what it's like to be surrounded by people who are very excited to have eyes on them. And when you look at people that are actually doing something, not just trying to be famous, they have a longer career, they have a longer longevity of their work, and they also usually have a more interesting personality because they're actually good at something and they stick around. They have a sustainable...
work life.
Okay, moving on. Lesson number 21.
Brock (01:03:34.914)
Fulfillment versus happiness. And this is just a quick idea that I want to touch on. And a quote that I had thought of is fulfillment is happiness in motion. And I think that a lot of people are trying to pursue happiness. And a lot of people say, I want to be happy. Yay. Happy. And to me,
Brock (01:04:02.338)
I don't know if I want that. My perspective might change as I get older, but I want to be fulfilled. I don't want to be happy. I feel that people that pursue happiness is pursuing something that's stagnant. I feel like happiness is stagnant and fulfillment is happiness in motion. That's where the quote came from. I think when you look at someone that's fulfilled, they have that kind of fire in their belly. They have that look in their eyes. They, they have that smile. They have that zeal.
They want to play. They want to learn. They want to talk. They want to listen. They want to build things. And when you look at people that are happy, they are stagnant. They're chilled. They're happy. They're relaxed. Easygoing. Just shrug things off. And there's value in that. I'm not trying to say I don't want people to be happy. I love it. But I think the bigger brother to that.
is fulfillment. And I think that that's a much more worthwhile pursuit with your time and with your life. To be fulfilled, find a career that means something to you. Find a hobby that really gets you going. Find a soulmate or a girlfriend, a wife, a husband, a boyfriend, whatever you want to have. Find one that really makes you a better person, that elevates you, that challenges you.
not just someone that gives you everything that you want. Because no one, I don't know, I don't, it's my opinion, I don't think people want that. Gets very boring, very quickly.
Brock (01:05:47.958)
Just, yeah, try to pursue something that gives you momentum, that gives you that fire in your belly, that keeps you kind of committed to something. I just think it's a much more worthy pursuit than happiness. A 22, mental diet. We worry about our physical diet a lot. Everyone's on a new diet every Monday, but I think one thing that we don't really worry about or are concerned about is our mental diet.
What books we read, what podcasts we listen to, what conversations we're having, what sort of people we're having around us, what sort of Instagram reels are bombarding us. And we need to be careful about this stuff to make it a bit more serious because there's something called the availability bias, and I wanna explain what it means. The availability bias is making decisions based on the quickest available information that we have. What we consume directly correlates with this
with the decisions that we make. So the availability biases, like let's say,
Brock (01:06:55.958)
You know, I've just read a book and it said that calories don't count. Uh, you know, what matters is insulin, right? For fat loss. And then someone's like, Hey man, I'm just like, I want to lose way, but I don't really know where to start. The availability bias is going to kick in because the quickest, most available piece of information that I have is from the book that I've just recently read. So I'm going to say, you got to manage your hormones. You got to worry about insulin.
which is not correct, but the availability bias impacts us all. And that's why we have to be careful what we're reading. We have to be very careful of our mental diet, just like we are with our physical diet. It's just something to be aware of because the information that's just fresh in our brain, that we keep reading, that we keep digesting, it kind of does brainwash us into the state.
that when people ask us questions, we're going to draw on the information that we've been consuming. And if we're consuming BS, we're going to regurgitate BS. We know a lot of people that talk bullshit because they listen to a lot of bullshit and watch a lot of bullshit. That's why it's important to look at what we're listening to, what we're reading. And if you're listening to this podcast, you're making a very good start. Lesson number 23. Take longer rest periods.
Um, and this is, um, I guess a gym term that's kind of hidden in this thing of, of delayed gratification. So if you take longer rest periods, you get more quality work in. Okay. So if you take less rest periods, like a lot of people like to do, a lot of women love to take short rest periods because they get more in a shorter amounts of time, and I know that they may be busy moms and they want to get in and get out, but they also want to have an elevated heart rate. It makes them feel like they're doing more. But.
If you take longer rest periods, you are doing more because you're going to be lifting more weight. So that's going to lead to more progressive overload, more muscle being built, more strength being created. And when you skip rest periods, okay, you may sweat more, you may potentially burn a little bit more calories because you've squeezed more in with the time that you have. But sometimes doing more is not achieving more. There's a very big difference. So take longer rest periods. So that is the principle for fitness, right? But it also applies to
Brock (01:09:20.602)
to life when we think about delayed gratification and hyperbolic discounting, which is just like.
It's pretty much the same thing. Delayed gratification. Things take time. We have to wait.
And just like the marshmallow test kind of proved, do you want one marshmallow now or two later? People often taking the quick marshmallow instead of waiting and getting more. And it's like rest periods, but it's also like in life when we wait for more, all right? Okay, so should we take a job now or should we study and get a higher paid job after that? People will decide, I'll just take the job now. And maybe that's not the best example because, you know, I haven't done university study and...
You know, I'm doing okay, but there are things that require delayed gratification, saving up for a house, um, saving up for a holiday. I just, I just think that so many people have lost the art of delayed gratification and, and being patient. It starts with your rest periods. Take longer rest periods, achieve more. Don't just do more moving on.
Point number 24, change your thoughts and you change your world. This is a quote from Norman Vincent Peale from a book, The Power of Positive Thinking. I read this book when I was in Auckland like I alluded to earlier and you know when I was 12 I lost my mother and when I was in Auckland I was struggling. I told you I was crying myself to sleep most nights. I was living in a big house of people that I didn't know. I was working my ass off 6am to 8pm, working two or three jobs, no real time for myself.
Brock (01:11:04.442)
Social media wasn't important to me at the time. And there was no podcast, there was no anything. I was reading books to try and create that nice environment around my head and feel like I was doing better, but it was a rough time. But this book really saved me. It helped me, I had some pretty dark thoughts. When I was 20, I had like a midlife crisis, a quarter life crisis, I call it. I was like crying on the floor, melting down, didn't know what I was going to do. I just ended my music.
career if you can even call it that and then I was like should I do fitness? Should I do fitness? Who am I? What am I? I did all these personality tests. I talked to all these people and I said what would you say my three best strengths were? And I was asking them these questions like this. I was trying to figure out who the hell I was and what I was going to do and if I was even good at anything and if I should even bother with trying to do something special with my life.
But this quote and this book really, really saved me. And I'm optimist, I do believe in hope and I do believe in being positive and I think it really does take you far. And not to be cheesy, but I do think that when you think positively, it's not just a woo thing. I think it does help you have a different vision to other people that live the same life. If you live the same life as someone but have a positive perspective.
Good stuff's going to come out of it. If you live that same life and have a negative perspective, you probably won't end up doing anything meaningful. Change your thoughts and you change your world. Number 25, I guess I just wanted to put this in here. Marry the right woman. Because I've seen a lot of people be in relationships that literally just eat their life up, and it ruins their life. They don't have hobbies, they don't have time for themselves, they don't have...
Like there's no zeal, there's no energy, there's no fire in their eyes, there's no yay. There's like, there's no, there's none of that. They're just kind of like being absorbed by this relationship. They stop hanging out with their friends. They stop doing things that make them happy. And When you think about marrying the right woman or even just going on a date or being with someone, they fall in love with who you are. And then over time, if you change to be whatever they want you to be.
Brock (01:13:24.182)
You're no longer that person that they love. Right? You ever think of that? So be who you are. Stand up for things that you want to do and that believe make you you. Not in a selfish way, not in a way that doesn't allow for compromise because relationship is, you know, a big part of being in a relationship is compromise or meeting in the middle or.
or a better way to put it is like doing things that they want to do, but then them also doing things that you want to do. So you both remain happy. Um, but yeah, Stay true to who you are. Cause remember they fell in love with you, not the you that they wanted.
uh... number twenty six we're getting there how about the time
Brock (01:14:13.406)
All right, probably five to 10 more minutes. Number 26 is planned to the end and this is.
Brock (01:14:24.546)
I think it was Law 29 in the book 48 Laws of Power. And it was talking about business and power and planning to the end and making sure that, you know, the thing that you're going for, kind of like that 90 year old reverse engineering idea I was talking about earlier. Working your way back from there, plan to the end. But this is more about, I wanna put a spin on it and talk about alcohol and drugs and how you spend your time and the things that you do in your spare time.
and even going into the gym, what do you want to achieve at the end of this?
Like, I don't touch alcohol, I don't touch drugs, because I've seen the end result for a lot of people that have been close to me, or that are close to me, let's say, a lot of family, let's say previous friends, some distant family, and just people that I've seen in my life, I don't even know who they are. But when I look at, I've seen the end of what alcohol can do. I've seen the end of what drugs can do to people's life.
I've seen the end of what prioritizing business too much and not your family enough. I've seen the end of that and it's not very pretty. And that's why I don't do those things. I don't touch alcohol. I have before. I'm not trying to stand on a pedestal on top of a mountain and be glorified, but I've just seen it all and that's why I don't touch it. I've seen the dark side of things. Now there is another side of things. There is balance. There is moderation.
There is discovery, there is fun moments and memories to, to be had under these kind of principles, but, um, yeah, plan to the end. If you're drinking every weekend, why are you doing that? What's the end result of that? If you're taking drugs every now and then, okay. What's the end result of that? Does it turn into an addiction? If you're training.
Brock (01:16:26.59)
What do you want your end results to look like? Do you want to be 10% body fat? Do you want to be a competitive bodybuilder or do you just want to be able to stand up and walk as a 90 year old? What do you want? Think of it and work back, plan to the end with everything, with your career, what do you want? Because at the moment, like you could just be growing and trying to grow and trying to grow like I am, you know, you got Instagram going, podcasts, YouTube, this and that, da da, what's the end of that? What is the end?
Plan to the end. It's a great question to ask yourself. Number 27 is pretty simple, and it's say hi to people on the street and in life. Say morning, say evening. We could all agree that we want to live in a society that is kind, and this really helps create that. And the more I see the younger generation, it makes me sound old, but 12 year olds, 14 year olds, 16 year olds, 18 year olds.
The less I see communication skills, and I think that's due to the rise of phones and the rise of technology because they're interacting through phones, through Snapchat, through Instagram, DMs, and not face-to-face. And I think, you know, they're missing out on a very important life of skill to life, which is dealing with real people. So say hi to people, man. Smile at people. I used to play this game, and I still do, but I started it.
a few years ago and every time I'd jump into an elevator and someone was in there, I would say hi. Every time I would check out at a grocery store, I would try and talk to them, just for fun. No other reason. I wasn't trying to get someone's number. I wasn't trying to get them as a client. I just really wanted to know how their day was and I wanted to get better at talking, at maybe telling a lighthearted joke, maybe giving them a compliment, saying I like their name, saying, that was the fastest checkout I've ever been in. Ha ha ha, you know?
something, it's lame, but these are skills that I think we can use. Number one, it improves people's day. Number two, it improves your communication skills. And number three, it just kind of adds a bit of excitement to your life. Um, and that's one thing I loved about living in Christchurch is people said, Hey, all the time, that's where I got it from. But I've, I've lived in bigger cities like Auckland, well, bigger compared to Christchurch, Auckland and Sydney, and people don't really say hi. It's weird.
Brock (01:18:50.73)
Like it's another human being right in front of you. Say hi. Something I'll never understand. Number 28, technique is what matters. And this is a revelation from Jujitsu because I've versed smaller people on the mats and they absolutely smash me because their technique is better. And it's also reinforced by resistance training. I'm stronger than other people that are bigger than me because my technique's better than them. Okay, I've lifted weights for 15 years. That helps.
But better technique is always better for anything, right? And when we look at copywriting or recording videos or talking and the vocabulary that you have, better technique is always better. So I want to encourage you to, because I've fallen into this, I've fallen into just doing, doing. As you can see, that's quite a motto in my life. Just doing. Do this, do that, do this. I just, I like to go, go.
sometimes at the expense of good technique. And what Jujitsu has really reinforced with me is technique matters, doing things correctly. And that's that balance of working smarter, not just working hard. So that's something to think about. Number 29, put yourself in other people's shoes. I've definitely developed this a little bit more as I've become a parent and seen my daughter be so vulnerable, so cute.
And you know, I've seen other parents be in super vulnerable, vulnerable positions and I've seen how hard life can be. I had a pretty hard life when I was 12 years old, just in a certain moment, when my mom passed away, that was hard. And I think the more you understand how life can be pretty shit to other people, the more you understand to have a bit of empathy for other people. It's something that I've really developed as a coach too. And, um,
seeing your parents get old too, you kind of begin to see life a bit differently. And I used to be a bit judgmental, something I can still work on. I used to really just like throw out things like, oh, that guy's a pussy and he's just a bitch. I would say that all the time, but like, you know, I just, I'll just think in my head, man, stop being a pussy. Just do this and do that and just work harder. I'll just say all these kinds of things. But man.
Brock (01:21:19.278)
I think I've grown up a little bit more and you know, this podcast is to shed light on my personal experience. And I think that we have to really understand what people are going through. I still struggle with the whole thing. Like when people are like, I'm so anxious and anxiety and stuff. And I'm, you know, I used to think a lot more like, just do it. Just take action. Just do, um, you know, get over it. You're only anxious because you're not taking action. You need to stop procrastinating and just do.
And I still believe a lot of that, but I also have this other side of me that's trying to say, man, if only you understood where they're coming from, if only you have had anxiety before, which I haven't, then you would understand.
So I guess this is a long-winded way of saying have empathy for others. You don't know what people have gone through. Some people won't share it. Maybe it's embarrassing. Maybe they're afraid to look small. But have empathy for others. I think you never lose when you do that. It's never a losing game. But I think it is a bit of a losing game when you just are kind of like definitively writing people off like I have in the past. Number 30.
And this is along the lines of the previous point that I just said, spend more time with old people and kids. Um, with old people, they don't give a shit about what you think. They will just say whatever the hell is on their mind. It's beautiful. Same with kids. They'll say, you look funny today. Your eyes look weird or like you look fat in that. They'll just tell you whatever the hell you're thinking. Um,
And it's refreshing to be around truth. Um, but also as I was talking about earlier in the podcast with old people, you understand regrets, you understand what really matters and with kids. So I think what we can learn from kids is, is just their passion for life. There's a lot of talk in the Bible around the, the excitement, the youth, um, the kind of like twinkle in their eye, the zeal that they have, like this playfulness.
Brock (01:23:28.258)
this creativity that they have and then as you get an adult it kind of gets beaten out of you. You fail a few times and you might work a job that you hate and it just kind of like beats it out of you. To be around kids is really refreshing. All they want to do is play. All they want to do is have fun. I think we need more of that in our life and to balance that out with hanging out with old people, I think we can just learn a lot from like what actually matters. I think we have it so twisted. We're looking at people's highlight reels. We're trying to create our own highlight reels so our life looks better than it actually is.
We're trying to look like we earn more money than we actually do. We're trying to look like we're in better shape than we actually are by editing photos. Ah, I don't think old people care about that. I don't think kids care about that. My daughter doesn't care what I wear. My daughter doesn't care how much I can bench press. My daughter doesn't care what car we drive. She cares that I wake up and play with her. She cares that, you know, I feed her when she needs to be fed. She cares that I give her water when she wants to.
when she wants to drink, she cares that I pick her up when she wants to be picked up. She cares that I'm there to read her books when she wants me to read her books. And I think this is the shit that matters. To get real at the end of this podcast, I think that so many people are focused on shit that doesn't matter.
Impressing other people that they don't even know with money that they don't even have a Lot of people doing that and to be really honest it pisses me off It leads to man, I saw this thing the other day and I Just said I was trying not to be judgmental
Brock (01:25:09.17)
I'll share it. There was a kid at the playground that I was at with my daughter, and we were spending some time together, and she was just filming her kid the whole time. And maybe it was, look, and this is the whole empathy thing, I'm gonna get this out of the way. Maybe the dad wasn't there because he was in hospital, he just had a car crash, I don't know, and he wanted to see videos of their kid happy. But she was just playing with the kid just to film it.
And then when she'd like filmed it, da da, cool, like, you know, put their kid on this thing and you push back and forward. And then she'd just film it and be like, hey, smile, smile. And then when she got the video, she just stopped and then just like walked away. Like literally just walked away. And she did that two or three times. And then when the kid was playing, she was just on her phone like scrolling stuff and, oh, I don't know, man. That just really pisses me off. Like trying to look.
trying to look happy and stuff online and, oh, look at my kid so happy, but like you're not spending time with that kid. So like, what does that kid feel? I don't know. I'm getting a bit depressed at the end of this podcast. Anyway, let's wrap up with something optimistic. The last point, point number 31 is the flea experiment. So, and I don't know if this experiment is true or not, but there's definitely a moral lesson to take out of this. When you put a flea in a jar and leave the lid open,
they would jump out depending on how high the jar is of course but if okay look if you're watching this on YouTube you'll be able to see what my hands doing so if the jar is this high a flea could probably jump out right so if you put a flea for those you that aren't listening on YouTube if you put a flea in a jar
underneath a height that they can jump to, they will jump out of the jar. If you put the lid on for three days and just leave them and then take the lid off, they can no longer jump out.
Brock (01:27:13.882)
And this is an idea called learned helplessness. And.
It's more so just a, I guess I just want to share this because it helps you to understand the limits that you put on yourself. And the flea that can jump out of the jar is you with no limitation and you with hope and you with positivity and you with, with motivation. Um, and sometimes life puts a jar on us like me, my mom passed away or like me.
I moved to Auckland with no friends, slept on a small bed beside a dishwasher, couldn't sleep. And then I moved to a place that had like cockroaches in it. I remember waking up to cockroaches on my body. It was disgusting, man. And then, you know, having that, that meltdown when I was 20, changing careers, doing all this kind of stuff. Like sometimes life puts a jar on top of you. And then when it's, you have to understand that it's no longer there.
It might be there for a day, a week, a month, a year, but it's not there for the remainder of your life. So I wanted to share this to give you hope to take the lid off the top of your life and just like jump out. Because once you're out of that jar, you can understand that the world is huge and you can achieve a lot. And that's what I want you to understand and take away from this. When there is something on top of you, it's not there forever. And you still have the ability, like you did before, to live a life that is full.
to come back to being like a kid, anything is possible. Anything is possible. And when that lid is gone, you can achieve anything. But the first step is the hardest, and that's trying to believe that you can actually jump out of the jar because you're so used to jumping up and falling down and falling down and failing and failing and failing. But one day that jar is going to be gone and you need to be ready to jump out.
Brock (01:29:12.386)
Those are the 31 lessons that I wanted to share as a 30 year old. I hope that helped. I'll see you in the next podcast.
Brock (01:17.893)
How did everything start for you? What got you interested in writing this book on how to control your cancer risk?
John (01:28.03)
Yeah, really what I've been struck by is that, you know, we see cancer still a significant cause of death around the world, despite all these amazing advances that we seem to have. So I really wanted to help explain to people what they could do to reduce their risk. Because I'll tell you, Brock, a lot of people think it's all genetics, right? So if I don't know someone in my family that had cancer...
I don't have to worry about it. And that's not true. But there's really a good amount of things that you can do on a daily basis that can reduce your risk.
Brock (02:10.453)
Yeah, and that's what I really want to unpack. And I've heard you say on other interviews and podcasts that your genetics is around about give or take 20% of the risk and, and the rest is in your hands and you can control to some, you know, to varying degrees. But I think that story in itself is impactful because, you know, I, I guess I'm very interested in this topic and I mentioned this to you as well. I lost my mother to cancer when I was very young.
And as I grow older and now as a father, it kind of puts things in the back of my mind. What's the chance of this? What's the chance of that? You know, how, how long do I have left? Have I passed on anything to, to my daughter? There's all of these questions. So to actually know that majority of the work is coming down to me. That's very empowering. And, and I believe other people that have.
experiences where I'm not sure it may be an experience like mine where it's in the family or a friend or even their own journey. I actually just heard yesterday from a friend that I was working out with, a friend of ours that was a personal trainer. She's just recently, you know, found out that she has cancer as well and it just kind of pops out of nowhere and it's very frightening but to know that we can make a difference is really, really impactful and you know
You've talked about previously before the importance of sleep, the importance of nutrition, the importance of exercise and lifestyle, the importance of looking after your mental health. And I just want to kind of unpack each pillar as we kind of move through, beginning with nutrition because we eat every single day. And I like to look at from a fat loss, body composition, personal training perspective, what I say to my clients is every meal is an opportunity.
John (03:52.46)
Sure.
Brock (04:06.893)
to move towards your goals or further away from your goals. And, sorry, you go.
John (04:10.038)
Yeah. And.
No, no. Really what I try to get people to think about is food is medicine. It's really as powerful as a prescription drug. And when you start to think about it that way, it really helps you make that decision. Should I have a bag of potato chips? Or should I have an orange? And a lot of times, people think, how can food cause cancer? Part of it is when we eat unhealthy, we gain weight.
and we know the role of being overweight with your risk of cancer. It's a complicated process that really revolves around inflammation and immune response. And if you're not eating healthy, you're not going to get those important vitamins and minerals. If you're eating all the processed foods, the salamis, the pastramis, all of these things that are filled with nitrates and other aspects that make it tasty,
are not inherently healthy. And when you think about how do they make all these processed foods, they're stripping away all the healthy aspects. And it's never one daily choice that's going to increase your risk. But what I tell people is it's your choices that are made on a daily basis over time that impact your risk.
Brock (05:35.117)
Yeah, a quote that I like that hints towards that idea is one hot day doesn't make a summer. A entire string of hot days makes a summer. And you know, that's the power of consistency working for you or consistency with bad habits working against you with the balance of because there's no person in the world really that is just going to drop everything on the weekend. Just going to continue to eat.
no sugar and not overeat and just completely eliminate alcohol. There are some people like that, but for a lot of people, there still needs to be some moderation and some balance. How can people balance that with keeping their cancer prevention in mind?
John (06:27.086)
Part of it includes doing an accurate assessment yourself. What I find is people will always say to me, oh, Dr. White, I eat healthy. I eat salads, or I try to eat a healthy breakfast. But they're significantly overweight. And diet, what we eat, plays a big role. I often ask people to do a food journal just for a week. And I tell them to ignore the first two days.
because they're trying to behave that day and don't want to put in bad things. And then I say, you have to write down everything that you put in your mouth. And then you find out there's a lot of snacks, there's a lot of treats. And I said to a patient the other day, I said, that doesn't mean that you can never have ice cream, but you just can't have it every day. And she's like, oh, I don't have it every day. And I said, well, how often do you have it? She's like, probably every other day. Well, that's probably too much when you're overweight.
Brock (06:57.391)
Yeah
John (07:23.778)
You know, here in the United States, only about 25% of people eat fish one day a week. The rest don't eat fish at all. I mean, it's staggering the number of people that go to fast food restaurants every day. So that's the problem that we're having, Brock. There's not an accurate assessment of what you yourself are doing. And then there's this sense.
I don't want to deny myself anything. That's too hard to do that. I can never have potato chips So I can never have ice cream or I can never have a piece of cake. That's not what we're saying We're saying you can't have it most days of the week I want you to have more healthy days than unhealthy days in terms of what you eat, but most people Aren't like that
Brock (08:16.845)
Yeah, I think that fish consumption statistic is down to, when you bring up fast foods, there's not many restaurants, fast food restaurants, where you can get quick and convenient food because so many people are time poor these days, especially when you throw kids into the mix, as I'm experiencing, it just kind of gets, everything's so compressed. But yeah, there's not many fish options. And even though that's only one pillar of nutrition, it's still something that can help contribute.
to better health. So with nutrition, eating a healthy diet is what a lot of people will say, personal trainers will say, physicians will say, doctors will say it. Can you give some practical advice of kind of what that can look like? Because some people just say, oh yeah, I'm eating healthy, and then they're eating granola bars and all this kind of stuff that we know that...
It's probably better than eating a chocolate bar, but there could be other better options too. So how can we kind of guide them in the right direction?
John (09:19.126)
And there's a lot of misinformation out there. They don't realize that how they bind the granola together is a molasses or a sugar. So I do ask people to look at food labels. Not that they have to study labels, or you may know how many carbs you had yesterday. I couldn't tell you that. But what I can do and ask patients to do, when you're looking at different yogurts, when one yogurt has 20 grams of sugar because it's
you know, French vanilla flavoring, and one has six, or one has 15 grams of protein, and one has two, you know what the better choice is by just comparing. And what I often tell people is, it's as important what you include as well as what you exclude. So you have to look at both. So you have to say, I'm going to reduce my consumption of red meat. We know that the studies have consistently shown an association
Brock (10:07.67)
Mm.
John (10:17.738)
between red meat and cancer, particularly colon cancer. Again, it doesn't mean you can never have red meat, but how do you reduce it to maybe once or twice a week? How do you replace one hamburger or hot dog or sandwich with, as we just talked about, fish? Load it with powerful antioxidants, which we know reduces cancer risk, as well as lowering calories. So automatically, you're gonna lose weight.
How do you have more fruits and vegetables? Here in the United States, most people do not eat fruit on a daily basis. So how can you figure out a way to consume it? At least one meal, with one meal, maybe it's breakfast, lunch, or dinner. It'd be better if you had two of them, but I'd settle for at least one. How do you have more whole wheat and low-fat dairy? Those are the things that you want to include on a daily basis. And then you want to exclude.
you know, the processed foods, the saturated fats. What I say to people, all those sugary drinks, right? We consume so many calories by what we drink and we don't even think about it. You should replace everything with basically water and coffee is good and we can come back to that as long as it's not the frappuccinos. But those are some of the changes that you wanna make. And what I always say to patients with baroc is,
Brock (11:34.306)
I'd like to touch on that.
John (11:43.41)
I'm not as concerned as where you are next week or three weeks from now. I'm concerned where you are two years from now, five years from now, because if you keep doing what you're doing, it's going to catch up to you over time. And there are so many choices out there. You have to find what you enjoy. And too often people will say to me, oh, Dr. White, I don't like fish. Oh, Dr. White, I don't like beans. I had a patient say to me, I don't like water. And I knew what she meant. She liked the flavor of it. But the point was...
You have a young child now. When they get older, you're not gonna say, oh, you can't, you can't, you know, if they say they don't like it, you're gonna tell them to keep trying it. You're gonna find different ways to enjoy it. So there are ways to do that for yourself, just as you would for your children.
Brock (12:28.065)
Yeah, personally, I put frozen kale and frozen spinach into smoothies because I know that I've fallen into a category of a person that doesn't really thoroughly love vegetables. I like roast potatoes, roast sweet potato, roast pumpkin, that kind of stuff. Most people can get on board with that, but to sit down and eat a bowl of broccoli or eat the broccoli on the side, I'm just kind of not a big fan of that. But then there are ways like putting them in a smoothie that I can actually... Yeah.
John (12:32.094)
Yeah, I love that.
John (12:53.518)
I love the frozen idea because then it doesn't go to waste.
Brock (12:57.877)
So, and you know, that's why I also love smoothies. And okay, I may be sacrificing a bit of the fiber because I'm blending it all up, but at least I'm still getting a ton of things that I probably wouldn't really eat if I'm not having a smoothie. So I find that has been a big win for me. Would you say that with nutrition? So a lot of the things that you're talking about, my personal training brain and my nutrition brain is going, well, ultimately what we're doing here is looking for foods that are nutrient dense.
probably less hyper palatable, still tasty, but not extremely tasty that your brain's like, I need more, I need more, I need more, which leads to overeating. So would you say that the nutrition advice would be, I guess, mainly reducing calories because that has an impact on their waistline and then being at a healthier weight is better for cancer risk than just the foods alone?
John (13:34.253)
Mm-hmm.
John (13:53.314)
We definitely have to be at a healthier weight. And we're going to talk about activity and exercise, but I'll tell you, most of our weight is dictated by what we eat. Exercise has enormous health benefits, but you're going to lose weight by changing what you eat. And we used to think a calorie is a calorie, whether it's from fat or it's from carbohydrates, but that's not quite true because we know that some foods are healthier than others. So it is about calories in...
but also combined with calories out. But again, it's that what you include as well as what you exclude. So you can't say I'm gonna eat kale, I'm gonna eat broccoli, and then I'm gonna have chocolate bars at night as a dessert, because they're gonna zero each other out. What I really focus on with patients are finding those foods that they enjoy. As you said, those nutrient-dense foods, because that's gonna make them feel full. That's gonna release something called leptin and ghrelin.
which is gonna help you feel satisfied, so you won't overeat. But you still have to have a plate that is full of nutrients, that is full of antioxidants, that's gonna make you feel good and live longer. None of us really feel good after a high carbohydrate dinner or something with a lot of sugar. You have to have that balance, particularly as you know.
protein and fiber.
Brock (15:24.301)
Yeah, fiber's a big one that I've been thinking about lately and also kind of changing my mind in terms of what I recommend to clients. And I'm not a doctor by any means, but I do look at a lot of things to do with nutrition and how it has an impact on our life. And I used to be very pretty bro, if you know what I mean. Like I was just like, macros are the only thing that counts, calories are the only thing that counts. Back in 2019, I did something called the...
I called it the 30 day ice cream challenge where I actually ate ice cream every day but still lost weight. And I didn't just eat ice cream. I had the rest of my diet. Normal foods, the healthy smoothies and rice and protein and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.
John (16:02.382)
Mm-hmm.
John (16:06.166)
I'm not sure where we're going here, Brock, but go on. I'm teasing.
Brock (16:12.765)
I guess what I'm saying is, so I just had dessert every night. I had ice cream every night and I lost weight. It was to prove a point that, you know, moderation can, you know, you can still have something here and there and still lose weight. But now looking back at it, I'm like, well, is that really the best advice to be giving? Because who can really stop at the amounts of ice cream that I was having and then stopping? And also is this great advice to say, hey guys, you can have ice cream every day and lose weight. And even though it proves a point that calories and macros...
matter in terms of body composition and losing weight? What does it do for your long-term longevity and things like cancer risk and things like that? So I kind of, I went from this perspective, like only calories matter, but now I'm, and I think everyone in, yes, I think everyone in the fitness spaces, yeah.
John (16:55.946)
It's the quality of the calories. It's the quality. Yeah. And you exercise a lot. So I'd have to monitor what you were doing at that time with exercise. I mean, we have to remember, and I should say cancer is primarily a disease of aging, but not completely, meaning most cancers occur when we get older. We're starting to see cancer at an earlier age, but it's really a issue of a problem with cell division, meaning your cells make a mistake when they divide.
And instead of having a normal cell, you have a cancer cell. So the issue is what's causing it to make these errors in cell division. And there's lots of things that do that. But we also think the food that we eat that often results in being overweight impacts immune function, impacts cell division. And that's what's causing us to increase our risk for cancer.
Brock (17:51.117)
Hmm. So to jump into the physical activity aspect that you mentioned, you know, there's calories in what we consume, but then there's the calories out in terms of what we expend. And that's not just, I'm in the gym expending calories on the rowing machine, but it's also how much are we walking? You know, what are we doing day to day? Um, are we working out? What type of workouts are we doing? What intensity are we working out? There's a lot of things to unpack, but, um, what can we do with our training to help, I guess, our.
cancer prevention, not that that's really, you know, someone's like, I'm working out to prevent cancer, but you know, why not if you're already training, have that in the back of your mind to kind of guide you where to go. So what can people, I guess, have in the back of their mind while they are putting time into exercise?
John (18:29.09)
Absolutely.
John (18:37.026)
Yeah. We don't have a magic pill to prevent cancer. But, Brock, if we did, exercise would be as close to that magic pill as we have. And there are so many reasons why. So I didn't mean to be flippant. Exercise does play a component of weight loss. But you're never going to expend as many calories and exercise on a treadmill or something if you're eating a lot of high calorie unhealthy foods. So part of it is helping to maintain normal weight.
So that's important because that reduces inflammation, particularly chronic inflammation. It helps us maintain good blood sugar control, the issue of insulin release. And we think that insulin may ultimately play a role in cancer prevention as well. And no one ever feels bad after they went to the gym. No one ever says, oh, I wish I didn't work out or I wish I didn't go for a run. What do they feel? They feel great. King or queen of the hill.
It's the release of these powerful endorphins. It's decreasing the amount of cortisol that we have, which we think also plays a role in chronic inflammation. And then we're also starting to see with exercise that it might actually impact what we call epigenetics, the way our cells divide, what we're talking about in terms of cancer. So it's really, as I said, as close to a magic pill as we have.
But people have to do it right. And that's part of the issue. You have to have exertion. You have to have consistency. You mentioned walking. I like walking, but I'll tell you, if you just walk an hour every other day and it's this casual walk that you're talking to your spouse, which has value, or you're on your phone or something, but you're not putting exertion in, you're not going to reap those health benefits. So what I say to people, and you may agree or disagree, exercise smarter.
not longer. Instead of walking for an hour, maybe you do power walking, where you walk at a certain pace for a minute, then you speed it up for a minute, then you go back down, and you have some element of that. That's what I want to see in terms of exercise, that you have some exertion and you do it consistently.
Brock (20:54.805)
Yeah, I definitely agree with working out smarter as opposed to just longer or even harder because there's a lot of people that will just go to the gym and just thrash themselves and things that, yes, sure they are exerting, but when we look at things like building muscle, okay, we could probably do it smarter. I think it really does depend on the individual too, because for someone that doesn't do anything, an hour long walk every other day is actually a step forward. But for someone who's looking to further their fitness, then yeah, we need to start looking at
like anything, how can we do it smarter? How can we get a better return on investment? And that exertion is very important. So even with training in terms of trying to build muscle, we have to have a big enough stimulus for our muscles to say, hey, okay, we need to actually grow and we need to actually repair stronger to actually grow. So with longevity or cancer
Is that the same thing? Does your body need to have that response to say, you know, I need to, I don't know, I need my cells to divide in a healthier way. I'm not really sure the science behind it.
John (22:04.406)
What we think is happening here is it's the issue of inflammation. It's the issue of really helping to serve as an antioxidant, right? We have these free radicals that our cells put out without getting overly complicated, and antioxidants help scoop them up. So to prevent stroke, prevent a heart attack, prevent cancer, exercise is very good in doing that.
John (22:34.382)
how to exercise properly. They go to the gym, they just look around, they see what someone else is doing. The guys are all huddled around the bench press and the bicep curls. And what I have to say is what I really have enjoyed about your posts. And one of the reasons why I was very excited to talk to you is you're really a leader in helping people understand an exercise you're doing right versus an exercise you're doing wrong.
Because as you pointed out, we're all limited by time. So if we're in the gym, or even if we're downstairs or in the garage and we set up gym equipment, we want to do it right. We don't want to hurt ourselves, but we want to get the benefit. And I love your videos because they're always great in showing you this is how you need to do it right. So that's an important component as well. People think they're exercising, you probably have seen this too, and people are talking a lot to their friends. And then they're like, whew, I was here.
minutes but much of it was talking and then they're wondering wait why aren't I having improvement you know this isn't working so that's a challenge
Brock (23:42.009)
Yeah, I have so much to say on that topic. But, so I did a podcast a few weeks ago and I had Dr. Mike Isretel on, actually he's based in the States, and he was talking about this idea that he kind of coined, which is the stimulus to fatigue ratio, and that comes down to what, it's not a mind-boggling idea, but ultimately it's trying to get the most out of the least and trying to get the most stimulus for what you're going for and the least amount of fatigue. And that's why I'm so...
on top of technique because I want people to get the most for the least, which is what you're talking about, maximizing the time that we have. And that idea helps you to, in terms of training better, then you're hitting the target muscle better. And then you're, you're getting a better response for the amount of time. And you're also accumulating less fatigue, which makes you recover better, which also can help you perform better cognitively at your work or, you know, as a husband or as a wife. And that's kind of why I'm
John (24:34.903)
Absolutely.
Brock (24:38.573)
you know, on top of that and I create these videos because I want people to get the most out of it because as I've actually become busier as a person, you know, when I was a young single personal trainer doing whatever I want, you know, time was just, you know, falling out of my pockets and now I feel like I don't even have pockets to find the time. I really have to make the most and squeeze the juice out of every single day. I want to kind of talk about maybe just one or two myths that are
Prevalent in the cancer world that I'd want you just to unpack And and one main one for you is genetics That's the one of the biggest thing that I've picked up from you Is there any others that you want to talk about or do you want to expand on the genetics one?
John (25:20.618)
Yeah, a couple. So there is this myth that most cancer is genetics. Only about, as you pointed out, 15% to 20% is genetics. And what it is are these inherited mutations. And we can't test for all these inherited mutations. And there are some kits that are available online, 23andMe, Ancestry. And they only check for a very limited number of these inherited mutations. And that's useful information to have.
test negative, that doesn't mean that you're still not an increase for some of these other variants. The best way to test for genetic history is to ask family members and to find out if someone died of cancer, what age they were, and what type. And if you see it in two or more people, then you may need to talk to genetic counselor. And I also want to say, you can do everything right that we've talked about, and you can still get cancer. That can still happen just by unfortunate luck.
You know, the other issue is, and people used to think more so in the past that cancer was contagious, right? So you had to avoid people if they had cancer. But I point that out because there are some cancers, and I talk about it in the book, Take Control of Your Cancer Risk, that are viruses. The HPV virus, which can be involved in several types of cancers, head and neck cancer, cervical cancer, is a sexually transmitted virus, and we need to vaccinate against HPV.
It's also for hep B and hep C. If you have either of those, those can increase your risk of cancer. Every now and then, something will pop up on our feeds about microwaves and cell phones causing cancer. So people can get obsessed about that, where we don't have any data to show that is the case. And they're not focused on the things that we're talking about today, where we do have much better association.
You know, another myth that might be of interest to your audience is the belief that only women get breast cancer. Men can get breast cancer as well. And if they do feel something suspicious, they are going to have to be examined. And the other myth that I'd point out, and this occurs with a lot of cancers, people assume they'll have symptoms, right? So they'll know when to go, kind of like with a heart attack. I'll have chest pain, so then I'll know to go.
John (27:45.614)
Often when you have symptoms, such as weight loss that's unexplained, your cancer often has advanced. So that's why screening is important as well.
Brock (27:59.225)
So what's the recommendations on screening? Is there any general guidelines? I know that there's many different types of cancer, and it must vary.
John (28:05.622)
You know, it varies. It varies by specialty group in the US. And it varies a little bit around the world based on resources. And it really bases on people at average risk. So if you have a family member who died of cancer or diagnosed with cancer at an early age, then you need to be screened earlier. But for colon cancer, it's typically the different groups, say, either 45 or 50. For mammograms.
It could be 40 or it could be 35 depending upon what group you're listening to. And then for prostate cancer, it's typically around 45 years of age. Now for pancreatic cancer and some other cancers, we don't have screening for those cancers. Lung cancer is primarily based on your smoking history and the amount of time that you smoked. And really people need to get screened.
for these cancers if they meet those criteria.
Brock (29:07.061)
Yeah, it's just often, I feel like it's not really a focus or a scare when you're in your thirties and kind of just like living life and you feel a bit invincible. I guess thirties started to feel a little bit like you're becoming less invincible, but I feel, and this is just my anecdotal experience, but when people start to do the screening and all that kind of stuff, I'm not going to say that it's too late, but often it's when their health is already at a place where they...
have reached the place where they need to do those screens because they're in a little bit of a, oh my gosh, I think it's, you know, I've put on too much weight or I haven't been training and like, man, I'm stuck. How can we encourage people to think a bit forward and, you know, get behind the idea of prevention is the best intervention?
John (29:41.358)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
John (29:53.762)
Yeah, and for most cancers we don't screen in the 30s because as I talked about most cancer is of Aging but remember the other thing I want to point out is skin cancer skin cancer still is significant cancer and some are Malignant that can result in significant morbidity including, you know scars and Deformations, so that's something to think about as well
You know, Brock, that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book. How do we get people to change their mindset? We're kind of set up in health care as it's a sick care system, not a well care system. So we don't really focus on prevention. We don't incentivize doctors to talk about prevention. We don't pay for services that are associated with prevention. So it's really this mindset that we have to change with people that...
You know, sure, in your 30s, you're not thinking about, oh, like I want to still be living in my 70s and the 80s, but you also want to be living a quality life. You don't want to be associated with morbidity and mortality and not being able to move. What I've been talking to people about lately in terms of exercise is I say, do you want to do cardiac rehab, which as you may know is primarily, you know, diet and exercise after you have a heart attack, or would you rather do it now?
more flexibility, more options, and you can prevent that heart attack to a large degree. But people tend not to think that way. I mean, you're very focused on health and wellness and know the benefit of it. And that's what we need to change people's mindset to. It's about wellness. How do you feel good? How do you live longer with a quality life?
It can be hard to do with the mixed messaging from media in terms of eating and drinking alcohol and we just don't focus on it enough. And that's why I'm so glad you're having these conversations about the role of prevention, the role of wellness, the role of feeling good with healthy foods and exercise.
Brock (32:06.357)
Yeah, I think as unfortunate and difficult it was to lose my mum at a young age to cancer, I also try to see the light at the end of the tunnel in terms of the fact that I do see... I've had this perspective of looking at 90-year-old Brock, looking back and trying to see what his life would look like. Because once you experience this and...
And I think a lot of people that have lost someone significant in their life will have this idea. Once you see the loss of life, you really understand the true value of life and the gift and the miracle and just the basic when you have every day just waking up because some people do not have that privilege and to look back from a future 90 year old Brock that I don't even know. I don't even know if I'll make it to 90 but I'd pretend that I do.
and I look back, yeah, so do I. But looking back from that, I think that's just such a powerful concept in all facets of life, but especially our health. So we need to think, okay, does 90 year old Brock still walk? Yes, okay, so what does 80 year old, 70 year old, 60, 50, 40, 30 year old Brock do to help make sure that that's a goal? And now, you know, I can have goals of trying to squat this amount and, you know, having legs X big, not that that's really a goal of mine,
John (33:01.41)
Good, hope you do.
Brock (33:30.537)
As you get older, these goals will mature. And I think as long as you have that kind of end destination where you reverse engineer your goal from, I think that's a really important thing for people to consider. And that's really hard to sell to a 20 year old, I know, because they don't have that perspective. But I think that unfortunate circumstance that I had really helped me to see that. Along the lines of lifestyle, because that's kind of a separate.
thing to just training in food, like lifestyle could be stress, it could be relationships, it could be, I don't know, career choice or fulfillment. How does that impact cancer prevention or our health in that way? Because, or even mental health as well. Like what are the impacts? Because it feels so broad to me. And to be very honest, I'm not really sure what the correlations are between things like stress and mental health with cancer.
John (34:24.45)
Yeah, you know, Brock, I think it's important for listeners to know there's no physical health without mental health. There really isn't. And there's no mental health without physical health. They're on a continuum. Although in medicine, we tend to put them in separate areas. I mean, we even have separate disciplines, but they really are integral. And, you know, we've known it for centuries, the mind-brain connection, but we don't, or the mind-body connection. But we don't do anything.
it. And I bring up the example of when you're not feeling well, if you think you have flu, you know, what's the first thing that you do? You go to bed, you instinctively know the power of sleep to restore immune function. Now everyone has stress in their lives and you know some stress is important, you know, when you're in a dangerous situation or you need to get something done, some stress is good.
It's the chronic stress, the stress on a daily basis that I see in patients that are impacting their activities of daily living, that are impacting irritable bowel syndrome. People are coming in with nausea, diarrhea, they're having chest pain at a young age. Stress is that chronic inflammation, which is not good. It's causing an error in cell division. An example I say that stress on our cells is
If I told you, oh, hey, you only need to make 10 cookies for your child's school event tomorrow, right? But then I say, oh, wait, Brock, I was wrong. It's 100. And I need them tomorrow. What would happen? Some wouldn't look so good, some wouldn't taste so good, you would make some mistakes as you had to get all of them done. And that's what's happening with your cells in cell division
under a lot of stress. You're making mistakes, and some cells are going to become cancerous. That's the real issue with stress and cancer. And we have seen this time and time again through studies.
Brock (36:24.954)
Hmm.
Brock (36:41.429)
And you touched on sleep as well. How does that impact it? So obviously I think that sleep has been growing in awareness, how people have, you know, been more aware of actually the benefits of a recovery, especially from a sports perspective. Um, but also like, I must be very honest. I'm not the best with sleep and I have a big list of things to do per day. And as a young parent, I'm still trying to balance the
John (36:49.646)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
John (36:56.644)
Hmm?
Brock (37:10.985)
and someone that works with himself, to be very honest, I'm still very much balancing time management and within time management comes sleep management because that does take up a portion of time. And I used to have an unhealthy relationship when I was younger and look at it as a waste of time. And I've definitely changed my perspective on that. It's not a waste of time. It's actually a good use of time. What role does it play in terms of our cancer risk?
John (37:34.71)
Yeah. And, mm-hmm.
And, you know, we have these sleep trackers now. I don't know if you have one on either a ring or, or watch. I see you showing your watch. I have a Fitbit on as well. And I do track my sleep. I don't get preoccupied by it. And, you know, I have a whole chapter in the book about sleep and, you know, Barack, I have to say, I still don't think you have the right perspective on sleep because, you know, it is kind of that.
Brock (37:46.83)
I've got a Fitbit.
John (38:04.994)
bravado that's often in medicine and you're talking about in your own life. Oh, I don't need sleep I'll sleep enough when I'm dead or you know sleep is only you know for those people that are that are weak I'm fine on four hours sleep. Guess what? You're not on fine on four hours of sleep It might work one or two time, but you do that on continuous basis It is going to add up in terms of the health benefits and the reason why is that Sleep really is
the work of multiple hormones that are important in our body. The main ones are cortisol and melatonin. There's also a recsant and some others. So cortisol is what helps us wake up in the morning, and then later at night it goes down, whereas melatonin is really impacted by light, and it signals to our brain when it's getting dark that it's time to go to sleep. When you mess up that rhythm, that circadian rhythm that we refer to, that
is going to cause problems later on. And we actually have seen, and I talk about it in the book, in shift workers, people that work these unusual hours late at night, it increased in certain type of hormonal cancers, particularly prostate and breast cancer. And some countries of the world have actually compensated shift workers who have gotten cancer. Because we think it's relating to this, you know, messing up.
of these hormones. And what is frustrating, and I get it, you have a lot to do. And sleep is always the lowest priority. And you think, I'll get to it later in life. And I used to say, what's the one thing that you can start doing today to reduce your cancer risk? It's actually getting more quality sleep. But that's something, Brock, that will catch up to you over time. And it is hard, and it's really hard with a newborn. And that might be the case for several months. But.
It's about time management. It's about realizing what's important. People do need sleep. And you instinctively know it's important to have recovery from heavy lifting days. Why is that? Why is that necessary for your body to physically recover? Why don't you think it's, I'm being rhetorical, why don't you think it's necessary for your brain to recover? Sleep is not putting your computer in sleep mode.
Brock (40:03.211)
Mm.
John (40:29.902)
It's really about cleaning out your brain, you know, getting rid of these free radicals. There's a lot going on while you sleep. So sleep does play an important role.
Brock (40:43.529)
Yeah, I, when I was younger, I did this interview and I actually said those words, you sleep when you're dead. And I just looked back at it, it was just, it was, yeah, it was just really, it was really dumb. I've definitely changed my mind. And I've actually been doing my best to try and improve it. So I've been trying to like tape my mouth because I often, it sounds weird, but often when you, because I'm a very active sleeper, okay, so.
John (40:50.867)
See?
John (40:57.292)
Good.
John (41:11.095)
Okay.
Brock (41:11.885)
And I think it's because I'll like lie on my back and I'll probably snore or something like that. Like my wife will say that I was snoring and all this kind of stuff. So we looked after things like the darkness, the temperature and having the bed only to sleep. And yeah, cooler is better. Around, yeah, I think that's around, yeah, around 18 to 20 degrees Celsius is kind of where that range lies. But I found that.
John (41:24.142)
Cooler is better, cooler is better, around 65, 67. Fahrenheit, Celsius, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
John (41:37.046)
I don't know about the taping of the mouth. Maybe it's on the nose.
Brock (41:40.513)
So I have been doing that and it makes a big difference because you're nose breathing. So apparently that helps with the oxygen intake and often when we wake up or like, I think I wake up frequently throughout the night but I don't remember it because I'm like so tired and I'm just like kind of like go back to sleep but it's not restful. Anyway, I find that I have much more vivid dreams or I even dream because I find I don't dream, I don't dream when I don't do it. And but yeah, anyway, that's just kind of like some,
John (41:43.982)
Okay?
John (42:02.094)
Interesting.
John (42:08.162)
You're gonna have to send me your sleep tracking data and we'll have to have a telemedicine visit on it.
Brock (42:10.353)
some anecdote. Oh, it's not good. It's not good. It's not good. We're still trying to figure that out. But I'm aware that you have to jump off. But thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. As I said, this is a topic that's very close to my heart. And, you know, I wish I heard a conversation like this, you know, when I was younger, I guess not really so for myself, but more so just to help me kind of come to terms with things because there were so many unanswered questions. There wasn't much.
John (42:23.406)
Absolutely.
Brock (42:40.629)
knowledge around this type of content because I don't know, maybe it was a bit less attractive, but now it's so, I guess it's so prevalent in life that we have to be aware of it. And you know, whether we like it or not, whether we choose to address the concern or not, unfortunately cancer is going to happen. So it's best to be aware of it and, and be as preventative as possible. Like I was saying, prevention is the best intervention. And I really want to get that, that mindset.
John (43:06.862)
That's right.
Brock (43:09.673)
out there and having this conversation really helps that.
John (43:13.39)
You know, we always say at WebMD that better information leads to better health. So it is about empowering people with information so that they can, you know, be more engaged with their own care. So thank you for having me, Brock. I look forward to future discussions.
Brock (43:30.233)
Thank you so much for coming on, mate. I appreciate your time.
John (43:33.73)
Thank you.
Brock (05:42.391)
What role does nutrition have to do with skin health? Because I am very focused on nutrition with my clients in the personal training world, flexible dieting, the role of protein, carbohydrates, and fats, but I have no idea what it does to the skin. So I'd love to hear, I know it's a very general question.
The role of nutrition with skin health, you know, couldn't be more broad, but I'm happy for you to break it down into, you know, this is what vegetables do, or this is what fruits do, or this is what meat does. I'm not sure, you know, what I'm even talking about at this point, but I'm happy for you to take it wherever you want to. But the overarching question or concern that I have is what role does nutrition have in skin health?
Ron (06:34.498)
You're Brock, this is a great question, the connection between nutrition and skin health. There's no one that actually knows exactly the answer. So you have different experts in the field, whether it's dermatologists, they study skin and they're experts in skin health and disease. You have cosmetic chemists like myself that work with topical ingredients that I could use to help improve the look and feel of skin. And you have nutritionists and fitness experts like yourself, which focus on overall
body health and conditioning, and of course nutrition, you know, is a big part of that. But no one's been able to really know for sure exactly the connection between, okay, the food I take in, my nutrition, and what my skin looks like. Here are the anecdotes, and here are some studies that show that high sugar, high processed foods, those could lead to more acne, breakouts, et cetera, and may accelerate the look and signs of aging. Again, that's...
little bit of data, little bit of anecdotes, but no one knows exactly for sure. So I always encourage those that follow my brand BeautyStat is to make sure you just eat a balanced diet, try to avoid high sugar, high alcohol, and processed foods and stick to whole foods and make sure there's balance. So that's my advice. And I think that's advice that a lot of other experts I might give.
Brock (07:58.279)
Yeah, that's very close to the advice that I would give in regards to maintaining a healthy physique as well, not just your skin. Because the processed foods are very highly palatable. So they're super tasty, they're very calorie dense as well. So often that doesn't help the waistline when you're consuming these foods. And it's very hard to stop. If you have a box of pizza in front of you, it's very rare that you're going to say, I'm just going to have one because I'm so disciplined that I'm going to have a green tea and go to bed. That doesn't happen. Right. You grab the pizza box.
You grab, I don't know, some Coke or some Mountain Dew or whatever and you put on a Netflix movie and then it just kind of spirals into Maltesers and popcorn and then all this kind of stuff happens. It's not just that one thing. What is the balance between having some sort of exciting diet or foods that are highly processed? Because I don't think anyone's just going to go cold turkey. I'm not gonna touch this. We all go to weddings. We all have things to celebrate.
What's the balance and how much would you recommend or guide them to have?
Ron (09:03.306)
To me, it's just about balance. And I think, what does that exactly mean? Hard to say. It's about just not being excessive. I think one thing that we do know is that diet alone will not necessarily improve or give you the significant improvement in skin that you might be looking for. So it may keep you at a base level of not getting any worse, but applying skincare products, ingredients topically,
that may give you the additional benefit that you may need, especially whether we're talking about protection, like sun protection. Sure, eating good food that's rich in antioxidants was going to help your skin protect itself. However, harsh UV, going out in the sun every day, the food is not enough. You need topical skincare, great sunscreens, and great skincare to protect your skin and maybe even repair your skin. So that's one thing we do know.
And I recommend that for all consumers who are looking for some level of improvement in their skin.
Brock (10:08.715)
So were you saying that there's foods that actually help protect your skin from the sun?
ron (10:14.11)
Yeah, to some extent. So having, yes, yes. So eating foods that are rich in antioxidants, vitamin C, that is going to naturally help your skin protect itself. However, it's very limited. If you're out and exposing yourself to UV sun on any type of ongoing basis, you need protection. And that's why we always recommend those experts here in the skincare industry and the beauty industry recommend that consumers wear
Brock (10:16.043)
To some extent, yeah.
Ron (10:41.45)
a minimum of SPF 30 sunscreen protection every day, even on cloudy days.
Brock (10:49.463)
To give the general population an idea of what foods would be high in vitamin C and antioxidants, what's just a handful of foods that they could include?
Ron (10:59.67)
green leafy vegetables and fruits. Of course everyone knows the citrus fruits, the oranges, the lemons, all of those are going to be rich in vitamin C, but the same thing again with some of your green leafy vegetables. Those are going to be great in vitamin C as well.
Brock (11:14.199)
It just so happens that they are the foods that no one really wants to consume.
Ron (11:18.214)
Exactly. Yeah, so those are the ones. But I think, you know, I think we're learning. I think, you know, people were doing smoothies, we're trying to make fruits and vegetables a little bit more palatable by blending them, mixing them. So I think that trend will continue. And I think it's great to see people at least becoming more aware of the importance of it.
Brock (11:38.579)
Yeah, that's one thing that I've incorporated into my diet. I used to really have a lot of smoothies for breakfast and I despise eating green vegetables, just like most people, but I have to do it. So what I would do is just get frozen organic kale and spinach things and just throw them in. You can't even taste it. There's a slight taste difference, but you can, for the amount of benefits that you're going to get from consuming quite a decent chunk of green leafy vegetables, I think it's worth it. So that was definitely one hack that I...
Ron (11:47.854)
All right.
Ron (11:52.205)
Yes.
Brock (12:07.735)
put into my personal life.
Ron (12:09.058)
Definitely, definitely recommended. And again, we have consumers that may have concerns with acne, they might have concerns with hyperpigmentation or uneven skin tone. A lot of great skincare products that can help treat those. And especially with my brand BeautyStep, that's one of the things that we're experts at is working with ingredients like vitamin C, which is a very tough to stabilize ingredient. What that means is that it tends to oxidize or turn brown and
it's rendered inactive. So we've found a way to stabilize it so that you can use it, get the benefits of it, and not to worry about the fact that it might have expired.
Brock (12:48.203)
How far can consuming foods take you in regards to potentially not necessarily having to take products? Or on the other side of that conversation, is it always recommended, obviously you have a company called BeautyStat which provides these products. So, you know, we have to keep that in mind. I'm not trying to say that you're trying to necessarily push it, but my question is, how far can it?
can we protect our skin naturally without having to provide other things? Because personally, and I said this when I emailed you about the podcast, I have no skincare routine and maybe that shows on my face. I'm not really sure. I'm not really too concerned to be very honest at the moment, but how far can we go naturally with things like vitamin C and anti antioxidants that you're talking about?
Ron (13:27.862)
Yeah.
Ron (13:34.27)
Yeah, Brock, it's a great question. So we are not here to cause fear or make people feel ashamed for their skin. The industry has been growing because consumers are concerned. They want to take action. So for people like you who are not necessarily, who may be thinking about, hey, maybe I should be thinking about skincare. I don't know, I'd love to learn more. I think, you know, we could certainly educate, but we have enough consumers who are concerned.
We have a population that's aging, and there's this concern of trying to remain young and vital and as youthful as possible. And it certainly must fuel the fitness industry. It is fueling the beauty industry as well. Consumers are looking for ways to look better, feel better. And again, it's not about shaming them or making them feel bad about where they are. If they're happy with their skin, that's fantastic. All I would recommend is that
Do protect your skin. That could be just using sunscreen or protective clothing to make sure that you do not get any UV damage and any premature aging. That can certainly happen if you overexpose yourself to the sun.
Brock (14:48.311)
As a person that lives in Australia, we love the sun. I was born in New Zealand but I moved to Australia because it's warmer and they have amazing beaches and it's probably 5 to 10 degrees Celsius warmer on average. And I live in a specific suburb in Sydney that's a five minute walk from the beach. So me and my wife and our daughter, we walk down to the beach. She goes with my daughter every single day when I'm at work but in the weekends we really make the most of it. And especially lately because summer's coming.
We're spending more and more time down there. And one question that my wife actually had was to do with the sun. Cause she knew I was coming on the podcast with you. And you just mentioned, you know, sunscreen is very important. Covering is very important. To what degree is it important if you don't use sunscreen or. Okay. Let's, uh, let's make a situation. If you get sunburned, how bad is that for your skin and what's happening to your skin when that happens?
Ron (15:45.31)
Yeah, when you get sunburn, it's damage, it's excessive damage, and your body goes into protect and treat and heal mode. And what that does is also lead to potential, long-term potential skin cancer. So that's if it goes, if you repeatedly expose yourself to the sun and repeatedly burn yourself, that's where it can lead to.
So I think the data there is clear, absolutely clear. So for those, again, if you don't want to go into using skincare or sunscreen products, it's about protective clothing and that becomes your sunblock.
Brock (16:29.427)
And what do you recommend for people that, I don't know, let's say have already had that pass, like let's say potentially the damage is done, is it just more covering more or is there things to potentially, I know, or I'm not sure if you can reverse things, but is there ways that you can potentially undo any damage that's been done?
Ron (16:40.632)
Mm-hmm.
Ron (16:52.566)
Yeah, probably not. What you could do is prevent it from spreading. And if you ever have anyone that has had issues of having any skin cancer removed, there's still places where it tends to happen. If you don't, if you protect yourself and stop, it'll be limited to just those areas. So you want to make sure that it doesn't become broader and affect more areas of the skin. So intervention at any point is beneficial.
Brock (17:18.775)
Hmm. Yeah. I'm also interested in the role of genetics with skin health, because, you know, there's a, there's a lot of sayings out there for different cultures and different races. And there are many people that, you know, let's say for some reason, haven't had the best luck with, with things like acne. I grew up with a friend who's, who's still one of my best friends today who used a product called Roacutane. I think.
I think that's potentially how you say it. I may have stuffed that up, but, and then I have other friends who just haven't had problems at all. Going through puberty and there's hardly pimples and things like that where I got pimples every now and then I tried to use products like Clarisil and then I used it and then I felt like it made my skin worse so I just stopped and I think that's why from 14 years old I just pretty much haven't touched anything. I was scarred because I felt like as soon as I used, and I'm not trying to throw them under the bus, but.
As soon as I kind of used any product, and it was probably my product selection as well, because once again, zero knowledge, but when I used them, I felt like I just got more whiteheads and pimples, and that could have been things coming to the surface, that's probably a good idea, but I was probably scarred as a young teenager, trying to impress girls and do things like that, and I had pimples on my face, so I just kind of stopped, and then I felt like it was better. So to come back to my original question, what role do genetics play?
Ron (18:43.202)
Well, first, Brock, I'm not a dermatologist or a medical doctor, so I only know what those types of experts say. It's a big part of kind of how our skin turns out and why everyone's skin is different. Even those that are related, you can have siblings, one's prone to this, the other's prone to that, and vice versa. So it really goes down to what our hereditary factors are.
Also, more importantly, is what we expose ourselves to. So again, you can have the best genes in the world, but if you overexpose yourself to certain things or if you don't treat your skin in a good enough way, then you may suffer the consequences of less than perfect skin.
Brock (19:33.783)
Hmm. Another question, and like I said, I'm just gonna fire questions at you, because I feel like you're just this big wealth of knowledge on this topic. So, I guess I'm concluding that the sun is pretty much one of the worst things that can happen to you in terms of just overexposure to the sun without protection. Is smoking also really bad for your skin? Because this might just be the circle that I've kind of floated around in, and I don't have, I might have friends that smoke, I'm not sure.
Ron (19:38.702)
That's all.
Brock (20:02.711)
Maybe they keep it secret to me, but I've seen kind of smokers that and they kind of have
Bad skin, in terms of a lot of lines or potential aging showing earlier than other people that don't. Is that correct?
Ron (20:16.558)
Absolutely rock Cigarette smoking may be the second most dangerous Have the most dangerous effect on our skin. So you definitely want to avoid being around cigarette smoke, secondhand smoke and of course firsthand smoke. you should you should try it all possible to try to limit or quit that because it's definitely taken That's definitely proven that cigarette smoke does accelerate
the signs of aging on our skin. So that leads to loss of collagen, the unevenness of skin tone, hyperpigmentation, loss of firmness and beginning of sagging skin. All of those things can occur with chronic exposure to cigarette smoke.
Brock (21:01.555)
And would that be the same with vaping as well? I don't know too much about vaping and how similar it is, but I know that a lot of people are kind of going towards that.
Ron (21:10.935)
I'm not sure either. I think probably less with this exposure to your skin, but not sure about if it's more dangerous versus traditional cigarette smoking for your body.
Brock (21:18.504)
Mm.
Brock (21:25.279)
Right, okay, okay. I wanna move on to a segment of the podcast where we kinda talk about trends. I saw one of your most recent Instagram reels. If you don't follow him, he's at Ron Robinson, cosmetic chemist. Yeah, quite a long one. And you posted about exfoliation, which is quite funny. How do we laugh? Because when I was younger, and once again, zero knowledge.
ron (21:32.066)
Yes.
ron (21:40.938)
Kavist.
Ron (21:44.775)
Yes.
Brock (21:55.055)
I remember being out in the garage and I was looking through my dad's tools and for some reason I had this idea that I was going to use sandpaper on my skin and I didn't. And it actually worked and it felt very smooth and I was like, oh maybe this is, you know maybe I'm onto something. You know obviously I know that was probably too extreme. You know I searched different coarseness of sandpapers and I found the most fine one and I thought okay this is probably going to be better.
Ron (22:02.616)
Ha ha.
Ron (22:15.064)
Yes.
Ron (22:19.79)
I'm sorry.
Brock (22:24.931)
And I think that is manual exfoliation, if I've done my research correctly.
Ron (22:29.41)
That is correct. That would be manual and that would be pretty aggressive exfoliation. So there's a delicate balance. And you know, What is exfoliation? Exfoliation means the sloughing off of the dead skin cell layers on the surface of the skin to reveal brighter, smoother skin underneath. So for those that might have dry, flaky skin, dull looking skin, you might be looking for a product
to help exfoliate that layer and reveal that brighter skin underneath. So, men, a lot of us guys do this when we shave our skin every day. So, you might shave every day, every other day. That's another level of exfoliation. That blade that's going across your skin that's cutting the hair is also lifting off that surface layer of skin. That's why after you shave, after the redness may go away, your skin is smoother. It's smoother, softer,
you've sloughed off or exfoliated that top layer of skin, revealing that smoother skin underneath. So that can be duplicated with other types of skincare products, whether it's a gentle exfoliating scrub, it can be a gentle face peel that contains hydroxy acids, which work by using chemicals to help kind of lift off that dead skin. So you could chemically, You could
physically exfoliate like you did with sandpaper. or you could chemically exfoliate with hydroxy acids. Both are doing the same thing. Again, sloughing off, exfoliating that top layer, and revealing that healthy, smooth, softer, more radiant skin underneath.
Brock (24:14.687)
Is there one that is better? Because personally, in my little experience, I've found that the physical one, probably not sandpaper, but I feel like that feels better. I've used some of my wife's products. I think that's really all I do now. I just look around in the shower and see what's new, and then I try it out just for fun, which is probably the worst strategy you could ever use. But I've found that when there's little beads in the actual solution, that I, personally, I just feel like it's doing more.
Ron (24:30.36)
Right.
Ron (24:42.946)
Mm-hmm.
Brock (24:44.695)
But I haven't really dived into the other side of things where it's more of a chemical exfoliation. Is there one that's better or worse? Is there one that's more preferred from people than other or is it just preference?
Ron (24:56.694)
It's just preference and it's purely what you're looking for. And if you're the type that really wants to feel it for yourself and actually feel the action going on physically with your hands, use a, use an exfoliating product like your wife is using that has those, those gentle beads that work to help exfoliate the skin.
Brock (25:07.623)
Mm.
Brock (25:18.54)
Okay, and how about water? You know, a lot of people talk about how hydration is very important for the skin, things such as this. Is that true? Is that a myth?
Brock (25:34.037)
I can't
It's dropped out.
Something must have happened.
Brock (25:47.603)
It went to mute.
Brock (25:59.467)
I can't hear you. Um...
Brock (26:16.875)
Can't hear you anymore.
Brock (26:21.701)
Can you hear me fine?
Brock (26:29.783)
For some reason I can't hear you.
Brock (26:36.927)
There. I can hear you now. Oh.
Brock (27:08.343)
Check, check. Okay. This side is working fine.
Brock (27:17.051)
Okay, maybe he's gonna jump back in.
Brock (27:21.838)
Okay.
Brock (27:28.915)
I think I can hear you again. Can you hear me? All right, we're back. Okay, that's cool. I'll just lift off from the water question. Is that all good? And then I'll just chop all that stuff out. All right, let's jump back in. And how about water? I'm sitting here drinking my water, but I've heard a lot of people talk about how skin needs to be hydrated. You know, obviously there's a lot of benefits in terms of just being hydrated. I had a specialist, a performance nutritionist on the most previous.
Ron (27:30.788)
Okay, I'm back, I'm back, yes, I can hear you.
Ron (27:37.747)
That sounds good.
Brock (27:57.503)
podcast or the most recent podcast that I did and he and we kind of talked about the balance of, you know, not just having water, if you sweat a lot, you know, having a balance of electrolytes and salt, if you're training or doing combat sports like I do jiu-jitsu, but for your skin, how does hydration impact that?
Ron (28:15.444)
Again, not a medical doctor, but the anecdotes and data that I've seen says it is important. Definitely want to stay hydrated, especially during certain times of year. I'm here in New York City. That's where I'm based. And we're going into the winter climate right now, getting drier indoors with the heat. And that is dehydrating our skin and dehydrating our bodies. So even during this time of year, we need to be drinking.
and of course during the summer as well when we're outdoors and perspiring. So all year long we need to be making sure we're getting adequate hydration.
Brock (28:48.803)
Mm.
Brock (28:54.707)
Okay, cool. So I kind of had this thought in my head, the good, the bad, the ugly. And I just kind of like to get an idea of what have been the best interventions to do with skincare. You've talked a lot about vitamin C and antioxidants. Is there any other things that pop into mind when we think about, okay, this has kind of shifted the industry in a really positive way.
Ron (29:19.408)
Yeah, I think you mentioned a friend that was taking Accutane, and that's a prescription retinoid. And retinoid is a proven ingredient to help either stimulate cell turnover, which can treat lines and wrinkles or acne. So it really is a great ingredient. On the cosmetic side, we use an over-the-counter, similar related ingredient called Retinol. And that's another ingredient that is shown to help stimulate cell turnover.
and can help improve the look and the texture of skin. So that's another ingredient that is trending right now. It's one of the gold standards. So in terms of gold standard ingredients that consumers should be looking out for, should be vitamin C, retinol. We talked about some of the hydroxy acids that can be used to exfoliate the skin, and then sunscreen. So those are the big four that I think consumers should be looking to have somewhere in their routine.
Brock (30:17.895)
And on the other side of the fence, we have things that potentially have disrupted the fitness, not the fitness industry, the, you know, your world in the skin world in a negative way. You know, maybe there's been some strong public figures pushing something that isn't potentially the best, which happens a ton in the fitness world. We have celebrities saying, you know, this is why I lost weight, try this diet. And then you dive into it a bit more. You're like, that's actually completely rubbish. So is there.
Ron (30:38.652)
Mm-hmm.
Brock (30:46.251)
Has there been anything like that in the skin world?
Ron (30:50.152)
No, I think what's interesting is that we all tend to agree on what the bad things are. So decades ago, there were ingredients that we might have used that we don't use any longer. And we all agree to that. I think where we are right now is that there's so many ingredients out there and some work really well for some people and some work really bad for others. But we all, we agree to disagree, right? We agree that's, okay, this worked for me.
Vitamin C is fantastic for me. And then some people feel it doesn't work for them. It might irritate their skin. So that's where we, again, we all agree to disagree. And it's about finding the ingredients and the products that work best for you.
Brock (31:32.831)
That's something that I think we could learn from in the fitness industry because I feel like how political things are happening at the moment where it's becoming very polarizing. That's kind of what's happening on social media slash the fitness industry. They're very closely tied because that's where a lot of the marketing, for example, I do in the fitness industry, but there's a lot of people that are saying, don't do this, don't do that.
Ron (31:45.692)
Mm-hmm.
Brock (31:59.391)
you know, this is gonna kill you and this is gonna make you live to 120 years old. There's a lot of...
dichotomy thinking. There's a lot of black and white. It sounds like there's a lot more non-dichotomous thinking in your industry, a lot more gray that people are happy to explore and reason and nuance. And to be very honest, that's why I created this podcast because it sucks being on Instagram because people are just like, that is wrong. That is right. I've been getting this video that I posted the other day, and this is Facebook. Sorry, I'm going on a bit of a tangent.
Ron (32:07.728)
Mm-hmm.
Ron (32:24.464)
Ha ha ha.
Brock (32:35.183)
Um, but I got, it's almost at a million views. It's just this kind of 10 second video and I'm getting slammed. I'm getting sworn at by, by profiles that show photos with their kids. It's just wild. The like people are, you know, not only the creators, um, but the people that are commenting are also very polarizing as well. Oh, you think, you know, everything that's wrong because Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't do that. So, you know, that must mean it's wrong, you know, and they forget that he had.
Ron (33:00.635)
Right.
Brock (33:03.883)
tons of exogenous testosterone in his body as well. But there's a very polarizing world that I live in, I guess, in Instagram. I think other social media platforms like YouTube have a bit more people with patients that try to understand. But how do you think that kind of gray nuance has been present in your world? Because I think we need to learn from you.
Ron (33:07.253)
You're right.
Ron (33:33.804)
I think so. And I see the conflicts that happen because I follow a lot of the fitness experts and influencers as well. And I see them offering conflicting advice, especially when it comes to, hey, best exercise for glutes, best exercise for delts, best, you know, this and this. And these are the three must do exercise. I do see that. And I think, yeah, there might be some scientific data to support some of their...
thinking some of their content they're putting out there, but a lot of it's up to the individual and what works for them. So I think there's a blend of both. And I think in skincare, it's definitely understood that everyone's skins react differently to things. It's more accepted there. So I hope it can also trickle over to the fitness industry as well and understanding that people are different and react to things differently. And I think that there's more education about that.
about the uniqueness of each other in terms of how we're built and how we respond to things. I think it would be a better place and less people would be attacking you on the content you post.
Brock (34:41.063)
Yeah, I think it's great that it's understood that everyone's different. And I think if you look at someone's skin and look at someone's entire body, it should translate very well because, you know, it's just as important, if not more, because there's, you know, your whole health. And obviously your skin is very important, but like your body, your health, how much you weigh, how much muscle you have, this is also very, very important. So I hope that we can kind of come to that conclusion.
Ron (34:53.026)
Right.
Brock (35:10.127)
I will say though, and I have been thinking about this a lot, people do digest content a lot easier if it's more understood. And sometimes when you dive into a lot of nuance and a lot of, let's say science or research or even anecdote that you've accumulated over the years, sometimes it just loses people because
And then sometimes you find yourself just worrying about the smallest thing that doesn't even really matter, but it does in a certain situation and then people go, well, why does this matter to me? Sometimes it's better to package it as the three best things you need to do or don't do this, don't do that. I think somehow there has to be a balance of some sort. When you're posting on Instagram, because yours is very educational, your short form content, do you consider this of trying to
not just lose people that get lost and also try to provide valuable nuance and information as well.
Ron (36:14.32)
Definitely, and it's, you know, I can only do so much in 60 seconds, I wanna make it really easy to digest and I always leave room to come back for more and elaborate, and especially when I encourage questions and comments and that gives me and helps me, helps guide me in what to follow up on. So I think everyone, all content creators should aim to educate, understand that you may not be able to tell a full, nuanced story in 60 seconds or less.
Do your best and agree that you could follow up with more details and invite the questions and comments. And hey, listen, that gives us an endless amount of content to create because there's always more to dive into and to search and uncover.
Brock (37:03.323)
Yeah, that's why I personally do things on Instagram stories. I say, ask me a question. I do it almost every day. I answer them on my stories, but it also gives me an insight, like you said, of what people actually want to know. Because, you know, you can post whatever you think people want to know, but when you literally have the market research of people saying, you know, what is the best X or how do I get Y then you can create content for that. Before we dive into a bit of your journey, which I want to do, I do have one
last question because I feel I represent a lot of the male population when it comes to skincare routine. So on social media, the whole skincare routine thing, I'm going to be very honest, kind of pissed me off because I just saw a ton of people just posting their skincare routine and I couldn't care less. I was getting asked a lot about it. Hey Brock, can you post your skincare routine? I never did it because I don't have one. I was like, I sh-
Ron (37:50.847)
I'm sorry.
Ron (37:56.676)
Hehehehe
Brock (37:57.111)
I don't know, I train, I eat well, I try to sleep enough, which is challenging now with a daughter, but I also train, I sweat, I'm not sure what this kind of has, but it got very tiring just continuing to see people post this kind of stuff. But What is a basic low maintenance skincare routine for people like me that, like let's say care.
but potentially don't take products, aren't really actively thinking, oh, I need this and I need that. But just some people that want to do something that they can, I guess, do naturally, or this little change that they can make, like instead of just showering, they can shower plus use X. Is there anything that you'd recommend?
Ron (38:43.388)
Okay.
Definitely recommend. And I think for active people like yourself, one thing I do recommend is that you use a facial cleanser every day because you're training, you're working out, you're actually perspiring and you're also secreting more oil, which can clog your pores and in long term may have an effect on your skin. So I'd love for you to see if you can incorporate a facial cleanser just to rinse away all of the perspiration and oil buildup.
after you work out. So that's one thing I recommend. The second thing is if you're active outdoors, if you're taking your activities, your training, you'll work outdoors, do wear sunscreen or protective clothing. So I think those are the two things that I'd like you to do to just easily work into your routine.
Brock (39:34.635)
With protective clothing, are you talking about long sleeve clothes? Are you talking about wearing compression technology on your legs? What are you kind of talking about? Because I can briefly understand it, but I'd like you to dive into it.
ron (39:45.176)
Yes, yes, and yes. Yeah, yes, and yes. Hat, protect your hair and face. Of course, full body, and there's light enough fabrics that provide UV protection while they're allowing you to breathe and allow you to work up a sweat outdoors. Those are the things I've wanted to see. And yes, protective clothing down your legs as well. Any place where the sun, where your skin is exposed to the sun.
I'd like to see that covered up and when you're outdoors and doing anything physical or even leisurely outdoors, make sure you're protected.
Brock (40:25.951)
How do you balance that with getting a tan as well? Because that's obviously one of the most important things when you're talking about looking shredded, helping your muscles look more defined. How do you balance that?
ron (40:28.656)
Hehehe
ron (40:37.396)
self tanning. So go for the self tanners and bronzers. And yeah, hey, we all like if you're on vacation, if we're out and we like to enjoy the sun, just make sure you wear your sunscreen and reapply. And don't go for getting the deepest darkest tan. Protect your skin when you're out in the sun. And again, reapply because when you're out in the sun, you perspire and that makes your sunscreen product.
less effective. You need to reapply it often to make sure it stays active.
Brock (41:09.343)
I want to move the conversation. Oh, go, go.
ron (41:12.538)
Oh, Brock, there's one fitness or trend that I see going on with the fitness influencers that I love. I need to do a stitch on this. So a lot of them, it cracks me up. So they'll show themselves getting out of bed, they go shower, and they start applying their skincare routine before, but they do that before they go to the gym. And it kind of...
Brock (41:21.416)
Okay.
ron (41:36.6)
and it kind of doesn't make sense. If you're going to put on your expensive skincare, then go right to the gym, sweat it off, and then it's not working. You spend a lot of money and you've just perspired the whole skincare away. So I need to do a stitch on this. Apply your skincare after you've showered and you're done with the gym and you're working out. The only skincare you should be applying before you work out is your sunscreen if you're gonna be working out outdoors.
But yes, I'll let you go on to the next thing.
Brock (42:07.211)
That's a great point, that's a great point, because that is another thing that pisses me off online is the morning routine. It's a close cousin to the skincare routine, but it sounds like they can't even get that right either.
ron (42:11.8)
Yes. Morning routine, yes.
Yes.
They mesh them all together.
Brock (42:23.403)
But actually that's a very good thing because I know, I think my wife does that. I think there's, you know, I'm not sure, you know, once again, I don't take anything. So I just go to the gym whenever and kind of do whatever, but I'm sure that there's a lot of people doing that. And also I think there's a lot of people that, and I feel like it's growing that care how they look in the gym as well. Because the gym's not just a place where you lift heavy weights and sweat anymore. I feel like it's becoming a bit more of a.
I don't know, like a social club sometimes. There's a lot of, some people meet great friends there. Some people, you know, may just spot their random gym member and then they become friends. You know, that's definitely happened to me sometimes. So I feel, and even some people are looking for love in gyms, I think, you know, you're in a place that have people that are similarly interested to you. You have, you know, you could hit it off. So I think, I do have a question on that.
ron (43:16.54)
Yep.
Brock (43:22.899)
What if people still want to, I guess, feel like they've looked after their skin or, I don't know, wearing makeup and things like that at the gym. Do you still do that because you're just going to sweat it off? Like you said, is there a balance or do you just have to wear it, sweat it off and then reapply it? And
ron (43:41.632)
just either reapply it or just wait till you finish working out and then apply your skincare.
Brock (43:48.535)
Okay, very simple, great. Yeah, I wanna turn this conversation more towards you. It was very cool to, when I first came across you, to scroll through your Instagram and kinda just see what you've been up to. And you've founded this company called BeautyStat. What was the journey towards that? Because it's, from outside looking in, I can't say that I've done a ton of research on it apart from kind of, you know.
ron (43:50.256)
Very simple.
Brock (44:16.051)
rolling around your website and checking out your personal socials, what has that journey been like to found a company like this and a very successful company at that as well?
ron (44:26.992)
Yeah, thank you. It's been a 33 year journey. So started out as a cosmetic chemist. That's how I started in the industry. And just so you know, a cosmetic chemist is a person that's works to formulate and research cosmetic ingredients and puts together formulas for
Brock (44:55.631)
Oh, no, I can hear you. I can hear you. Start that from the top.
ron (44:59.037)
Oh, back. Okay, great. Sorry. So yeah, sorry. Yeah, a call came in. Sorry about that. Yeah. So I started in the industry 33 years ago as a cosmetic chemist. A cosmetic chemist is a expert that formulates skincare beauty products for either a big company or any company. That's what their job is. And I fell into that after doing a year of med school and dropping out and having a
Brock (45:04.439)
That's all right.
ron (45:29.065)
I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and I just fell into this world of cosmetics as a cosmetic chemist. So I've worked for a lot of big companies, whether it's Clinique, Estee Lauder, Revlon, Avon, Longcomb, developing products for a lot of big brands. And then four years ago, I decided to launch my own skincare brand called BeautyStat with a vitamin C serum, which is our star best-selling product that is rock stable.
Basically we solve the holy grail of beauty, which is taking a gold standard ingredient like vitamin C, which is known to be unstable and tends to oxidize. I found a way to stabilize it by encapsulating it and including it in this vitamin C serum that has become our best seller. It has a three to five year shelf life. And Brock, just so you understand, vitamin C when it becomes unstable, it tends to oxidize or turn brown.
Think about when you have an apple that's left on the counter. If you cut it, what happens? So it turns brown and oxidizes and starts to shrivel up and it's disgusting. That's what happens to vitamin C if it's not stabilized. So found a way to stabilize pure vitamin C and included 20% of that ingredient in our vitamin C syrup which delivers fantastic results for
the skin independently, clinically tested to deliver great results, fine lines and wrinkles firms and tightens the skin. It decreases hyperpigmentation and uneven skin tone just leaves the skin looking flawless in just four weeks. And that has become our best selling product. We've rolled out into a lot of big retailers here in the United States and we have a lot of great innovative products coming down the pike. And this
The excitement about our brand even caught the attention of celebrity Hailey Bieber, who reached out to me and said, Ron, she says, Ron, I love your vitamin C serum. I'm working on my own product line called Rode, and I'd love you to join me and help me build this product line. So in my spare time, I work on helping Hailey build her products for Rode while I'm working on building my own brand, BeautyStand.
Brock (47:31.048)
I saw that.
Brock (47:53.711)
And how has that been working with such a top-taste liberty?
ron (47:59.649)
It's been fantastic. She, Haley is fantastic. She has a great sense of products and ingredients. She's very studied. She knows what she wants. She knows her customer and it's been a pleasure to partner with her and help her develop her line and she's been a big fan of my brand, BeautyStat, and has shouted out how much she loves our vitamin C serum. So it's been a great synergy and partnership with her.
Brock (48:27.404)
Yeah, that's amazing. What was it like taking your stuff to market and actually launching because you're a proud entrepreneur, you're doing your thing. Obviously, that comes with no, I don't know, like help or you have to kind of generate your own momentum sometimes. How did you?
push through that, how did you overcome that? Because I know, as someone that works themselves, that you have to kind of generate your own momentum. You have to try to get people excited about what you have and what results you can bring.
ron (49:05.825)
Brock, absolutely right. I have to bring it every day. I have a team of 12 full-time employees right now, and I have to get them excited about working and helping to build my dream, my vision for the brand. And I have to make sure that I come to work every day, super excited, motivated, ready to cheer people on and steer them towards the direction of...
my ultimate goal, which is becoming this household brand where consumers can trust us, they know us, they trust that we will deliver great benefits for their skin.
Brock (49:44.58)
I also wanted to talk about your current fitness routine as well. You know, we've talked about your entrepreneurial side, but you're also heavily into fitness. You know, I've seen some of the, you know, even story highlights that you have, you know, of your own fitness and some of the posts you do. What role has fitness played in your life? And first of all, what originally got you into it? I find that very interesting because everyone kind of starts for different reasons.
ron (50:12.849)
Yeah, I've always been fitness oriented and I wasn't a an athlete in school, but I loved movement for some reason. I from an early age, I discovered the the. emotional and kind of the high that you get from physical activity. And whether that was running and then that moved into weight training I love movement and cycling.
All of those things feeds my brain and just gives me this level of awareness and peace and presence that nothing else gives me. And especially now, now that I'm getting older, I'll be honest, Brock, I'm 58 years old. So I've been a fitness practitioner and enthusiast for...
over 40 years of my life. So 40 years of weight training, aerobic activity, cardiovascular activity, and it's just part of who I am. And now that I've become this entrepreneur, it's become more important to help de-stress me, ground me, and help me manage the day-to-day stress of trying to grow business.
Brock (51:32.119)
I've got a couple of questions for you. The first one being, over the time you've been a practitioner of fitness for pretty much double the amount of time I have, what have you found that works for you and some kind of principles that you think people should apply? I know you're no fitness expert. That's not what you're trying to position yourself as. But whether you like it or not, if you're interested in something and you do it for
a long amount of time, you pick up things that you think work for you and that could potentially be principles that apply across the board. What do you think people could take from your time spent being involved in running, weightlifting, cycling, things like that?
ron (52:05.729)
Mm-hmm.
ron (52:18.437)
Yeah, I think what they could take is that if they tried it and stuck to it, they would see how much it could benefit them holistically as a, whether they're an entrepreneur or whether they're an executive or whatever type of work they do, how much it could benefit. What's interesting about me is that I'm unique in that I am an extreme in every sense of the way in that.
I don't have any issues with motivation or getting up early. By the way, I'm an early riser and that's when I have my moment. That's when I really shine in terms of getting up and being motivated to weight train and do cardiovascular exercise. My issue is that I do it to an extreme where I don't rest and recover enough. I'm really struggling with this as I've gotten older. My body wants to wake up and wants to do something, but I'm also tired.
Brock (53:06.432)
Hmm
ron (53:16.605)
and potentially over-trained as well. And I need to learn to rest, recover, and be okay not doing anything, realizing that doing nothing is also something. And I think that's what I'm working on right now. So again, quite the opposite from others that they need help motivating and getting going. I don't, I need to work on ways to relax, not feel I have to give 110% every day.
Brock (53:19.141)
Mm.
ron (53:45.713)
everything I do and I'm really feeling my, I guess the need for more balance in my fitness routine.
Brock (53:55.971)
I found that over the years, I was definitely on that side. So I used to lift weights about 12 times per week, so 12 sessions. So Monday to Friday, I would do two sessions, heavy weight lifting. And then on Saturday and Sunday, I would do a longer, still heavy weight lifting session. I was like, it's only one session, so it's fine. But that led me ultimately to...
ron (54:04.981)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
ron (54:17.186)
Right, right.
Brock (54:24.087)
creating a lower back spasm in my lower back while I was squatting and I ended up an ambulance coming to my house because I couldn't stand up, like it was very bad. So I kind of felt that and then learnt the hard way. And then pretty much from that point to now, I've been winding back my training. So I've been on a similar journey as a personal trainer because as an enthusiast, when you first start, well, this is my experience, when you first start, you don't really have anyone guiding you saying, that's too much, that's not enough, that's correct, that's wrong.
ron (54:30.457)
Oh.
ron (54:42.721)
Mm-hmm.
ron (54:52.531)
and
Brock (54:53.103)
unless you're doing your own research. I was just doing what I felt was awesome and what all the bros were doing in the gym and what the biggest guys in the rugby team were doing at my high school. So I was just copying them, doing weights that I didn't deserve to lift and lifting with form that I'd be embarrassed to post these days. So I've definitely been on this journey and I found that having this extreme of 12 weight lifting sessions or resistance training sessions per week, now I'm only doing five. I feel that I'm in a much better place
ron (54:59.105)
Bye.
Right.
Brock (55:22.843)
strength in terms of the muscle mass that I carry and also in terms of the recovery because I know what that feels like when you're when you want to go but you can't go or even physically not just your muscles but I remember my joints my elbows and my shoulders were the ones that were actually experiencing a lot of pain as well what have you been doing to try and tone it down because I found that one thing that helped me was really instead of training so much
ron (55:29.835)
Mm-hmm.
ron (55:33.246)
Yes.
Brock (55:52.155)
Even though it's still cognitive function, I would just turn it to work. So instead of training, I would do extra work. It sounds like you're also doing a lot of work too, but personally for my balance, it still feels like I'm applying myself and I'm growing. It's just not physical and it's more mental and it's towards my career in business, which made me feel happy as well.
ron (56:00.755)
Yes.
ron (56:11.049)
Rock, I'm still working on it. So let me tell you how bad it's been. I work out seven days a week for about two hours every morning. That's over training, right? That's a lot, yeah.
Brock (56:26.311)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It obviously depends what you're doing, but yes, if, if that's at the extreme intensity that I can see you just in my head doing, then yes, that's like, if you're not having at least one rest day, this is my rule at the moment, at least one complete day of rest. That doesn't mean sitting on your ass and eating Ben and Jerry's. It just means, you know, maybe one day you just walk and that's active recovery. It still feels like you're doing something, but that one day of not completely exerting yourself is
something that I'm standing by now. But yeah, seven days a week, two hours per session, that's very extreme.
ron (57:02.189)
And walking and doing two to four mile walk as well. So it's clear something's wrong with it. But yes, I'm working on it. It's one of my resolutions is to work on taking that full day off, maybe just doing a walk. Someone's been recommending that I work on just doing some mobility and stretching on that day off so that there is movement, but it's not weight training specific. It's more mobility and maybe some.
foam rolling and that sort of thing. So that's my goal. And it's been one week already that I'm into it, just taking one day off, it's a Thursday, and I hope I stick to it. That's my goal for, that's my new year's resolution.
Brock (57:44.071)
Yeah, I think mentally it's finding that balance of still applying yourself in some way because I know I'm someone that fidgets and has to do something and if I'm not, it kind of mentally affects me. I feel a bit like the clouds are coming over and it's a bit darker if I'm not exerting myself because I find freedom in that. I have this whole ripple effect theory that I think the idea of progressive overload and pushing your body to its physical limits also helps me in other avenues.
ron (57:59.825)
Yes, yes. Yes.
Brock (58:13.611)
that I really care about as well, like my family and also my business and relationships that I have and all these other things. Last question, with your routine, what were you doing? So are you lifting weights for two hours or are you doing weights, cycle, weights, run, weights, something else or what is it like?
ron (58:22.741)
Definitely.
ron (58:32.undefined)
Yeah.
ron (58:36.873)
So I do two or three body parts a week. So it's legs three days a week. And then I was doing every other body part twice a week. So each workout was an hour and a half of weights. So for example, I did an hour and a half today of leg training and then 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise at about the, with heart rate about 140, so about my 70%.
80% maximum heart rate for 30 minutes. So that's a typical leg day routine for me.
Brock (59:16.363)
So you're lifting weights seven days a week.
ron (59:19.955)
Yes.
Brock (59:21.159)
Yeah, okay, yeah, I definitely think that, you know, there needs to be some adjusting, but you know, I'll let you figure that out. You know, I'm not here to try and tell you what to do or what not to do, but you know, I definitely think that's the right direction you need to head in because it's kind of a, what would you call it, like a dark horse, the over training thing, because you feel like you're doing more so you kind of deserve more because that's what happens in other areas of life. You work more often, you attain more financially.
ron (59:24.693)
Hehehe
Brock (59:51.111)
You know relationship wise and your business grows and all that kind of stuff, but with our physical body There's a limit. You know we have we only have a certain level of Central nervous fatigue that we can handle we only have a certain amount of energy and then we only have a certain amount of cognitive Bandwidth that we can have because we often apply ourselves so hard in the gym sometimes and I've definitely felt this while starting jiu-jitsu because I get really exhausted from that because I'm fighting other men, you know, and it's very sweaty and
ron (59:57.899)
Yes.
ron (01:00:03.809)
Mm-hmm.
ron (01:00:19.477)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Brock (01:00:21.671)
I'll do an hour of weights, and then I'll do an hour and a half of jujitsu. So I'm doing two and a half hours of training. And that's full on. I sit back at my desk at work and I'm like, I just wanna sleep for two hours. It's really rough.
ron (01:00:36.902)
Right.
Yeah, but I do want to answer your question. Yes, I'm an extreme, as I mentioned, but my recommendation, a lot of entrepreneurs look to me and say, Ron, I wish I can get motivated. And my advice to them is find the time of day where you have the most time and energy to do something. Just 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Make the time to step away from your computer, your phone, and just think about you doing some sort of
and just start slow, it could be just a couple of days a week, and then build from there. So that's the advice that I give others, and the advice that I'm giving to myself, especially after talking to you, is to take the time, take the day off, step away from the computer, give the same advice I give to others for myself, and that's take some time, the reverse that is for me is take a day where to not do anything and to just relax and be in my own skin.
Brock (01:01:38.199)
That's such great advice. One thing I've been thinking of a lot lately, and we'll wrap up the podcast very soon, I know I've taken up a lot of your time, but one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is Brock Ashby as a 90 year old, and the things that I will regret doing and the things that I won't regret doing. And I've been using that as a bit of a compass for things to do and for things not to do. And I think, you know, as...
I'm not saying people have asked me for entrepreneur advice or things like that, but I think just good general life advice is to put yourself there or even to get a bit darker on your deathbed and you have a grandchild saying, what advice would you give to me? And then you just kind of like go into this place where you think of all the things that you've done and haven't done. And I think it's really nice to kind of reverse engineer your life that way because then you go, okay, I can see a...
at Brock Ashby on his deathbed and he stopped training at 30 and just got really fat. And that deathbed moment is happening at 62 instead of 95, right? So then we go, okay, we're going to keep training. And then you think, okay, then there's a 90 year old Brock who physically was able to do it.
ron (01:02:43.376)
Right.
Brock (01:02:53.859)
prioritize work too much and you know maybe that grandchild isn't there because you lost a relationship with your daughter you know, there's like all these things that I kind of play out and it's a bit of a Dark cynical game, but it actually brings me a lot of clarity because now I have more intention with the things that I want To do and I go, okay I'm gonna spend this much time with training this much time with you did sue But I also can't forget my family so I'm gonna do this and it is a balancing act and I don't believe in the perfect work life balance, I think it's
You know, there's definitely seasons where things ramp up and ramp down, but I do think there is a, you know, general kind of structure that we can have to have a, uh, I dunno, a life that's, that's worth living to us. And once again, just like our skin, that is different to everyone else.
ron (01:03:38.337)
Absolutely, totally agree, Brock. Totally, totally agree.
Brock (01:03:41.843)
Ron, thank you so much for your time, mate. I do want to ask what is happening next for you. You know, you have this company that Haley Bieber loves, it's growing, you have this vitamin C serum that's blowing people's minds. You know, you're on this journey of training hard, but yet finding a balance so that you're optimally recovering. What's next for you, man? It sounds like there's a lot happening.
ron (01:04:03.753)
Yeah, first of all, I'm taking a week off for the holidays and spending time with my family down in Florida. So I'm looking forward to being in some warmer weather and spending time with the family. And then in January, we have a hot, hot new product launch that is in a new ingredient outside of vitamin C. So that's what's coming up. So I need to rest up and be motivated and energized for a busy, busy 2020 for ahead. So I wanna thank you, Brock, for having me on the show.
And best of luck, health and happiness to you and your loved ones.
Brock (01:04:37.303)
Thank you so much, man. It's been an honor to have you on.
ron (01:04:40.682)
Likewise.
Brock (00:08.846)
All right, cool. Let's jump into it. So Jordan, how did you get into the work that you do today? You're working with UFC fighters. I see you've been speaking in gyms. You're also running train aid, which I'm a big fan of. That's how I, so I heard of you through James Smith. And then I started, well, he shared that he used train aid and I started doing jujitsu. I was drinking.
pretty much just drinking water. And then when I tried that, I felt much better, pretty much instantly. And if you're listening to this and you don't know what Traneate is, it's Jordan's hydration product that he'll talk on a little bit more. But yeah, mate, thanks for jumping on the podcast. It's awesome to have you on. And yeah, how did you, let's start off with this. How did you get into what you do today?
Jordan Sullivan (00:58.492)
Yeah, thanks for having me, I'm Brock. I'll give you the elevator pitch so I won't bore you with the long form of it. Essentially, I was at university, I was studying exercise nutrition science. I wanted to get into med school but I never ended up getting in. And so I went back to uni and did my masters of dietetics and like most students at university had no idea what I wanted to do. But all I was doing at the time was basically training and just being active.
And when I finished, I ended up running away from all responsibilities and went over to Canada because my brother was living there. And when I was over in Canada, I guess I got out of this mindset that I think I was in at university where it was like, okay, you got to do everything by the book and follow everything, you know, cross all the T's, dot all the I's. And I kind of had this freedom. And when I had that freedom, I was training at gyms over there. And I guess just by, you know, you know what it's like training at an MMA gym or Jiu-Jitsu gym.
everyone's going to compete, everyone's going to cut weight at some stage. And all of a sudden I was the guy with the nutrition degree. So guys were coming up to me and asking me. And I think it was just organically over time, because I was in this new environment and I was like, ah, you know, I don't really know too much about weight cutting. We're over here. I wouldn't talk about it too much because it wasn't my area of expertise or whatever. When I was over there, I was kind of like, whatever, like let's give it a go. I guess organically just by competing myself and then talking to guys at the gym.
I just kind of jumped straight into it and thought, okay, wow, this is like a thing that people are definitely doing. And it's something that no one really knows about. I was looking for information. There were guys like Reed Real and Clint Wattenberg and Dr. Carl Langen Evans who have been mentors for me for years. But back then, there wasn't a whole breadth of knowledge out there like there is today. So I guess I just dived in like that. And that just snowballed. You know what it's like. You start something small and then...
he says something to him and he says something to her and then all these people kind of come. And I guess looking back on it, yeah, down in Toronto in that gym was kind of like the infancy of TFD. Yeah, over time just kind of grew the knowledge, grew the team, grew the client list and now it's a bit of a thing today.
Brock (03:04.078)
And what did you learn early on from starting with weight cutting? Because as you said, there's not a, well, I'm not aware of a textbook that you could just open up and say, you know, this is step one, this is step two. And I know that you've, you know, you've released a product that actually educates on it. But when you started, was there one, a textbook of weight cutting? And what did you figure out along the way?
Jordan Sullivan (03:28.516)
No, there's definitely not a textbook. That's why we spent three years writing one because I don't want people having to go through what I went through. No, it was kind of dribs and drabs of info from, you're kind of looking at wrestling and then trying to put it together. MMA was big, but it wasn't like Conor McGregor big yet. That hadn't happened, so it hadn't really got to the UFC that we know today and everyone can relate to. So you're kind of getting dribs and drabs. It was a combination of trying to look for credible people such as, you know, Reed, Clint.
Brock (03:32.814)
I'm gonna go to bed.
Brock (03:51.607)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (03:57.812)
Carl, those type of guys. There wasn't a lot from them out. I think Clint had a book at the time specifically for wrestling. But then you're kind of looking at the other end of it and going, well, who's actually doing it? And there were guys like Mike Dolce, George Lockhart, all these guys that were working. But again, there wasn't really this balance in between where you had guys doing it practically with people hands on, but then also putting really high level science and really good nutrition knowledge into practice. So, um.
Yeah, it was a bit hard. You were kind of just grabbing dribs and drabs from everything. I think the biggest learning that I went in, and you could definitely relate to this Brock, is just doing it yourself right. I think you probably don't learn the best things by doing it yourself, but you definitely learn the bad things. And I did a lot of bad things. You know, I did keto and cut 25 pounds just doing keto, and then was super surprised when I got absolutely destroyed in this competition and got subbed in all five matches and had no energy. And then, you know, I went into a bath and...
cranked it way too hot and passed out in the bath and had my now fiance come home freaking out, being like, what are you doing? Like, and sat in saunas and dry reaching because I was so excessively overheated and all these stupid things that at the time, I didn't particularly know any better, which I feel like a lot of people like that. You know, you have a competition, you want to cut weight, and you're like, oh God, I'll just do what everyone does. But there wasn't that positive culture and positive information out there like there is today. So I guess.
dribs and drabs of info where I could get it, and then a lot of learning on the job, which kind of influenced me and made me think, holy crap, this is bad, we gotta make this way better.
Brock (05:33.462)
Yeah, I sit at 90 kg and I did a competition last year where there was an 88 kg or a 93 kg and there was it was only a gi competition. So we're talking about jujitsu here and the gi. I'm not sure how much a weight around one or maybe I don't know half a kilo to one kilo. So I would have to get to 87, which was too much for me at that time. I was probably more like 92. So I don't want to cut four or five kilos for my first competition and just get roasted. So.
I went up to 93, so I was cruising. I thought, okay, I don't have to drop anything. But usually because I have such a high calorie allowance per day, I have to get in about 3,500 just to maintain my weight. So I usually start the day with a smoothie that's jam packed with a ton of calories. It's usually around 1,500 calories just so I get a head start on the day. And I thought that's probably not the best idea to drink 1.5 liters of liquid before a jujitsu fight.
Jordan Sullivan (06:26.59)
Hmph.
Brock (06:26.734)
you know, are way more, but also I feel slightly sluggish after it. So I thought it would be OK. It would be relatively easy. So I skipped that. But then I didn't know what to eat. And then I had to leave for the competition. And then I ended up eating a sandwich out of the cafe. I was super nervous. So I didn't sleep very well. I didn't expect myself to be so nervous, but I was extremely nervous. And I usually have coffee, two a day, two or three a day. And I had one when I woke up and then I had one when I got there as well. Just because I thought.
You know, I know the research caffeine has performance benefits, but I was so nervous. I couldn't eat. My heart rate was pretty jacked up. Even just kind of walking around, just being at the competition, looking around at the fights already happening, sussing out who my opponent is. He's pretty tall. He's pretty big. And I felt pretty shit, to be honest, in my first fight. I still managed to walk away victoriously, but I knew that I didn't prep myself well. What advice would you give for someone?
Not jumping into the UFC, obviously, like your clients, but just doing a local comp just preparing for it doesn't necessarily need to be weight cutting we can talk about that after but just Getting it right feeling good on the day when you're competing
Jordan Sullivan (07:41.896)
I mean, I think you touched on so many pain points there that if anyone, or if you have any listeners that do Jiu Jitsu, probably 99.9% of them just went, yeah, that's happened to me as well. And I think it's a really common thing, right? Especially because in weight category sports, particularly things like Jiu Jitsu, which are same day weigh-ins, we call it. So you've got to go up there and for certain competitions, you literally step on the scale, the guy ticks you off, and then you go into what we call the bull pin.
which is where you go and compete, you can't come out of that. So it's like you do that and then within two minutes you can be fist bumping and going. It creates this really interesting dynamic then of, okay, not only do I not know what I should be eating to perform, I've got to do this thing where I manage my weight. It really trips a lot of people up. And I tell all new guys who are new at this sport, I say forget the second part, forget the managing your weight part because you need to remember this is a technical sport. And like you just said,
You can probably not have that good of a diet. You can probably get away with not hydrating too well. If you're technically superior than your opponent in a sport like this, you'll probably do better. If you're stronger than them, you'll probably do better. If you've trained harder for longer, you'll probably do better. And this whole thing about weight, that weight cutting that we talk about so much and you hear a lot of new guys that you just, I wanna cut weight, I wanna cut weight. It doesn't really make that much of a difference until you get quite far along your journey.
where all of those things are kind of matched. The technical prowess, the strength, the time training, all those things are a bit matched. And then something like a bit of a size differential. Maybe you can just escape that one arm bar that guy had really tight. Maybe you got a better lever. Maybe you'll pass and you'll be able to out muscle someone and get those two points and that's all. Maybe those little things when you're at a black belt competition, maybe they'll come into play. But for the most part, focus on training. Focus on training and get there and focus on eating good foods.
for your performance when you're training, and then recovery, and then fuel up when you've got that competition going there. Combat sports are funny, bro, because they're like the opposite to every other sport. You know, every other sport, say endurance running, or even football, rugby, soccer, whatever, you load up going into those sports, you fill your body with good nourishment, you carb up, you do whatever. With combat sports, it's like the complete opposite. You just rip and deplete everything, and then people are like, oh man, why aren't I performing the best? It's like, yeah, bro, you just took all the fuel out.
Brock (09:57.454)
You feel your best.
Jordan Sullivan (10:08.1)
and now you're trying to rev that thing at like 5,000 revs per minute and it's just got nothing in it. So I say to all the guys, just focus on your nutrition, focus on fueling, forget weight cutting, weight cutting can come later.
Brock (10:21.71)
I think weight cutting also makes you feel like you're a bigger deal than you are because you're doing something serious for a competition. I think I've got that vibe from people talking about it that want to do that because it feels like it's more of, I don't know, not that you're more important than you are because that sounds a bit mean, but I just, it kind of feels like you really are competing and you're taking your sport a bit more seriously when you do a weight cut.
Jordan Sullivan (10:47.056)
Yeah, that's absolutely true, and it's a good thing in the sense that, yeah, it requires a lot of discipline, requires a lot of things that are very positive to do well at sport, but I think that culture, the weight cutting culture and how we look at it is so bad and so negative in combat sports. I call it the dick measuring contest, and you see there's so much, like Muay Thai boxing, you go to a weigh-in and it's like these guys are just talking like, who cut the most weight, who cut the most weight? Like...
almost they're forgetting they're fighting or about to compete. It's like who could cut the most weight and they're just slinging their dicks around of like who just evaded death the best and it's like yeah that's cool bro like you just went to death's door and narrowly escaped but now you're gonna go into a ring or a cage or on the map or whatever and just get beat the shit out of and like what was the point like your whole focus was just making weight you've got to fight after that and I think that is a real negative we've really tried to change that a lot in the I guess call
culture of gyms and all gyms we work in, we really hammer that. If I'm at Wayne's and I see guys doing that, I'll just roast them. I'll be like, man, we know you cutting weight isn't going to be any really more beneficial until you get to the highest of high levels. All you're doing is just taking away for your performance. That's not impressive whatsoever. What's impressive is the guy that's rocked up, looks healthy, he's fueled up, he makes the weight, he can still hold a good coherent conversation, goes back, rehydrates.
and then goes into the ring the next night, or on the cage, or on the mats, whatever, and then performs 10 out of 10, you're like, whoa, that's impressive. You nearly killing yourself in a sauna, or like, dieting excessively for four weeks, and coming in looking like a skeletal, like, that's not impressive. We're fighting here, like fight, that's impressive.
Brock (12:30.934)
Yeah, that's the biggest challenge trying to fight in that depleted state. So yeah, I can completely see that why it's yeah, I don't know. People just get caught up in the in the little details recently. You, you coached Volkanovsky in UFC 294 and I was super surprised to see I've heard of dramatic weight cuts.
I don't follow UFC too tightly just because I don't want to introduce another hobby that kind of like just watching UFC that takes up mate the amount of friends that I have where their Sunday is just cleared. Pretty much from 10am till night time just cleared watching the UFC is massive. So that's kind of why I just kind of watch fights here and there. But he recently did UFC 294. He lost 12 kg in 11 days.
What was your strategy behind that? Obviously it was a short notice fight. He didn't have long to prepare for it, but what were you thinking as soon as you were notified that you had to get him ready?
Jordan Sullivan (13:33.688)
The first thing I thought was I really don't want to jump on a plane. I wish this was in Australia, but No, the first question I asked Volk was two things. I said, what's your weight? Like what's your current weight and what have you been doing because your weight will fluctuate a lot and you'd know this Brock Like maybe you go out and have a couple beers with the guys and then you go to an Asian place Maybe it's BYO. Everyone gets like a ramen and some you know
salty foods, things like that, have a couple drinks, everyone has a great time, but if you wake up the next morning and you stepped on the scale, you'd be way heavier, you'd be way heavier because you've introduced things in your body that cause a lot of fluid retention. Not only did you eat a lot of food, which has a lot of food volume, and remember, we've gotta push that through our body. We have a hole here that we shove it in and then there's a hole down the bottom that it comes out and there's a whole lot of stuff that's gotta go in between and it takes a couple days for it to get through.
So you've got all that food sitting there at any one time, you've got a bunch of food, and then you're eating all this salt which causes a lot of water retention, you're drinking a lot of extra fluids, you've got all that in your body. So basically I said to Alex when he called me, I was like, okay, what's your weight? And he was, yeah, 26 pounds or something off, but then the next question was, what have you been doing? And he was literally just on holiday. He had surgery and then he went away on holiday and he's like, man, I was just relaxing, doing what all our coaches were telling him to do. Like, man, don't train.
Brock (14:56.682)
Yeah, in the off season.
Jordan Sullivan (14:58.556)
Yeah, you need to have a break. You can't be in this super sane three mode all the time, bro. You've got to be turned off at something. And that's what he did. He listened to us. He turned off. He just relaxed with his family, had a couple drinks, went and enjoyed some good buffets. So yeah, that weight was really high, but it was artificially high, I guess. So I knew for a fact from working with Alex for years and years and years, I knew that weight wasn't his true weight. And we saw that within two, three days, I knew.
that he would lose three, four of that really, really fast. Because again, he would sweat out all that extra fluid, the salt, he wouldn't be on such a high sodium salt diet, so that would cause some fluid to come out. He wouldn't be eating the volume of food, so less food would be physically sitting in his gut. You know, he had a lot of stores, like all these muscle glycogen, it was all topped up to the max. So I knew there was a lot to go in, so the strategy then was, okay, how much are we gonna lose initially? And then...
What are we looking at? What are we looking at then? Is this weight possible? And like I said, I've worked with Alex for years and we've got a lot of data with him and I'm sure we'll get into it. Weight cutting is a funny thing because there's a period where you go through where you lose fat, but then the few days before you see them step on the scale, we're essentially just slowly dehydrating their body before we rapidly dehydrate their body in a sauna or a hot bath or when they exercise or whatever. So...
we didn't get this fat loss period. We had 11 days. So it was essentially clear everything out of the system, run the numbers, and we're in shooting range where we can manipulate fluid to get down to that weight. And it was big, like those numbers were big. And if I was to look at that with probably 99% of clients on my roster, I'd say, nah, don't do it. But Alex, I don't know if I've said this publicly, he's one of the biggest weight cutters in the UFC, and that's not.
because we prefer cutting weight or I encourage cutting lots of weight. It's just the fact that there's a lot of components that go into how much weight you can cut and how much you can dehydrate someone's body. And Alex just happens to have a lot of these factors that are in his favor. He's short, he's stocky, he's got an insane amount of muscle for his size, so he holds a lot of muscle glycogen, he holds a lot of liver glycogen, these things that we can manipulate.
Jordan Sullivan (17:18.62)
He seems to lose a lot of weight if we remove fiber like I said he seems to hold a lot of food in his gut at one time so if we can move that out if we're manipulating salt his body seems to respond really well if we lower that salt it will release fluid really well and so and lastly he's a really big sweater he's a big sweater so I'm sure you know guys if you go into a sauna you take three guys into a sauna
If you have any friends who are Asians, it seems to... They don't sweat as much. It's just a thing, they don't sweat as much. And then if you have guys who are heavies, you probably train with that guy, Brock, who you just roll one round with him and he's just drenched and you're like, dude, get off me. Or he's just dripping in your pants. Yeah, when he's in side control. So all of these things play into how much you can cut. And Alex kind of has all of them pointing in his direction. So when I looked at these numbers, it was big, but I thought, yeah, you know what? If we do this right...
Brock (18:00.85)
It drips on the face and side control, man.
Jordan Sullivan (18:16.244)
We'll be out of here.
Brock (18:19.25)
at the post that you did with his diet on the day and I just want to quickly read them out you obviously know them or you've posted them before but I'm just curious I'd love to hear why you chose these or this type of meal plan so meal one was a vegetarian omelet mixed berries snack was the frozen peanut buttercup meal number two was fried chicken spicy sour cream and potato wedges
snack was mixed berries. I think I saw a little bit of like chocolate pebbles in there. Meal three, smokey barbecue chicken and cauliflower, buffalo bites, and then dessert was chocolate ice cream. And the total calories were 2200, 100 carbs, which is pretty low for someone that's moving a lot for him. 190 protein, which I thought was quite high. And then 125 grams of fat. So I know it's quite a lot of info to take in, but why did you do, I guess, food choices like that?
and then why those calories and macros.
Jordan Sullivan (19:16.986)
Yeah, so.
A couple things will break down. So firstly, when you're cutting weight, as I said, usually these guys have eight to 12 weeks in a fight camp, we call it, or a comp prep, whatever you want to call it, where we're losing body fat. And losing body fat is very different to what we call weight cutting. When we're losing body fat, you do that by manipulating the body's energy balance or state of energy balance. A lot of people will say, oh, you've got to be in a calorie deficit. That's true, but there's a bit more to that story. You've got to be in a state of...
negative energy balances. Essentially means all of the things in your body you're burning more than what you're putting in. So we can all agree that's how you lose body fat and we'll strategically do that for eight weeks which brings these guys weights down quite a lot during the fight camp or whatever comp rep whatever you want to call it.
Brock (20:05.51)
And sorry to jump in and typically how aggressive would you go with that eight to like say you have an eight week period of where you're dropping actual body fat. Does it depend on?
Jordan Sullivan (20:16.352)
Not too aggressive. We don't go too aggressive. The guidelines our team sets is you don't want to go... Half percent of your body weight is a good amount. Maximum is 1.5% of your body weight each week. And the reason we do that is you got to remember it's not about losing weight. These guys are training two, three, four times a day and they're doing it six days a week, six and a half days a week, some weeks, and it's really intense on their body. So...
Brock (20:38.616)
Alright.
Jordan Sullivan (20:44.784)
If you're taking away calories, you're taking away not only their fuel to train, but the fuel to recover as well. So if you put them in too bigger state of negative energy balance, it puts them at risk of what we call low energy availability, which is a really big issue in sports. And that essentially just means your body doesn't have enough calories to do all of the essential functions that it needs. And so it starts rationing and sparing calories. And you see people, this happened to people who are...
not just athletes, but people who aggressively diet, and you see negative effects such as their hormones will shut down, you know, females lose their period, guys' testosterone's plummet, growth hormone goes down, all of these things that are negative start to happen because your body is rationing calories between the body systems, and we don't wanna do that because these guys are training. So you just put them in enough of a calorie deficit to hit the weight that we want to do.
We don't want to be so aggressive that our body is rationing too hard. We're going to have to ration because we're in a deficit. We don't want to ration too hard.
Brock (21:48.79)
Yeah, I do that with my personal training clients as well. I like to stick to exactly pretty much in the middle of what you're recommending. I like to lose around 1%. Obviously it depends on the timeline, it depends on people's mindset as well. Some people can handle aggressive calorie deficits. Like I'm sure with Alex, because he's such a mentally strong person, he could handle extreme deficits.
where there's some people that just don't have the, I don't know what it is. It could be grit, it could be resilience, but I think even myself, I don't like aggressive calorie deficits. I just like to slowly chug along. I did a cut recently, not competing for anything. I just wanted to pull my body fat down because I was getting a bit excited. And I only lost around four, sorry, three kilos in eight weeks. Super slow for someone who weighs, I started at 92. So that's probably...
I'm not sure what that is, but it was very slow, but I enjoyed it because I didn't actually feel like I was dieting at all. I just felt like I, I don't know, maybe had one less meal or instead of putting honey and brown sugar on my oats, I stopped doing that sort of stuff. I really like a slow cut. Have you noticed that with people that you have to work with that some people respond really well with aggressive shorter timelines and some people don't?
Jordan Sullivan (23:08.176)
Yeah, absolutely. There's always responders and non-responders and everything. I think if you really dug down to it.
If you think about what that energy balance equation is, right, like calories in is pretty straightforward. Like you said, it's just the food that you put in and you can reduce that just by, like you said, taking out the brown sugar or whatever. But if you look at the calories out, it gets more complicated, right? Like you've got your basal metabolic rate, which is the amount of energy we need to stay alive. You've got the energy to digest the food and then the different macronutrients take different types or amounts of energy to digest that food. You've got your non-exercise, which is all the fiddling around and making...
Brock (23:25.431)
Yeah.
Jordan Sullivan (23:44.198)
and coffee and go to the toilet that we do and our steps every single day and then you've got your activity. So there's a lot of variance within that and you'll generally find people, you can explain how well people respond based on those factors in their calorie out, right? Generally if they've got a much higher protein diet and they're burning more calories by using more energy, absorbing that food, they can generally handle it a bit better. Whereas if you take someone who's got a really high fat or really high...
carb diet and that's not the case, that generally helps with being able to handle it. If you've got guys that have active lifestyles, not just training but they're up and they're walking, they're doing things to sway that energy balance in their favour, they can generally handle it a bit better. Or I guess the big one is the activity, right? It's very different if you've got someone doing a 30 minute workout every single day which is great, it's absolutely fine but then if you've got someone like Alex who's training 5-6 hours a day.
it's going to dip them in such a big deficit and your body's going to feel that. Not only are they going to feel that, like I said, you've got to recover from that. And that's the big thing is the recovery. When we talk about top level fighters and getting them to a fight, it's not necessarily about who trained the hardest, it's who recovered the best during their fight camp. And this calorie deficit and how aggressive you're in it is such a huge component because that energy out part of that energy balance equation is so high.
So they could probably get away with eating a bit more and eating more calories than the average Joe does to lose weight, but they're still in a really big deficit and managing that deficit, like you said, just putting them in the lowest one possible gets them to the fight in the best shape possible.
Brock (25:28.866)
Hmm. So coming back to the food choices and the calories and macros you put them in. Yeah, what was the thinking with it? Was it higher fiber? Was it lower fiber? Were you trying to take out sodium? Were you trying to keep sodium in? I'm not sure at what point these meals were that he was having. Was it closer to the fight? Was it a bit further away? Can you can you expand a little bit on that?
Jordan Sullivan (25:55.076)
Yeah, so as I was saying, yeah, we have that fat loss phase and then we switch into what we call like our fight week or weight cutting phase. And the weight cutting is removing fluid in different parts of the body. And you can do that by manipulating intake. And like you just alluded to, there's certain macronutrients and food choices that hold on or cause fluid to be held in the body. So carbohydrates, if you eat a lot of carbohydrates and you're not doing a lot of high intensity activity, it's gonna burn it.
your body will store it away because it's good energy, it's really good energy. So it'll store it as this thing called glycogen and we'll put glycogen in our muscles and we'll put glycogen in our liver, but glycogen holds water with it. So if you've got a lot of glycogen or you're topped up with your glycogen stores, you're gonna have a lot of water. If you take away the carbohydrate from the diet or you do a lot of high intensity activity without that carbohydrate, your body will start burning into those stores because it wants to use it as energy.
This is why you see people who use ketogenic diets or go on a high fat, low carb diet. Why'd they get that initial weight loss so fast? And they go, this is great, this is so amazing. It's because they're ripping out all these glycogen stores, which not only takes out the physical glycogen, but then all the water. And for every one gram of glycogen, there's two to three grams of water with it. So you can imagine if you've got 500 grams of glycogen in your body.
That's a couple kilos you're just ripping off by simply removing the carbohydrate. You can see why people get so stoked with keto, but then it doesn't last. Yeah, yeah, but then obviously it doesn't last because you've got to be in that deficit to actually lose the body fat. And then to manipulate water, we can also take out salt or sodium or lower it, because again, sodium is what we call osmotically active, which just means it draws water, it holds on the water. So it makes sense the more sodium you have in your body.
Brock (27:26.365)
Hmm. Did I get stuck on that trap?
Jordan Sullivan (27:49.008)
more water. Like I said, if you go to an Asian or restaurant that's very salty, lots of salty food, you'll wake up holding more water and be heavier. So we take that out, get more free loss of water. Like I said, your gut will have a lot of food in it at any one point. And the biggest contributor to that is how much fiber you have, which is a great thing. Every day life, you eat more fiber, you slow that transit. It's more food, more time for your good gut bacteria to eat it. It's amazing. You should have lots of fiber in your diet, but we can manipulate that in three to four days.
and take out all the fiber and then clear that empty space. That's one to two kilos that you could be holding and Alex holds about that in his gut. And then the last thing we play around with is the actual water intake. So like you said, if you drink your smoothie at 1.5 liter in the morning, you're gonna put 1.5 liters back on. And then you're also gonna put that fluid back in other parts of your body. So if you, what we can do is we can manipulate your intake where we can either put a lot of intake in,
do something like we call water loading, which causes a lot more fluid to go through our kidneys. And what that does is it causes changes in our kidneys and go, our kidneys think, oh, there's lots of water here. I've got to get rid of it. So I don't want to upset this balance of water in our body too much. So it pushes out a lot more water. And then what we can do is reduce that. And then hopefully our kidneys keep pushing out that water, but then we've reduced our total intake, maybe 12 hours before we actually step on the scale.
and we continue pushing out that water, even though we've stopped their intake and we can get a bit more. So what you're essentially doing for those five days or so is just dehydrating the body. But you're dehydrating the body and then the last thing we'll do with Alex is we'll either put him in a hot bath, a warm bath, or a sauna and then sweat and get more fluid loss. So it's a game of slowly dehydrating the body and then rapidly dehydrating the body.
Brock (29:44.554)
Yeah, I saw that. I saw that he was wrapped up in the blanket and he was seated in the sauna. And then you got him lying down and then you put him in the hot bath and you said you wanted to raise his core temperature. Is that to increase the metabolic rate or is that just to keep him warm because you get colder as you have less body fat? I'm not really sure what the thinking is.
Jordan Sullivan (30:03.848)
So that's the very last stage of this. So we've done the food manipulation, which all of those things I just spoke about, every day, Alex is waking up lighter because we're manipulating all of those nutrients and fluid is coming out of his body. So that's why he's losing a kilo Tuesday, a kilo on Wednesday, whatever it is, every single day. But then the day before weigh-in, say on the Thursday, say we've got four or five kilos left to go.
we don't have the time to keep manipulating, you know, there's these foods. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, okay, so how do we get that out? And it's like, okay, well, we need to sweat it out. And so keep in mind that dehydration can be very dangerous. Your body is very resilient to dehydration. Like you can go 30 days without food, but only a couple of days without water, but your body can get very dehydrated in that process before you drop dead.
Brock (30:35.682)
4-5 kilos the day before. That's a lot of weight.
Jordan Sullivan (31:02.46)
But you've got to remember for these guys, this is why weight cutting is so dangerous. We're strategically and purposefully already dehydrated him for a number of days until we get to this point. So we're already deep in the desert and we're at the end part of it. And that's my job to kind of keep these guys safe and manage this whole process and then bring them back properly, which we'll talk about later. So he's very dehydrated, but now we've got four kilos left.
I can, and this is part of the strategy when he called me, is I need to run these numbers to make sure, hey, when we do this process, are you gonna be safe? Yeah, you can dehydrate your body and you can go out in the desert for two days, but you'll drop dead at one point. It's like, you need to fight for a world championship. I don't want you to drop dead. I want you to get on this weight and then we're gonna bring you back and get you back to 110% within 36 hours and then you're gonna go fight. So,
That last bit, that four or five kilos, he's laying down. We need to raise his core body temperature to start sweating. That's why we start sweating is our core body temperature sits around 37 degrees Celsius. If it goes up to about 38 degrees Celsius, our body goes, it's too hot. Being hot is dangerous because it will denature proteins. It will cause bad things to happen in our body. Sweating is one of the greatest evolutionary traits that humans have. It's caused a lot of positive things over our evolution.
What our body does then is it takes fluid from our blood, puts it on our skin, and then from there it evaporates. It evaporates off. And that evaporation of going from that liquid into a gas up into the air, that actually causes a cooling effect. It takes heat to evaporate that fluid. So it actually takes heat from the body to cool that sweat, to release that sweat. And you multiply that over millions of sweat glands over the body.
you've just cooled the body down. So you were hot and you're sweating and now you're gonna cool. But what we're doing in that process is we're maintaining that core body temperature just above what we need to sweat. So that process keeps happening. So that's why you see me putting him in the sauna and then putting him in the blanket and then wrapping him up. Because a big mistake that a lot of athletes do here is they keep heating the body. And if you keep heating the body up, you go to
Jordan Sullivan (33:22.036)
38 degrees, 39 degrees, 40 degrees, you can experience what's called overheating. And you can experience two things. Firstly, heat exhaustion, and then really seriously something called heat stroke. And if your audience is in Australia, if you have any trademates, big, big problem for guys working outdoors in the summer, right? Like, because you're not drinking fluid. So you're probably dehydrated, which means you've got less fluid to put as sweat on your body to help this cooling mechanism.
So you've compromised that, and then you're also exposed to either the hot sun or in the weight cutting sense, you're exposed to a hot sauna. So your core body temperature is going up, and then your body is not able to cool itself properly. And like I said, when that core body temperature keeps going up, really bad things happen in our body. We denature proteins. You can literally drop dead and have a seizure. You can die from overheating. So the dangerous thing about weight cutting,
Brock (34:16.45)
Hmm.
Jordan Sullivan (34:20.924)
Yes, dehydration plays a role, but our body is quite resilient to dehydration. Really, really, really bad things can happen if you get overheated really fast. And that's what you're seeing us manage with Alex. And it's obviously quite a delicate process because again, we're taking four, five kilos off in that last period there.
Brock (34:42.15)
So after that, how long until he jumped on scales, jumped on the scales for the fight after doing all of this? Is it pretty much up until he steps on?
Jordan Sullivan (34:54.152)
So we'll do this process and this will, he'll weigh in at 9 a.m. Friday and this final dehydration will start late Thursday night. So we'll start just a little bit, say at about 10 p.m. that night, where he'll just do a training and he'll sweat a little bit with training, but then we'll wake up probably about an hour to an hour and a half before that 9 a.m. weigh in, so about 7.30, and that's when we'll continue the sweating. And like I said, there's a lot of factors that.
work in Alex's favor, he's a big sweater, so in that hour and a half he can lose up to two to three kilos by sweating, which most of us normal mere mortals won't be able to do. And then he's on weight. But you don't want him to be on weight for too long because like I said, we've drastically dehydrated him in the days leading up to that, and in 36 hours time he's got to go fight for a world title. So we've got to rehydrate him, refuel him, and get him back to 100% as fast as we can.
Brock (35:51.618)
So what does it look like once he gets off the scales? What does the loading phase or just hydrating phase, getting food into him, what's that process like and what are you thinking?
Jordan Sullivan (36:04.484)
Yeah, so I guess the best way to explain this is kind of explain the reverse of what's happening with sweating, right? So again, I'll reiterate, he's pretty dehydrated at this stage. He's lost a lot of weight through dehydration and you've taken a lot of fluid from the inside and you've put it on the outside, but now we need to get fluid back in. So how do we do that? These guys, if this happened to you or me, Brock, we would just go to a hospital and they would put an IV in. They would just put an IV in.
They wouldn't put an IV of normal water. They would put what's called a saline solution, either a Hartmann solution. What that solution has in it is both water, glucose, and salt. And the reason that we have that in there is because when I spoke about earlier, when you take salt out of the diet, you release a lot of fluid, is because our body doesn't particularly know how much water it has in it. It only really knows how much salt it has in it or how salty the water is.
And that's what our kidneys is detecting. When water goes through our kidneys, it's detecting how salty that water is. So, Brock, if I grab this bottle here, and this is not a good example, this is a Traneade, but if it's full of water, and I just smash plain water, it's gonna make my salty water in my body less salty, because I'm diluting that, right? So if that goes through my kidneys, my kidneys will pick that up, and it'll go, ah.
There's a lot of less salty water here. I must have diluted my body water. So I'm gonna pee some of that out to get it back to the saltiness that I like. And that's why when you drink a lot of plain water, you'll just pee it out. You run to the bathroom really quick. But say that I was to put, say, sodium and glucose in there, like we do with Traneate and other rehydration drinks, you create a saltier solution. So when you put that in your body, if there's more salt in there,
your kidneys recognize that and they go, oh, we'll hold onto that water because there's more salt in here and we wanna balance it back to our preferred saltiness, if that makes sense. The complicated thing when it comes to weight cutting or any athlete that sweats profusely, remember we're pushing fluid from our body out of our body and now we wanna get it back in. So we have to put it in our mouth and then we have to get it back into our body and restore that ideal level of saltiness.
Brock (38:09.29)
Yeah, it makes sense.
Jordan Sullivan (38:28.164)
is that you've moved all the fluid out. So imagine you had a bottle of water that's full of salty water, and you just took a lot of the fluid out without the salt, without as much salt. You're just left with a little bit of fluid and a lot of salt, which is what happens when we sweat a lot. So it's a really, really salty solution. So what we actually need to do then is just get the fluid back in order to restore the ideal level of saltiness. And so...
That's why we use and why when you go to a hospital, you get a very particular concentration of fluid. It's not a super, super salty drink, but it's not a drink that's completely just water. It's slightly in between, because when you put that back in your body and it moves into all the areas, it's the perfect ratio to restore the ideal saltiness. And then a lot of people probably listen and go, man, what is this guy talking about? Why does this even matter?
Brock (39:11.07)
Mm.
Brock (39:25.775)
Hahaha
Jordan Sullivan (39:26.992)
And you go, well, it probably doesn't matter to, well, it does matter, it does matter to a lot of people, but if you think for the extreme levels that we're dehydrating these guys, if we stuff that up and you stuff up the level of salt in your body, you go too high or too low, you could die. And you see this in marathon running, where guys will run in really hot weather and they sweat a lot and they lose a lot of the fluid and salt and they just drink plain water.
Brock (39:33.538)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (39:55.688)
you get a condition called hypo, which means low, nutremia, which means blood salt. So you get low blood salt because you're just drinking, like I said, the plain water, and you're diluting the saltiness. Our body doesn't like that, it can't handle it. You often, and it's happened before, people have had seizures and they drop dead because they've diluted all the cells in their body, and it's super dangerous. And you see on the other end with weight cutting, and you see this in, say, the ultra endurance world where people will be
putting in two drinks that are too salty and you can go hyper, which are too much nutremia, too much salt in the blood, which goes the other way. And if you get too much salt, same thing, you can have a seizure, you can drop dead. And it's a really fine balancing act. And you really need to keep this acting and remember, we've purposely dehydrated, so we've played with this balancing act all week.
and now we need to reintroduce fluids. So the type of fluid you're putting in is really important. So as soon as Valk steps off that scale, I've got all these drinks weighed out, measured, I have a drinking protocol that's specific for him to make sure that he's putting that fluid in. He's putting one, the amount of fluid back in that he needs to, two, he's got the right amount of sodium and glucose and fluid all mixed together so he's restoring that saltiness, and three,
He's putting it in at the right rate, so he's not just sculling it all at once, he's drinking it at the right amount of time, so that his kidneys can filter it and put it in the right parts of his body.
Brock (41:30.062)
And what about nutrition? Is that just because you might think, oh, he must be starving. He might just want to go smash a lot of food and get it in, but he also has to fight. He also has to train while leading up and feel good, sleep good. Is his food similar? Is it slightly higher than the 2200 that you had him on?
Jordan Sullivan (41:51.096)
Yeah, it'll be much higher. I guess firstly, you'll very rarely find a fighter who's at weigh-ins that is craving food. And if anyone has been excessively dehydrated, you'll realize that parts of your brain that think about food shut off completely because the immediate risk to your life is getting that fluid back in. So that's what your brain focuses on. And at least for the first two hours or so, that's all we're focusing on, is getting that fluid back in. Because again,
We need his gut to be rehydrated so that he can effectively digest and absorb the food that we're gonna put in. Because we're gonna put in a lot of food. Remember I spoke about this process of taking out all these things out of his body. So we've depleted his body. When we take out that glycogen, the stored carbohydrate, for flight sports, it's a very high intensity sport. I'm sure even if you don't watch UFC, you can imagine wrestling someone, jumping on top of them, punching them, kicking them, choking them, all that.
was pretty high and dense sports. So it's like, that sport is fueled by carbohydrates and I just took all the carbohydrates out of this guy's body. So we need to restore that. But then the next challenge is we've only got 36 hours. So firstly, I need to rehydrate him and then I need to get those carbohydrates back in. And so if your rule of thumb is that we're gonna be giving him anywhere between five and 10 grams per kilo of body weight. So for Valku, weighed in at
say 70 kilos, he's gonna get five times that, 350 to 10 times that, 700 grams. And to put that just in perspective, how much carbs, like a foot long subway is about 80 to 90 grams of carbs. So we're potentially putting 10 plus subways in him just that day after that he weighed in. So the Friday, we wanna get eight to 10 foot long subs in him and then on the Saturday, we probably wanna go on the lower end of that.
We're looking at getting half that five foot long subway with worth of carbohydrates in him. So it's a lot of food that we're taking on, but we're doing that to ensure that he's got all the stores and he's got all the energy. So when he goes to compete, he's got everything he needs to compete at his best.
Brock (44:02.742)
You mentioned that just drinking water is not good enough. And that's why I moved on to train aid because I felt a lot better. Can you talk about what formula you've created to put into train aid because you've already mentioned glucose, sodium, potassium and that balance. Have you got that perfect balance in each in each tub or?
Is there a different sort of way that you went about it?
Jordan Sullivan (44:35.832)
Yeah, so I'd love to take full credit for formulating train aid, but I won't. I did early on, but I will now. I'll give credit where credit's due. So a very good friend of mine and close colleague called Dr. Louis James, he is an old school MMA lover, but he's also one of the most renowned sports nutrition researchers in the world. He's from Loughborough University. He's probably the world leading expert when it comes to hydration and athletes and sports. And me and
through our mutual love of MMA. Back in the day, if you looked at Lewis now, he looks like he's an academic and professor, but back in the day, he was a bit of a nutter and he was into MMA and used to go to these underground fight things. So he's like, yeah, undercover nerd that could really beat you up. And when he started his PhD, MMA is not that big now and it was minuscule back then. And that was his interest. And he was working with the likes of Michael Bisbing, Dan Hardy, all these big names in England where he's from.
but he couldn't get any research funding to do the research. So he had to go into endurance sports and marathon is obviously a massive sport all the way around the world. And he spent a lot of his academic career in that field. And he worked with guys like Gabrielle Cellesi, which is a Dubai world record holder, guys like Elliot Kipchoji, everyone will know Breaking Two from Fastest Man in the World, broke the two hour marathon, which we thought wasn't humanly possible.
Lewis worked with all of those guys and he did the hydration plan for them. When me and Lewis connected, we also had this mutual hate for making up these rehydration drinks for our fighters because I used to make them in a hotel room with my measuring cups, my kitchen scales, and it was like a hotel chemistry kit. I'd mix all the salt, glucose, and water and weigh it all out. I remember him saying, I know exactly what you're going through. I used to do it. He goes, funny enough, I spent years working on this research.
researching things with these marathon runners that would apply so well for this post-way-in fighting. He goes, imagine if you had the powder and you could just scoop it and it did exactly what you're doing, mixing it all up. And I went, yeah, that's amazing. But like, how would you do? And he goes, well, funny enough, I've got this sitting in my desk and no one's going to use it. He's like, the university is not interested. Like, I'll give it to you. And I went, wow.
Jordan Sullivan (46:57.032)
like, let's see if we can actually do this. So me and my now business partner spoke and said, how's this actually going to work? We took the formula from Lewis, which is a formula, like you said, of electrolytes, glucose in a particular ratio of water that we believe, and Lewis's research definitely supported, gets fluid from the body into the blood. Remember, we lost all that fluid from the blood when we were sweating. And then to ourselves in the most rapid, fastest way possible.
at least at the time, the fastest compared to anything else that was out there. And that was the formula that we put into train aid. And the reason why so many people say, oh, I feel so much better instantly is because when you're drinking that plain water, like I said, your kidneys had probably just peed most of it out. But with a formula like train aid, your body's detecting, okay, we've got this right mixture of salt and glucose and water. I'm going to keep that in. And you actually put that in your cells.
Brock (47:49.027)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (47:50.416)
and you're rehydrating your cells and that's why you feel so good because the fluid's actually getting to where you need it to go and that's why so many people will go, oh, I just drank two cups of it and I feel amazing. It's because your body's holding it and putting all that fluid back in your body where it needs to go.
Brock (48:06.506)
Yeah, your drink makes me feel so much better. And now it's, I sound like I'm just, I don't know, kissing your ass and just saying, oh, it's so good, but it really has changed the way I feel, especially so the way our structure works and probably most jujitsu gyms, we do a warmup and then we do techniques. And then for the last 30 minutes you're rolling, but before you're rolling.
you know, there's a bit of specific training and usually when I get to the roles, when I was just drinking water, I would feel a little bit, just a bit flat because also the way that I structure, I guess to give you some context, I lift weights for an hour before I do jiu-jitsu just to, just to really cram it in there because I'm not a full time combat athlete. Um, I just do it for fun, but
that just makes it more efficient for me because the gym in my weights gym and then the jujitsu gym is super close together. So it's just bang bang. And I was probably already going in slightly dehydrated as well. So it just made a massive difference. But one thing that I've been seeing a lot lately and obviously you don't need to bag anyone, but there's been a lot of hydration drinks that have, I guess, not actually been doing what they've needed to do, which is to hydrate other people because they've been
I don't know, putting different emphasis on different things like no sugar or I don't know other things. Where have other hydration drinks and once again you don't have to name them if you don't want to but where have they gone wrong?
Jordan Sullivan (49:37.392)
Yeah, I guess before I answer that, it is interesting, right? Like when I graduated university and I got my masters and did this and whatever, even up until a few years ago before I started training, I never wanted to get into supplements. That was not on my agenda. The reason we made this is because it was a need for an athlete and if you wanna do something right, do it yourself type thing. That was our thinking behind it. And going into the world of supplements was extremely insightful. It was like,
it was very confronting, I guess, because here I am, this guy that's got two degrees, I've dedicated my life to understanding the science of nutrition. I'm working with the world-leading hydration expert for athletes, and we're going into this, and then we've got all this knowledge and all this theory makes sense to us and the amount of time and effort we're putting into this drink. And then once I got into the world of supplements, you would kind of think that...
every company would have it, maybe not to the level that we were at, but at least someone orchestrated some type of scientific approach to this, where that's not the case at all. 99% of supplement companies, if it's surprising people, are made by marketing companies that have zero background in science. That's the reason why I used to kind of shy away from this when people said, hey, when I drink train aid, I feel so good and I don't feel so good when I drink.
Brock (50:41.006)
Pretty close.
Jordan Sullivan (51:02.108)
this hydration drink or this hydration drink. And I always say, well, yeah, it's because we're not marketing people. We're not marketing people. We're scientists. We have hundreds of thousand dollars of student debt that we're trying to pay off with this thing, but these guys have hundreds of thousands of dollars of marketing budget with ingredients that don't really make sense. You've got the wrong ratio of ingredients, and then you're taking out some key ingredients that are so important for hydration, like you said, like sugar, like a no sugar.
hydration drink makes no sense to me. But that's coming from my scientific background. And so going into the world of supplements was very eye opening and confronting and going, oh my God, like this is a real problem. And I guess that was a lot of the motivation to keep train aid going. When I originally set this up with Lewis and we got this formula, I just wanted to keep it for my top level athletes. I wanted to keep it for my Izzy Adesana's, Alex Volkonovsky's, Leon Edwards, because
Brock (51:33.845)
Shit.
Jordan Sullivan (52:00.22)
At the end of the day, I'm a competitive guy and I wanted to win world titles. And if I could do things and keep something to myself that would help my guys win world titles, I wanted to keep this formula that is miles above the rest and can rehydrate my guys way better than the next thing in line that all these other guys, I want to keep that to myself. But it wasn't until I really realized how bad the industry was, where I was at this moral and ethical dilemma where it's like, okay, this is kind of f'ed up that you're keeping this.
and not giving this out because more often than not these guys are doing themselves harm, especially in the world that I'm in with weight cutting, when they're rehydrating with these completely backwards drinks and they could literally put themselves in harm's way and put themselves in hospital if they do this wrong. And that's why we decided to release it out, which I'm glad we did. And it's been a big driving force for what we're doing with the company is like, we're not marketing guys. We're just science nerds that are kind of putting this out there.
Brock (52:49.033)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (52:59.412)
And I think a lot of people are kind of coming around now and more than anything, just making them question what they're taking. That's not just hydration. What's in this creatine? What's in this protein? What's in this BCA thing? And questioning, does this actually work? And is this good for me? Which I think is a really cool benefit of doing that, that I didn't anticipate at the start.
Brock (53:22.206)
I've fallen for so much marketing over the years, especially when I was younger coming into and less educated coming into I'd say bodybuilding, but I've never done a bodybuilding show but just training in general. I started off playing sports and then I started liking the training more than the sport. So I just stuck with the training and I went through everything. I've you know, I've had BCAAs all of that and there's nothing wrong with them. But I guess just.
Jordan Sullivan (53:40.724)
Hmm.
Brock (53:50.146)
putting way too much emphasis on it due to the marketing. Like I was young and there were influences that I was like, I would like to look like this person. So I'll take whatever they were holding in their Instagram photo and their caption that said it made them feel better. And their motivation was through the roof and all of that. I used to take protein and just hope that it would make me big eyes to have the, the chunkiest.
Jordan Sullivan (54:08.189)
Thanks for watching!
Brock (54:13.326)
mass gainer shakes ever. I would like triple scoop it. It was so many kind of like I couldn't even shake it because the water wouldn't mix. Yeah, I just and I think so many people have fallen for it. And it's so good that you're backing things with actual science. And I think, I think it's actually a really good time to have something like train aid because I feel like there's a thirst for knowledge with podcasts, let's say like Huberman growing.
Jordan Sullivan (54:19.259)
over.
Brock (54:38.098)
Even Joe Rogan, you know, some stuff that he shares, you know, may not be 100% accurate, more so backed by anecdote, but he, you know, he's bringing guests onto the show and there's other podcasts and, you know, yourself, I like your Instagram page where you're sharing tips on how many carbs to have if you're training for one hours, two hours or three hours or four hours. It's, it's making such a big difference. And I think that with all the education available with train aid out there, I think it's only going to continue to grow because
Yeah, it's made such a big difference in my lifting as well, I think. But even though in jujitsu, I sweat a lot more. That's where I feel more of the benefits. I did have a sneaky question just on beta alanine, because I've seen you posted about it on Instagram and I have been using it for a while. It's quite hard to tell if I feel a difference, but
Jordan Sullivan (55:23.188)
Mm-hmm.
Brock (55:31.526)
I think I do. Is it the train aid? Is it the beta alanine? Is it creatine that I take? But it's definitely helped me with roles. Can you explain what beta alanine does? Because I just feel a difference, but I'm not 1000% on the research. I've just read a study that was it was based on judo and how their performance was increased and they
Jordan Sullivan (55:45.021)
So.
Brock (55:58.242)
performed better. I'm not really sure how they did it, but I just saw that study and I was like, okay, I'm going to try beta-alanine, but I hadn't really done any more research than that.
Jordan Sullivan (56:05.624)
Yeah, I think what you're feeling is kind of right. Even if you think it works and it's a placebo, that's where a lot of these marketing companies get away. If you market it well enough and someone thinks it, because your mind's a powerful thing, if you've trained for a while, you'll realize it, especially in jujitsu or judo, your mind's a powerful thing. But at the end of the day, your supplements are the sprinkles on top of the cake. If you're eating a good diet, you're training hard, they're gonna get you 98% of the way there. All these supplements.
just add a couple of sprinkles. But some supplements add more sprinkles than other. And beta alanine is a very interesting one because it, oops, buffer our endurance. And what I mean by that is that when we get fatigued, what happens, and everyone will say, oh, we.
Brock (56:36.988)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (56:48.744)
build up lactic acid and it's the lactic acid that makes our body feel fatigued and makes our muscles burn. We all know that horrible feeling of having lactic acid. It's actually not the lactic acid itself. There's a little hydrogen, which is a little molecule that's attached, a little atom that's attached to it, and hydrogen is very acidic by nature. What happens when our body exercises and builds up lactic acid, lactic acid actually has one of these acidic hydrogens attached to it and they break apart.
acid is partly to blame because it's carrying this hydrogen into the muscle, it's the actual hydrogen attached to the muscle that makes it.
breaking off to the lactic acid that makes the muscle feel really acidic and gross and sore and everything. Beta-alanine is cool because it breaks down into this thing called carnazine and what carnazine does in the body is it sweeps up and collects those little acidic hydrogens. So if you can take more beta-alanine and you can have more in your muscle when you're creating these little hydrogens you can clean more up and have a less acidic muscle which means you have that less burning feel.
when you're doing that type of activity. With all these supplements, the thing to note about it is, one, you need to assess maybe you're getting it naturally in your diet and you probably don't need it, and super physiological doses, which means more than what the body would naturally get in food, might not make a difference. Sometimes they do, sometimes it doesn't. Things like creatine and beta-alanine seems to be the case if you're a bit deficient in your body, like say a vegetarian or vegan or plant-based athlete would be.
if you put these things back up to physiological dose, there seems to be a positive benefit for it. It's more so the fact when we do super physiological dosing, do you get an even bigger benefit? And that's where it gets a bit murky. But if you're one of these people that say, hey, you know what, I'm pretty good with my diet, but I'm nowhere near 110%, but you know what, maybe something like this could just tip you over to the upper limits of what you need, and you will get a performance benefit from it. If you're
Jordan Sullivan (58:55.268)
If you're all over it, then you probably don't need it, and that's why we call it supplement, to supplement a diet, right? So beta-alanine's a good one. We recommend it because other than it making you get tingly and feeling like you've got ants running over your face and whatever, other than that, there's not a lot of negative side effects. So even if you're good and we're not quite sure if you have enough in your body, even if we overdo it a bit, there's no real negatives. So I think, okay, well.
Brock (59:00.449)
Mm.
Jordan Sullivan (59:19.94)
If you might get a positive out of it, let's go for it, because all you're gonna do is really have to deal with ants in your pants and you can get over that and just train.
Brock (59:28.202)
Yeah, I've, I overcame that. I don't get it anymore. I'm unsure if you build tolerance, but I did split it into two doses, which is what I learned. So two doses of three grams. It was just a bit annoying to remember, but once I kind of got used to it and then I just had a bigger dose, I kind of have a tolerance to it. So I'm not sure if that works like that. And maybe you do know, but I feel better now just taking that one hit. Do you get tolerance or is that just a personal thing that I've experienced?
Jordan Sullivan (59:56.28)
Yeah, yeah, you definitely get tolerance. You think of the mechanism of what makes, we call it parasyseia, is the beta-alanine breaking down into the carnivore and going into the blood. So as long as you're going to be putting that in there, that's gonna be happening, you're gonna get that effect. So by splitting that, you're gonna get half of the effect, I guess, than what you would if you had the full dose. Do you get a tolerance to it? It's always gonna happen. Do you get better at handling that? The same way as when you got arm barred the first time.
Brock (01:00:16.567)
Yeah.
Jordan Sullivan (01:00:25.412)
it really hurt, but then mentally once you figure out what that feels like, you probably had a better pain threshold, tolerance for getting arm barred, even though we get arm barred all the time. So it's similar to that in that you probably get more accustomed and used to the feeling of it.
Brock (01:00:34.911)
Yeah.
Brock (01:00:39.922)
Yeah, okay. I have one last question and then and then I'll let you go. It's it's another question that I found on your Instagram. And this is something that I've dealt with clients personally, but it's always nice to hear someone else's opinion and how they approach it with early morning eating before training. So I'm not a huge fan of my clients training fasted. It does obviously depend on the person, but I believe that the research.
It's kind of like you may be able to build the same amount of muscle, but in terms of strength performance, you're just not going to be there. And you had some recommendations on your Instagram page around timing, you know, starting an hour before, and then you can kind of work up to eating a little bit closer to training and a little bit more. Yeah, can you just shed some light on? Well, firstly, if you believe that it is important, and if not, that's cool.
And if so, what's some steps that people can take because that because some people just struggle to eat. They're like, look, I'm just not hungry or I can't get up. I need to train at 5am. I'm not getting up at 330 or four just to eat. So what advice do you have for people like that?
Jordan Sullivan (01:01:53.54)
Yeah, I'll break it up into a few ways. I won't answer it in the audio, but the easiest way to answer this is, firstly, your stomach is like a muscle and there's this concept called training your gut and it's absolutely a thing. We do this with endurance athletes that have to exercise for five, six, seven, thirty, forty five hours straight, where you have to be taking on fuel and it's called training your gut.
and everyone can train their gut. The thing is that if you're going to the gym for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, there's probably not a lot of need for you to do it, so you just don't practice it. So the fact that people wake up and say, hey, I just can't eat beforehand, it's to me, I go, yeah, but when you were a white belt in the gym, you didn't know how to hip escape, you didn't know how to shrimp. When you first went into a weights room, you didn't know how to do a bench press. When you first went on a football field, you didn't know how to kick a football.
These are things that you just learn to do over time and training your gut is exactly the same. Your stomach is a muscle that you can train. So if you say to me, I can't eat in the morning, I usually say it's because you've put no effort into doing it, everyone can do it. Now, to be able to do it, I guess, if people are listening to this and going, okay, well, what do I eat? You wanna make the process as easy as possible. For most people, what's gonna be beneficial for your activity if it's a little bit higher intensity or if you're trying to build muscle.
Getting in carbohydrates, because those carbohydrates are likely going to be the predominant fuel source or whatever activity you're doing will probably benefit by sparing you, you sparing using the stored carbohydrates that you have. So putting in carbohydrates is usually a good idea and people go, okay, well what types? You want to get types that are very easily digestible, so simple carbohydrates or if you grew up at the same time. I did high GI.
Low GI were really big and they were all on the cereal boxes and everything else. So high GI foods, which mean they break down really fast and they get into our bloodstream really quick. So these are things like cereals, white breads, things that lack fiber, lack other things that are going to slow down the breakdown of that. A really ripe banana, some dried fruit, and a cup of orange juice. Things like that are going to, one, break down really fast. And then the second thing you need to consider is the volume of it.
Jordan Sullivan (01:04:13.64)
So you don't wanna be smashing like a subway footlong right before you go and it's gonna one, take a long time to break down, but just a lot of volume of food. But you can very easily have a Gatorade and a chopped chip muffin that'll break down really fast and it's not that much volume going in your gut and it gives you all those good carbohydrates. The very last thing I say to people is, do you need to do it? And that's a question of what your goals are. So if your goal,
is to not be a serious athlete and you don't really care about your performance, then by all means go faster. I don't really care. If you're just going there, maybe it's good for your mental health and you just want to move around, yeah, and you want to chat or whatever, or you don't have body composition goals, you don't have performance-based goals, then whatever. You don't really need to take it that serious. Just go to the gym and train and have fun and drink your black coffee.
Brock (01:04:55.266)
tick the box.
Jordan Sullivan (01:05:09.508)
However, if you're like most people who train and most people we probably deal with, if you're serious about what you're doing, you need to eat and it's not necessarily for the training session, although there's benefit to eating for the training session, one, because you'll have immediate energy to do the training session, but two, you're training to get a certain adaptation. You go and do a specific weight session or a specific cardio session or a specific conditioning session to get some response out of your body.
to either make you fitter, faster or stronger. By having certain foods and having those carbohydrates on beforehand, you help that process afterwards. You help the process afterwards because you break down those nutrients, physically build the systems that make you fitter, faster and stronger. The other thing which I believe is the most important one, which applies to you if you're either a serious athlete or you're very performance focused, is that it helps your recovery.
And if anyone's ever been in a serious training block where you're training two to three times a day, most days of the week with a rest day in between at the end of a brutal training block, you realize that this is a game of, can I rock up to this session in the best shape possible to do the workload, to do the work rate required to get whatever it is I need to get out of this session, whether it's a speed session, whether it's a strength session, whether it's a conditioning session, whatever. And one of the easiest ways to...
put yourself in the best position to do that is to eat properly around training before, during and after. So that's the process I go through with people. I go, hey, if you just don't care, if this isn't important to you, have a black coffee. It doesn't affect me, just go do it. Hey, but if you're coming on my roster as an athlete and you've got my name attached to it, I don't like losing. I don't like losing. I don't want you to lose. I want you to be good.
you're eating and if you say to me, oh, I can't really get it, it's like, okay, we need to work on that then because it's not an option. Like this is not an option, we just need to work. The same as when your coach says, give me 20 burpees or 50 burpees and you go, I can't do it, your coach will say, shut the F up and do the burpees, you'll get better at it. I will tell you, shut the F up and eat the food, you will get better at it. And it's just really a question, are you that serious about it or are you not? And most people, if you're serious about it, you should be eating before you train.
Brock (01:07:32.362)
on that training your gut thing. I definitely experienced that and I didn't know what it was, but it makes sense now. So when I was a face-to-face personal trainer in Sydney, I worked at Fitness First Market Street right in the heart of the city. And as you get busier and busier, you get really good at.
cramming in your own training sessions in gaps and things like that. But then you also get really good at, well, I did smashing food really quickly and then having to train because I would have an hour to train. But then I just done, let's say, four or five clients back to back, haven't eaten in four or five hours. It's not the best way to live life. But as a personal trainer, you just kind of getting things done. When I first moved to Sydney, I just wanted to build my client base and get really good at personal training. So I used to sometimes.
smash two burritos from Guzman Gomez and then just go straight out and train. And even if I had heavy squats, heavy deads, my stomach got to the point where I could handle it. And I would just train completely fine. Look, it probably wasn't the most optimal macro split meal frequency, blah, blah. But I, let's say, trained my gut to really push through in that time. And I actually felt really good while I was training and doing that. But I did have to work up to it.
Jordan Sullivan (01:08:24.84)
yet.
Jordan Sullivan (01:08:42.66)
Yeah, I mean the craziest example you'll see of this, of any athletes on earth are ultra endurance athletes who are going for 10 to 20 to 30 to 40, sometimes 50, 60 plus hours. So obviously if you, and they're going, like and they're going hard, they're running up mountains, they're constantly doing this. They obviously have to put fuel in and you know, we know athletes that and we've worked with athletes where they can put a burrito in every hour up.
to 30 hours, you know, because they've just trained their gut and they're burning through that fuel and they can just do that and it's incredible. But the difference with that sport is that at the end of the day, you could probably get through your training. It wouldn't be ideal and you wouldn't be optimizing your body, but you could get through like a, you and I could get through a jujitsu class or we could go lift weights and we'd get through it. We just mentally tough it out. With that sport, you can't because you're pushing your body to the absolute physiological limits. If you don't have the fuel, you're done, you're out.
Brock (01:09:30.423)
Yeah.
Jordan Sullivan (01:09:37.3)
good night Irene. So you have to train your gut to do it and these guys just show us how crazy the limitation is because it's so, so much further than what you are. And that's why I look at those guys and go, these guys are eating burritos every hour for 30 hours and Susie over here is whinging about drinking a cup of orange juice before she goes over to a F45 class. Like, gulp it down Susie and get on with it.
Brock (01:10:01.166)
So good, so good. Well, thanks for jumping on the podcast, man. I really appreciate your time. And like I said, I really appreciate the science that you put into your work and your products. And as a consumer or a fan of using your stuff, I appreciate you for what you do and also jumping on the podcast as well. I think this is gonna be super valuable to people into lifting even my clients that are having me as a coach and...
I would say no, some of the things that we talked about, but definitely not diving into the hydration and kind of weight kind of thing, which is very specific to what you do. So thanks for jumping on, man. Where can people find you online and do you want to leave them with anything or where do you want to send them?
Jordan Sullivan (01:10:41.84)
Yeah, so at the underscore fight dietitian on Instagram is probably where we're most active. We've got a Facebook, the fight dietitian as well. We do have TikTok, Jordan Sullivan dietitian. I don't tend to get on there too much. It freaks me out that world. We are on Twitter or X or whatever you want to call it. Don't really get on there too much. YouTube, we do have a YouTube account as well, fight dietitian. We put out a lot of free info. Yeah, Instagram is probably your best bet. We post twice daily and we've done it for years. And like Brock said,
Brock (01:10:54.924)
Me too.
Jordan Sullivan (01:11:10.92)
We like breaking down that science, right? Like we get, we're so privileged we get to work with some of the best athletes in the world, but to be honest, kind of helping the everyday person is a really, really big goal of ours because we see so many people struggle sifting through all this stuff and it's so, it is confusing. It's so confusing trying to find good information. And we just hope that page is a place people can go to get really, really good, simple, broken down, useful information.
Brock (01:11:36.842)
Yeah man, I can second that. Your Instagram's super, super helpful and everything you do, like I said. So thanks for jumping on, man. I appreciate your time. And yeah, thanks for coming on. Cheers, mate.
Jordan Sullivan (01:11:48.244)
Thanks so much.
Brock (00:02.55)
Welcome to the show, Dr. Mike, it's an honor to have you on. Uh, I can't, I said this before, but it's, it's like, I feel like I'm rolling with a, a black belt in, uh, hypertrophy or in personal training and fitness as a humble blue belt that I am, um, you know, it's, uh, it's very rare that you get to have conversations like this. I was stoked that you agreed to come on, uh, for anyone out there that doesn't know you.
How would you explain what you do, who you are, in 30 to 60 seconds?
Mike Israetel (00:36.206)
Geez, oh thanks Mark for having me on. Dr. Mike Isertel, I have a PhD in sport physiology from East Tennessee State University. I'm a professor of exercise and sports science, and I'm a co-founder of Renaissance Purnization, which is a company that.
We do coaching, we have apps, we do digital products, we do a lot of information stuff. I'm on YouTube talking about stuff all the time and I'm a competitive bodybuilder and competitive Brazilian jiu-jitsu grappler. And I'm sure I'm leaving something out, but that's just about the gist of it.
Brock (01:08.674)
been watching your YouTube channel a lot recently. Have you really ramped up your posting on YouTube or is that just what I'm seeing now because I feel like there's new videos almost daily and they're lengthy 30 to 45 minutes sometimes.
Mike Israetel (01:22.83)
Yeah, we've been doing that for some time, but about a year ago, we increased the amount of videos we're putting out. Just by one, you know, we used to put out four videos a week and I think it's about five. But
We're also putting out kind of videos that are slightly more popular, less technical and more comedic in nature. And then, so I think those have caused a rise in our popularity on YouTube. So that may be why you get more of me in the recommendation algorithm.
Brock (01:45.707)
Yeah.
Brock (01:54.15)
Yeah, I think judging by the comment section, people are much more excited about that. You know, you're like kind of pulling apart celebrity workouts. And that's one thing like I wanted to actually ask you about. Why do you think there's so much fluff and so much? I don't know. Shit, that doesn't really make sense in the celebrity workout Hollywood area where I feel like this could be an opportunity for people.
Even like yourself, I'm sitting there wondering why isn't Dr. Mike training these people? Why is there so much, they have unlimited resource, they have unlimited access to potentially great coaches. Why is there so much bullshit in the, I guess, Hollywood fitness industry?
Mike Israetel (02:40.718)
Yeah, because they don't have unlimited resources. And one of the biggest resources is you can generally term it as intelligence, but really more specific terminology would be the knowledge and wisdom to select the best person to contract for a given job.
So for example, like you're very successful in your own, right. And when you hire people to like, Fix the roof in your house, or you hire someone to fix your sink because it's broken. How good are you at ascertaining who the best people are to fix your roof or who the best people are to clean your sink? How much do you know about evidence-based roof making and who really the leaders in the field are, but who's really just really good at marketing. And you're like, well, yeah, there's roofing company that's my friends used. You know, that seems okay. Good enough. Seems like it checks the boxes.
Brock (03:14.581)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (03:28.544)
And so if you don't know a lot about plumbing or a lot about roofing, even if you're smart and have, you know, lots of money and lots of fame and influence, you can make very terrible mistakes in selection. I mean, imagine if the rock or something bought like a muscle car and like a dodge challenge or something.
And a lot of technical car people would be like, dude, my God, for your money, you could have bought something so much more effective and so much more comfortable for your needs. And actually even the model of challenger you got, you didn't even mod it properly. And then you would ask them, well, how would he, how would he know that? So when celebrities make not so great choices in their workouts, they make not so great choices in a variety of other endeavors. I mean, uh, we could judge them all the way down the line. There's celebrities that, you know, they get caught in pictures, just walking around Hollywood and their fashion.
Brock (04:05.046)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (04:18.504)
terrible and just like look like peace like homeless people or something and you know people who at the high end of fashion but like literally this person has access to the best fashion designers in the world why wouldn't they get a tailor to just make their stuff it's nominally pricey to them
Brock (04:21.32)
here.
Mike Israetel (04:31.646)
And say, well, like, this is a human being who makes choices based on the same kind of bullshit heuristics the rest of us do. And celebrities are known for many things, but a much higher degree of analytical thinking or raw intelligence or respect for science, this is not one of them, you know, like Ashton Kutcher. You know, is he like some kind of like Sam Harris in disguise? No, absolutely not. So, you know, like you would not expect him to make evidence-based choices. So when people ask how come celebrities often has such terrible workouts, they're just kind of a cross section of the rest of them.
Brock (04:55.499)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (05:02.48)
most Americans and most Australians and most New Zealanders you've been to the gym before they're doing dumb shit all the time and like celebrities are just like everybody else
Brock (05:08.302)
Yeah. Mm. I actually went to school in New Zealand. Uh, I moved over to Australia. Um, and yeah, even that, like I went to one of the, it was like a prestigious. High school, a lot of all blacks came out there. I originally went there for rugby and yeah, I was still doing, I was like 14 years old when I started, I was trying to shrug 200 kilos just cause that's what I like lower back pinching. But.
Mike Israetel (05:32.334)
Welcome to the club. Everyone tried that.
Brock (05:37.846)
It's what the first 15 rugby boys were doing, so that's what I was doing as well.
Mike Israetel (05:38.086)
Oh yeah. Whatever. That's it. You got to get it done. Exactly. So yeah, celebrities are just like famous people, man. You're like, you know, when you see a celebrity drunk and...
getting pushed into a limo by his driver because he's just yelling racial absurdities. You're never like, oh, like how could this celebrity have like, why is he, you know, such a terrible drunk? Like it was just like that's what they do, you know, like celebrities get into all kinds of crazy shit because they're just normal people. So when you tell someone who's normal but has a shitload of money, pick a trainer, they're often gonna do the same things most of us do. Like I don't know anything about computers. If I go into a computer store, I just like whatever the salesman says to me that sounds somewhat reasonable.
Brock (06:04.192)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (06:18.704)
my goals of like I can do PowerPoint on this yeah I'll buy it and a lot of times people computer evidence-based computer people could be like oh my god like Mike I thought you knew better it's like what I didn't so uh yeah celebrities don't have any kind of special insight I don't think and a lot of times it's like the studio recommends someone or their friends will recommend someone and a lot of the ways that recommendations occur
Brock (06:20.006)
Mm.
Brock (06:24.256)
Mm.
Brock (06:33.328)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (06:42.278)
is based on human characteristics, human qualities. If you train with a trainer that's just really cool and down to earth and really funny and a couple of other celebrities have trained with him before.
You'll get him as a recommendation. You'll meet him and you'll think this guy's great. And when he explains to you why we're doing certain things, it's all sounds plausible, you know, like, Oh, well, the core is really important. Okay. Of course. Of course it's the middle of my body. How could it be not unimportant? If you said, you know, the pinkies were very important. You'd be like, okay, that's strange. But, uh, all the stuff passes the smell test. Generally, if you just have no idea what you're looking for, you know, like if someone was to talk to you about like, Hey, like pick a great store for floral arrangements and what makes a good floral arrangement, you'd be like, no fucking clue.
Brock (06:58.635)
Yeah, yeah
Brock (07:12.431)
Hmm.
Mike Israetel (07:20.432)
Someone who's maybe good, maybe not good at floral arrangements can tell you, well, it's really about color balance and symmetry and some kind of flowers generally people like to see in the middle, some kind of flowers on the outside of an arrangement. You'd be like, okay, yeah, great. And you look through their Instagram and they got pretty flowers on every picture and you're like, it looks pretty to me. So think about, you know, the average trainer doing stupid exercises. He's got some clients with good genetics that worked hard at it long enough, they got great results. You know, yeah, it's going to be me. So that's it.
Brock (07:30.979)
Sounds legit.
Brock (07:34.97)
I'm sorry.
Brock (07:43.321)
Mm.
Brock (07:46.886)
Yeah. One thing that I've like, I've watched you critique some of those workouts and even just what I learned from you in general first was you're a huge fan of the slow eccentric of the big stretch. And I'd love you to kind of talk about each portion of the rep, eccentric, isometric, concentric, um, with focus on the eccentric because like, actually I posted a, a workout the other day and
Some person posted like, oh, I appreciate you doing slow eccentrics. It was like a really niche comment, I guess. Yeah. Like I appreciate your slow eccentrics. A lot of fitness influences, just drop it down and then, you know, they're like pushing heavy weight. Um, but yeah, why is it so important? And what's the difference between the eccentric and, you know, the isometric or concentric?
Mike Israetel (08:22.21)
very niche.
Mike Israetel (08:40.81)
Yes, the first thing I'll say, it's not very important. It's just a little bit important, but it's one of these things that if, if you know it and you do it, it's such a huge trade off in the side of the beneficial, and this is almost no downside that it's kind of like a real easy thing that you can do it. Uh, I'll give you a, what's a good analogy. Um, you know, if you've, if you're cooking food, but you've never used like salt, onions, or garlic.
And people are going to be like, dude, it's not rocket science. Just do it. And you're like, why? What's the complex reasoning? You're like, it's just going to make your food taste better. And you try it. You're like, Oh, and these things are so cheap and it's so easy to put them in food. What have I been doing my whole life? Now, can you eat food without onions, garlic and salt? Yeah. Can you have food taste pretty good? Sure. There's ways of doing that, but like, why go out of the way? So the eccentric research seems to indicate that.
it might be a little bit more of all the three parts of the movement, the eccentric being the way down, the isometric being at the top or bottom of the lift, and the concentric being on the way up. The eccentric seems to be probably a little bit more impactful for hypertrophy, but there are better reasons than that, because you look a little bit more, but if I do less eccentric, I can do more concentric reps because I save my energy. That's totally true.
Slower E-centric has a couple of other benefits that are really, really awesome, and just kind of like, once you know them, you're like, oh shit, why wouldn't I use this? One of them is that E-centric part of the lift doesn't take as much nervous system drive.
So actually tires you out less. So if you have a set on which you are mostly riding out, slow eccentrics and then quickly doing the concentric and then slowly riding out the eccentric, that set is going to fatigue you less than a set in which you're dumping the bar onto yourself and just crushing out as many concentrics as you can, like CrossFit style. That shit is hard. Like it actually just beats you up more from a nervous system perspective. You have to try harder. Your nervous system works harder on a concentric phase than eccentric, which is why EMGs, the little sensory pads they put on
Mike Israetel (10:45.68)
muscular activity don't seem to detect a whole lot of activity or nearly as much in an eccentric phases and a concentric. And then they say, well, this doesn't activate that muscle as much. Like, well, it sure as shit does, it's just not through the nervous system, but the muscle uses its own passive tension and its own internal tension. With some degree of activation, you can get a ton of force throughput in an eccentric, which means it's a very efficient way to train, a very economical way to train. For how hard you have to try, you get bigger benefits from the eccentric. So that's a big deal. Like, shit.
Brock (10:46.902)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (11:15.7)
nearly as hard. Like I did all the work to get the bar up here. Why don't I catch all the growth I got coming to me by taking it down slowly and also it's going to tire me out less so I can do more reps and more sets to get the same effect. And then in addition to that a slow eccentric minimizes injury risk because injury risk is quite high if you really rapidly change at the bottom or dump the bar and it gets off position.
Brock (11:27.019)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (11:37.398)
But a slow eccentric keeps you in a very good position. It lowers the velocities of movement, and movement velocities are one of the most correlated variables to injury. Like one of the most injurious sports is the sports of cheerleading in America.
Why? Because when the girls are tossed basket tossed style and come down 10 meters, your velocity hitting the round at 10 meters is like insanely high. It's higher than you would be able to propel yourself. Your ass is getting hurt for sure, but if you're lowering even hundreds of pounds slowly in an eccentric and you push back up, usually you're just like, I just can't do this anymore. I'm not going to get hurt. But you get the more dynamic something is, the more injurious it is. So if slowing the eccentric maybe grows a little bit more muscle rep for rep.
definitely requires less effort neurologically to train just as hard and minimizes injury risk at least a little bit. I'm talking about all right there's three benefits and then you say okay what are the what are the what are the downsides? You get fewer reps in a set? So
Brock (12:39.03)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (12:39.954)
I don't know, like the girl over there that's just counting your reps. She's like, all right, if he gets 15 reps with this, I'm for sure giving it up. I'm just going to pull them into the bathroom. We're going to do this, but if it's 14 or less, I'm never going to speak to him again. That doesn't happen. Nobody cares. You know, the Jurassic park meme, the fat guy from Jurassic park, he's like, see, nobody cares. Uh, that's just it.
Brock (12:51.876)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (13:00.286)
So it ends up being like there are really no downsides from hypertrophy training perspectives and just like small notable upsides, but there's like three of them. And then that adds up to like, this is a really good idea. It's more, um, imagine you, um, were, you saw someone walking around with no shoes.
Brock (13:11.482)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (13:19.71)
And you were like, have you considered shoes? And they're like, is it going to change everything completely? Will I be able to get to where I need to go faster? You're like, no, but trust me, you put on some shoes, they got to make it more comfortable. Your feet don't get hurt as often. Your feet probably won't get hurt very often if you have nice souls, but every now and again, they will just put on some shoes and see if you like it. And they're going to put on some shoes and be like, bro, this is the next level. This is awesome. And you're going to be like, see, it's not night and day, but it's just better. It's just better.
And so, like, why not do it? That's my, that's just generally my thing. And with injury, if you can bring injurious down a little bit, like, who wants to get hurt? Why would you want to get hurt? Now, I would understand if there was a nuanced discussion of, now look, like, quick eccentrics have some upsides. But for hypertrophy training, gee whiz, they just really don't. You know, it's like if it's all positives and basically no negatives, it's like having friends over and they're like, why isn't your food flavored? And you're like, should I consider flavoring my food? And they're like, yes.
Brock (13:58.202)
Mm.
Brock (14:07.746)
Hmm.
Mike Israetel (14:19.724)
The downside is it costs a dollar to buy food flavoring, and the upside is like a million times bigger than that, so... Ta-da!
Brock (14:27.522)
So what about the soreness aspect of training with slow eccentrics? Because I personally feel that to be much more doms, like in my, like for example yesterday I did a push workout and my chest is like screaming. Yeah, it's really sore because at the moment I'm doing four to five seconds, like on the way down to really try and emphasize it. Like is that a trade off that you consider?
Mike Israetel (14:38.284)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (14:44.014)
blown up. Yes.
Mike Israetel (14:54.676)
Yeah.
Brock (14:57.73)
because I definitely don't feel as sore when I have like, let's say a two second lowering of the weight.
Mike Israetel (15:02.93)
Yeah, no, I don't. I think that is indicative of a good thing. And because there's not a ton of direct literature to confirm this yet, I have to be very careful I have to say this, but I suspect that the growth benefit of slow recentrics is actually quite modest, not just small. And I think that reflects itself in the degree of soreness that you get. I challenge you to think of a situation in which more doms doesn't correlate to more growth.
Brock (15:25.067)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (15:31.422)
Have you ever heard of a situation in which someone's getting more doms, but that doesn't correlate somehow to the mechanisms of more growth? So for example, people will say, people used to say, well, doms is just something you get if you're novel, like new to training. So, okay, who grows more from training? People new to training or people who have been training a while? Okay, new people. Okay, sweet. Sounds good.
Brock (15:51.598)
Yeah, that's a great point.
Mike Israetel (15:53.278)
Another one is like, um, you can see if you targeted the muscle properly, if you do a lot of slow subjects for your biceps and you don't get sorted, be like, I really use my biceps in this. And maybe it's just forms, you know, sometimes you curl and it's just mostly forums and you're like, ah, another one is like people used to say, okay, at long muscle lengths training in a stretch really gives you doms. And that's kind of a curiosity of training at a stretch. So don't worry about doms cause it's just something that happens when you stretch or when you're new.
Brock (16:14.19)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (16:18.266)
But now we learn that training at a stretch is superior for hypertrophy. This is good.
and it also conveys a lot of domes. So I'm not saying the more domes you can get the better, but if you're getting some good robust domes from doing even less of the work or just the same amount of work, you're probably getting more growth and that's a really great thing. Can you imagine if I'm all Dr. Mike and shit and you see my videos on YouTube and shit and you're like, I'm gonna try the slow eccentric bullshit, I'm gonna try it. And instead of you getting more sore from it, you got less sore, you got less tired, you didn't feel like the muscles were really trained all that hard. Would you be more likely to be like, yeah, this is awesome, I love it? No, you'd be like, I don't know, it's not quite hitting the spot.
Brock (16:25.442)
Mm.
Brock (16:33.178)
Hmm.
Brock (16:47.381)
Mm.
Brock (16:53.661)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (16:53.724)
But if you get really, really sore in your quads from doing it or your triceps or your chest, you're like, man, some shit happened to my muscles. This definitely fucks up my muscles a lot. And if you're saying, oh, I'm too sore, why don't you just do fewer sets? Then now we have a really amazing thing. You do fewer sets and you get as much growth as you used to be getting doing more sets. And you don't have to try as hard from a nervous system perspective because the concentric is more difficult than the eccentric. It might be actually a pretty big deal all around where it's like, you know, something's just so goddamn good. You don't need forever of it to make you super.
Brock (16:59.584)
Mm.
Brock (17:05.039)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (17:23.503)
happy. You know what I mean?
Brock (17:25.29)
Yeah, I'm doing less sets than I've probably ever done before. And I feel like, yeah, I'm getting, well, it's hard to say because it's a new phase of training. It's like a new mezzo that I'm doing. It's hard to say that I'm, I'm growing the most I've ever grown, but as a, you know, yeah, as a person that's lifted since I was 14, it's pretty hard to find those extra, you know, those extra things that are unturned. So, you know, it's feeling very good.
Mike Israetel (17:35.307)
Yes.
Mike Israetel (17:39.5)
You can't say that. Totally.
Mike Israetel (17:47.826)
Yes, but your proxies for how your exercises are making you feel, how your workouts are making you feel are definitely trending in the right direction. I mean if you like have to do less work and you get just as fucked up in the target muscle but your joints feel good, your nervous system feels good, this is a really good sign. If this keeps going I might see at least comparable growth for less effort or even more growth if I can recover from it. You know what I mean?
Brock (18:09.965)
Mm.
Brock (18:13.314)
It's just very challenging mentally as well, because you're like, like you feel like you should be smashing yourself harder, especially if you've trained in the gym for a while, you're like, you know, I'm doing three sets of eight, five seconds down, one up. And you're used to doing, you know, whatever, what I did when I kind of like originally started the whole, you know, you do five by five or you do six sets of six and you're absolutely crushing the bench press. And then, you know, now you're doing three sets of eight and walking out and you feel, you know, just as, just as good, you know, obviously it.
Mike Israetel (18:20.755)
Yes.
Mike Israetel (18:31.578)
yeah 20 sets of everything yeah
Brock (18:42.986)
It feels like a more intelligent way to train on the aspect of, of joint pain. I did want to kind of chat to you cause you, you know, you're, you're grappling and I'm relatively new into, I'm only a couple of years in. Um, but I, I do get slight elbow tendonitis. Um, and that really screws up my kind of pull ups and bench and things like that sometimes, which is just frustrating. How do you manage? Um,
Mike Israetel (18:55.412)
Okay.
Mike Israetel (18:59.7)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (19:10.186)
Yeah.
Brock (19:13.17)
your like personally your grappling and your training because you're training a lot. You're I'm not sure how much you do jujitsu but you do mention that you do it quite frequently. How do you manage it yourself if you get any of that?
Mike Israetel (19:22.462)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (19:28.286)
Yeah, so say I have at least three recommendations. One is train with weights in the day before you do jiu-jitsu. If you do jiu-jitsu first and train with weights sometime after, and that same day you're like, you're just not a starter. Your elbows are going to be like, bro, nah.
Brock (19:42.907)
Yeah, I have to do that. Like, I have to double up. So I do it before. I have done it after when I'm desperate, just to get in some training. But man, even body weight pull ups, you're like, mate.
Mike Israetel (19:46.654)
Yeah. How to feel. Bro, it's terrible, right? Dude, you're like, I can't do pull ups anymore. That's it. And Jiu Jitsu finally broke me. That's it.
Brock (19:58.614)
Like I just found myself just circling around machines because it was easier. So I did no, I was just like, I'm chest pressing, shoulder pressing, lap pull down, seated row, I'm out.
Mike Israetel (20:01.78)
Yes.
Mike Israetel (20:05.674)
Yeah. 100%. So definitely lift before. Another recommendation I have is to drill, maybe not necessarily drill, but some combination of drilling and positional sparring more than you do live sparring.
Because live work, just going to submission, is very, very effective and very necessary. But especially for folks that are beginning, folks that are working out their game plan, they need lots of repetitions of the same thing. So lots of drilling and lots of positional sparring. I think as most people don't like those as much as they do live rolling. I mean, the ideal white belt jiu-jitsu class is that coach just like blows a whistle. It's like, all right, 40 minutes, just try to kill yourselves and hit it. And you know, everyone loves that. But you don't really learn a whole lot. And this is so difficult for the body. It's full on combat.
Brock (20:36.362)
Mm.
Brock (20:51.224)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (20:51.664)
It's going to beat you up more so you can get a better Stimulus to fatigue ratio from jujitsu training. If you do more drilling and more positionals, my wife and I train together right now at, um, at jujitsu. And we train basically three times a week, most weeks. And, you know, we only spar once a week for now, but our jujitsu game is just continuously elevating cause we drill the other days and drillers make killers. You know, like that's the thing wrestling came up with. And it's just as true for jujitsu. Um,
Brock (21:13.186)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (21:21.222)
So that's a really good idea. And the other thing is I would say when you're rolling, and this is a difficult to do when you're a white belt, but it'll get easier to do as you mature, as you try, um, is to treat your roles as opportunities to exhibit technical prowess and cap your use of your strength until you're at a competition. And then in a couple of weeks leading up to the competition, really ease up on your lifting, start to crank your intensity and training a little bit higher for jujitsu and try harder, and then you'll be ready to try hard, but all of
Brock (21:35.831)
Hmm.
Mike Israetel (21:51.096)
been there from trying not so hard physically so here's what I mean by that if you're let's say doing some kind of pass in the gi, do you do gi or no gi? No gi, sweet.
Brock (21:59.53)
I prefer no-gi, but I do the occasional-gi. It's kind of become a joke now that I'll just kind of show up to gi, but yeah, I just prefer no-gi. Yeah, like coming from rugby and just, the more dynamic elements of it, I prefer it, but I do both.
Mike Israetel (22:07.458)
show up in the game, get collar choked by somebody.
Mike Israetel (22:15.582)
Yeah, you just want men that are shirtless coming from rugby. You're like this geek covers up too much of the man that I want to touch. This is gross. So let's say no, you know, you're kind of pushing a pass together and the person's resisting and they're kind of following up and trying to hook your legs and keep their guard.
Brock (22:19.571)
Exactly.
Brock (22:23.234)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (22:35.478)
and you could get the pass if you simply like pulled harder on their shoulder just because you're fucking jacked and strong and you can get the pass doing that but if you don't do that they're actually too technical for you because they're weaker and smaller but maybe they're a blue or purple belt and they're too technical for you to take to get the pass just on like smooth technique
There are two ways to get around that. One is you just fucking grind them and you get the pass. Two is you give up the pass and try to work for something else that you are technically proficient in advancing on.
One of those lets you win the match and advance the position, which is cool. Congratulations. So pat on your own back, but also it fucks up your elbows because it just grinds on a man like grinding is what hurts you, not Jiu-Jitsu. Um, you know, not a lot of people get hurt doing break dancing, but even the looks even more intense than Jiu-Jitsu, except there's nobody resisting you in break dancing. It's just you by yourself. So very low injury rate. Those people don't really complain about any kind of joint pain or anything. Generally sure. Shit, not elbow pain, but Jiu-Jitsu man, you're pushing people away.
Brock (23:15.733)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (23:36.264)
pulling people, you're using one arm to grab something and move around it, and when you're in the fight-or-flight situation, like you can grind your out joints real hard doing that stuff.
Brock (23:45.122)
Hmm.
Mike Israetel (23:45.942)
But if you say to yourself, look, if I can't get this with good fluid technique at 50% of my maximum strength, I don't deserve to get it because I don't really know things. Jiu-Jitsu isn't about how strong your body is. It's about how much you know of how to move your body. Anytime you want, you can take your strength and start using it. And then you're a fucking killer. Imagine if like some girl in your class who weighs like, you know, 55 kilos or something, and she's tall and lanky and you're like, but she's like a black belt and she's just a star technician. You can beat her right now.
Brock (23:59.242)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (24:15.876)
you could just smash the living fuck out of her. Fine, amazing. But imagine if she's took a magic pill, her jiu jitsu technique didn't change at all, but now she got your strength. Oh my God, dude, she'd go to Worlds and fuck everyone up. Like, that's it, it would be game over, because she's worked on the most important part of jiu jitsu, which is the technical ability. You are that girl, except your technical ability sucks, and you have the muscles already. You're that girl in reverse. Cool thing is, is if you train to increase your technical ability, your strength's always gonna be there. So for the last little while in my training,
Brock (24:17.773)
Mm.
Brock (24:27.118)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (24:45.856)
I'm working on flow and technical and getting to the right places. Because when I have to turn up the strength, it's always there. But if I always turn up the strength, both fuck up my elbows and shoulders, and I don't learn a ton of technique. Because someone's like, you got that pass. And you're like, I sure did. That's the wrong way to do the pass. You're like, but it worked like no shit. If you have a bulldozer run over a car, it's the wrong way to pass on the freeway. But it still works because it's just fucking that big. You don't learn anything. You know, like if you if you have a tank and you just drive it across the racetrack and crush all the other race cars and you win the race.
Brock (24:56.927)
Mm.
Brock (25:10.251)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (25:16.596)
You don't actually know how to race. You're just driving a straight line. Other cars just blow up when they touch you. You don't learn anything. With Jiu Jitsu, backing off if you're stronger into such a way that you never hurt your joints, you just make your elbows after practice, they feel great. Which means, look, if you're up against a stronger guy, a bigger guy, and he muscles you, you've got to lose. You've got to lose the position. You've got to lose the match. You've got to tap more often. But when people get a big ego about beating you, that's all in the gym. It's all good. Because when you're peaking for competition,
Brock (25:20.462)
Mm.
Brock (25:39.542)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (25:45.636)
you're going to turn it up on that same person and they're going to fucking lose to you and they're going to be like, holy shit, you got a lot better. Be like, nah, man, I just never really try all that hard with my strength. And that seems like a cocky thing to say, but like you just beat them. So clearly you had some other shit up your sleeve. You know what I mean? So my best recommendation there is like train before you do jiu-jitsu, drill more, do more positionals, less live rolling. And when you roll live, don't try to crank on people and use white belt energy. Just try to be technical and smooth so that you'll never get in a position where you even really taxing your joints a whole lot.
Brock (25:52.419)
Mm.
Brock (25:58.554)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (26:15.536)
Thanks for watching!
Brock (26:16.15)
Yeah, I've definitely been trying to work on that. I heard of the idea maybe like six months ago when I was, or maybe a year around positional sparring, you know, starting in disadvantageous positions and then kind of working your way out. That's, and now that's actually been one of my favorite ways to train. I guess I've kind of looked at it similar to training, you know, lifting weights. It's about technique. And
Mike Israetel (26:31.014)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Israetel (26:39.87)
Yeah. Well, imagine if you use that opposite philosophy with weight training. Someone's like seeing you do a tricep pushdown with 100 pounds.
And they're like, can't you lift more? We're like, yes, I can put 600 pounds on the rack deadlift and pick that up for 10. But like, that's just me using my whole body like an idiot. I'm not targeting what I want. Technique in Jiu Jitsu is the same thing. Can you pick someone up and smash them in Jiu Jitsu? Sure, totally. Unless they're really big and strong. And then if they know more technique than you, you have zero weapons. You don't actually know anything. But if you focus on your technique, it doesn't look as impressive. But once your technique gets really groovy, if you're strong and you have good
Brock (27:02.424)
Mm.
Brock (27:11.105)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (27:19.552)
technique, dude it's lights out. You ever roll against people who are strong, big and had good technique? Like it's not a fun time for anyone because you truly feel trapped. Like you're like, oh my god I have nothing. I have nothing to go to. I can turn up my strength. They're nullifying that and their technique makes it seem like they're just not even fucking trying. So that's where you want to be and as big and strong as you are, give it another seven or eight years, you're going to have a black belt and you're going to be that big and strong if not bigger and stronger and then you'll be a real pain in the ass if you learn the techniques from now until then.
Brock (27:25.475)
Hmm.
No. Yeah.
Brock (27:38.074)
Mm.
Brock (27:47.548)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (27:49.672)
But if you just get promoted by beating people up and having just a couple good moves and you just smash people through, you're never really going to be that good. Other black belts will beat you up and you'll be confused as to why.
Brock (27:59.102)
Yeah, you mentioned the Stimulus to fatigue ratio. I've never thought of it in terms of jujitsu, but you were the first person that I heard that from around hypertrophy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure. Like when I first heard it, I was like, oh, well, you know, this is an idea that I've thought about, but not, you know, ever put a name to, not trying to say that I could have, you know, thought of it, but like, it makes sense. You're like, oh.
Mike Israetel (28:09.838)
I think I made it up. Yeah. I think I made it up.
Mike Israetel (28:21.998)
Sure. No, you sure did. I think it's really obvious. Yeah.
Brock (28:27.758)
the exercise that gives you the most for the least, pretty much.
Mike Israetel (28:30.946)
Yes, we do that in the rest of life Stimulus to fatigue ratio isn't some kind of big discovery invention of mine. Uh, because it's just a modification of the cost benefit formula from like economics or just home economics, you know, just like being a human being. You're like, like if some, if some, this is a terrible analogy, is it okay if I say something not as a kind of some, something a little racy, you can edit it out later.
Brock (28:42.714)
Mm.
Brock (28:51.262)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm like in ingredients with the comments on YouTube. I think it's the best part of your videos.
Mike Israetel (28:58.326)
cheese. All right. If you're a, let's say you want to like, you know, you're, Let's say you're single and you're chatting with a girl or a guy or whatever, it's 2023, right? And you're chatting with them in the DMS and they're like, why don't you come through and we'll hang out. You know, like the benefit there, the Stimulus is like, are you going to get happy, touchy fun times?
The cost is like, well, how far do they live? Because you know, if you're in, uh, in Melbourne and someone, you know, on the other side of Melbourne is like, Hey, you want to come through and do shit? You're like, yeah, fatigue is going to be low. But if someone, if you're in Melbourne and someone's like, Hey, come to Perth. It'll make it worth your while. Like Perth.
What is the Stimulus? What exactly are we gonna do? And if they're like have a list of like fun activities for like three days straight, and they're a professional sex haver, you're like, all right, fine, I'll buy that plane ticket. You know what I mean? But like you gotta consider both because that's how you do it. The easier analogy of course is like food. If someone's like, hey, like come get a burger at this burger bar, you're not just like, yes. Sometimes you're like, well, how much is it? How good is the burger? Because if they say like, the burgers aren't that great, but it's like $50, you're gonna be like, dude, why the fuck would I go?
Brock (30:04.602)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (30:07.92)
A lot of fatigue, in other words, poor benefit and not great cost, very high cost. But if someone's like, dude, it's $10 burgers and they're amazing, you're like, well, I'm just gonna have to try one. So same idea in training, I think it's just simple. Maybe my talent in the industry hasn't been being exceptionally exotic in my suggestions for how we approach training theory, but maybe my contribution is in part to be to be kind of simplified training theory back to basics of like, what are we really here for? Like when you're at the gym, if I'm like,
Brock (30:35.189)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (30:37.88)
a lot of weight with this exercise because that really a benefit? It seems like one, right? But then you're like, what are your outcome measures? Do you care about how strong you are? A lot of people are like, definitely. And then great for them. It's like awesome strength training. But for a lot of people Brock Lesbian, honest man, they just want to look a certain way. I just want to look like Hugh Jackman from Wolverine, man. That's the only reason I've ever wanted to train. Not me personally, just a lot of people say that. You know what I mean? And it's like, well, actually we don't even know how strong he is because it fucking doesn't matter. What matters is how stimulated do his muscles get in training? How little fatigue does he accumulate?
Brock (31:03.243)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (31:07.8)
so that he can come back and do the same thing and get the body that he wants and that you want. So if you have some decent proxies for what a Stimulus is, you have some decent proxies for what fatigue is, you might as well do the stuff that makes the most sense. That's it.
Brock (31:19.65)
Mmm, yeah. Actually, I started training. One of my big inspirations was I watched 300 when I was like 12 or 14. It was just pretty much just to look like Leonidas.
Mike Israetel (31:28.202)
Yeah, great time to watch 300.
Mike Israetel (31:33.264)
Oh yeah. You should have had CGI abs or whatever he had, but damn it.
Brock (31:36.114)
Yeah, it was funny. Me and my friend used to Google the Spartan workout because we were super young and we used to do it in the lounge and it was like jump lunges, Hindu pushups. No, it was the worst.
Mike Israetel (31:43.063)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (31:47.522)
So stupid. Oh my God. And you realize like four days of just like modified hypertrophy training would have been the best possible way. Cause remember like you're not trying to train to be a literal Spartan. If that was the case, most of it would be like training with a sword and a shield and shit like that. You're not gonna do that. You just want to look a certain way. And it's like, what, why did the 300 guys look good? Cause they looked close to what men's physique competitors look like. Well, how do those guys train with just bodybuilders, man? Like, oh shit.
Brock (31:56.25)
Mm.
Brock (32:05.186)
Yeah.
Brock (32:13.388)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (32:17.996)
But you know when you realize that most of the way you train for looks is really just a certain way to go about it It's great because it's uncomplicated. It's not great because a lot of people with these weird programs I remember the 300 program was a huge thing. Everyone Google that right? Dude there was like probably 50 of them by different fitness influencers came up with
Brock (32:31.574)
Yeah, was that like 300 reps of all this stuff?
Yeah, because I was doing a really shitty one that was like, yeah, you know, like I said, like alternating squat jumps and me and my friend for like timing our wrist periods. Yeah, I did. No weights included.
Mike Israetel (32:43.526)
Oh man, you were doing the worst one. You stumbled with the wrong one. I hate it. Oh my God. But yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, Oh, if I actually want this physical appearance turns out like people really know how to get physical appearance in a way that's very straightforward and it's almost more boring than you would think it's like, do you want bigger biceps? Like, yeah, like train the biceps through a full range of motion with the central controller.
shit. There's not any like shortcut like, Nope, this is the shortcut. Like that. Fuck. This isn't that fun. You're like, do you want big biceps or not? It's like, yes. Okay. I'm going to do this thing, which is another way of like, kind of criticizing my own earlier point about celebrities.
Brock (33:16.342)
Mmm.
Mike Israetel (33:22.102)
It would be great to get celebrities like to hear this or hear some version of this to be like, look, like what really matters to you as a celebrity when you're 12 weeks away from filming your next big movie where you have to look sexy and they're going to be like, how I look and right, right. Do you want to get hurt? Do you want to spend any more time doing it? Do you want to have fun in the gym? And they're like, just my job, man. My fun is like actually acting and then chilling out with my family and friends. Like, right. So why don't we get you a good coach? Um, we did the guy who was coaching, um, what's his name?
the guy that played, um...
Chris Pratt, the guy that was in all the movies recently, other Marvel movies. Yes, but his coach is great. He's just like does the fucking compound basics and with good technique. And it's like, dude, get a guy like that. Chris Pratt got so fucking lucky. Yeah, but everyone in Hollywood should have a guy like that because that guy is gonna be like, this is what you want, right? Right? Well, we'll just do it. Let's set it up. And that's it. Like if you have, well, like a wireless internet install in your house and some no nonsense company comes in and it's like, we're gonna put a fucking port here, here and here.
Brock (33:55.562)
Yeah, I saw that. That's a new YouTube video. I haven't watched it yet.
Brock (34:04.389)
Bad time.
Brock (34:12.289)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (34:23.452)
$20 a month here you go we turned it on you're like amazing. That's what training is like We know how to train people really well, but not everyone shopping for training knows what they're looking for unfortunately
Brock (34:34.422)
Quickly, because I know you have to have to bounce pretty soon.
Brock (34:40.778)
I know you kind of talked about the simple way that you kind of encourage training and that's probably your biggest contribution. I agree. Like I see some of your workouts that you do and you're doing like four exercises, you know, sometimes even three. And I'm like, man, to someone else coming from doing all this random F45-y type of training, that looks extremely boring. Like what's your advice to them?
Mike Israetel (35:07.657)
Yeah.
Brock (35:10.602)
I'm similar, you know, I might program five exercises, you know, three sets of this and that to people and they're like, hey Brock, like, is this it? And then they're like, oh, and I have to repeat this for four weeks? Like, I'm usually doing something different every day. What advice would you give to people for that?
Mike Israetel (35:15.563)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (35:23.298)
Yeah.
Yes, that's a great question, Rob. My, my, my first piece of advice would be you want to try to think about how much fun you want to have in the gym versus how much you want to optimize for results. Now, for me, I'm a competitive bodybuilder. If I take fifth place at a show.
And if I had less fun in prep, I could have taken third. What the hell was I doing on the, on the body of the stage? They're not like, all right, your physique looks good, but how much fun were you having? It was nonsense. So I don't care about how much fun I have to me. It's the most fun to optimize. Right. So my fun assessment comes after I say, okay, this is optimal. This is what's fun to me. But for other people, it doesn't work that way. There's a very fine way to answer. Honestly, they say, look, it absolutely results are important to me, but like,
Brock (35:54.35)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (36:15.7)
Results are 90% of what I'm after, but like 10% if I lose 10% of results opportunity cost-wise But I can do something 100% more fun. I'm there Great, then it's like okay dope. Um Then you have a second thing to do is to learn what the fundamental elements are of proper training arrangement proper programming So that you know how to include the most fun without costing yourself the most effect
So for example, doing a different exercise every week costs you a little bit of an upside, not a huge one. As long as that exercise is a stable exercise with a full range of motion or deep stretch and eccentric control and it's done properly.
So that's okay. That's a fine variation. You don't really cost yourself a ton. You cost yourself a little bit of optimality, but it's way fun because you get to do different exercise every week. On the other hand, it's like, if you do a different exercise every week, but also you're living like BOSU balls and one legged unstable squats, it's like, well, actually that choice reduces your results significantly and it increases how much time you have to spend at the gym and also the bad stuff. And then it's like, okay, well, that is a trade-off that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So if it's going to make something.
know, way more fun for you, then do it as long as you're comfortable with the optimality trade off. And a lot of times the optimality trade off is very small. But if it's like you're doing something way ineffective, just so it's fun, like people who like to do like planks and holds and shit like that, and they're like 35% body fat, you're wasting your time almost completely.
Like you're 30% fat. If you cut down to 25% fat, however many plank holds you did with your abs, it's not going to make any difference in your appearance. I mean zero, because there's 18 layers of fat. You know what I mean? So it's like you shouldn't do that at all. And they're like, okay, but like, it's fun, like sweet. Is there any way we can get you to have fun doing shit that's effective? Like lateral raises with different techniques than last week. They're like, okay, great. So that navigating that. So you as a coach and the people who, who have you as a coach, if you, if they say, Hey, like, you know, this is really boring for me.
Mike Israetel (38:19.532)
you can give them some options. We can make it more fun in three different ways. And I'll tell you one of them is going to cost you five percent of your potential results, the other 10, the other 15. Which ones do you want to choose? Because if it's really fun, it's super important to you 15 percent. But then again, Brock, if you tell your clients that after eight or 16 weeks, they tell you they come back and they're like, dude, my body's changed. I love it. And then maybe like, kind of want more results, though. You go, okay.
Brock (38:27.873)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (38:45.57)
Do you still want to do that 15% efficient method or 85% efficient rather? Or do you want to bump it up to 90 or 95 or a hundred? And then they might have a different answer because they might once people know how much work it takes to get the body that they want or close to it, once they taste what their visual appearance and health and feeling can be like when they're closer to their achievement potential to maybe like, dude, you know, this is the shit I really like, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, it's weird analogy, but like, um,
Brock (39:10.148)
Mm.
Mike Israetel (39:15.002)
If you're like just doing things for fun and passion, you're not really into making money. It's totally dope. Then if you discover you're pretty good at something and it pays you a lot. Like if you discover you're really great at singing and now you have a record deal and like you just keep putting out more songs you get $250,000 a song. You're like all of a sudden I'm really interested in writing songs and then I thought you didn't like to make money. You're like yeah when I wasn't making that shit much I didn't care but this much money your boy's in the studio 24-7 laying down bars I'm doing nothing else and it's like it's genuine you really want
Brock (39:39.382)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (39:44.976)
now. So sometimes when people don't have abs or crisp you know midsection they work for 16 weeks with you they get your diet coach and they get your training coaching they start to see their abs and they're like is there a way I can speed this up? And you're like huh I'm glad you asked we actually had that talk 16 weeks ago remember you chose the slower method? They're like I did you're right fuck that science only I want the shit that makes my abs pop the most I want the biggest biceps I've had a taste I want more and they're like sweet welcome to modern
people tell them like in the gym, they're like, I saw your workout. It looks really boring. They go, Oh, hold on a sec. Boom, pull up their abs, middle finger, fuck off. Cause then that person's like, Oh yeah, you're right. Why the hell would I? Like if you see someone really jacked and lean training, you could say it's boring, but you never tell them that. Cause what are they going to tell you? They're going to be like, do you like what you see? And you're like,
Brock (40:25.326)
Hehehe
Mike Israetel (40:35.39)
Yeah, next you're gonna tell me I have to do boring shit to look like that. They're like, yep. And you're like, ah shit So everyone kind of knows now some people they might still be like look. I still want that 85 method I still want more fun. I love my results. I'm okay to get them a little slower though I like where this is going then that's great It just has to be a known choice what you don't want is people who are like I want the fun things But they just don't know what comes in a trade-off Or the people that are like I have to do the boring things or i'll see zero results That's bullshit. You can do a lot of really fun stuff and get great results
Brock (40:38.1)
Yeah.
Mike Israetel (41:05.444)
this back to the celebrity thing again, just kind of like, you're gonna be in a movie and the whole world is gonna see you half naked. Do you want to do your best? I mean, goddamn! Sometimes those people just don't know, so if they know, all is well. If they don't know the trade-offs, oof, not great.
Brock (41:18.298)
Mm.
Brock (41:22.954)
Yeah, I recently, actually I had a celebrity that I trained and she was actually getting ready for a movie. That's why I'm like, you know, pretty interested in it as well. But, you know, there's a lot of obstacles. There's a lot of, you know, things that people will say, say famous friends or, you know, people that recommend this best personal trainer or best physio. And, you know, she was gobsmacked that she could put her knees over her toes when I told her and I was like, mate, I don't know what's happening here.
Mike Israetel (41:35.042)
How'd it go?
Mike Israetel (41:49.162)
Yeah, of course. Most people will be. Yeah, she's probably like, you know, ontological shock from realizing the matrix is real. Like, what, everything's been a lie? If you can't depend on knees over toes being a bad thing, what can you depend on, you know? Is Australia really on the south side of the world? Who knows? Maybe we've had the map upside down the whole time.
Brock (42:09.066)
Yeah, all right Mike, it's time for you to go. You've given me a lot of time, mate. I appreciate it. Where can people find you? Do you wanna leave them with anything? What are you up to next or what are you building? I know that you're always working on the hypertrophy app.
Mike Israetel (42:26.402)
Yep, it's available for purchase. And just go to my Instagram links or go to our YouTube and every video has a link to the app and where they can find us is really on YouTube. Um, just YouTube Renaissance periodization or Mike Ezra towel, or just have a, take a picture of this podcast on your phone and have an image search, my gigantic ugly face. And you'll see where I'm located on YouTube. And then, uh, you will have lots of fun, but don't let your kids listen to the channel because it's for adults.
Brock (42:52.914)
Yeah, I second that.
Mike Israetel (42:55.772)
Excellent. Brock, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a huge pleasure.
Brock (42:58.594)
Thanks man, thank you very much. Cheers mate.
Mike Israetel (43:01.811)
Cheers.
Cindy (00:00:00):
Yeah, so I'm Cindy Avalo, and I have been, well, I compete, I've been competing for nine years, but my actual job, I work for an aboriginal design studio. So I've not been in the corporate world forever for 20 plus years, but competing has been my passion for the last nine years, ever since I had my daughter, essentially. So it was after I had my first child, I got into competing just because of the PT that I had at the time. She actually thought it was a good goal for me to achieve trying to lose baby weight and all that kind of thing. And then, yeah, it was pretty much, I just fell in love with it pretty quickly actually.
Brock (00:00:44):
So what do you enjoy about competing? Because it looks pretty stressful. I've been in fitness for a while, but I've never felt drawn to it, but I've never had a coach that's been like, oh, you should go give it a go. So what do you actually find exciting about it? Because to me it's like, man, you're getting very lean. You are training very intensely, et cetera, et cetera. The list goes on.
Cindy (00:01:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think the reasons have changed over the years as well. It started off with, okay, this is going to be a great, really difficult goal for me to achieve, and it's going to require a lot of determination. And at the time I was struggling with mental health because my daughter was diagnosed with intellectual disabilities. She was also born hearing impaired, and it was a lot for me at first, and I was really struggling mentally, and I think I just sort of dive into it because I wanted to dive into something else that was going to help me feel strong and really help me through those challenging times. And I tried other things. I tried seeking help professionally from medical professional. I think fitness has always been a go-to, for me anyway, ever since I was really young. I was always really athletic. I was into basketball, netball, different kinds of sports, swimming, and then I was a Zumba teacher, which was really hilarious. Thinking back
Brock (00:02:12):
Zumba was so big for a minute. It was huge. My dad did it. Yeah,
Cindy (00:02:16):
And my parents did it too. And because I have a South American background, the Latin music was like, I loved it. I loved it with a passion. So I had always had a hobby in fitness. It was always something that I loved and I loved moving my body, and I've always enjoyed looking good and feeling good. Then obviously competing is so extreme, but truth be told, I'm actually, I do have an addictive personality, so it kind of really fed that as well, just that part of me. So yeah, I just got into it, and when I look back at the very beginning, it was terrible. I had that sort of cookie cutter programme where I was eating chicken and broccoli and it was just terrible. It's been a long, long road. So like I said, the reasons have really changed over time. I've evolved as a competitor over time.
(00:03:17):
So much has changed and continues to change, and I think that's probably why I love it because I keep evolving as an athlete, as a person, as a mother, as a wife, it pushes me to be my absolute best. Sure. It's challenging. Sure. There's really hard things about it. Sure. There are times where I've thought, I cannot do this anymore. I can't do it. It took I think a three or four year break actually during covid, and then I had my second child. So it was like four years off competing. And that break actually did me wonders, and I felt like I was actually ready to get back into it. After that. I did go through a time where I thought it's really harming my mental health, and I don't know how far we're going to go into this, but I've struggled with eating disorders, all this kind of thing. That sort of started off from the beginning, the early stages of my competitive career. But I also did have a history of eating disorder. So when I was before
Brock (00:04:22):
You started competing way
Cindy (00:04:23):
Before. So I think it was just a trigger for that sort of those behaviours to come back. And I hadn't been struggling with the needed disorder since I was about 18, and then I started competing when I was 30. So yeah, it just brought a lot of those behaviours to surface purely because of those really terrible diets that I was doing, which obviously don't do now,
Brock (00:04:55):
But the nutrition has come a long way because my friend competed as well. He competed in New Zealand and he actually won a show, but he was doing a similar thing. I remember seeing him and I was young and didn't know too much. I thought he was, I had a sneaky suspicion that he may have taken some special supplements because he was huge, but he didn't, but he was just, I
Cindy (00:05:18):
Think you can buy those at the store.
Brock (00:05:20):
But he was massive, and I saw him once and he was doing these incredible lifts. He's shorter than me and was smaller than me, people
Cindy (00:05:29):
That are shorter, just so lucky.
Brock (00:05:30):
But he was so strong. He was squatting. I think he squatted around 200 or something like that. And he was doing really incredible lifts. And before I trained with him earlier, he wasn't pushing out numbers like that, but his diet was, he was always having the oven on air frying, baking white fish, tuna weighing everything. And that's kind of what we thought bodybuilding nutrition was like, that's what you have to eat. And then you'd have to have, this was in the era where you have to have eight meals a day. So he was always eating timing things to perfection. But things have really changed, and I think if you have a tendency or a history of eating disorders, it could be quite a task to go into that hundred percent weighing things. You have to measure calories or some people don't. If they just get a meal plan, then you can just follow it, but you still have to be very aware of what you're eating, and if that triggers something, then yeah, that can be a path that's not going to be the best for you. And I think that's why I think there's more of a conversation around it now, but a lot of coaches aren't making that recommendation now. They used to,
(00:06:46):
Because a lot of personal trainers would do that and say, yeah, this is a goal, because it's kind of what we thought the peak of physiques was competing, and it still is, but back in the day, it was more so like, oh yeah, you just compete and then you can just give it your best shot and stuff like that. But now it's a little bit, do you really want to do this because it comes with this, this, and this and this.
Cindy (00:07:11):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of negativity. I mean, it does really receive a lot of negativity and it continues to be, there's two sides of it. There's a real negative side to it, and there's also a really positive side, which you wouldn't really know until you are in it yourself. But if going back to eating disorders, I think it's also the fact that there aren't many coaches that they're not asking those questions. So a client will come to a coach and Hey, I want to compete. And there's probably no conversation around the history of that person, their mental health, or have they had disorders in the past, whatever it may be. I just think that a lot of people kind of go into competing and don't really understand that it can trigger certain things. If you have that history and restriction is obviously the main trigger because you feel so restricted and then it takes you, then it kind of attaches.
(00:08:15):
Guilt is attached to that. If you a, I dunno if you eat off your plan or whatever it is, and then the guilt eats away you and then all of that. That's kind of where you can spiral into that trap. But so for me, the early stages of my competitive career, I honestly, I don't even know how I got through all of that to be honest. But then I found a really, really good coach, and I've been with her for six years, and we have such great communication that whenever I did feel triggered during a prep, for example, I would communicate that to her. And then for the last few preps that I did, I actually did, I'd follow macros versus a restrictive meal plan. And that really worked for me. That was perfect. I didn't feel restricted. It didn't give me those triggers. I just knew, okay, well if I want 20 grammes of chocolate at the end of the day I'm craving it or whatever the reason is, then that's great.
(00:09:20):
I can do those things and I don't feel restricted and I can be happy with the process versus really struggling every day eating the same thing. But having done maybe two or three preps like that, just following macros, it really did me a world of good because then the very last prep that I did, I was actually ready to do a meal plan, and the reason why I wanted to switch back to a meal plan is because we wanted to take out the variables. Because the issue with following macros is that they will be variables. Your body may fluctuate depending on what you eat. So we thought, okay, let's do follow macros for a certain period of time through the prep, because I normally do about a 20 week prep. And
Brock (00:10:06):
Is that prep just all cutting? So you're doing a 20 week cut or no? Is that still the reason why off season?
Cindy (00:10:12):
No.
Brock (00:10:13):
Or some bulking?
Cindy (00:10:14):
Yeah, essentially, for me, a longer prep works really well because you can do conservative calorie drops versus an aggressive and approach. If you start 12 weeks out, it's pretty aggressive. You're going to have really dramatic drops in your calories and no thanks. That is not for me. So a 20 week prep is beautiful. You can just have those little, and sure enough, there will be a point where it gets really, really tough. Usually
Brock (00:10:39):
It's inevitable for it to be,
Cindy (00:10:40):
It's inevitable. That's
Brock (00:10:41):
The very challenging.
Cindy (00:10:42):
Yeah, it's the name of the game. So six to seven weeks out, sure you're going to be struggling. That's the whole point of it. You're a body fat percentage is so low that it's not a sustainable way to be. So those challenges will come, but having that flexibility early in my prep and really maturing as well as a competitor, I think has just has been really, really good for me, and that's why I've regained that passion for it and have grown mentally and all of those experiences that I had really early on. It just seems so distant to me now.
Brock (00:11:23):
So with macros, what would a day look like versus your meal plan day
Cindy (00:11:30):
In terms of
Brock (00:11:31):
The macros, in terms of food choices? I know that macros can be different. So you can eat whatever you want ultimately as long as you tickle the boxes, which is hitting the macros. But take me through a day of what a meal plan day would look like and what a typical, or maybe just an example day of what your macro day would look like, just to give people an idea of
Cindy (00:11:55):
The difference. So a meal plan, I mean, it's pretty much the same. It's just that you can include little things that you enjoy. If in the mornings I want to have, I don't know, let's just say protein pancakes or something with sugar-free maple syrup or something, whatever, it doesn't mean that I'm obviously going to go and eat Maccas every day and just as long as it fits my macros, no, obviously you still have to have a really good diet approach and you need to, and I still eat like that if in my off season I rarely eat junk, but if I do feel like it, I will eat it because I'm in my off season.
Brock (00:12:38):
So in your off season, are you just turning up the amount of foods that you're having of similar foods? Yeah,
Cindy (00:12:43):
Exactly. But there will be more flexibility. So again, when you're a seasoned competitor, you understand that your off season is just important as your prep. So it's not just because I'm not in prep, I'm going to go and get fat. And what you do in your off season is so crucial. It's even more important. You know what I mean? Because then the better your off season, the better your prep is. And I learned that a couple years ago when I realised I had a really, really good prep after having my son, I had a really good off season. We did a cut phase and then did a growth phase, and I was really regimented. I was really structured because I knew I was ready to get back into it. I've had time off, I'm ready to get back into it, and I understand what it takes to get to that goal.
(00:13:35):
No, I'm not going to take it lightly because I am so focused on that goal and I know what it's going to have to take. So I had a really, really good off season and I had the best prep of my life. It was amazing. It was easy to me. It surely got challenging towards the end, but it was so easy because my body, it was I was dropping weight when I needed to drop. It was just everything was flowing really nicely because I was so good in my off season, and I'm still doing the same thing now. I'm very structured. I eat really good meals. I try to make them nutritious. If I feel like a dirty burger, every now and again, I will have it, because again, you can have that flexibility in your off season. I don't go off the rails very often, but it was actually last week where I felt like I really needed a burger and chips, and this is not something I do all the time, but I was craving it, and then I put it all into my FitnessPal. If I'm going to go off the rails, I'll go off the rails, but then at the end of the day, I'll punch it all into my fitness bell to see actually how bad I was. And I went 40 grammes over in my fats.
Brock (00:14:46):
Fat's always the one that'll get you. Yeah,
Cindy (00:14:48):
Always. And then I was like, oh my God. And the guilt started to set in, but straight away I texted my coach and I was like, look, so this happened. What do you want me to do? Do you want me to take the fats off the next couple of days? How do we recover from this? And she said, you're in your growth phase. You're all good. It's don't just continue, just pick up the next day and just get on with it. You know what I mean? And I think those, that's what I mean by the communication with your coach, having that really good community. A lot of girls don't disclose those sort of things if they go off their plan or whatever. They just let the guilt eat away and they don't tell anybody, and then it screws up with your whole process.
Brock (00:15:33):
I think that with those meals as well, it's not so much the physical, but also physiological potentially not burnout, but when you're so regimented, it's kind of like you have this voice in your head that's like, man, this is too regimented. Almost your training's regimented and you structure, you were saying, but training's regimented, your nutrition's regimented and you have all these other things that you have to do. You have to work. Work has regimented. Then there's no element of your life that's spontaneous. Yes, sure. Physically maybe you wanted that burger too, but there's also that element of like, oh, this is cool. I'm not really worried about it. It's just fun. That's what I like about flexible dieting. So even me as a coach, even though I'm not coaching competitive bodybuilders in any sort of division, I'm coaching people to macros and we're not trying to hit certain weights and drop things like, yeah, we're trying to lose fat, we're trying to build muscle. We're trying to do all of that good stuff. But I just find that flexible dieting just provides people such a better quality of
Cindy (00:16:40):
Life, a hundred percent.
Brock (00:16:42):
Also parents that we both are, that flexibility is nice because to have things that, well, my daughter's too young to eat what we eat, but when your children get older to eat what you eat, you can't really have these meals if you want, unless your kids are going to be sitting there eating competitive bodybuilders as well.
Cindy (00:17:03):
Well, we actually have different meals to my kids.
Brock (00:17:06):
Exactly. But that takes even more preparation. It does. And sometimes you may not have that bandwidth or even time to pull that off.
Cindy (00:17:12):
Yeah. So yeah, we are pretty organised and I think credit to my husband for supporting me competing for so long, he actually helps me with the organisation, with the prepping. He will bulk cooks some meat for me or bulk cook chicken, and we have rice on rotation at home, for example, and potatoes. The rice cook
Brock (00:17:34):
Will be getting hammered.
Cindy (00:17:35):
Yeah, they're the staples. And if it means that I have to have chicken and rice two, three times a day because that's all I've had time to prep, then that's what I'll do and I'll just have the additional salads or veggies or whatever. So we eat pretty boring at the end of the day. We are pretty boring. We kind of eat the same thing all the time, but it's what works. And then it allows me to have the little extra things that tasty stuff that I crave or whatever. I'll still eat chocolate once a day or whatever it is, but 90% of my meals are really healthy meals, and I find that sure, the flexibility is great, and I can go and have that burger and chips when I want to have it every now and again. But then to be honest with you, do I feel great afterwards?
(00:18:23):
No. Does it affect my training? Yes. If I want to go and have a few drinks and go out and party with friends, sometimes yes, I can do that in my off season sporadically. But then again, the same thing. Do I feel great afterwards? No. Does it affect my training? Yes. So sometimes I weigh up what are the pros and cons? If I have this can of vodka, whatever, and it's 110 calories or 150 calories versus that piece of chicken and rice or whatever, that's going to be the same calorie amount, but it's going to be so much better for my body. Why would I do that? You know what I mean? Sure. It's fun there then, but it's like I live and breathe what I do. I live and breathe the sport, and it means so much more to me than going out and feeling like shit for a week after. Do you know what I mean?
Brock (00:19:21):
Yeah. And it just doesn't seem like it's worth it. The reward of winning is much greater than the reward of let's say, having a night out. Then if you don't win your competition or whatever you're going for or feel like you've given it your best, you'll know that you have these things that you potentially could have not done
Cindy (00:19:41):
To get there. And it's not even about winning. It's just about feeling good in my training. I absolutely. That's the other thing about competing. I think it's just knowing really why you're doing it. Are you really in it just to win a medal at the end? No, I'm not in it for that. I'm in it because the process drives me and inspires me and motivates me and the training. I'm so obsessed with the training, and when I don't have a goal, my attitude to training actually does change. So if there's a goal in the end, and it's not winning per se, but it's like the fact that there is an end point, there is a stage that I need to get up on and demonstrate my hard work, then that process is what I'm in love with. And if I know that crappy food and whatever is going to affect that process, then that's kind of what I mean where I kind of weigh up the pros and cons.
(00:20:36):
But every now and again, sure enough, I still do it because I have a husband that doesn't compete. He likes to go out and have a drink, he likes to go and have fun. Do you know what I mean? So I need to a wife, I need to be a friend. I need to do all of those things. And in your off scene season is when you actually have the flexibility to do so. It's not when you're in prep. And he understands that if I'm in prep, I won't go out. I'm in bed, have fun. I'm in bed every night at a certain time. He understands that for those five months, three to five months, I'm in prep mode.
Brock (00:21:15):
But you have to have that support system as well, which is quite rare because a lot of partners may be like, oh, and obviously we don't want people to be in relationships like this, but they may not be as supportive and understanding. They may think it's, I don't know, selfish, or they may think it's like, come on, it's just this. It's just that it's pretty important. And even the fact that he's helping to cook, and there's so much more than just cooking and sleeping. But with bodybuilding, those things are very important. A hundred percent. And you can't just really get on with three hours of sleep consistently or four hours. I had a day yesterday where I slept three and a half hours and woke up early for a podcast, and I trained, but it was terrible. It was horrific. I substituted every exercise for the easiest exercise possible. I even took some out of the workout. I was just like, I can't do this. So instead of squats, I did leg press instead of something. I did leg extension. I just did everything that was just seated. I felt
Cindy (00:22:13):
Like
Brock (00:22:14):
I was like, I should. Well, your
Cindy (00:22:15):
Eyes closed too. That's right.
Brock (00:22:18):
I just wanted to sleep. I probably should have sleep like that probably would've got me more benefits than doing a shitty training session. But you can't get away with things like that, especially if you're doing it and you're up against people. Once again, it's not about winning, but at the end of the day, you are standing on stage against people. They're probably trying to get more sleep, and they're making the same choices as you are, so you have to really stay dialled in. It's important to have that support system. Oh,
Cindy (00:22:45):
Absolutely. And don't get me wrong, we've had difficult times as a partnership because that's essentially what a marriage is, and you both have to pull your weight. And competing can be a selfish sport, but it's also, again, going back to being a seasoned competitor when you first start out, knowing when you are being selfish and knowing and being really self-aware in a prep is super important when you have a partner and when you have kids, and when you have a household, you've got to understand that it's your choice to compete. This is my choice, this is my sport. It shouldn't be affecting my family, it shouldn't be affecting my relationships. So there are boundaries that you have to set yourself, and you have to be very self-aware of, for example, how people say, oh, they get hangry in prep and they get it moody and all this stuff.
(00:23:41):
It's like, yeah, I went through that in the early stages. I would be that person. I would get really grumpy if I couldn't get my meal in or whatever. And it's like, I don't do that anymore. I internalise that. You know what I mean? I don't voice those feelings. Have to. Yeah, you really have to because I don't want to be unpleasant. My whole prep for my partner, I don't want to be a moody mom. I don't want to be that person. If this sport is what I choose, because I say that, it drives me. It makes me a better person, then I have to really demonstrate that it is making me a better person, not making me the opposite.
Brock (00:24:17):
And at the end of the day, you've decided to sign up and you've decided to train and to have these meals and things like that. No one has really forced you to do that, so
Cindy (00:24:26):
You can't whinge about it.
Brock (00:24:27):
Yeah, voluntarily walked into it. Yeah, exactly. If you're just voluntarily to do
Cindy (00:24:32):
Something, it self inflicted. It. Self seems like the pain. So you can't be winching about it.
Brock (00:24:36):
And no one likes to complainer as well. No one wants to be around that energy.
Cindy (00:24:39):
No. And if you really do love the sport, then you've got to love the process, the good and the bad, the shitty days where you literally have no energy, but you are picking yourself up and going to do your workout regardless, and you're giving it your all. You have to do that and love it, I guess.
Brock (00:24:58):
So what does your training look like?
Cindy (00:25:00):
So at the moment, in and off season, I'm currently sticking to seven week blocks. So six
Brock (00:25:07):
Weeks, seven week with one programme.
Cindy (00:25:09):
Yes, seven weeks, one programme, six weeks, and then a week. And I'm loving the deload week's, not going to lie, because I'm really pushing myself with this training because it has changed quite a bit. I've changed federation. So I won an Australian title in 35 plus in WBFF last year, and I decided to switch to I-F-B-B-I-F-B-B bikinis a very different ball game. The bikini criteria is extremely different compared to wb FF. Yeah.
Brock (00:25:43):
But it's the same. It's still bikini.
Cindy (00:25:46):
It is bikini, but so WBFF, for example, they don't look for muscular delts, for example. They don't really want capped delts. They don't want too much conditioning. So there's a level of muscle that you kind of need to have to stick to the bikini criteria. And it's very quads and sort of glutes. That's kind like the
Brock (00:26:13):
Law, quite bottom heavy,
Cindy (00:26:14):
Quite bottom heavy. Whereas IFB bikini, it's very, very different. It's more focused on glutes and ham tie and delts and small waist, and not really, they don't really want much quad either. So I had to pretty much,
Brock (00:26:31):
Yeah, that's a very different look and training programme. I'm just thinking of exercise selection in my head as you're talking. I'm like, that's a very different way to programme.
Cindy (00:26:41):
I mean, I'm pretty much just training delts back glutes and hammies. Literally. I don't train quads. I don't train anything
Brock (00:26:49):
Else. Well, some elements of your quads will come through with the other exercises, and if you just maintain the size of your quads just from some of the accessory work that they get with the exercises that you do, it might just maintain itself out. Yeah.
Cindy (00:27:03):
And I've loved it because it's given me new life in the gym because it's a different style of training. And just the fact that I never really used to focus on upper body was also really exciting for me because I've fallen in love with the upper body training. And back in the day, if you had asked me Upper body day, are you excited? I would've been like, hell mo. I used to hate it, but it was only because I was not good at it. You know what I mean? Wasn't very strong. And now building my strength in my upper body has been really, really exciting. Just the different approach to training in general has been really exciting and really kind of educating myself along the way as well in terms of how to really, really train your glutes. Whereas I think back in the day, I used to think I was training glutes, but I think it was more like my back and different muscle groups or my quads, for example. But yeah, so I've learned so much along the way, and I think that's why, again, I just love the process so much.
Brock (00:28:06):
And what split are you doing?
Cindy (00:28:09):
Okay, it's the
Brock (00:28:10):
Question everyone likes
Cindy (00:28:10):
To ask.
Brock (00:28:11):
What split are you doing? So
Cindy (00:28:12):
Typically I would be doing lower upper split, and it would be three lower to upper. But at the moment, I'm actually training glutes five times a week. So it would be glutes, delts, glutes, back delts, and then one day with just glutes. Okay. So I'm kind of confusing myself. So Monday for example, is glute back and delts, and then Tuesday is just lower body, and then Wednesday will be again, glutes, delts. So it's hitting them every single day, and it's like volume across the week as opposed to volume per workout. And I have responded really well to it so far. So this is probably my third week in this block, and I have never felt my glutes burn this much. It has been. And it was funny at first I saw the programme and I messaged my coach and I was like, ah, what is the logic behind this? Yeah,
Brock (00:29:08):
Sounds like it sounds like a lot.
Cindy (00:29:10):
Yeah, it is a lot. A lot of volume. But I obviously prioritise recovery as well. So I'm getting massages one to two times a week really making sure that I'm stretching and all of that. But yeah, I'm responding to it really well so far. Yeah, and I'm sure it'll change the next block, but that's currently where we're at.
Brock (00:29:33):
And a lot of people can't really perceive following a programme for six weeks or seven weeks, for example, because people, and this is something I combat a lot on social media, is just random workouts that kind of frustrate me when people just jump from workout to workout, not even programme to programme, which is bad enough in itself because if the programmes don't make sense to each other, then you're just doing heaps of random stuff, a hundred percent. If you're doing random workouts all the time, which is what a lot of people do, they'll save a workout from their favourite influencer, which is cool. You can do what you want, but you can't just do that and then just do another person that you like to workout and just expect it to work and expect to look like that person. And if you look at the people that know what they're doing or some of the best physiques of all time and things like that, they follow programmes.
Cindy (00:30:22):
And every programme is essentially the same thing, just different variation. It's the same exercise. Actually, a lot of the exercises in my current block were in my last block, but it's just adding different variations or different ways of doing the exact same exercise.
Brock (00:30:37):
Yeah. Yeah. That's all it is. And even with myself, because I coach people, I do get some questions like, oh, how come we're doing this again? And there's only so many things that you can do. We don't just invent exercises for fun. A squat has been around for ages because it's a great exercise. But yes, you're right. There are ways to make variation within a squat. So for example, for people that aren't unaware, you can do a back squat. That's a high bar. You can do a low bar squat, you can do front squats, even if you wanted, you could use a dumbbell if you want to do goblet squats. And then you can do split squats and all that kind of stuff. But even within the same exercise, if you have a back squat, like a high bar squat, for example, you can do three sets of 10. You can do five sets of five, you can do whatever, six sets of seven. You can do whatever you want to achieve. But then within that as well, you can change the tempo a
Cindy (00:31:30):
Hundred percent.
Brock (00:31:31):
And a lot of people aren't even aware of tempo as well. They're like, oh yeah, I just squat like, oh, we're doing squats again. It's like, no, no, no, it's not a squat. It's a three seconds down, two second pause at the bottom squat. It's very different. Yeah,
Cindy (00:31:44):
That's the thing. You can totally progress with those same exercises, just different approach, and look for wherever you have better mind to muscle connection is the key, right? Because for me, tempo is where it's at at the moment. I love
Brock (00:32:01):
It.
Cindy (00:32:02):
Big fan, you should see my workouts. Everything is super slow, super, super slow. But I just love, love how it feels. So I fall in love with that style of training and different, what I mean by different variations. For example, if I'm doing, I don't know, side raises, I'm now doing 'em on the floor. We're doing lying side raises with the cables as opposed to standing. Because for me, my problem is I was always bringing my Dels in to do the work. Sorry, my traps. Traps. So just that kind of finding exercises where you have better isolation, things like that, which is exactly the same, but you're just having better mind to muscle connection.
Brock (00:32:43):
I just programmed for Built by Brock, one of these programmes that I do, and there's a big kind of membership of people that follow it, and the tempo's like five seconds down for quite a lot of exercises. Ouch. Yeah. Everyone's super sore, which is bound to happen with that sort of tempo. But also a challenging thing with five seconds down is you have to drop the weights. And that's a good ego check because if you are not following that tempo, you can lift much more weight. You can, I don't know, maybe lift 30, 40% more if you're just going two seconds down or just kind of going down and up. You would just, okay, we'll just do it comfortably. But if you are counting five seconds, five seconds has never been longer.
Cindy (00:33:30):
Oh,
Brock (00:33:30):
Yeah. It's such a long way down when you're doing it that way. But it's a great way to check if you are lifting with your ego or with your, sorry, or if you're not, because it feels like a different exercise to me. And I'm following it at the moment, my own programme, and I did a push day, I think it was maybe three days ago, and I'm still recovering from it just because I wasn't training like this previously, and I went on a holiday and I didn't really train. And it's just that way,
Cindy (00:34:05):
That 10, was this your recent holidays? Yeah. Where you said your abs were washed out, but really they weren't?
Brock (00:34:10):
No. I was trying to share something, but joking. I don't know if I succeeded or not.
Cindy (00:34:15):
But
Brock (00:34:17):
Yeah, I didn't train for, I think I trained four times in two weeks, which doesn't really happen. I used to be, I've probably chilled out more now that I'm, I would say number one just had a better understanding of training, and that muscle doesn't really disappear. That's one thing that I was trying to prove with that post, but maybe didn't.
Cindy (00:34:36):
No, you did. You totally did. You nailed it.
Brock (00:34:40):
But yeah, I would usually lose my shit back in the day, lose my shit. If I missed a session, I would train on Christmas day, I'd train on my birthday, which is New Year's Eve, and it was like a double whammy. I was like, I'm training. It was always like the hunt for open gyms, because gyms are always closed. Unless you're a member of a 24 7 gym, you can get in, but if you're not and you're travelling, you're like, I have to get somewhere. There
Cindy (00:35:03):
Are still gyms that aren't 24 7.
Brock (00:35:06):
It's a struggle in Noosa. Not that I was going to train outside of hours, but that one wasn't. So I had to go in at the right time. But yeah, I used to lose my shit and be like, I have to train. But the more I've learned, the more I've understood, you don't actually need to. It's a good habit too, obviously you don't just want to slack off for no reason, but if you're on holiday, it's like, man. And holidays are different when you have kids, as you would know. Well, I can't say kids. I have one daughter and you have more than one. So time becomes more rare and just everything is quick
Cindy (00:35:44):
And efficient. Workouts are really good on a holiday. The last holiday that we had, which is a very, very distant memory now, but the last one we had, I do remember waking up before everybody so that I could get my 30 minutes of a workout. And it was a really quick kind of holiday circuit style workout. They're the kind of ones that you want to do, but I just felt great if I did that and I would get back and everybody was still asleep, so winning, you know what I mean? So it didn't affect the family holiday, essentially,
Brock (00:36:17):
Just your sleep on the family holiday. Just
Cindy (00:36:18):
My sleep.
Brock (00:36:19):
Yeah. Yeah. That's one thing that I was doing. So I could either, I hate training in the morning. I hate doing it. First thing I saw that you train quite early, I can't do that, but I suppose I have the freedom to train a bit later on. Unsure of your schedule. Maybe you don't, but I can't train early in the morning. I don't know how you do it. Even after caffeine hit, that would wake up anyone. I still couldn't train. I just feel weak. I did it before we left on our trip to Noosa. I trained at 4:00 AM and man, I was lifting pathetically. I don't know how you do it. Maybe you get used to it. I even had heaps of carbs the night before to try and,
Speaker 3 (00:37:00):
Come on, I'm coming in pumped. And I was like, let's go. And then it was just pathetic.
Cindy (00:37:04):
I think that it has improved over time. I'm not going to say it was easy at first, and the only reason why I do it three times a week, I get up at four, and that's because I work in Sydney. I live on the coast and it's, it's a big trip. It's the only time I can do it. I can't train after work because I get home and it's go time with the kids. So it's literally the only time I have, and I just do it. I just do it. And at first it was really, really challenging and I had to get used to it, and sure, I wasn't my strongest at that time of the day. So it just meant that I had to train with intention and really tune into my body and get the most out of my workout without having to go super heavy.
(00:37:50):
But I've gotten better over time, and it's just become second nature now. So I still have a pre-workout meal. I get up literally half asleep, and I cook. I make overnight oats, so I pretty much eat the same pre-workout meal. So I get up, take it out of the fridge, eyes are half open, eat it, and then get ready. And then it takes me about 40 minutes from the time that I get up to the gym, and then I do my activation exercises. So I do all of that while I'm still digesting, because essentially it's hard to train when you're still digesting. So it's good that I do my warmup and my activation, and then by the time that's done, it's been about 45 minutes since I had the meal, and then I'd get my caffeine in. So then I have my toxic caffeine.
Brock (00:38:45):
Do you take coffee or do you actually take a pre-workout?
Cindy (00:38:47):
I do a pre-workout.
Brock (00:38:48):
Yeah. I've given up pre-workout,
Cindy (00:38:49):
Nasty, nasty stuff, like
Brock (00:38:51):
Green and purple. What is this?
Cindy (00:38:54):
You're literally struggling to drink it. But I do that. And then I also have Gatorade power during my workouts, which is the carbs. So I just have that energy coming in, and I actually feel really great. I feel great in my workouts. The only time I won't feel great is where I have less than six hours sleep. So I aim for six, seven, mostly seven, but sometimes it's six. If I get less than that, rubbish.
Brock (00:39:20):
It's a challenge.
Cindy (00:39:21):
So that's kind of how I've structured it and just gotten used to it. And I'm a morning person, which is obviously works to my, it's an advantage because I'm pretty much, I'm always on. I'm ready to go in the
Brock (00:39:36):
Morning. That morning routine would be even worse if you were hating it. If you were a night owl and you were trying to do that, that would be impossible.
Cindy (00:39:43):
Yeah, my husband's a night owl. There's no way he would train at that time of the
Brock (00:39:47):
Day. Yeah, he's probably going to bed. You're waking up. Yeah. I think my mistake was I did it fasted, and that's, oh, no. Yeah, I was just like, hmm. It was too early to eat for me. I was like, this is because I just woke up and left straight away. We were flying, but during the day, I need to have a few meals behind me. I have a big calorie budget. I eat three and a half thousand a day if I'm to maintain my weight. So if I'm building, I've got a pretty generous amount. I can eat quite a lot.
Cindy (00:40:21):
Do you have a struggle to eat all
Brock (00:40:22):
That? Yeah, sometimes if I'm really busy at work and things like that, I look at my calories and I'm like, man, I got to eat 2000 calories and it's dinnertime. And I'm just like, so sometimes I can just really go for it. So that's where flexible dieting is good. I can, on most Fridays, either a Friday or Saturday, I'll go to grilled with my wife or we'll get it in, and then once baby's down, we'll have dinner and I can have three meals, sorry, three burgers and chips and stuff like that. And man, sometimes that meal is 2,500 calories or 2,800 and the fat is astronomical.
Cindy (00:40:59):
Well, that's a thing. It's the fat,
Brock (00:41:00):
It's over a hundred in that meal, just that meal alone. So when I'm tracking, tracking, I have to really put aside calories. I'm eating like a peasant throughout the day, because at dinner time, it's going to be huge. Recently, I did nothing compared to you, but a cut, just, I was running a challenge and I was doing it with my members. Oh, nice. I think I only dropped, I wanted to lose three kilos. So I'm like, I like to do it slow. And for someone that was like, I started at 92, and that's pretty slow for someone that's at 92, just to lose, it was almost 500 grammes a week, so I didn't even feel it. My maintenance was 3,500. I was at my first five weeks, I was at 3,300. It was just nothing. 200 calories. You don't even feel that. No. And it just came down, and then I was like, oh, I better go to 3,100. So I was there for three weeks and it was finished. I was like, oh, I didn't even feel like I was on a diet, but before that I was, yeah, I wasn't tracking and I was just eating a lot of grilled burns.
(00:42:04):
Oh, god. So I think I was at four, maybe four and a half on some days. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's
Cindy (00:42:09):
Crazy. I'm on two six, and I feel like every now and again, I really struggle to get it in. I have to be, that's quite a lot. I have to be consistent during the day. I think where I get stuck is if I'm at work and super, super busy and I'm not able to get my meals in, and then I get home, and then I realise I still have 1500 calories, which is really hard for me because one meal, for example, the other night I had to eat, I dunno, 350 grammes of rice with 200 and something grammes of meat. And I was literally about to, by the end, you know what I mean? I was really struggling. I said to my husband, I cannot finish this. So I sat there and digested for 20 minutes, and then I finished.
Brock (00:42:48):
Yeah, sometimes you have to do that, but I enjoying a bigger meal at nighttime. So that's kind of how I work. I like bigger meals, so I don't snack. I'm not a snacker. I've never liked snacking. I'm not sure why I like bigger meals. So my breakfast will be 800, 900 calories, and I just have yoghourt, and I just throw things in it. Muley bars, anything. Peanut butter, honey. I'm just like, yeah, cool. Berries. God, hard life. Yeah, I know. It's like, well, with 3,500 calories, you have to, if I was trying to eat that super clean, that would be very challenging. So for me, it sounds like I'm just having fun and doing whatever, but I'm like, it's kind of making the calories a bit easier. And sometimes I usually have a smoothie, and that's easy as, oh, easy drinking calories. I'll put 1500 calories down, nothing. I'll be like, this is easy. And then I might have another 800 calories for lunch or something like that. And then I'll have quite a big dinner. But I like that because all my work's done for the day, I'll get home and then I might eat, just pick out, and then I'm like,
Cindy (00:43:51):
Go to sleep. Does it affect your digestion or your sleep? No.
Brock (00:43:54):
No. I've been a good sleeper since I was young, so I could just, I don't know. Same thing with training. I was a personal trainer on the gym floor. I used to smash massive meals and just go train just because I had no other option. So I would go to Guzman Gomez and eat two burritos and
Cindy (00:44:11):
Just train, train. You probably have a really good metabolism. That sounds of
Brock (00:44:14):
It. I've had that since I was little, just eating a lot. But I, I've think I have a genetic thing where I just fidget a lot. Some people just sit there and they're cool, but I'm under the table. My knees go up and down. You know how people have that? How much The
Cindy (00:44:32):
Same, yeah,
Brock (00:44:33):
I'm the same. So these people generally have higher calorie allowances because they just burn more calories in general. But some people just sit there and they're cool. They're just like, but when I talk, I go like this. When I sit there, I tap my feet. I don't even realise
Cindy (00:44:48):
I do this thing where I always scratch my nail. I need to be fidgeting.
Brock (00:44:52):
It's just movement. It is movement. So with that, it's called your neat levels, which you're probably aware of, which is can be seen as you're walking and stuff like that. But then there's also things in the middle, which are like when you touch your hair, when you move your hands, and just, I have a tendency to do things. Even at home, I'm more aware of it because I have a daughter now. I'll play with her, but I'm running around and dancing or doing stupid things instead of fun. That's
Cindy (00:45:19):
A great thing.
Brock (00:45:20):
But yeah, I'm a fun person. I like moving. If I'm just sitting down, I'm not just sitting down. Usually I'm burning things. So that allows me to have more calories. So drinking calories is a big thing for me that helps. And sauces and things like that, that really keeps me going. Sometimes I have to eat more, and sometimes when you're eating cleaner foods, it's a bit dry and stuff like that. I'm not a foodie, so I'm just more of an eat for fuel dude. And you kind of get that sometimes in fitness, what it is, you're like, I'm not hungry, but I have to do it. Or you just get used to eating kind of bland of foods. And
Cindy (00:46:01):
Just because trying to get it in,
Brock (00:46:03):
And sometimes you just want to be healthier. You don't want the mayo and the sauces and stuff like that. It builds the calories up. So you just kind get used to it.
Cindy (00:46:11):
I'm not big on sauces.
Brock (00:46:13):
Oh, man.
Cindy (00:46:14):
Yeah,
Brock (00:46:15):
I've never, I'm from New Zealand, so tomato sauces. Well, that's what I blame it on, but I put it on everything I insult. That's my daughter. Oh,
Cindy (00:46:22):
Really? She could have tomato sauce on tomato sauce. She would have it.
Brock (00:46:26):
Yeah, it's a kid thing. I just never really grew up. So what does a day of actually competing look like? So take us through the day of when you won your last show last year.
Cindy (00:46:39):
So again, I think one of the reasons why I wanted to leave WBFF was because it's a really gruelling day. It's so much fun, so much fun, but it's really long and tiring. So you're up at four o'clock and with WBFF, so you have different outfits. You have to do a dress round, essentially, and then you do the bikini round, but it starts at four or five in the morning. You get your makeup done, and then you're pretty much waiting around. So you either go back to your hotel room or whatever it is, and you're getting your meals in, checking in with your coach, practising your posing, doing all of that stuff until you're backstage. And then you are waiting to get on stage. And like I said, you have different rounds. So yeah, it's a really, really long day backstage. And sometimes it's quite tough because by that point, you're already exhausted
Brock (00:47:40):
And starving,
Cindy (00:47:41):
But you're also running on adrenaline because the day has finally come, right? You're being prepping for all these months, and it's like the day's finally there and you are just running on adrenaline. And it's so exciting. But with me, I got to a point where the reason why I changed federations was because I kind of got over the dresses and the glam and all of that additional stuff. I just said to myself, I really want just bodybuilding. I want the process to be bigger than all of that stuff. They do a registration.
Brock (00:48:13):
It was more glamorous. It
Cindy (00:48:14):
Is really glamorous. It's kind of like, they call it beauty pageant. Beauty pageant with muscles. You know what I mean? And it was really fun, and I loved it for the first couple of years. But yeah, it's not really me. It kind of just didn't really align with me anymore. And I just really want to do just bodybuilding. I just want to be consider myself just an athlete. The other thing that I just didn't really like was, in the first few years, I found myself being influenced by what came with that world as well. As I mentioned to you before, we were having conversation just in regards to looking for sponsors and being active on social media and having a large number of following and all of that stuff. I did all that in the beginning, and I think I was just doing it for the wrong reasons. I think it was just because I thought that's what I had to do as an athlete, as a bikini competitor, to get exposure, to get likes, to get the federation to like me or whatever it is. And so I was doing all of that. I had all the sponsors. I had, I dunno, I can't remember if it was 20,000 followers or whatever on Instagram. And I look back now, and it was fun for the time being, but I just could not, it just was not me.
Brock (00:49:32):
Yeah, nothing's going to last if it's not you.
Cindy (00:49:34):
Yeah, it was really not me. I found myself doing things on social media or posting in a way that just did not align with who I was. And every now and again, I would check myself and then delete the post. I'm like, why am I posting this stuff? I was just so influenced by the whole world that came with it. And yeah, I mean, I don't regret anything. But at the same time, I think that's why I say I've evolved as a competitor and I've evolved as an athlete, and now I don't have, I deleted that Instagram account. I was so over all these weirdos, messaging and just all this stuff that came with it. It
Brock (00:50:14):
Was time consuming, energy consuming,
Cindy (00:50:16):
Energy consuming, time consuming. I didn't want to keep up with a post and standing next to a supplement and saying, Hey, buy this. I just did not want to be that person. You know what I mean? So now, yeah, private Instagram, I control who follows me. You know what I mean? It's so weird to me now when I think about how, I don't know how you open yourself up to getting people's opinions complete, strangers,
Brock (00:50:45):
It's kind of like, well, in your sport, there is a lot of that. Sometimes I've seen some rumours or maybe just some posts around people are unsure if they want it because they deserved it, or is it because they bought so much attention to the sport or to that event because they had X amount of followers and things like that, which seems unfair. But then there's also this element of that's kind of where everything is heading. Well, not where everything is heading, but that's kind of currency these days. Like followings and I dunno how many comments and how many likes you get, and it seems so stupid just on your phone. But then you can see it from the business side of running the event. They want as many eyes as possible too. So it's become this mix of are you the best? Which should be the most important. But then there's this background floating thing of like, okay, but how many followers do you have? Who's sponsoring you? And who are you and people? What are you
Cindy (00:51:47):
About? And people often actually ask those questions. Do you need to have, I remember when I was with W bfa, I remember people would actually ask the questions to the people of the federation, do you need to have a big Instagram following to be successful? And when you think about that, how ridiculous is that? Do you know what I mean? It's a sport. Why does your Instagram have anything to do with what you're doing? That's
Brock (00:52:08):
True. That's true. But that's where it starts to get grey. If you think of a sport, if you think of jujitsu, right? You either win or you lose. Your arm either could get broken and you tap, or your arm just breaks and you lose. It's a bit easier to define who wins or loses. But with something that's up to, there are some objective things that you need to tick in a criteria, like you're saying doubts and glutes and all that kind of things. But then there's these subjective things that are maybe they don't really say is on the scorecard that do influence who wins or loses. I
Cindy (00:52:46):
Think with, yes, WBFF, it's very much marketability. It really depends on your overall look and your presentation and you're posing. A lot of that has to do with how you place. And I love the stage, and I think that's why I did well, because I love the stage. And that really shows when I'm on there. So call me a show pony. That's what I become. You know what I mean? That's why I become on stage. But
Brock (00:53:11):
That's also what they want.
Cindy (00:53:12):
Because I loved, I genuinely love being on stage, but what I really want now is I want to be judged on my hard work. I want to be judged on my physique. I want to be judged on how well I can fit the criteria,
Brock (00:53:28):
Which is what it should be about anyway. Percent.
Cindy (00:53:30):
Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I think I'm kind of reignited this passion for bodybuilding just because it's a complete different approach now. And I think to myself, why did when I do this sooner?
Brock (00:53:42):
Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I think when I hear that, I see both sides, especially because I'm so active on social media, but I'm not a competitive bodybuilder, so whatever. But I guess I'm just more so trying to get my name out. But
Cindy (00:53:59):
You're not out there to say, Hey, look me, look at my body. Right? So
Brock (00:54:05):
Business, I definitely did at the start. What I thought that's kind of just social media was so new. Everyone was just like, what do you do? So it's like, oh, you just put photos up of your body. Okay. Oh, that's a personal trainer. Oh,
Cindy (00:54:17):
We all do it. We all
Brock (00:54:18):
Do it. But it was young too. So people were figuring it out and then you also have to figure out what sort of attention you do want. Because as you said, you got some creeps and I get my fair share amount of it, and it's like, well then is it their fault or is it because of what you're posting? You could be like, oh, I'm not about that, blah, blah. But then you post photos that are like that, so it's like,
Cindy (00:54:41):
And sad. That's the attention you're drawing in. It's like,
Brock (00:54:43):
Yeah, it's a bit of a question mark. So I've definitely gravitated away from, I used to post a lot of workouts and things like that, and I used to post a lot of shirtless stuff. Like I said at the start, I was like, I thought that was what Instagram was about. That's what you do. You just post workouts and you post shirtless selfies, and everyone's like, yeah, you look good. But then when I was like, oh, I actually want to be a coach and be a really good one, I was like, oh, I need to actually educate these people. And then I really dived into education. That's why I stepped away from face-to-face personal training, so I could go online and then I could learn more, have more time. So then I'd be smarter than other personal trainers. And that's how I would get business, because I was a better coach as opposed to just a better body. Because if you want a better body, then you jump on a cycle and then train really hard, and then you're like, well, I should be the best personal trainer now. But sometimes that's not what people are looking for. Often they're looking for someone that can actually get them from A to B. There are some people that want to look like you, and that's understandable, but ultimately people just want to get the job done. They want. I think there're paying you for a fine line
Cindy (00:55:51):
And knowing where that fine line is, obviously you have to look the part. Yeah, it
Brock (00:55:56):
Helps.
Cindy (00:55:56):
Yeah, a hundred percent. I wouldn't want a personal trainer that looked unfit, that's for
Brock (00:56:00):
Sure. It'd be challenging to digest. And then I think I'll just have a lot of questions and be like, okay, so this stuff, why don't you do it? Why don't
Cindy (00:56:10):
You do it? Exactly.
Brock (00:56:11):
You feel like a therapist, but it's a genuine question. And I worked in a gym with trainers like that, and it definitely doesn't replace knowledge. You are, let's say if you know a lot, but you're not applying it, I would still appreciate that knowledge, but then you'd kind of be like, but then, yeah, why don't you do it? But then if someone's a really good body but doesn't know much, I think I'd probably rather train with the other person because they know more because you're getting that knowledge. But I think it's definitely both. If you have that knowledge, then you should really be applying it if you kind of know what you say. And that's kind of what I try and stick to. I just enjoy training. That's why I do it. We're talking about it before you're like, so how's your training going? I'm like, oh, I don't really have a concrete goal at the moment. I guess I'm kind of searching for one, and I do. So I just feel like at the moment it kind of feels like my training compliments my juujitsu, but then I'm like, I'm already strong. And that's all that it really needs to be in jujitsu, because if I can bench 150 or 160 in Jiujitsu, it doesn't mean anything. It's just like if you can bench press one 50, you can push someone off you.
Cindy (00:57:26):
And is that your priority? It's jujitsu over training, would you say?
Brock (00:57:32):
Look, they're both hobbies, so it's like I'm not getting paid to work out. Not that it's about making money, but I'm also not getting paid to train a hobby. Well,
Cindy (00:57:43):
I guess maybe I should reframe that question. Maybe what fuels your fire more?
Brock (00:57:47):
At the moment? It's jujitsu. Yeah, because it's more exciting at the moment. I think I joined Jiujitsu or began Jiujitsu because training after 14 years and working in the fitness industry and studying it and writing programmes all day, every day you kind of get a bit, what else could I do? And I was a big sport player when I was young. I played rugby, volleyball, basketball, everything under the sun. I did it all at once. So I had really awesome parents that took me to everything, a schedule, just taking kids to practise. So I did all of that stuff. And then when I got into lifting weights, I just stopped all of it, and that's all I did was lift weights and I really put all that energy into weights and work. So it was weights and work. That's all I did. Now, there's other elements of my life that I want to, I'm married and I have kids, and I still really enjoy my work, but with training, I was like, man, it wasn't stale because I still love it and I appreciate that, especially this holiday I just did.
(00:58:50):
I really missed training. I was like, man, I can't wait to train. But I was at a point where I was like, oh, I'm a little bit over training. So with jujitsu, it's exciting because it's new and it's a lot of technique with exercises in the gym. Technique's not a problem for me. I know everything to do with training, obviously I can always improve and there's new exercises potentially to learn or new ways to do things that I'm always aware of. But generally, you know how to do a pushup, you know how to do squats and all that kind of stuff. You know how to tick the boxes. But with Jiujitsu technique is a bit more endless to me. It's like, what is this? And I'm using my body in a way that I've never really done it, and I'm understanding concepts. And then there's standup wrestling part of it. Then there's on the ground, and then there's different positions and all this kind of stuff. So for me at the moment, I'm like this,
Cindy (00:59:36):
You're challenging yourself in so many different ways.
Brock (00:59:39):
I'm like, this is exciting.
Cindy (00:59:40):
And that's what it is. It's not having something to challenge you and I guess a goal of some sort where you're driven by that, then yeah, training can become stale depending on what type of person you are. For example, my husband trains to feel good. He doesn't necessarily want to have a goal, or he doesn't necessarily care about following a programme each six to seven weeks or whatever. He just wants to go and feel good, and that's what he does, and he's happy doing so, and that's great. Whatever makes you happy, depending on what type of person you are. For me, I'm very goal-driven. And I'm assuming you might be.
Brock (01:00:24):
Yeah, yeah. If I don't have a goal, I just flail about, and then you just feel disappointed in yourself. You feel like you may have just wasted time. So yeah, I like having that goal as well, because you feel like you're moving somewhere, but then I feel like sometimes there's elements of your life where you can be very goal oriented and then sometimes you really aren't. And I feel like we only have, I talked about this in a post the other day. We have a hundred points of energy. This is just one way to look at it, and you can choose how much you give. So with training, you might give 80, and then you might not have much leftover for other areas. So that may be less regimented because you're not as, you don't have as much energy to do it because you can regimen and structure, but it's quite hard to have a perfectly balanced life. It's more like
Cindy (01:01:11):
What is balanced? I hate that
Brock (01:01:13):
Word. Yeah, me too. It just doesn't exist. But it's more like where do you put your energy at the moment? And I like to think it of as points, then you understand that it's finite. When you think of energy, sometimes you think it's this magical thing that doesn't end, but if that was so we would just have these awesome lives and just never get burnt out. But it's, at the moment, quite a lot of energy goes into, for me, jujitsu and family and work and things like that. So when I'm doing weights, I need to follow my own programme that I'm writing for other people. I don't really want to think about it. If I'm writing another programme for myself, that's more time and more energy and things like that. So I know that I write good programmes for other people, so I'm like, alright, I'll just do my own programme. It's just, I just have less energy for it.
Cindy (01:01:54):
Yeah, I mean, I wish that we could keep track of our body battery and just kind of really know where we're at throughout the day.
Brock (01:02:01):
Actually, we were talking about this with my wife and I, we've been flying on holiday for a while. I think everyone's batteries are dead. They're so exhausted. We'd get on the plane and everyone was like, everyone's just out to it. Everyone's super loud. It's super bright and it's not comfortable to be in a seat yet all the adults are just gone. I feel like a lot of people are beyond tired.
Cindy (01:02:31):
Oh, a hundred percent. We're
Brock (01:02:32):
All, I would put myself in that category too. I'm not saying that these guys are, I was like, man, I could have slipped like that too. Yeah,
Cindy (01:02:39):
Well that's why time's going so quick. Like you're always moving and doing something, and if not, you're asleep. You know what I mean? It's like work, train. This little, I was talking about this the other day where I literally as a parent, which you might come across now or soon, but you literally have to schedule time with your partner because it is not as simple as, Hey, we're home together, let's hang out. You are either cooking a meal or cleaning up, cleaning the toys up or attending to the kids and putting them to bed. And then you literally have zero time for anything else because if you don't get to bed by a certain time, then you're not getting your seven hours of sleep. So yeah, it's nuts. We are all, and then socialising. Who has time for
Brock (01:03:26):
That? Yeah, I think at the point that we are at, we're not at the point of scheduling time together yet. We only have one child, so when she's asleep, we're hanging out. Yeah,
Cindy (01:03:36):
That's beautiful. And I'm assuming she gets to bed fairly early,
Brock (01:03:40):
But does she stay asleep? That's another question. So she's not the best sleeper at our daughter, so it's kind of like there's intervals where she'll put her down, eat and then she might wake up. So go. But anyway, so we're not at that yet, but we're at the point of socialising with other people. It has to be scheduled and family and stuff like that, which you don't want to do or admit, but if you don't do that, then you don't see anyone. And then you just become this hermit for relationship that never sees anyone, which is
Cindy (01:04:14):
Not healthy.
Brock (01:04:15):
Well, yeah, it's worse. You'd rather be regimented and see people and do things like that than just try and leave it up to chance, because that chance doesn't really happen anymore. Back in the day when you're single and you're working and you have no responsibilities, you could do whatever you want. Someone's like, Hey man, you want to come for dinner? You're like, yeah, I'm free now. It's like, are you serious today? I know. And you're like, nah, I can't do that. Time just becomes super precious and it has to be very intentional. But one thing I've learned is it kind of teaches you to be efficient, present with what you're doing. And maybe when I was younger, I was not as present with the things I was doing. I had more time. So I was like, oh, I can just kind of
Cindy (01:05:00):
Take things for granted,
Brock (01:05:01):
Do a bit of this, do a bit of that. It's cool. This task I could probably do in half an hour, but I might drag it out to two hours and half, do it, half watch a movie and be like, then not really do work. But now, especially during the workday, when I come here, I'm like, let's do this. Because when I get home, things just continue rolling.
Cindy (01:05:25):
And I think it's also important over time, you actually learn it's quality over quantity in terms of who you choose to spend your time with. And when I got into this sport, I actually lost friends. And I've had situations where we didn't really understand each other anymore because I guess, again, people have this perception of the bodybuilding world and it's sometimes a negative look on it. And I've honestly lost friends along the way if they don't really understand me and understand what I'm about. And nor do they really want to, then they're not in my circle
Brock (01:06:07):
Or were they a friend initially? Were they,
Cindy (01:06:11):
Yeah.
Brock (01:06:11):
Is the question. Yeah, because you think your friends would support you, whatever you want to do, as long as it's not harming them or other people, it's making you better. You're really enjoying it. So you think your friend would just get behind it. I know there's worse things to do,
Cindy (01:06:26):
But think social media just, it's obviously contributing to this, the way that the bodybuilding world looks. I think because of a lot of athletes who, I don't know, maybe oversexualize themselves in ways by posting body pictures. And I'm not saying I definitely love the fact that you can celebrate your hard work by posting a photo, whatever, in a bikini or whatever it may be. But it's just depending on how you do that and be tasteful. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I don't follow many people who post those kind of pictures but are really raunchy and that kind of thing. I don't do that. And I think that's why a lot of people have this perception, because there are a lot of people that do their into bodybuilding, but then they kind of just, I don't know. It's just a different,
Brock (01:07:19):
Yeah, no, there's that whole side. I'm definitely, it's a different side to it. I'm definitely away from that side. But there, it's a crossover. It's really weird. It's kind of becoming so personal trainers. It's not a weird thing now. So I've heard, because I don't follow them, but it's quite strange. I have a following in America that's quite large. It's bigger than I have a following in Australia and New Zealand where I'm from. I dunno why maybe, I dunno, it's stuck there. He's a kiwi and he's not an American, but it's not weird for a personal trainer to have an OnlyFans account as well. Yeah,
Cindy (01:07:58):
I
Brock (01:07:58):
Know. And then I get asked a lot, do you have one? And I'm like, no. And then if you think about it, why would a personal trainer have an only fancy account? Yeah's personal. It's just so common. Not it could be, but it's not really a personal trainer. Because if you were to hire a personal trainer, you'd want them to think about training in their spare time, not trying to film themselves to sell it online. You would want a personal trainer studying training, training people, programming, doing what a personal trainer should do. And you can't do two things like that. I don't know. It's just, and photos and videos and things like that. It's like, how close can I get to sexualizing this that it's not too far. But then with every video like that, the needle just keeps moving a little bit to what's acceptable. And then there's just this what you thought fitness was originally, and when I first started in 20, oh no, it wasn't then. Well, 14 years ago, anyway, there were dudes that had their shirts off and stuff like that, but it was never like they're trying to seduce you. It was like, Hey, I'm jacked. And I was like, oh, I want to look like that. But now it's kind of like, Hey, I'm Jack, do you think I'm cute? Oh my God, do you want to pay for my own thing? Some of is
Cindy (01:09:09):
Real at uc, it's different. Yeah. Just so, but I just think that's why I said it's how you do it. You can post a photo of your physique in a tasteful way, or I remember back in the day, I wouldn't even post a glute shot. I would totally avoid it. There is no way you would see a glute shot of me on my social media. And now sure I do because I celebrate my progress and it's the way that I do it. It's not, Hey, look at my backside, I'm so sexy. It is, Hey, I've worked really hard to grow this muscle because that's what I have to do to fit the criteria of my sport. It not, do you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's just all in that, and I think, yeah.
Brock (01:09:58):
Yeah, it's, I'm not the biggest fan of the way that it's going, but I think that there's also, people are playing a part by making that popular. And I think that it's important for people that are in the sport, yourself, myself, I step into that position that don't go that way because there has to be some sort of line where it's like, okay, I posted a video yesterday and then there was this guy, and I have a lot of men that follow me. Quite a lot of them are gay. And I have a lot of gay clients too. And even when I was a face-to-face personal trainer, I had gay clients too.
(01:10:43):
And this guy was like, he posted this because he knows his audience or something like that. And I was like, I don't think, oh, I have gay clients. I'm going to post this video too to try and provoke them in some way. Then that's going to make, I was like, so I replied to him, but I was like, man, that is not what I'm trying to do here. This is very different. But then there's, at the same time, I'm trying to understand where they're coming from and you can't blame them because there is a lot of people that will do that. Yeah, absolutely. And there's massive pages like that that are doing that. So it's tricky because then they just kind of group you and into, oh, you're into fitness. Oh yeah, hundred percent. You're like that, and you are,
Cindy (01:11:22):
It's just generalising.
Brock (01:11:23):
Or you're a bikini chick, then yeah, you are this. Yeah,
Cindy (01:11:27):
It's the way of the world. And with everything, there's good and bad in everything. There's two sides of everything. So yeah, sure enough, there's two sides of bodybuilding and it's just picker eye.
Brock (01:11:38):
Yeah, exactly. I think you've made a great move to think of being an athlete and being a bodybuilder, getting back to what is really important and getting rid of the fluff outside of it, a hundred, like the following and this and that,
Cindy (01:11:54):
All that fluff, really just what it did in the end. It used to affect me mentally. It used to make me feel like I was an imposter. I wasn't being my true self. I didn't like who I was becoming. I really didn't like it. And that's why I got rid of all of it. And one of the athletes that I am inspired by a knife PB is Laura Lee. She's A-I-F-P-B pro. And this stuck with me forever. I remember once she was talking about being an athlete first, I'm an athlete first. The rest comes after, for example, she's very, very picky about the sponsors that she chooses and who's to work, who to work with, and what sort of content she puts on her page. And you look at her page and it's very much her workouts. It's very much athlete first. And I was so inspired by that. I'm like, that's exactly what I want. That's exactly who I want to be. So with that mentality, you know what I mean, comes the actions that follow.
Brock (01:12:57):
Yeah. I think that's the best way to move forward with anything. People are trying to pursue a following before having a reason to have that following. It's more like, I just want to be famous, or I want to be big on Instagram. I want to be big on YouTube. It's not like I want to be good at something that's going to make me big. It's kind of the wrong way
Cindy (01:13:20):
Around, or I want to compete. It seems like it's the popular thing to do right now, it seems like. You know what I mean? Yeah. So yeah, again, it's backwards. Check yourself. What are your reasons? What's your why? And my why continues to be the same. I struggled a lot with mental health. I still do. Having raising a special needs child is incredibly challenging. It is a daily, daily challenge where I am always faced with having to be my best self to be the best mom I could be. And when I'm performing in the gym, when I'm doing what I do for myself, I feel like I'm at my best. So I think that's why, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever stop. Do you know what I mean? And when I said to you before, I picked up surfing and I'm trying to put my energy into other things to see if I get the same high, I guess the same feeling, the same return.
(01:14:13):
But yeah, no, bodybuilding for me just gives me that. It gives energy and that drive. So I think that's why I do it. And my daughter is honestly progressing beautifully and doing wonderful things, and it just inspires me even more because her daily challenge is just the small things, the really, really small things, communicating or doing things like self-care, looking after herself, and all of those things are incredibly challenging for her. And I look at her and I just think, God, if she can do this every day and she pushes to be her best every day, I sure as hell can do the same. So getting up early and going to the gym every day and doing what I do, sure, it's a juggle. All of this is a juggle, but I can do it. It's hard, but I can do it.
Brock (01:15:07):
Yeah. I think it comes back to gratitude. So when I was younger, I lost my mother, and then I had, since then, I've had an overwhelming sense of gratitude because you understand what it's like to lose something or just experience hardship. And for me, I find this thing, especially in jujitsu, where if I'm rolling with someone, I dunno if this is a lie or not, but it's a feeling. It's a bad opening. It's a feeling. It's a feeling. Sometimes I feel like when I roll with someone, I can tell if they've gone through hard things or not, because it's kind of about how fast they give up. And it's just a thing in my head that I keep, and maybe it's not a right way to measure it, but because it's so physical, and so you're putting people in tricky positions, you're like, if someone just
Cindy (01:16:04):
Almost like the passion behind it
Brock (01:16:06):
And the commitment, and even though it's just the sport, but it can reveal a lot. And it could be the same with training in the gym. If you've trained with someone and they stop really early and you're like, man, you had two more. And they're like, no, no, I'm good. You maybe you haven't faced as much demons as I have. But that sense of gratitude keeps you going, and it keeps you appreciating the things that sometimes people don't even see. And I feel like that may help you, I guess, because you are with your daughter, you're seeing what other people have to go through, what your daughter has to go through just to get by. And then you are like, man, if they can do that, then surely I can lift some weights or yeah, I can do the hearts do along. I can do the, or be a little bit more tired or stay up a bit later to do this and do that. Yeah.
Cindy (01:17:03):
That's why sometimes when I have a lot of moms message me and just find me inspirational. Just say, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. And sometimes it's almost like I don't even understand why they're saying that to me. I don't know. It's just so ingrained in me. It just feels like it's simple to me. I don't know. It just seems really simple to me. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it's a juggle, but it just seems really simple. I don't dunno if that makes sense, if I'm articulating it correctly.
Brock (01:17:31):
I think you're just a few steps ahead of them. You've gone past that point of thinking, oh, this is hard. Or why me, or blah blah. You're like, you've moved on from that. I think we talked about it earlier, how you were, I think it was before we were recording, but you were saying at the start you're like, oh, it was hard to balance everything, or hundred percent or training was too hard. And you were kind of like, oh, this is overwhelming and stuff. But then you've kind of hardened your shell and just kind of got to a point where, well, this is just what we have to do. So then you just do it. But sometimes people aren't there yet and they haven't gone through the shit that you have to go through to be like, well, it's just what happens. It's just you be grateful and you just do the things that you have to do because yeah,
Cindy (01:18:25):
I
Brock (01:18:25):
Dunno. It just has to be done.
Cindy (01:18:26):
The key thing is just really knowing who you are, knowing who you are, knowing the reason why you do what you do. And I think that's what will keep you in check. And I think the messiness from my early days came from not sticking to that, not sticking to who I am as a person, not really, I guess aligning with the reason why I was doing it in the first place and doing other things that didn't align with that. So I think that's the key takeaway is just really stick to who you are at the core and don't let society or other people drive your decisions.
Brock (01:19:08):
So how would you encourage people to find that?
Cindy (01:19:12):
I guess it takes a lot of self-work. It doesn't happen overnight. So yeah, it's really just looking within and really just doing the work for me was, I don't know. I guess it's the challenges that I face with my daughter or the time that make me look within and kind of understand myself as a person and my reactions and why I do things and why I act a certain way. And I guess she's my mirror. So that's probably how I've grown as a person. So it would be different for everybody, but whatever it is that makes you hold that mirror up and really, you know what I mean, really makes you check yourself.
Brock (01:19:56):
Yeah. I've found that the tricky times that I've been through kind of give you that time to reset. And sometimes people don't have that time to, because there's been times where I'd say I've done the self-work where I would never really have done that if I didn't lose my mom or if there's a few things that have happened, not as bad as that. That's definitely been the one that's been the most earth shattering thing, course of what now. But with these hard things that we face, you have to either grow or you could just kind of get beaten by it. So I feel like we have had this opportunity and we're like, well, we have to grow to move on. And then you do that work that I feel like levels up your character or your resilience, because I would hit these times. And then there was other times where I turned 20 and I had this, I call it a midlife crisis, but I was like 20, so I hope I make it longer than 40. But I broke down, I was doing pursuing music, and I was very serious about it. Right,
Cindy (01:21:05):
Because you sing, right?
Brock (01:21:06):
Yeah, I sing and I was pursuing it full on, and then I was in a band and we broke up. I went to the record label and did it myself. So that was pretty full on as well, because we were a band. They were in a city that we grew up in. And then I moved to Auckland in New Zealand to be the happening place for music Auckland. It's not like Christchurch, what goes on in Christchurch, nothing, especially after the earthquakes, there was nothing there. So I moved to Auckland, they were supposed to come, they didn't end up coming. So I kind of just moved to a city on my own, and I was like, let's make it happen. We did some gigs and then I was like, this isn't working. Let's break up. So we broke up and I was like, what the hell do I do with myself now? I was in my head, I'm a failed singer. I'm a failed this and that, blah, blah, blah. So I was on the ground crying. I was like, who am I? And I thought it was like the end of the world. I was 20. And then I look back now and laugh, but I was like,
Cindy (01:22:07):
On everything is very dramatic.
Brock (01:22:09):
It was very dramatic. I was like, I'm old, and I just turned 20 from 19. I was like, mate. But that really forced me. I'm grateful for it. Now, to come back to that thing of gratitude that I mentioned, I was like, that made me grow up and level up really quick talk, because I was like, well, I have no one. So I couldn't lean on anyone. I had no family there. And I lived in a house full of strangers that I didn't really know. So I was like, okay. So I just grew up really quick. So I got a job. I got qualified as a personal trainer, and then I got a job at a gym, and then I started working really hard. And then these other things kind of just started coming. But without that hardship or gratitude to keep pushing on, I would never have developed into the person who I am. And it sounds like the same for you.
Cindy (01:22:50):
Absolutely. But it's also not everyone can push through. People experience hardship and it consumes them, and they take a different route. And I think having a support is so important. And if you don't have it, I mean, I guess you're amazing. You push through that. But for me, for example, I sometimes had my dad step in and give me a reality check. There'd be times where I'd be like, I don't understand. Why is this my life? Why is it's so hard? Because there'd be days where we couldn't go out into public. My daughter would have meltdowns, and we couldn't do a lot of things. We were really restricted as a family, and it would be really hard. It would be really hard to get through a weekend because I felt like there was just no respite. And my would say, my dad's very matter of fact, he's very, that kind of person that just says wise words.
(01:23:52):
And so sometimes he would just be like, these are the cards you've been dealt. And it was as simple as that. It was as simple as just giving me a reality check that you can't sit there and wallow. You can't sit there and feel sorry for yourself because these are the cards you've been dealt. Make the most out of it. What are you going to do? Do you know what I mean? It was just like those words, just, it was like a light switch for me. I would think, you're right. She's my daughter. I'm her mother. I've got to make the most out of this. I've just got to push through. I can't sit here and wallow. That's not going to do anybody good. Do you know what I mean?
Brock (01:24:29):
Yeah. And then if you keep going down that path, it can just get, you could spiral. It can just get worse and worse and worse, lead to other things that won't be beneficial for you. So you have to stop it and be like, okay, this is, yeah.
Cindy (01:24:45):
And sometimes you can do that on your own or sometimes you just, there'll be someone in your support system that
Brock (01:24:52):
Yeah, preferably you'd want to have other people around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just didn't have the choice.
Cindy (01:24:59):
Yeah. But you obviously did that on your own where you kind of just said to yourself,
Brock (01:25:02):
Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Well, usually when I wrap up the podcast, I say, where can people find you? But it sounds like you're not,
Cindy (01:25:15):
I don't want to be found.
Brock (01:25:17):
I will remain anonymous, but yeah. Do you want people to send people anywhere?
Cindy (01:25:25):
Sure. I will just filter them.
Brock (01:25:27):
Okay. So if you want to be requested or accepted, you can send in your request. I'm just
Cindy (01:25:34):
Joking. Yeah, no. I am on Instagram, obviously. Yeah,
Brock (01:25:39):
Just don't be creepy. Don't be creepy. So if you're a creep, you can stop listening. But if you're not a creep, how could people find you?
Cindy (01:25:46):
What's my Instagram? So it's Cindy
Brock (01:25:48):
Or wherever you want to send people or say anything.
Cindy (01:25:52):
Well, so I mean, I live on the central coast. I train at Impact Gym, which is an amazing gym. I love it.
Brock (01:25:57):
It looks awesome. Yeah,
Cindy (01:25:58):
It's so cool. Looks
Brock (01:25:59):
So big and
Cindy (01:25:59):
Spacious. The big warehouse gyms. I cannot train at any or any of those gyms anymore because it just feel like little boxes.
Brock (01:26:07):
My gyms are
Cindy (01:26:07):
Worse. Yeah. I can't do it. So yes. And it's been great because I've met quite a few girls that compete as well, and they're moms, so we all gel. And yeah, it's great culture there. Very, very, very beautiful culture. Cool. Yeah. So yeah, that's me.
Brock (01:26:22):
Okay. So yeah. Do you want to give your Instagram one now?
Cindy (01:26:26):
Yeah, it's Cindy Cordova Alo. That's my maiden name and my surname. Yeah,
Brock (01:26:32):
I was trying to figure that out.
Cindy (01:26:34):
What is that? I just felt like I still want my maiden name around, and I never did it officially. I got married, I just became Cindy, but my dad's surname is very meaningful to me. I even got it tattooed on my arm.
Brock (01:26:48):
He sounds like a wise man. Yeah. Cool. All right, well, we'll wrap it there. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. And before we go, I appreciate that you are a person that's sticking to what you are true to. And I think that if not just the fitness industry, but everywhere else, if people really stick to that, they need to be a better place. Because there are a lot of people that are doing things, like we said before, in reverse, okay, how can this get the most views? I'm going to be that person. How can this look the best? I'm going to do that. Instead of just going, what should I do? Or what feels good for me? Oh, that feels good, then I'll do that. It's more so does it align with who I am? Yeah. That should be the door. You go in first. As opposed to the final door where you've already gone through these other doors. It's like, okay, does this look cool? Do I sound cool? Do I look cool in this? And will people like this? And then the last question is like, do I like this? But it's too late. It should be the other way around. Because often it's not going to be what you like. It's like what others like. And
Cindy (01:27:53):
I think your body will tell you as well. I think you'll have, if you're about to post something and it's not really who you are, it doesn't align with you. I used to remember getting anxiety, like gut feelings, like a gut feeling before posting. You'd almost like second guess, do I post this? If you are getting that, that's already an indication. That's already your body setting. Sending alarm bells. Don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah.
Brock (01:28:19):
Yeah. Well, yeah. I hope people will be more like you and yeah, I will continue to follow that light as well.
Cindy (01:28:26):
Yeah. Thank you so much. Cool. And keep doing what you're doing. It's amazing. Yeah,
Brock (01:28:30):
I will. Cheers.
Cindy (01:28:31):
Thanks.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 48 of the Bid with Brock podcast. In today's episode, we're going to be doing something that I would like to call giving back to the people. I have some comments on social media that I want to answer because that is ultimately what you want to know. I can think of ideas and brainstorm content, ideas that you want to understand and that you want to grow your knowledge from questions that you want answered, and ultimately the way that I usually find videos to make is the questions that you ask. So I'm just going to go through my socials. I've taken some screenshots of some comments, and I'm just going to break them down for you because this is obviously what you want to know before I jump into the podcast. If you do have any questions that you specifically want to know and you haven't been jumping on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube and commenting back then you can send an email to team@teambrockashby.com or on any platform, send me a DM and ask me. I'll most probably get back to you, but email is better because that is more of a priority to me. So if you do want your question answered, send through an email. Let's get into this podcast.
(01:07):
The first question is actually not really a question, but it's from a hater that I received this morning and I kind of just want to get this out of the way first. It was on a transformation post that I posted last night. I recently did a eight week challenge of mine, the built by Brock eight week challenge, and I lost just over four kilos, 4.1 kg, which is around nine pounds in eight weeks, and I posted my two photos from the start of the challenge and the end of the challenge beside each other and explained how I did it. Pretty much. I'll read the caption just so you understand how I did it, because I think that is also valuable information, and then I'll read the comment out and tell you what they said. So I put 91.9 kg verse 87.8 kg just over four kg in eight weeks.
(01:56):
This is how I did it. Number one, I ate 200 calories below my maintenance for five weeks, 3,300 calories per day, then drop my calories down another 200 calories to 3,100 calories per day for the last three weeks to keep the deficit going. I kept the protein high and also my carbs as high as possible. I hate low carb diets and refuse to do them. Number two, trained exactly the same. I lifted heavy close to failure and maintained my standard frequency of five days lifting per week in three juujitsu sessions. The training we do to build muscle is the same way to maintain muscle in a deficit. Remember that number three, my steps stayed the same in average of 12 to 15,000 per day. Lastly, sorry, number four, lastly, I didn't cheat my diet or give up on my workouts, which a lot of people will do when they do extreme shit like the keto diet or train two times per day because it's hardcore.
(02:51):
You don't need to do extreme hardcore stuff to get results, train smart, train hard, and stick to the game plan. If you do that, you will, and if you don't, you'll be another failed diet statistic. Hope this helped you Brock Flex emoji. And the reason I posted this was because I know how to lose weight. I've been coaching people, I've been doing it myself, building muscle, dropping body fat, building muscle, dropping body fat. The cycle continues. I've been continually learning from the best people in the world and learning from anecdotal experience with my clients, and that is what I do. There's no extreme stuff. I'm not taking any pills. I'm not. I'm supplementing creatine and beta alanine. There's nothing mind boggling about that. My diet doesn't change drastically. My training doesn't change drastically. My steps don't change drastically. I literally just do everything the same that I do to maintain my physique but consume less calories. So I wanted to give this no BSS approach, and a lot of people in the comments were super stoked for that post. And then some snarky dude literally four hours ago with no profile picture. Of course, how strange whether you weigh 92 kg or 88 kg, you never put fat on your abdomen. You're not 100% natural either. That's obvious.
(04:13):
So I replied, it's not really that strange. I hold less body fat on my abdomen and more on my legs. That's why I have abs. Even at higher body fat percentages must be steroids though, right? It's obvious I was just being sarcastic, but I want to break down why I do have a lean body fat percentage year round or look lean, and it's what I said in the comment. I've done a DEXA scan before and my body fat that I carry is predominantly in my legs. That's where I hold most of my body fat, kind of like a chick. A lot of females will hold majority of their body fat in their quads and their hamstrings and in their glutes, and that's just the way that they carry their body fat. I think it may have something to do with the fact that they bear children and they have weight around their hips.
(05:09):
I don't know if I just made that up. It kind of makes sense, but it's also potentially bro science. So take that with a grain of salt, but most females carry weight there. Obviously that is a generalisation. Everyone holds their body fat in different places and in different percentages. Some I've trained ladies that are like, I really can't shake the fat on the back of my arms. They called it one of 'em called them canteen arms. The old ladies at the canteen that would have, let's say F FLA underneath their elbows or they called them wings or something like that, but men have that too. Men store fat there. Some men store a lot of fat in their chest and then they get a little bit self-conscious about them not having this of shredded chest that they might think it looks slightly more feminine. A lot of people struggle with belly fat and they just store a lot of fat there.
(06:09):
So we're all different. I store most of my fat and my legs not on my stomach. My DEXA scan actually told me when I did it that I actually store the least amount of body fat on my abdomen, on my stomach, which is why I look lean year round. So a lot of people think potentially that I'm leaner than I actually am, but if you saw my body fat overall, I don't post naked photos or photos in Speedos or photos in underwear and stuff like that, so you can't really see the fat on my legs, but I do have more fat on my legs than I do everywhere else. Even my arms, my shoulders, my back. I don't hold much fat there, and this isn't me trying to brag, ha, look at my genetics. It's just the way that I was born. It's the way that my body fat stores in my body and you listening to this podcast, you have a different spread of body fat on your body.
(07:08):
You may store more fat on your arms and more on your belly and none on your legs. You might have super lean legs when you go for a swim or if you wear budgie smugglers or if you're in a bikini, whatever, you might have super lean legs. Your quads might be popping, but you may struggle with belly fat and that may always just be like that last part that just never goes and you just struggle or maybe side fat. A lot of people are like, how do I burn side fat? How do I eliminate side fat? I got that question this morning. The answer is you just have to lose overall body fat. If you want to drop body fat, you can't spot reduce body fat. We know that if you do sit-ups, it doesn't make your belly fat disappear. If you do bicep kills, it doesn't make your arm fat disappear.
(07:58):
If you do pushups, your chest fat doesn't disappear. Exercises in the gym in the weight room are for building muscle mass, not for spot reducing body fat. Body fat just comes down overall on your body. I did this example, this analogy in another podcast, maybe it was last week or the week before, but it's kind of like taking a bucket of water and scooping it out of a swimming pool on the left side of the pool and continuing to scoop it out. The pool's just going to go down slowly everywhere, not on the left side of the pool. It's the same thing with your body fat. We just lose fat overall, our overall body fat percentage decreases, but where we store body fat stays the same in those percentages. So that is why I look lean because let's say if we run with that analogy, my swimming pool has a certain shape and that swimming pool is less fat on my abs, more fat on my legs and just the way that culture is and the way that I guess we dress, we usually cover our legs with shorts or with pants and we take our shirt off to go for a swim or I'm in the fitness industry, I train with my shirt off, I post shirtless photos.
(09:12):
So you see the leanest part. Let's say you see the best part of my physique and you don't see where most of my fat is. Often people will think I'm like 10% body fat, 8%, 7%, which is crazy, but really it's much higher if you take into consideration my lower body where most of my fat is stored. I wanted to clarify that because a lot of people, especially people that consume content online when they follow fitness influencers, personal trainers or people that just have really great physiques, they get really disheartened when they look at people's physiques because they go, oh man, that's never going to be me or I don't look like that. So I'm trying to bring light and bring attention to the fact that that is just the way that I'm genetically made. Yes, I train hard. Yes, I watch my macros and calories, I weigh my food, I track my calories, I train hard.
(10:04):
I follow a structured programme. I do a lot of these things, right, because it's my job and I know a lot about it and I apply that knowledge. But even if someone else did that as well, if we did the exact same thing but they had a different genetic pool where they stored more body fat on their stomach and let's say less on their legs, you might think that I'm leaner than them just because I store less body fat on my stomach and they store more on their stomach because that is often where we look. If you see abs, you kind of go, whoa, that person's shredded. He's got abs. But really that's just kind of what society has told us because our overall body fat percentage is really what tells the real picture on how lean we are overall. So moving on also, just to finish that off, I am natural.
(10:56):
I haven't used any performance in enhancing drugs before. This is just 15 years of hard work. A comment says that I posted on a post about variety. Let me find it quickly. It says, and this was on Instagram, if you're doing a bunch of different exercises every workout in order to shock your muscles, you're confusing variety for progress. The right amount of variety keeps training interesting. Too much variety stops you from getting strong enough at exercises to build muscle and strength through progressive overload. And a person said, do you really need variety? What if I'm happy repeating the same sets? I always do weaken in week out. And that's a great question because that's confusing. A lot of people say different things. Arnold Schwarzenegger back in the day said, you have to change muscles up. You've got to shock the muscles. And then a lot of people jumped on that, oh, I need to shock the muscles.
(11:59):
So I need to just like one day I'm going to do dumbbell chest press for my chest and the next day I'm going to do chest flies and then I'm going to do pushups, then I'm going to do chest press machine, then I'm going to do incline bench press, then I'm going to do decline dumbbell chest press. Then I'm going to do dumbbell chest fly and just keep rotating these exercises and shocking your body shock your muscles. And a lot of people bought that for a while, but that is not how it works. We know better than that. Now, the thing that matters for building muscle, which is what we're trying to do in the gym, is progressive overload. That's what we want to focus on. We want to focus on getting stronger at movements and that is done best when we do that movement repetitively.
(12:40):
That is why we change programmes anywhere between every three to six weeks. I like to do one month just because it works better. There's 12 months in a year. You can do 12 programmes in a year. It kind of works. Okay, January, I did this programme February, I did this programme. It's just easy. But that doesn't mean it has to be every four weeks. It can be anywhere between three to six. And with that repetition of doing the same exercise, again, it emphasises this saying that I heard quite a while back, strength is a skill and strength is a skill reiterates the fact that you need repetition. So with any skill that we develop and that we progress, we need to do that skill over and over and over and over again. The skill of sport, let's say we're playing cricket and we're trying to see the ball come down as the person's balling and practise our batting.
(13:39):
We need to see lots of balls. We need to do a lot of practise at training, seeing people bold to us so we can get a better eye. There's a skill of seeing the ball. I played cricket once I hit three balls and then I got bold because I wasn't adjusted to seeing the ball. I didn't know what happened when it hit the pitch and bounced whether they were doing spin or whether they were doing a speedball, I couldn't. I didn't really know how to hold the bat because I had no skill or I had very, very, very little skill because I had no repetition of that skill. And the same thing goes with strength. We need to practise these exercises to become efficient at these exercises and once we're efficient at something, we can do it better. And in the gym that means lifting more weight and lifting more weight means progressive overload.
(14:31):
And if you can't lift more weight, you do the same weight that you did last week. But for more reps, because that also is progressive overload, the load is getting heavier over time, and if we do variety every single time and we change exercises, we don't get good enough at that exercise because we just keep changing it. So we're always kind of in this learning phase of an exercise as opposed to this perfecting stage of an exercise where we're finally nailing the technique. We're nailing the tempo for the phase of workouts that you're doing and you're nailing the coordination. You're finally really stable. You just keep adding weight or adding reps and then after three to six weeks, you're probably going to plateau on that exercise for that rep range that you're doing. You probably can't do that extra rep on the same weight or you can't do that next weight up.
(15:26):
You've hit a plateau. That's fine. That's what we want at the end of a programme because now it's time to move on to a different programme with a different stimulus, with different reps, potentially different exercises so that we can continue to make progress for that muscle group but on a different exercise in a different context. So variety is important because as I said in my post, it keeps things interesting, but there's a balance between staying interested and getting results, and this is why I have a problem with F 45 and pump class for building muscle. I don't have a problem. If you want to do it in your spare time or for your training, knock yourself out. As long as you enjoy it and it's going to be sustainable for you, go ahead. But there's going to be a limit to how much muscle you can build in an F 45 classroom or in a pump class that you're doing at Les Mills because there's always variety.
(16:23):
They're changing the classes every time you go, it's different. And that's cool for interest and like, man, training's so fun. I've never done this before. I've never done that before. Oh man, we haven't done this for months. I love this exercise, but you're not going to get strong at it. If pump class was the same every time, it wouldn't be successful because people would get bored. People say, I've done this and I think this is why a lot of people don't really build that much muscle mass. A lot of people kind of just keep going to the gym doing the same thing over and over and over again and they just get bored or they can't handle that boredom, so they change things all the time and they are doing a different exercise for a different muscle group every single workout. So if you're changing things too much, you're never going to progress in strength on that exercise and successfully apply progressive overload, which is the key to ability muscle.
(17:17):
On the other side of things, if you just do the same thing over and over and over again, this person has commented like, can I just do the same thing week in, week out? You can, but you are going to hit that plateau in three to six weeks. So if you get all you can out of that workout programme or just out of a specific exercise for three to six weeks, but you do it for six months, you are plateauing for five months and you're not applying progressive overload, you are not getting stronger, you're not building muscle, you might actually start losing muscle or just maintaining. But let's say you're doing a back squat and in three to six weeks you progress it, progress it, progress it, and then you can't get any stronger. You can't do more reps with the same weight and you can't apply progressive overload through lifting more weight.
(18:03):
Once that happens at the end of that week, you need to think of changing that back squat out for a similar movement, doing the same thing. You could do a leg press, you could do a split squat, you could do a lunge so that now you go back into a learning phase for a different exercise, it still hits the same muscle, but now you're hitting a different stimulus, you're hitting the muscle in a different way, you're doing a different exercise. You go from a back squat to doing a leg press. It's similar, but it's different. So it's a new stimulus and now you can start to go through that learning phase of that exercise of that rep range and of that tempo that you're doing, and then you can start applying progressive overload through the leg press. So now your leg press is kind of like building, building.
(18:53):
Meanwhile, your back squat is desensitising so that when you put back squats back in and your leg press fatigues, let's just say you want to go back to back squatting, you do leg press for three to six weeks, you're going to go back to back squat and it's going to be like you haven't back squatted for a while and you're going to get back to that learning phase and apply progressive overflow and get stronger and stronger and stronger. Hopefully when you go back to that back squat, you're going to be at a higher place that you started when you first did it, and that is how we continue to apply progressive overload and get stronger at certain exercises. That is the thinking behind the programming behind variety, behind sticking to the same muscle groups and progressing. So hopefully that's helped. Let's jump into another comment. We have one here.
(19:46):
Okay, cool. So I posted a video that was called How I Lost four kg in seven weeks, and this was just before I finished the challenge and I was talking about how I lost four kilos and I was trying to lose four kilos in eight weeks. I did it in seven, so I just went to maintenance for the last week and someone put me losing five kg in three weeks, kind of like, Hey, I beat you. I lost five kilos in three weeks. You only only lost four and seven. The reason I bring this up is because fat loss is not a race, and just because this person lost an extra kilo four weeks faster than me doesn't mean that their diet was more successful because it turns out I wasn't trying to lose as much weight as possible. I was going for four kilos in eight weeks, and this is why it's important to set goals, especially when you're pursuing fat loss because if you are just starting a fat loss phase and you're just going, I'm to lose as much weight as possible and that's it, then you have no finish line and you're just going to keep going and keep going and keep going, and that can be okay for some people, but if you have a goal, you know when to stop.
(21:04):
I did. I was like, I'm losing four kilos and that's it. So I was trying to do it in eight weeks.
(21:12):
That is around half a kilo per week. That was my goal. Half a kilo, that's about a pound a week, nothing impressive, something very slow, very easy. I didn't really feel like I was dieting. I did have to sacrifice extra calories to get into that calorie deficit, but I didn't find it too tough. I wasn't struggling. My training was still okay. I did feel it by the end of the eight weeks, but overall the diet was like a nine out of 10. I felt okay, and I travelled. I ate out. I ate out with my wife and my daughter, which I really enjoy. We travelled to Gold Coast to go to a wedding. Even at a wedding, I was dieting. I was going through it and I think the reason that I lost a little bit too much weight was because I went to the wedding and at the wedding I was just being a bit cautious because you don't really know what's in the food there.
(22:01):
You don't know if they use oil, they use a tonne of butter, all that kind of stuff. So I think I was a bit more on the reserve side. So when I came back from that wedding, I think I may have lost a little bit to a little bit of extra weight, which put me ahead of schedule by 500 grammes. So I was like, stuff it. I've lost four kilos this last week. Instead of trying to lose 4.5 or five kilos and double down, I'm just going to go at maintenance. And then this person's like, well, yeah, I lost five kilos in three weeks, man, what's up? What's up with you? Man, I thought you were a personal trainer. I thought you knew what you were doing, but it's not a race. It doesn't mean that you're better than me. Set goals. It's important to know where you're going to stop because a calorie deficit is not where the best training lies.
(22:49):
It's not where the best productivity lies. It's not where the best place to build muscle is. It's a means to an end. It's a place to lose body fat. Like I always say, calorie deficit. You get in and you get out and as soon as you hit your goal, you get out and if you don't get out, you're going to be there forever. You're going to stay in a calorie deficit and you're going to be like these people that have come to me and team Brock Ashby and being coached by me and they're just stuck on low calories, they dunno what to do, and they got into a calorie deficit and they lost some weight and they just stayed there because there was no real goal. They just wanted to lose weight. I just want to lose weight. So you just do the same thing and then you just keep repeating it and then you just end up on these low calories and you're not even losing weight anymore.
(23:37):
You get into a calorie deficit, you hit your goal and then you get out. Don't worry about what other people say, oh, I'm losing more weight. You. Oh, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? No, just stick to your goal, get into your calorie deficit, and then when you hit it, you get out. If you don't hit your goal, then that's another conversation. Maybe your method wasn't correct. Maybe it wasn't the perfect time for you to start dieting. Maybe you had to bring up your calories first, build up your metabolism, actually build some muscle and then go into a fat loss phase. Maybe that needed to happen for you, but just because you lose more weight than someone else doesn't mean that you're better than that person. Like this person kind of, Hey, man, lost way more weight than you because there's so many things with fat loss that are nuanced. If this person lost five kilos in three weeks, but they had that much weight to lose, then that's fine.
(24:30):
I was only 92 kilos pretty much when I started, but if someone started at 150 kilos, five kilos in three weeks, you should have lost that much because you have that much to lose. But for someone that's 60 kilos, if you're losing five kilos in three weeks, that's too much. That's way too fast. That's unsustainable for most people. So don't compare apples to bananas. Don't compare your fat loss to someone else's fat loss because everyone's journey is different. I chose on purpose to lose fat slow. I can lose fat fast 100%. I know how to do it. I can jump into an aggressive calorie deficit, but you know what? It sucks and I don't do well on extreme calorie deficits. I know that about myself. I can't really push it. I like slow and steady. I have the patience. I'd rather just feel like I'm not dieting that much.
(25:27):
It's not that hard. It's pretty easy, and I can just sustain that for a very long amount of time. I would rather take 12 weeks to diet as opposed to hitting that same amount but in six weeks, but it's harder. I'd rather it be easier for longer because that's how I diet. If I struggle too much in my diet, I give up and I'm like, my training sucks. My energy sucks at Juujitsu. I'm thinking about food all day. I'm not happy to be around when I'm hungry. Ask my wife. It's not good. I don't want to be that person, so I don't do it. I take the long road, but I can handle that and I know what I'm getting myself into. And some people like that short aggressive calorie deficit, like bang, harsh, I'm just going to cut a thousand calories a day, and they handle it and they do it and they seem to be able to train pretty fine.
(26:22):
That strategy, in my opinion, is better for people that carry more body fat because body fat is muscle sparing. Your body's going to tap into your fat stores more so than your muscle mass if you have a lot of body fat. So if you are overweight, even if you're obese, you can probably handle that aggressive calorie deficit at the start because you have a lot of fat to burn. But if you are leaner like myself, I wouldn't class myself as overweight even though my BMI says I'm obese. Ignore that. If you lift and you have a decent amount of muscle, the BMI is more for people who don't lift the general population.
(27:03):
I'm pretty lean, so I don't have those body fat stores to protect my muscle mass, I need to have a high protein diet. I need to continue getting stronger and applying progressive overload in the gym to maintain my muscle because I'm an advanced lifter. So that's why I don't go aggressive as well, because if I have a super aggressive calorie deficit, yes, I'm going to lose weight, but I'm going to lose strength. I'm going to lose muscle. So I'm not just losing fat now I'm losing fat and muscle, and that's not good because it takes ages to build muscle. So I want to prevent muscle going away when I'm dieting. So I like to take the long term approach. So it's up to you whatever you want to pursue, you can go fast and aggressive. You can go slow and less aggressive. I just took 200 calories off my maintenance.
(27:56):
I stayed there for five weeks until it started plateauing a little bit, and then I took another 200 off and did that for three more weeks, and that worked a charm that is so simple that people don't want to hear it because it sounds too easy. And I'm not trying to say fat loss is easy. It's simple, but it's not easy because you have to navigate it through. But I'm disciplined. I've done this before. I know what to expect, so I just did it. And if you are struggling with fat loss, I hope that this helps you decide which path to take. Maybe you go aggressive, maybe you don't. Maybe you are going away on holiday in a month, so you have to be super aggressive. That's fine. Just know what you're getting yourself into when you're trying to lose fat really fast. When I first thought of doing a podcast in 2019, I wrote down everything that I wanted to achieve with the show, and one thing I never wrote down was to spam you with ads of products that I never really used myself.
(28:50):
However, I did write down that I wanted to grow it as big as possible and have as many interesting people on the show as I could to help make that happen. All I ask is that you leave a review on the podcast platform that you're listening to this episode on and share it with someone that you know it will benefit. If you want to support myself even further and more importantly, your body transformation and that interested in having me as your coach to help you achieve the results that you just can't seem to achieve on your own. You can visit team brock ashby.com to see what programme fits you best. Back to the show. This next comment was on a post that I did about exercises that are a waste of time for building muscle. And within that video I posted burpees and they said, why not burpees?
(29:33):
I get everything else. I won't spend much time on this because I've talked about this a lot, but burpees are not a muscle building exercise. They absolutely suck for building muscle unless you haven't trained at all in your life. And the reason that they're not very good is because they combine two exercises. They combine a pushup and a jump squat, and the thing that they challenge the most is your cardiovascular output. And when you are struggling for breath and working your heart, challenging your cardio, you don't really want to mix that with trying to build muscle. This is called concurrent training when you're trying to do two things that don't really align with each other and when you're doing a pushup and then going into a jump squat and then doing a pushup, going into a jump squat, you're not really getting the most out of your chest, triceps and shoulders when you're doing the pushup because you're only doing one pushup and then doing a squat jump and getting tired and then doing another tired pushup and you just keep going and going and going, but you don't really stop burpees because your chest, triceps and shoulders are sore.
(30:41):
So it's not really benefiting the muscles that you're doing a pushup with. Then let's go to the jump squat. You don't really stop a burpee because your quads are too sore from doing jump squats. You stop a burpee because you can't breathe anymore because you're so tired. So what's the limiting factor here? It's your ability to breathe. It's your cardio. When we're trying to build muscle, we don't want our cardio to be the limiting factor. We want the muscles that we're training to be the limiting factor. They need to get close to failure, not your heart or your breath. You need to get those muscles close to failure. And the best way to do that, if we are talking specifically about a burpee, is to just separate them into two different exercises. A pushup and a jump squat or just a squat. So instead of doing burpees for building muscle, what you could do is just do three sets of pushups to failure with two minutes in between.
(31:39):
That's going to be way better because the limiting factor is not going to be your heart. It's going to be your chest and your triceps and your shoulders from doing pushups. They're going to take your muscles close to failure. You're going to keep going, keep going, keep going, and then you're going to fail. Two minutes rest, you breathe, you're better. Pushups again, bang, you keep going, you keep going. Your chest fails, your shoulders fail, your triceps fail. You can't lock out, you're shaking. You go down two minutes, rest you go Again, that is much better for building muscle than doing burpees. Same thing with squats. You could do the same three sets of body weight, jump squats to failure.
(32:20):
You can't jump anymore. Your legs are just so smoked, you can't jump, and then you just take two minutes rest and then you do that again. Two minutes rest. Do that again. You see where I'm going? When you're looking at compound exercises like the burpee where you're adding two different exercises together for building muscle for hypertrophy, it's often better to just separate them into own exercises because that is how you're going to get the most out of your muscles. When you do compound exercises, often one suffers. So let's look at if we were going to do a lunge, holding dumbbells by your side, you lunge forward and then you do a lateral raise and then you lunge back, lunge forward, lateral raise, lunge back. I've seen this on the internet. People are like, save and share my workouts. And with that, when you lunge, how much weight do you use? 10 kilos, 20 kilos, 30 kilos depending on your strength. When you lateral raise, how much weight do you use? One kilo, two kilo, three five kilos, 10 kilos max, 15 kilos.
(33:37):
Can you see what's happening here? One muscle group is going to suffer massively. When you do compound exercises, you're always better separating them into two separate exercises. So if I just look at my numbers when I'm lunging, depending on how many reps I'm doing, I might do 25 or 30 kilo dumbbells in each hand When I'm lunging to get the most out of my legs, my quads, my glutes, my calves, but when I'm lateral raising, I couldn't move 30 kilo dumbbells up at all. They would not move. They would keep my hands by their side and with lateral raises.
(34:18):
Yesterday, no, the day, yeah, yesterday I did eight kilos because I had to do five second eccentrics holding it down. I did eight kilo dumbbells. If I do eight kilo dumbbell lunges, my quads are not going to get sore. They're not going to get close to failure, therefore, they're not going to build any muscle. So when we are looking at compound exercises where you're doing heaps of stuff together, if you want to build muscle, you're probably better off doing them individually. Moving on. Next comment was on a video that I did on box jumps saying that they're not a cardio exercise. They are for plyometric training or explosiveness. And someone said, you can do box jumps some days for explosiveness and some days for cardio.
(35:08):
No, you can't. You can, but it's not correct. Box jumps are not a cardio exercise. Once again, let's look at what the limiting factor is. When you're doing box jumps for cardio, it's your heart. But if we're trying to train explosiveness, we want our muscles to be failing, not our heart. When we're looking at cardio, we want to do things that are easy to do for our body, running, walking uphill, the StairMaster, swimming, rowing, cycling. These things are relatively easy to do with our body so that our heart can be pushed. We want our heart to be the limiting factor for cardio training. When we're doing box jumps, if our heart is the limiting factor, we're probably going to get injured. We're probably not going to be able to get the amount of height that we would get if we were doing it fresh and doing it in an explosive manner of four to six reps with three to five minutes in between.
(36:18):
That's how we train plyometrics. Plyometric training is explosive, and when you're doing explosive training, you only want to do a small amount of reps because we're using the A TP energy system, we're using an energy system that thrives off rest and your heart rate like being lower and not working with oxygen, that's the aerobic energy system which you use for cardio. So when we're doing box jumps and we're trying to do plyometric explosive training, we're using the A TP energy system. This is very different to the aerobic energy system, aerobic energy system, running, swimming, rowing, a TP energy system, heavy squats, plyometric box squads, heavy bench, heavy overhead press, lifting weights. These are two very different things, and when you combine them, you get what I like to call a shit sandwich. Moving on, more comments.
(37:19):
Someone asked me on my Instagram, easiest way to get muscle definition in legs without adding more bulk. So it is worded funny because muscle definition in your legs without adding more bulk, it makes sense, but ultimately what they're asking is, how do I just look leaner without gaining size? And the answer to that is just getting into a calorie deficit. That's how you're going to get definition in your legs by dropping your body fat. That's the key to getting more definition anywhere. Like we touched on earlier in this podcast, when we're dropping body fat, it comes down overall. It doesn't come down in specific areas. It comes down overall. So you want to make sure that you're any calorie deficit and still training heavy. But the thing about dropping weight and getting into a calorie deficit and getting leaner is there has to be muscle underneath.
(38:15):
So this may not be as easy as just getting into a calorie deficit. It depends how much muscle you have in your legs. If you're an advanced trainer and you have big legs with muscle on them, if you get leaner, yeah, that muscle's going to start popping because you have less body fat. But if you are relatively new to training and you don't have much muscularity in your legs, you haven't done squats for years and leg presses, leg extensions, lunges, deadlifts, all this good stuff, then if you just lose weight and get leaner, you may not have the muscle underneath. So this may be a two-step process of going into a muscle building phase and actually developing muscle on your legs and then chipping away at your body fat and revealing that muscle that you've built. So this really depends where you start, but if you want to have muscle definition, you need to have muscle.
(39:15):
And this isn't trying to say that if you're listening to this, you don't have muscle mass because I don't know who asked this question, but you need to have muscle mass, and this is kind of the dilemma that people have when they are skinny fat. They have fat, but they don't really have muscle. So my advice for them is to look at your training. If you are getting leaner but you're not really seeing your muscles, it's because you don't really have muscle mass. So number one, they could be an error in how you're implementing the calorie deficit to maintain your muscle mass. But number two, your muscle building phases may not be successful because of the way your training is programmed, and maybe you're just gaining body fat because you're in a surplus to build muscle, but you're training is an efficient, so you're not actually building muscle in that calorie surplus.
(40:07):
So the first thing that I'll say is if you do want to build muscle and have that muscle definition, once you're lean, you need to have that muscle mass because a lot of people just get lean in. They end up kind of just looking skinny, and there's nothing wrong with that if you're going for that. But if you do want to look shredded, which is muscle mass without body fat, then you need to have that muscle mass in the first place. And one thing that I'll tack on to the end of that is don't do both at the same time because a lot of people go, oh, well, if I want to lose body fat, then I just go into a calorie deficit, but if I want to build muscle, I just need to lift weights. So then they just go, oh, I'll just lift weights and get into a calorie deficit. I'll build muscle and lose fat. That's not how it works. I've talked about that before, but you want to do one at a time. The quote that I like to use for that is, A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
(41:05):
Okay, how long should I bulk for? I've struggled with this timeline for years. The quick answer of this is longer than you think. Bulking building muscle takes a long time. The more you train, the longer it takes. Beginners build muscle very quickly. They can even build muscle in a calorie deficit because they're so desensitised to the stimulus of hypertrophy, of training, of lifting weights. But the more advanced you get, the more challenging it becomes to build muscle because your body's kind of like, yeah, I've seen this before. Oh, you're doing bench press. I know what that looks like. Are you doing squats? I've seen that when you're advanced, it's really like, Hey man, I've seen everything that you've thrown at me. You're going to have to give me some optimal environment to grow. I'm going to need some good sleep. I'm going to need a high protein diet. I'm going to need a calorie surplus, maybe even some supplementation. I'm going to need all that stuff to build to muscle. So for most people, they need to bulk for longer because it takes a long time. You can't bulk for the same amount of time that you're cutting. That's just not an efficient way to do it. You have to spend a long time in the off season building
(42:27):
Muscle in a calorie surplus. Yes, that does mean your body fat is probably going to go up, but you need to build muscle underneath the fat so that when you do go into a calorie deficit to reveal the muscle that you have, there is muscle there. The timeline, I like to bulk myself and recommendations for clients for at least three months. That's the minimum. That's the minimum. I sell eight week challenges, also eight week programmes, and a lot of people do very well when they're pursuing fat loss for that amount of time, but when people come and they say, I'm trying to build, I'm like, we have to at least double this. We have to do at least 16 weeks, which is four months, and that, all right, 3, 2, 1, the fire alarm just went off. They seem to be testing fire alarms in here, which is great timing anyway, when people are trying to build and they only do it for eight weeks and then after that eight weeks they go back into cutting, it's not going to be enough. You're not going to convince your muscles to build in eight weeks. You need to create a calorie surplus for a long time. You need to persuade yourself, persuade your body to build use of muscle because it doesn't really want to do it.
(44:06):
If you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, if you're carrying around more muscle mass, you're going to need more food. It's going to be heavier to carry yourself around. That's not optimal. Back in the day when we were hunter gatherers running around naked trying to eat antelope, if you're this big muscular dude, you're going to need a lot of food
(44:29):
To sustain that, and food was of the scarcity back in the day, so it was never really optimal. So it's not ideal for us or for our body to grow extensive amounts of muscle, which is why it's very hard to do a little bit of muscle that makes sense, like a practical amounts of muscle so that you can hunt better, so that you can have more bone density and not get crushed by predators and not just trip over and just break. Yeah, your body will accept that for sure, but building muscle, lifting weight and really pushing it for years and years and years and years, your body's going to give you a bit of pushback, so you're going to have to get a more optimal environment to build muscle and it's going to have to be for a more sustained amount of time. This is why professional bodybuilders, like when they compete, they'll spend 16, 20 weeks cutting, but the rest of the year they're in a calorie surplus bulking. They're putting on muscle. So for most of the year, they're building, and we have to look at professional bodybuilders because that's what they're professional in building muscle, whether they're natural or not, that doesn't really matter.
(45:45):
Their sport is building muscle mass and then dropping body fat, and the way that they do it is they spend a lot or every single day that they can building, and then when they need to cut and get lean, they do that. But when they're not doing that, they follow the get in, get out principle of stuff. This man, I'm building muscle because I need to start building because when I cut, I need to show off this new bigger amounts of muscle mass. So bulking minimum three months, I like six months and only cut when you need to and you may only cut for 16 weeks, 12 weeks, eight weeks, and then just get back on the bulk. It's the most efficient way to do it. You can spend time at maintenance if you are on holiday or if you are just want to chill out from smashing so much food and feeling full and training hard and all that kind of stuff.
(46:47):
But you need to give yourself time to build muscle mass. You need to give yourself time, get in, get out of the calorie deficit, and then just spend that time in a surplus building. Keep in mind that surplus does not need to be huge. It doesn't need to be this massive 1000 calorie surplus where you're just gaining a tonne of body fat. You don't need to do that. You need to just have a slight surplus where you build as much muscle as possible, but gain as little fat because the more fat that you gain in the calorie surplus is the more fat that you have to lose in the calorie deficit. All right, last question, and this is relevant to everything that we've been talking about, when to get in and get out of the calorie deficit. This is in regards with your post. Thanks. So I've talked about this a lot, so this is going to wrap up the podcast very well.
(47:42):
You get in the calorie deficit when you want to get leaner and only when you want to get leaner, you get out of the calorie deficit when you no longer need to be leaner because a calorie deficit can affect people in many different ways, and it depends how aggressive you have been with the deficit, but it can have some pretty severe effects if you don't do it right or if you don't look after yourself or if you stay in it too long, it can decrease your libido or your sex drive. It can decrease your strength. It can decrease your muscle mass. It can decrease your sleep, it can decrease your feelings, it can decrease your positivity.
(48:18):
Sounds shit, right? So why are we all doing it? Why are we all in this calorie deficit? Because we want to look leaner, we want to look better, and that's completely fine, but we need to look after ourselves once we hit this weight and hit our goal, which ties back into what I was saying earlier, we need to set fat loss goals or else we just stay in a deficit for too long. Once we set those goals, once we hit them, we need to get out because when we get out at least to maintenance, we start to get our libido back. We start to get in a more optimal place to build muscle more optimal place to get stronger, more optimal place to be more energised and focused and have better workouts, to have better cognitive function. There's a plethora of benefits of not being in a calorie deficit. The only benefit to a calorie deficit is dropping body fat, but everything else, muscle building related lifestyle, quality of life related is better at maintenance or in a calorie surplus. So keep that in mind. Make sure you set goals with fat loss because we don't want to be stuck there. And when you get into a calorie deficit and you hit this goal that you're wanting to hit,
(49:30):
Go straight to maintenance. The calories that you're on are not the calories that you stay on. Those are your calorie deficit calories. So if you are losing weight on 2000 calories and you hit your goal, you don't go, oh, sweet, I'll just stay on 2000. You need to go back up to 2200 or 2300. That's where your maintenance is going to be. You don't stay on those lower calories or else you're going to keep losing weight, and then eventually you're going to have so much. This is called, what's it called? Why is it slip? In my mind? Adaptation, man, I should know this off the top of my head. I say this almost every day, I thermogenic adaptation, where your body, that's not the right word anyway,
(50:20):
When you're on low calories, your body gets used to it, so it starts burning less calories because if your body keeps burning a tonne calories on these low amounts of calories, it'll just keep losing weight and then it'll think it's dying from starvation, going back to those old school ancestral days where we're hunting antelope. So when we hit the goal, we need to jump up to maintenance, to revitalise, rejuvenate our metabolism, because then our body is not going to think we're dying and our metabolism's going to be refreshed. We're going to have more energy, we're going to start walking more. We're going to naturally be able to lift more weights and stuff. We're our body is starving. It makes sense, right? Our body's not just going to continue burning all this energy because it's in a deficit of energy. It doesn't have energy to burn.
(51:12):
That's why everything just gets really tight. Even people start blinking slower when they're on competition prep for bodybuilding shows, they're so exhausted. Their body's trying to save energy even with their blinking. We don't want to be in that position once we hit it, especially if we're not competitively bodybuilding. We don't need to do that to ourselves if we're just trying to get leaner, just get leaner. Don't punish yourself like that. Once you hit this weight that you want to hit, get out and live your life. Alright, guys, that's it. That's all the comments that I wanted to go through today. This is a good podcast full of knowledge that'll just help you continue to get better with your body transformation. If you do have questions, as you can see, I read my comments in all socials, so drop them everywhere. Like share, subscribe, comment everything on social media. But if you just want to send an email as well, team@teambrohb.com, I'll also accept that and just put the bit with Brock podcast in the subject line and I'll see it. Alright, I'll see you in the next podcast. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 47 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. Today we are going to be unpacking muscle building myths. They fly around the industry. It's one of the most common goals in fitness to look more jacked, to build muscle. And a lot of people play on that. A lot of people have just, and I'm mean playing on it by marketing and say, oh, you should do this, you should do that. Oh, how do I do that? Oh, you have to buy my product. Well, today I'm going to be pulling the veil off and revealing the BSS behind muscle building myths so that you can just get on with it and start building muscles. So without further chat, without the intro stuff, let's get into it.
(00:49):
The most important thing that we have to address first is the famous dirty bulk. If you don't know what a dirty bulk is, I'm glad for you because it scarred a lot of people's, I guess early days into lifting, especially mine, I was on the dirty bulk very aggressively when I was younger, when I first got into training, I was still at high school and I was young. I am still young, but I was a teenager. I was always eating very highly active with spot with zero nutritional knowledge. And I had this idea in my mind. Many people do when they first start eat big to get big. So me and my friend Rob that got me into training, he had a bench press in his garage at home. So we'd do bench press and then we started watching 301 of the greatest movies of all time, which really pushed me through my lifting.
(01:51):
We used to watch it and then research Google or Google Research the Spartan workout because they were so jacked, Leonis, his physique was like, we were like goals. So we looked at it and then online their workouts were like jumping lunges, pushups. I remember getting introduced to Hindu pushups, which we do in Jiujitsu, which are called Judo pushups, and many other funky exercises that I bet you they did not do to get ready for this role. In 300, they probably would've lifted weights, maybe some of them would've jumped on a few saucy saucy supplements you could say, and they just looked like what we wanted to look like. So we did that and we just used to eat. We used to get on our bikes, bike down to McDonald's and get something called a hunger buster from New Zealand. If you haven't had a hunger bus that you haven't lived, it's a Big Mac or a McChicken, you can swap it out.
(02:53):
But the Big Mac was always better and a cheeseburger, chocolate sundae, chips and a drink. So two burgers, Sunday chips and a drink. And it was our go-to, we would do that every weekend. We didn't watch our macros, watch our calories, we just ate big to get big, whatever. So what ended up happening for me especially, it was like I just kind of, yeah, I got bigger, but I just kind of got fatter until I remember looking at the YouTube video when I was a singer. You can still look it up on YouTube if you want to comment below, if you do go find this on YouTube, it's quite funny. I sang titanium when I was back in a boy band called Morehouse and it looks like I have no neck, and I trained heavy traps because I didn't really know what I was doing.
(03:43):
I just copied this guy at the gym who was doing heavy barbell shrugs and I used to do it, it used to kill my lower back, but I just did it. He did it and I had big traps, but I just had a lot of fat as well. And that was my dirty bulk. I would eat eight wee picks in the morning, sugar all over it, banana and sugar, and then I'd have a pretty good lunch at high school sandwiches can of creamed rice, fruit, a can of tuna, maybe something like that. And then after school, I'd have these lasagna toppers, I'm not sure if I haven't seen them in so long, but it was like a lasagna, but it had, what do you call it, around the outside? Like crumbed? Yeah, it was like crumbed lasagna. So I used to have two of those with four pieces of bread, so two sandwiches and just garlic butter on it and tomato sauce.
(04:36):
I'd have that. Then I'd have dinner and then I'd have dessert where my brother and I would have ice cream and put corn flakes and rice pops or rice bubbles, sorry, or cocoa pops in and just stir it around until it was this kind of like something you get from a frozen yoghourt store. So my diet was atrocious, right? And I was just lifting heavy and eating big, and that's what the dirty bulk is all about. It's about not caring about your macros or your calories. It's just about eat big to get big. You always eating high calorie foods, you want source of that of course. Is that a rhetorical question? You want bread with that? Hell yeah. So you just keep throwing things on and just throwing things on and you just create this huge calorie surplus and you just end up getting really fat and the thinking behind the dirty bulk was like, well, more calories equals more muscle, right?
(05:32):
More food. Yeah, just get real big. And a lot of the pro bodybuilders were doing that too. They would take photos and this was early in the fitness industry, they would take photos, they'd be at In and Out Burger, they'd be super jacked, they'd have a big gym pump, take their shirt off, big Flex. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see me here. I'm flexing. Look at the camera and then down the bottom where their are just below their abs would be like 10 burgers and fries and drinks and they'll be like Cheap meal bro. And then everyone was like, whoa, you eat that and get big, that means I have to do that. Eat big to get big, bro. Yeah, man. And then it just kind of created this whole thing and then the dirty bulk was born and you know what? You can eat like that.
(06:20):
If most people that were posting that you are on exogenous testosterone, which is steroids or performance enhancing drugs, that really does help. And the thing is, sometimes those influencers wouldn't even eat those meals. It was just for the thumbnail or it was just for the gramme and then they'd be like, alright, you finished with the photo. Okay, let me give the burgers to the rest of my friends. The dirty bulk is just, you just go nuts. You just eat whatever you want whenever you want and you keep training hard. And for some people it will work.
(06:58):
The some people is hard gainers because hard gainers are people that struggle to gain weight. I fall into this category. I think I fell into this category when I was younger. It's just when you just don't eat that much. So you have to have those high calorie, highly tasty foods to get calories in to make sure that you're getting in a surplus. But for most people, if they eat a dirty bulk diet, they're just going to gain a lot of fat. The truth is about muscle building. It's a slow process and just because you are gaining weight does not mean you are gaining muscle. It's very different. That's why it's good to get your body fat tested because you could look on the scale and be like, man, this week I gained a kilo. I'm getting huge. But if you gained a kilo in a week, that does not mean that that kilo is muscle mass. Unless you get a DEXA scan or you get your callipers done by a well-educated personal trainer who can do your body fat callipers and you're the same body fat percentage and you've gained a kilo, then it's muscle mass. So 100%, but most likely if you're gaining a kilo a week, you're getting fat.
(08:19):
If you're advanced, if you're even intermediate, muscle gain is slow. It's very slow. It's painful. It's the worst part of lifting as a natural athlete or a natural lifter, bodybuilder, whatever you want to call yourself. It's very slow and it's challenging because sometimes you're like, man, why am I even doing this? I'm grinding five days a week, six days a week, I'm weighing my meals, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and it's just such a slow grind. That's just the nature of it, man. That's why it's important to fall in love with it because like fall in love with progressive overload, with getting stronger, sit yourself performance-based goals because if you're just worried about your aesthetics, it can get quite disappointing the more you do it. I've been training for 15 years now.
(09:08):
Do you think I'm gaining a kilo of muscle a week? I don't even know if I'm gaining a kilo of muscle a year. It's very hard the more you get advanced and if you don't take performance and hunting drugs, it's even harder because you have to do it. You have to get in a calorie surplus and just slowly chip away at building muscle. But the point I was getting at here is just because you're gaining weight does not mean you're gaining muscle. The calorie surplus that you need is so small compared to what you think It's you don't have to eat an extra meal per day. You don't have to eat an extra 1000 calories per day. All you have to do is just eat above your maintenance by the slightest margin. And the margin that I like to do that by is by just 5% of your calories, 5% of your calories. Let me do the math right now. So my current calorie maintenance is around 3,500. So I'm currently eating 3,500 calories at maintenance because I just finished the fat loss phase and I'm just chilling out at maintenance. I'm eating 400 more calories, which is awesome. And if I go 3,500, which is my maintenance, and just give myself the smallest calorie surplus,
(10:27):
It's 3,675. It's an extra 175 calories. It's nothing. It's absolutely nothing. It's so small, it's not even noticeable. That's like a piece of bread. So I'm not eating an extra McDonald's meal, I'm not having a hunger buster. I might just have an extra piece of bread at dinner and that feels like it's not good enough. It feels like what the hell's a piece of bread going to do? But you know what it does? It just gives you that surplus of energy and that could be enough for you to build as much muscle as you can without gaining excess fat. But if I went ahead and go 3,500, now I'm bulking. I need to go 4,500 and then just throw an extra thousand calories on. If I only need 175 calories, I've got what, 825 calories of potential calories just to go straight to fat gain every day.
(11:31):
That's a recipe for gaining way too much fat for the amount of muscle that I'm building. Sure, you'll optimise your muscle building just as much, but you're going to gain fat. And when you gain too much fat when you're bulking, it's not good for this very reason, then you have to lose that fat later on. Sure, it's fun eating whatever want doing a dirty bulk, optimising your calorie surplus, but gaining that extra fat is just slowing you down later on. That just means that your diet when you decide to lose fat again, is just going to be so much harder. Your prep is going to be so much longer because you've gained this extra X amount of kilos instead of just being disciplined with a 5% calorie surplus or even a 10% calorie surplus. If I was to go to a 10% calorie surplus, I'll be at 3,850, which still an extra 350 calories. That's not much When you think about it like I don't know, it might be an extra cheeseburger if we're going to talk about McDonald's, it's just 350 calories. That's five eggs.
(12:45):
If you just have your normal diet at maintenance and just add five eggs now you may just have the calorie surplus that you need to optimally build as much muscle as possible and gain as minimal fat as possible, which is the goal of a bulk. People call it a lean bulk, a clean bulk. I just call it an intelligent bulk because the more fat you gain now, the more you have to lose later on and it's just no good. And often that added fat that people gain when they don't really need to discourages them and kind of disappoints them when they look in the mirror because people like to maintain a lean physique. I'm not trying to say that you have to be lean all the time. I'm just speaking from experience. I coach a lot of people. I've trained my whole life pretty much since I was 14, 15 years.
(13:39):
That's someone's whole life somewhere out there in the world. I've trained for a long time. I know even myself, I'm a personal trainer, I'm a fitness dude online and I understand that looks aren't everything, but still I like to maintain a certain look just because that's how I like to look. Even though I know it doesn't mean anything about self-worth, it doesn't make me a better person. It doesn't make me better than you or your mom or your dad or your brother. It doesn't make me better. It's just the body fat percentage. I know that, but I like looking lean, looking muscular. It's just what it is. And if you ask most people it, they're being honest, they would probably say the same thing. Yes, it's healthier than being overweight, but it's just like an image that we aspire to and I train so much.
(14:35):
I want to get the most out of it, and for me, that's gaining the least amount of fat possible and building the most amount of muscle possible when I'm in a build. And to do that, you only need a pretty small surplus. Five to 10% is a great place to start. If you're a hard gainer, like I said earlier, a person that just struggles to gain weight and just can't seem to just put on any pounds, maybe you can start at 20%. That isn't an aggressive approach. So for me, if we come back to my example, just because it's personal and it's easy to understand, if we give myself a 20% calorie deficit, that brings me up to 4,200. That is quite a lot. That's quite a lot of food per day. So for me to do that, I think if I did that personally, I would gain weight at a pretty rapid rate and that would be too high for me.
(15:34):
So maybe I'm not a hard gainer, maybe 20% is too high. And once again, guys, these rules are just suggestions. Your perfect surplus might be 9.76% or 4.38%. It comes down to trial and error. I can give you my calorie calculator, which is in the top description of this. Wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can use my calorie calculator. But let me give you this piece of advice. It's just a guess, and that's all formulas are. They're just good guesses because the amount you walk, the amount you sleep, the length of your workouts, the type of workouts that you're doing, there's so many things that are different, but it's a very good guess for the information that you put into the formulas. So if 5% calorie surplus isn't doing it, if your weight stays the same and it was meant to be a 5% calorie surplus, don't complain.
(16:37):
Oh, Brock, your calorie calculator is rubbish. Maybe you put the wrong physical activity level in, or maybe you just need a higher calorie surplus. So instead of just saying, oh, woe is me, just find the solution and give yourself more calories. Bump your calories up by a hundred, 150, maybe 200 calories, stick to that for a week or two and see how you go. That is how you build muscle optimally. It's trial and error. Nothing is black and white. Nothing is exact except for principles like you need a calorie surplus, you need a deficit, you need maintenance for this and that. Those are pretty set in stone, but there are numbers and things like that. Things fluctuate, things change. So just make sure you keep that in mind. So there we go, the dirty bulk debunked. Thank you very much. Secondly, low reps and heavyweight is a must for muscle building. That's what we've been told. You got to lift heavy, bro. You got to get under the bar and trains of failure.
(17:42):
It's out there. It's out there, but it's not true. Look, I'm a big fan of lifting heavy weights in low rep ranges. That's my favourite way to train. I love it. I dig it. That's how I personally get strong. That's how many of my clients have gotten strong, and it's how most people get strong and build muscle. It's not the worst advice, but it is a myth because you can build muscle with slightly lighter weights and more reps as long as you take your training close to failure or to complete failure. The rep range, the weight that you lift doesn't really matter as long as you get within 3, 2, 1 or zero reps in reserve. If you don't understand what reps in reserve is, it's how many reps you have left in the gas tank. If you finish a set of bench press and you go, I could have got three more and then, but if I did three more, I'd definitely be done.
(18:48):
The bar would be stuck. That's three reps in reserve that is close enough to failure to build muscle. So it was two reps in reserve, so was one and so is zero. So as long as you get there, your rep range and the weight that you lift doesn't really matter. The weight that you lift is obviously going to be relative to the reps that you do. You can't lift super, super heavy weights for your strength levels for 20 reps because then it's not a super, super, super heavy weight. It may be super heavy for that rep range, but it's not a super, super, super heavy weight. So just keep that in mind with your training. Just because you're on the bulk doesn't mean that you have to change your training from exactly what it is to, I have to go heavy, I have to do two reps, three reps, four reps, or else I'm not going to build muscle. That's not the case.
(19:48):
It is smart when you are in a calorie surplus to pursue strength increases because you have the surplus of energy or surplus of calories behind you to help you recover, to help you perform, to help you get stuff done in the gym. So it is a good idea to lift heavy weights for low reps, but once you've finished that for the first one, two, maybe three exercises of your workout, then you can go into more isolated movements where it makes sense to just increase the reps a little bit and decrease the weight a little bit. You don't have to do heavy weights all the time. For example, if you're going to do the dumbbell lateral raise, doing three reps on a dumbbell lateral race doesn't feel the best. It kind of beats up your joints a bit, shoulders feel a bit funny, elbows feel a bit funny that didn't feel that good, and you kind of lift the up and then just drop down really fast as soon as they come up.
(20:50):
That's not the best controlled eccentric that I've seen. But if you're lateral raising in between anywhere eight to 20 reps, that seems to be a bit of a better rep range for that exercise and you might get more gains for it. You might bulk your shoulders more successfully with that rep range for that exercise. So context matters. However, opening the workout with some heavy overhead presses or heavy bench press, heavy squats, heavy deadlifts for 2, 3, 4, maybe even five reps, that's a great idea. You're going to get stronger. You're coming in fresh, so you're using your peak amounts of energy to lift the heaviest amounts of weight for the biggest compound exercises. And then as you fatigue and get into more isolated movements where you're breaking specific muscles down, you can decrease the weights and lift lighter loads for lateral raises. Y raises cable y raises.
(21:50):
Maybe you're doing tricep push downs, doing tricep push downs for three reps, four reps. You could probably get more out of it from doing somewhere between eight to 15 to 20 reps. These exercises, there are certain exercises, and this comes with experience that I have from being a coach for so long and training for so long, and you may develop this as you continue to pursue your body transformation, but certain exercises just lend themselves to towards certain rep ranges just from a practical perspective. So you don't have to lift low reps and heavyweight to build muscle. You can build muscle from anywhere between three reps and 30 reps. That's a big range. And the context, which helps you decide what rep range to do is do you want to get stronger? Do you want to work on strength endurance? Do you want to just focus on hypertrophy?
(22:41):
What exercise are you doing? How fresh are you feeling? Do your joints feel good when you do this exercise And that exercise, there's a lot of context and nuance in between deciding what rep range to do, which is why I always recommend if you don't know too much about programming, obviously you can go and learn and do courses like I have and seminars and study it, or you can hire a coach to do so obviously. How did that fly get in there? Obviously if you want me as your coach to do that, I can and you can check out the link in the description, which takes you to my plans page. Moving on to high protein diets to build muscle. A lot of people when they start bulking think I need to get even more protein to build even more muscle, but it's just not the case.
(23:29):
It's not the case. Protein is like, it's like your best friend. It's always there. It's always consistent, just always there. Through good times and bad times, you can always lean on protein. It's always going to be there. You want to keep it the same every time. You want to keep it high, always, whether you are cutting or whether you are building, it just stays the same. And if you increase it even more, you might just be trying to cover your ass and just make sure that you have enough protein. But when you have the calories that you need to hit for your calorie surplus and you have the protein that you need to hit in the fats and your carbs, if you bump up your protein a bit higher, something else has to come down your fats or your carbohydrates, and let's say you take fat off, that might just be fine.
(24:38):
Let's say you take carbohydrates off though, that might because you're in a calorie surplus, you have a surplus of energy, it might not affect you too much because you're just bumping up your protein by 50 grammes. It's a couple hundred calories, but if you have that extra protein because you're just trying to like, ah, I think I need more protein for this bulk and your carbohydrates lower, maybe your performance will drop. Maybe you'll have less energy, less focus, less productivity. Your recovery might be impaired, maybe not. Maybe it'll just be fine. It's not a big deal if you have more protein. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it is a myth to build more muscle. If you just keep having more and more and more protein, that doesn't mean you're just going to build more and more and more and more muscle.
(25:31):
That's not how it works. If you've maxed out your protein, you just kind of like having extra protein instead of something else and having it instead of something else doesn't really matter too much from a perspective of how your body operates, although you'll just have less carbs or less fat and more protein, but it might just be a preference thing. Now you've got to have more protein, which means you might have to have an extra scoop of protein. You might need to have an extra chicken breast, some more beef mints, and maybe you don't want to have that. Maybe you just want to have potentially more bread or more fruit, or you want to have an extra scoop of ice cream, which is carbs and fats, but you can't because your protein's so high. Just keep your protein where it needs to be a high protein diet, and that can be anywhere from 1.5 grammes of protein per kg of body weight or all the way up to the higher end of 2.5 grammes per kilo of body weight.
(26:36):
But even then, that's pretty high. That is where I eat. I like to kind of make sure I'm getting enough protein. I like to max it out, but also I'm doing quite a lot of training. I'm lifting weights five times per week, but I'm also doing juujitsu three times a week, three 90 minute sessions, which are pretty gruelling. So I want to just make sure because I'm moving my body so much that I'm sparing enough muscle mass, and if you are leaner, it is a good idea to be on the higher end of protein because body fat is muscle sparing, so people that are obese can be on the lower end of protein because they have so much body fat that's going to protect their muscle mass. If your body's in a deficit and you're obese, your body's going to use that body fat as energy, not muscle. So there's not, because that's the most intelligent thing to do. There's not really much point of just skyrocketing your protein because it's just a waste of calories that you could put towards having more fat or more carbohydrates, which are tastier in a real world point perspective, but also the extra carbohydrates could help fuel you better in your workouts and help you operate better cognitively throughout the day or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
When I first thought of doing a podcast in 2019, I wrote down everything that I wanted to achieve with the show, and one thing I never wrote down was to spam you with ads of products that I never really used myself. However, I did write down that I wanted to grow it as big as possible and have as many interesting people on the show as I could to help make that happen. All I ask is that you leave a review on the podcast platform that you're listening to this episode on and share it with someone that you know it will benefit. If you want to support myself even further and more importantly, your body transformation and that interested in having me as your coach to help you achieve the results that you just can't seem to achieve on your own. You can visit team brock ash b.com to see what programme fits you best back to the
Brock Ashby (28:42):
Show. Another myth that's been debunked quite a lot lately is having your protein shake or just your source of protein straight away after training. It's almost like you finish your last set of triceps and it's absolutely burning. As soon as you finish before breathing, you have to sprint to the locker room, grab your shaker, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, and skull your protein just to make sure you've made the most of the anabolic post-workout window. And the truth is, I'm not going to spend too much time on this, but you don't need to do that. It doesn't need to be straight away. It doesn't even need to be within half an hour. It is a good idea because after training, you are more sensitive to protein. Your body is ready to transport the nutrients that it consumes, post-workout to the area that needs it.
(29:42):
But in the real world, sometimes we just can't get to a source of protein fast enough. And the most important thing that we need to look at with protein specifically is our daily protein target. That's the most important. So we need to acknowledge that that's most important. How much protein we consume in a day? Did we hit two grammes per kilo of body weight? Yes, big tick. Did we have a post-workout shake within 10 seconds of finishing? No, it's not a big deal. It's not the biggest deal. Look, it is a good idea and potentially more optimal way to go about it, to have a source of protein within 30 minutes, one hour, two hours, I've waited four hours before. You don't die. Your muscle doesn't disappear, your biceps don't fall out of your arms.
(30:44):
But it's a good habit to get into, especially, and if you are someone that does two training sessions a day, let's say you're doing jiujitsu, you'd want to get that in earlier and with some carbohydrates, if you're going to train again for a second workout, or let's just say you're doing cardio later on in the day, you'll want to replenish your glycogen stores again and get some little bit of carbohydrates in there, but especially some protein, especially some protein. So think about that. If you are doing two sessions a day, some people do weights and then they do cardio or some people do cardio and then they do weights after a workout, get some protein in before your next workout. Some carbohydrates as well would be even more optimal to replenish your glycation SOS that you just depleted in a workout so that you can use your glycogen stores again, which we use when we're working out and exercising in that second workout.
(31:40):
But yeah, it just kind of makes sense to get your protein in after your workout. It's just a good habit to get into as well. If you finish your training session and then you have to drive home and then cook dinner and all that kind of stuff, and it's been an hour, it's not the biggest deal, you're going to be fine. Once again, the biggest thing you need to focus on is the daily protein target and making sure you're hitting that number by the end of the day. There is a caveat there because there is some optimal ways of getting constant feeding of protein throughout the day. So a good rule of thumb, if you have a protein target of two grammes per kilo of body weight, so I'm just going to go by me because that's an easy example. 180 grammes of protein is my, it's like a gramme of protein per pound of body weight or two kilos, 2.2 grammes of protein per kilo of body weight, 180.
(32:43):
It's around 180, 200, let's just say 200, right? 200 grammes of protein that I need to hit by the end of the day to hit my protein target, which is the most important thing. The second most important thing underneath that, if we're getting in the details of muscle building, is the feedings meal frequency in between feedings makes you kind of sound like a rat or a pet, like, oh, I'm having a feeding. That's pretty weird. But that's kind of how they talk about it in research, like protein feedings. So that's kind of how I was thinking about it, but let's just say meals, meal frequency, how often we should have that. The research is like four meals is the best place. Having five, six people used to think eight meals a day would stoke the metabolism. The research just kind of debunk that and said, that's not really true.
(33:38):
As long as you hit your daily calories and daily protein, that's really all that matters. That's the most important thing. But then they were like, oh, but if you want to be optimal, you could have somewhere between 0.4 grammes of protein per kilo of body weight or 0.55 grammes of protein, grammes of protein per kilo of body weight. Hope you're still following me per meal. And then once you find that, you're like, well, how many meals would that be for me? And then you have those amounts of meals or you could just go, alright, the optimal amounts of meals that I should have is four. It's round four. So you could have three, you could have 5, 3, 4, 5. It's still going to be fine as long as you hit calories and protein and everything else. So let's say we need to hit 200 grammes of protein and in four meals I need to have 50 grammes per day.
(34:43):
Sorry, 50 grammes per meal. If I'm having four meals, that is going to be more optimal than having two meals of a hundred grammes because I have those constant feedings throughout the day. So that's something to think about with hitting your protein. If you can't hit it straight away, it's not the biggest deal. Have you hit your protein target and then have you hit constant protein meals throughout the day? I could have four meals of 50 grammes, or I could have five meals of 40 grammes. It really just depends. Personally, what I like to do on a day-to-day basis, my target is 225 grammes of protein at the moment, and I probably have around four meals per day. I wouldn't say they're the most optimal at the moment. I just go with what is happening.
(35:38):
If I go through MyFitnessPal right now, just to give you an idea of how it doesn't really matter really. It does and it doesn't. So yesterday my first meal was 88 grammes of protein. That was breakfast, and then my second meal was 62. So keep in mind, I'm going for 225. My third meal was 67, my fourth meal was 19. And you know why? Because my protein was actually too high, so I actually had to pull it back and I had no protein sauce with my dinner last night because I was like, if I have the beef mints that I was meant to have for dinner, that would make my protein 250, maybe even closer to 300, which is too much. Once again, it's a waste for me. Even though I love the taste, I'm like, I'd rather have some carbohydrates to fuel me because today I had juujitsu and then I had gym, so I wanted full glycogen stores so I could smash my training.
(37:00):
I didn't want to feel depleted with that extra protein instead of carbohydrates. So instead of having beef mints and rice, I had just rice. I needed carbohydrates, so I had rice in wraps with avocado. It was pretty sad dinner last night, but you got to do what you got to do for the gain. So yesterday for me, probably not the most optimal for me to hit 225 in four meals, which I had, I would've had to have had around 56 grammes of protein per meal, and I had heaps for breakfast, 88 grammes. So I went too high and then I had 62 and then 67, which is pretty good. It's pretty close to 56. And then I had 19. I ended the day with a pretty abysmal amount of protein, but so you can see, obviously I know what's optimal, but in the real world it's really hard unless you're a professional bodybuilder, which I respect.
(38:06):
It's really hard to have a perfect amount of protein every single day unless you're meal prepping, weighing everything out and just like, I have to eat this. I have to eat this, and I'm eating with my wife, she's making dinner. Sometimes I make dinner. I'm a real average cook, but we are just trying to make it work and just like, yeah, I'm not a professional bodybuilder, so I'm not going to go to that perfect amount of 56 grammes per day just because I know that it doesn't matter too much for me personally because I'm not stepping on stage to show how much muscle I have. Obviously, I'm curious, and I'm trying to build as much muscle as I can. I'm sure you are, but to me, having 56 grammes of protein four times per day just isn't one of those things that I really care about too much.
(39:02):
As long as I hit my 225, which I did yesterday, I actually hit 12 grammes over by accident or just by lack of preparation. As long as I do that, I'm happy because I've had enough protein and I've had enough calories. I had seven calories less than I needed to yesterday, but that's pretty accurate. So I'm happy. For me, that's a big tick for building muscle. That was a big man. Got sidetracked on that one. I was talking about protein in the anabolic post-workout window. Alright, the last myth that I want to talk about for muscle building is training to failure all the time. Training just as hard as possible, man, go to bulk, got to go to failure every time, man, or right, you're not going to build muscle. That's what they say, I'm just going to take a quick drink.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Oh
Brock Ashby (39:55):
Yeah,
(40:00):
That's what people say. That's what I heard a lot when I was at high school just learning the ropes of lifting. I didn't actually have a personal trainer. I just learned from my friend Rob just did what all the big rugby boys did in the gym. I was just a classic person that I make content for. I was just lost just doing what the big boys do. And to be honest, it didn't really work that much. I could have gotten a lot better results if I was more detailed, but anyway, they just trained to failure all the time. That was what you do, bro. You just trained to failure. That's the manly thing to do. Be a real man and train hard rugby and yeah, chicks. It was a lot of that environment. So I was doing a lot of that just lifting heavy, heavy this, heavy that going to failure until I was shaking.
(40:53):
I'll do tricep dips until I couldn't. I was shaking like a car, an old car, and then I'd do leg extension until my legs literally couldn't move and then I'd do calf raises until I couldn't walk and I'll do shoulder presses until I couldn't lift my arms. I was just battering myself in the gym. And don't get me wrong, training to failure has its place, but you don't need to train to failure every workout for every set, for every exercise, it just, you're going to get too burnt out if you're going to true muscular failure in every set of every exercise, in every workout, you're going to smash yourself. It's going to be very hard to recover from, especially if you're training four times or more. If you have an intelligent split, it may work, but you're going to need time to recover. So what I like to do instead of training to failure all the time is to train more intelligently and actually ramp up the intensity. But before I talk about my approach, I want to acknowledge why training to failure all the time doesn't really work. So if you train to failure and you're really sore, you can't walk for a week, your legs are just crazy sore, can't sit down, oh, it hurts.
(42:15):
Someone accidentally kicks you while you're sleeping like your girlfriend, and then it's just absolutely painful because your quads are still recovering. If that's happening, you're actually stopping yourself from getting into the gym if you're too sore. That's why as a personal trainer, you don't just want to smash your client until you see them again, because then they can't train until they see you again a week later. So you just don't want to do that. If your muscle soreness is so hard, you can't train for an entire week, you've overdone it and you are slowing down your progress because you're only training that body part once per week. The research tells us we should probably train it at least two times per week, potentially three depends on the person, maybe even four depends on your goals. So if you want to train to failure the way that I like to do it so it doesn't get in your way and you're not so sore that you can't train and then you just hate the gym and give up.
(43:19):
So sore. I remember I took it quite easy. I trained this Indian lady and she trained with me for a while, but the first session that she had with me, she complained because she said she was so sore, so sore, she couldn't walk for a week. She saw a doctor, she took certain pills, and for me, I just thought it was absolutely crazy because we did body weight squats, body weight lunges, but she was so sore that she couldn't train for. It was like two weeks and I probably should have read the situation a bit better, but we did literally three sets of eight of body weight squats, and then we may have done split squats or maybe some leg extension, I can't even remember, but it was her quads. She said they were sore to touch. So for me, I acknowledged that error, but she was so deconditioned that even doing body weight squats, just squatting down and standing up with no weight and then doing leg press, which was probably like 14 kilos or 21 kilos, so light that you could easily bicep, curl it 50 times, it made her so sore.
(44:39):
That is not what we want because that stops you from training. It stops you from progressing. It stops you from, especially as a beginner, getting used to training and developing the skill of training because training is a skill. It's like if you're learning new exercises, the more you can do them, the more comfortable you become with them, and then when you're more comfortable with exercises, you can get stronger on them. So if you're a beginner and then you just get so sore, you can only train once a week, and then I'm training a beginner and I'm doing a better job than I did with this Indian lady and I'm training this person, three reps away from failure, maybe five reps away from failure just to be safe with this beginner, and they're coming in and they're doing the same workout because they can, because they're a beginner, like three times a week over one month, they're going to do an exercise 12 times and you are going to do them four.
(45:40):
If you train chest once a week and you're doing the dumbbell chest press on week one, and then again week two and again week three and again week four, you're doing it four times per month. If this beginner that I'm training is doing it three times a week and this a bit further away from failure, they're going to do it 12 times in a month, so three times more than you, they're going to develop the skill of the exercise, they're going to develop better form, and then with that repetition, they're also going to get stronger in that exercise because they're exposed to that exercise and the stimulus of that exercise more. So that is why we don't want to train to failure all the time. We want to leave some reps left in the gas tank, especially in the first week of the programme, and then we can ramp it up As we continue to move forward, we can do, this is how I like to do it, two to three reps in reserve for the first week, second week of the programme, we'd ramp it up.
(46:41):
We do one to two reps in reserve. The third week we can go all the way to failure up to one rep left in the tank, and then in that last week, I want to see you training to failure quite often because it's the last week of the programme, we just really go for it. We smash ourselves. We take ourselves to muscular failure on quite a lot of exercises except for the ones that it doesn't make sense. You don't want to squat to failure because you might get squashed by the barbell. There was an unfortunate incident where someone actually passed away doing that recently. We don't want to take a squat all the way to failure. We don't want to do the deadlift all the way to failure. We might slip a disc. We don't want to take the bench press all the way to failure because we'll probably squash ourselves like a pancake.
(47:27):
The leg press, if we go all the way to failure and we're doing a lot of weight, that's going to come back and squash us if we don't get the racks back in time to stop the weights. There are certain exercises where it's actually more of a danger to yourself to go to failure than it is to not go to failure. But then there are exercises like dumbbell chest press, bicep curls, leg extension, leg curl, 45 degree back extension, cable, chest fly. You can take those all the way to failure and there's little to no consequence except for gains in the last week of the programme because when you start a new programme after the last week of this current programme, when you do the new programme, you start back at three rips and reserves, so you're almost deloading in that first week of the programme.
(48:14):
Yet you're still taking it close enough to build muscle, close enough to failure to build muscle, and you're getting used to these new exercises that are in the programme or the new tempo or the new strategy, the new method, whatever your coaches decided to do, you can use that first week to almost feel it out. That doesn't mean you're training like a wet fish. Does that make sense? A wet fish, fish are always wet, a sock in the wind, a wind sock, whatever. It doesn't mean that you train light and you just cruise and you're not even, your heart rate's not even raised. You're just like, oh yeah, three reps in reserve. Man, it's so easy. It still needs to be hard, just not so hard that you can't recover from and improve. Apply progressive overload in the workouts following up to the rest of the programme, so to conclude this podcast, I'm going to tell you how I like to approach building muscle.
(49:17):
We'll start with our nutrition, and I like to start with the smallest calorie surplus possible to build muscle and minimise the amounts of fat gained. That generally is a 5% surplus. That's where I like to start. It's very minimal. It's the minimal way to approach because you know what? We can always increase calories, but if we go too hard too early and just gain too much fat too early, then potentially we might have to bring it back and then you're like, oh, I'm just getting fat when I'm bulking, so I might just start cutting again, and then you just cut for another eight weeks because two weeks past and you just couldn't resist yourself and you just ate way too much food. A lot of people do it. A lot of people do it. They're just in this vicious cycle where you bulk for two weeks and then you cut for eight weeks and you bulk for two weeks and cut, and you're like, yeah, this is just what you do, man.
(50:11):
This is how it works. It's not, I like people to commit at least three months, four months, five months. I'd love six months even more to a bulk. You need to really be in a surplus for a long time to get stronger, to build muscle, to maximise it, and if you do want to build for that long amount of time, you have to look at your calories and say, how is this going to be doable? Because if you just eat like a pig and just eat as much as you can for six months without thinking of macros and calories and you just go for it and you just absolutely blast your calories out of the water in a month or even two months, you're going to explode. You're going to have so much fat on you. Yes, you've built muscle, but when you decide to cut, you're going to have to cut for way longer than you need than if you were to just have a sensible calorie surplus, 5%, 10% above your maintenance and you can build for six months and still gain as little fat as possible. That's a true lean bulk and clean bulk, and within that nutrition, your protein, remember, it's like your breast friend, oh man, thinking about breasts. I'm joking. It's your best friend.
(51:32):
It stays the same. It stays constant. I told you the markers to follow earlier, but protein stays the same. Fat. I didn't talk about fat, but you keep it around one gramme per kilo of body weight and then the rest is carbohydrates. Carbohydrates usually go pretty high when we're trying to build muscle. That's your nutrition supplements. I like creatine. Take it. It's good. I've talked about it before. I won't bother. Training stays the same. You don't have to go low reps in heavy weight. You can continue training the way you are. Low reps in heavy weight is good for the opening exercises that are generally compounds and heavy. You want to do them when you're fresh and feeling good. It's good idea to do your low reps heavy weight early on in the session, but that doesn't mean you can't do lighter weights as well, so don't write them off.
(52:25):
You can do lateral raises, bicep curls, tricep extensions, tricep, cross cable extensions, push downs, pushups for 20 reps, 25 reps, 30 reps if you want to. You can build muscle anywhere between three reps and 30 reps. You don't have to do low rep heavy weight just because you're bulking bro. Get out of that mindset because that sort of training does beat up your joints too when you're lifting heavy. Okay? If you have good form, it is going to target your target muscles, but know that heavy lifting can be taxing on your joints. I'm not saying it's bad for you. I'm not saying you're going to get injured, but if you just do that lifting all the time, I've done it before. I've taken my strength training sessions for too long, sorry, strength training phases for too long, like four weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks, just strength training.
(53:14):
I developed sore wrists. I developed sore elbows, sore shoulders from doing too much heavy work and not enough work where my joints and connective tissues are getting rests by doing those hypertrophy rep ranges, that's training okay with steps. You don't need to blast 10,000, 12,000, 20,000 steps per day anywhere above. I like my clients that are building to sit between eight to 10,000 because if you are blasting your steps 20,000 a day, 15,000 a day, that's just calories that you have to eat back and that might be fun for you for a while. Like, man, I get to eat so many calories and I'm doing so many steps, but it does get tiring eating a lot of food all the time, and then you may not just may just get so sick and tired of eating because your steps are so high that you get over a surplus and you're like, oh, man, I just want to go to maintenance, and then you just give up on your bulk.
(54:13):
Just try to limit them between eight to 10,000. I'm not saying that if someone asks you to go for a walk, you turn them down, you're like, nah, bro, I'm bulking still. Go for a walk. Still live your life, but just look at your weekly average and keep it between 56,000 to 70,000 because if you're doing a lot of steps, that's extra calories that you're burning that you're going to have to consume later on to make that up to make sure that you get into your calorie surplus. I hope this has helped you. This is Brock Ashby debunking the muscle building myths. I hope it's been good. Let me know if you found this helpful. Drop me a comment. Send me an email team@teambrockashby.com if you have any other topics that you want me to cover. I have reached out to many people to jump on the podcast, so hopefully we get some people on and have some interesting conversations though. I do like these solo podcasts and I hope they bring you value. Thank you very much, team. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 47 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. Today we are going to be unpacking muscle building myths. They fly around the industry. It's one of the most common goals in fitness to look more jacked, to build muscle. And a lot of people play on that. A lot of people have just, and I'm mean playing on it by marketing and say, oh, you should do this, you should do that. Oh, how do I do that? Oh, you have to buy my product. Well, today I'm going to be pulling the veil off and revealing the BSS behind muscle building myths so that you can just get on with it and start building muscles. So without further chat, without the intro stuff, let's get into it.
(00:49):
The most important thing that we have to address first is the famous dirty bulk. If you don't know what a dirty bulk is, I'm glad for you because it scarred a lot of people's, I guess early days into lifting, especially mine, I was on the dirty bulk very aggressively when I was younger, when I first got into training, I was still at high school and I was young. I am still young, but I was a teenager. I was always eating very highly active with spot with zero nutritional knowledge. And I had this idea in my mind. Many people do when they first start eat big to get big. So me and my friend Rob that got me into training, he had a bench press in his garage at home. So we'd do bench press and then we started watching 301 of the greatest movies of all time, which really pushed me through my lifting.
(01:51):
We used to watch it and then research Google or Google Research the Spartan workout because they were so jacked, Leonis, his physique was like, we were like goals. So we looked at it and then online their workouts were like jumping lunges, pushups. I remember getting introduced to Hindu pushups, which we do in Jiujitsu, which are called Judo pushups, and many other funky exercises that I bet you they did not do to get ready for this role. In 300, they probably would've lifted weights, maybe some of them would've jumped on a few saucy saucy supplements you could say, and they just looked like what we wanted to look like. So we did that and we just used to eat. We used to get on our bikes, bike down to McDonald's and get something called a hunger buster from New Zealand. If you haven't had a hunger bus that you haven't lived, it's a Big Mac or a McChicken, you can swap it out.
(02:53):
But the Big Mac was always better and a cheeseburger, chocolate sundae, chips and a drink. So two burgers, Sunday chips and a drink. And it was our go-to, we would do that every weekend. We didn't watch our macros, watch our calories, we just ate big to get big, whatever. So what ended up happening for me especially, it was like I just kind of, yeah, I got bigger, but I just kind of got fatter until I remember looking at the YouTube video when I was a singer. You can still look it up on YouTube if you want to comment below, if you do go find this on YouTube, it's quite funny. I sang titanium when I was back in a boy band called Morehouse and it looks like I have no neck, and I trained heavy traps because I didn't really know what I was doing.
(03:43):
I just copied this guy at the gym who was doing heavy barbell shrugs and I used to do it, it used to kill my lower back, but I just did it. He did it and I had big traps, but I just had a lot of fat as well. And that was my dirty bulk. I would eat eight wee picks in the morning, sugar all over it, banana and sugar, and then I'd have a pretty good lunch at high school sandwiches can of creamed rice, fruit, a can of tuna, maybe something like that. And then after school, I'd have these lasagna toppers, I'm not sure if I haven't seen them in so long, but it was like a lasagna, but it had, what do you call it, around the outside? Like crumbed? Yeah, it was like crumbed lasagna. So I used to have two of those with four pieces of bread, so two sandwiches and just garlic butter on it and tomato sauce.
(04:36):
I'd have that. Then I'd have dinner and then I'd have dessert where my brother and I would have ice cream and put corn flakes and rice pops or rice bubbles, sorry, or cocoa pops in and just stir it around until it was this kind of like something you get from a frozen yoghourt store. So my diet was atrocious, right? And I was just lifting heavy and eating big, and that's what the dirty bulk is all about. It's about not caring about your macros or your calories. It's just about eat big to get big. You always eating high calorie foods, you want source of that of course. Is that a rhetorical question? You want bread with that? Hell yeah. So you just keep throwing things on and just throwing things on and you just create this huge calorie surplus and you just end up getting really fat and the thinking behind the dirty bulk was like, well, more calories equals more muscle, right?
(05:32):
More food. Yeah, just get real big. And a lot of the pro bodybuilders were doing that too. They would take photos and this was early in the fitness industry, they would take photos, they'd be at In and Out Burger, they'd be super jacked, they'd have a big gym pump, take their shirt off, big Flex. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see me here. I'm flexing. Look at the camera and then down the bottom where their are just below their abs would be like 10 burgers and fries and drinks and they'll be like Cheap meal bro. And then everyone was like, whoa, you eat that and get big, that means I have to do that. Eat big to get big, bro. Yeah, man. And then it just kind of created this whole thing and then the dirty bulk was born and you know what? You can eat like that.
(06:20):
If most people that were posting that you are on exogenous testosterone, which is steroids or performance enhancing drugs, that really does help. And the thing is, sometimes those influencers wouldn't even eat those meals. It was just for the thumbnail or it was just for the gramme and then they'd be like, alright, you finished with the photo. Okay, let me give the burgers to the rest of my friends. The dirty bulk is just, you just go nuts. You just eat whatever you want whenever you want and you keep training hard. And for some people it will work.
(06:58):
The some people is hard gainers because hard gainers are people that struggle to gain weight. I fall into this category. I think I fell into this category when I was younger. It's just when you just don't eat that much. So you have to have those high calorie, highly tasty foods to get calories in to make sure that you're getting in a surplus. But for most people, if they eat a dirty bulk diet, they're just going to gain a lot of fat. The truth is about muscle building. It's a slow process and just because you are gaining weight does not mean you are gaining muscle. It's very different. That's why it's good to get your body fat tested because you could look on the scale and be like, man, this week I gained a kilo. I'm getting huge. But if you gained a kilo in a week, that does not mean that that kilo is muscle mass. Unless you get a DEXA scan or you get your callipers done by a well-educated personal trainer who can do your body fat callipers and you're the same body fat percentage and you've gained a kilo, then it's muscle mass. So 100%, but most likely if you're gaining a kilo a week, you're getting fat.
(08:19):
If you're advanced, if you're even intermediate, muscle gain is slow. It's very slow. It's painful. It's the worst part of lifting as a natural athlete or a natural lifter, bodybuilder, whatever you want to call yourself. It's very slow and it's challenging because sometimes you're like, man, why am I even doing this? I'm grinding five days a week, six days a week, I'm weighing my meals, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and it's just such a slow grind. That's just the nature of it, man. That's why it's important to fall in love with it because like fall in love with progressive overload, with getting stronger, sit yourself performance-based goals because if you're just worried about your aesthetics, it can get quite disappointing the more you do it. I've been training for 15 years now.
(09:08):
Do you think I'm gaining a kilo of muscle a week? I don't even know if I'm gaining a kilo of muscle a year. It's very hard the more you get advanced and if you don't take performance and hunting drugs, it's even harder because you have to do it. You have to get in a calorie surplus and just slowly chip away at building muscle. But the point I was getting at here is just because you're gaining weight does not mean you're gaining muscle. The calorie surplus that you need is so small compared to what you think It's you don't have to eat an extra meal per day. You don't have to eat an extra 1000 calories per day. All you have to do is just eat above your maintenance by the slightest margin. And the margin that I like to do that by is by just 5% of your calories, 5% of your calories. Let me do the math right now. So my current calorie maintenance is around 3,500. So I'm currently eating 3,500 calories at maintenance because I just finished the fat loss phase and I'm just chilling out at maintenance. I'm eating 400 more calories, which is awesome. And if I go 3,500, which is my maintenance, and just give myself the smallest calorie surplus,
(10:27):
It's 3,675. It's an extra 175 calories. It's nothing. It's absolutely nothing. It's so small, it's not even noticeable. That's like a piece of bread. So I'm not eating an extra McDonald's meal, I'm not having a hunger buster. I might just have an extra piece of bread at dinner and that feels like it's not good enough. It feels like what the hell's a piece of bread going to do? But you know what it does? It just gives you that surplus of energy and that could be enough for you to build as much muscle as you can without gaining excess fat. But if I went ahead and go 3,500, now I'm bulking. I need to go 4,500 and then just throw an extra thousand calories on. If I only need 175 calories, I've got what, 825 calories of potential calories just to go straight to fat gain every day.
(11:31):
That's a recipe for gaining way too much fat for the amount of muscle that I'm building. Sure, you'll optimise your muscle building just as much, but you're going to gain fat. And when you gain too much fat when you're bulking, it's not good for this very reason, then you have to lose that fat later on. Sure, it's fun eating whatever want doing a dirty bulk, optimising your calorie surplus, but gaining that extra fat is just slowing you down later on. That just means that your diet when you decide to lose fat again, is just going to be so much harder. Your prep is going to be so much longer because you've gained this extra X amount of kilos instead of just being disciplined with a 5% calorie surplus or even a 10% calorie surplus. If I was to go to a 10% calorie surplus, I'll be at 3,850, which still an extra 350 calories. That's not much When you think about it like I don't know, it might be an extra cheeseburger if we're going to talk about McDonald's, it's just 350 calories. That's five eggs.
(12:45):
If you just have your normal diet at maintenance and just add five eggs now you may just have the calorie surplus that you need to optimally build as much muscle as possible and gain as minimal fat as possible, which is the goal of a bulk. People call it a lean bulk, a clean bulk. I just call it an intelligent bulk because the more fat you gain now, the more you have to lose later on and it's just no good. And often that added fat that people gain when they don't really need to discourages them and kind of disappoints them when they look in the mirror because people like to maintain a lean physique. I'm not trying to say that you have to be lean all the time. I'm just speaking from experience. I coach a lot of people. I've trained my whole life pretty much since I was 14, 15 years.
(13:39):
That's someone's whole life somewhere out there in the world. I've trained for a long time. I know even myself, I'm a personal trainer, I'm a fitness dude online and I understand that looks aren't everything, but still I like to maintain a certain look just because that's how I like to look. Even though I know it doesn't mean anything about self-worth, it doesn't make me a better person. It doesn't make me better than you or your mom or your dad or your brother. It doesn't make me better. It's just the body fat percentage. I know that, but I like looking lean, looking muscular. It's just what it is. And if you ask most people it, they're being honest, they would probably say the same thing. Yes, it's healthier than being overweight, but it's just like an image that we aspire to and I train so much.
(14:35):
I want to get the most out of it, and for me, that's gaining the least amount of fat possible and building the most amount of muscle possible when I'm in a build. And to do that, you only need a pretty small surplus. Five to 10% is a great place to start. If you're a hard gainer, like I said earlier, a person that just struggles to gain weight and just can't seem to just put on any pounds, maybe you can start at 20%. That isn't an aggressive approach. So for me, if we come back to my example, just because it's personal and it's easy to understand, if we give myself a 20% calorie deficit, that brings me up to 4,200. That is quite a lot. That's quite a lot of food per day. So for me to do that, I think if I did that personally, I would gain weight at a pretty rapid rate and that would be too high for me.
(15:34):
So maybe I'm not a hard gainer, maybe 20% is too high. And once again, guys, these rules are just suggestions. Your perfect surplus might be 9.76% or 4.38%. It comes down to trial and error. I can give you my calorie calculator, which is in the top description of this. Wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can use my calorie calculator. But let me give you this piece of advice. It's just a guess, and that's all formulas are. They're just good guesses because the amount you walk, the amount you sleep, the length of your workouts, the type of workouts that you're doing, there's so many things that are different, but it's a very good guess for the information that you put into the formulas. So if 5% calorie surplus isn't doing it, if your weight stays the same and it was meant to be a 5% calorie surplus, don't complain.
(16:37):
Oh, Brock, your calorie calculator is rubbish. Maybe you put the wrong physical activity level in, or maybe you just need a higher calorie surplus. So instead of just saying, oh, woe is me, just find the solution and give yourself more calories. Bump your calories up by a hundred, 150, maybe 200 calories, stick to that for a week or two and see how you go. That is how you build muscle optimally. It's trial and error. Nothing is black and white. Nothing is exact except for principles like you need a calorie surplus, you need a deficit, you need maintenance for this and that. Those are pretty set in stone, but there are numbers and things like that. Things fluctuate, things change. So just make sure you keep that in mind. So there we go, the dirty bulk debunked. Thank you very much. Secondly, low reps and heavyweight is a must for muscle building. That's what we've been told. You got to lift heavy, bro. You got to get under the bar and trains of failure.
(17:42):
It's out there. It's out there, but it's not true. Look, I'm a big fan of lifting heavy weights in low rep ranges. That's my favourite way to train. I love it. I dig it. That's how I personally get strong. That's how many of my clients have gotten strong, and it's how most people get strong and build muscle. It's not the worst advice, but it is a myth because you can build muscle with slightly lighter weights and more reps as long as you take your training close to failure or to complete failure. The rep range, the weight that you lift doesn't really matter as long as you get within 3, 2, 1 or zero reps in reserve. If you don't understand what reps in reserve is, it's how many reps you have left in the gas tank. If you finish a set of bench press and you go, I could have got three more and then, but if I did three more, I'd definitely be done.
(18:48):
The bar would be stuck. That's three reps in reserve that is close enough to failure to build muscle. So it was two reps in reserve, so was one and so is zero. So as long as you get there, your rep range and the weight that you lift doesn't really matter. The weight that you lift is obviously going to be relative to the reps that you do. You can't lift super, super heavy weights for your strength levels for 20 reps because then it's not a super, super, super heavy weight. It may be super heavy for that rep range, but it's not a super, super, super heavy weight. So just keep that in mind with your training. Just because you're on the bulk doesn't mean that you have to change your training from exactly what it is to, I have to go heavy, I have to do two reps, three reps, four reps, or else I'm not going to build muscle. That's not the case.
(19:48):
It is smart when you are in a calorie surplus to pursue strength increases because you have the surplus of energy or surplus of calories behind you to help you recover, to help you perform, to help you get stuff done in the gym. So it is a good idea to lift heavy weights for low reps, but once you've finished that for the first one, two, maybe three exercises of your workout, then you can go into more isolated movements where it makes sense to just increase the reps a little bit and decrease the weight a little bit. You don't have to do heavy weights all the time. For example, if you're going to do the dumbbell lateral raise, doing three reps on a dumbbell lateral race doesn't feel the best. It kind of beats up your joints a bit, shoulders feel a bit funny, elbows feel a bit funny that didn't feel that good, and you kind of lift the up and then just drop down really fast as soon as they come up.
(20:50):
That's not the best controlled eccentric that I've seen. But if you're lateral raising in between anywhere eight to 20 reps, that seems to be a bit of a better rep range for that exercise and you might get more gains for it. You might bulk your shoulders more successfully with that rep range for that exercise. So context matters. However, opening the workout with some heavy overhead presses or heavy bench press, heavy squats, heavy deadlifts for 2, 3, 4, maybe even five reps, that's a great idea. You're going to get stronger. You're coming in fresh, so you're using your peak amounts of energy to lift the heaviest amounts of weight for the biggest compound exercises. And then as you fatigue and get into more isolated movements where you're breaking specific muscles down, you can decrease the weights and lift lighter loads for lateral raises. Y raises cable y raises.
(21:50):
Maybe you're doing tricep push downs, doing tricep push downs for three reps, four reps. You could probably get more out of it from doing somewhere between eight to 15 to 20 reps. These exercises, there are certain exercises, and this comes with experience that I have from being a coach for so long and training for so long, and you may develop this as you continue to pursue your body transformation, but certain exercises just lend themselves to towards certain rep ranges just from a practical perspective. So you don't have to lift low reps and heavyweight to build muscle. You can build muscle from anywhere between three reps and 30 reps. That's a big range. And the context, which helps you decide what rep range to do is do you want to get stronger? Do you want to work on strength endurance? Do you want to just focus on hypertrophy?
(22:41):
What exercise are you doing? How fresh are you feeling? Do your joints feel good when you do this exercise And that exercise, there's a lot of context and nuance in between deciding what rep range to do, which is why I always recommend if you don't know too much about programming, obviously you can go and learn and do courses like I have and seminars and study it, or you can hire a coach to do so obviously. How did that fly get in there? Obviously if you want me as your coach to do that, I can and you can check out the link in the description, which takes you to my plans page. Moving on to high protein diets to build muscle. A lot of people when they start bulking think I need to get even more protein to build even more muscle, but it's just not the case.
(23:29):
It's not the case. Protein is like, it's like your best friend. It's always there. It's always consistent, just always there. Through good times and bad times, you can always lean on protein. It's always going to be there. You want to keep it the same every time. You want to keep it high, always, whether you are cutting or whether you are building, it just stays the same. And if you increase it even more, you might just be trying to cover your ass and just make sure that you have enough protein. But when you have the calories that you need to hit for your calorie surplus and you have the protein that you need to hit in the fats and your carbs, if you bump up your protein a bit higher, something else has to come down your fats or your carbohydrates, and let's say you take fat off, that might just be fine.
(24:38):
Let's say you take carbohydrates off though, that might because you're in a calorie surplus, you have a surplus of energy, it might not affect you too much because you're just bumping up your protein by 50 grammes. It's a couple hundred calories, but if you have that extra protein because you're just trying to like, ah, I think I need more protein for this bulk and your carbohydrates lower, maybe your performance will drop. Maybe you'll have less energy, less focus, less productivity. Your recovery might be impaired, maybe not. Maybe it'll just be fine. It's not a big deal if you have more protein. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it is a myth to build more muscle. If you just keep having more and more and more protein, that doesn't mean you're just going to build more and more and more and more muscle.
(25:31):
That's not how it works. If you've maxed out your protein, you just kind of like having extra protein instead of something else and having it instead of something else doesn't really matter too much from a perspective of how your body operates, although you'll just have less carbs or less fat and more protein, but it might just be a preference thing. Now you've got to have more protein, which means you might have to have an extra scoop of protein. You might need to have an extra chicken breast, some more beef mints, and maybe you don't want to have that. Maybe you just want to have potentially more bread or more fruit, or you want to have an extra scoop of ice cream, which is carbs and fats, but you can't because your protein's so high. Just keep your protein where it needs to be a high protein diet, and that can be anywhere from 1.5 grammes of protein per kg of body weight or all the way up to the higher end of 2.5 grammes per kilo of body weight.
(26:36):
But even then, that's pretty high. That is where I eat. I like to kind of make sure I'm getting enough protein. I like to max it out, but also I'm doing quite a lot of training. I'm lifting weights five times per week, but I'm also doing juujitsu three times a week, three 90 minute sessions, which are pretty gruelling. So I want to just make sure because I'm moving my body so much that I'm sparing enough muscle mass, and if you are leaner, it is a good idea to be on the higher end of protein because body fat is muscle sparing, so people that are obese can be on the lower end of protein because they have so much body fat that's going to protect their muscle mass. If your body's in a deficit and you're obese, your body's going to use that body fat as energy, not muscle. So there's not, because that's the most intelligent thing to do. There's not really much point of just skyrocketing your protein because it's just a waste of calories that you could put towards having more fat or more carbohydrates, which are tastier in a real world point perspective, but also the extra carbohydrates could help fuel you better in your workouts and help you operate better cognitively throughout the day or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
When I first thought of doing a podcast in 2019, I wrote down everything that I wanted to achieve with the show, and one thing I never wrote down was to spam you with ads of products that I never really used myself. However, I did write down that I wanted to grow it as big as possible and have as many interesting people on the show as I could to help make that happen. All I ask is that you leave a review on the podcast platform that you're listening to this episode on and share it with someone that you know it will benefit. If you want to support myself even further and more importantly, your body transformation and that interested in having me as your coach to help you achieve the results that you just can't seem to achieve on your own. You can visit team brock ash b.com to see what programme fits you best back to the
Brock Ashby (28:42):
Show. Another myth that's been debunked quite a lot lately is having your protein shake or just your source of protein straight away after training. It's almost like you finish your last set of triceps and it's absolutely burning. As soon as you finish before breathing, you have to sprint to the locker room, grab your shaker, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, and skull your protein just to make sure you've made the most of the anabolic post-workout window. And the truth is, I'm not going to spend too much time on this, but you don't need to do that. It doesn't need to be straight away. It doesn't even need to be within half an hour. It is a good idea because after training, you are more sensitive to protein. Your body is ready to transport the nutrients that it consumes, post-workout to the area that needs it.
(29:42):
But in the real world, sometimes we just can't get to a source of protein fast enough. And the most important thing that we need to look at with protein specifically is our daily protein target. That's the most important. So we need to acknowledge that that's most important. How much protein we consume in a day? Did we hit two grammes per kilo of body weight? Yes, big tick. Did we have a post-workout shake within 10 seconds of finishing? No, it's not a big deal. It's not the biggest deal. Look, it is a good idea and potentially more optimal way to go about it, to have a source of protein within 30 minutes, one hour, two hours, I've waited four hours before. You don't die. Your muscle doesn't disappear, your biceps don't fall out of your arms.
(30:44):
But it's a good habit to get into, especially, and if you are someone that does two training sessions a day, let's say you're doing jiujitsu, you'd want to get that in earlier and with some carbohydrates, if you're going to train again for a second workout, or let's just say you're doing cardio later on in the day, you'll want to replenish your glycogen stores again and get some little bit of carbohydrates in there, but especially some protein, especially some protein. So think about that. If you are doing two sessions a day, some people do weights and then they do cardio or some people do cardio and then they do weights after a workout, get some protein in before your next workout. Some carbohydrates as well would be even more optimal to replenish your glycation SOS that you just depleted in a workout so that you can use your glycogen stores again, which we use when we're working out and exercising in that second workout.
(31:40):
But yeah, it just kind of makes sense to get your protein in after your workout. It's just a good habit to get into as well. If you finish your training session and then you have to drive home and then cook dinner and all that kind of stuff, and it's been an hour, it's not the biggest deal, you're going to be fine. Once again, the biggest thing you need to focus on is the daily protein target and making sure you're hitting that number by the end of the day. There is a caveat there because there is some optimal ways of getting constant feeding of protein throughout the day. So a good rule of thumb, if you have a protein target of two grammes per kilo of body weight, so I'm just going to go by me because that's an easy example. 180 grammes of protein is my, it's like a gramme of protein per pound of body weight or two kilos, 2.2 grammes of protein per kilo of body weight, 180.
(32:43):
It's around 180, 200, let's just say 200, right? 200 grammes of protein that I need to hit by the end of the day to hit my protein target, which is the most important thing. The second most important thing underneath that, if we're getting in the details of muscle building, is the feedings meal frequency in between feedings makes you kind of sound like a rat or a pet, like, oh, I'm having a feeding. That's pretty weird. But that's kind of how they talk about it in research, like protein feedings. So that's kind of how I was thinking about it, but let's just say meals, meal frequency, how often we should have that. The research is like four meals is the best place. Having five, six people used to think eight meals a day would stoke the metabolism. The research just kind of debunk that and said, that's not really true.
(33:38):
As long as you hit your daily calories and daily protein, that's really all that matters. That's the most important thing. But then they were like, oh, but if you want to be optimal, you could have somewhere between 0.4 grammes of protein per kilo of body weight or 0.55 grammes of protein, grammes of protein per kilo of body weight. Hope you're still following me per meal. And then once you find that, you're like, well, how many meals would that be for me? And then you have those amounts of meals or you could just go, alright, the optimal amounts of meals that I should have is four. It's round four. So you could have three, you could have 5, 3, 4, 5. It's still going to be fine as long as you hit calories and protein and everything else. So let's say we need to hit 200 grammes of protein and in four meals I need to have 50 grammes per day.
(34:43):
Sorry, 50 grammes per meal. If I'm having four meals, that is going to be more optimal than having two meals of a hundred grammes because I have those constant feedings throughout the day. So that's something to think about with hitting your protein. If you can't hit it straight away, it's not the biggest deal. Have you hit your protein target and then have you hit constant protein meals throughout the day? I could have four meals of 50 grammes, or I could have five meals of 40 grammes. It really just depends. Personally, what I like to do on a day-to-day basis, my target is 225 grammes of protein at the moment, and I probably have around four meals per day. I wouldn't say they're the most optimal at the moment. I just go with what is happening.
(35:38):
If I go through MyFitnessPal right now, just to give you an idea of how it doesn't really matter really. It does and it doesn't. So yesterday my first meal was 88 grammes of protein. That was breakfast, and then my second meal was 62. So keep in mind, I'm going for 225. My third meal was 67, my fourth meal was 19. And you know why? Because my protein was actually too high, so I actually had to pull it back and I had no protein sauce with my dinner last night because I was like, if I have the beef mints that I was meant to have for dinner, that would make my protein 250, maybe even closer to 300, which is too much. Once again, it's a waste for me. Even though I love the taste, I'm like, I'd rather have some carbohydrates to fuel me because today I had juujitsu and then I had gym, so I wanted full glycogen stores so I could smash my training.
(37:00):
I didn't want to feel depleted with that extra protein instead of carbohydrates. So instead of having beef mints and rice, I had just rice. I needed carbohydrates, so I had rice in wraps with avocado. It was pretty sad dinner last night, but you got to do what you got to do for the gain. So yesterday for me, probably not the most optimal for me to hit 225 in four meals, which I had, I would've had to have had around 56 grammes of protein per meal, and I had heaps for breakfast, 88 grammes. So I went too high and then I had 62 and then 67, which is pretty good. It's pretty close to 56. And then I had 19. I ended the day with a pretty abysmal amount of protein, but so you can see, obviously I know what's optimal, but in the real world it's really hard unless you're a professional bodybuilder, which I respect.
(38:06):
It's really hard to have a perfect amount of protein every single day unless you're meal prepping, weighing everything out and just like, I have to eat this. I have to eat this, and I'm eating with my wife, she's making dinner. Sometimes I make dinner. I'm a real average cook, but we are just trying to make it work and just like, yeah, I'm not a professional bodybuilder, so I'm not going to go to that perfect amount of 56 grammes per day just because I know that it doesn't matter too much for me personally because I'm not stepping on stage to show how much muscle I have. Obviously, I'm curious, and I'm trying to build as much muscle as I can. I'm sure you are, but to me, having 56 grammes of protein four times per day just isn't one of those things that I really care about too much.
(39:02):
As long as I hit my 225, which I did yesterday, I actually hit 12 grammes over by accident or just by lack of preparation. As long as I do that, I'm happy because I've had enough protein and I've had enough calories. I had seven calories less than I needed to yesterday, but that's pretty accurate. So I'm happy. For me, that's a big tick for building muscle. That was a big man. Got sidetracked on that one. I was talking about protein in the anabolic post-workout window. Alright, the last myth that I want to talk about for muscle building is training to failure all the time. Training just as hard as possible, man, go to bulk, got to go to failure every time, man, or right, you're not going to build muscle. That's what they say, I'm just going to take a quick drink.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Oh
Brock Ashby (39:55):
Yeah,
(40:00):
That's what people say. That's what I heard a lot when I was at high school just learning the ropes of lifting. I didn't actually have a personal trainer. I just learned from my friend Rob just did what all the big rugby boys did in the gym. I was just a classic person that I make content for. I was just lost just doing what the big boys do. And to be honest, it didn't really work that much. I could have gotten a lot better results if I was more detailed, but anyway, they just trained to failure all the time. That was what you do, bro. You just trained to failure. That's the manly thing to do. Be a real man and train hard rugby and yeah, chicks. It was a lot of that environment. So I was doing a lot of that just lifting heavy, heavy this, heavy that going to failure until I was shaking.
(40:53):
I'll do tricep dips until I couldn't. I was shaking like a car, an old car, and then I'd do leg extension until my legs literally couldn't move and then I'd do calf raises until I couldn't walk and I'll do shoulder presses until I couldn't lift my arms. I was just battering myself in the gym. And don't get me wrong, training to failure has its place, but you don't need to train to failure every workout for every set, for every exercise, it just, you're going to get too burnt out if you're going to true muscular failure in every set of every exercise, in every workout, you're going to smash yourself. It's going to be very hard to recover from, especially if you're training four times or more. If you have an intelligent split, it may work, but you're going to need time to recover. So what I like to do instead of training to failure all the time is to train more intelligently and actually ramp up the intensity. But before I talk about my approach, I want to acknowledge why training to failure all the time doesn't really work. So if you train to failure and you're really sore, you can't walk for a week, your legs are just crazy sore, can't sit down, oh, it hurts.
(42:15):
Someone accidentally kicks you while you're sleeping like your girlfriend, and then it's just absolutely painful because your quads are still recovering. If that's happening, you're actually stopping yourself from getting into the gym if you're too sore. That's why as a personal trainer, you don't just want to smash your client until you see them again, because then they can't train until they see you again a week later. So you just don't want to do that. If your muscle soreness is so hard, you can't train for an entire week, you've overdone it and you are slowing down your progress because you're only training that body part once per week. The research tells us we should probably train it at least two times per week, potentially three depends on the person, maybe even four depends on your goals. So if you want to train to failure the way that I like to do it so it doesn't get in your way and you're not so sore that you can't train and then you just hate the gym and give up.
(43:19):
So sore. I remember I took it quite easy. I trained this Indian lady and she trained with me for a while, but the first session that she had with me, she complained because she said she was so sore, so sore, she couldn't walk for a week. She saw a doctor, she took certain pills, and for me, I just thought it was absolutely crazy because we did body weight squats, body weight lunges, but she was so sore that she couldn't train for. It was like two weeks and I probably should have read the situation a bit better, but we did literally three sets of eight of body weight squats, and then we may have done split squats or maybe some leg extension, I can't even remember, but it was her quads. She said they were sore to touch. So for me, I acknowledged that error, but she was so deconditioned that even doing body weight squats, just squatting down and standing up with no weight and then doing leg press, which was probably like 14 kilos or 21 kilos, so light that you could easily bicep, curl it 50 times, it made her so sore.
(44:39):
That is not what we want because that stops you from training. It stops you from progressing. It stops you from, especially as a beginner, getting used to training and developing the skill of training because training is a skill. It's like if you're learning new exercises, the more you can do them, the more comfortable you become with them, and then when you're more comfortable with exercises, you can get stronger on them. So if you're a beginner and then you just get so sore, you can only train once a week, and then I'm training a beginner and I'm doing a better job than I did with this Indian lady and I'm training this person, three reps away from failure, maybe five reps away from failure just to be safe with this beginner, and they're coming in and they're doing the same workout because they can, because they're a beginner, like three times a week over one month, they're going to do an exercise 12 times and you are going to do them four.
(45:40):
If you train chest once a week and you're doing the dumbbell chest press on week one, and then again week two and again week three and again week four, you're doing it four times per month. If this beginner that I'm training is doing it three times a week and this a bit further away from failure, they're going to do it 12 times in a month, so three times more than you, they're going to develop the skill of the exercise, they're going to develop better form, and then with that repetition, they're also going to get stronger in that exercise because they're exposed to that exercise and the stimulus of that exercise more. So that is why we don't want to train to failure all the time. We want to leave some reps left in the gas tank, especially in the first week of the programme, and then we can ramp it up As we continue to move forward, we can do, this is how I like to do it, two to three reps in reserve for the first week, second week of the programme, we'd ramp it up.
(46:41):
We do one to two reps in reserve. The third week we can go all the way to failure up to one rep left in the tank, and then in that last week, I want to see you training to failure quite often because it's the last week of the programme, we just really go for it. We smash ourselves. We take ourselves to muscular failure on quite a lot of exercises except for the ones that it doesn't make sense. You don't want to squat to failure because you might get squashed by the barbell. There was an unfortunate incident where someone actually passed away doing that recently. We don't want to take a squat all the way to failure. We don't want to do the deadlift all the way to failure. We might slip a disc. We don't want to take the bench press all the way to failure because we'll probably squash ourselves like a pancake.
(47:27):
The leg press, if we go all the way to failure and we're doing a lot of weight, that's going to come back and squash us if we don't get the racks back in time to stop the weights. There are certain exercises where it's actually more of a danger to yourself to go to failure than it is to not go to failure. But then there are exercises like dumbbell chest press, bicep curls, leg extension, leg curl, 45 degree back extension, cable, chest fly. You can take those all the way to failure and there's little to no consequence except for gains in the last week of the programme because when you start a new programme after the last week of this current programme, when you do the new programme, you start back at three rips and reserves, so you're almost deloading in that first week of the programme.
(48:14):
Yet you're still taking it close enough to build muscle, close enough to failure to build muscle, and you're getting used to these new exercises that are in the programme or the new tempo or the new strategy, the new method, whatever your coaches decided to do, you can use that first week to almost feel it out. That doesn't mean you're training like a wet fish. Does that make sense? A wet fish, fish are always wet, a sock in the wind, a wind sock, whatever. It doesn't mean that you train light and you just cruise and you're not even, your heart rate's not even raised. You're just like, oh yeah, three reps in reserve. Man, it's so easy. It still needs to be hard, just not so hard that you can't recover from and improve. Apply progressive overload in the workouts following up to the rest of the programme, so to conclude this podcast, I'm going to tell you how I like to approach building muscle.
(49:17):
We'll start with our nutrition, and I like to start with the smallest calorie surplus possible to build muscle and minimise the amounts of fat gained. That generally is a 5% surplus. That's where I like to start. It's very minimal. It's the minimal way to approach because you know what? We can always increase calories, but if we go too hard too early and just gain too much fat too early, then potentially we might have to bring it back and then you're like, oh, I'm just getting fat when I'm bulking, so I might just start cutting again, and then you just cut for another eight weeks because two weeks past and you just couldn't resist yourself and you just ate way too much food. A lot of people do it. A lot of people do it. They're just in this vicious cycle where you bulk for two weeks and then you cut for eight weeks and you bulk for two weeks and cut, and you're like, yeah, this is just what you do, man.
(50:11):
This is how it works. It's not, I like people to commit at least three months, four months, five months. I'd love six months even more to a bulk. You need to really be in a surplus for a long time to get stronger, to build muscle, to maximise it, and if you do want to build for that long amount of time, you have to look at your calories and say, how is this going to be doable? Because if you just eat like a pig and just eat as much as you can for six months without thinking of macros and calories and you just go for it and you just absolutely blast your calories out of the water in a month or even two months, you're going to explode. You're going to have so much fat on you. Yes, you've built muscle, but when you decide to cut, you're going to have to cut for way longer than you need than if you were to just have a sensible calorie surplus, 5%, 10% above your maintenance and you can build for six months and still gain as little fat as possible. That's a true lean bulk and clean bulk, and within that nutrition, your protein, remember, it's like your breast friend, oh man, thinking about breasts. I'm joking. It's your best friend.
(51:32):
It stays the same. It stays constant. I told you the markers to follow earlier, but protein stays the same. Fat. I didn't talk about fat, but you keep it around one gramme per kilo of body weight and then the rest is carbohydrates. Carbohydrates usually go pretty high when we're trying to build muscle. That's your nutrition supplements. I like creatine. Take it. It's good. I've talked about it before. I won't bother. Training stays the same. You don't have to go low reps in heavy weight. You can continue training the way you are. Low reps in heavy weight is good for the opening exercises that are generally compounds and heavy. You want to do them when you're fresh and feeling good. It's good idea to do your low reps heavy weight early on in the session, but that doesn't mean you can't do lighter weights as well, so don't write them off.
(52:25):
You can do lateral raises, bicep curls, tricep extensions, tricep, cross cable extensions, push downs, pushups for 20 reps, 25 reps, 30 reps if you want to. You can build muscle anywhere between three reps and 30 reps. You don't have to do low rep heavy weight just because you're bulking bro. Get out of that mindset because that sort of training does beat up your joints too when you're lifting heavy. Okay? If you have good form, it is going to target your target muscles, but know that heavy lifting can be taxing on your joints. I'm not saying it's bad for you. I'm not saying you're going to get injured, but if you just do that lifting all the time, I've done it before. I've taken my strength training sessions for too long, sorry, strength training phases for too long, like four weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks, just strength training.
(53:14):
I developed sore wrists. I developed sore elbows, sore shoulders from doing too much heavy work and not enough work where my joints and connective tissues are getting rests by doing those hypertrophy rep ranges, that's training okay with steps. You don't need to blast 10,000, 12,000, 20,000 steps per day anywhere above. I like my clients that are building to sit between eight to 10,000 because if you are blasting your steps 20,000 a day, 15,000 a day, that's just calories that you have to eat back and that might be fun for you for a while. Like, man, I get to eat so many calories and I'm doing so many steps, but it does get tiring eating a lot of food all the time, and then you may not just may just get so sick and tired of eating because your steps are so high that you get over a surplus and you're like, oh, man, I just want to go to maintenance, and then you just give up on your bulk.
(54:13):
Just try to limit them between eight to 10,000. I'm not saying that if someone asks you to go for a walk, you turn them down, you're like, nah, bro, I'm bulking still. Go for a walk. Still live your life, but just look at your weekly average and keep it between 56,000 to 70,000 because if you're doing a lot of steps, that's extra calories that you're burning that you're going to have to consume later on to make that up to make sure that you get into your calorie surplus. I hope this has helped you. This is Brock Ashby debunking the muscle building myths. I hope it's been good. Let me know if you found this helpful. Drop me a comment. Send me an email team@teambrockashby.com if you have any other topics that you want me to cover. I have reached out to many people to jump on the podcast, so hopefully we get some people on and have some interesting conversations though. I do like these solo podcasts and I hope they bring you value. Thank you very much, team. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
It's nice to actually finally meet you.
Scott (00:02):
Yeah, mate. We've been working together for a while now.
Brock Ashby (00:05):
A while. Two years I think. Since, yeah, really since Covid started. And I was just twiddling my thumbs, getting fat, and I was like, what should I do? Maybe get in shape. So here we are.
Scott (00:16):
So how's your training going throughout the challenge?
Brock Ashby (00:19):
It's good. It's good. Yeah, it's been really good. So we're in the last week now, obviously, and I've been doing this for so long with you and No, I mean, it feels like I learned so much, so it's good. I'm just pushing it, especially the weekend. My girlfriend goes to the gym quite a bit too, so she's able to spot me so I can really max out on whatever I need to do. That's handy. So it's been a really good last week of the programme. I'm really happy with where I'm at for all things, and I mean, I'm not going to lie. I love the low rep ranges faster and it just makes me, it's just a nice relief, I guess. Me too.
Scott (01:02):
Me too. I despise higher rep work, and even recently some of the research has been, some of it has been encouraging lower rep ranges, so that's why I've kind of made that transition down there because you get closer to the reps that count earlier on, because let's say we do 15 reps, the first 10 are kind of a little bit easy
Brock Ashby (01:25):
For sure
Scott (01:26):
Until you get to those ones that are hard. So you're still technically training to failure, but the kind of question is, well, why are we waiting 10 reps to get there? Why don't we just do the last five?
Brock Ashby (01:37):
Exactly. Yeah. Cut out the middleman. Exactly.
Scott (01:41):
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, our joints may take a little bit more of a hit and need a bit more time to recover, but yeah, that's the general consensus. I'm kind of bringing the reping to slowly down. There's still benefit for, I think certain exercises do benefit from higher rep ranges. Doing three reps on a lateral raise doesn't feel the best.
Brock Ashby (02:02):
It feels
Scott (02:02):
A bit swingy or it feels like, yeah, there's certain exercises that don't really line up with it, but yeah, that's the general Wait, so what have you been trying to pursue?
Brock Ashby (02:14):
Yeah, so I'm doing a fat loss level two right now, mostly because I'm going on vacation next week, going a beach vacation to Hawaii. So I'm like, well, I got to shut a little bit here. So yeah, it's, I've only really done fat loss level one in two from a fat loss perspective. I've done muscle building and maintenance too, so I did level two this time, just I was like, it's been a big summer, so wanted to shed a little bit. So I'm down to 167 pounds, so 76 kg, about 14, 15% body fat probably around there. So pretty good. I've gone down to 1 62 pounds before, 13, 14% body fat. And so yeah, that's where I'm at right now. I'm almost pretty much going by body fat percentage in terms of measuring for myself. For me, that's a good benchmark is what I've learned.
Scott (03:10):
So how are you measuring that? The percentage?
Brock Ashby (03:14):
Yeah, it, it's always subjective. I'm sure I don't have calliper, I don't go in and get a deck of scan or anything like that or whatever I could, but I don't, I mean, I have a scale. It's actually, I think, generally accurate and you can compare it to people, images online. Anyone can Google. I
Scott (03:32):
Feel like images are one of the best ways to do it.
Brock Ashby (03:35):
So that's kind of what I do. I mean, I estimate I'm probably 14 to 16%. My scale says 15 on the dot. So somewhere in there I would assume.
Scott (03:44):
Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, my scale's terrible. It says I'm like 25%. It's just way off.
Brock Ashby (03:52):
That's insane.
Scott (03:54):
Yeah, I just use it for my weight.
Brock Ashby (03:57):
Yeah, I don't know if you'd be in the personal training business with those numbers.
Scott (04:01):
It'd be a tough slog for sure.
Brock Ashby (04:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's kind of where, at least training wise or nutrition wise I'm at. I mean, I've luckily been able to really own in on it the last few weeks, haven't been needing out or anything, which I know for a lot of people is a big thing for me. I'm just laser focused on it and really just, I hit my numbers down to the gramme because myself, I know myself, if I go off the waggon a little bit, I go off the waggon. So for me, it's all about the discipline. And that's a testament to you just over these last couple of years with you. It's been good and I've learned that about myself throughout this. I staying disciplined now, for me, it's like it's weird if I don't weigh my meal out or something like that at home, just for my own head. So I mean, I still go out and do stuff with friends and all that stuff, obviously, but
Scott (04:53):
Yeah, no, I'm super similar, man. I chose fat loss for this challenge too. I thought I'd just jump on it. I wanted to get a bit leaner, no real reason, just wanted to, I was just like, ah, I feel a bit, I'd never really weighed that much consistently. I was on the heavier end, so I just kind of chopped it down and I was travelling last weekend. We went to a wedding, so we flew and all that kind of stuff, and that's tricky to follow with food, all that. I was the same as you tracking, trying to get very accurate protein, this and everything weighing stuff. And even if I was eating out burgers, I still love burgers. This place that I eat at, you can put them in MyFitnessPal and they have, it's not going to be the same every time, but it's as close as you can when you're eating out. So I was very onto it. And over the wedding I was a little bit worried, not
Brock Ashby (05:49):
For sure,
Scott (05:50):
But pretty man, there's going to be some big obstacles today. So I kind of pushed calories back and all that kind of stuff and I ended up doing all right. There was all these things I didn't really eat. I didn't have cake, and I'm not a huge cake fan, so if it was gelato, it might've been a different story, but it was just cake. I just kind of left it. But then these meals came out and they were like beef cheeks, mashed potato and green beans. And I was like, man, this is a meal prep service.
Brock Ashby (06:16):
Yeah, that's nice.
Scott (06:18):
And I ended up airport food and all that kind of stuff. I ended up hitting my target a week early. I kind of posted. So now I'm at this week just maintaining and I'm still tracking and weighing my food because I'm the same as you. If I let it go and don't track and just say I'm just going to be a bit more chill and just maintain my maintain just ends up, I just gain weight. I've never really met anyone that's just eyeballing their food and staying the same. We always just give ourselves the benefit of the doubt. Ah, it's probably low. Ah, it's going to be all good. And then you just slowly gain. So I'm going to do a real dedicated build on this very lean, very small surplus because we don't need a huge surplus and try and minimise fat gain and maximise muscle gain. Is your plan similar on the back of your diet and go into Hawaii?
Brock Ashby (07:10):
Yeah, try and, yeah, that's kind where I am. And I guess that leads me to maybe a question for you, and I don't know how if other people are in this situation, but I've worked with you now for two years actually. I don't think I've ever changed my protein. I've always been at 170 grammes, basically.
Scott (07:26):
That's
Brock Ashby (07:27):
Fine.
Scott (07:27):
Everything's a constant. We don't need to change it.
Brock Ashby (07:30):
And I didn't know eventually, I mean, I really feel like I've made some pretty good progress, honestly over the last year. I look totally different in a good way, and I didn't know if I should ever start. Yeah, no, I will for sure. Yeah, I'll send 'em over to you. And so I never knew because obviously I trust you. I don't know how people end up getting in these 200 gramme protein ranges, two 20 gramme protein ranges after how many years at the bottom of a cut, should I do that? And I feel like I've done it long enough now. I didn't know if I should just continue to keep my protein where it's out, which I know is generally high, or if I want to get to that next level, is there a time I should start increasing it? Because all I do is yo-yo, my carbs up and down pretty much when building and maintenance and cutting, which is I know fine, but if I want to take it to the next level, I don't know, want to try run it by you and see what you
Scott (08:22):
Thought. Yeah, that's a great question. So yeah, we don't really need to bump it up to a higher end. If anything, it's more for me, like a safety blanket.
Brock Ashby (08:34):
Got it.
Scott (08:37):
I might have too much, but at least I have too much. At least I'm not going to have. Not enough.
Brock Ashby (08:41):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Scott (08:43):
And because the only downside to it is first of all, it's not damaging to your health If you have a higher protein, it's only potentially damaging if it's above four grammes per, which is crazy. I'd have to hit 360 grammes a day.
Brock Ashby (09:00):
Yeah, there's no way what
Scott (09:00):
I'd have to eat to hit that. But yeah, I couldn't do that. So the only downfall to having protein that may be too high for your needs is that you get less calorie distribution for your carbohydrates and fats. That's the only downfall. And I actually particularly like protein high foods. I enjoy meat. I'm eating my yoghourt.
Brock Ashby (09:23):
Yoghourt, yeah, there
Scott (09:24):
You go. I'm just absolutely smashing that. And I have high protein milk and I've just kind of created a life that's around it, high protein lifestyle, so I don't actually mind hitting the higher protein. But yeah, the only downfall is less carbs and potentially less fat. But fat's usually cool. It's more so just carbs, like you said, that we're going up and down with because fats should stay the same too in the same spot. So that could be like, okay, carbohydrates is more fuel. So potentially that might mean your workouts may not be as punchy, but usually that's not the case. So I think for you, it would be worth a trial.
(10:06):
I'm a big believer in, as you get leaner, you need a bit more protein because you have less body fat stores and body fat stored body fat is stored energy. So if you think of sparing your muscle mass, if you have quite high body fat, you probably don't need the highest amount of protein because you have a lot of body fat that is stored. Body's going to use that before it uses muscle because there's so much of it. But as you get leaner, like you're saying, your body's changed a lot in the last year and your body fat's relatively low, 15 and lower is considered, I would say low, like your athletic region.
(10:47):
Then potentially you could look at bumping it up to spare that muscle mass when you get leaner, especially when dieting, when you're building, it's kind of less important because you do have those extra calories and carbohydrates behind you, so you're not really at the risk of losing muscle because you have so much energy behind you in the form of calories and carbohydrates. But in a cut, maybe you could look at it and just see how you feel on it and see how your body responds. There's no real like, oh, that's going to be bad for you. That's going to be good for you. Because there's a range 1.6 to 2.5, you can have this big range. You could be at maybe one 20, or you personally could be at maybe like 200, something like that. I'm at 225, which seems like a lot. It's pretty scary. That's why I have such big heaping in my foods. But I think it's something that you just trial out and kind of go from there, see how you feel, and if it's not making a big change, carbohydrates probably a little bit more exciting than protein food, so you could just kind of keep it at one 70. But
Brock Ashby (11:50):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of like, I love protein mean for me, if anything, I have to wash my protein intake because I love it. So yeah, I was thinking about in the timing of it, I'm almost at the bottom of my cut pretty much after this week, I'll probably be down to what, assuming I'm on the right path, like 13, 14% body fat, I might try to bump up the protein. I was thinking somewhere in a 200 range just to try it. And I did want to do probably a bulk. I kind want to try that again as we're go into the winter here in the states. So that's kind of what I was toying around with and I'd love to get your thoughts if you think that's a reasonable range or a good idea.
Scott (12:32):
Yeah, I think it's worth it, and just kind of be aware of how everything feels. It's hard
Brock Ashby (12:36):
To track
Scott (12:37):
Everything, but maybe your workouts will feel better. Maybe you protein is pretty satiating as well, so it helps feel more full. So that's another kind of diet hack, if you will, to help you feel more satiated and be less hungry is to gear towards more protein. People find that it can really stop them eating a bit more. I haven't necessarily felt that I still feel hungry at a deficit no matter what. I'm just
Brock Ashby (13:04):
Like, I'm
Scott (13:05):
Just hungry, man. I don't know what to do. It's just the fact that you're in a deficit of energy. Of course you're going to be hungry, but maybe that is kind of the best way that I feel. But yeah, I think it's worth toying around for sure.
Brock Ashby (13:17):
Okay.
Scott (13:18):
Are you taking creatine?
Brock Ashby (13:20):
I'm actually not right now. I have before. Yeah, I probably will. Again, I'm just out of it honestly, so I haven't gone back to buy it, so I plan on it unless you think otherwise.
Scott (13:33):
Have you felt different using it?
Brock Ashby (13:36):
Yeah, I feel generally a little different. I mean, to me, I feel like I'm always fairly good. I mean, when I'm in a deficit, I'm never really dragging super hard at the gym. I try to get a little bit of carve with my system no matter what before the gym, even if I'm on a deficit or kind of a bulk whatever, I try to use that as kind of fuel a little bit. I mean, it just goes back to I guess having athletic background, probably similar to you, maybe carve up a little bit in the morning before sports game and feel better. So yeah, I never really feel like I'm driving. So I think the creatine, I think it helped and I definitely was going to plan on it. Again after this challenge. I just haven't been back and probably go out for my trip to get some.
Scott (14:16):
Yeah, yeah. Nice. Yeah, I think it's good to take. I just stay on it year round. But yeah, sometimes I didn't take it when I travelled, so that's probably not the best thing. That's something you need to take on a daily basis. But yeah, I'd recommend just doing that, especially when you're building or even when you're cutting, it's just something nice to do that the research behind it, none of it's negative, so it's kind of just walk down, what am I doing? The only thing is people respond at different rates. That's why I asked you how you feel. I feel good, but I've been on it for so long, I don't potentially know what it's
Brock Ashby (14:47):
Maybe. Yeah, like a placebo.
Scott (14:49):
Yeah, that's right. But even if it plays a placebo, it's playing its role cheap enough to, I don't mind,
Brock Ashby (14:57):
But I know you don't do BCAs any of that stuff, and I can attest to that. I remember before I knew what I was doing, I was taking that stuff, thinking would made some sort of difference. I was like, it would waste a waste of money until if anyone listens to this, you don't need that stuff. I'm a testament to it. That's just garbage marketing.
Scott (15:13):
Yeah, I was doing that too, man. I was doing that too. It just showed, yeah, if you have your protein goal, there's enough BCAAs in the protein diet that you're having. I used to do it too though. I was religious about it. I was eating, I mean not eating bca a shaker throughout the whole workout. Yeah, I need to sustain my muscle building acid. I'm going to break down and I'm going to lose
Brock Ashby (15:33):
It. Yeah, it's all the BCAs, nothing else. That's what they tell you. Yeah, right.
Scott (15:38):
Yeah. Yeah, man. A
Brock Ashby (15:39):
Joke.
Scott (15:40):
I guess we all living with learning.
Brock Ashby (15:42):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, creatine. So I'll definitely make sure I get back on that after my upcoming trip. And yeah, I was probably going to hop into a bulk, probably level one just because even if I'm at maintenance or a little over, it's easy for me to gain a little body fat percentage. So I definitely am careful trying to be mindful of it as I go into a bulk or you gain some body fat, obviously, but just being measured about it or disciplined about it and not completely falling off the waggon.
Scott (16:12):
And how's your strength going with exercises? I remember you were training at home when we were working together and then we transitioned here
Brock Ashby (16:21):
And for anyone else throughout the train at home, Brock's, home workouts are great. They made a world difference for me, which was literally just bands and I had those Bowflex weights, I went up to 50 pounds or whatever they were, and that was great as is. So now that I have gym access, it's like, whoa, the whole world's opened up. So strength-wise has been great. Being able to do deadlifts or squats, all that actual kind of big compound lifts or whatever they might be. So it's been really good. Strength wise, I feel really good. I mean, I guess bench is a common barometer, but as you do 1 95 on the rep, three reps, 195 pounds or three reps, which for me is that's more than I weigh.
Scott (17:05):
I have to find the kilos. I can't really,
Brock Ashby (17:08):
I know we need a little converter here, but there you go.
(17:12):
Yeah, there you go. 80 kilos. That sounds about right. Yeah, so I guess since me, it's worth's more than my body weight. I feel good about it. Yeah, that's solid. But for me, I always prioritise form. I'd rather get the tempo right than just to hit big numbers for me. If I have to go two weeks in a row at the same time, maybe my form wasn't so good on the same weight last week, I'd rather just do same weight the next week and make sure instead of rushing it and going two seconds down that I'm actually hitting the three seconds down for me, that's paramount.
Scott (17:45):
Yeah, that's so good. And that's a way of applying progressive overload because if you just hit the same weight the next week, that technically isn't. But if you're going from let's say 90% good form to a hundred percent good form, that is a way of progressively overloading because it's like you've increased the stimulus to the muscle, your form is better. And also on there, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. We need to look at reps as a standard over here, a long black or an Americano, A standard is two shots,
(18:26):
Two shots of coffee in it. And that's how we need to look at reps. I feel like sometimes people are doing one shots, people are doing three shots, reps just look different. They're rushing it or it's super slow, or maybe it's a bit wonky, or maybe your hands are too wide or too, we need to have a standard for every exercise so that we can know that, okay, we're doing this eight times and then next week we're doing it nine times or we're doing it heavier, but for eight times to apply progressive overload. But it's very hard to apply progressive overload when every time it's different.
(18:59):
Unless I changed the tempo and it's like, okay, we are doing a different thing, then that's fine. The standard has changed. I've changed it. But if you are one week, two week, three, week, four week in the programme, those reps should look the same because that's the only way to know how you're actually getting stronger. If you do a hundred pounds or what, 87 kg for three reps at two, sorry, 3 0, 1 0, and then the next week you do 90, so it's heavier, but you do it 2 0, 1 0 and you're like, oh yeah, that's progressive overload. You're like, not really.
Brock Ashby (19:30):
Yeah, exactly. It's just another way to slice the same piece of cake or whatever. Yeah, and that's a really good point. Or when you think about from a entry level, you all say with something like lateral raises, right? Adding two and a half kgs every week to your lateral raises, that's not happening. No way. So even if you're doing for 20 pounds or something one week, and then luckily for us, we have dumbbells that go in increments of 2.5 pounds. So what one kg or something like that? Yeah.
Scott (20:02):
Nice. Yeah, we have that too. See this rack here, but it's usually just up to 10. So what's that? 25 pounds, 22.5 pounds. After that, they kind of jump a bit more, but
Brock Ashby (20:13):
Okay. Yeah, ours go up to 42.5 pounds all in 2.50,
Scott (20:19):
Nice.
Brock Ashby (20:19):
Which is huge. So for anyone who has a gym with that, you're lucky. It's not common with the gyms here. Certainly, and especially for things like lateral raises, something like that. I mean, adding five pounds to the lateral raise, that's real heavy. So that's a big jump. Progressive overload on that. Yeah, you can manipulate tempo if you need. Maybe add a couple reps at the end is something I've done. For example, if I'm still feeling good after eight reps at 3 0, 1 0, then if I keep it the same the next week, maybe I'll say I'll get 10 reps or 4 0, 1 0, whatever it might be.
Scott (20:49):
Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, that's what you need to aim for. Yeah, I'm saying at the moment I'm stuck on 12 kilos. My, I still have a gym membership anyway, but for me, technically here, 12.5, I would do that for eight or 10. But for me to jump to fifteens, it's like that's an extra five pound, five point something pound jump. And yeah, it's rough. I might get six reps that are really good reps and then the rest I'd have to sloppily go over and swing around if I ever wanted to do it. Or I would just have to breathe for 15 seconds A, and then it'd be like a rest, pause drop. We
Brock Ashby (21:28):
Were just swinging with momentum and we all see those people in the gym, just plug them up and down.
Scott (21:34):
And then if I say, oh yeah, well I applied progressive overload, it's like, nah, but you had a rest in between. And once again, now that standard has changed
(21:42):
And it kind of feels like, okay, you sound like you're taking your lifting too serious, but I guess you've been training for a while. I've been training for ages. You have to kind of get serious if you still want to make progress. If you don't get serious, then you just keep everything super casual, then it's kind of more frustrating than rewarding because you're not progressing. So it's kind of the same with food. If I'm like, oh yeah, whatever, I'm just going to bulk, but it's going to be a, I don't know, sloppy bulk or just I'll just eyeball it and then I might just gain fat too fast and then I'm like, oh shit, now I've got to cut again. And I haven't built that much muscle. I've just got greedy and just eating too much. Now I've got to restart it.
Brock Ashby (22:23):
Yeah, that's exactly right. Once you get to a certain phase, and for me it's kind of been maybe since last year after I was maybe a year and a half in with you overall, I said like, okay, I've made really good progress, but how can I keep progressing and take it to another level if I can? And so that's kind of the part where I'm at now for everyone else listening, if you've been working with Brock for a year or two, you might be at that kind of stage too. And that's why I'm just trying to figure, okay, I've made some really, really happy with what I've done and how can I take it to that next level where I want to go? So that's pretty much where
Scott (23:01):
I'm at. Yeah, you have to keep it exciting, keep it progressing, or else it just gets frustrating. And then I think that's why a lot of people can fall off. They feel like they've kind of almost clocked the gym or reached the point where they can't get better, but you kind of have to keep finding ways to win in some way, set these little goals. That's why hitting PRS or pbs, whatever you want to call it, personal records, personal best, hitting them in the gym is important. Not just like, oh, I did one rep bench press for 90 kilos. It's more so even just beating eight reps and doing the same weight for nine or tracking the weights that you do can keep you kind of interested or else you can just feel like you're just training. If you're not tracking your weights, how heavy you lift, you're just exercises. And it's like, is it better? Is it worse? Is it heavier? It just gets grey. I think the more grey things are, the more you can walk away from it and just be like, I think I'm not doing anything.
Brock Ashby (23:58):
Having goals at the end of it has been key actionable goals, attainable goals, not something you're never going to hit. So then you get turned off or something that's too easy where you're just going to say, okay, that was hardly even a goal. So that's been kind of important for me. My next goal, for example, would be where I'm at, okay, I'm at the bottom of a cut, which I think I've done really well on, but maybe how can I gain eventually I want to end up at a hundred and probably 75 pounds, which is 79 kilos. How can I get there while still maintaining? At the end of the day, I would love to be 13 50% body fat, which is going to be a long process and up probably two years into it. But how can I get to that point where I'm 10, 12 pounds heavier than I'm going to be now, but still maintain that body fat? And that's why I'm asking questions like, Hey, do I need to increase protein or, I know it's just time, but it's all time, years and years, which I'm aware of. So just going to that level and having that end goal in mind for me, I'm not going to stop until at some point around there.
Scott (25:07):
Yeah, no, no, no. That's a great question. Yeah, I'll answer that and then we can wrap up. But yeah, I got a question today on my Instagram stories and was like, what's the deal with maintenance body? Can I just do that? And that's a very slow way of doing things. I'm a big believer in bulking and cutting because that's probably the most efficient way to do it. You really double down on this and then you do this. Maybe you really build a house and then you flip it instead of flip it and build a house at the same time. It's just like nothing really happens. So with that though, if you look at my transformation when I was a twig at 69 kilos, I'm now 90, I was 92, that's like 23 kilos heavier, which is maybe 50 pounds. There's a big disparity between those two weights.
(25:56):
I couldn't have done that if I tried to maintain recomp, you know what I mean? That would've been a hell slow process. I'd probably be like 72 kilos by now if I tried to do that. But I wasn't really starving myself, and it was pretty bad. Eating disorder, all this kind of stuff. There was a big dumpster fire going on. But anyway, I would never be who I am now if I didn't get in a surplus and just owned that, I was going to get a little bit fatter, going to get a little bit this, going to get a little bit of that, and then I cut down later on. So to put it back into your situation, it's like you have to get into a place where maybe it's a little bit uncomfortable, especially because hit this reward of being so lean and you're going to go to Hawaii and have this beautiful holiday.
(26:41):
It is cool that it's wintertime potentially because it's a good time to do it and you can just slowly chip away at building. But yeah, you will, if you want to be 12 pounds heavier at the same body fat, there's no way you can just do that and just maintain and be like, oh yeah, I'm just going to happen, man. Just going to heavy, bro. It's not going to work. Yeah, you'll have to create, it doesn't have to be a huge surplus because once again, there's gaining fat and gaining muscle, and the reality of gaining muscle is it's not actually as fast as you think. You don't actually have to eat as much as you think. My build is going to be very conservative. I'm going to be one or 200 calories above my maintenance, so I'm going to be my maintenance. Obviously it's quite high.
(27:25):
So I'm very active and I've had a good metabolism from since I was young. My maintenance at the moment is around 3,400. I lost a bit of weight, 35 when I was at 92 kilos. Now it's like 34, so I'm probably going to be at 3630, 6 50, something like that. But that's a very small surplus, just above maintenance. So for you, I'd recommend something similar, man, especially you want to hold onto that leanness that you've really earned because dieting sucks. And the less time you can spend dieting, the better life is much better with there's more food involved. So if you can try to be, what calories are you on now or what's your main
Brock Ashby (28:05):
My maintenance is like 2,800, I think. 29, somewhere in there.
Scott (28:10):
Yeah. That's awesome, man. That's
Brock Ashby (28:11):
Cool. Pop my head.
Scott (28:13):
Yeah, but you might have to recalculate it at the end of your cut because remember, it's not the same when you start the cut, especially if you've lost weight. How much weight have you lost over this kind of last period of time
Brock Ashby (28:25):
That you start? I think I'm down like nine pounds, 10 pounds. So
Scott (28:33):
Yeah, you're about four Ki five, yeah. Yeah, so
Brock Ashby (28:38):
Just I'm a little over a pound a week loss on average. I mean, if I have a big eating week or something, water weight, or maybe it's bigger one week or whatever.
Scott (28:46):
But yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, so just kind of reevaluate your maintenance. It's probably not going to be exactly the same as when it started. Just take that into consideration. And then when you are at maintenance, after your cut, it might feel like you're gaining weight, but it could be your water and carbs. Like, man, I switched to maintenance this week. I hit the same weight and then I went up 500 grammes and then last night I went up again and I was like, shit, I'm lucky. I feel like I'm almost a kilo heavier, almost a kilo, and I'm just that maintenance. So maybe I ate too much, maybe my tracking's a bit off. Maybe it's water stores, whatever. I'm just going to chill out and just kind of figure it out. If it still stays too high, I've probably overdone it and maybe this is my new surplus or whatever.
(29:28):
But yeah, just be very slow with it. You don't really need to. Yeah, maybe 2,800 could be your new surplus at this lighter weight. Yeah, that's a good point. Don't worry. Your metabolism can catch back up. It's just a lighter person and a lighter person burns less calories and all that kind of stuff. And you have less neat when you're in a calorie deficit as well than when you're at maintenance or so plus all these kind of factors play into it. So yeah, I would recalculate it. And maybe your new maintenance is maybe 26, something like that. And now your surplus could be 28, something like that. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (30:02):
Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. And I might bump up my protein just to try it, see how my body responds and go from there. So yeah, thanks for helping with all that and talking through this and for all your other clients. I know a lot of people are in fat loss, and I was so scared to go into my first bulk of you got to be okay with mentally gaining a little bit of body fat. So to me, it was well worth it. And once I got over that initial fear, which was just in my head of like, oh my God, I'm going to get fat after my first bull, which I did, I think last year, but you can easily lose it right off the year after and not exactly where I'm at.
Scott (30:42):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, man. Yeah, no, that's so good to say. And I'm still similar. I still go through, just because I'm a personal trainer doesn't mean that I'm immune to feeling like you've put on a little bit of body fat. You don't feel your best. Not saying that I struggle with confidence or self-esteem issues or anything like that, but everyone has an idea of what they feel like when they're at their best. And when you're not at your best, you kind of feel a little bit vulnerable. You're like, oh,
Brock Ashby (31:07):
Maybe I'm
Scott (31:08):
Not feeling my best. But yeah, you got to, that's why once again, tracking weights, tracking how strong you are, your prs in the gym, you, you're chasing numbers in the gym. That's the best thing to do because it keeps your mind focused on the bigger goal. This is what I'm trying to do. It's not just I'm getting fat for no reason and then I'm just going to get less fat later on. It's very easy to look at it like that and it's like, no, no, no. You're kind of investing into this muscle mass that you carry around and when you're eating more calories, it's a good time to get strong man.
Brock Ashby (31:41):
And you're still making progress on your goal. It's still getting toward goals, which I like. And I guess the last point I'd make and then we can wrap it up is one thing I learned living in the states and when I started tracking food, since like I mentioned, I'm pretty particular about it in the states food labels, you're allowed to round in the us. So however many, if it's five grammes of carbs, that would usually equal 20 calories. But when you add up the labels and the calories in the states, the grammes of carbs companies are allowed to round. I think it's like 15%. We don't have decimals here in our Yeah,
Scott (32:18):
I heard it was 20 20%.
Brock Ashby (32:19):
Yeah, it's somewhere around there. So I was like, for the first six months, you're tracking. I'm like, why are my in my pal the calories? We've never match matchup. I was like, what in the world is this? And I looked it up and I was like, oh, only I knew that at the beginning. So I'm sure there's a lot of other people out there might have just started who were like, what is going on? The US allows some pretty big, that's say 20% is huge margin. I think even if you have 4.5 grammes of food in something that they make, they can round it down to the lower number if they want. I think it goes all the way down even to that scale too. So I mean, I know it's very minute and a very detailed thing. I don't know if other people will look at it, but it was something I learned along the way is that nutrition labels, you're allowed to round down. I know when I've been in Europe before, they have decimals on their nutrition labels, which I always thought was helpful.
Scott (33:15):
For example, here, just looking at this yoghourt, there's decibels like protein 14.9, fat 0.3,
Brock Ashby (33:22):
It doesn't exist here. Yeah,
Scott (33:24):
Maybe Aussie has different standards than America, but yeah, that's crazy, man. But if you think about 20%, let's say we have 3000 calories, we could be 600 over.
Brock Ashby (33:34):
Exactly, right?
Scott (33:35):
I could think of losing weight and then I'm literally like, yeah, 3000, I'm going to lose weight and then I could be eating 3,600. I could be gaining weight. That's how big the discrepancy is.
Brock Ashby (33:46):
And if you are eating something that you think it's 14 grammes of carbs, it says that on the package and you're eating a lot of it, and maybe it actually is 14.7 in us, somewhere along there, you can round down to that 14 and you would be eating a higher amount, not even know it. So it is a bummer. I think it might just be a US thing, but it is something to keep in mind for everyone. And something I wish I knew a lot earlier just in terms of tracking food, it was annoying.
Scott (34:14):
I think a way around that is just tracking and then if you're not losing weight, just bringing your calories down because the discrepancy is maybe just throwing you off. If it's the case of this, there's so many other factors. Maybe you're just eating, maybe you're forgetting to track the pieces of food that you're eating that your kids had and all this kind of stuff. Maybe there's all this kind of stuff, but it's a very solid point. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (34:41):
If you're dialled in and really on top of it and still having issues, I don't know, might be, it helped me a little bit when I was starting out and I was like, oh, wow. Or this label is just wrong. It doesn't add up to the calories. It says what's going on. And then I learned the United States law where they can budge the numbers up to 20%. Go figure. So it is what it is. But yeah, so anyways, that's all I had for you. I'm taking enough time, but thanks again for doing all this and doing these calls,
Scott (35:08):
Man. Awesome to chat man, and super proud of your progress. Love you to, I sent through some photos, man. You have my email to send through. I'd like to just, if I can chime in or anything and even just see your progress, I think I probably still have the ones that you have when we first started. It'd be nice to see your progression from when we first started and the progress we made together. And then to build by Brock as well. It'd be cool to kind of patch up this timeline. But yeah, man, appreciate it. I'm just going to say a couple of things you can jump off. That's fine. And just close out, just end of the challenge stuff. But yeah, man. Awesome.
Brock Ashby (35:42):
Well, thank you for everything, Brock, and you've been great to me and a bunch of others. So thanks again, and we'll talk to you soon.
Scott (35:48):
Appreciate it, man. Thank you, man.
Brock Ashby (35:49):
All right. See you buddy.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Transforming your body as a parent can be very difficult. There are so many factors before we actually get into fitness that need to be discussed. Are you doing it on your own? Are you doing it with a partner? Are you doing it with family nearby or does your family live in a different country or are they too far to come and help out every now and then? Does your baby sleep well? Does your baby not sleep well? Are you working? Do you plan on going back to work? Are you not working? There are many questions to be asked and as a time, poor, tired, worried, maybe anxious parent. I know that transforming your body is often not the most important thing on your mind. It's raising a child. I'm very aware of that, but my goal of this podcast is for the parents that want to prioritise their health as much as possible whilst being a parent. It has its challenges, it has its obstacles, but there are ways that we can make a change. And in this podcast, that's what we're going to outline.
(01:11):
The first thing that I want to discuss is nutrition. I feel like this is the lowest hanging fruit. This is the thing that we can make the biggest difference with in terms of our physique, whether we want to lose weight, maintain weight, or build muscle. This is going to differ from the mother and the father. The father obviously isn't as essential for the baby's life if they're breastfeeding early on. If you're doing bottle feeding, then you can share roles and switch in and out. So I am going to be saying for the mothers, I would recommend this. For the fathers, I would recommend this. I do want to disclaim that I'm not a postnatal specialist or prenatal specialist or pregnancy specialist. I'm a personal trainer that has dealt with many parents, parents to be and at different levels like new parents and also I've trained people that have high school children or adult children that are doing their own thing by now.
(02:17):
So I've coached a lot of people through different phases of parenting and the reason that I wanted to do this podcast was because I'm a new parent as well. My daughter turned eight months old yesterday, and it's just such a joy being a father. I've really grown into it. It's been really cool to see her develop and grow and become her own person, develop her own personality and her character. And I'm absolutely loving it. And I want to help you through this podcast to achieve the body transformation or quality of life that you pursuing whilst being a parent at whatever phase that is. But I'm going to be obviously speaking a lot from personal experience because I'm going through it right now and so was my wife and a lot of my close friends are as well. And like I said in the intro, there are so many differences between children.
(03:19):
Our daughter has just got her first tooth. My friend's son has got, I don't know, maybe six teeth and he's only a couple of months older. That's different. Some are walking, some aren't walking, some started solids very early, some didn't. Every baby I'm finding out is different. There are probably similarities and trends as well, but they're very, very different even just by the way that they sleep, how I guess whingy they are. There's some babies that may cry a lot or maybe in a lot of discomfort and some babies are just super chill and they sleep all the time or they're just happy to be in your arms. Some need to move, some need to, or some have tummy issues. Alright, so there's so much difference within babies that is going to have a knock-on effect on the parents sleep-wise ability to have free time.
(04:21):
Are your parents involved? Are they nearby? There are so many factors, but I'm going to lay this out as clear as I can and try to be as precise and concise as I can. And I want to start with nutrition. The first thing that we have to outline are the nutritional priorities when it comes to the importance of what you're eating and drinking or consuming. And I want you to imagine a pyramid, just like a food pyramid and at the bottom for the most important thing that you have to focus on if you are looking to gain weight, maintain weight or lose weight is the energy balance the calories in versus calories out. How many calories are you consuming and how many calories are you expending? If you are a breastfeeding mother, you are burning more calories than you were before you were breastfeeding simply just from the act of breastfeeding and it's around 300 calories a day, so that impacts your amount of calorie that you're burning per day.
(05:33):
So that will also allow you to eat an extra 300 calories if you wanted to maintain weight and you were already maintaining your weight. But anyway, energy balance is the most important thing when we are looking at the nutritional priorities. So if you are unaware of how many calories you're consuming, the best way to get a handle on that is tracking your calories. Tracking your calories just builds this fundamental awareness of how many calories are in certain foods and of those calories, how much protein, carbohydrates, and fat are within that food that you're consuming. For example, I know off the top of my head that a banana is around 105 to 120 calories depending on the size. It's predominantly hydrates. There's not much protein and there's not much fat. I know that just because I've tracked calories for a very long time. I know that chicken thigh is fattier than chicken breast.
(06:27):
That's pretty common knowledge, but I know that through tracking chicken thigh has more calories in it than it does chicken breast. I know that an egg has around five grammes of fat in it, around seven grammes of protein. They're around 70 calories, 72 calories once again, depending on the egg. And I only know that through tracking calories. I know that a cup of broccoli is around 33 calories. A cup of pumpkin is also around about 30. And I only know these things once again through tracking calories. And there's a lot of people that stand up against tracking calories and say that it's obsessive and say it can ruin your mental health. And there are a certain population of people that it may happen that way. But for most people, tracking calories is a great fundamental awareness builder. It makes you aware of what you're consuming.
(07:22):
So if you aren't aware of how many calories you are consuming, then track your calories. And once you get a handle on that, you can say, wow, I'm consuming 2,500 calories a day. I never knew that. That's more than I thought. No wonder I'm not losing weight or man, I'm only eating 1500 calories a day. No wonder I feel like I can never gain weight because I'm just not eating enough food. It gives you this awareness and to calculate your calories that you're burning, I like to use a calorie calculator. There's no point trying to add, okay, this is my basal metabolic rate. This is how much I burn through my neat levels. This is how much I burn through processing food and digesting my food. This is how much I burn through my workouts and trying to add it all up. That's what calorie calculators were invented for.
(08:12):
If you don't know of any online, you can use mine. It'll be in the link in the description if you're watching this on YouTube. And it's usually in the description on all the other podcasting platforms as well. And that just gives you an awareness of what your maintenance calories would be. And once again, it's just a ballpark figure, so it gives you an idea. So if you put your calories in and then you start eating them and you're tracking your calories and you're taking on my advice and you're like, well, Brock, I'm still gaining weight. It was just a ballpark figure, okay, it's a really good guess, but it's just a ballpark figure. And also it can be quite confusing often when you're like, oh, am I sedentary or am I slightly active or am I extremely active or just moderately active? I'm unsure. So maybe you have chosen the wrong one to represent your activity level, but that gets shown once you eat those calories and you gain weight or lose weight or stay the same, the feedback is there and then you can make changes on that once you understand that.
(09:07):
So the biggest thing, the bottom part of this pyramid is energy balance. So this is the most important thing when we are looking at transforming our body as an individual. But today we're talking about as a parent, the next thing, the next most important thing, the next layer of the pyramid is your macronutrients, and that is what those initial calories that we talked about just before are made up of fat, carbohydrates or protein. And this is the next most important thing because this is how we in terms of body transformation, can determine how fueled we are, how satiated we are, if we are creating any deficiencies within ourself, if we have a high protein diet to help maintain our muscle mass, these are the things that we need to be aware of. So I'm just going to rattle off some numbers for you and you can take some notes, you can write it down so that you as a parent can understand the macros.
(10:12):
So for protein, we want a really good place to start is just how much you weigh in KG and just doubling it. That is the amount of protein you should be having per day. That's just a good place to start. So for me, I'm around 90 kilos. I'm a bit less now because I'm in a calorie deficit, but I'm around 90 kilos. So I would eat around 180 grammes of protein per day. If you weighed 70 kilos, there would be 140 grammes of protein per day. This is a great place to start. If you work with the imperial system and you weigh yourself in pounds, maybe you're from America, then you just look at your weights and pounds and that is how much protein you should have per day. If you weigh 200 pounds, you're having 200 grammes of protein per day. If you weigh 150 pounds, you're having 150 grammes of protein per day.
(11:00):
They're slightly different numbers because technically one kg is 2.25 pounds, but if you're just doubling it, it's easier. And as a parent, we're a bit time short. We just want something a little bit faster to sort out, so just double it. If it's pounds, keep it the same. So that's your protein sorted. The next thing we want to sort out is our fat, and I like to sit around 0.7 to 0.8 grammes of fat per gramme of sorry, per kg of body weight. So if you weigh 90 kilos, well, I'm going to have to do this live 90 times 0.8, just doing it on my laptop in front of me. That is 72. So you'd have 72 grammes. If you weigh a hundred kilos, it'll be 80 grammes. That is a minimal spot that we want to be at when we are looking at our fat intake.
(11:53):
It is very calorically expensive. So if we are looking at trying to lose weight, we usually put fat down at the lower end, but ultimately it's just what is sustainable for you and what you enjoy When you are eating the same calories with carbohydrates, they just make up your remainder of calories. So you sort out your protein, you sort out your fat, and then you're like, Hey, the rest of my calories are just carbohydrates, and they act as your fuel. So now you have your calories sorted and your macronutrients sorted, and then you just track your calories to make sure that you hit these numbers. I wouldn't be doing a service to anyone if I didn't acknowledge the fact that tracking your calories can be a pain in the ass, especially if you're a mother, you're running around and this is me, assuming that you're at home with the baby.
(12:49):
This is just our situation, my wife and I. But if the mother is at home running around breastfeeding, putting them to bed, waking them up, cleaning them, dressing them, doing all that kind of stuff, and they're finally down and they're finally asleep, and then you're like, oh, I need a truck, my calories. Maybe that three minutes is just three minutes that you just don't have. So what is something that we can go by if we're not going to track calories? Look, that's difficult because the less detailed we become, the less exact we can control the results. There's a quote that I always quote, but what is measured can be progressed. So the less that we measure. So if we're not measuring calories and we're not measuring protein fats and carbs, it's very hard to say, oh, that's why I'm gaining weight or that's why I'm losing weight, because there's nothing actually being tracked.
(13:45):
So do your best to track calories and track protein and fats and carbs, that is very important. One thing that you can do to fall back on that is just track your protein and if you hit your protein target, that's cool, and then you just try and hit your calorie target as well, and then your fats and carbs can just sip where they may. Maybe that's a high fat diet and low carb on one day and maybe it's a high carb diet and a low fat one day. But the research is pretty clear that if our calories and our protein target are matched, it doesn't really matter if we have high fats or high carbs or low fat or low carbs. As long as our protein and calories are the same, the body transformation is going to be pretty similar. It just really depends on what feels best for you.
(14:34):
I've trained people and I've found that quite a lot of the females that I've trained actually operate better on a higher fat diet with slightly lower carbohydrates and men are kind of the opposite. That's just what I've found through anecdotal experience. I don't have any research to back that up. That's just what I've found through training thousands of people. That's just the picture that has been painted through the transformations that I've achieved. So that is a way to step down from tracking everything. Just track your protein, track your calories. If you wanted to step down even further than that and get even a bit more vague, what you could do is just look at having a serving of protein in every single meal and reducing the amounts of processed foods that you're having because then those foods are going to be more nutrient dense, they're going to be more satiating, and that's going to prevent us from overeating, which is generally the problem with new parents. People have kids and they gain weight.
(15:37):
That's the common thing. It's just what happens. You have this person to look after and often the care that is a hundred percent directed at you and your husband or your wife or your partner or whoever you've had this child with, that energy has to get divided by whatever division that seems to be depending on how chill or how hard your baby is to raise. So it's very difficult. It's very difficult, but yeah, it is what it is. You have to kind of make do with your situation and just be kind of as positive as you can be, right with the energy that you have left for yourself and for your family. So macronutrients covered. The next thing is vitamins and minerals or micronutrients. So this is the kind of smaller step up from the pyramid. This is the third layer from the bottom, and that is why I was like, have a serving of protein with every meal and then try to reduce the processed foods that you're consuming.
(16:50):
So that means you're going to have low processed or unprocessed foods, which is fruit, vegetables, and meat. And then there are other things like milk and yoghourt that are in there as well. They are very awesome sources of nutrition, very nutrient dense, and they are full of micronutrients to help support our body for all the processes that we need. And if we are just going to be consuming rubbish food, but we are having the right amounts of calories and protein, you might get the body transformation, but long-term. And then also, especially for mothers that are breastfeeding, you want to be nourishing your body with every mineral, every vitamin that you can through nutrition, there are supplements that you may be taking, but consuming them through food is always going to be a great source. So micronutrients is the next one up after that. So even smaller towards the top of the pyramid, this is the second to last one, we have meal timing and frequency.
(17:59):
Now this is near the top because it's not that important. If you have six meals or three meals, ultimately it has the same impact for fat loss or for muscle building. What really matters is what's at the bottom of the pyramid, which is energy balance, calories in versus calories out. This is the most important thing. So if you have six meals of 2,500 calories versus three meals of 2,500 calories, it's going to be exactly the same. It's going to be processed the same. You're going to lose the same amount of weight or gain the same amount of weight or maintain the same weight. It's all the same, but I will caveat that with you may feel different. For example, I hate eating lots of small meals throughout the day. It's just frustrating. I don't get this feeling of satisfaction. I don't get this feeling of, oh, I'm so full, this feels great.
(18:52):
I'm frustrated. I feel like a cow grazing on grass that just can't eat enough. I feel ravenous. But if I sit down and have a big meal, I absolutely love it and I feel way, way, way better for it. Even right now while I'm cutting, I'm in a calorie deficit. I'm having three big meals in a day as opposed to a meal and a snack and then a meal and then a snack, and then a meal and then dessert. That frustrates the hell out of me. That's just me. There is no right or wrong this situation, but what feels better for me is to have more satisfying meals where I get that feeling of, oh man, that was so good. Now I'm good. I'm good for three or four hours, I'm just going to do my work. And then I'll come back later on when I feel hungry again.
(19:35):
But that's just how I feel. And it just depends on how you feel as well. If you don't want to eat until midday, that's completely fine. You don't have to. Once again, this comes down to the child. As a parent or as a father, when are you able to eat? Who knows? It really depends. Sometimes you can just sit down and eat with children depending on what age they are and how they're able to be around food and stuff. With us, we're not really there yet. We're kind of there, but kind of not there at the same time. So it's kind of like we're just eating when we can. We're having late dinners at the moment because our daughter loves to just be awake. She's not the biggest fan of sleeping. For example, last night I got home around seven o'clock, our daughter was being put down and then she kind of woke up 45 minutes after she was meant to be asleep for the night, which is not uncommon for her.
(20:40):
And then she woke up and then she took another 45 minutes to settle. So we ended up having dinner at 8:30 PM When we were with that child, we were having dinner at 5:00 PM then we were in bed by nine asleep. We had a awesome sleep schedule that was like we were feeling great. We were sleeping in adequate amounts of hours and feeling good, but now it's very different. We're having dinner very late. And then after having dinner that late last night, I wasn't tired. La, la, la, la, la. It kind of has this knock on effect. So meal timing is something that we would like to plan as much as possible, but sometimes it just doesn't happen. Can we have our breakfast at nine o'clock every morning? Probably not. But that's something that is empowering to know because now you know don't have to have a specific meal at 10:00 AM and if you miss it, you're a bad person and you need to take this guilt around all day and have this anxiety of, oh, I ate too late.
(21:36):
Maybe I'm going to gain weight. Oh, I had carbohydrates at 10:00 PM I'm a bad person. We don't need to think like that. Meal frequency, whenever you have your meals, it doesn't matter. It might impact how much you weigh the next morning. I've been weighing in every morning for or most mornings for my fat loss journey that I'm doing the Built by Brock. We challenge at the moment and I'm having such late dinners that when I wake up and even after I go to the bathroom, I might take a leak or if I'm lucky enough, I'll do a number two because that will make me lose more weight when I weigh in.
(22:14):
I'm eating so late that sometimes that doesn't happen and I'm, I'm not losing as much weight. And I think that if I had, obviously if I had a 5:00 PM dinner and then just went to sleep, I would have all that time to digest everything. But I'm having really carb heavy dinners late at night because I like that satiating hit of food. Like, ah, I'm having that late at night and it's still in my system. So I'm retaining a lot of water when I weigh in. So I'm actually probably weighing heavier than I technically am. Maybe I'm making excuses for my lack of calorie deficit, but it's more so just that I'm still retaining water from the carbohydrates that I had on the night before. I'm almost like carb loading before I go to sleep. So it will impact your weigh-ins if you're weighing yourself every morning.
(23:00):
But meal timing and meal frequency doesn't really matter in the large scale of things. If you want to skip breakfast and start at 12:00 PM go ahead, be my guest. If you don't want to eat until 3:00 PM be my guest. If you want to wake up and you're absolutely starving, you want to eat at 5:00 AM that's also really cool. It just really depends on what you want to do and that's why it's empowering to know this. The last point of the pyramid right at the top is supplements. A K, A, it doesn't really matter. This is the least important thing that you could be worrying about when transforming your body as a parent. Your creatine, your fish oil, your caffeine, these things, they're not the biggest deal. The bang for buck things are looking at how many calories you're consuming versus how much you're burning. What are those calories made up of?
(23:56):
And then within those fats, carbs, and proteins, what micronutrients are you also consuming? Are you consuming a lot of salad or are you not consuming fruit and vegetables or are you not? Because you'd probably feel better if you would and you'd probably have more fibre and feel more full if you were consuming more fruits and veggies and micronutrients, right? Supplements. Look creatine's awesome. I'll always stand by creatine until the research tells me not to. But creatine monohydrate is a game changer if you want to increase in strength, increase in recovery, potential increase in cognitive function. And also there was some research on creatine helping when you are sleep deprived. So for the parents out there, maybe creatine is something you need to consider, but five grammes a day is all you need. I'm a big fan of that. Fish oil potentially is something you could look at if you're not having seafood once to twice per week.
(24:50):
And caffeine, I love it. There's a big coffee if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see if you're not, you can just appreciate that. I have, there's a very large coffee that I got before this podcast so I don't fall asleep because I didn't sleep very well last night. But caffeine is a bit of a game changer. Caffeine suppresses appetite. So right now while I'm pursuing fat loss, it is my best friend. I'm having two coffees before breakfast because I'm waking up depending on how I sleep and depending on our daughter, but our wife, my wife usually looks after her sleep throughout the night so I can be fresh for work. But I am waking up at 5:00 AM or 6:00 AM I went through a phase where there was a couple of four 40 fives in there. I dunno what I was doing, but I have a couple of coffees to push my breakfast back to about nine or 10:00 AM So I'm fasting for about five hours after waking up three to five hours I would say.
(25:57):
And that just helps me to push my calories back and helps me consume less calories while I'm trying to lose weight. Otherwise, I used to have a smoothie at like 6:00 AM and it was like 1200 calories. So then by the time it's 10 o'clock and I'm about to jump into my next meal, I've probably already had almost 2000 calories and it's 10 o'clock in the morning. So while I'm trying to lose weight and minimise my calories, I'm skipping that big smoothie in the morning and I've substituted that for yoghourt, which is much lower in calories now my breakfast is around seven, 800 calories as opposed to 1200. That's helping me lose weight. So that is one effect of caffeine. I have it in the form of coffee, I like black coffee, have it in the morning. I feel great. It kind of picks me up as well.
(26:42):
I do the taste and we have a coffee machine at home, so I usually just make it while my daughter and my wife are asleep and I do some work before they wake up and that kind of keeps my mind busy as well. But caffeine does suppress your appetite and it also does increase your performance if you are looking at training whilst you're a parent and lifting weights or doing whatever you do. But if you want to increase your performance, caffeine has so much research behind it, it is the dominant ingredient in pre-workouts that is having the most effect on your performance. If you're feeling an effect with the pre-workout that you're taking, I feel enough with coffee you can take caffeine pills, but I remember I bought some once, but I was like, what am I doing here? Why am I buying pills when I can just drink this awesome drink that tastes delicious?
(27:37):
So coffee is a great thing. I like to use it to push my breakfast back in the morning and it would be a recommendation for you to do so as well if you're looking at reducing your calorie intake as a parent. A couple more things that I want to cover with nutrition and parenting are other options that may be able to help you stick to a healthy diet. I option number one could be a meal prep service. Our family or my wife's family, my sister-in-Law, my brother-in-Law or in Macedonia, my bjo, which I learned last week, thank you to Bob. They're using my Muscle chef and it's helping them a lot. And once again, this depends on the children that you're bringing up or the child that you're bringing up. They have two kids, which is as we're discovering harder than raising one kid or I shouldn't use the word harder, I guess I should say more challenging because it's also beautiful raising children as well. It's such a great feeling and a great fulfilment, but it is challenging. And they are using a meal prep service called My Muscle Chef, which is based here in Australia, and they're finding that it's helping a lot. And the great thing about this is they're nutrient dense foods and depending on the meal prep service that you use, because there are a lot, you can get really nutrient dense foods, you can get vegetables with lean meats and often they have high protein, low calorie ideas, which is really cool.
(29:22):
They're including vegetables that you probably don't have time to cook. They're also including different various cuts of protein that you may not be able to consume. And I think if you're gluten-free or if you're vegan or if you're this or that, they are able to make changes like most meal prep delivery services do that. So it's a great option. Obviously, I'm not saying that it's cheap because also you've had a kid, expenses have gone up because you're raising a child. But if you're looking at making sure that you're consuming these nutrient dense foods and you want to feel good, often nutrition is the lowest hanging fruit that we can impact because the truth is we have to eat. And meal prep services can be a great way for you to get frequent meals in because sometimes you just don't eat because maybe there's nothing in the fridge that you want to eat or you haven't had time to prepare or cook something or it's just like everything that you have is an appetising.
(30:20):
But meal prep services are a great option and I would recommend them. I've had them before, not currently as a father, but I've had them before just as a convenience thing previously, and it's so easy you just chuck them in the microwave, bang, and then you're eating eight minutes later, which is much easier. And once again, this depends on your child and how much time they demand of you. But sometimes it's hard to cook rice, cook pasta, cook some protein, cooks some vegetables, or even just have things prepared. Or even going grocery shopping can be a huge mission. It depends on your child. Once again, maybe they just absolutely lose it as soon as you leave the house or maybe the father's looking after them while you're sleeping or maybe you are going to the gym because this is your only time to gym and then he has to do groceries and they just miss their mom and they're just like bawling their eyes out.
(31:11):
Things can be so hard as a parent, but things can also be easy. It depends on your child once again. So meal prep services can be a great way to reduce the chances of you not succeeding in your diet. It's already there. Yes, you're paying probably more than you would if you were going grocery shopping, but grocery shopping ain't cheap, mate. Grocery shopping is not cheap at the moment. Alright, moving on. One thing, and this is maybe not something that you ask of your friends or your family, but if your family and friends could do anything for you, and this is one thing that I learned from Jacqueline Orwell as well who I had on the podcast previously. You can check out our episode somewhere, maybe I'll put the card in here. I've never done a card on YouTube, but you can put it here I think in the top right corner.
(32:05):
Or maybe I'll point to this corner as well, maybe it'll be here. But we did a podcast and she mentioned that one of the best things that people can do for you is to cook for you. And she said that to me. That was before I had my daughter, man, eight months ago. It was probably like nine months ago. She said that to me and I was like, yeah, cool. But now I really appreciate that. My wife's parents brought us some food multiple times and it has been a time saver and a lifesaver just into the fridge, reheat some food. My wife likes to have some things cold. Whatever you do, whatever floats your bone, it's cool, but you just go into the fridge, heat it up and you're good. That's what I would do. And we had roast vegetables, we had cuts of meat, cuts of seafood. We were very spoiled for choice. Seafood pasta, so delicious spaghetti bolognese. I was like, man, this is, we would never, well, because my wife's looking after the daughter most of the time I'm not the best cook, I'll be honest.
(33:11):
So if I make any of that food, it's going to be overcooked or undercooked or the sauce is going to be terrible. It's probably not going to be salty enough. It's probably going to be too much pepper. There's probably going to be too much salt. There's going to be so many things that I'm going to screw up. So if your friends offer or your family offer, is there anything that we can do for you? If you don't have enough, you don't have shame and you shouldn't because it's your friends or family, ask them to just bring some food. We've also had friends do it as well, and it's such a game changer for those few days or for that week, depending on how much food you get. You also have to keep in mind that you have to eat it or else you just feel like people give you so much food and you can't eat it. So it's good to give them a recommendation of how much, but then you feel like, okay, you don't want to be like, Hey, can I have three sirloin steaks, four salmon fillets ?
(34:10):
If you could roast up 20 potatoes, then you just sound like a dickhead. But having food in the fridge really does make a game changing effect for your life. Next, I want to move on to training. I hit nutrition first because that's the lowest hanging fruit training as a parent, depending on your child is a luxury. Not everyone has the opportunity to train for us. For my wife and I and our daughter, it's very challenging for my wife to train and work out because my daughter absolutely adores my wife, her mother, she wants to be around her all the time. When she wakes up, I take her for as long as possible before she wants mom, and that usually lasts about an hour. Some days I've stretched it to an hour and a half. Some days it's like 30 minutes, but she just really wants to be with her mom.
(35:09):
So for us, for my wife to get a workout in, it's very challenging first thing in the morning. First of all, because my daughter doesn't sleep very well throughout the night. So my wife is often very, very sleep deprived, hasn't slept much. So that's why I take my daughter in the morning so that she can get an extra hour, hour and a half while I play. And then I also get time with my daughter before I go to work and record this. So it's hard for her to get a workout. And then because an hour is not enough to walk to the gym, train and then come back and then be there for our daughter, she just doesn't want to have it. She won't have it. So we find alternative times for her to train. And it's challenging. Some days she's trained once a week, some days zero times per week on a really, really solid week, she'll hit three in a week and it is getting better over time as her daughter's, I don't know if you could say getting better at sleeping, but you could say that she's getting older.
(36:20):
That's a guarantee. But it is getting slightly better. So my wife is like, you could say slightly getting in more workouts, but nutrition is always something that you can make the most of because you have to eat every day. But with training it can be difficult. We've talked to a mother and she's training almost every day and it's just good on you, good on you, mate. You can't say anything else. You can't get jealous. You can't wish you were them because you can't change your situation. You just have to make the most of your situation. And the way that my wife and I stay so positive is obviously because we look at our daughter and we're just fall in love, but it could be much worse. Oh no, we're sleeping five hours a night. Could be four. I think this is the best way, and this is just outside of parenting, just the rule in life that you can use to keep your perspective positive, you can say could be worse.
(37:28):
You know what I mean? Could be worse. Oh no, I only trained 45 minutes today. It could have been half an hour. Oh no, I only trained half an hour. I could have not worked out today. You know what I mean? Oh no, our daughter's not sleeping. But hey, our daughter has not been sick. She hasn't been to emergency hospital. That's a lie. But I'm just creating some scenarios for you to stay positive. And these are ways to kind of hack your way into being positive. Because often, and parents may admit this or not, I'm not afraid not to can be very difficult. So I think finding ways to gamify or just change your perspective into a positive one is a really important way to stay happy and stay fulfilled and keep your eye on the prize, which is raising a great child. So with training, it really does just depend on your baby.
(38:28):
We have had to change gyms. So we went to a gym, which was awesome. It was part of a RSL, shout out to North's Fitness. It was part of a RSL, which had club rooms and pokies and all that kind of stuff, and a restaurant. So they had a lot of money, they had business and that meant the gym was always being like when we first signed up, it was going through a renovation. So a week or two after we signed up, we had a full new gym. It had awesome seated row handles, lap pull down handles. It had new flooring, it had a hip thrust machine, it had assisted pull up machines. It had a cross training area where we could do walking lunges. Then it had a private room where they do classes where you could stretch or do core and there was heaps of space, heaps of cables.
(39:20):
There was three cable machines, a couple of leg press machines. It was about three squat racks. It was a really awesome gym. But we had to sacrifice that to go to a different gym, which isn't as good and very small because it's a nine minute walk from our house. And okay, we're at a shittier gym, but it's convenient. So it's easier for my wife to walk down and go to the gym and then walk back. It's much faster. So we can walk nine minutes, train for 45 minutes to 60 minutes walk nine minutes back maximum. That's an hour 20 and that's solid if you are to train for an hour. But often it's less than that, but whatever, stay positive. So we've had to make that change. And also I opened up a gym, a personal training studio. So I train at the team Rock bury Body quarters most of the time, and we have trained here as a family, but also it kind of just stresses us out if we are training here.
(40:27):
And then we have to entertain our daughter between sets, especially because she, like I said, she loves her mother, so she just wants to be on her all the time. So training does depend on what your baby or child will allow. And I know that there's a theory of you just help make them go along with your life and we're all for that as well. We do whatever we want and she just comes along. But then there's a point where it's just like maybe there's a better way to do this. And that's what we're figuring out along the way. So with training, I can't really give any specific individual examples apart from ours. My training hasn't really changed and I'm still managed to be at jujitsu three times a week doing five workouts, and that's a very heavy training plan as a dad. And I know that not many dads can.
(41:17):
I work in a gym. I'm an online personal trainer, like training is a centrepiece of my life. I have to keep training. It's great for my mental health, I really enjoy it. I'm learning every time I'm doing it. It's awesome. But I know that many dads will struggle to, if you work a nine to five, you wake up, you look after the kids, you go straight to work, and then you finish work at five, you go to the gym, you get there five 30, you train till seven, you go home, that's your day done. That's very hard to do that five times a week and then add in jiu-jitsu on top of that. When do you do that in your lunch break? Almost impossible. So do what you can. I will say a great minimum to try to pursue is three times per week. And with that three times per week, that's full body training.
(42:05):
So I want you to look at six exercises in this workout and you have to choose an exercise for each of these muscle groups. And this goes for a mother or a father, it doesn't matter. Full body training is an efficient way to train and it's going to help you maintain muscle mass, stay mobile, stay functional, stay fun, stay fit as a parent. And I think it's a good baseline to try and maintain. And I would say this is my minimum and that's three times a week. So an exercise. So there's six planes of movement or yeah, so we have horizontal push, which is like let's just say chest, we have vertical push. I'm doing the actions. So if you're only listening to this, you're missing out. So make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel, the Bit with Brock podcast, vertical push, which is shoulders, that's two exercises.
(43:11):
And then you want to do a horizontal pull, which is like rows. So any row seated row bent over row, single arm dumbbell row, choose a row. And then you have vertical pull, which is like any pull down or pull up type of movement. And then so that's an upper body cupboard if we're just looking at hitting the basics, four exercises you've hit every way that your body can move. Now with legs, lower body, you do a quad dominant exercise and a hip dominant exercise. So your quad dominant exercise could be like a leg press, a leg extension, a squat, a split squat, a lunge, your hip dominant exercise could be a deadlift, a Romanian deadlift, it could be a leg curl, it could be a back extension, it could be a good morning. Those are the options that if you hit those one exercise for those each time you train every time a different exercise.
(44:09):
Awesome. That is awesome. You take those close to failure, six exercises in a workout. You do three to four sets of each. That's only going to take you about an hour, potentially 45 minutes. You do that three times a week. That's a awesome foundation to maintain. I'll confidently say you could definitely build muscle on that if you're eating enough calories and if you're doing everything right, that is a great way to train as a busy parent that can only train three times per week. I will add this in. You can also look at training at home. So I took my adjustable dumbbells that were here in the gym back home for my wife to train upper body with when she couldn't make the gym. It's happened every now and then. It is difficult to train at our small apartment, but she's got it done a couple of times and it's helped out.
(44:57):
And if you find it easier as a parent, as a mother or as a father to train at home, then go for it. I recommend getting adjustable dumbbells, adjustable benches and resistance bands. This is the built by Brock setup. So built by Brock is my subscription programme. And you get new workouts every four weeks and you get weekly live coaching calls every week. You get nutrition advice, you get programmes that are tailored not individually to you, but individually to your membership that you sign up to. So built by broke men at home, men at the gym, women at home, women at the gym. So you have different kind of memberships and your programme is tailored to that person in that environment that they train in. So if you're training at home, you take out the commute to the gym, you take out the commute back from the gym, that's pretty much what we're cutting out.
(45:52):
And now as soon as your baby goes asleep, you could go bang straight into the lounge or straight into the garage, whatever situation that you have and go and work out. And that could be the difference between you making the session and not making a session. So if you are really struggling to get to the gym, maybe you should potentially look at building a gym in your, and I don't mean building a gym, like paying for a lease and doing this and that. I just mean getting a garage gym to build the body quarters. I got a hold of quite a lot of gym equipment and then I sold it and I was selling it to a lot of dads that were picking up gym equipment that had just had kids and were like, oh, me and my wife training in the garage now. Or we train in the basement now and I've got a squat rack and I got some dumbbells and I was selling dumbbells. I was even selling flooring mats because I ordered too many for the gym.
(46:46):
Expensive problem. So I was selling them and yeah, they were dads that were training at home because it was too hard to justify going to the gym. And I completely understand, one guy had three kids and I was like, mate, fair play. Of course, why not? You can still train at home. It's such a good option. So if you are really struggling to get to the gym, look at that. Or potentially you could look at doing a hybrid situation where I have a few clients in built by Brock that do three gym workouts and then two at home because that's just the way it works with them being a mother. So some days they're looking after the kids, so when they put them down they'll train. But then other days when the kid's at daycare, then they will be able to go to the gym.
(47:30):
So they have a hybrid set up and that can work for you as well. It really just depends on what you want to do. And this leads me to the last question around training, which is should you change gyms to be closer to home? That is one thing that we sacrificed going to a better gym for a gym that's close to home and still getting in, I guess just as good workouts, but just in a not as motivating or stimulating environment. So that is one thing that you could ask yourself. Most people do just go to the closest gym to their home anyway, but if you're not and you're prioritising a really awesome gym, maybe you look at getting something closer so it's more realistic that you get more frequent gym sessions in because going to this nice fancy gym and getting two workouts in or going to one that's closer to home and getting four in and the workouts are pretty much the same, it's just a different environment.
(48:27):
I think you should just go for the four workouts at the shitty gym. It just makes sense. Take it for the teammate. Lastly, with training, I want to talk about walking and the importance of it, and that is probably the lowest hanging fruit that you can do for your training, especially with mothers. Like let's say you're at home, you're looking after your child, one thing that you can usually do, obviously if you have a caesarean, this does impact it and people have things that happen to their hips as they give birth naturally and other obstacles that they may potentially have. But what you can do as a mother and as a father and even as a family, it's really nice to do is just go for a walk. The importance of walking I think is so overlooked and underrated. It seems too easy to do that.
(49:15):
It has no impact, but it actually has the biggest impact on how many calories we burn throughout the day. And if you are unaware of how to calculate or if you're unaware of the science behind how many calories we burn per day, go back and listen to the previous podcast. Maybe I'll do another one of those card things and put it on YouTube so you can click on it or just go back, stop this podcast, go back to the previous one. And I explained for probably 30 to 40 minutes the science of burning calories so you can understand it. But our walking or our neat levels are responsible for 20% of the amount of calories that we burn, 20%, the biggest portion, 60% is our basal metabolic rate, which we really can't change. It's made up of our height, our weight, our age, and our sex.
(50:11):
We can't really change that apart from losing weight. And then even when we do lose a little bit of weight, it doesn't make the biggest difference. It makes a little difference, but not as much. What makes the biggest difference is our neat levels. If we have high levels of neat or non-planned exercise activity thermogenesis, that really drives up the amount of calories that we burn throughout the day. If we have a person that does 6,000 steps versus 15,000 steps per day, that person is going to be much leaner than that person or that person is going to eat much more than the 6,000 person because they are just burning so much more calories. So they're either going to be leaner because they're in a larger calorie deficit or they're going to be eating more and have a stronger metabolism because they burn more calories throughout the day.
(50:58):
So it's such an overlooked thing. I would look at walking, especially if you're a mom that just can't find the time to train. It's generally easier this day and age to find a place to walk. You can go to a park, you can put them in the pram and walk. You can get them to sleep, put them in the pram and walk, or you can put them in the carrier and walk if they're asleep, make them sleep in the carrier and then keep walking. These are the tricks that we use as parents, and I say we, but I pretty much mean my wife that she uses throughout the day to get her steps up to be physically active, to get some sunshine. It's really nice time for her and our daughter as well to be outside. Our baby loves being outside. She went to the beach yesterday and swam for the first time in puddles in the shallow portion of the beach, and my wife said she was absolutely loving it.
(51:53):
And generally why would a child not like outside? It's crazy. But then being inside on screens. But yeah, outside if you can, walking is such a steal. It's so easy to do and it's underrated and it can help you lose body fat because it's the biggest thing that we can move in terms of our physical activity to burn more calories. It's the biggest thing that we can manipulate and control. Our neat levels are around about 20% of the amounts of calories that we burn throughout the day. Our workouts are only five to 10%, five to 10%. So our walking is literally, literally double the amount responsible for burning calories. Then our workouts. So when you look at it like that, it makes sense. So let's zoom out a little bit more like our walking and our fidgeting and our scratching our hair, tying our shoe laces, doing the washing, washing the dishes.
(52:59):
Those are our neat levels. Non-planned exercise, that stuff burns more calories. If you sleep eight hours a day, it's pretty much what you do for the rest of the 16 hours. That's your neat levels, but your workouts only like 45 minutes to one hour of what you do today. Of course, it's not going to be as big as your neat levels. So look at it like that. Walking as underrated, walk as much as you can. It's great for you, not only physically, but also mentally to be outside. Get some sunlight on your skin. Hopefully you don't live in the UK where it's always grey, but yeah, get some sun on your skin. It's like, man, the summer is turning up here in Sydney. It's getting really warm, so my wife's making the most of it and on the weekend, tomorrow and Sunday, it's going to be really hot too, so planning to get some sunshine in.
(53:46):
Lastly, so that is training. If you have any other questions, put them in the comments or send me an email team@teambrookeashbury.com around training when being a parent. The last thing I want to touch on, which is not really advice because you can't really give advice in this situation, but it is to sleep when you can and you can't give specific sleep advice because babies sleep, some sleep terribly, some sleep very well, some sleep somewhere in between. We have a daughter that doesn't sleep very well, so our sleep is quite limited. My wife's is definitely more impaired or impacted than mine, but our daughter isn't the best sleeper, so the best advice I can give her sleep when you can, and this is easier said than done because if your baby's asleep, it's like, okay, just go to sleep. But maybe you haven't winded down for the day and you really like that time.
(54:46):
Maybe you haven't caught up with your spouse and you really love doing that. Maybe you haven't done as much work as you need to do. So now that the baby's asleep, you finally have to do that work. But I will say a lot of parents, and maybe this is just my circle or what I'm aware of or what I've seen, what content I've consumed are consuming just too much content, doom crawling, not really achieving much when they would be better off sleeping. And not only does that help with your performance, not only does it help with your hunger levels being suppressed and your likelihood to overeat being lower, it also helps you with your happiness. If you're sleep deprived on top of all the other things that are going on with parenting, the stresses that you have or just within life, you mix in tired on top of that, and it's just going to get exponentially worse.
(55:43):
And as a parent, it's very hard to avoid being tired. It's kind of like, of course, peanut butter and jelly parenting and tiredness or sleep deprivation, but sleep when you can. That's just my best advice. Are you going to regret scrolling for 20 minutes? Probably not, but will you regret how shitty you feel throughout the day? Most probably. And it's hard to see that at the time because you're consuming it. Your brain cells and going crazy. Your dopamine things are going crazy and you are scrolling and you're like, oh, this is really cool. But then you look at it and it's like midnight and you could have slipped for the last one hour, but you've just been up doing that. I think your time could have been invested smarter than that, than just scrolling or just watching TV or something like that. I get it. If you're unwinding and catching up with people and have to do things, if you don't have to do it, if you are literally just escaping your reality, just go to sleep. You'll feel much better for it. And I'm going to leave the podcast there. That was episode number 44 of the Better with Brock Podcast. Thank you very much for listening.
(56:50):
Episode number 45 will be coming out next week as well. Looking forward to getting more guests on growing the podcast. Look, I don't monetize or run ads on this podcast. All I ask is that you subscribe to the channel, leave a comment, leave a positive review. That's all I ask and return for this awesome podcast, giving you some great free content. I appreciate it. I hope from you or you'll hear from me in week. See you. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 43 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about calorie expenditure or burning calories. We're going to define what it is, how it happens, and then the considerations we have to think of when we're taking burning calories into the equation of transforming your body.
(00:24):
The first thing we need to discuss is how we actually burn calories. And the way that we do that comes through four different things, four different ways, four different compartments, and the first one is the most significant, which is your BMR, which stands for your basal metabolic rate, and that is how many calories you would burn if you laid on the couch watching Netflix, absolutely chilling, doing nothing, not getting up, just chilling there. You could look at it like being in a coma and hospital, just literally existing, just being alive. Your basal metabolic rate is the amount of calories that you burn just to keep alive, all the processes that you need, your heart to beat, your brain to function, blood to be pumping around your body, all the things that goes on in your body, keeping the lights on, that's your basal metabolic rate, and that's responsible for approximately 60% of the calories that you burn throughout the day.
(01:28):
And that baffles a lot of people because we think we burn all our calories in the gym. We burn all our calories when we go for a run, but the biggest portion of calories that we burn throughout the day is actually just from existing, just from being alive. I want you to take that knowledge on board. The second most significant way that we burn calories is something called your neat levels. NEAT stands for non-planned. That's the NE stands for Exercise Activity thermogenesis, neat non-Planned exercise activity thermogenesis, and that is your non-planned exercise. That's the stuff that you do without even thinking. That's your walking, that's your fidgeting, that's your touching your hair, that's your tapping your hand on the table, that's your wiggling, your knee at the table when you're sitting there nervously or just sitting there in general, everyone has different things that they do.
(02:28):
I use my hands a lot when I talk, so if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see sometimes when I talk and especially when I get really into things, I start throwing my hands out, back and forward or pointing to the left, pointing to the right, listing things with my fingers. This is neat levels at play, the non-planned exercise, and there's a debate out there that says is going for a walk neat levels because you're actually planning to do it, and I see where they're coming from. I think we're fighting over stuff that doesn't really matter. If you're saying, oh, well, that's actually not neat because you plan to do that, it still sits in the basket of physical activity. When we look at burning calories, which I'll break down later on, so that's your neat levels, and they're responsible for around 20% of the calories that we burn.
(03:18):
And then we have EAT levels, which is exercise activity thermogenesis, so it's the same acronym except non-Planned is in front of neat. So exercise activity, activity thermogenesis is your planned exercise we could call it to make it more obvious. Planned exercise activity thermogenesis. So there are things that you're going to do. You're going to go to the gym three times a week. You're going to go to the gym five times a week. You're going to go for a run every Monday, Thursday. You know that you've got jiujitsu class on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. This is your planned exercise, and that also burns calories that fits into your calorie expenditure. However, it's not as significant as your non-planned or your BMR. It's responsible for around five to 10%. Obviously, this depends on how much you train. If you're a professional athlete and you spend majority of your day training, stretching, doing yoga, recovering, you're probably going to have a higher percentage than five to 10%. It could creep up to 15 to 20 because you're so physically active. But most of us have jobs. We have lives that we have to live. We're not 100% full-time athletes dedicated to physical activity. So it generally will sit around that five to 10% and for people that are completely sedentary, don't even work out. Lift weights, play sport, have physical activity, hobbies, it's probably going to be more towards the lower end of the spectrum.
(04:47):
The last portion is something called TEF, the thermic effect of food, and that is the calories that we burn when we're breaking down food into our digestive system. So that obviously costs energy. That is our calorie expenditure, and this increases, it's around five to 10% as well. It increases as we have a high protein diet because protein is more taxing on the digestive system to process. So if we are having a high protein diet, it's going to be on the higher end than if it wasn't, just because it's harder to process as I just said. So those are the four components. Once again, quickly summarising BMR we have, which is your basal metabolic rate, responsible for around 60%. We have your NEAT levels, which stands for non-planned exercise activity thermogenesis, which is around 15 to 20% of your calorie expenditure. We then have our planned exercise activity, thermogenesis, eat or eat like I just said, and that is responsible for five to 10%.
(05:50):
We then have the thermic effect of food, which is the amount of calories it costs for us to break down calories, and that is another five to 10%. So somewhere within that range. Everyone is different, but you're going to reach a hundred percent of the amount of calories that you burn. The biggest portion from just existing, just being alive, just waking up, getting through the day and finishing at your burning calories. But on top of that, you have your non-planned exercise and everyone has that to varying degrees. And then we have our planned exercise. Obviously people that are into sport athletes or people that do physical activity, hobbies, hobbies, they like cycling or all that kind of stuff, they're going to have higher levels of this. And then we have the thermic effect of food going to be lower. For people that don't have high protein diets, people with high protein diets are going to have a higher thermic effect of food.
(06:48):
So these are ways that you can look at increasing your metabolism, which isn't the topic of the podcast that I want to dive in, but just a little side note here, if you did want to increase your metabolism, which is ultimately increasing how many calories that you burn throughout the day, then you would look at consuming a high protein diet because that would cost your body more energy to process. That is how we burn calories. And I wanted to highlight the fact that majority of the calories that we burn is literally just from existing. There are ways that we can change that, but our basal metabolic rate is made up of our height, our age, our weight, and our sex, our biological sex. And look, we can't really change our height. Once we become an adult, we can change our weight, which is the only thing that we can really change.
(07:44):
We can't change our age, our height or our sex, right? You can change your sex later on in life, but that doesn't change your biological sex. So the only thing that we can change there is our weight. So a heavier person, if you're the same height, age, and sex as someone, but someone's heavier than you, they're going to have a higher BMR because they need more energy to turn the lights on. So a small person is going to have a smaller basal metabolic rate than a larger person, whether they're male or female. The size really does have a big factor in basal metabolic rate because we need more energy to keep the lights on for a bigger house, let's say. And that is one of the biggest reasons why men can eat more calories than women. Sometimes there's recommendations for men and there's recommendations for women, for example, when we look at calorie intake, and that's ultimately because men on average are larger than women, so they need more calories to sustain life than females do.
(09:01):
Very basic, but I just want to break it down because we are diving into burning calories in this podcast. So if you did want to increase your metabolism, male or female, you could gain weight. Obviously we would want that to try to be muscle as opposed to gaining fat, but that is one of the things that we can change in our BMR, our basal metabolic rate, or else that just kind of stays pretty steady. And to give you an example of what or how big the basal metabolic rate is for me, so I'm 90 kg mostly, I fluctuate up and down. I'm around 90 kg, I'm six foot tall or 183 centimetres, obviously male.
(09:55):
My basal metabolic rate is around 1900 to 2000 calories. So it depends what calculator you use. You can go online and use different basal metabolic rate calculators. Mine was around 1900 calories. So for me just to wake up, if I was just to never get out of bed, I would be 1900 calories burning just sitting there. And then if you look at my neat levels and my eat levels and my thermic effector food, all those calories piled on top, then that would make my TDE, which is my total daily energy expenditure. So your basal metabolic rate is the thing that is just fixed, right? But our total daily energy expenditure is our basal metabolic rate, plus our NEAT levels, our EAT levels, and our TEF levels. And that ultimately our TDE, our total daily energy expenditure is another word, a elongated word for our maintenance calories.
(10:53):
And I want you to understand this because this is going to help you understand when you want to lose weight or when you want to gain weight or when you want to maintain weight, how many calories you should be consuming. I have a calorie calculator that you can use. It doesn't calculate your basal metabolic rate, but it calculates your TDEE, your maintenance, and then if you want to lose weight, you would consume less calories than your maintenance. If you wanted to gain weight, you would consume more calories in your maintenance. And these are the principles of the calorie deficit, calorie maintenance, and also the calorie surplus. But the BMR and the TDEE are intertwined, but ultimately my TDEE, my maintenance is around 3,500 calories, and that could sound high, especially with my basal metabolic rate only being around 1900 to 2000 calories. I have this other 1500 calories to make up and that is used or those calories burnt, those 1500 calories above my basal metabolic rate, my neat levels, my eat levels, and my thermic effector food.
(12:03):
So for my neat levels, I am very active. I look at my, so I have a Fitbit, and I'm going to get into how accurate smart watches are towards the end of this podcast. But for example, I've done 7,000 calories. Sorry, I've done 7,000 steps. So 7,469 is what I'm on now. I've done a juujitsu class before I did this podcast, so that's extra planned exercise you could say. But that doesn't register on my watch. I don't wear my watch whilst I roll or as it would break because we need our wrists to be able to be grabbed in jiujitsu. So that's my neat levels. But on average just today, and it's around 3:00 PM right now, but for the rest of my neat levels, I average around somewhere between 10,000 to 15,000 steps per day. I usually get more steps on the weekend because I'm with my family.
(13:04):
I go for a walk with my wife and my daughter quite often. We go down to the beach, we walk up and down, we walk different places. We might go to the shopping centre, all that kind of stuff. But I have quite a high physical activity level with my steps. I would say my average, I could probably pull it up on my phone, but I don't have it on me. It's probably over 70,000 steps per week. And for my planned exercise, I do three jujitsu sessions that are like 90 minutes long, and then I do five workouts, which are about one hour long. So as you can see, I have a really big physical activity level, and if we look at our physical activity level, it's made up of our planned exercise and our non-planned exercise. And that's why at the beginning of this podcast, I said, it doesn't really matter if our walks are planned or non-planned.
(13:50):
You can put them in whatever box you want to because it still sits in our physical activity box, which is our neat levels, non-planned exercise, plus our eat levels, which is our planned exercise, our workout. So whether I class my 10,000 steps that I do on average a day into planned exercise or non-planned exercise, it still sits in this physical activity bucket, and your body doesn't care where your calories expenditure has come from. It just costs you energy, it costs you calories, and that is what you are burning when you're looking at that. So for example, I also have a high level of protein in my diet. I'm consuming around 2.5 grammes per kilo of body weight, which is the upper echelon of a high protein diet. So as you can see, I'm a bit of a calorie burning machine, so that's why my maintenance calories is 3,500.
(14:44):
Some people wouldn't even dream of eating 3,500 calories, but that's just the reality of my life. I'm very physically active. I would say I'm reasonably tall, I'm reasonably muscular, I'm reasonably heavy, and I have a high level of protein in my diet, so I have to eat lots of food, 3,500 calories. That's just for me to maim weight. At the moment, I'm dropping weight and I'm on about 3,300 to 3,200 calories. That's only a 300 calorie deficit each day, but that's helping me to lose a slight amount of weight every week. I don't want to lose too much, but just slowly edge it off, and that's the importance of understanding your total daily energy expenditure and how many calories you burn because once you're aware of how much you burn, then you can now go, okay, this is what I'll do. If I was going to lose weight, this is what I'll do if I was going to gain weight.
(15:37):
It's the same if you look at budgeting, if you know how much you're earning and how much you're spending or how much your entire household is bringing in and how much your entire household costs. You might have kids, you might have a wife, the kids might have schools, you might have hobbies that you need to pay for. You might have a mortgage to pay for, you might need to pay for a car, you might need to go shopping to buy clothes, whatever. We all have expenditures and kind of like how much we make coming in as well, but if we're not aware of it, we don't know what to do to save money or we don't know what to do if we're going to spend too much and go into debt or go broke. And that's the same thing. That's how I like to look at calories as well.
(16:18):
If we don't know how much we're burning, then we don't really know how much we need to consume if we are going to lose, maintain or gain weight. And that takes me to the next question. What is the best way to burn as many calories as possible? And this seems to be the goal of so many people in the gym. They're like, I want to burn as many calories as possible. And I understand that because if you are overweight, it's a simple equation. You have been eating more calories, consuming more calories than you've been expending, and the fat that you've accumulated is just repetition of that, consuming too many calories, not burning enough calories. But if you know your TDEE, your total daily energy expenditure, then oh man, I'm eating too much. My total daily energy expenditure is only 2,500 calories. So why am I eating 3000?
(17:12):
That's why I'm gaining weight. For me, this knowledge is empowering. I don't think it's obsessive. I don't think it's like, oh man, you're thinking too much about food. This is going to be a problem for you. I think that once you're aware of it, you can actually make change and you can change your body composition in a positive way. So what is the best way to burn as many calories as possible? There are studies on this in terms of cardio is slightly more calorie expending than other forms of exercise, let's say like lifting weights. However, over a 24 hour period, weights and cardio is kind of relatively the same, obviously. It depends. If you're running a marathon, you're going to burn a tonne of calories. If you're doing a huge CrossFit games tournament, then that would, I would say classes like lifting weights because you're doing dead lifts, you're doing snatches, you're doing farmer's carries, you're doing kettlebells.
(18:13):
That is super calorically expensive as well. But if we just look at the average cardio and the average lifting weights, it's kind of the same. Cardio burns more calories initially, lifting weights burns pretty equal amounts of calories over a 24 hour period. And that is, I don't know if it's still legit, but this whole afterburn effect, once you lift weights, your muscles are recovering. So they don't just stop. If you go for a run, yes, your muscles probably need to recover, but not as much as lifting heavy weights, having a slow eccentric, like you're really breaking the muscle down and then it needs to recover over the next 24 48 hours. It's more demanding than it is doing cardio. So overall, it kind of averages out, which is why I always say don't try to burn as many calories as possible. Number one, we need to zoom out and look at sustainability.
(19:08):
Are you going to be able to maintain this protocol of exercise that you've chosen or are you just trying to slog yourself and burn as many calories as possible because it's all good trying to burn calories and drop body fat and become fit and things like that. Or maybe just look fit, look leaner, whatever goal you are going for, but you have to be able to sustain it. Personally, I have a bias towards lifting weights. I really enjoy it. But also I know that lifting weights does not just burn calories, it builds muscle. And muscle mass is way more, not way more, but it is more calorically expensive to exist in your body than fat is. So if you have someone that's a hundred kg jacked bodybuilder or maybe a hundred kg person that's obese and not much muscle mass, but just a lot of fat mass, this bodybuilder is going to burn more calories than the person that is just made up of mostly fat because they have more muscle.
(20:12):
Muscle is more metabolically active and recover and let's say requires more energy for the lights to stay on. Let's put it simple like that. So I like lifting weights because I like looking at it as investing into your metabolism. You're paying down deposits into your metabolism. I think if I was 90 kilos, six foot like I am and male, I would not burn as many calories. If I was less muscular, I wouldn't be able to eat 3,500 calories and just my weight because I would have less muscle, which is more metabolically demanding than fat is. So the best way to burn calories, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter. So I had this quote that I've kind of been working on, and it goes like this. If I watched Netflix all day and never got out of bed, I would burn 1900 to 2000 calories.
(21:12):
If I hit 10,000 steps per day, I would burn an additional 600 to 700 calories. If I lifted weights, I would burn 300 to 400 calories. The amounts of calories that we burn in the gym is very small compared to how much we burn from just being alive and walking work out to build muscle, not to burn calories. And that's ultimately what I've just been explaining in this podcast. Look at the amount of calories that we burn without eat levels. It's not significant compared to our neat levels and definitely not significant to our basal metabolic rate. So don't lose your mind about checking your watch. How many calories did I burn? Oh, I burned 400 calories. I'm such a failure. I should have burned 450 or 500. It's not about that. It's about doing what you enjoy and is that form of exercise that you're doing, getting you closer to your goal, whatever that may be.
(22:06):
It could be getting jacked in looking like a Greek God, that's brilliant. It could also just be running a faster half marathon because you're doing the city to surf soon. That's also cool. It depends what you want to do. I have a bias towards lifting weights. It helps me become more muscular. It helps me become stronger. It helps me with my performance in jujitsu. And also I want to look a certain way because I enjoy looking a certain way and maintaining this lifestyle. I also feel great. My joints don't hurt. And now that I have a daughter, I want to be around for my daughter, and I know that sarcopenia, as I get older, it's far away. Look, I'm 29 years old. I'm not getting old by any means, but later on as I start getting older and deteriorating in my muscle degrading, I want to be able to have as much muscle mass as possible and take that investment of muscle into my future.
(22:52):
So I'm not this little fragile person that's going to fall over and need a hip replacement that is serious as you get older, right? Right. Now, I don't have to think about that, but as you get older, you're like, damn, man, I should have lifted some weights and looking at people, parents, grandparents, now within my family, within my friend group, within my circle, it's just becoming so loud and clear that lifting weights is just so important into your elder years. There's studies about creatine in the elder population too and the benefits that it could have for them. And I'm like, if only you knew because I'll talk to these people and they don't lift weights. They think that going for a walk is enough and look, it's better than nothing, but it's not going to give you that same response where your muscle's going to grow and help you to be more sturdy as you get older, but they just have no clue about, especially creatine supplementation.
(23:50):
That's a different thing. High protein diet, no way that generation, this wasn't talked about. So I hope that this helps you to understand the ideas around weight training, around having a high protein diet, even supplementing with things like creatine to help you become stronger, recover faster and more muscular. These things will pay off in your lazy years. I know that you probably don't want to think about it and fair play because I don't need to think about it either, but it's nice to know as you kind of get older, you can take that muscle mass into your older years. All right, so moving on. The best way to burn calories, we kind of just discussed. Now let's talk about eating calories versus burning calories. Look, you cannot out exercise a bad diet. That quote has been in the fitness industry for a while and fair play.
(24:44):
It should be because it is very, very true. Eating calories is so much easier than burning calories. If look, man, one day I feel sick just thinking about it. I did a 10,000 calorie challenge with my friend Dave. He didn't end up making it, but I ended up getting to 10,000 calories and it was disgusting. The feeling that I had was just like eating 10,000 calories was just such a mission. But you know what? I did it in 24 hours. I ate 10,000 calories. That is much easier to do than burn 10,000 calories. If you look at me just existing in my life, like Juujitsu, training steps, thermic, effective food eat levels, that's 3,500 calories just to maintain. So I had pretty much three days worth of food at maintenance in one day, and that is the sole reason that you cannot out exercise a bad diet.
(25:45):
It's so much harder to burn calories off than it is to consume them. Think of a Big Mac, it's around 500 calories. You can smash that super easy. A Big Mac man that's gone in a minute. For you to burn 500 calories, that is probably a really decent run, probably like a five kilometre run or lifting weights intensely for one hour. And you need to understand this because if you're trying to transform your body, this idea, I train a lot of people. If I was to talk to people and say, how's your diet going? Some of them will say, oh yeah, I haven't been too good. But I did more cardio. I didn't really stick to my diet on Sunday. I had a bit of a cheat meal, but I did an extra workout session. And I'm like, man, that extra 500 to 1000 calories that you had as your cheat meal was not compensated with that extra workout.
(26:43):
You are still at a loss with your calories here. You're going to gain weight and the maths just does not add up. If you are trying to eat, sorry, if you're trying to burn calories that you ate, you're never going to win. It's just too easy to eat, especially when you're eating hyper processed foods like a Big Mac, like a donut, like a cake, like these things that you have in cheap meal, you'll have it bang, bang, bang, it's done. And then that's like, mate, that's like a thousand calories done, 1500 calories. It's easy to just knock them back when they're foods that just feel like they just never want to stop to burn that back mate. That's almost half a week of training. So you need to really get an understanding. If you look at a hot dog eating contest versus a marathon,
(27:34):
Who's going to win a hot dog eating contest? You're going to be able to consume way more calories that way than running a marathon. And I know that that's not the perfect comparison, but they're doing this thing as fast as possible. You're eating as fast as possible in a hotdog eating contest. And when you're doing a marathon, you're running as fast as possible for a very long amount of time, but still the hotdog eating contest will always consume more calories than the marathon could ever burn. I now want to talk about the accuracy of smart watches that most people are wearing when they're into fitness or people will just wear it if they like the look of it. An Apple watch, for example. And let's talk about the accuracy of the amount of calories that you burn when you are looking at your watch. For example, let's look at my watch now, the amount of calories burnt. I just need to change my clock face so I can see it.
(28:33):
Let's go here. It says that I have burnt 2,446 calories today. So as I said, my maintenance is around 3,500, so it should kind of bring me up to 3,500 calories burnt by the end of the day. I still got a while now I need to burn like 1100 calories, and that might be relatively accurate, but let's look at what the research says about the accuracy of smart watches for energy expenditure estimates. No brand of wearable, which is what the watches are called, was within plus or minus 3% measurement era. More than 13% of the time, underestimation of energy expenditure, less than 3% was observed in Garmin wearables 69% of the time.
(29:30):
And in Withings wearables, it's just a different brand 74% of the time. Conversely, apple wearables overestimated energy expenditure 58 of the time. And polar wearables, which is just polar, is another brand. Wearables, overestimated energy expenditures. 69% of the time, Fitbit devices tended to provide inaccurate measures compared with the criteria underestimating 48.4% of the time and overestimating 39.5% of the time despite the image in the study showing a reasonable median value for accuracy. So ultimately, I knew this, most people know this, but it's a bit of a shit show. They're not that accurate. As you can see, some of them are underestimating by 48% and then overestimating by 40%. That's within the same brand of different models of the Fitbit. It's just so hard to tell, and this is why I don't like to look at calories burnt because first of all, it's so inaccurate. The way that you would actually have to determine that would be inhumane.
(30:45):
You would have to take muscle biopsies, you'd have to be in a metabolic chamber, and that's just unrealistic. Like, okay, maybe this is the best thing that we have, but it's not very good. That's why I don't like to look at it session by session. Oh, I burn 500 calories. I burnt 550 calories because then you get into this competition of how many calories did I burn? But when you're going to the gym, that's not how we measure progress. The amount of calories that we burn that is not okay. If you burn 700 calories and someone burned 300, does that mean that you're better than that person? No. Does that mean you had a better workout than that person? No, because you have questions like this. How was your form? What weights did you lift? Did you progress from last week by applying progressive overload?
(31:34):
Did you stick to your rest periods? Did you lift more weight than last week? You have a lot of questions to ask, and calorie burning doesn't really have much to do with it. Okay, look, if you're trying to lose fat, I understand you want to burn a certain amount of calories and maybe that's going to help you. But then you get caught into this vortex of going, okay, this week I burnt 500. Next week I'm going to do 510, then I'm going to do 5 20, 5 30, 5 40. And then you're no longer chasing progressive overload training with good forms, sticking to your rest periods. You're chasing just this number of calories burnt, which doesn't really do you any benefit. Because if we come back to what I was talking about before, the amount of calories burnt is so easy to overcome by eating too much. So I would rather shift that focus that you have of obsessing about how many calories you did to how many you consumed, because you can actually make more progress by monitoring.
(32:34):
This is for fat loss specifically. You can make more progress for fat by monitoring your intake rather than trying to maximise your outtake. And also you have this question of time. Can you just continue to train for so long? Okay, you started at burning 500 calories, but now you're up to 700, then you have to go to 800, then you have to go to 900. Are you just going to stay at the gym for two or three hours just smashing yourself on the StairMaster? It doesn't really make sense, and that's why we have to start working smarter as opposed to just working harder. Oh, I'm doing so much cardio. I'm doing so much weights, and then you're exhausted. That's not the smart way to approach fat loss. It's not about over exercising it. It's more so about the smarter way to do it is undereating.
(33:17):
And I don't mean starving yourself by saying undereating. I mean consuming a calorie deficit. So just coming under your maintenance and dropping body fat over that long extended time that way, that's the much smarter way to do things in my opinion. So how do I like to look at burning calories? I like to just use a calorie calculator. It just does the formula for you. I like to use the Harris Benedict formula. So if you use my calorie calculator, which will be if you're on YouTube, in the link in the description, if you're on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, I always put it underneath. You can use my free calorie calculator. It doesn't cost you anything but your email address. And once you have that number, that's your maintenance, that's your total daily energy expenditure. And once you have that, then you can really start experimenting.
(34:10):
Okay, so this should be your maintenance. You could even just eat that amount of calories for a week, and if your weight maintains, then that is your true maintenance. But sometimes the formula is not too wrong. Maybe sometimes you, instead of choosing slightly active, you choose moderately active. So it's not very accurate, but you'll get a feel for it. If you eat your maintenance calories that comes out of the calculator and you still lose weight, you'll know that if you want to maintain weight, you probably need to bump that up a little bit. You could bump it up 50 calories, you could bump it up a hundred calories, and you experiment that way. I like to do it this way because it looks at your week as an average, as opposed to like, oh, I burnt 700 calories today in my workout, so that means I need to eat X amount more.
(34:50):
And then if you only do a workout that's only 200 calories, then you have to readjust. But if you look at the average over time and just go, okay, my maintenance with my physical activity of slightly active, I need to eat 3000 calories and that's my maintenance. Okay, cool. That's it. And then you eat it. Oh wow, I'm eating 3000 and I'm still, I'm gaining weight. I think I wasn't accurate enough. So then you put in, okay, I think I'm actually sedentary. I don't train. And then it brings your calories down to 2,700, and then you maintain weight and you're like, oh, that's where I'm at. That's my total daily energy expenditure. So I like to look at it over the day as opposed to looking at it session by session, because then that is just too much work as well. And ultimately, that's how it works with fat loss.
(35:38):
It's about averages, it's about weekly averages. The same with your steps. How many steps are you doing over the week? How many calories are you consuming over the week? Are you sticking to that average? So sometimes you can just times your calories by seven and just try and hit that by the end of the week, because some days you might eat more, some days you might eat less. For example, my female clients will have their period and they'll feel ravenous sometimes when they are at certain points in their cycle. And then at some points we'll have to dial it back because look, hey, if we're trying to lose weight, you ate a bit more that week. So this week we're going to kind of dial it down a bit because this is when you feel less hungry. So we kind of play to that, and then you just look at averages as opposed to looking at, oh, I failed my diet today, I'm a bad person.
(36:26):
And then you just binge and then you get stuck in this cycle. So that's how I like to do it. I like to look at calories over the week. I like to look at it even over the month. And then you look at your weight over the week, your photos over the week, your measurements over the week, and then you start to get an idea for trends as opposed to looking at things that are just like, oh, I burn 200 calories today. Now I need to burn 200 here. Now I need to do 700 calories over here, and I need to do 500 calories in this workout. It can just be too much work. Use a calculator. Look, I'm not just trying to push my one. You can use whatever one you want online, but find a calorie calculator, use it, and then once you have that average, you can start making changes from there.
(37:10):
Whatever your goal may be. If it is to optimise muscle growth, you will get in a calorie surplus. And then if you use my calculator, it gives you a recommendation of how much of a calorie surplus you would need to create. If you wanted to just maintain your weight and get stronger, then you would just consume the maintenance calories that are provided or the total daily energy expenditure, whatever it is labelled as within the calorie, the calorie calculator that you use. And if you wanted to create a calorie deficit, you would eat underneath the maintenance calories that you receive. It's really that simple. So I'm going to wrap up this podcast here. I hope that this helped you with understanding how calories work and how expending calories works because once you understand it, you start to get an understanding of how much you need to consume and how much attention you need to give to consuming calories or burning calories, and what methods of exercise to use and does that really matter?
(38:05):
One finishing thing that I did want to end on was the power of walking. So neat levels, non-planned exercise, or if you want to put it in the planned exercise that I don't care what sort of ideology you want to stick to, but the power of walking, it's very like we burn more calories from our walking than our training. So look at it like that. I'm not saying it's better to skip a workout and go for a walk. Workouts build muscle. Walking doesn't. But in terms of burning calories and driving up your calorie expenditure, trying to burn more calories for things like fat loss, that's why instead of prescribing cardio, I often just prescribe more steps for people because going for a longer walk or being more intentional about your steps throughout the day is often easier than smashing out a cardio session and more attractive. So put that into your back pocket and use it next time. You want to lose fat or in reverse if you want to gain muscle, but you're struggling to gain weight, maybe you dialled your steps down so you burn less calories from your steps and create that calorie surplus a bit easier. Alright, team, I hope that helps. I'll see you in the next podcast.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Episode number 42 of the Bitter with Brock Podcast, I'm going to unravel the fat loss strategies that I personally use when I'm trying to lose weight at the moment. I'm currently participating in the Built by Brock eight Week Challenge, which is one of the programmes that I provide, and I'm three weeks in. This is my third week, and I'm not just going to share what a calorie deficit is and what a high protein diet is. That's stuff you can find on previous podcasts. In this stuff, I'm going to actually share with you stuff that I do day to day to make dieting easier for me so that I can sustainably lose fat whilst maintaining my muscle mass. Let's dive into it.
(00:41):
We are currently in the third week of the Built by Brock eight week challenge, which is called eight years in Eight weeks, and I have chosen to do a fat loss phase, a shred, a cut, whatever you want to call it, and I want to share the intricacies of the things that I do, and this isn't going to be explaining what a calorie deficit is. As I said, it's not going to be explaining what a high protein diet is and explaining the fundamental things that I harp on about on my Instagram and social media channels. I'm going to actually share practical things that I do on a day-to-day basis so that you can incorporate them if you want to as well. The first tip that I do is push breakfast back later into the morning. I wake up at around five or 6:00 AM every single morning, and that means that I am up earlier, so I get hungrier earlier, and if I have breakfast at half an hour after waking up, so it might be five 30, it could be six, even six 30, then that means that I've started consuming calories at a very early time of the day, and that just gives me more time to be hungry and consume more calories.
(02:05):
So as a way to protect myself from overeating, because if I don't stick to my calorie deficit, let's go back to the nutritional priorities. If I don't stick to my calorie deficit, then I'm not going to lose body fat. I'm just going to maybe maintain my weight, which can be fine, but if you're trying to lose fat that is failing, let's be clear. So if I start eating early, which I have no problem doing, if I'm maintaining my weight or even in a build calorie surplus, I love starting my day early because I'm starving after sleeping however many hours I sleep. But in fat loss, I just push it back. This is not intermittent fasting. I want to be clear with that. I'm not making a eating window of eight hours or six hours or four hours to try and stick to a intermittent fasting schedule.
(02:58):
All I'm is literally pushing my hunger back, having a bit of discipline, having a bit of grit because I'm starving in the morning. So I get busy. I work if my daughter wakes up and then I look after her for an hour or so, then I look after her and I'm engaged. I find that a lot easier to stop myself from eating when I'm engaged. So I'm not telling you to go and have a kid just to make sure that you're engaged in the morning. I'm saying if you engage yourself, it's a lot easier to stop thinking of eating cereal, eating a smoothie, sorry, drinking a smoothie, eating eggs on toast, whatever you want to have. It's a lot easier when you're engaged As a self-employed person, I find it easy to find things to do. If you struggle with finding things to do, then find a hobby, find something to do, read, watch a video, learn a new skill.
(03:56):
I just think that being engaged is the way forward. A lot of people overeat in general. This is not just for fat loss, but people overeat when they're bored. It's just something that we gravitate towards because that is instant comfort. If we eat and it tastes good, it's like, oh, that feels nice. But if you eat and you do, if you're engaged and you are working on something or you are focused or you are in flow state doing anything, maybe you like to read fiction, this stuff can really take your mind off eating, and I'm not telling you to starve yourself as well. So there is a balance. If you are super hungry, eat. But one of the things that I do is I have coffee in the mornings, so I have that before my meal. So when I wake up 30 to 60 minutes after I wake up, I'll have a black coffee and caffeine has an appetite suppressant effect, so that can also help you push breakfast back.
(04:53):
I always have coffee regardless, but sometimes when I'm in a building phase and I'm in a calorie surplus, I might have my coffee after my breakfast because I want to eat as many calories as I can. So you have to to understand with my calories, they're very high. So my maintenance is around about 3,500 calories. So if I'm in a calorie surplus and I'm trying to build, I'm eating around 3,800 to 4,000 calories per day, and that's quite tricky to get through. So I like to eat as early as possible and I like to have a smoothie and I jam pack it with calories. So it's about 1200 calories and I have that, and I don't want to have coffee before that because that's going to make me not hungry and push my breakfast back, which is good for fat loss, but not so good for a calorie surplus.
(05:43):
So I'm just explaining this so you can see why I'm doing things and maybe you can incorporate it as well. I find that the coffee is better for me. After about 30 to 60 minutes of being awake, I did used to just have it straight away and realised that it just kind of made things worse. In about an hour, in about 90 minutes, I just felt like I wanted to go back to sleep and I felt like I needed to crash. If I push it back 30 to 60 minutes, for some reason, it just feels like this nice slow energy release that I pick up and go with throughout the morning. So that's what I do. I've pushed my breakfast back from about 6 30, 6 o'clock, five 30 to around 8 39, 9 30 even sometimes 10. It just really depends on what my day looks like. Sometimes I have to have breakfast at home and then come into the team Brock Ashbury body quarters and start work and record or train clients or whatever I have to do.
(06:43):
So that's the first thing that I wanted to get out of the way because how you start your day is very crucial with fat loss. If you start the day and you're already like five, 500 calories in or 800 calories in and it's only 7:00 AM man, if you're on a lot lower calories than me, then you're going to, you might only have a thousand calories left for the day and you have to endure another 14 hours of being awake. So then it's like, oh man, how do I figure this out? I'm going to have to really push myself during this time and not eat here, and it's going to require more grit and resilience. And sometimes during the day, you are out and about and there's convenient foods everywhere and you'll just take it. But if you can push those calories back like 9, 9 30, 10, if you can handle it, that can often help you bunch your calories later on.
(07:31):
So then when you get to dinnertime or when you get to lunchtime or whatever time you start eating, you might have a bigger calorie allowance left. That's my first tip. Something that I'll put on the back of that, that isn't something I was actually necessarily going to talk about is what I like to do just because it helps me sleep better, have a very big dinner. So even when I'm in fat loss, and by very big, that doesn't necessarily mean calories, but it can mean just very big, like a big volume of food because it gives me this, it's actually called postprandial somnolence, which is a technical word for having a food coma after you eat. But after you eat a lot of calories or a big volume of food especially, you want to have that fibre nice and high whilst you're dieting. It can give you this kind of lull, sleepy, you finish eating and you just sit back on the couch.
(08:27):
You're like, oh, man, I like that feeling at night. It helps me sleep better. Some people don't sleep well with a full stomach. It causes them discomfort, but I'm not one of those people. So that's another thing that I like to do as well. I like to sleep on a big meal because it kind of sustains me throughout the night. If I don't, I wake up throughout the middle of the night and I'm hungry, and that is not a good situation to wake up at 2:00 AM or 3:00 AM starving because you're not at two or 3:00 AM If you wake up starving, you don't feel like a carrot, you don't feel like an apple. You don't feel like a spoonful of Greek yoghourt. You feel like the Ben and Jerry's that's in the freezer. So that's just a practical thing that you need to kind of watch out for.
(09:15):
The second thing, I remove any snacking. I'm not really a huge snacker to be honest, because I prefer to have that kind of feeling where you're like full even for breakfast and lunch, but for dinner, I like to hype it up, have a big hit of carbohydrates at night and be like, woo, I'm ready for bed. But even with breakfast and lunch, I like to have a satisfying meal. I'm not a grazer. I like to just have a big hit, but I feel like snacking is one of those things that people do in the workplace. People do it at home once again when they, it's usually when you're bored or you just have a lot of snack food in the house, biscuits, crackers. It can be healthy as well. It can be fruit, it can be beef jerky, all that stuff. But I think that most people would stick to their calories better if they stuck to meals.
(10:12):
And that doesn't mean you only have three meals a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It could mean that you have four to five meals, but I feel like when you snack in between, you don't really register it. You're kind of doing things while you're snacking, you're on the go, and it's very easy for you not to compute those calories and just eat your normal meals, which are supplemented with the snacks. If you take those snacks out, it's a very easy way to reduce your calories. So that's a very low hanging fruit thing. And the way that you could reduce snacking, because sometimes people snack because they have finished their first meal and it's maybe an hour or two after and they're still hungry or maybe it's instantly they're still hungry just after their meal. The thing that we can look at is bringing up your fibre.
(11:02):
Fibre is something that helps you feel satiated. It helps increase your satiety. It doesn't necessarily have to increase your calories, but you have to be cautious of what foods you're consuming. Foods that are high in fibre are often the foods that we should be eating more of that we don't. Your fruits and vegetables, they're very high in fibre. If you have an apple, if you have a carrot, if you have lettuce, if you have spinach, if you have kale, these foods are high in fibre, and what fibre does is it just helps us feel full because we're getting, it's processing slower through the stomach. So if you are feeling hungry and you feel like you need to snack, I would check your fibre. A good rule of thumb for fibre is around 15 grammes per 1000 calories that consume. So for me, my current calorie deficit calories are 3,300.
(11:58):
That's a lot, right? So 3000 calories, I could have 45 grammes of fibre to help me feel full because even on 3,300 calories, you might say, Brock, that's a ridiculous amounts of calories. How can you even eat that? And you're still losing weight. I know, but I just have a high metabolism. I have a high level of physical activity. However, I walk a lot. I train a lot. I'm a personal trainer, so I move around a lot, so I still get hungry on that. So I do still need to watch my fibre, and when that is high, I find that I'm not ravenous. I'm not looking around for things to eat at nighttime. Often it's after dinner for me. I'll look around for things. So this comes on to my third point, which is I increase my vegetable and my fruit intake because that just brings up my fibre so I feel more full.
(12:52):
And when I feel more full, not only do you reduce things like snacking, but you reduce your overall amount of calories. And if you're feeling more satiated, then you're going to probably train harder. You're probably because you feel more full, you're probably going to go for that walk. Instead of catching an Uber, you might cycle down to the grocery store, get it, put it in your backpack and come home as opposed to driving down. So these are the intricacies of fat loss that aren't necessarily like create a calorie deficit, like, okay, we get that. Yes, that's a very basic principle that everyone's starting to understand now, but what about day-to-day life? What does that look like when you buy more fruits and vegetables as opposed to muesli bars, biscuits, Tim Tams, bread rolls, things like that. You become more full, and when you are more full, you train harder, you snack less, you potentially consume less calories.
(13:54):
Your chances of being more physically active, not just in your workouts, but walking back and forth, playing with your kid, maybe going for a walk with a friend instead of sitting down and watching a TV series. Those things are going to become more likely because you are feeling fueled. And that's why there's a big difference between eating 2000 calories of McDonald's versus 2000 calories of low processed fruits and vegetables and very lean cuts of meat, let's say, because of things like fibre, right? So if you eat McDonald's, it's not necessarily the most fibrous foods that you're consuming, but if you're consuming fruits and vegetables, lean cuts of meat, maybe you're eating dairy as well in this place, you are going to feel different. So yes, fat loss is this energy in versus energy out. I consume 2000 calories. I burn 2,500 calories. There's a 500 calorie deficit that I am going to lose weight.
(14:53):
Okay, yes, tick the box. That's the basic fundamental understanding. But not all calories are created equal in terms of energy. They are. But in terms of fibre and in terms of how your body processes those calories, that is a completely different story. So back in 2019, I did this ice cream challenge 30 day ice cream challenge where I had 900 calories of ice cream every single day, and I still lost weight. I lost over five kilos in 30 days. Now to be very honest, that was hard because 900 of my calories, which is almost around a third of my calories at that time, were coming from ice cream. There's no fibre in ice cream. It's sugar. It makes you want to eat more. It's full of fat. And even though it was tasty and the diet was awesome, and it didn't feel like I was dieting, there were periods of time where I was super hungry.
(15:54):
And if I spread those 900 calories over fruits, vegetables, meat, yoghourt, better decisions, nutritious foods over delicious foods, if I contributed those 900 calories to more satiating foods, that ice cream diet I still would've received or that ice cream challenge, I still would've received the same results, but I would've felt a lot better. I would've been able to lift more weights. I would've been able to have more energy throughout the day to be more physically active. Maybe instead of 5.8 kilos that I lost, I think it was, or 5.2, whatever it is, I may have lost 6.3. If I felt better throughout the entire time, maybe my work would've been more productive. You never know. But that's why if you fall back on the principle of remaining satiated whilst you are in a fat loss phase, you can potentially get better results. So that's something I would definitely look at for yourself.
(16:52):
The fourth thing that I do is I intentionally walk more when I'm trying to pursue fat loss. So I can bike from my house to the teen Brock Ashbury body Quarters, and it'll take me about 20 minutes. I can drive, and depending on traffic, it can take me 10 minutes or it can take me all the way up to 15. But if I cycle, I'm being much more physically active, I'm burning more calories. Look, I look, to be very honest, I haven't done that in the first three weeks. That was just an option that I have that I'll probably start implementing soon because it's getting warmer. Obviously, cycling is limited in terms of weather. I'm not a fan of cycling in the rain, so I will wait until it gets warmer and then I will start. If I add that in later on in the diet, then I can still kick my fat loss on and I can kind of keep revving it up, if that makes sense.
(17:46):
But yeah, I intentionally walk more. I have a natural tendency to move quite a lot anyway, but I will go for walks with my wife. I will try and catch up with a friend. Maybe we'll work out, we'll come to the team, work actually body courts and we'll work out. Or I try to find excuses to be active with friends or social environments. Go to the beach, go to the park, as opposed to sitting down at a cafe or just meeting at someone's house and just chilling. Look, I'm not going to say no to someone or try and bail on it if there's no option to be active. Obviously I will try my best, but I like look, I think everyone in the world can benefit from moving a bit more, right? So if we can find excuses to do that, then that's awesome. And most people really enjoy it.
(18:37):
Most people love going to parks. They love going to beaches. They love getting out and about, but they just don't do it enough. Our lives have become so sedentary. Our lives have become, so, what's the word? Placid. So just stationary. We need to get ourselves out of it. Things like if you're on a phone call, get up and walk, pace the room while you're on that phone call. It actually helps for me to think as I walk. If I sit down on a phone, especially if I'm lying down on my phone, you can hear it in my voice. I sound lethargic. I sound lazy because that's the kind of physical posture that your body's in. But if you get up and walk, you're more energetic, you're probably going to think of better ideas. That's just bro science. That's not any science at all, but that's just what I experience with rest periods.
(19:28):
I get very, very intentional with them when I'm pursuing fat loss. So rest periods, many of my clients will know my stance on this. I want you walking. I want you walking. If you're getting 4,000 steps a day, it's not really good enough. We need to bump that up. So if you are working out in the gym and you do your sets of incline, dumbbell chest press as you're resting for that next set pace, the gym pace, the gym, you might just be going backwards and forwards. You might just going two steps forwards, two steps back, two steps forward, two steps back just to get those steps kicking over. When I was back in the gym 2016 to 2019 here in Sydney, a lot of them were corporate. They sat behind offices, sorry, sat behind desks in offices. They had meetings back and forth. So every rest period we would walk.
(20:21):
So I would be that personal trainer. We'd do our bench press, we'd do our squats, our deadlifts, whatever. We were doing our leg press, and then in our rest we would go for a walk, we'd go for a walk to the water fountain that'd get a quick drink. Then we'd come back or we'd go for a walk. We'd just like touch an end of the gym and then come back. It was just an excuse to move, but that could add an extra 2000 steps to their day. So they could go from 4,000 to 6,000, which doesn't sound like much, but over the week you've added 2000 a day. That's 14,000 steps. That is significant. So these little things that you do on the daily, these intricate things that you can do and that I'm sharing with you today in your fat loss journey, they do add up.
(21:01):
So don't discourage these little things that I'm sharing because you can do them and they start to pay dividends. It's about working smarter, not working harder. And if we work smarter and we do things like add 2000 steps to our day, then we don't have to flog ourselves in a two hour cardio session on a Sunday because we're potentially burning just as many calories just by adding in extra steps in our rest periods. So these little habits are things that pop up in my head, and sometimes I'll just do it naturally. I'll just do it naturally because I've been aware of these little tricks and tips that I've created myself and then I've just learned along the way. So intentionally walking more is a massive one. It doesn't just have to be walking. Maybe it's swimming. If you love swimming, maybe it's cycling. If you love cycling, maybe it's rowing if you love rowing, but I feel like walking is like a low hanging fruit.
(21:55):
We do that every day. Maybe you can get off the bus stop a bit earlier, mate, here's one thing that really grinds my gears. When you're on an escalator, especially if you have a trolley, get to the side. If you're going to stop walking or else keep moving, it's like humans are just looking for any excuse to not move. As soon as they step on an elevator that moves for them, they stop. And I'm thinking in my head, you can still walk when the escalator is moving. If you see elevators, take the stairs if possible. These little habits all add up.
(22:31):
The fifth thing that I do, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, yes, that's the fifth thing, is I intentionally track my calories. So I recommend this to everyone. My clients, obviously, for people that are potentially recovering or coming out of eating disorders or really struggle with things such as this, maybe it's not for you. I'm not saying you have to do it, but for everyone else, tracking your calories is such a benefit. It's such a tool that you can use to raise awareness on the types of foods that you're consuming. I've tracked for ages, and I do have periods where I don't track. I definitely track when I'm trying to lose fat because that's when I really calculate things. I want to really hit my deficit so that I actually get it done. Okay, so let's come back to this principle of get in, get out, and this is why I track my calories.
(23:30):
I'm in a calorie deficit, right? It's not fun. I don't want to be here, so I want to be in it. I want to get it done, and then I want to get out of this calorie deficit. This is not where you optimally build muscle. This is not where you optimally build strength. This is not where you optimally work at or live at. It's just to lose body fat. So you want to get in your calorie deficit, get the hell out of there. We should not be spending more time here than we need to. So I like to track my calories because then when we're cutting, and I say this to my clients, when you're cutting, we're cutting. Okay? And that might come off as me being really serious, but it's better for me to be on your back for eight weeks, for 12 weeks so that you get great results than me to just be chill and be like, oh, okay, you don't feel attracting your calories.
(24:16):
Okay, okay, that's cool. Oh, you didn't lose weight this week. Okay, that's fine. No, because then if just being sloppy with your approach, your calorie deficit or your time that you think you're any calorie deficit is just going to extend. So eight to 12 weeks of hard work, tracking calories, being diligent is much more efficient than kind of doing it for 16 weeks, for 20 weeks for 24 weeks, because then you just drag it out and then you're dragging it out so you're not getting results, and then you feel shit about the time that you're investing to try and achieve this. So you may as well do it. You may as well give it a hundred percent. If you're going to do it, do it right. What's that saying? Do it right. Do it once, do it wrong. I don't know. Do it Many times.
(25:03):
I think let's just do it right, do it once. So that's the same thing with the calorie deficit. We show up, we stick to the calories, we stick to the macros, and we just do it because we don't want to be here for long. And I think that's why people's lives start to deteriorate. And people get stuck on these poverty calories where they're on 1600, 1500, 1400, 1300, 1200 for such a long time, and their brain doesn't function very well. They're weak in the gym. It's because they're not tracking and they're just sticking to these low calories and then maybe bingeing and then sticking to it, and then maybe bingeing or not being aware of your calories. It's like all this big grey area. The more sloppy you are, the slower the results that you are going to see. That's why we want to be intentional. And tracking your calories can help you be more calculated how much protein you've had in a day and need to have, how much fat and carbs you need to have as well.
(26:05):
So obviously, a big part of that is getting it correct and making sure that you're tracking the right calories and macros. But once you have that, you want to be diligent with it. You don't want things to extend out longer than they have to extend, because that's when fitness starts to feel really lame, and that's when your diet that you're sticking to feels like really unsustainable and you're like, oh, man, I'm not even getting results. But it's because you are not tracking. Most probably when I don't track my calories, I overeat more than I think. I'm like, oh, I'm at 3000 calories, but I'm not. I'm at way more because the portions of peanut, the portions of mayonnaise, the portions of honey that I put in, things are way bigger than I think that I'm having. I always give myself the benefit of the doubt, and most humans do.
(26:53):
So track, weigh your food, weigh your meat, watch your portion sizes, reduce your snacking, all these types of things. But as long as you track everything and things are adding up to the numbers that you want, then you're going to see success. And it's better to see success by going full on than not seeing success because you are chilling and you're relaxing. So really lock that in. Another thing that I do after dinner is I have a tea. I've been doing that ever since I started the challenge, and that really kicks my sweet tooth cravings. As I said before, I've done an ice cream challenge before. I absolutely adore ice cream. I love it. I have it quite a lot, but whilst I'm doing this fat loss stint, I'm actually not eating it. And I could, if I wanted to hear me out, I could if I wanted to, I could make those calories work, but I'm choosing not to because I just want to have this big savoury dinner.
(27:51):
At the moment, that's what I feel like. I have a massive bowl of rice. I have ground beef. I might have a little portion of vegetables, and I'll put it in a wrap. Tomato sauce, mayo barbecue sauce. I love sauce. And I've actually really fell in love with this thing called power kraut. So that's a play on words for sauerkraut, but this power kraut, it's like amazing. I've been having that. Anyway, so I've been putting that in my wraps. So I do that and I have this big hit and I'm like, oh, this is awesome. If I have ice cream on top of that, I'm going to have to save like 1500 calories just for dinner, which is almost half of what I'm having in a day. So I'm just choosing not to have ice cream, and what I'm doing is having tea after dinnertime, and that's really helping me just not really feel like anything.
(28:41):
And I have different teas. I'm not necessarily trying to be like, I'm having a tea for this particular benefit. The only benefit that I'm looking for is I'm having this instead of ice cream. And tea has no calories in it. Ice cream has a lot, especially if you are eating a good ice cream like gelato. So tea is this thing that's kind of saving me at the moment. Another layer to that is what my wife and I were doing. This was quite a while ago, I think it was when we were getting ready for our wedding. We did a mini shred. You want to look if your wedding photos and all that. We did a fruit platter towards the end of the night. So it wasn't really a platter. It was just like kiwi fruit, apples, bananas, oranges all cut up. And we would just eat that, and you could have two or 300 calories and you would feel absolutely stuffed, where if you had two or 300 calories of ice cream, it's not going to be that much. So that's a really wise thing. And then once again, coming back to the earlier point, fruit has a lot of fibre in it, so it helps you to feel full as well. And they are nutrient dense. Unlike ice cream, which is just full of fat and sugar, there's dairy in it, there's cream and all that, but it's not the best for you. There's better things in fruit. Then there is an ice cream. So if you're going to have a fruit platter at nighttime, it's often going to be more healthy for you.
(30:11):
That pretty much wraps up this podcast. I wanted to share with you the things that I do on a daily basis. This isn't stuff you're going to read in a research paper. This isn't stuff that you're potentially going to learn in a personal training course or a nutrition course. These are just things that I find work for me that you could apply day to day. It's not very hard. The stuff that I'm doing, I'm just an everyday person like you. The stuff that I'm doing can be easily applied for yourself. I do want to end this podcast on a motivational email that I wrote the other day just to close it out and give you a bit of motivation. I have a email list that I write, three emails a week for Motivational Monday, wisdom Wednesday, and then Facts Friday. So they all have slightly different themes.
(31:03):
Obviously on Friday, I provide facts for you. It's often backed by research from a paper. Wednesday, I try and impart a bit of wisdom. Monday I try and get you going. It's the start of the week, but this is what I wrote on Monday, which was the 21st of August. Here we go. Motivation is something that fleets, it spikes when you lose weight, it drops when you gain weight. It increases when you have a great sleep. It decreases when you can't get your eight hours. And I'm going to be honest here. The last few weeks, I have not been the most motivated person, but I have been a disciplined person staying up to midnight to do the necessary work. Waking up at 5:00 AM to write programmes, emails, and edit videos, working out when sleep deprived and hungry. I'm currently cutting. Let me share something with you. Motivated people will last days and weeks.
(31:57):
Disciplined people will last months and years. The bigger goal you are trying to achieve, the more time you'll need to achieve it. Therefore, the disciplined person will always achieve much more than the motivated person. Which one are you? And if you want to receive these emails, you can hit the link, which will be in the description. There's no lock in. You can unsubscribe at any time. It's just literally to get you motivated, to get you wiser, and to give you some fitness facts to help you transform your body. That's all you have to do. That was episode number 42. I'll see you in the next episode. Please, if you can it share this episode with people that really helps me grow. And also leaving reviews on whatever platform you are. There's obviously Spotify. There's Apple Podcasts. I also film this, so it's on YouTube. If you're on YouTube, what's up?
(32:52):
If you're listening to it on Spotify, if Apple and you like watching YouTube, I'm here. I'm filming myself. So you can, I like to do that because I know that it supports the creator because YouTube views are ways to help get bigger guests on their podcast. So I'm obviously doing a lot of solo podcasts at the moment. I just haven't had time to reach out to people and get people on. So I'm just sitting down and imparting education that I have. But if you want to see bigger guests on the podcast, subscribing to the YouTube channel really helps because a measure that they look at like, oh, is it worth my time coming on your podcast? Oh, you have no subscribers. See you later. So if you can please subscribe on YouTube. That really helps as well. Just search up the bit with podcast. Other than that, I'll see you in the next one. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
We have made it to episode number 41 of the bed with Brock podcast. Coming up in the future of the podcast, we'll be having a few more guests, which is going to be very cool. But today we are doing another solo episode where I want to break down rep ranges, different numbers of reps that you do with exercises and also what sort of exercises suit different rep ranges. They've now also got a secret productivity hack that you can take away today and apply very, very easily. Let's get into it.
(00:38):
Let's dive into ranges. What we know basically around ranges are they are the number of repetitions that we do for an exercise. So if we are doing a programme and it says do bench press for eight reps, that is the number of times that we do the bench press. That's very simple, that's our understanding. But as a personal trainer, I'm very interested in rep ranges and as a person that follows programmes or a person that works out listening to this podcast, rep ranges aren't just numbers that coaches pick from the sky or numbers that you should go, what do I feel like doing? I feel doing 10 today, I am going to do 10, and then next week, oh, I feel like doing 20 today I am feeling pretty good. I'm going to do 20. And then, oh man, today I feel like I'm going to go heavy.
(01:26):
So let's go heavy. It's not just something that you want to just do on the fly makeup. Oh, I feel like doing this. I feel like doing that. Reps are chosen for a reason. So I want to lay down those reasons. But first of all, I want to explain something about ranges that not many people actually understand. And I learned this a few years ago and it's transformed the way I programme, the way I look at reps and also the way I look at intensity. Intensity is not just how hard you're training in terms of how you feel like, oh, I train very intense. It actually breaks down into how close are you to failure or what proximity are you in to failure, often best measured in reps and reserve, also known as RIR. People often use RPE or rate of perceived exertion, which I use as well. And that actually comes from a cardio background. So applying it to weights is not the same, but ultimately rates of perceived exertion is, how do you feel when you do it out of 10, is it a six out of 10, seven out of 10, eight out of 10, nine out of 10 or 10 out of 10. And before I jump into rep ranges, let's kind of break this down first. This is very important to understand about intensity with regards to RPE versus RIR. So if we do something at,
(02:55):
So let's just go back to the bench press. If we do the bench press and we do eight reps of a hundred kilos, that's easy. No jokes. So we do eight reps of a hundred kilos and we come up after we finish and we go, man, that was a 10 out of 10, like I gave it my all. That's what you perceived. The exertion at your reps and reserve though may not be zero reps and reserve. That may have felt like a 10 out of 10, but physiologically maybe you could have got one more rep after you've finished. So you thought you were out of 10, out of 10, but maybe you weren't completely because you still had a rep and reserve. And often that's the confusion with perceived exertion and with reps and reserve reps and reserve is very like, could you get another rep or not?
(03:49):
Rate of perceived exertion was like how do you feel? So there's this kind of subjectivity versus objectivity. How did you feel versus what was actually real data versus feelings type of thing. And what I've found and what the research actually supports is people don't actually know very well where failure is. People think that it's closer. People think that they're training close to failure, but what I like to say is if I had a gun to your head, could you get any more reps out? If you could get two more reps out, if I had a gun to your head that was two reps in reserve when you finished that set, but that could have felt like a 10 out of 10 before you got those two more reps when I put the gun to your head. So just be careful when you're thinking of perceived exertion, rate of perceived exertion, RPE versus reps and reserves.
(04:42):
So I have taught in the past a seven out of 10 rate of perceived exertion is similar to three reps and reserve because you're about 70% and if you're training at 70%, you have around three reps left in the gas tank for the exercise that you're doing. And then if you bump that up and if you train at eight out of 10 or 80%, then you have around two reps and reserve. And then if you take that up again and if you go train at nine out of 10, then you have a one rip and reserve. And then if you go 10 out of 10 range of perceived exertion training as hard as you can to failure, that is equal to zero rips and reserve having nothing left in the gas tank. And that was the sort of comparison that I drew. However, what I just explained is something can feel harder than it really is.
(05:37):
I remember I trained a client on the gym floor and he was about 40 late forties and he was a high position corporate banker, worked for one of the big four banks in Australia, very high up job, very stressful and very the kind of person that wasn't really into sport growing up, more of an academic, quite uncoordinated. But he trained with me once a week and twice a week actually twice a week he trained with me and he would train with me and he thought that things were much harder than they really were. He was, I remember I had a female client before him and we were doing dumbbell chest press. Ladies, you can do dumbbell chest press. Just because you don't necessarily want a big chest doesn't mean that you shouldn't do dumbbell chest press. It's more of a structural balance thing as opposed to a let's get big pecs type of thing.
(06:40):
Doing dumbbell chest press for ladies is not going to give you bigger boobs, but it does keep your body in balance. So keep that in mind. So we were doing like 12.5 or 15 kilo dumbbells for dumbbell chest press. Very impressive for her because she weighed around 40 kilos. So she was pretty strong, very strong. We actually got her very strong and we were training 12.5 to 15 kilos on the dumbbell bench press. And then I had this next client, the high position corporate banker working for the big four, high stress, not super athletic, not very coordinated, and he literally did half the weight. He was doing 7.5 kg and he was shaking, he was shaking when he was lifting them, not necessarily because he wasn't strong enough, but because he was also not used to having that feeling of dumbbells in your hands whilst doing dumbbell chest press. And if you look at it, you've got a 40 kilo woman lifting more than a 40-year-old man who is much bigger should be much stronger.
(07:52):
She was strong. So that kind of goes out. Obviously the advantage goes to her because she was more inclined to be stronger because she trained with me for a while, et cetera. But he should have really been able to do that. But his perception of failure was very, he thought he was very close and me watching, I was like, man, you could do 10 more reps if I had a gun to your head and I would challenge him and say, can you push more? Can you push more? And he would say, no, that's my limit. And he would stop with his training in the gym because I couldn't get him to that position to a two reps in reserve or one rep in reserve or even zero reps in reserve. I couldn't get him there. He was also quite afraid of injury as well. He had some mental obstacles to overcome that way with that obstacle that he had of getting close to failure.
(08:48):
He was not able to build a significant amount of muscle mass. He went from not training to training, which is already a huge step for someone that never got into training before they worked with me as a personal trainer. So kudos to him. He was lifting weights twice a week from lifting weights zero times per week and as a kind of late forties guy that was kind of heading into not his elderly years, but as he was getting older, he was doing his best to maintain or build, sorry, maintain whatever muscle mass he had or build some muscle mass to take into his older years to help with his anti fragility as he got older, which is a big marker of your health as you go into your elder years. You want that bone density to be more solid so you don't fall over and break a hip or break an arm or things like that.
(09:42):
So props to him regardless. But he thought he was training at a nine out of 10, 10 out of 10 RPE, which he probably was, but he wasn't within three reps and reserve at all. I don't think any of his training sessions were, which is why his progress was limited. So that highlights the difference between RPE versus reps and reserve. So I encourage you to try to think of reps and reserve and when it comes to building muscle, you want to be at least bare minimum three reps and reserve if you go five reps and reserve and lower. So for example, if you finished a working set of your workout, someone held a gun to your head and you did five or more reps, then you would not be lifting at a high enough intensity to build muscle and get stronger. That's what the research says.
(10:42):
So when you are looking at training, keep that in mind with your intensity, RIR is what you want to focus on and you want to be at least three reps and reserve or higher, five or less and you're not really working that hard. So I wanted to get that out of the way before I dive into what rep range is the best and for what because what I'm about to share with you is pretty eye-opening and it kind of takes the pressure off rep ranges and more on your intensity. So when we are looking at building muscle mass and getting stronger, but mainly building muscle mass, we can build muscle from anywhere between three reps and 30 reps.
(11:33):
Let me say that again. You can build reps at any rep range between three and 30. You can do a strength workout lifting very heavy for three reps and build muscle. You can choose a weight that's lighter that suits the 30 rep range. You can also build muscle that way. What matters is not the rep range. What matters is how close you are getting to failure. But listen up here, how you get to failure is going to be very different with three reps and with 30 reps with 30 reps, you're going to be getting a bit more of a burn because you've got more reps to chew through with three reps, all of those reps are going to be quite hard because you're already at a high enough intensity and you only have to repeat the movement three times. If you have to do it 30 times. I feel like there's going to be some reps out of that 30 that aren't going to be as, what's the word, muscle building, hypertrophy provoking because you're having to do these reps to get in to that proximity of failure if that makes sense. But if you only do three reps, all of those reps are going to be pretty hard because you only have to do it three times. So within this, what is the best rep range for hypertrophy question.
(13:07):
I would challenge the idea that going higher reps is probably not the best idea because out of 30 reps, maybe the last five are going to be really challenging and then you've just done 25 reps and the name of getting to fatigue for those last five reps to pay off and get close to one to two or three reps in reserve. However, if we come down to the lower rep range, it doesn't even have to be three, it can be anywhere like three to 5, 6, 7, 8 in this bottom end of the reps, we're not going to have to do as many reps to get close to failure. We already start at a point where we are training pretty hard and lifting a decent weight, consistently close enough to failure. So if you're doing five reps and you get one to two reps in reserve, all of those reps are going to be relatively hard.
(14:10):
I would say the first one, two, maybe even three reps aren't going to be as hard as the last two, but they're still going to be pretty hard compared to a rep. A set where we're doing 30 reps the first, I don't know, 15 to 20 reps are going to feel quite easy because you have to chew through them before you get to those muscle building hypertrophy provoking reps. Towards the end it lines up with that quote that Arnold says, you only start counting the reps when it hurts. It's a bro science thing to say, but I wouldn't say that it's far from the truth. We need to get to those reps where something happens and it's when the weight involuntarily slows down. So let's look at doing a deadlift. If we're doing a deadlift and we're coming and we're lifting the deadlift with a tempo of 3 0, 1 0 3 seconds down, one up.
(15:13):
If we are going three seconds down and one up that's following the tempo. But you want to get to a point where, and this is for building muscle mass where the reps involuntarily slow down so that 3 0 1 0 tempo, which is three seconds down, one up, the intent is still there, but what it realistically might look like is 3 0, 2 0 or 3 0 3 0, which is like three seconds down, two seconds up or three seconds down, three seconds up. As you get closer to failure, that explosive concentric rep may slow down, but that is good when we are getting really close to that one to two reps in reserve, which is where the muscle building happens. So that's something to consider when you're thinking of rep ranges. It's not necessarily what number you're hitting, it's how close you're getting to failure and within that, how many reps do you have to do before getting close to those involuntary reps where the bar is involuntarily slowing down, which poses.
(16:21):
The next question that I want to introduce to this conversation is what reps are the best for hypertrophy? And there was this chat of the hypertrophy rep range is eight to 12. People have been saying that for years and then when people said, oh no, you can build muscle from anywhere between three to 30 people kind of discarded the eight to 12 hypertrophy rep range. But here's why I think it's not necessarily eight to 12. I would say for me the best rep range, man, I'm going to say somewhere between four to eight because it's heavy enough for you to be lifting heavy for a decent amount of reps, most of those reps are going to be at a high intensity, but it's also light enough that you're kind of getting enough repetitions in there, but not too many reps that you're getting fatigued and not being able to perform and lift heavier weights within that low rep range of four to eight, you're still working your strength as well.
(17:26):
But if you go to that higher rep range where you're lifting weights between, I don't know, 15 to 30 reps, you're not necessarily getting stronger from this perspective. You are just building up fatigue in your muscles, getting close to failure, which can build muscle, but you're not necessarily going to get strong when you sit in this four to eight rep range. You have the ability to build muscle and you have the ability to build strength. Building strength is great because if you build strength then that can carry over to those higher rep ranges, but the higher rep ranges don't necessarily carry over to the lower rep ranges, if that makes sense. That's why I've always kind of been a fan of this lower rep range and it's quite a challenge to try and sell that to people like lifting heavy four to AIPs, especially women.
(18:14):
It's getting better, trust me. But it kind of used to be, oh, women jump on the treadmill and do cardio and they do the stair master, thank the lord. That's changed because now they're getting strong, they're squatting, they're doing doing bench press, they're doing hip thrust. The whole strong versus skinny debate is out there. Not saying that I'm taking a side, but I'm very resistance training not just for what your body looks like but for what your body's capable of doing. And as you're getting older, that whole anti fragility side that I was talking about before to combat sarcopenia, which is muscle degradation as you get older, that's a different conversation for a different day. But I'm very, this kind of four to eight rep range and I've always personally felt that I've built the most muscle and looked the best when I have followed a programme that kind of sits in that lower rep ranges.
(19:12):
I really thrive off like a five by five programme. I really thrive off like a four by six programme when I was a face-to-face, face-to-face personal trainer in Sydney Fitness First Market Street. I did quite a lot of six by six programmes, which is quite a lot of volume for the amount of heavy lifting that I did. I'd probably do it different now, probably more four by six, but I'll do six by six. I would do descending reps schemes where I would go 6, 6, 4, 4, 2, 2. I'm a big fan of that. I would also jump into something called wave loading, which is where you could go 6 4, 2 6, 4 2. That's also very fun. And I found that I got very strong, which was awesome. But I also built pretty decent muscle mass and I had this kind of density to me that other people that I was training around didn't really have that followed more of a higher volume training programme or higher rep programme where they would do more sets and reps.
(20:14):
But mainly let's just talk about the reps that they were kind of doing higher rep training, so they were still kind of building muscle mass, but they didn't have the strength behind them. And I feel like, and this is me kind of talking bro science now I'm going outside of the research, I'm talking anecdote now. The people that I trained around, the ones that were strong had this kind of density where their muscle mass was just so present. They had that kind of rugby thick league player vibe where the people that lifted weights at a higher rep range that's still built muscle had a kind of decent physique, but their muscle mass looked like if they stopped training for a couple of weeks, it would kind of wither away. I don't know what that is. Maybe that's just something that I saw. But I think that that is coming down to that strength and that training, those type two muscle fibres and getting them really strong.
(21:14):
I have a high makeup of type two muscle fibres. I think the Maori population islanders in general do Samoans, Tongans, Fijians have a lot of type two muscle fibres. So I think I fall into that category as a Maori. So I feel like I thrive under that kind of heavy explosive training. And when I've always done higher rep ranges, I felt like I was almost treading water, not really making progress. I would still look okay, but I never felt like a pump. I never felt like I was making steady progress. I was always just kind of looking forward to heavy lifting. But what I kind of did was have this kind of protocol where I did two strength programmes and then one hypertrophy programme and that hypertrophy programme was often higher rep, but now I don't necessarily do it that way, like two low rep programmes and then one high rep programme.
(22:09):
I just kind of auto-regulate how my body feels at the time. Juujitsu throws a spanner into that because I'm carrying an injury right now, but it does kind of beat the body up a bit, the elbows, the shoulders, the knees, the legs, but heavy lifting can take a toll on the joints. So I feel like you do need to deload from those heavy, heavy, heavy four to six or even two to six rep ranges for a while and then come back, which is why this is a segue to plug myself but the built by Brock eight week challenge. When we do an eight week challenge, we do eight weeks of really intense programming. And then if you stay in Brock, we have this two week challenge prep programme where we go away from heavy lifting, we kind of exit out of training close to failure and we do more single leg work.
(23:04):
We do kind of higher rep work to work on imbalances and to work on deloading, the central nervous system so that when we do jump into the next challenge, we can smash it with a fresh body and a fresh mind and a fresh perspective. And we take the calories up to maintenance too in that time to kind of reset the body. It's not a deload programme, it's just where we kind of think about recovery and we optimise it by bringing our calories up to maintenance. If we're focusing on fat loss and just kind of hovering here, doing some single leg work, working on imbalances, working on muscle groups that we maybe potentially don't focus on accessory wise in the challenge and then we go into the challenge fresh and smash it. So that was kind of I guess my experience with doing heavy lifting consistently. But if you are looking at getting strong and building muscle, I think that kind of four to eight rep range is going to be your friend. Now I want to look at what rep ranges are the best for certain exercises because I do think that certain exercises do lend themselves to different rep ranges and
(24:21):
A lot of people get this wrong and don't understand why. But let me look at a classic example for you. Let's look at a conventional deadlift or even a sumo deadlift. Have you ever done a deadlift for 15 reps? Ask yourself. I have personally and it sucks. And the main reason that it sucks is because of two reasons. The first one is your heart or your lungs, however you want to look at it gets tired before any muscle group on your body does because it's a bloody workout. The deadlift is one of the most energy sapping exercises out there. Doing that 15 times in 1 cent with a load that's challenging, absolutely smashes you. It really does. So often if you're doing 15 reps, you're not stopping because your muscles are tired or because
(25:21):
Of anything else, then the fact that you're absolutely buggered your cardio is getting a workout before the muscles are, which is fine. But if you want to workout cardio, go run, go swim, go bike, go cycle, because that's a more optimal way to do that. If you're going to do deadlifts, bring the rep range down and actually stop when your muscles are telling you when to stop, not your heart because we're not trying to work that when we're deadlifting. So keep that in mind with deadlift. The first thing that will screw you up if you do higher reps on a deadlift is your heart or your lungs are going to give away first. But the second thing is it's a lot of isometric tension, which just means, so isometric just kind of means something that is stationary and squeezing. If you're doing a plank, that's an isometric exercise for your core.
(26:09):
It's not moving. Your abs aren't going through a range of motion in a plank. They're just kind of squeezing, which is what isometric tension is. And when you're doing a deadlift, your lower back or your erector spin, a muscles are in that kind of isometric hold and they're squeezing and that's fine if you're doing three reps, five reps, eight reps, but if you do 15 reps, they can often fatigue and that can sometimes impact your performance in the deadlift and then your performance throughout the entire workout and then potentially can encourage injury. So with a deadlift, what rep range is going to be the best for that? For me, I would sit somewhere between one and eight because that is when I think we are loading the muscles and our heart and lungs aren't giving away before our target muscles are. Let's look at a squat.
(27:04):
We have a similar deal going on with the squat. The squat is a very calorically expensive energy sapping exercise. So if we're going to squat for 15 reps, we have that lower back doing the similar thing your erector spine is are isometrically tensing throughout the entire time. So I wouldn't necessarily do squats for 15 reps. The biggest I would go is probably 10, maybe 12. But I really do like those low rep range, kind of three, two to six squats because we're able to really load up these big muscle groups, the quads, the glutes, which can handle a lot of weight, and we are getting them fatigued as opposed to our lungs and our heart. So I do want you to consider what exercises we are doing for what rep ranges. Let's transition to a different exercise. Let's look at the face pull where you have the cable at about eyebrow height. If you're on YouTube, you can see if you're listening, you can't see, just imagine. And there's a cable in front of you with a rope on it and you pull the rope to your forehead and your elbows kind of pull back in line with your shoulder blades. That's a standing face pull. If you've ever tried doing that exercise for six reps, you'll use a lot of momentum.
(28:25):
You will end up having to lean forward a lot at the start of the rep and then lean back a lot at the end of the rep because that exercise is not the best exercise for lifting heavy. However, I do like doing that exercise for somewhere between 10 to 15 to 20 reps because with that exercise then you're using a lighter weight so you don't have to lean forward and lean back as you lift the weight, but you can also kind of focus on getting that burn with that exercise, getting close to failure, getting close to that reps and reserve. But I think doing that via higher reps is more effective than doing it via low reps. Just for the face pull in this example, let's look at doing a bicep curl.
(29:11):
A barbell bicep kill I think is a great exercise to go heavy and get the biceps really challenged with heavy weight. So barbell bicep kill for four reps. Hell yeah, you can six reps, eight reps, 10 reps, 12 reps. I'm a big fan. I do think going higher than that 15 to 20 once again for this specific exercise, which is kind of like the squat of the bicep curls, I wouldn't say that is particularly fruitful and I would prefer to sit at that lower rep range. That's not to say doing high rep barbell bicep curls is not a possible option. It definitely is and maybe it will work, but I just think the lower one would work. However, if we went to the cables, if we did a low pully bicep curl where we're kind of facing into the cables and we're curling in, I don't think four to six reps would be very good with that because once again, it's not very stable.
(30:09):
So you could put on a slightly lighter load where you could get somewhere between 10 to 20 reps and I think that's going to be a better use of your time for that exercise. So as you can see, different rep ranges are better for different exercises. Sometimes exercises just don't lend themselves to doing heavy reps and some exercises don't lend themselves to doing a tonne of reps. Okay, let's look at a bench press. We can do this kind of lower end heavy work on the bench press and you can also do higher rep work on the bench press too, but I don't feel like you are reaping all the benefits if you're doing high rep 20 to 30 rep bench press when you can get that sort of rep range from doing something like cable, chest flies, incline cable, chest flies, declining cable chest flies, because with those exercises you can't necessarily do four to six reps.
(31:07):
You kind of can, but once again, I feel like with certain exercises you're doing kind of more potential damage to ligaments and connective tissues between muscles than you are working out any muscle groups. Let's look at more exercises. I think the leg press is a bit of a hybrid. I do go low low reps sometimes on leg press, but I would prefer to do it on the squat. I go high reps on the leg press and I actually really like that option because if you're doing high reps on the leg press, that's kind of like you're doing it on the squat, but with the squat you're lower back is loaded the entire time. So you get that isometric tension where you can injure your lower back or just get really strong discomfort. But with a leg press, your lower back is not loaded, you're not standing up, you're seated and the weight's coming down onto you.
(32:01):
So you can get 20 reps, 30 reps with a similar movement pattern of a squat, but the benefit of higher reps and go into complete failure. And then on the leg press, it's very convenient to do drop sets as well so you can really kind of work up and get this filthy pump and get more reps in and get closer to fatigue that way. Once again, that one to two reps and reserve is what we're focusing on, not necessarily the magic number of reps that we're doing, but I feel like instead of going, I'm putting, oh, Brock said that the best rep range for building muscle is anywhere between four to eight. So every exercise I'm doing, I'm doing four to eight reps. Look, it's not a bad idea, but some exercises they just don't fit that four to eight category and that's where you can change it.
(32:50):
Especially when we look at body weight exercises like pushups doing four to eight pushups, it's not going to be that hard if you're just learning pushups. It might be if you just got your first pushup, congratulations. But if you are trying to get a workout, four to eight pushups is not going to be a very good deal for your chest, triceps and shoulders. But four to eight reps on the bench press is four to eight reps with dumbbell chest press is also four to eight reps on a chest press machine. Yeah, that's good. But with that kind of pushup, you want to get that higher rep range to get close to failure and that's going to suit that exercise even more. And then there's things like warmups with warmups. The goal isn't to build muscle, it's to prepare yourself for the movement. So when you are, oh, let me just turn that off.
(33:42):
Sorry, my wife just tried to FaceTime me. So with the exercises, different rep ranges do matter with warmups, as I was touching on, the goal is not to build muscle, so the goal is to get blood into the muscle and to get that body warmed up to that specific movement that you're going to go into. So with warmups, you don't have to think, oh, rxi four to eight is the most optimal rep range in the world. I'm only doing four to eight with warmups, you can still do 20 reps, you can still do 10 each side. You can do different options for whatever exercise you're warming up for. Let me give you an example for what I did the other day because I'm posting my full workout on YouTube very soon. It's an upper body workout where I just finished last week, my five by five programme that I was doing to get stronger.
(34:36):
And four, I was doing incline bench press and with my incline bench press before I did a working set, I did two sets of 10 each side of cable external rotator cuff to get my rotator cuffs warm for the bench press because I don't want to get injured and I also want them to be able to handle the heavy weight that I'm about to lift. So I did two sets of teenage each side, and then I did my first warmup sets of that exercise and I have a saying that you are never too strong to warm up with the bar. So with the incline bench press, even though I was about to do 120 kilos for five by five, I warmed up with the bar, which is 20 kilos, and I did about 15 to 20 reps because I'm trying to get this movement pattern warm for me to lift incredibly heavy.
(35:28):
So I did 15 to 20 reps on the bar, then I put 72 25 plates on, so that was 70 kilos and I think I did about 10 reps on that. I did 10 reps. And then after that I put on, what did I put on? Oh, I put on another 15 plate each side. So I got to a hundred and then I did eight reps of a hundred I think, and then I moved it up to 110 and I did no a hundred kilos. I did five reps and then I did 110 kilos, which is only 10 kilos away from my first working set, and I only did that for three reps. And then I went into my first working set of 120 and I did five sets of five and I successfully nailed all my sets, but so for warmups, rep rangers kind of play a different role, so it's not really, oh, I do four to eight because that's the perfect reps that Brock said to do.
(36:28):
Don't do that. Warmups are different. Warm downs are different if you do warm downs. Stretching is different. Dynamic stretches are different. I'm strictly talking about building muscle and doing exercises in a gym or training at home to transform your body with strength and also with building muscle. And I've just found through reading research, through training a lot of people through training myself almost every day, that four to eight rep range, if you can get there, get there because that's going to be one of the most, what's the word? I guess, bang for buck ways of training, four to eight women. Don't be scared of lifting heavy. It's not going to make you bulky. It's just going to get you a return in the gym. Guys really embrace lifting heavy too. I do want to encourage you not to be fearful of injury, even though it is.
(37:30):
Look, risk of injury does go up when we do lift heavier. So I do want you to be aware of that. But when you prioritise your form, never, never, never at the expense of the amount of weight that you're lifting, then it's always going to be safe. Training at the gym is pretty safe. Training in sports, much more dangerous, much more dangerous. So many more people get injured in sport than they do in the gym. Trust me. I'm not just saying, trust me, there is research on that. Bodybuilding is actually relatively safe in terms of lifting weights. People get injured more so in sports like soccer or football and even in jujitsu, if you've been doing juujitsu for a while, I've been doing it for almost two years, coming up soon, you get injured a lot. I'm harbouring a right knee injury. I have a grade one tear in my lateral collateral in my knee.
(38:24):
It's slowly getting better, but I never got injured. Before I started jujitsu. I was always a hundred percent healthy. Body was working a million percent optimally, but now I'm moving in different planes of moving. I'm working with other human bodies that are alive. But to come back to you training in the gym, don't be fearful of getting injured. I really want you to embrace that kind of heavier rep range, but embrace it, but never, never, never at the expense of lifting too heavy for what your body and your current strength capacity can handle. Okay? So if you're doing a squat and you can squat nice and sexy as the grass with a hundred, but then you're like, oh, but if I do 110, I can do it, but I just squat halfway. Don't do that. That's not an intelligent way to programme. Keep the same form, put the weight on.
(39:17):
We don't change our technique to fit a certain weight. We change the weight to fit our technique. And if we get a weight and we feel like we try to go heavier, but then we compromise form, we stop and we go, okay, maybe I can get that next week. But don't continue to try and push through. That's where we get into bad habits and bad habits get you in big trouble. Bad habits cause bad injuries, let's say. So keep that in mind. Be careful, but be courageous at the same time. There's this balance of be smart, but take a risk because those challenging reps, as I said before, those involuntary reps that are slow where your muscles are like, oh, I'm going to have to recruit more motor units to get the weight up. That's where we build muscle and that's where we want to hang out for majority of our programmes.
(40:13):
Hopefully that helps in terms of rep ranges, if you have any questions, please fire them through. Put them in the comment section or send them through to team@teambrockashbury.com. I do want to end this podcast on something that you can take away, which is a productivity hack of a, it's like a kitchen timer. You can use your phone if you want to. I don't use my phone because I'm usually using it to work, but I just bought this thing of Amazon and it's a kitchen clock and it's magnetic. So I put it on the whiteboard above where I work and I put 15 minutes on or however long the task that I'm doing I think is going to take, I put it on and then I go and it's like a race against the clock. And I find that this is such a productivity hack because when you have a lot to do, it's easy just to get overwhelmed and just sit around and do nothing or contemplate and think of what you're going to do.
(41:04):
I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. Oh no, I better not. And then you just end up scrolling on your phone for five minutes and then you come back, okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And then someone calls you and then you're on the phone and then you're like, oh, I'm on the phone. So I'm back on Instagram. And then you're kind of bouncing back and forth. I feel like when you have this timer, you create this fake deadline or this real deadline, but to a fake schedule that you're applying to yourself and you are saying, I'm giving this 10 minutes, I'm giving this 20 minutes, I'm giving this two hours. You can time it, you can twist it for as long it goes up to 99 minutes. I've only used it to go up to 15 to 20 minutes or 30 minutes for the different tasks that I'm doing.
(41:47):
I'll sit down and say, all right, I'm going to take 30 minutes to empty my emails. Let's go bang. If I'm writing my daily email, or sorry, my motivational emails where I send out three a week. If you want to sign up the links in the description, if I'm writing them, I could sit around all day and think about what to say, but I need to create a amount of time that I'm going to dedicate to it or else I'll just take forever. So, alright, this one's taking me 15 minutes today, bang, go. So I'm sitting there typing and I'm focused. I feel like this is a productivity hack, which is going to help me to be more effective with my time, but also I think it can help you as well. So I just wanted to share that. It's just something that I've started as of maybe three or four days ago.
(42:37):
And if you feel like that will help you, then I think you should get one. I got it off Amazon. You can use your phone. As I said, you can maybe put a timer on somewhere else, but I like it that I have to push it, turn it bang go, and it counts down in front of me and it gives me this kind of false sense of pressure. It's like if you have an exam that's six months away, you're not going to study for it until maybe six days away. But if you had a timer counting down in front of you for that whole six months, it would be at the front of your mind and you'd be like, oh man, I've only got this amount of time. So you would be prepared, you would come correct, you would do the amount of work possible because you just have that awareness of something. That's all it is. It's that awareness that you need to really stay focused. And if you don't have that awareness, if you don't have that deadline, then there's no one telling you things to do. It's easy, especially when you work for yourself or if you're doing something that's only guided by you and no one's overseeing you, it's really easy to let yourself down. This is what I found out, it's really easy to let yourself down because no one gets impacted. Only you. And if you let yourself down, no one will know.
(43:54):
And this clock that you have is kind of like a manager or a supervisor watching over you kind of pestering you, annoying you, but it's good. It helps you get shit done. And I'd really recommend trying it. I'm loving it. Obviously I don't put it on for something like this, like the podcast, but for things that I think need time to do, I will do it. It's like a rest period. If you don't time your rest period, it's very unlikely that you're going to rest for that amount of time. You're most probably going to open your phone, you're going to be watching people's stories for five minutes and then you're going to go, shit, I rested too long. But if you time your rest period, that's a different story, man. You're going to stick to it. You're going to feel the vibration on your watching.
(44:35):
You're going to go, bang, I'm going in. You've kept accountable. You've had a supervisor floating over you on top of your shoulder saying, Hey mate, let's go. It's like with face-to-face. Personal training, once again, in race periods, I chat to my clients. I don't sit around and tell them my life story. I like to walk as well to help to get their steps up, their physical activity levels, because often they work sedentary jobs. So we walk around and often when we're walking around, we'll talk, maybe they're talking about their weekend, maybe they're asking me about my life, maybe they're asking me about supplements. Maybe they're asking me about why is the programme like this Brock? And I'm explaining it as I'm walking.
(45:16):
But then they could just keep talking forever and we could have a risk period of 10 minutes. But what I would say when I feel my watch go off and the rest is up, I'll say, tell me after. Let's not talk throughout the set. Let's go. And then bang. That's kind of what this timer is doing. It's like a personal trainer in your ear saying, all right, shut up now. Go and do your work. And it's really helped me and I hope it really helps you guys. That is episode number 41 of the Better with Brock podcast. We have some more guests coming up soon. I do enjoy these solo podcasts. If you do enjoy them, please leave me some nice reviews on whatever podcast platform that you use. I've got this whole studio now so I can have people in. I've got the lighting, I've got the camera, I've got the mic, I've got the LED lights, I've got all the programmes and everything. So looking forward to really growing this and getting some of my interesting guests on having some good conversations and bringing some value to you. So yeah, that's it. See ya.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to the Better with Brock podcast. My name is Brock Ashby and this is my podcast. Welcome to episode number 40 where we're going to be breaking down things that just need to go in the fitness industry, things that are overrated, things that plain and simple just suck. We're going to break down why combo exercises such as burpees need to go, why intermittent fasting is overrated, why starving yourself for fat loss is unsustainable. Why cheap meals need to go and I seriously just don't know why they stick around. Why protein powders for different sexes just don't make sense. Why comparing yourself to others doesn't make sense as well. And lastly, why editing and social media filters just does not help our mental health. Let's get into it.
(00:49):
Before I jump into the nitty gritty of the podcast, I just want to announce that the Built by Brock eight week challenge is now taking signups, so you can now sign up for the Built by Brock eight Week Challenge, which begins on the 7th of August. Right now we are in the challenge prep programme, which is the programmes in between challenges where we're focusing on bringing our body back to a place of, let's say, homeostasis of maintenance, where we can rejuvenate our metabolism if we've been pursuing fat loss in the previous challenges, and I really encourage you to sign up early if you can, before the 7th of August because then you can dive into the knowledge that I have available for you in the challenge. You can get used to the way that I programme. You can start getting a handle on your nutrition before the challenge officially starts, because once it starts, we go really hard and that's why this Challenge Prep programme exists.
(01:43):
It ultimately acts as a little bit of a deload, although it's not an official deload. It kind of, we work on things such as imbalances, so there's a lot of unilateral work. Anyway, the programme or the challenge is called eight Years In Eight Weeks because as of this month, the 15th of July, I have been a personal trainer for over eight years, and in this eight weeks of the challenge you're going to be getting eight years of what I've learned on the gym floor, what I've learned on all my courses, what I've learned from transforming bodies face-to-face as a personal trainer, but also online. So the link to sign up is on team brock ashby.com, which is my website, or if you're on Instagram, you can hit the link of my bio or it'll be in the link of the show notes, whatever platform you're listening to this on.
(02:36):
Another update that I have is the team Brock Ashby Body Quarters that I'm doing this podcast in this beautiful podcast studio is actually in a gym, so behind the camera is a gym. Last night I was putting up a set of mirrors with Jamal and they're all up. So the next thing to come in is just the logos, which is going to be very simple, and then I just want one or two more machines and then we are done. It is complete, and there will be a tonne of content coming out of here for my clients that are using my app with all the educational videos and exercise videos that you get with the programmes that I provide for you, but also, yeah, social content as well, and then there'll be some face-to-face stuff happening for people that are based in Sydney. Okay, let's jump into the podcast.
(03:24):
Man, it's really hot. I just got some new lights. If you're watching this on YouTube, the lighting looks very nice, but it's very hot here, so I may have to transition to a singlet for the next podcast or even during this one. First of all, okay, why combo exercises suck. Let's determine or define what a combo exercise is first. A combo exercise is not a compound exercise. They're different. So a compound exercise, let's define that first. A compound exercise is an exercise that works more than one muscle group, so it's not an isolation exercise like a bicep curl. It's a compound exercise like a bench press, which works your chest, your triceps, and your shoulders. A bicep curl just works your bicep isolation compound. When we're talking about combo exercises, it's not talking about the combo of muscles that you're using. It's talking about literally a combo of exercises that are done in one.
(04:21):
The prime example is the burpee, and I've got beef with the burpee. I've got beef, beef. Well, let's try that again. 1, 2, 3. I've got beef with the burpee. For anyone that wants to maximise their results and build muscle, please take burpees out of your programme. If you've signed up to a team Brock HPI programme, you will not see burpees. Look, I did them back in the day when I didn't know as much and I was an early personal trainer, but I've become much wiser and much more knowledgeable and burpees have to go. If you were serious about building muscle and getting strong as well, and the reason for this is because if you are doing a combo exercise, there's always going to be a discrepancy in what weight you can lift for each exercise. Okay, let's look at the burpee. You have a pushup and a jump squat.
(05:17):
Basically, you go down to the floor. Sometimes you don't have to do a pushup, but if you're going to do a real burpee, then you want to do a pushup at the bottom, get some extra gains, and then you're going to stand up and your feet have to leave the ground. So that's technically a jump. How much weight could you do a pushup with? You could probably add 20 kg on your back if you're relatively strong. You could probably do more if you're even stronger than that, but you could add, let's say 10 to 20 kilos on your back when you're doing a pushup. Let's go to a jump squat. How much weight could you jump squat? Okay, you can do a body weight jump squat easy. Could you hold a 20 kilo dumbbell or weight and jump pretty easy? Could you do 40 kilos or 50 kilos? Yeah, I think you could.
(06:05):
We can squat way more than we can push up. If we just break it down to the fundamentals of let's say bodybuilding exercises in replacement of a pushup and a jump squat, let's say just like a normal barbell back squat and a chest press or a bench press, we can squat way more than we can bench press, and that's because our legs are much bigger muscles than our chest, shoulders and triceps. So I like to speak from personal experience because I don't want to just make up random numbers. My one rep max for my back squat is not that impressive. It's 170 kg. For one, my bench press, one rep max is about 150 kilos, so there's a 20 kilo difference there, but even if we're doing reps, I can squat way more than I can bench press. So if I'm going to do them together, there's going to be a muscle group that's going to get left behind, so my legs aren't going to get as much of a workout as my chest is.
(07:04):
Okay, and the same goes with a jump squat and a burpee, sorry, a jump squat and the pushup within the burpee, your chest, shoulders and triceps are probably going to get more of a workout than your legs are. Now the thing with the burpee though is it has the combo exercises, but it also adds in this element of cardiovascular exercise. So your heart is getting a work, you're getting tired, and that's usually okay if you're trying to increase your cardiovascular output, but with the burpee, you're doing a pushup and a jump squat under fatigue, and this is why so many people have come to me injured, they were doing burpees, or even worse, they were doing a box jump under fatigue. So fatigue is good. Sometimes we want that, especially when we're trying to do cardio, but this is why burpees do not belong in your cardio programme.
(07:54):
Burpees, there's too high of a level of skill to a burpee to actually get absolutely flogged to doing it because you're probably going to screw up a pushup. You might hurt your shoulder, you're probably going to screw up the jump squat. You might hurt your ankle, you might hurt your knee if you're going to do cardio, run row swim cycle, do these things because you can push yourself so hard and there's no risk of injury. You're just going to get tired and then kind of stop. But when you're doing a burpee, you're going to get tired and you're not going to stop Naturally, your body's going to stop because you're going to get injured or you're just going to be doing sloppy form. We've all seen the CrossFit bloopers of burpees just going absolutely wrong. So they're just such an average exercise. They're not a good cardio exercise.
(08:43):
They're not a good muscle building exercise. I understand if CrossFitters want to do them because they're an exercise specific to the sport, you sometimes have to do them in the workout of the day or the wad, so I get that. But other than that, if you really want to build muscle, get them out. Don't do burpees, do pushups separately in a separate set. Do squats in a separate set because even if you look at it like doing a squat and a pushup together, if you're doing a squat and then doing a pushup and doing a squat and doing a pushup, when you're doing the pushup, your legs are resting. When you're doing the squat, your chest is resting, so there's no real constant tension of the muscle when you're doing these two alternating exercises. Rep for rep, I would rather a super set where you do pushups until failure and then you do squats until failure because then at least you have this constant tension continually working the muscles that you're targeting, right?
(09:42):
Another lame combo exercise that I've seen online is things like you do a split squat and then you might dumbbell, curl, split squat, dumbbell curl, and if you don't know what a split squat is, it's like a lunge that's static, so you're not lunging forward and lunging back. You're just going up and down, so your feet stay stationary. That is the difference between a split squat and a lunge. So they'll do like a split squat and then they'll curl or even they'll lunge forward, curl, lunge back. How much can we lunge? Okay, let's say in my current programme, I'm doing 30 kilo of dumbbells in my hand and I'm lunging, or I'm doing split squats around 30 kilos is what I use for somewhere between eight to 10 reps. If I'm going to curl, my biceps aren't too strong, I might be doing like 12.5 kilos, 15 kilos for eight to 10 reps for my bicep curls.
(10:37):
Can you see the discrepancy there? There's literally 20 kilos in each dumbbell that's on my hand. That's 40 kilos total. If we look at it like holding two dumbbells side by side that my legs are missing out on just because my biceps can't keep up with my legs. That's why combo exercise are horrific for your gains. They look cool on Instagram and that's why they're so popular. Influencers are lazy. They're like, Hmm, what can I do that looks cool? It looks time efficient. Ah, it's going to be perfect for these time short mothers out there that are at home with babies I know. So I'm going to post a deadlift and a curl or a split squat and a lateral raise. I'm going to put them together, and then it's going to be like, yeah, you only need 10 to 15 minutes to train. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that.
(11:23):
I'll film that. I'll get in my little sports bra, little booty, booty shorts, and I'll post it and it'll go viral and it does, and then people are doing it and they're wondering why they're not getting results. Yes, any movement is better than no movement, but that's super basic, okay? If you are in this position of going from no movement to some movement, that's cool, but this podcast is probably not for you because you're probably already moving and I'm about taking you from where you are, which could be a basic level of understanding, just getting into training to taking you to what optimal looks like and optimal doesn't look like doing a deadlift and then doing a curl with the same weight because your deadlift muscles that you're trying to do, which your hamstringing and glutes, they are not going to be getting stimulus from 12.5 kilos in each hand.
(12:11):
Your biceps will, but your deadlifts will not be, they'll be suffering, so they'll be getting weaker. Your biceps will be increasing, but you're just wasting your time. You may as well do a set of deadlift for eight to 10 with three times the weight and then getting a different weight and doing the curls after. That's why combo exercises suck. It sounds time efficient, but it's actually not because you're wasting time in the gym. So what's the cost there? What's the cost? It's the time spent in the gym. So combo exercises, if you see them in your programme, if you see them on your social media feed, if you see them anywhere, get rid of them. Okay? I hate them. Moving on, why intermittent fasting is overrated for fat loss. This is a hot topic and it's been for years, and I don't know why, but intermittent fasting is not superior for fat loss.
(13:00):
Intermittent fasting is a tool in the box. It's an option. A lot of people harp on about the autophagy of a calorie deficit, sorry, of intermittent fasting, but I jumped ahead there. But the calorie deficit is the thing that creates the autophagy. It creates the same autophagy than intermittent fasting. So where's the real benefit? If you want to intermittent fast, you can do it. If it helps with your adherence, if it helps with you sticking to calories, if it helps with you not bingeing on your calories and stuff like that, that's cool, alright? But just understand that there's no magic to it. There's no unicorn, there's no special science to it. All you're literally doing is prolonging the time that you're eating and you're condensing the amount of time that you're eating and you're prolonging the time that you're not eating. So you're fasting is longer, but you're eating is in a more condensed window.
(13:58):
And when you look at it like that, if you're eating for less time throughout the day, let's say from midday to 8:00 PM as opposed to eating throughout the entire day, you're probably going to lose some weight if that is your goal because you're literally eating for less time throughout the day. I'm trying to make it sound really simple because it is when you break it down, but let's say you have a condensed window, but you eat just as many calories. If you eat 3000 calories between 12:00 PM and 8:00 PM it's the same as having 3000 calories throughout the day, between 6:00 AM and 8:00 PM okay? 3000 calories is 3000 calories. It's kind of like if you were to, I don't know, leave a hose on to fill up a swimming pool and you lift it from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM and then you lift it from 12:00 PM to 8:00 PM but it was on a faster, there was more water coming up between 12 to 8:00 PM and it ended up filling the pool at the same level, then you're going to have the same, the pool's still the same size, you've filled it up, it's just taken a different amount of time, and that's kind of how you want to look at intermittent fasting.
(15:12):
If you wake up and breakfast always screws you up, you just grab a chocolate croissant and you're like, oh, damnit, you put butter on it. Oh, damnit. Oh, I'm going to go to Starbucks and have my frappuccino with caramel sauce, chocolate sprinkles, and whipped cream with my chocolate croissant with butter all over it, and that's like five to 600 calories. If you don't do that, if you skipped that meal, if you skipped it, you would save yourself 500 to 600 calories. So then people go, when they do independent fasting, they start skipping breakfast and start eating between 12 and 8:00 PM which is the most common protocol that people use, which is what I knew it as, the lean gains protocol. When people did that, they started losing weight. So it was like, oh, intermittent fasting is the thing that made me lose fat because when I started fasting, I lost weight.
(16:06):
But when you really break it down, it wasn't intermittent fasting. It was the fact that you're consuming less calories, therefore you created a larger calorie deficit or a calorie deficit in general and you started losing weight. So I want to highlight this because even with my clients that have access to all the education in the world that I know, once again eight years of personal training, they're still like, Hey Brock, I'm getting frustrated. I'm not losing weight and I'm intermittent fasting. And then I'm like, Hey, we've talked about this, or Hey, it's not special. Hey, it's not magical. Hey, we just need to create this calorie deficit. So maybe you can bump your steps up or maybe you can do some recipe swaps or some food swaps to reduce your calories. Or you could even try shortening your intermittent fasting window. So you instead of eating from 12 to 8:00 PM maybe you eat from 12 to 6:00 PM that might help as well.
(17:04):
Whatever way you create the calorie deficit, that's cool. Just create it. And that can look different for many people, and that's why intermittent fasting can work for some people. For some people, intermittent fasting works for them for fat loss, so they do lose body fat because them skipping that breakfast meal really helps them out. For me, it just makes me starving, mate. And then I get to lunchtime and I'm a ravenous horse and I just eat as much as I can and I probably overeat what I potentially would've eaten if I just had breakfast. I find myself more controlled and more composed when I'm consistently eating. If I don't ask my wife, ask my friends and family if I'm hungry, I'm just not the best person to be around. That could be me being a souk, but I literally need a lot of calories. I a high metabolic rate, high level of physical activity, high level of brain output in terms of the amount of work that I do in a day.
(17:55):
So I need the calories and when I don't have them, my energy dips and I'm not the best person to be around. So personally intimate and fasting doesn't work for me. It makes me more frustrated. Some people claim that they're more clear-minded. I find myself to be more frustrated and thinking about food more often. So it's very personable. It's very individual. So just go with what works for you. Intermittent fasting can be great. It can also be a waste of time, and there's no magical theory that blesses you when you're doing intermittent fasting to make you lose fat faster. It's just the fact that it may help you create a calorie deficit, but I like to create it throughout a just constant regular eating, just creating a calorie deficit through that, and that works fine for me and most of my clients. So there we go. Intermittent fasting is overrated. Another thing that's overrated is completely starving yourself for fat loss. It's very unsustainable, and I want to break down why that happens. So a lot of people say, Hey Brock, they sign up to one of my programmes. Hey Brock, I'm trying to lose body fat.
(19:03):
I've been on 1500 calories and I'm losing weight, but I don't know what to do next. Or they'll say, Hey, rock, I need to lose weight. What should my calories be? And then I'll give them a 20% calorie deficit or a 500 calorie calorie deficit, so they lose around half a kilo or one pound of body weight per week, but they want to lose extreme amounts very quickly. Hey, Brock, the calories that you gave me are too high because they've seen all these body transformations online or they've heard these crazy stories where someone lost eight kilos and four weeks and I want that type of thing. Brock, why is this so slow? And the reason that I go for the slow and steady approach, which isn't really that slow, to be honest, losing a kilo a week or half a kilo a week, so one pound or two pounds per week, that's actually a really decent paced rate of fat loss because when you go too fast often you can be depriving yourself.
(20:01):
And when motivation is high, it's very easy to handle the levels of hunger. So that's why people can stick to these aggressive diets for three days, seven days, up to two weeks. But after that, when motivation starts to dip a little bit, when you get really hungry because you're on these low calories and your training takes a dive because you don't have the energy to perform, that's when you give up and you just end up bingeing. You end up in a cycle of getting back to where you were and then some. So that's why it's unsustainable, because you are literally depriving yourself of too much at a rate and your body, you're fighting the urges of your body. If your body was stupid, it would just let you continue starving yourself, and then you would just most probably die back in the day when we didn't have access to food.
(20:52):
But your body is taught to try and preserve your life, so as you go in this extreme calorie deficit, your body sends hunger signals because those hunger signals back in the day were sent to drive you to find food, but now we don't have to really find food. We can just buy food for most people in the world. Obviously I don't want to be ignorant to people that don't live in such a fortunate world, but now we can just go and buy food. So that's ultimately what we do. Our hunger signals are just through the roof. We're so hungry we can't handle it, and then we just go on this rampage where we just eat and takeaways, and I've been there. That's why I'm talking about this from experience in so much detail because I've been stuck in this cycle for ages. I've done it, I've been there, it sucks. I was there for years actually, and I was a personal trainer while I was doing this. I was overcoming this while I was trying to coach people to overcome this.
(21:49):
It was a very difficult time, and that's why I like to talk about this sort of stuff. And every time I tried to go very aggressive with my diet, I always bounced back and I wouldn't progress at a slower rate. I'd actually regress. I would go backwards. And then when I started to think, okay, I don't need to eliminate the foods that I like, I don't need to go so aggressive and starve myself and dip my energy just because I think I thought that's how I lost fat. I can just be a bit more reserved. And when I did that, sure, the progress was a bit slower than when I starved myself, but at least it worked in the long term. I would look back after a month and be like, oh, wow, I've actually kept this weight off and I've continued to progress. So it's more of like a delayed gratification vibe where you lose body fat just at a slower rate, but you eventually get there.
(22:44):
What's better getting there in eight weeks or trying to get there in eight days bingeing and then being in a worse spot in two weeks and doing that four times and then you're in a worse place than you started, as opposed to a better place just because you had a little bit more patience. And that's the sort of game that I like to play with myself, and I like to play with my clients, and that's how we get really good results, and that's why I'm a bit anti starving yourself and aggressive calorie drift. Its look, there is a time and a place and a person that can handle aggressive calorie deficits, and that person usually is someone carrying quite a decent amount of body fat. You can go quite aggressive because you have the stored energy, which is your body fat. So if you go a bit more aggressive, you may have slightly lower hunger signals because you have that stored energy in body fat.
(23:37):
But if you're really lean, let's say you're 15% body fat or less, or even 10% body fat or less, which is pretty lean, 12% less, if you're around this spot and you go quite aggressive because you don't have those body fat stores or stored energy and you just really have the diet and your muscles, if you go very aggressive, you can run the risk of potentially losing muscle mass, and that is no good because that's what we work hard for in the gym. So look aggressive. It does depend on the person. I'm not writing it off. You can go aggressive for calorie deficit and get good results and then just go to maintenance after if that works for you. But what I like to do is go for around 1% of your body weight per week. So I'm 90 kilos on average, so that would mean I would lose 900 grammes per week.
(24:33):
That seems to be the sweet spot in terms of not being too fast, that it's unsustainable, that I deprive myself of food and end up in this binge eating cycle. It's also not too slow that I lose motivation, and that's one thing that we have to be aware of when we are pursuing fat loss. The slow and steady approach is cool, but if it's too slow, then you can just think, oh, this isn't working, and then just give up. If you lost 50 grammes over the week and you're like 50 grammes, you can go to the bathroom and lose 50 grammes. That's nothing. We need to move at a steady rate, and that's why that 1% of your body weight per week is a good rule. Yeah, too slow. You'll give up. Think of if you were doing it yourself, imagine trying to save for a house and you're saving a dollar a week, it's too slow.
(25:25):
You're going to give up. You need to save at least 500 bucks a week or a thousand bucks a week or 200 a week, something significant that you can actually see the progress if you can't physically see the progress, and it's like 50 grammes a week, what am I doing here? It's too slow. So there's the nuance in terms of starving yourself for fat loss, it's overrated. You don't need to do it. If you are carrying more body fat, you can do it. If you're lean, I wouldn't recommend it. I'd recommend the slow and steady approach. Okay, why do cheap meals suck? I'll tell you why. Cheap meals suck. Cheap meals are just like a, I feel like cheat meals are the fitness excuse for just going off your diet and you just justify it with you. Just stick a big band-aid over it and go, it was a cheat meal, man. It was a cheap meal. It's good for my psychology.
(26:17):
It's just an excuse for you to get off your over restricted diet. Let's admit it. Let's be honest for a second. If you are starving yourself, coming back to the previous point and depriving yourself off the foods that you love because you need to stick to this 1200 calorie diet or 1500 calorie diet, and then you get to the weekend, you're like, oh, yes, it's Sunday. It's my cheap meal day. I'm going to just smash all this food because it's a cheap meal. I'm going to eat 4,000, 5,000 calories on a Sunday and it's going to be beautiful. And then Monday to Saturday, I'm going to continue back to the grind. All you're doing is kind of, if you're aware of it or not, you're just compensating for the amount of deprivation you're putting your body through. And this is why I'm flexible dieting because
(27:16):
It's how we sustain this diet. So once a week, me and my wife, we get burgers. Sometimes it's twice a week and we get burgers and I have a big appetite. I have a large calorie intake, so I get three burgers and we get chips, we get sweet potato chips, and we get normal fries as well, like potato chips, sweet potato fries, yum. And that is at least 2000 calories in one meal at least because the burgers that I get are pretty high in calories. They're pretty high in fat. They have mayos and they have meat that isn't the leanest like Wagyu meat and the calories are very high, and every time I post it on social media, people will dmm me and put cheat meal. And I'm like, no, no, no. This is just part of my diet. I've made it work today. I've made it work.
(28:12):
I'm not cheating on my diet. My diet's not so restrictive that I'm like, oh, I need a burger. I'm going to die. I could have a burger every day if I wanted to. I even had three scoops of ice cream every day and lost over five kilos in 30 days. The 30 day ice cream challenge, I did it in 2019 with my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time. We did it together to prove that you can eat ice cream and lose body fat. And it's not that ice cream is the secret fat loss food that no one's eating. It's not that I highly advocate high sugar intake. It was just to prove a point that you need to create a calorie deficit set in your drop body fat moving on. So I have them, but it's not a cheap meal because I account for them in my calories.
(29:00):
So I have around 3,500 to 4,000 calories per day at the moment, and I've been there for a while. That is my maintenance slash slight calorie surplus of 5%. I'm bouncing between the both because at the moment I'm in a slow and steady build, and that 2000 calories that I would have with the burgers is half of my calorie intake, and I'm having it for dinner and one meal. So that leaves me like breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, whatever I eat throughout that day. If that is like 2000 calories or 1500 calories, I am literally sticking to my diet. If I have these three burgers, this is the beauty of flexible dieting, I'm able to eat these burgers without going, oh man, I feel terrible. I'm guilty. I just smashed my calories. Because what a cheat meal is, is like you eat whatever you would every day, but then you go beyond it by just absolutely splurging and just going crazy with the calories.
(30:12):
Let's say it kind of is a cheap meal, but it's within my calories, so it's not a cheap meal, if that makes sense. I've stopped needing cheat meals or stopped the terminology of cheat meals. I don't actually require it in my life because my food choices that I have on a daily basis are actually really enjoyable that I don't have to feel like I need to bounce off my diet and go and cheat. If you're in a boring marriage and you're like, oh, I'm just going to go cheat on my wife or cheat on my husband, my day-to-day, life is so boring, then I'm just going to come back and slip into my normal relationship like, oh yeah, this is cool. I'm depriving myself, depriving myself, depriving myself, so bored, la, la, la, la, la. Oh, and then the weekend comes again. Have a little fling.
(30:57):
It's kind of like the same thing, which is I guess why they called it like a cheat meal, cheating on your diet. But the thing is, you can just allow for these moments, and once you take the black and white thinking of or dichotomous thinking of good foods and bad foods out of your vocabulary with your diet, then you can understand that you can have a slice of pizza during the day, and it doesn't have to be a cheat meal. You can have a AMI soup pudding, and that's not a cheat dessert. You can have pancakes for breakfast and still make your calories, protein, fibre targets work for you throughout the day and still hit your calories and macros and still make progress. It's just incredible. I think the most common compliment that I get with my coaching is people saying like, Brock, I did not understand.
(31:45):
I could still eat tasty food and lose body fat, and I've kept it off for ages because I feel like I'm not on a diet and you can check out the podcasts, the previous ones that I've done with my clients before. I didn't pay them extra to say, Hey, Brock, you really transformed my life with the way that you taught me flexible dieting, just what happened. That was probably their biggest thing that they enjoyed about working with me and understanding is like, wow, I don't have to eat chicken, rice and broccoli every day and just eat oats with water and skull down. Protein shakes straight after the gym. And it's like they could have a chicken salad after training, they could have a sandwich, they could have a decent lasagna meal for dinner and still hit their quota of calories, macros and fibre. They could have some garlic bread.
(32:39):
They could go to a wedding and have some cake. Most people, when they get into fitness, they don't associate themselves with being able to do that and achieving a steady physique, which is why I'm so open about what I eat because I have a decent physique and I'm not obsessive around the no sugar, no this, no that type of diet. I'm not saying that everyone should go and just eat sugar and eat high fat foods and just eat burgers and eat pizza and eat donuts. I'm definitely not trying to glorify that way of eating because that gets a lot of people in trouble. But if you have control and if you have boundaries within your diet, you can enjoy those things on the occasion. Like I said, I have burgers maybe once or twice a week. That's not much. That's a couple of meals throughout the week.
(33:35):
And I might eat five meals a day, four meals a day. So if I have four meals a day over the week, that's 28 meals. If only one or two of those meals are like burgers, like whoopty do, that's such a small ratio. I like the 80 20 rule as well, like 20% delicious food, 80% nutritious food. So most of your diet is coming from foods high in fibre, fruits and vegetables, lean cuts of meat, or maybe even not lean cuts of meat, but just like meat grains. If you eat grains, things like this, really high quality foods, but 20% of your food could come from delicious things that you absolutely love that people go, oh, you're having a cheap meal, bro. 20% of your diet coming up from that, man, that's cool. If you want to have a shot of tequila on Saturday, go ahead.
(34:23):
If you want to have a burger like I do or three, go ahead. Just make it work. We're in it for the long haul. That's what you have to understand. We're not out here trying to diet for eight weeks, get lean, take some photos, and then just get fat. No, we're trying to improve our health step by step by step and continue to get better as we go through this fitness thing. It's not a fad. It needs to become a lifestyle because else you're like, oh yeah, I used to do fitness. That used to be me, but I don't want you to fall into that category. I want fitness to be a part of your life and make it work. Alright, let's move on. Cheap meals suck. Why protein powders for different sexes are terrible. Quick story I was going through, we ran out of protein powder the other day and I just jumped down to IGA, which is a grocery store here in Australia. It's pretty bad to be honest. I'm big fan of Woollies. Nick's would be Cole's iga A would be somewhere down the bottom, but it's the closest to us. And we walk there with our daughter and it's fun. So we go there and the only protein powder that was vanilla flavoured, what my wife wanted was one called The Lady Shake. And then they have this thing called the Man Shake as well.
(35:42):
And look, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but it's protein powder, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman, it does the same thing to your body. I think that's it. I think that's all I want to say on that. I had a shake. I had two scoops of the lady shake. Oh, not today. Yesterday. Oh no. Now what? I've just had two scoops of the lady shake. Now what's going to happen? Am I going to wake up with double dss? Am I going to have to change my pronouns? It's just marketing. It's just marketing. It seems specific to ladies, oh wow, this is made for me. This is going to be better for my body. It does the same thing. Alright, we order have protein targets that we need to hit, and whether we're a man or a woman, we need to hit certain levels of protein. And it doesn't matter what that kind of protein powder is made up of, it's all filtered milk anyway. It's all just hitting our protein target. Ladies need less protein throughout the day because they generally weigh less and they generally have less muscle mass than men. That's the only difference
(36:49):
Just because they're smaller humans.
(36:53):
So if you see things that are targeted to men and women for protein powder, just ignore it. It's lame. It's lame marketing, it might work for them. It seems like their company's expanding, seeing it around more. But anyway, don't fall for it. It's just protein powder. I don't need to spend time. You guys are smart enough to fall for that. Anyway. Okay, last point. Why comparing yourself to others and editing and filters are no good. And this isn't even part of the fitness industry. It's kind of like the marketing industry, but it's so rampant in the fitness industry that I feel like I need to talk about this. Alright? There's a famous quote that everyone quotes now and it's like, comparison is the thief of joy. And when we compare ourselves to other people, it does nothing for us. And I do stand by that. I think it's a great quote because if I compared myself to Sea Bum or Chris, the full-time Olympia bodybuilding champion, I would have probably body dysmorphia and think that I'm tiny. I would feel terrible about my body. My confidence would probably get low. I would look at his life and his physique and just be like, man, this sucks,
(38:13):
But there's no need for me to do that. This guy has been training for a long time as well, but he's also been enhanced
(38:23):
Through peds. He's also dedicated his entire life to just training. So have I, but just in a different manner. I haven't been trying to body build. I haven't trying to compete and get really lean on stage or get really huge, just really want to get strong and stuff like that. So if I compared myself to him, even though I feel like I have a decent physique, if I compared myself to the best physique in the world or in Olympia, that's a recipe for disaster, even me. And then there could be people that are just getting into fitness, comparing their physics to me, who's been training for 15 years, and then they could get upset with their progress. Like, well, Brock's this. Or they could compare themselves to Chris Bumstead and be like, whoa. He's like light years ahead of brogue. Why don't I look like Chris? So you can compare yourself up to me or to Chris Sted or anyone in between. And it's like that is not going to do anything for you but destroy you.
(39:30):
And it's the same thing with if you compare yourself to people with money. Let's say you look at Alex Hormoze cashed up, sells books, sells business education, builds businesses, all this type of stuff lives this great life flies private jet. He's obviously a hard worker and he is worked his ass off. I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but if you compare yourself to him, what's that going to do for you? The amount of time that you spend comparing yourself to these people is time lost that you could spend utilising to get to a similar place to them if you wanted to or just to get to a better place than where you are today, which is what we really have to strive for. Not what is your best friend making? Not what is your dad making? What is this guy online making, but what am I making and how can I improve that? Not how can I get this version of what this person has because then you're comparing yourself to another person. And the thing we have to understand, especially when it comes to fitness, we have genetics, we have schedules, we have time allocation, we have commitments, we have hobbies, we have interests.
(40:42):
And within all of those things, we have different levels of mental health, mental fortitude. Some people can handle the utmost adversity, they can just handle it. They can just handle things that you can't for some reason. And people are built different. Some people get into the gym and they will just grind. They'll be shaking on all the reps and they'll struggle, struggle, struggle. And they'll be training their ass off. And because they're so close to failure, they're going to be building solid muscle, getting really strong. And then I've trained people in the gym that have sometimes just, they just wanted to give up. They couldn't do it. And I'd say,
(41:32):
You've got five reps in the tank. Nah, Brock, that's me. I'm done. I couldn't get any more if I tried. And I'm like, no, you could. And they're like, Brock, I can't. And I slowly learned over time that that was just their limit. And maybe I could have forced them through it and lost the client, or I could have just said, okay, and then try to get them to push it a little bit more later on. But I'm saying this because everyone's different. Some people can just go bonkers. And some people, some people can just sit in silence. Some people, some people love reading books. Some people like listening to audiobooks. Everyone's different. And that's why we can't compare ourselves, whether we're comparing our bank accounts or our bodies or anything else in between our cars, our houses, our love and our relationships. Oh, look at that couple. They look so cute online. Me and my boyfriend don't do that. That sucks. That doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't compare this stuff. Okay? I heard Jordans say something. He was like, don't compare your chapter three to someone else's Chapter 97, something like that. They were different numbers, but you get what I mean. You could just be starting off in the gym. You can't compare yourself to Chris. He's been doing it for years. You are just getting into it.
(42:54):
We're all built different, okay? Another thing is genetically, okay, let's put me in the example once again. Okay, so genetically I don't train my arms. I feel like my arms get enough work with heavy compounds like bench presses, bent over rows, pullups, and all this type of stuff that gets my arms enough work, so I don't train my arms on their own. And I feel like they're pretty decent. So if you're getting into the gym, you'd be like, I want arms like Brock or whatever, but I've never really trained them on their own, so there's no point. That's just like genetically, it grows faster there. But if you look at my shoulders and lats, if we're going to get into bodybuilding, they grow a bit slower than other areas. So if I was to look at someone else with big shoulders and big lats, then I could get down because genetically they're just a bit harder to build for me.
(43:51):
We are all made different. And that's why fitness is so unique. And that's why I think signing up to a coach just because of what they look like is not the best way because you're not going to look like them ever. I've had to sit clients down and say, Hey, this whole thing that you have of, I want to look like you. It's not going to work. And that's not in an arrogant way. I'm so above someone. And that's not like you can't have a physique similar to that level, but you're never going to look like someone. Never, never, never, never. You can't change the width of your hips because it's bones, right? You can change muscles, but things like some people have smaller wrists, some people have thicker wrists. People with thicker wrists are probably going to be much stronger because they have more bone density and bigger bones to bear, bigger loads, right?
(44:45):
Just stop it. Don't compare yourself to other people. Compare yourself to where you are and to where you want to be, not where X person is or y person is. Just do your best. And that's where I want to end this podcast. Just straight up, simple advice today. A few things that suck and you need to avoid and y, and also just what you need to focus on. So I hope this helps. If you're enjoying these podcasts, please like, subscribe, share on whatever platform that you're listening to them on. I really appreciate it. If you want certain guests on, please let me know in the comments. And if you want certain topics that you want to be expanded on, please let me know as well. This podcast is literally guided by its listeners, and that's why I make it to try and bring value to you. I'll see you in the next podcast.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 39 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. My name is Brock Ashby. I'm an online personal trainer based here in Sydney, but train people all over the world. In today's episode, we're going to be breaking down many things. First of all, the team Brock Ashby, body Quarter. That's what I've decided to call the headquarters, but I've called it the Body Quarter for obvious reasons. I'm a body transformation coach and there's going to be a lot more transforming of bodies than transforming of heads here. My PED or performance enhancing drugs, accusations that I've been getting and how I achieved my natural transformation, Mr. Beast's body transformation, the passing, the sad passing of Joe Linda or Joe Aesthetics. The impact of photo editing on our little fitness, well, actually it's quite big, but our fitness, I guess, social media scene, fitness industry on the internet, and three facts about creatine that you most probably didn't know. Let's get into it.
(00:01:06):
Let's start with the team. Brock Ashby Body Quarters. So I'm doing this podcast from the Body Quarters. It's been a dream of mine to have this. The vision is literally almost complete. We have dumbbells from one kilo all the way up to 50 kilos. I don't do pounds here. We're based in Sydney, Australia. I'm from New Zealand. I've always dealt with the metric system. I'm just looking around the gym right here. It's like behind me. So the podcast studio's here, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see the podcast studio's here. I've got the acoustic panels, the table, the mics, the LEDs, but behind the camera, like I'm looking at the gym, I have a hack squat leg press machine that is two machines in one. Put that in last week with my father-in-Law. I got two adjustable benches. We got a 45 degree back extension, get the old hamming glutes going.
(00:02:02):
I have a squat rack that doubles as a cable machine, so one side is the cable machine and one side is the squat rack. It's absolutely awesome. Great use of space as well in the corner. I can't really see here because the lights are blocking me, but in the corner I have a trap bar, I have a safety bar, I have a sled. I've got two barbells, two standard barbells, 20 kilos or 45 pounds if you're from the states. And then I have a female bar, which is 15 kilos. I dunno what that is. I think that's 35 pounds, a 15 kilo barbell as well for my female clients that I'll be training here, have an exercise ball, I got farmers carry options to work grip strength and isometric back strength as well. And then I have this box that I just installed this week that stores the dip bar.
(00:02:53):
And there's a seat that you can put on the cable machine to create a lap pull down, which is awesome. That's also where the weighted dip belt goes, the foam rollers, the add rollout, and the different handles for the cable machine. My desk is also here with the whiteboard for all the content that I make for my clients. I got a fridge and I got a storage place, and that's pretty much it in the podcast studio where I'm sitting right now. Still need to add the mirrors and I just got a quote back on, putting in some logos, getting the team Brock Ashby branding in here. So yeah, that's pretty much the body quarters rundown I am thinking. So if you're watching on YouTube, once again, I appreciate you because you get the views up. I'm really trying to grow the better with Brock podcast, YouTube channel, because I created a separate channel I was posting on my YouTube channel.
(00:03:46):
Now it's all on my Better with Brock podcast, YouTube channel. So if you could subscribe there, that'll really help me out. And even if you don't watch it, just if you have YouTube premium, you can listen to it even when you close your phone. If you have the free YouTube, then you aren't able to do that. But anyway, behind me, I have the acoustic panels, I have the LED light that I just got, but there's also this kind of empty space on the wall. So when I do a solo podcast, you can't see it too much. You kind of can. But then when I do a podcast where I have a guest in here, there is this part of the wall that has something there. So I am wanting your input on what you think I should get on this wall. Should I get a logo there?
(00:04:28):
Should I get a quote there? Should I get a photo of someone here? I don't know. But put it in the comments. Let me know what you think I should get on this wall behind me because I want it to be cool. So yeah, I'm not training anyone here yet. I will be having a limited amount of one-to-one personal training sessions here throughout the week to disperse into the work that I already do for my online coaching business team, Brock Ashby, where I coach people all around the world and we achieve incredible body transformations. I do eight week challenges, but I also do one-to-one personalised coaching, and I have guides as well that you can do that. So you calculate your calories and macros under my videos that I provide to help you with that. Anyway, stop talking about myself and my programmes that I do, but just letting you know that the body quarter is almost finished. So the goal here is to be able to film my content, whatever I want to do, really doubling down on YouTube, which is growing, which is also, I'm at 12 and a half thousand subscribers there. That's just going to keep growing. And obviously shooting content for short form as well, coaching people here, and then ultimately coaching coaches here, running seminars, which will be really cool. That's the future of this place, which will be open very soon.
(00:05:52):
Alright, let's talk about performance and enhancing drugs. Peds. Facebook has been going bonkers lately at me, apparently I'm a PED user. There's people dropping comments and the thing that just baffles me is this is someone who's supposedly Christian, three kids and he's talking shit to an online personal trainer on the other side of the world. What are you doing with your time, mate? What are your kids doing when you're sitting there writing Instagram comments back to me or Facebook comments? What's your wife doing? Why don't you hang out with your wife? Or if you're at work, why don't you do some work? Or if you're doing this on your spare time, you have better things to do than write. I hate juice heads that just lying to their audience taking testosterone. It just baffles me. I would never ever write a comment like that. And there is a lot of people online, don't get me wrong, that abuse performance, enhancing drugs and say that they have never used it or that they're not on it and they clearly are and they're lying to their audience saying, Hey man, buy my programmes.
(00:07:03):
You can achieve my physique. I'm sitting here thinking, yeah, right, but I'm not going to grab my phone and go, you're such a liar. You should go to hell if he wants to do that, if she wants to do that. A lot of females do it too. If they want to do that, that's their decision, right? But I sleep very well at night knowing that I'm not in that boat, and I don't know how people like this sleep at night, to be honest, knowing that they're just lying to their audience and it's how they make a living and a very generous living too. There's honest people out in the world. There's people building, there's people teaching, right? There's people healing people, there's people educating people, and then there's these people manipulating people.
(00:07:51):
I don't like it too, but if you come accusing me for taking performance, enhancing drugs and just lying to my audience, then I'm going to come back at you, which I have been doing alright, and thank you for everyone who's been saying, Brock, don't let the comments get to your head. Don't even worry about them. Why do you even acknowledge these comments? Look, I do it for a reason. It does benefit engagement. I'm not going to lie when people comment. So I like having a go at them because you come at me, I'll come at you. But also, I like figuring out who these people are and how far they're going to go and what is their limit to their accusations that they've been making. For example, this guy is like, you're a juice head. You are just lying to your audience. You're taking steroids.
(00:08:35):
And I was like, okay, I've been training 15 years, blah, blah, blah. Okay, he didn't want to borrow it. Whatever man, you're a liar, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So I said to this guy, then if I was to get my blood work, what markers would you want to see? Then he swore at me, he goes, I don't give a F about that stuff. You're a liar, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So obviously his limit is actually knowing what your blood work looks like if you are using performance enhancing drugs. And he didn't even know. He didn't even take me up on the offer. He was just like, I don't care if you do that or not. You're just the F and this and you're F and that. So that's why I kind of having a go throwing out the rod and reeling it in to see how far they're actually going to go.
(00:09:23):
Yeah, Facebook's just absurd for it. It was a video that I posted, which was called Stop Doing These exercises if you want to Build Muscle in 2023. And I was doing exercises that don't lend themselves well to building muscle. And people hated it. They were like, why this? Why that? You're just the juice head and you take storage. And I was like, okay, well then why is this exercise good for building muscle? And once again, I didn't have an answer. Some guys just like, you're a clown. And I said, why am I a clown? Spark? I remember your name, spark, I remember your name. And he didn't reply.
(00:10:07):
I have very thick skin. I, I've gone through a lot of things in my life to realise that there's much more important things to spend your time on in terms of dwelling. Obviously I'm spending time writing back to the comments, but I don't lose any sleep. I don't think about, oh, what should I say? I like, oh, these guys might be right. Maybe I am performance, performance enhanced athlete. I don't waste my time on it, but it's just interesting to see why these people would write these comments. But I also get it on the other side that there are people just in the fitness industry actually just abusing and lying to people, manipulating people. And I came across his Instagram account, his name's go, I dunno if it's his real name. Go, oh, my phone's not here. Let me just do a quick Google search. Go Instagram. What's his Instagram? I want to give him props. Goobs U2. John Dorsey. And he is just an absolute angel of the fitness industry. Angel's probably not the right word. He's kind of tearing people down.
(00:11:15):
He's exposing influences. I think he calls them shit flus or something like that. What's his Instagram bio? It's actually really funny because he's calling out people that are editing photos and lying to their audience. His Insta account's growing, which is awesome because he's actually bringing attention to the amount of lies in the fitness industry. What's his bio? Oh, mate, I just got kicked off. I just got sent a code. I don't even know what it is, mate. Just let me get on Instagram. You serious? Just want to see his, just want to read it. Here we go. Online, coach dog dad, your favourite influencer's, least favourite influencer. And he has a green screen behind him and he goes, welcome to the show. And then he pretty much tears them, tears them apart because people are lying. So it's good to see people out there that are doing that work.
(00:12:14):
You could say doing God's work because he'll literally zoom into the back of a photo and there's meant to be a straight wooden panel, or there's meant to be a straight locker from taking a gym selfie, but it kind of curves in or it goes out. So it might curve into their waist because they've edited the photo, they've pinched their waist in so that you think they have a smaller waist and they really do. And then if their shoulders are up top, they'll kind of push them out so that they have this wider shoulder, smaller waist look, this attractive V taper physique that people will look at and go, wow, that's amazing. I want to look like that. I'm going to sign up to your programme. So these people that are being manipulated have no idea. But thanks to go's work, I put myself in this category too.
(00:13:04):
Hopefully sharing the right information and letting people know what's out there. We are taking these people down. And the sad thing is, and we'll get this later on when we talk about photo editing, is some of these people already have amazing physiques, like top 1% in the world, and they're still editing their picks. It's like it's not good enough to be the top 1%. They want to be the top 0.5%. They already have a six pack. They already have big arms, they already have a big chest, big shoulders, big quads, whatever. But they further accentuate their bodies to take themselves to that kind of alien like physique and get more likes and go viral and get more clients and make more money until you get caught, until the clients that sign up realise that they're not getting the same results that they've been promised. I was looking at Go's content last night and he literally, I got a message from, so there was a lady posting sign up and this can happen in 90 days.
(00:14:11):
And the lady that was in the 90 day photo, like a transformation messaged GU and was like, Hey, this influencer is using a photo of me that's one year apart or two years apart that I achieved without her. And she's using it to promote a 90 day transformation when really it took one to two years and he called her out on that. There is a lot of this, and I've actually been approached on Instagram from different accounts saying, Hey Brock, if you want transformation pictures, you can buy them off us. And I didn't even know this was a thing. Excuse me, you can buy transformation photos. I was like, what? Here I am trying to transform people's bodies in real life. And there's personal trainers, online coaches that are probably not real coaches on the gym floor that are just buying transformations and posting them, getting clients because that's social proof. That's a really strong way to get business posting. Body transformations is well used to be. They used to go viral For me, I used to get a lot of work from people seeing what I've done with other people. Nowadays, people kind of don't really care. I think I posted a transformation that I achieved with someone over eight weeks and what he achieved in 10 years really turned his life around, which is incredible. And it only got a hundred likes, maybe even less. And I was just like, man, anyway.
(00:15:47):
But I like to think I get it from real people, but there's people out there, I can't believe you can buy body transformation photos. Like what's next? Just hiring someone to write your programmes and saying that you write the programmes. Actually, that's probably too obvious. That's probably already been done. But yeah, you have to be careful out there. In the fitness industry, I've been accused, if you've followed me for a while, you'll know that my physique hasn't really changed that much. I've been pretty similar since let's say 2017, which is like six years. I've maybe gained three or four kilos of muscle. I do look bigger. I do look fuller. I am stronger. But what do you expect of six years of hard training? Five to six days a week? Of course I'm going to get stronger. Of course, I'm going to build muscle. I'm a coach.
(00:16:36):
I'm following evidence-based principles, of course I'm going to build muscle. And just because I've arrived at this point, if there's no context between what's happening between now and the years that I've had of training, then okay, maybe I am a steroid user, but if you follow me, then you'll know that I've just been training hard for ages. I won't lie and say that I don't have good genetics because I do. I definitely think, and I want to dive into the research. That's one thing I want to do soon is just look at how genetics, especially in Polynesian cultures, specifically the Maori culture, how they build muscle quite easily. I would say I'm a misam. I build muscle quite easily.
(00:17:20):
And I think that comes down to my genetics. My cousins are very muscular. They eat whatever they want and they still lift, but they're huge. And our bones are quite dense as well. We have quite thick wrists. Some people you'll just go up to them and put your hand around their wrist. If you're on YouTube, you can see this and you just put your finger over their wrist like that. Not a lot of people can do that to me. And I'm not saying that I'm this specimen, but my genetics, I was blessed with good bone density. And if you have good bone density, then you can bear more weights, you can carry more weight, therefore you're probably going to be stronger in the gym. So if you train consistently, you were built for building muscle. So I definitely have those genetics that definitely, I guess kickstarted my progress or helped me see good results initially. And when you see good results from something, you often tend to do it more. That's how the motivational cycle works.
(00:18:21):
You try something, you get results, and then you repeat that thing. You try something, you get results, and then you continue to do that thing, right? When you try something and you don't get results, you have to have a certain level of motivation to continue going. Maybe your doctor said that you're going to have a heart attack. And even though you're training and you're not getting the results, you still have to do it because you've had a heart attack and you need to push. You need to continue. Okay, look, I haven't lost any weight this week. I need to be better with my diet. I'm going to continue. I haven't built muscle in a month. Maybe my training's a bit off, but I'm going to keep going because I don't want to have a heart attack and leave my family behind with X and Y.
(00:19:02):
Try things, get results and repeat. That's the motivational cycle that I think ways work. And that definitely helped me to continue to push on with my training. So let me just kind of break down how I achieved my natural transformation. Then I'm going to break into other things. So I was a sporty kid growing up. I'm going to do a very, very brief one. I've already broken down how I built 21 kgs of muscle, which sounds okay, look, maybe that sounds like I've taken performance enhancing drugs, but there's context to it that I'll quickly explain briefly. If you do really want to know in detail, go back to the first episode of this podcast. The audio is pretty average. The video is pretty average. But anyway, you get the point, go back to it and watch it, and then you'll have a real true understanding of how I achieved my transformation.
(00:19:53):
Because building 21 kilos of muscle mass and actually being leaner and stronger and more muscular than before, look, that smells like peds to me as well, but there's a reason that that happened. Okay? So I was a sporty kid, I was always into sport. My dad called me monkey, my mom called me skinny. I was like this little wiry kid, always lean, running around doing things. I love doing things, riding my bike, climbing trees, throwing balls around. When I played sport, I played softball, volleyball, rugby, rugby league touch, and I did athletics as well. So I was very sporty. I played representative sport for all the sports that I played for. I was playing at, I guess you could say state representative or regional. I even represented my island or south island for rugby. I was asked to play New Zealand for one sport touch, but I couldn't afford it at the time.
(00:20:53):
I had to pay for it, which sucked. So I was quite, I guess gifted naturally with coordination and actually enjoying physical activity. And that kind of pushed me into sport. And then as you get older, as I pushed into high school, there was a gym at the high school that I went to. And my mate that I met Rob, he introduced me to weights. He had a bench press at home, so I met him in my rugby team, and then he had this chest at 12 years old, he had a chest. I was like, man, how did you get that chest? And it was because of bench press that he was doing at home. So when we hung out, I would do some bench press two, and then I got introduced to pushups. And then at high school we had a pushup competition. How many can you do in a minute?
(00:21:46):
And without any training, obviously I was doing bench press and pushups. I wasn't training for this specifically, but I got one of the records for the school. I think I got the third best in the school. And it's like the history of the school. And this is an old school. I don't know when it was founded, but it's probably, I don't know, 1800 something early, 19 hundreds. It's a very popular old school with rich tradition. And I got third for my year group, which was year nine. So as a 13-year-old, 14-year-old, I got third, which was, I remember it was 58 pushups in a minute. And it pissed me off because I got less than one press up per minute. And I wasn't even trying to get that. I was just going for it. And for the measure, you had to hit someone's fist every time for the pushup.
(00:22:34):
And if you didn't hit the fist, then it didn't count. So I remember I was just going for, I tried and I just banged it out. I got 58 pushups in 60 seconds, and my chest was sore for three days. It was so sore. But that really got me hooked. And I was like, maybe I'm quite good at this. So I actually practised that time and I kept practising and I ended up getting 65, which put me first or maybe second for my year, but then it just got out of control. There was this Asian guy called Yoshi who got 125, and I was just like, alright, mate, you win. I get it. He was just like this small shredded gymnast type guy. He absolutely killed it. And then I was like, okay, well maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, but that kind of got me into lifting weights.
(00:23:27):
And then at lunchtime, what do you usually do at lunchtime? You usually just sit around and talk to your mates. We used to play rugby, we used to play touch. We used to play league at lunch. But then it just got to a point where we just started lifting weights. Rob and I started lifting weights. And then my other friends, mi huddle, Eugene, Kaylee, we all started lifting weights at lunchtime, which was super fun. If it was raining, of course we'd lift. If it was sunny, maybe we'd go and play touch or we'd just hang out and laugh. Sometimes we wouldn't do it every single day, but most days it was like four out of the five days of the week. We were in the gym lifting weights, and it was just fun. We would laugh. We would joke in between sets. We didn't really know what we were doing, but we loved it.
(00:24:06):
So as I began to just fall in love with lifting weights and also playing sport, and then I was kind of getting curious with nutrition, I really started seeing big progress. And I went from being the smallest wiry kid, the smallest guy on the rugby field to let's just say one of the most muscular, I wouldn't say the biggest, because there's the Ford Pack, which are huge. I was a fallback. I was in the backs and I started getting pretty big. And my top weight at high school, I ended up getting to 85 kilos, which is about six or seven kilos lighter than I am now. But at 18 years old, 17 years old, that's pretty decent. So I was 85 kilos. I wasn't lean or anything. I think I had abs, but they weren't that impressive. But I was still pretty strong. I remember my form was probably a bit dodgy, but I had a trap bar shrug of 200 kilos. So I used to, at 17, 18 years old, it's pretty strong. I'd put 200 kilos on the barbell and shrug, and I had these huge traps. I had these huge traps for a minute just because I was obsessed with that exercise.
(00:25:18):
And like I said, I wasn't training very good. My technique wasn't on point. I realised that I was doing bench press wrong for ages. I was feeling it in my shoulders. My chest was quite small, my posture was over and I wasn't training perfectly, but I was building muscle. And I got to this point where I was 85 kilos in high school, and that showed that I responded very well. Obviously I played sport most weekends. I had rugby training, I had touch training, I was fit. I was doing sprint training at training for touch and for rugby and my other sports that I was doing. So I was always very super athletic, but I was responding very well. So it encouraged me once again in the motivational cycle to continue to push harder into training. And then as I kind of finished high school, I started kind of falling out of love with sport, but fell deeper in love with training and really doubled down.
(00:26:18):
And training was my outlet. It was the thing I needed to do every day. And then I started dabbling with nutrition because I was just eating whatever I wanted, which was a lot while I was playing sport and lifting weights all day. And when you're at school, you rack up a tonne of steps. You have PE class where we would play dodge ball, sometimes walking back and forth to class, even just say playing touch or playing rugby with your mates at lunchtime burns a tonne of calories. You're doing a lot of steps, a lot of physical activity. So I was eating a lot, but then when I stopped doing sport, and then I started studying, and then I got into music. I wanted to be this lean one direction, Zane Malick looking type dude. So I did a lot of wrong things nutritionally, but I ended up losing a tonne of weight.
(00:27:02):
And at my lowest, I've talked about this a lot, but I was eating like 1500 calories a day and I ended up getting down to 69 kilos. I was fitting in 28 waist jeans, which for me, looking back at it now, was very unhealthy for my height and my top weight. I was six foot, I think at the time, 85 kilos. And then I went from six foot to 69 kilos. I dropped so much weight and I was very lean. I lost a lot of my muscle mass that I built, and I got down to this low weight over time. But I was doing silly things like eating one meal a day, eating 1500 calories a day, eating only low carb, not touching carbohydrates, very high protein diet. I also wasn't sleeping very much because I was so determined at this time to make a life for myself.
(00:27:59):
So I was down at 69 kilos, but then the twist happened. I ended up transitioning out of music back into sport or personal training, and I got into lifting. I got into eating more, and that's when my very rapid transformation went from 69 kilos. And I started gaining, and I started gaining, and I started training harder, and I started getting stronger, started training with good form because I was now a personal trainer. I was educated, I was learning and I was getting stronger. I was putting 20 plates on, I was putting 10 plates on, I was putting five plates on. I just kept getting stronger. And then I was surrounded by personal trainers. And what do personal trainers do in their spare time? They lift weights. So all we did was if we didn't have a client, if a client cancelled, we would go and lift weights.
(00:28:44):
What would we do on the weekends? We'd meet up and lift weights. So I was getting obsessed with lifting weights again, and I really loved it. And I started just packing on muscle. And I wasn't scared of food anymore. I didn't want to be this low calorie, low carbohydrate guy. I knew that I felt great on carbohydrates, so I was just eating. And I did go through this kind of eating disorder thing where I would really try to eliminate carbs and no ice cream, no cake, no this and no. So I would starve myself all day, just protein. And then I'd get home at night and I would end up bingeing, which wasn't healthy at all, man. It was a really, actually looking back at it, it was like a pretty dark time because I was living on my own in a city that I didn't have any family in.
(00:29:29):
I was working in a job that I was pretty new in. I was running my own business, and I'd never run a business before. So there's the thing of people not paying and how do you manage that? Do I put them on direct debit? Do I take cash? Do I just trust them to make bank payments? All this kind of stuff that you go through. As a personal trainer, I was doing on my own. I didn't have a car. I had to buy one. I was working as well on the weekends to supplement my income. But as I kind of got into personal training, I really loved it. I really got into training and to bring it back to my transformation, not my life at the time. I ended up putting a very decent physique back on. And it was in a quick timeframe because even though I was this skinny little gurkin that dropped down to 69 kilos, I still had that muscle memory.
(00:30:20):
I still knew how to train. I still had this passion for training, and I was training this whole time when I was 69 kilos. But I was just training differently. I was doing a lot of cardio. I was doing a lot of sprinting. I was doing a lot of high rep work. I was not training legs. I wanted skinny legs that looked skinny and skinny jeans. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's what I was doing. And I just kept doing that and I was going, I was going, I was going. But then when I started eating again and I started doing strength work and doing two reps, three reps, fours, five reps sitting in this strength rep range. And then I was not doing cardio. I was doing sprints or I wasn't even doing sprints sometimes. I was just lifting weights. I really started to pack on muscle, and I ended up getting to this weight eventually when I moved to Gold Coast.
(00:31:08):
And then I moved to Sydney when I was in Sydney, man. So from 2014 to 2017, this three year span, it still took me three years to get to a pretty good physique. This three year span, I went from 69 kilos up to 90 kilos. So 21 kilos of muscle I put on because when I was 90 kilos, I was lean, I had abs, I was leaner than I was in the 69 kilo photo. So that's the kind of background of my transformation in a shell. I could dive into specific training, periodization programmes that I went through and all this type of stuff. But that's the general gist. I went from being big, from being small and then to being big again. But through this transition, I gained awesome amounts of knowledge from becoming a qualified personal trainer and doing my own genuine curious research, doing a lot of courses, online courses, seminars as well with face-to-face, other personal trainers that I would deem as the greats, learning from them, success leaves clues and all of that stuff.
(00:32:24):
And then also muscle maturity. As you get older, your muscles begin to mature, and then as you progress through training, you also get stronger from applying progressive overload, which is a principle that you need to build muscle and to get stronger. So I was applying these things and just over time you get stronger and a stronger body is often a more muscular body. So over that time, I really kind of transformed my body naturally. All this to say, I haven't taken performance enhancing drugs. My friends laugh on Instagram because they know me, and I'm very transparent on this podcast. I'm very transparent on my social media channels as well. If I was taking steroids, I'd probably tell you, I would tell you, I just don't want to do it. Look, if I get older, if I'm done with having kids and I'm like, Hey, I might jump on some TRT, you never know.
(00:33:18):
I'm not opposed to it. I might do it later on, but we're talking years away. We're talking 50 years old. I'm turning 30 this year. I've got a lot of time to continue to try and take this natural physique wherever I want to take it. I haven't even peaked yet. I've got like six years until I peak. I think you peak at about 35 years old, and then it's all downhill from there. But man, I've got a bright future for building muscles. So if you think I'm on performance and hunting drugs now, it's only going to get worse.
(00:33:51):
Yeah, I haven't touched it. I don't want to touch it. I don't need to touch it. I'm a coach. I'm not stepping on stage for bodybuilding. And even if I ever competed in bodybuilding, I would do it in a natural class, which I know can just be like, you can take it on the off season and then go off cycle for the competition. And then your physiology is different if you have taken steroids before. But anyway, yeah, I haven't touched it, and that's the story of my natural transformation, believe me or don't. But that's how I would tell it. As I said, my friends, especially my childhood friends that lifted with me through high school, like Rob, me, huddle, Eugene, Kaylee, like these guys that I talked about that I lifted with at Christchurch Boys High School, when we went there, they'll vouch for me and they just think it's funny.
(00:34:43):
But I was just, I guess, ruthlessly committed to lifting weights and blessed with good genetics and good hard work ethic. And those three things are a pretty strong trifecta for awesome results. And the last thing I'll say on that, and this is definitely not from a narcissistic place, but a lot of the people that write those comments could either be jealous or just upset that they haven't got the same results. I'm not trying to say that people are jealous of my physique. That sounds so bigheaded crazy, but a lot of people are like, well, I've been lifting for 15 years and I don't look like that. And then my response to that is, okay, what about your genetics? What about your work ethic? And what about the actual quality of work that you put in? Because I was obsessed with it. I was only thinking about lifting weights for ages.
(00:35:34):
I studied it. I'm obsessed with it. I'm pairing it with awesome. Now, I'm aware that sleep is super important. I know that supplements can help. I know that things like caffeine and creatine and beta lanin can really help you with that. 15 years of training is 15 years of training, but it's also very different. If someone trained for 15 years versus me, maybe I've just worked harder than them. Maybe I took most of my sets closer to failure than them. Maybe I got a little bit more sleep than them. Maybe I did a well-structured programme and they didn't. So there's a tonne of things that needs to be considered when we're thinking about, oh yeah, I've trained for 10 years too, but I don't look like that. So you must be on performance enhancing drugs, or that's just a stupid argument because your training could be subpar in many ways, and maybe mine is too. Maybe someone that's trained 15 years looks way better than me. Natural hats off to them, man, I don't care. I'm very confident in my own skin, okay, I've achieved this physique. This is what's happened in 15 years.
(00:36:42):
What am I going to do now to change that? I've also picked up, which slows me down a bit, my knee sore. I knee barred myself as I got swept and half guard, I rolled the wrong way. And my knee, now my right leg doesn't straighten. And when I first started jiujitsu, my elbows were always sore. Sometimes my neck is super stiff, sometimes my lower back stiff, and it does affect my lifting. So I think if I didn't do that and I just invested my entire time into lifting weights and stuff, then I think I would have a better physique in terms of muscle and in terms of strength. But I choose to do jiujitsu because it's a fun thing for me physically. I've stepped away from sport, but now I'm doing sport again. And it's really fun. It's a solo sport, but it's also kind of like a team sport as well, because you roll with all the dudes and the chicks that are there and you make friendships and you're learning all the time.
(00:37:34):
You're learning ways to pass the guard to foot, lock to arm lock to choke, positional, play, open guard, all this type of stuff. You're learning all these techniques. So the way I explain it, like weights versus jujitsu, what is the best thing? I think weights are not alive. They don't move, they don't think for themselves. You just lift them. The harder you want to make it, you can just add more weight, or you can choose an exercise that's more difficult, let's say. But with Juujitsu, the thing that I like is you're dealing with another person that is trying to react, and they're alive and they think they have an ability to reason. So they might go for a move, and then you've got to shut that down. They might fake a move, and then you might fall for it, and then they have a countered to that.
(00:38:30):
But then what's your response to that? So it's live. It's like decision making on the spot. I find that very exciting. I'm also a very competitive person, so I like versing people. Not that I'm out there to smash people and take souls and come home and feel like a king because I've obliterated people in the gym. Because to be honest, that doesn't really happen. There's people that beat me up, but it's very fun to verse someone live. And I find that element that it brings to my life. Just supplements, lifting weights with lifting weights. I know that all the weight's going to do is make it harder for me. But with Jiujitsu, it's not just like, okay, I'm voting a strong guy. They're going to be much stronger. It's more difficult. It's like, okay, their technique's better. Okay? They're more explosive than me. Okay? They're way heavier than me. Okay? They're more flexible than me, okay? They're smarter than me. They have better technique than me. They've been doing it longer than me. There's all these factors. So it's very fun and stimulating. Alright, moving on to Mr. Beast's body transformation. So I made a video on this on YouTube, so I'll put it, if you are watching this on YouTube, it's not on my podcast account, it's on my actual YouTube account, which is just Bro Hashmi. But yeah, Mr. Beast went from obese to Mr. I am a beast.
(00:39:53):
He didn't talk about how much weight he dropped, but he definitely went from being mate, I would say 30, 35% body fat. Some people have claimed 40%, like Greg d, ett, Doucette, Greg Doucette, he said like 40% body fat and some other people have followed suit with him. I would say 30 to 35, but not any kind of decent muscle mass. So now he's hired a coach that he tagged on Instagram. He's been lifting weights pretty much every day that he has needed to in his programme. I don't think that's lifting weight seven days a week. I think he might do it five or six days a week, but he hasn't missed a day. And he's doing 12,500 steps a day, sometimes 15,000 steps a day. And he's completely transformed his body. And why am I talking about Mr. Beast? Well, most people know who he is.
(00:40:44):
He's the world's biggest YouTuber. He's got a video when he recreated Squid Games, that's got over 400 million views. He's got over a hundred million subscribers on YouTube. He's the most subscribed to YouTuber in the world. He's got multiple businesses, he's got multiple channels as well. He's got Mr. Beast Philanthropy, Mr. Beast Gaming. Mr. Beast reacts his channel and then he's got a backup channel. So he's got five channels at least. He's got employees, he's got feast balls, he's got just a tonne of Beast Burger. He's got a tonne of things going on. And the reason I want to talk about this is this guy is the busiest person, most driven person, very close to Elon Musk like behaviour, and a very successful driven guy. Steve Jobs type of vibe. And he still made time to transform his body. And I want to talk about the commitments he's made.
(00:41:41):
He's made it a non-negotiable. So there's another YouTuber called Arak. He's created a contract with him that if the first person that misses a day has to get a tattoo of the other person on their body, so he's got skin in the game, he's committed, which makes a big difference. And I think that that's what a lot of people don't do when they're trying to transform their body is they don't commit. They don't commit to it. I do like Betts. I'm not saying you have to lose weight and win money, but if you have a bet with your friend, I'm going to lose this much weight, or I'm going to go every day because sometimes losing a certain amount of weight isn't the best goal to have. I'm going to lose 10 kilos in 10 weeks. Maybe that's not the best. Maybe it's I'm going to go to the gym five times a week for 10 weeks.
(00:42:24):
Maybe that's good enough to get you to the gym. And if you do that at, your husband's going to take you out to the nicest restaurant in Sydney, something like that. Having a bit of skin in the game does help a bit of commitment. That's why I like to have prizes in my eight week challenges. That's why it adds a, a dangling carrot at the end. I think that does make a big difference. And I talked about this in the YouTube video that I made, but often we have to have a health scare or have a determining a turning point in our life to really commit to something like, to go back to what I said earlier, if you have a heart attack and then they're like, you have to train every day for at least 30 minutes. And that doesn't mean lifting weights. That means at least going for a 30 minute walk, a 30 minute run, a 30 minute weightlifting session, a 30 minute yoga session. So you're like, hold, damn, I do not want to leave this earth yet. I'm going to train every 30 minutes. It's a done deal. You're committed. You don't need any bets because you could lose your life.
(00:43:32):
That commitment takes you a long way. So whatever that is, find it. If you find that you're never really sticking to your goals, I feel like you haven't found the right drive. Sometimes all it takes is for you to just look at your kids and think, man, I wish I could get down there and play with them, but I can't because I'm too overweight, I'm too immobile. I'm toom flexible. I get tired. Even just that might just pump you up so much. You're like, man, I don't want my kid to grow up without having moments on the play mat playing peekaboo. Maybe that is just the strongest driving thing for you. And if it is, that's awesome. Use that as motivation to really smash your goals. I think that's such an awesome goal. Often a goal outside of yourself is a lot better when you're doing it for someone else.
(00:44:30):
This is why people do marathons for people when they're raising, say their best friend. And obviously this is terrible if this happens, but some people have friends and they get cancer and they need an operation and it costs a tonne of money that they don't have. So they sign up to a marathon or they create their own event and they say, we're running for cancer. We're raising money for this person to have it. When you have a goal that's outside of yourself, it's quite like you are responsible for something else. When you have a responsibility for something else, you have to show up. If it's just like you, you're like, I want two kilos of muscle. And in six months, if you don't do that, who's going to tell you off? No one who's going to keep you accountable? No one who's going to say, Hey, man, how much muscle have you built this week?
(00:45:20):
No one, no one is because you've only kept that deal to yourself. Even if you publicly tell people, they don't really care because it's just concerning them. So try to figure out a, it's an extrinsic goal. It's a goal that's out there maybe for someone else or for some event, or just try to think of a goal outside of yourself because that can help. And obviously this sounds quite hypocritical because I coach people through their body transformations and we're trying to lose X amount of kg. We're trying to do this or do that, but they have a strong enough why to sign up for my coaching. So I know that they have a reason that's like, Hey, I really want to make a change. So then we're focusing on numbers and stuff because if I'm just the coach out there saying like, Hey, what's your goal?
(00:46:08):
And okay, yeah, that's a cool goal. All right, let's do it. And I'm just like this airy fairy coach talking about goals and yeah, how do you feel? You feel good? Yeah. Cool. Let's keep going. I have people hire me for my expertise. So we're talking about numbers, we're talking about macros. We're talking about fibre. We're talking about how much steps we're doing and periodizing them for their goal. And it's very complex. But on a surface level, if you're not achieving goals, if you're not transforming your body, find a reason, a motivational drive that's going to stick, that's going to stick. Let's finish that sentence there. That's going to stick. Okay?
(00:46:46):
Yeah, that's been an awesome thing for Mr. Beast. He's probably dropped like 10 to 15% body fat, maybe even 20% body fat. He's almost got abs. Not that that means anything, but he's dropped significant. He definitely didn't have abs in his before photo. He was obese. And now I would say he's lean. He doesn't have abs, he's not shredded. Being shredded is a different, you step up a notch when you're shredded. You have veins, you have abs. He's lean, which is such a nice thing to see, especially with such an influential dude. He's got people following him everywhere.
(00:47:24):
So yeah, hats off to him and hopefully you're inspired by him. If he can do it. Anyone can. One thing that he said that he does with his steps that he has to do, he says that he takes phone calls while he's doing them. And I think this is a super key thing, because often we see step targets and we're like, man, those steps are too high. I can't get 12,500 steps. Then do something else when you're doing it so that, what's something monotonous that you do in your day where you're sitting on your ass?
(00:48:01):
Okay, let's say you take Zoom calls, instead of doing a zoom call, just standing there, sitting there, if possible, take your phone out for a walk and put on Zoom and then just walk while you do it. Maybe get a standing desk that can help, just changing from standing to sitting, but try to walk a bit more. Try to get those steps. And I love taking phone calls and getting up and walking. It's second nature now. I like taking the stairs instead of the elevator. That's second nature. Now. I like taking, especially when you step on an escalator, I love continuing to walk because a lot of people get to an escalator, they're like, ha. And they just stand there and it's like, mate, you're still on a piece of, you're still on a surface that can allow you to walk. You don't have to stop.
(00:48:49):
Keep walking. If you bus work, if you bus to work, then you can get off a stop early and then just continue to go, continue to walk to your destination. That's another trick. There's many things that we can do on the weekend. If you're going out to a cafe, maybe just, maybe you don't go to a cafe, you go to the park for a picnic and you play with your kids, or you play with your friends that are there. You take a ball and you throw it around. There's many ways that we can get intentional about our physical activity. And just like Mr. Beast takes phone calls and talks to people or has business meetings, you can also find ways to intervene in your life to make a successful body transformation. So Joe, Linda or Joe Aesthetics passed away. I think it's a couple of weeks ago now, and I was going to do a YouTube video on it, but I just wanted to talk about it on this. I'm not going to do the YouTube video because I don't actually know enough about him.
(00:49:53):
It seems that he was a really awesome dude, and I say that because a lot of people talked about his interactions. He had like 8 million followers on Instagram, and I think he replied back to a lot of comments. He had time for a lot of people. He became viral because he actually had this, I think they're saying it's a disease now, like this muscle tingling and maybe not tingling, but he would stretch out his chest and then move his fingers and his chest would ripple muscle rippling disease or something like that, and it would move like that. And he went viral from that. He also had a super impressive physique. He was enhanced. He was using peds, but he talked about it openly and acknowledged that he took it. And that's the biggest thing that I guess I respect him for. Because in the fitness industry, as we talked about in the start of this podcast, it's littered with people just lying about their PED abuse.
(00:50:52):
He talked about it. He talked about when he was younger, he really abused it. And then he was on TRT trying to manage it after, for a while closer to his passing. He was talking about it a bit more. He was jumping on a few podcasts. But yeah, he did use, and he talked about it openly, which is awesome. And even though he used and he had an incredible physique, his followers weren't being manipulated. He wasn't like, oh, you can look like me. It was more so he would say, this is what I do for training. Or he would just post funny videos where he was being sarcastic and stuff like that. So I think he was a good guy. I think he was funny. I think he really cared for his followers, which was really cool. As I said, he used and he talked about it, which was really awesome because he had that transparency around this incredible physique that he had.
(00:51:48):
It was very triangular. It was very v-shaped, very inspirational, aspirational to many young bodybuilding dudes. And often when you get young people into bodybuilding, they take whatever they hear from the biggest, strongest dudes and they replicate it. And that's what I did. So Lazar Angelo has come out maybe a couple of years ago. He's a bodybuilder that I really looked up to, talked about. He used albuterol. I didn't know anything about that. I was doing his programmes. I was reading his interviews. I was eating the foods that he ate. I was doing all this kind of stuff, and I didn't get the results that he did. I wasn't really that frustrated because I enjoyed training. But I think if I thought about it harder, I, I guess I was gutted that I followed his programme and didn't get the same results. I was even eating the same meals that he did, and they were boring bodybuilder meals like six to seven times a day.
(00:52:44):
I went through that. I didn't look like him. And he had these abs that were perfectly cased, and I was like, man, I want that. And I never got it following his meal plan and following his programme. So it was frustrating. But anyway, it's good to see people out there that are open about their testosterone use. They are saying with his passing away, because it's a big question mark, did peds make Joly pass away? I don't think you can draw that conclusion. I watched more plates, more dates, video on it, and I think they're saying he had a brain aneurysm. He had a sore neck a day or two before that. I think he had something to do with his blood, and he flew a lot, which isn't good for it. He also drunk a lot of caffeine, which thins the blood. So there could be something there.
(00:53:46):
I'm not sure. But I don't think it comes down to PED use because I think he was backing off it. I really don't have the answers for that. I think there's probably more videos up to date on it. I guess I just wanted to bring attention to it because it's sad that a fitness influencer that I would say isn't ruining the fitness industry because a lot of them are just like posting random work workouts that they don't even do, abusing peds and lying about it and manipulating their following, and then just creating businesses off the back of it. And it's terrible. I don't think this guy was that. I think he was a good dude, and I think he's going to be dear missed. But respect for him and the way that he operated as a dude.
(00:54:31):
I don't think I want to talk about photo editing because we already did it earlier on. But I guess I will say with editing photos and the people that goo is capturing, it doesn't do a lot. Even if you don't find out the comparison that people are making with themselves to other people online is just absurd. That's why I never edit my photos. You won't see any beams being altered. You won't see any straight lines crooked. I don't edit them. My physique is my physique. If I want to look better, then I'm going to work hard and look better. I'm not going to edit it to make myself look better just in order to sell more programmes or look more aspirational. But we do compare ourselves to other people online. And if you further polarise your physique and alienate yourself, you look like this creature and you lie about it, it really does detrimental thing to other people's mental health that are consuming your content.
(00:55:31):
So I guess I'm talking to the wrong people because most people that follow me aren't fitness influencers, but if you are doing that stuff, cut it out, mate. Cut it out. You're not doing anything for the fitness industry or yourself because you're going to be that guy that just lied to their whole audience and fitness may not last forever. There's going to be one day where you don't look that good with your booty out or you are a shirt off. So you have to start thinking, okay, are you going to be a credible person and that takes you a lot further than manipulating a few hundred thousand people or millions of people. Let's end the podcast with three Reine facts. I just sent this out in my motivational mailing list, my motivational email list that I send out three times per week. On Monday, we have motivational Monday on Wednesday, we have Wednesday Wisdom On Friday, we have facts Friday and today's Friday, and on facts Friday, this is what I sent three facts about creatine that you must know. So let me take you through them. You are 8% stronger with your resistance training when taking creatine, and we are talking about taking creatine monohydrate. A review compared a group of studies that tested individuals one, three and 10 rep max and found that people taking creatine had an increase in 20% in muscle strength, where the placebo group only increased theirs by 12%, leaving an 8% discrepancy or advantage to the creatine group and muscle strength. I'm just going to grab some water.
(00:57:15):
So that wasn't just one particular study that was a research review that had peer research review, had a group of studies that they put together and they kind of summarise the data and that was it. 8% is a lot, 8% is a lot. It does also show that 12% with placebo, it's pretty good. Potentially people are operating under their potential if they can increase their performance by 12% just by taking a placebo. I've read the book the Expectation Effect, which is awesome around that. If you do like the idea of placebo and the expectation effect, what you can expect of yourself, I would encourage reading that book. It's really good. Point number two, 20 to 30% of people that I guess take creatine on 20 to 30% are non-responders to creatine, and you have to find out for yourself if it works for you by taking it consistently for at least four weeks because it is a supplement that needs to saturate into your body. You don't take it before a workout and go, oh man, that creatine really worked. If that happened, you're operating straight out of placebo. Reine is not an acute supplement that works like that. It needs time to enter into your system, so take it for at least four weeks and observe if your weights are looking more impressive than they were previously. Trial and error is your friend here,
(00:58:50):
So you can take it three to five grammes for four weeks, and that's going to sufficiently saturate into your muscle cells that you need it to do, or you can load creatine, loading, creatine is ultimately kind of like doubling your dose. So instead of three to five grammes, you can take somewhere between 10 to 20 grammes for two weeks and then it's going to saturate into your system, and then you can just continue the regular dose of three to five grammes of creatine per day. The only obstacle that you have to hop over if you do take creatine through the loading phase is that it may cause gastrointestinal discomfort, which means it might cause a bit of irritation for your gut. You might get diarrhoea, you might be bloated. So I like to just bypass that by just going three to five grammes per day.
(00:59:38):
I'd rather that than sitting on the toilet all day, but it's up to you. Point number three, creatine has no long-term adverse effects and is safe to take year round. There is no compelling scientific evidence that the short or long-term use of creatine monohydrate up to 30 grammes per day for five years. That's huge. Has any detrimental effects on otherwise healthy individuals or among clinical populations who may benefit from creatine supplementation? A lot of people, this is probably the most asked question around creatine that I get is, how long do I take creatine for or should I cycle on and off? Creatine. And creatine is not performance enhancing drugs. It's not steroids. You don't have to cycle on and off. It's a supplement that you need to saturate into the muscle cells. So how would you continue to be saturated? You would continue to take it.
(01:00:28):
You do not need to cycle off it. You can continue to take it safely throughout the year, which I do. I take it every day. I put it in my morning smoothie. A little tip I will just tag on the end of this is try to pair your creatine supplementation with something that you do every day so that you don't forget it. A simple one is brushing your teeth, right? We brush our teeth every day in the morning or at night, or maybe both. So just like when you brush your teeth, have you taken your creatine? No, take it and then just make that pair. It's called habit pairing. It's a concept of atomic habits, but that can really help you commit to it because you do need to saturate the muscles or else it's just kind of like a waste of time. If you take creatine every second or third day, you are just wasting your money, you're wasting your time, and you're not going to reap the benefits potentially.
(01:01:22):
You're not going to be 8% stronger. So take it. I do want to end this podcast with something that I read today. So my friend Jamal got me a book called The Daily Dad. If you're on YouTube, you can see it here. It's by Ryan Holiday. I think it's a spinoff of the Daily Stoic, which is another great book that I haven't read but have heard great things on it. So the Daily Dad, if you don't know, I am a new dad of six months and it's like 366 meditations on parenting love and raising great kids, and I read something the other day, July 18th was the day that it was for, and I want to read it out to you, and this could be for any parents or just for people in general. I don't think it specifically applies to parenting, but it's really good.
(01:02:11):
When it hit me, I was like, yep, not doing that. Okay, so this is called Don't Give This. The biggest impediment to happiness in life is something that many of us picked up very early in our lives. Shame. Shame is guilt. Evil twin, where guilt is feeling bad about things you've done. Shame is feeling bad about who you are for things about yourself that you don't even control. Having normal biological urges, being uncoordinated, having unique artistic tastes, struggling with social cues, having a limited palette or an extremely adventurous one, there is almost no limit to the things about ourselves that we are capable of feeling shame over. What's so tragic about shame though is that it does not come naturally. Watch an innocent child play intently with their food or pretend completely to be a princess or a dragon, and there isn't a whisper of shame to be heard because they have not been made to feel ashamed about these things.
(01:03:09):
Yet, shame is inherited. It is passed along often by parents on the back of cutting remarks, unnecessary judgments and thoughtless choices. It's up to you to not let them inherit shame. It's up to you to let them be their own people, to let them be comfortable in their own skin, pretending to be dragons flailing to music. You don't like trying things, you'd never try yourself. It doesn't matter as long as it matters to them. Embrace your children so they might embrace the things that make them unique and wholly themselves. There is no shame in that.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
This podcast needs to be recorded because the number of people that know everything that they need to do yet just can't seem to achieve the physique that they want, whether that's the amount of muscle that they need or want, whether that's the amount of fat that they want to lose or the level of health that they want to achieve. A lot of people just can't get there and they can't shake it. They know that they need a calorie deficit for fat loss and they do that, but they don't last long. They know what exercises or they pay a coach to get a programme, but they still don't build significant amounts of muscle that they should be able to build in the timelines that they're training for, and they're just like a hamster running on a wheel. There's a lot of people that do that. I've been a personal trainer for man eight years now, and when I was on the gym floor for five years, I saw the same people doing the same things, getting the same results, and those results were nothing.
(01:00):
They would just float and that's fine if you just want to maintain, but I'm sure if you ask them, they wouldn't want to go to the gym just to stay the same. It's better than doing nothing. It's better than sitting on the couch and just chilling and moving backwards, but when you're in the gym, you want the return on investment. You want the ROI to be as positive as possible, and it's not just the physical traits that you need and these six non fitness related traits that you need to achieve the successful body that you want to achieve are going to help you get there. The last one that I'm going to read today is the most important by far, but first I'm going to name five.
(01:46):
The first thing that we need is consistency. Regardless of how you feel, you need to show up, you need to get the job done, you need to wake up, put your shoes on and go to the gym, or you need to wake up, put your shoes on, open the garage door and train in the garage. You need to be consistent. There's the saying, you can be consistent without being successful, but you can't be successful without being consistent. We need to keep showing up. That's how we win. That's how big businesses are built. That's how power lifters strength levels are built. It's not because they do one session a week, it's because they do three, four sessions per week and they slowly apply progressive overload. They don't jump from a 200 kg deadlift to a 300 kg deadlift in one session. It's those increments in between that we really need to pay attention to.
(02:47):
Consistency is so underrated. Unfortunately, it's not sexy if you talk about it on an Instagram reel. That's not going to go viral if you do a podcast on it. People don't really want to it. They want to talk about ozempic, they want to talk about fat loss injections that they can get to accelerate the process. They want to talk about what performance enhancing drugs they can take without compromising their health too much. They want to talk about what peptides they could take, and there's nothing wrong with any of those things depending on who you are and your situation. But when you talk about the road less travelled, the difficult path, it switches off a certain amount of people and that's most of the population to be very honest. When you look at the people that train in the world, it's a very low percentage. When you look at people that are health seeking and lifting weights and getting sunlight on their eyes, getting 10,000 steps a day.
(03:45):
This is a small subset of the general population of the world, but if you are interested in that, which you are, if you're listening to my podcast within that desire, there are things that we have to be consistent with and training is one, nutrition is one, and our lifestyle is one. But overall, the principle of consistency stands true. We have to be consistent, and I'm not saying that if you get a bad sleep, if your kid's sick, you leave them at school sick and just keep training because you need to be consistent and continually show up in the gym. I'm not saying that, but you need to be consistent. If you are meant to train Monday to Friday and take Saturday to Sunday off, but your kid gets sick and you can't go to work on Thursday or train, you have to look after 'em Thursday, Friday, maybe those are your rest days, and then you find a way to train on Saturday, Sunday.
(04:41):
There are ways around just like an injury in the gym, instead of stopping completely train around it, it might just look differently. Maybe you go to the gym and you get an urgent work call. You're halfway through your workout, you attend to your work, and then you add that half workout later on in the programme. It doesn't even have to be the next day or the next week. Maybe you have time to hit that in the third week of the programme, but consistency is like compounding interest. It just continues to build and build and build and build, and it's like that snowball rolling down the mountain. It continues to build momentum and as you build momentum, it builds weight and then it just continues to fall and fall and fall. And then you look back and realise, man, I'm just a snowball, exhilarating down the mountain.
(05:27):
Super, super, super quick because you've just been doing it. The most challenging thing about consistency is the beginning. It's like you have no inertia, you have no momentum, you have nothing pushing you, and you have to manually start, right? It's like when you start a sprint race and if you're in a hundred metre sprint race, the last 50 metres you are flying, you might still be exhilarating, but by 50 metres you should be at full speed, so you're kind of just maxing it out. It's just being consistent and just pushing forward. But the starting point, the start is the hardest. Your acceleration, your reaction time, how fast do you start, these things are the most important things of the sprint race, and the same thing goes with starting your body transformation. The start is the hardest, and that comes down to, and this isn't about the fitness related things, this is about the mindset or the non fitness related traits that you need, but having your training programme sorted, having the level of calories that you need sorted your macros sorted, the amounts of fibre that you need to hit, how your schedule's going to work to fit in your training sessions, how your sleep is going to be optimised throughout this time where you're trying to transform your body and in life in general, the start is the hardest, but consistency regardless of your feelings, you have to continually show up and showing up can look different.
(06:57):
Which leads me into the second point. Flexibility. I'm not talking about touching your toes because if that was a requirement for successful body transformation, I would not have any success at all. I'm not the flexible guy. I think I can touch my toes, haven't tried it in a while, but I'm not talking about that sort of flexibility. I'm talking about the flexibility of your training, your nutrition and your lifestyle. You can have the most perfect plan set up. Let's talk about a meal plan. Okay? If you have a meal plan, it's perfect. If you eat that every single day, you'll achieve success. Meal plans are like just a recipe for success with your body transformation, but the truth is who sticks to a meal plan for a month for eight weeks, for six months? Nobody does. We have weddings to go to, we have birthdays to go to.
(07:58):
We have functions. We have spontaneous dates. My daughter's turning six months today. We're going to go for a picnic and enjoy it. I'm not going to be as rigid if I was following a meal plan. I'm probably not going to take my Tupperware container to a picnic at my daughter's six month celebration. I'm probably just not going to do that, and that's a small example, but you have shit going on in your life, so just apply flexible principles. That's why I like flexible dieting over meal plans because if you step away from what you normally eat, let's say you have a corporate function for work, you can still track your calories for that meal. You can look at it and see that there's salmon on crackers and you can roughly guesstimate. You can even pull out your phone and track it on the spot if you are really dedicated, but you can get an idea of what you're consuming.
(08:54):
So you are applying this principle of flexibility with your nutrition because as perfect as we make the plan, we need to adapt. And I do that with my one-to-one clients that I train personally online, they have, they're usually long-term clients of mine and have worked with me for months and even years, and they go away on holidays. They have work trips, they have spontaneous vacations, they have going away parties at work, changing jobs, and around those times it's really hard and can cause 'em quite a lot of stress when they're like, oh man, I have to go to the social function, but I'm trying to lose weight. What should I do, Brock? That's when we sort out a plan of flexible dieting. I already give them macros and calories, but sometimes we need more specific things. Brock, there's a big cocktail party at the end of the day, what should I do?
(09:51):
So what we do is we have high protein breakfasts and lunches and try to keep the calories as little as possible so that at nighttime we have these calories saved up or back loaded that we can consume at that time, and maybe that leaves a little bit of room for a glass of champagne to celebrate and it leaves a little bit of room for that slice of cake that you want to eat with everyone while you're saying goodbye. There's ways that you can do it. I'm a big fan of calorie back loading within the day for the dinner, but then you can also do something called weekly calorie back loading where you literally reduce or increase the number of calories in a certain day to make it fit for your week. Let's say you have a kid's birthday party on Sunday and you want to get amongst the fairy bread.
(10:39):
I love fairy bread, the butter, the hundreds and thousands, amazing. I love fairy bread. So let's say you want to get amongst that. You want to sit on a little kid's table with your little paper plate and eat some fairy bread with your kid, and that's quite a lot of calories. So maybe you're thinking, look, I don't really want to starve myself or have a little amount of calories for breakfast and all that kind of stuff. I'd rather just have that day to be a higher calorie day. So what you can do is shave off a hundred calories Monday to Friday, and then you have that bank of 500 calories that you can have on Sunday for the birthday party that you can spend on fairy bread, right? You have 500 calories of fairy bread, that's a decent amount, or you could even shave 200 calories off from Monday to Friday.
(11:27):
Now you have a thousand calories to spend on fairy bread on Sunday, and that makes Monday to Friday slightly harder. But it also gives you this flexibility that you can enjoy and still hit your goals. This is the main thing. These traits and principles that I'm sharing with you are for you to still get results. You're not sacrificing anything, okay? Monday to Friday you're sacrificing 200 calories per day. Easy does it because Sunday you're going to make it up with some fairy bread. Some people might call that a cheat meal. I call that intelligent nutrition. There's a big difference psychologically as well. The same thing goes with your sleep. If you sleep four hours and you're feeling average, the numbers that you need to hit for that world workout just might seem so far away, you might just really struggle to hit the number that you need to.
(12:22):
Okay? There's a study, I'm not sure when it was published or who didn't, but shows that when we are sleep deprived, our perception of fatigue is a lot higher. So when we're actually further away from failure than we think, we find that really hard when we're sleep deprived and it makes sense, right? If you are really, really tired, everything feels harder. That's pretty much what it says. So on those days, if you apply the principle of flexibility, you can still train, but maybe you just need to auto-regulate how you feel. And some females get that when they have their menstrual cycle, if they feel a bit off on one week, I'm not going to force them to hit the personal best if they can't do it. We need to auto-regulate. We need to be flexible and okay, look, let's just go to the gym. Let's try to hit the same weights that we did last week.
(13:19):
Okay? We didn't apply progressive overload, but we didn't give up, and that's the most important thing to lean into. The first thing that I said, consistency. We can still be flexible and okay, it's not the most optimal thing, but human beings aren't robots. Well, not yet. Alright? Give AI a few years and maybe we can hit heavier weights every single workout. But for now, when your body says, mate, I've slept four hours and I'm shagged, don't force it because that is where I got injured and I ended up with an ambulance at my house with my lower back, absolutely smashed twitching and my muscles in my lower back were spasming. So don't push yourself when you're extremely tired. This is just a couple of examples, right? And the same goes with work. If you have a big day, let's say you got to work at 6:00 AM you're meant to finish at three, but you finished at six and then you went home and you had to cook dinner, and then you had to read the books for the kids to go to sleep and then you had to go to sleep, where was the time to work out?
(14:20):
It just didn't happen that day. That's fine. Be flexible. Alright? Try to reorder the days that you need to do in your workout programme and make it work. So as diligent as we are with our training programme and with our nutrition and with our sleep and with our supplements, we need to have this principle of flexibility as a parachute that we can fall back on and still coast through our body transformation without the detriment to our results. Number three is positivity. And the reason I say positivity as opposed to optimism is because I think they're very different. I think positivity is the fusion of realism and optimism. You might disagree with that, but hear me out, hear me out.
(15:14):
If you are realistic and just you are real and that's all you are, you kind of lack hope. And I think that hope can be really great for us to inspire us and to push us further. I'm a very optimistic person, but I think with our body transformation, we need a hint of realism because if we are too optimistic, then we're going to get let down and we're on the border of delirious. Like if you say I want to lose 10 kg in two days, that's too optimistic and that can be dangerous. So we need to mix a bit of realism in there. We need to get realistic with our goals, but we also need to set the standard high because often when we set the standard high, if we ask the question of ourselves, we rise to the occasion. Many times in my life when my back has been up against the wall, I've proven to myself that I'm stronger than I thought.
(16:18):
And I believe that most human beings are like that as well. When we challenge ourself, we often rise to the occasion, and I encourage, and this is outside of the gym too, that you do test yourself, sign up to the challenge, sign up to the competition, buy the course because once you do that, you will rise up to whatever you've signed up to. But if you just cruise and you don't ask the questions and you don't challenge yourself and you don't step out of your comfort zone, the worst thing you can do is look in the mirror one year from today and be the same. I think that is the worst thing that could happen.
(16:57):
We always want to progress and I think that staying positive helps us to continually progress because we ask those things of ourselves, not in a ridiculous, delirious optimistic way, but in a positive way. One of the most important books that I read in my life was The Power of Positivity by Norman Vincent Peele. And I look back at the things that I did and I'm unsure if I would do those things today. I left my home city to live in a city on a different island. So I went from the south island to the north island in a city that I had no family. I had no job lined up. I had a car with an oil leak that made me broke. Once I arrived to that city, I was sleeping on couches, I was working jobs that I didn't enjoy. I was crying most nights. I was super driven, but I was very lost. But what kept me going was this positivity was this hope that things were going to get better. And I think that if I didn't do that in my life, I would still be in the same city and I would be in a very different position that I would be in now. And that's why my bias is towards being positive.
(18:19):
If your bias is towards being negative, I don't see you stepping outside of your comfort zone as much as someone that's positive. And like I've said already two or three times, if you don't ask the question of yourself, you'll never answer it. So ask the question. And with regards to your body transformation, challenge yourself with the transformation. Okay, let's look at fat loss. Let's say you legitimately have 10 kg to lose. I think a great goal, a great goal is to try and lose that 10 kilos in one year. Okay? Now you might think that's too slow, Brock, I've seen people lose 10 kilos in 10 weeks, a kilo a week. I can do that. You probably could, and if you do, that's amazing. But if we set this in a year, you would love to lose 10 kg in a year because a lot of people try to do that quick stuff where they go, I'm going to lose 10 kilos in 10 weeks, and they do really well for three or four weeks, and then they just lose motivation.
(19:33):
They tyre out, they set the standard too high, they were too optimistic, they didn't know themselves, and then a year later they look in the mirror, they haven't lost 10 KG, maybe they've even gained a little. And that's what I try to stress to my personal training clients all the time. You need to be positive, which is a mix of realism and optimism. I don't want you to go, I want to lose 10 kg before I die. What? So you want to take 40 years? That's way too long. Like, okay, we can do it in one year. We could even do it in six months. And this obviously depends on the person, but when you're setting a goal, when you say it out loud, when you write it down, when you look at it, does your gut say, man, you can do better? Or does your gut say, let's be a bit realistic.
(20:29):
That's asking too much. Listen to that voice. And if you don't have that voice, then hire a coach because that's going to be the wisest option and a good coach as well. We need to get to the bottom of what is realistic and what is optimistic because this is where people just kind of really set themselves up for failure. They say unrealistic expectations, they try an extreme fat loss diet, it doesn't work, and then they rebound. And often when we rebound, it's worse than the position we were in before. Example of what I just said, if you want to lose TKG in 10 weeks, they try to do it three or four weeks, they give up so they lose three or four kilos, but then they gain six, so they're in a worse net position. But if you had a more realistic timeline as opposed to a very optimistic one, then you could lose 500 grammes per week.
(21:25):
You could lose 250 grammes per week. And although it doesn't look as outstanding as your Instagram friends that are just losing 10 kilos in 10 weeks, you are still moving. You are being consistent, you're being flexible when you need to, but you're being positive as well. So I'm a big believer in hope, and I think you need to have that hope. You need to have that positivity that's driving you towards that goal. The fourth point is focus. You need to remain focused. And I wrote down a word that you'll understand, but autocorrect says it's not a word and it's strong headedness. You need to be strong-headed because your friends, your family, your colleagues are going to try and peer pressure you. And this is more so for fat loss, but it can apply to other body transformations. They might want to drag you out to stay out late, but you know that you need to go to bed earlier to get in your workout.
(22:28):
They might want you to have a sip of alcohol. Come on man, just have a sip of alcohol. Just have one, one with me. Come on man. Just have one. You know how it goes. You have one, it leads to two leads to four, four leads to eight, eight leads to you go into the bathroom with your mate. Oh, you come back feeling great. Sometimes you just need to be strong and be certain and be focused. And that's my approach always. If I'm tracking calories, I'm tracking calories, that's what I'm doing. I don't drink alcohol, but if I did drink alcohol and people offered it to me, I would say no because I believe that true friends and people that are around you that really love you will respect your decision. And even at my wedding, I was offered, so there's a Macedonian song called MaviSky, Malo, Coca-Cola, which is a little bit of whiskey, a little bit of Coca-Cola, and me and my friend Jamal, were standing on chairs.
(23:32):
Oh, like dancing. And when that song gets played, they give the person or the people that are on the chairs or the people that the song is for, they give them a shot of whiskey and they usually shot it, but me and Jamal don't drink. So we're up there and the Macedonians are like, yeah, have some. And we're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't drink. And they're like, come on, it's your wedding. Come on. And I didn't have it and I just don't drink. They had it. They understood it was cool. Maybe it was offensive to their culture. Maybe they didn't really approve deep down, but that's my belief system, that's my values, it's my wedding. That's my friend. That's just how we roll. And if you don't like that, tough luck and you need to have that element within you when you're trying to transform your body, when you're trying to get more of a serious body transformation, like let's say you're a pro bodybuilder and you're dieting down for a competition, you really need that.
(24:40):
But I guess the less intense your transformation, the less focus that you need. But I would always encourage to start off strong because it's just like that snowball rolling down the mountain. The more you say no to things, the easier it is as you progress and build confidence within saying no to people, because a lot of people try and peer pressure. You also need to stay focused through the hate, and this can even come from family members. If you want to lose body fat, they might say, but you don't need to lose any weight. Why are you so obsessed? It's like you have an eating disorder, you're just going crazy. Some family members just don't get it. Some family members think they have the best for you, but sadly they don't. And it's upon you to tell them about that. It's not their intention sometimes to be hateful or to say, what are you doing?
(25:41):
You're crazy. You need to explain to them. It can come from online. If you are visually posting your fitness diary online, sharing on your stories, posting grid posts of your body transformation, there's a lot of people that will support you, but there's also some people that will try and tear you down and say, looked better before or still fat. There's some losers out there, man. You have to have thick skin with that. You have to have thick skin with that. I was talking about it on my Instagram live this morning. I've got a lot of hate recently for talking about performance and hunting drugs that I've never taken them. And these like this guy and I went into his profile like, who does this? He's got three kids, he's a Christian and he's spending his spare time throwing vomiting, hate all over me like you, PED, abuser, I can't believe you're lying to your fitness community.
(26:40):
There's people like you that just need to blah, blah, blah. He's just losing it. I'm like, mate. So I said, look, what blood test do you want me to take? What markers are you looking for? He didn't even know. And he goes, oh, I don't need to know that I don't give a blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, man, there's just people out there that are just, I don't know what motivates 'em to do it. I think they're jealous. I think they're lost. I think they're unhappy with where they're at in their life and they're projecting it onto you. So just be careful about that when you are posting post and don't read the comments, that's the best way. Or just don't even post that's, that's an even better way. Alright? Okay. Focus also encourages you not to rely on motivation. If you're relying on motivation, then look, it's not the best way to do it because some days you wake up and you're not motivated.
(27:38):
You cannot be IFD getting out of bed. You hit snooze, you don't want to go to work, you just want to be alone and you don't want to train. You want to eat KFC. Sometimes you just wake up like that. But if you're focused, if you are focused, you'll turn that down, get up and go. This is talked about a lot, right? And it's a bit of an old conversation of rely on determination, not motivation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's true. You got to stay focused, right? Regardless of how you feel. Just like I open the podcast, but regardless of your feelings, show up, be consistent. Focus helps you do that. You need to be focused. What's the job that you need to do? Because before you would've started your body transformation, you've set out a plan. You want to lose X amount of weight in X amount of time, you want to build X amount of muscle in X amount of time, you want to have this body fat percentage by this date.
(28:37):
You need to line that up. And once you have that, you need the focus. Focus is the fuel that just keeps you going. You've got to be focused. When you meet someone that's focused, that's inspiring, man. Hey man, do you want to come out for dinner? I can't man. I have to go for a run. I've got a triathlon in six weeks and that's when I'm doing my run. You appreciate that. So stay focused regardless if you're motivated or not. You just got to shut up and do it. It's the same with work, it's the same with fitness. It's the same with business. It's the same with your relationships. If your relationships are falling apart, you need to put in the work. If your business is falling apart, you need to put in the work. So focus, stay focused. You can't stay motivated, alright? It's easy to be motivated when things are going good.
(29:22):
Oh man, I got 10 hours of sleep last night. I'm feeling fresh. Let's go to the gym. When you're not feeling like that, you rely on focus. You rely on determination, not motivation. Moving on. Number five, open-mindedness. Once again, auto correctors told me that that's not a word, but you need to be open-minded and this will save you because there's a lot of people that I've approached on the gym floor and have tried to open their eyes and open their mind to a different strategy because they've looked the same for two or three years, and I picked up a few clients because they had the trait of open-mindedness. They were like, this guy's making sense. I haven't changed my body in two or three years. I need a programme. I need to sort out my nutrition. I need to make sure my technique's good. If you're not open-minded, you're never going to ask those questions If you are progressing and you'll just be narrow focused tunnel vision and there's a time for that.
(30:25):
But if you're not getting the results that you want, it's not a time to double down and be laser focused. It's a time to question and be curious and be open-minded and say, why is this not working? And that's why you need to have this train. You need to ask yourself, is it working? Because if it's not, your training programme has to change. Maybe it's not working because you're not even training your legs. All you're doing is upper body. Maybe your body transformation isn't working because you're sleeping four hours every day. Maybe it's not working because you haven't been applying progressive overload and you've been lifting the same weights for two years. Maybe it's not working because you have started going for runs and you've actually started losing muscle. There's so many factors that happen, but you need to keep your mind open to am I actually making progress?
(31:21):
If you're not, you can try and troubleshoot. Look at your training programme, look at your nutrition, look at your lifestyle. Maybe you need to try reine to see if it helps. Maybe you should try a pre-workout before you're trained to help lift your energy levels. You can troubleshoot based on the knowledge that you have, but if you don't, this is where you really need to hire a coach, right? I've stepped in with people that haven't made progress in years and then they make progress in eight weeks. It can be that short because once you get to the bottom of what's happening, things change. A lot of people that I've trained have just not been having a high protein diet and they fall into the category of let's say, looking skinny fat. So now they have a high protein diet. Now their training programme is off the hook and progressive overload is just intertwined in that programme.
(32:11):
That's when they start getting results. Yes. So keep your mind open. If you're not getting results, question it, troubleshoot it or hire someone to help you get through it. The last point that I want to talk about out is patience. We need patience. I have this saying, I may have stolen it from someone, but I'm going to say it too many people underestimate what can do in eight weeks, but overestimate what they can do in eight days. And you can insert whatever number of days or weeks or years in that timeframe of the quote. But you understand what I'm trying to say. Let's generalise it. Too many people underestimate what they can do in the long, long-term, but overestimate what they can do in the short term. It's just so true and it trips people up. That's why fad diets, crash diets, extreme diets, extremely restrictive diets. That's why they don't work because people are overestimating, oh man, I'm just going to have 1200 calories for eight weeks every single day. Oh yeah, how did that work out? I lasted a week. Yeah, thought so. You need to be patient. That is what leads to success.
(33:40):
If you want to grow a social media following patience, just post every day, show up, answer people's questions, provide value, show up, show up, be patient. You be consistent. But then the underlying thing underneath that consistency, you need to be patient. And I'm not saying you need to just not care, obviously you need to be getting results, but you need to be patient because if you're not patient, then you're going to get fed up. If you are short-term focused, you're just going to like, oh, it's not working. Like, okay, when you transition from losing body fat to building muscle, this is when a lot of people give up because fat loss is easy. It's easy to see, it's easy to do, and it's easy to be motivated when you're doing it because you can see results. But when you build muscle, you need a different type of patience because the amount of muscle that people are realistically going to build in about a year
(34:47):
Is pretty disgraceful. If you are a natural athlete, if you want to build muscle, you have to be super patient. You might build 250 grammes, 500 grammes of muscle in a year. Do you know how crazy that sounds? No one wants to sign up for that, but that's what you have to do. You have to be patient. You need to think long-term. As a beginner, it's different. You're going to get results quick. You can build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Everything's working for you. Bang, bang, bang. You're feeling great. Whoa, I just added a 20 kg plate onto my deadlift from last week. And you're feeling incredible. But as you get more advanced, as you double down on your body transformation, things get harder. It's harder to live heavier, it's harder to stick to those lower calories that you need to lose body fat.
(35:37):
It's harder to be super consistent, man, I've got a job. I've got kids, I've got a wife. All these things are going on. But if you have this patience and you know that good things take time, then you're going to keep sane throughout this process too. Because a lot of people expect to build muscle in super, super, super short timeframes, and then they end up discouraged and then they end up giving up. And then they're the people that say, fitness isn't for me. Nah, I don't really do that. I tried it, but it doesn't really work. No, it does. You just did it wrong and you had the wrong mindset. So I hope that these six non fitness related topics, traits, principles, inspire you to achieve your body transformation because the amount of education that you have access to is just crazy online. You can listen to a podcast, you can watch a reel, you can watch a YouTube video, and you can understand everything that you need to transform your body, but none of it's going to matter if you can't master these six things.
(36:46):
And in Team Brock Ashby, my online coaching business, there's workout plans with detailed videos so that the form is nailed. But there's also this educational video section where all of my clients can grow their knowledge. So if you don't want to try and filter through the podcasts and filter through the YouTube videos and filter through everything, you ultimately just need to buy a team Brock HPI programme. And then you get access to any educational video that you want. Talking about calorie back loading, weekly calorie back loading, which I talked about earlier, talking about sleep, talking about supplements, talking about how to optimise a calorie deficit, how to optimise a calorie surplus if you want to build muscle, how to optimise your nutrition for maintenance. There's myth busting videos on there. There's a tonne of videos, how to stick to a low carb diet. There's all these things that are in there. And then I also have videos of why not to rely on motivation.
(37:46):
And I have other videos that are more based on lifestyle, like the amount of steps and the mindsets that you need to transform your body, all these kinds of things. They're kind of like shorter forms of podcasts like these. So if you do sign up to Team Bhpi and you are looking to transform your body, jump on team bhpi.com, buy a programme, and you get access to that and you can just watch it whenever you want. I recommend watching a video a day because that helps you continually stay in it, it to win it, and you can be successful that way. But yeah, I hope this really helps. This is going to be the end of the podcast. Please like this podcast. If you can please share it with a friend, that really helps. If you're watching it on YouTube, please subscribe. If you are listening to it on Spotify and Apple and stuff, please leave a review. It really helps me. I'm really trying to grow this, obviously invest it into a podcast studio right behind me. And the more that I can grow it, the more I can have influential guests talk about awesome things and have some conversations that'll really bring value to you. And that's what I want to do. So I'll see you in the next podcast.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Nancy Sokarno, also known as Psych With Socks, is a registered psychologist based here in Sydney, Australia. She enjoys working with her clients on a holistic approach to therapy, encouraging them to integrate various aspects of their lives to promote overall wellbeing. She's an avid gym goer herself and relies on physical movement as one of her top self-care rituals. In this episode, we dive deep into how to navigate through this new world that we live in with social media, with a highly sedentary lifestyle, and also things that I would say increased throughout the pandemic anxiety and depression. Before we jump into the podcast, I do want to ask this for one favour. If you could subscribe to the podcast in whatever platform that you're watching it on or listening to this episode on, it really helps the channel grow, and as it grows, it helps me to get more pulling power to bring on more interesting guests. Enjoy the podcast.
Brock Ashby (00:55):
So Nancy, I wanted to have you on to talk about pretty much all of the changes in lifestyle that we've had. We've had, obviously the pandemic was a big one, and we can touch on that, but I just think that, and we talked about this before on the podcast, our lives, actually, you said it, our lives are different. It's almost like long, that affects your health, but its like,
Nancy Sokarno (01:20):
Yeah, psychological long.
Brock Ashby (01:21):
Yeah. Yeah. That's what we could call this podcast maybe. But yeah, life is different. We talked about as a personal trainer, just before it went, just before it hit three months, I left the gym and went online, but I was seeing how it was affecting people when they were training people, they had to change pricing, scramble around gyms. So even that was just one clear example of how their lives changed immediately. But even on the back of that, I had friends even a year after thinking, I'm still getting back into what I had before, and now some of my clients don't want to train in the gym because they're fearful of it, or they're fearful of being surrounded by people in the middle of a city and now they just work from home. Or now they want me to go to their home, so now I have to leave the gym and then I lose this and that. It's, that's just one example of how it's different. But ultimately, today I want to unpack several, I guess, points,
Nancy Sokarno (02:17):
Adaptations that we've had to make in our lives. I think that, yeah, you're right, people had to make changes really quickly and we weren't prepared for that. And like you said, some of your mates were in the gym full time and had to find a park or had to scramble and go on Zoom and teach people how to use online platforms and all of those things. And I think that what I guess I really saw in it highlighted that we are adaptable, although it was extremely difficult. And yes, we were not at all prepared for what that looked like and what the implications were going to be. I think that we did a pretty decent job at it. But what's happening now, like we said, psychological long, is that we have had to adapt and then adapt again and adapt some more. And adaptation is such a human need. If we go into the whole evolution route, if we didn't adapt, you died. So it is something that we are pretty good at, but we had to really lean into that. And yeah, let's definitely talk about so many different ways that we had to adapt and change
Brock Ashby (03:25):
On the adaptation thing. I think there, in my perspective, which isn't that large of my group circle and stuff, but I definitely saw two types of people emerge, people that were taking on the challenge, and I'm going to do whatever I can to stay afloat, provide for my family, stay fit, have a healthy, make it work relationship, make it work, just float. And then there were people like, man, this is too hard. Who sunk? I'm going to start drinking more. I'm going to watch more tv. I'm going to isolate myself even more. And yeah, I found that that just ties into the whole evolutionary thing, the whole, I guess,
Nancy Sokarno (04:05):
Survival of the fittest.
Brock Ashby (04:06):
Yeah, survival of the fittest in all areas of life. One thing I wanted to touch on, I guess the first thing was, or is social media and how that impacted it. So personally for me, I knew that when people were at home more maybe not working, and the government was handing out money sometimes, so people weren't actually working as much. I knew that screen time was going to go up. So I went from posting once a day to twice a day. So for
Nancy Sokarno (04:35):
Me, yeah, you capitalise on that.
Brock Ashby (04:37):
I was that person emerging, like, okay, I'm going to double down. I'm going to go live. I was going live posting in the morning, posting at night, answering story questions, and I just went online as well. Oh yeah. Well, three months earlier, so I was really trying to build, but yeah, screen time was up, engagement was up, and people were like, I
Nancy Sokarno (04:55):
That our world, right? Because we were so isolated from human interaction, we went online and we connected online and like you said, yeah, screen time doubled, quadrupled even from watching every Netflix show that you could to checking in with one another via Instagram or watching TikTok relentlessly or doing FaceTime calls or whatever it was. And then of course, if we were working from home, we were predominantly on our computers. And so of course you're doing meetings and then also emails, but then whilst you're doing that, you're on your phone as well, and you've got a TV in the background. And it was just like, there was so much information being taken on, and this can probably be another podcast episode, but everyone then came out of that space. And I don't mean everyone, but a large majority of people were like, I have a DHD, and that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, that's
Brock Ashby (05:54):
Definitely been popping up more.
Nancy Sokarno (05:55):
Yeah, I've seen a billion A DHD TikTok videos, and I can't even tell you how many clients come into therapy saying, Hey, can we talk about A DHD? I think I have a DHD when I've been seeing them for three or four years, for example. And I'm like, let's talk about the changes that have happened over the last two years or 18 months. How much change has happened in your day-to-day life where we were dopamine fiends during Covid because there was not much happening. And so I, that's a whole other thing, but I think that touching on screen time and the social media era during the pandemic, even dating went online too. It's always been online, but that blew up as well because I can't go anywhere.
Brock Ashby (06:50):
I remember people trying to find loopholes to tin that because it was, because you know how there was a point in time where you could,
Nancy Sokarno (06:57):
That bubble,
Brock Ashby (06:58):
You could see one person. Yeah, the
Nancy Sokarno (07:00):
Singles bubble.
Brock Ashby (07:02):
So you could, I don't know, maybe go and stay the night with someone, but you couldn't do it again with someone else that week or yeah, you
Nancy Sokarno (07:06):
Had had to choose one single bubble buddy, basically.
Brock Ashby (07:11):
Okay, choose the right one. Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (07:14):
But yeah, I think you did the right thing by, I guess, capitalising on the fact that everyone just spent 24 hours on their phones. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (07:24):
So do you think that was, people are actually, say developing disorders like a DHD, or do you think it's just people's time, I guess? Sorry, attention span, shrinking, because I definitely feel different. I think I've kind of always been similar, and my wife said it to me many times, I need to have more space for my brain because if I'm doing a monotonous task, I'd rather do that, listen to an audio book or listen to a podcast habit
Nancy Sokarno (07:50):
Stacking.
Brock Ashby (07:51):
Yeah. So I'm like, I'm going to learn something and do this. But then also I think I don't have enough time to get to the bottom of my ideas because I'm just getting
Nancy Sokarno (08:00):
With so much information.
Brock Ashby (08:01):
So then you become just a parrot as opposed to this original person that develops ideas. But that's one thing that I've kind of always had, but I've found it more so I'm driving, I have to listen to this if I'm,
Nancy Sokarno (08:12):
You've got to have your brain stimulated all the time.
Brock Ashby (08:14):
And if I'm just doing a task, and I think humans are uni task people anyway, we can only do one thing at a time. But if I'm just, yeah, I guess that's a different debate, but we're only, if we're doing something that should be enough, you should be engaged. But I'm like, I need music, or I need a podcast put on Joe Rogan in the background while I'm doing emails or something. And I'm like, man, even because all the A DH ADHD session coming up, I'm like, do I need to get a test? But I think I just
Nancy Sokarno (08:44):
Look, there are so many variables to getting a diagnosis, and again, I won't go into that in depth, but I definitely think that our attention spans have been hit when you consume such large amounts of content or stimuli, short
Brock Ashby (09:03):
Form content too,
Nancy Sokarno (09:04):
At a really rapid rate. And everyone that is on Instagram or TikTok knows that when you refresh your feed, there's this ever so slight pause before your feed, I guess regenerates. And that is the same concept as poker machines. And so that's a whole other conversation that we can have
Brock Ashby (09:25):
Suspense before.
Nancy Sokarno (09:27):
Correct. Here we go. And so I guess the back end, the people who curated these social media platforms really took from the psychology around gambling, which social media is an addiction also, which is a whole other conversation. But so we were just getting dopamine hits, dopamine hits, and yeah, like I said, we became dopamine fiends, boring tasks,
(09:53)
Super boring. Now they're like, I'll get on an email and start writing and halfway through I'm like, should I go? I think like a banana, and I'll get up to go into the kitchen and get a banana and come back and I'm halfway through an email and I'm like, okay, cool. I've finished this email, and then I'm like, I should check my phone. I have seen as well, because I went online during Covid and I had to shift into telehealth. I was on my computer every single day, whereas prior to that, I actually never really did online consultations. I was five days a week in clinic, have phone calls here and there, but when I transitioned to telehealth, I found that literally I was sitting in front of a computer every single day. My screen time was huge. And then obviously I'm on TikTok and I'm on Instagram and I'm doing all those other things as well. So yeah, I found that my attention span was hit to.
Brock Ashby (11:01):
So what do you think are best practises that people can use to try and navigate that?
Nancy Sokarno (11:05):
Yeah, let's really put in some strategies, I guess to chunk our time. I know that lots of people use the Pomodoro method where you, let's say, use 20 minutes and put a timer on and do 20 minutes of work, and then when the timer goes off, stand up and give yourself five minutes to do something that you enjoy or 10 minutes, go and walk outside, sit in the sun, go on your phone, read a book, whatever it is. And then when that alarm goes off, go back to the task that you were doing and then kind of repeat that cycle. And so you have smaller increments of time where you are super concentrated and then know that you get a break and then come back. So it's rejigging, I guess, your attention and being like, I don't have to be so fixated on this thing for two hours.
(11:52)
If I have 50 emails to do, that's a really overwhelming task. And you'll find that a lot of people are procrastinating those things because it is so boring and I'm not getting any stimulation from it. So I'm like, cool, something that should take me half an hour is taking me three hours. That's really helpful. Habit stacking, like you were saying, doing emails, but also listening to a podcast in the background is not a bad idea. So habit stacking is doing something you need to do with something you want to do, and so it gives you that joy of being like, I get to listen to Joe Rogan's new podcast episode, but I also need to fill out this intake form for one of my clients. And so yeah, I think that I did a lot of habit stacking during covid as well. I need to go for a walk and I want to go for a walk as well. I want to be outside and I want to get sunlight exposure, but I also need to be doing my emails. So I would pair those tasks as
Brock Ashby (12:51):
Well. Yeah, I used to do that too. Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go for a walk, but then, I don't know, I was always in this bit of a war with it. I was like, I'm going for a walk to be out of nature by the beach. I
Nancy Sokarno (13:02):
Shouldn't be on my phone and
Brock Ashby (13:03):
It is me. I'm editing a video that I'm going to post later on. I'm like, did you even take in the nature or are you just like, but I'm like,
Nancy Sokarno (13:11):
Or making the best out of a bad situation, I guess
Brock Ashby (13:13):
Feel like it's better than sitting on my couch doing
Nancy Sokarno (13:16):
It. Yeah, inside. I think again, that's adaptation. If the circumstances were different and I was able to go and come as I please, then going for a walk and being consciously aware of your surroundings is really beneficial and not being on your phone, that's great. The circumstances were that the only time that you got outside was when you were going for a walk, but you also had all of this work to do, and you were like, how can I pair the two to my benefit? So again, adaptation. It's not one size fits all. And I think that especially on social media, because there's so much content and we're about to, I guess, discuss anxiety and depression and the prevalence of that on social media is that if one person presents this way, it doesn't mean that you have to present the same way, but you may be experiencing similar things. And so yeah, people turn to social media and go, if I have anxiety, what should that look like? And then I'm taking on all of this information, I'm like, oh, I don't know how much that fits. Or, oh my God, yes, this person who has a DHD on TikTok, I am exactly that person. I too have a DHD. It's not that clear Cut.
Brock Ashby (14:24):
So what other things do you think people can use to navigate it? I guess one specific one I would have is around comments and people or maybe messaging or sending maybe nasty messages or things like that. I get that a lot, but obviously I guess we're different in terms of we actually have platforms where we're exposing ourselves to or exposing others to our ideas and opening ourselves up as potential targets if people disagree. But I do know that other get, if you just use Instagram casually, you can still get forms of hate or messages that you don't want to have. How do you think people can navigate through that?
Nancy Sokarno (15:02):
I think as well, during Covid and after, there was a lot of culling of things that just were not serving you, like I said, and we said we spent so much time on our phone, so we were being impacted by the things that we were seeing and the people that we were following and the ideas that people were presenting to us online. And so a really helpful task for anyone that's on social media is start filtering the things that you are looking at, because the information that you take on, you think that it's 10 seconds or three minutes at this point on TikTok that it's just a quick snippet of this information, but it's really absorbed and your ideas then start to formulate around that information. And then your behaviour is impacted and so on and so forth. Your mood is changed, and so it's not just we're taking on information.
(15:53)
So be really selective with the things that you take on, whether it's people that you follow, people that you follow, content that you consume, conversations that you have, videos that you watch. You need to be, I think, super selective because you are a sponge essentially. And whether it's online or in conversation with people in real life, the friends that you have, the places that you work, everything is impacting us. And so be conscious, be present, that I have to be really taking on things that are of benefit to me and not hindering me or making me feel worse about myself or making me compare myself. I know that as well. Especially now everyone's in Europe, it seems. Yeah, seriously.
Brock Ashby (16:39):
Yeah. I'm just in Italy or the whole out of office reply email,
Nancy Sokarno (16:43):
Which I'm about to turn online. Nice. Yeah, everyone's what feels like everyone is in Europe, and I know that not everyone is, and people are at work on their computers and commuting and et cetera. So I think that if that feels overwhelming to you, if you feel like you're comparing yourself, mute it. It's okay. It's okay for you to not be okay viewing content. I don't think that you should feel bad about that.
Brock Ashby (17:10):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Yeah. I'm a savage un follower
Nancy Sokarno (17:15):
Gone, and
Brock Ashby (17:16):
People are like, you can just mute. But I'm like, but
Nancy Sokarno (17:18):
I dunno. I just don't want them there at all,
Brock Ashby (17:20):
But I don't get anything from them. So even if I am aware of this person, I remember I was a personal trainer in the gym fitness first Market Street. I was there and there was some personal trainers there, and I was following, just following everyone because we were like that. And then I was just like, man, maybe they weren't even posting, or maybe it was just stuff that I just
Nancy Sokarno (17:42):
Didn't align with,
Brock Ashby (17:43):
Or maybe I just didn't like it. And I remember I unfollowed someone and then they were hit me up. They're like, oh, you unfollow me. And I was like, man, first of all, I was like, are you looking through who's following you that closely? But I don't know, maybe it's rude and I get that, but I'm just like, I don't want to see booty content. I'm not trying to grow my booty. I don't struggle with the struggles that your avatar that you're trying to market to has. I don't think that's rude. I couldn't care about the size of my booty, so I was just like, I still you as a, I was like, we're still talking. We're still hanging out. It's just that I don't follow you on this app. Is that
Nancy Sokarno (18:21):
Really
Brock Ashby (18:21):
That
Nancy Sokarno (18:21):
Bad? I think that people have really tethered themselves to their online presence, so they're
Brock Ashby (18:27):
Like following can.
Nancy Sokarno (18:27):
Yeah. I mean, I am who I am on social media, so if you unfollow me, you don't like me as a human, and I think that that's not right.
Brock Ashby (18:37):
I agree.
Nancy Sokarno (18:38):
Yeah, it's not rude for you to unfollow someone. And I think the concept, and I've been speaking about this a lot, whether it's online or with my clients, about the concept of should, and that's riddled in obligation and expectation. We are parametered by you should follow every single person that why should I think that when we don't do the things that we should, we feel guilt and we feel bad for doing that. And again, this is such an important concept as well, because we are just kind of blindly following what we should be doing when we're not actually checking in with what do I want to be doing? What do I choose to do? And that's different for every single person. We all should move our bodies, but how should we, that's up to you. What capacity do you have? What time do you have? What abilities do you have? It's the intention of movement, but how is up to you? The same way that with your mental health, we all should be taking care of our mental health, how you should be doing that. Also up to you.
Brock Ashby (19:55):
Yeah, very different. Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (19:57):
Yeah. That's something really, really strongly about, and maybe another podcaster.
Brock Ashby (20:05):
So on movement, what's your advice on, I guess, overcoming a sedentary lifestyle that is kind of throwing at us, Hey, sit at your office, drive or commute, sit on a train or drive in your car, 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back. How do you encourage your clients, or I guess just your pieces of advice for sedentary people? Obviously I have my own, as a personal trainer, I have my own kind of checklist that I go through, but how do you approach it?
Nancy Sokarno (20:37):
I also think that a lot of us now work remotely because of the pandemic. And some of those business structures just felt like that worked better for them. They didn't have to have actual office and everyone just worked online. So the step count is real low now, more than ever before. Massively. Yeah. And like you said, people are commuting, whether that's on a train or driving or they're actually not walking to work anymore, or they are getting their car now instead of walking like they were before. So I really think that when we live an sedentary lifestyle, we need to start with, like you were saying, the low hanging fruit. How convenient and easy is this task for me? And how can I then implement that into my life at the moment? So I find that people find it extremely difficult to, I need to go to the gym for one hour.
(21:28)
And it's like, well, the gym is 10 minutes away, and also the childcare starts at seven 30 and I need to be in the office at nine o'clock and all of these other things. And it's like, I don't have time for that. And I'm like, okay, well don't go to the gym for one hour. What else can you do? And so start with something that is convenient, it's easy, it's accessible, and it's super limited in that it doesn't feel like effort, whether that's literally walking around in your backyard. And this is something that I said to my clients during Covid, a lot of my clients were experiencing anxiety about being outside, whether that's going to the grocery stores or whatever it was. And I was like, you can literally do an entire workout in your lounge room without seeing anybody. You can do it in your pyjamas.
(22:17)
You can put music on your phone and you can just do air squats. You can lunge in the backyard, you can skip, you can hop, you can jump, you can roll around. It doesn't matter what it is, it's just that you are moving your body. And so yeah, I do. I encourage my clients to start extremely small and then add to that and scaffold, is this something that's sustainable for me? Can I do a 10 minute walk down the road with my dog and then come back and get ready for work, et cetera? Can I add 10 extra minutes because I woke up 10 minutes earlier? Is my husband looking after the kids in the afternoon and I can go for a half an hour walk with a girlfriend who I haven't seen in a long time. If you then have the capacity to add to that, great.
(23:02)
There are amazing online platforms that you can join, and you don't actually have to go anywhere, but if you wanted to go to a gym and not have to interact with anyone and have your online coach, great. If you wanted to join a sporting team and you don't want to ever step foot in a gym, awesome. You want it to rock climb. There are so many things that you can do, but just start with what do I have the capacity for? How much time do I have? How convenient is it for me? And then reassess as you go along, but it doesn't have to start big.
Brock Ashby (23:35):
Yeah, I like the idea of the whole convenience thing. I think physical activity in this day and age is an inconvenience, but you have to lean into that. You have to almost inconvenience yourself. My wife and I, we'll just walk to the grocery store and we could drive there. It'll take, I dunno, two minutes, but we walk and it takes 10 to 15. Cool with a child, maybe throw an extra five minutes on there. But that is inconvenient for us, that have schedules, that have busy
Nancy Sokarno (24:09):
Lifestyles,
Brock Ashby (24:10):
Wake windows to follow for our daughter or meetings or things that we have to do. But that inconvenience of physical activity is like, it's
Nancy Sokarno (24:20):
Good for you.
Brock Ashby (24:21):
Yeah, it's good for you. But also I think there's beauty in things like you touched in it, you can see other people when you do it. So you can almost layer physical activity with social activity. So you can see a friend that you haven't seen in ages. You can see a family member, take your daughter outside for a walk. What were you do? Or you can, during Covid, I kind of had this mental schedule in my head that I would have this list of people that I would call instead of just walking. So it'd be like, my nana approaching 90 years old. Wow, my sister-in-Law, my brother, my other brother, all this stuff. I would have this. So if that person, I
Nancy Sokarno (24:55):
Would check in with these
Brock Ashby (24:55):
People. So if Nana didn't pick up
Nancy Sokarno (24:58):
Onto the next,
Brock Ashby (24:59):
And then tomorrow, the next day, I'll start from wherever I left off. So that would help me during the time where we couldn't see anyone physically
Nancy Sokarno (25:06):
Feel connected to those important people in your life
Brock Ashby (25:09):
And checking in on them as well, they were going through similar things. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's a nice idea of, okay, it doesn't just have to be movement. It can be movement plus something else that also can make it a bit more exciting because it's like, well, I'm not just going for this monotonous walk, step after step, how boring. It's like, well, now I get to FaceTime someone. Or you can make the most of technology
Nancy Sokarno (25:31):
And group activities I think are, especially because we're adults now, and that's so heavily pushed on kids, go and do a team sport. It's really good for you. It's good for socialising, it's good for teamwork. All of those things. I think it's still really good. And again, I know that we're more time poor than we've ever been before because we're trying to fit in 500 different things at the same time. But it'ss so nice to go and show up to training, for example, on a Thursday night after work and see all your mates and talk about what's been going on for you. And it's one hour of just chasing a ball around and you're moving and you're socialising, and you're getting outside and you're not so sedentary, coming home from work and then doing more work and then domestic duties and then going to sleep kind of thing. So I think that if it's possible and you have the capacity to do so, yeah, I encourage movement plus socialising and connectedness and feeling like you belong somewhere as well, which is such an important thing for each and every one of us. And yeah, we lost a lot of that during Covid, so it's something that I really push on my clients now. Please reconnect, spend time with your friends and family, go outside, do social things because you've missed out on that.
Brock Ashby (26:48):
Yeah, I started Brazilian Jiujitsu in 2021. Oh, nice. And just what you said before, the whole comradery, talking about things in your life. Obviously we are there to do the arts of jiujitsu and learn techniques and stuff, but you're like with another dude or a chick and you're learning moves and stuff, and in between you're talking and I'm like, man, so nice. Yeah, man. I remember I saw one of the guys from Juujitsu down at the beach while my wife and I walking in, and I just shouted out. I was like, Jesse, Jesse. And my wife was like, what's going on? Who is this guy? And I didn't realise I'd formed another friendship and there's kind of like brothers. Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (27:27):
So
Brock Ashby (27:28):
Nice because working for yourself, for me, I was face-to-face, personal trainer. Then I went to online all I would
Nancy Sokarno (27:35):
Super isolating
Brock Ashby (27:36):
During Covid. And even after, sometimes the only person I would see in real life was my wife or my fiance at the time. But I was like,
Nancy Sokarno (27:45):
You've seen so many people, right? Because you're online and you are interacting, but it just doesn't feel the same.
Brock Ashby (27:51):
It's not the same. And now it feels so different to have, I guess my friend group went from shrinking down to, well, I still have my solid amounts of friends, but I guess my bumps into people spontaneously has
Nancy Sokarno (28:04):
Expanded.
Brock Ashby (28:04):
Yeah. I'm like, oh man, it feels nice. And it's kind of something that you don't think about, but when you do analyse it, you're like, okay, man, I actually was very isolated before.
Nancy Sokarno (28:14):
I mean, loneliness is debilitating. We're herd animals. We need connection. We need people. There is no, this lone wolf mentality. We were, again, going back to evolution. We built tribes. We needed people around us to connect, to feel safe with, to draw on their strengths when we had weaknesses. And it's again, still very important. We are continuing to evolve. We can't lose sight of how important those things innately that is for us to feel love and connection and support and belonging. So yeah, for whoever's listening to this, I think that I want you to make conscious choices around being connected, socialising. And if we talk about depression, for example, the first thing that any client says to me is, I just want to be alone. I feel so overwhelmed with everything. I feel disconnected. I don't want to talk to anyone. And I'm like, that is just perpetuating what you're experiencing because you're validating the fact that you are alone as much as you feel that you don't want to, who do you feel safest with? And can you just be in their physical presence? You don't even have to say anything. You can sit opposed on the couch on your phone, but there's another human being in the room.
(29:43)
And yeah, I just think it's so important. I cannot stress that enough.
Brock Ashby (29:48):
So on top of loneliness, what do you think personally? Obviously you have your clients coming to you, you have your observations in the real world. What do you think contributes to people's depression? I know that's a big question. It's like, well, there's like a million things,
Nancy Sokarno (30:06):
But yeah, there's lots of variables.
Brock Ashby (30:07):
Loneliness
Nancy Sokarno (30:08):
Is
Brock Ashby (30:09):
Pretty
Nancy Sokarno (30:10):
Solid feeling, not good enough comparison, like we said, especially online, there's lots of anxiety around the timeline. What should I be doing at what stage of my life? And I don't feel like I am there when everyone else is, which is also not the case. But again, it looks to be that way. And we're constantly looking online at everyone's highlight reel and then comparing it to our behind the scenes, and it just doesn't match up. I want to be here, but I can't be for X, y, z reasons. And there's just so many variables that come into play when it's either depression or anxiety. And I think, again, it's been extremely prevalent. Yes, everyone has experienced these things in the past, and again, I use the word everyone. I don't actually mean everyone. Lots of people. And it's way more prevalent online now, and people are seeing other people's stories, and people are feeling more comfortable being vulnerable online.
(31:16)
And so it feels like a lot more people are anxious, a lot more people are depressed. And going back to, I guess the isolation of, yeah, there were so many terrible things that happened during covid and people were really impacted by that. And so it's really hard to say all of the things that contribute, but definitely that, yeah, we feel a little bit lonelier. We feel that we are not meeting the standard that we should. We're comparing ourselves to other people. We're not rich and famous and shredded and have this car and go on these holidays, et cetera, et cetera. And we feel pretty flat about it.
Brock Ashby (31:59):
So how do we feel content with that stuff? I definitely have a aspirational side of me. I want to achieve this and I want to achieve that. Or ambitious maybe is the right word. Thankfully, I can balance it with, I guess, reality of I'm not going to have what this person has. Maybe I don't even want it, but there are things that I want. So I always have this element of not being happy or let's say not being content, because I guess maybe I might be fearful that if I get a hundred percent content, then I feel like I'm going to slow down and be lazy. So
Nancy Sokarno (32:41):
You're driven by the challenge of not being
Brock Ashby (32:43):
There? Well, I like
Nancy Sokarno (32:44):
Movement.
Brock Ashby (32:45):
I like movement. I like feeling like I'm progressing, feel like I'm going somewhere. But you can open up your phone and you can just see, oh, this guy just bought a Lamborghini. It's like, oh, man,
Nancy Sokarno (32:58):
That's cool.
Brock Ashby (33:00):
But then I could think, man, that's pretty far away from me. Like, oh, man, maybe I'm not doing so good. He's younger than me. I'm behind.
Nancy Sokarno (33:07):
I feel like they're younger than me. They're at this age doing these things, and I'm at this age doing these things. That's
Brock Ashby (33:15):
Huge. A lot of people think that.
Nancy Sokarno (33:18):
I think that if we shift our perspective a little bit and go, well, what does that person buying a Lamborghini say to me? Is it that they have freedom? Is it that they have financial stability? Is it that they are succeeding in some element of their life? If you can look for that and then reframe it in, how can I gain that in my life without the Lamborghini? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (33:43):
What does my version of that look like? Yeah,
Nancy Sokarno (33:44):
So for example, another PT is comparing themselves to you because you've gone online and they're still face-to-face, and they're like, wow, Brock has so much flexibility and time, and he gets to do X, Y, Z on Fridays. He doesn't work on Fridays anymore. And I'm so jealous or envious of that. But it's like, okay, well, are you jealous and envious that Brock's accomplishments, or are you jealous that he's got more time? And so what does that look like for you? How do you form more time? What does time mean to you? And again, we can go down into that, but I can gain those things for myself just in different ways. And that's really helpful because it's like, oh, I feel more financially stable because I started consciously saving 10 extra dollars a week. It's super small, but I'm working towards it, so I feel like I'm like, awesome. I, I'm challenging myself. I want to progress. That feels really productive. That feels really purposeful. That's important to me.
Brock Ashby (34:53):
And also, I think that helps build confidence too, when you break things down. You talked about, I think you mentioned with depression, feeling like you're not good enough. I feel like when you break down things and they become more achievable, it can help build that self-efficacy. Like, oh, I actually
Nancy Sokarno (35:10):
I'm worthy.
Brock Ashby (35:10):
Yeah, I'm worthy. Yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to say, because even if you're trying to save for a house, it can seem really far
Nancy Sokarno (35:16):
Away, especially in Sydney.
Brock Ashby (35:19):
Let's talk about apartments first. But yeah, it can be quiet. You're like, man, I need that much. And then you're like, whoa. But then you break it down to how much is it a year? How much is it a month? How much is it a week? And then, okay, daily a day, let's just stop buying a coffee every day and make it at home. That could be realistic. Yeah, correct. And then that builds like, okay, maybe I am worthy of that person that gets a house who I want to be so I can step into and then that can pour into other things.
Nancy Sokarno (35:48):
Absolutely. And I think that for me, goals are, they're challenging because the moment that one thing doesn't work out the way that you wanted to, you feel like you have failed that goal. I really switched that up, especially in therapy. My thing is intentions. I intend to focus consciously on my physical health. That's an intention. If I go to the gym on Monday and I go for a walk on Tuesday, and I roll around on my carpet on Wednesday, my intention is still movement. It's paying attention to my physical health, but it's ever changing and adapting dependent on my capacity, capability, time, et cetera. But I'm still not failing. I'm still working towards the intention that feels like I am kicking goals. So if your intention is financial stability, what does that look like for you? And how can you achieve that each and every day in minor increments that gets you to that end goal? Purchasing of the home, what can I do today that feels achievable to me, that is low impact, convenient, et cetera, et cetera, that it's not going to break the bank, so on and so forth. And it's like I am saving towards a house. Sure. I don't have $200,000 in my bank account right now, but I'm working towards it.
Brock Ashby (37:15):
And I think that intentions are great for getting started. It's less overwhelming. You're like, I just need to move in this direction. And then maybe I'm not trying to share this on top of your idea, but I think personally for me, who likes or numbers or things that I would have that intent and then I could narrow down what each step looks like, but as long as I'm in that general
Nancy Sokarno (37:36):
Direction
Brock Ashby (37:37):
Trajectory, then I can fine tune it later on. But it's just that movement first.
Nancy Sokarno (37:41):
But again, it's like what works for you if you are someone who is
Brock Ashby (37:45):
Not everyone's like me? Yeah,
Nancy Sokarno (37:46):
Correct. If you are capable of setting up a goal for yourself and having these 10 steps that you need to achieve to have this goal, great. If that works for you, amazing. And again, like I said, everyone's instruction manual is very different. And so what works for you may not work for me and may not work for the next person, but that's okay. I was saying before, we are so different and we require so many different variables to get to the same results, and so it doesn't have to fit. You might listen to one of Brock's podcasts and go, wow, that's such a great idea, but I can't do that because this and this and this. It's like, okay, cool, but how could you do that? If you really liked the idea that Brock proposed on this podcast and you're like, that's sick. How do you then digest that in a different way and then implement it in your life with all the things about yourself instead of being like, there's no way I can do that because I've got all of these things happening and Brock doesn't have all of these happening. This is redundant for me. And it's like, well, you can get something from anything really. You've just got to know what you're looking for.
Brock Ashby (39:00):
Yeah. I think I really learned that art when I was dealing with people face-to-face as a client, because I had, because I feel like when you don't have kids, it's really hard to understand that life, because I was also, so I lived very selfishly. I moved out of home. I was just like, I need to pay my bill. I need to make my salary or make my wage. I want to hit this goal and I want to do that. It was all about me, and I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And then when I started coaching mothers and fathers while also being business owners or also having this hobby that they wanted to play netball Wednesday and Friday, I was like, man, I'm just a single dude that's a personal trainer. I can walk on the gym floor whenever I want and train. Correct. And I used to just at the start, I was scratching my head. I was like, maybe they're just not committed, and then you can grow up a bit. And you're like,
Nancy Sokarno (39:55):
No,
Brock Ashby (39:55):
They're just busy. They've just got other priorities. But for me, if a client would cancel, let's say, I'd be like, I'm training. I'm already at the gym. I was going to be on the gym floor anyway, but now I'm just going to work out. So it was so easy for me to train, and
Nancy Sokarno (40:09):
Then because your lifestyle fit,
Brock Ashby (40:12):
But then other people have other things that they want to achieve. And then I'm like, man, maybe it is they have other things they want to do. I was like, it's just three times a week, 45 minutes. I was like, come on. You said, they're like, oh, if I need done two. And I'm like, but they're like, oh, I had to take my kids to the hospital. Then we had a prize giving and all this kind of stuff. I was just always just do it. But it's so much more complex
Nancy Sokarno (40:36):
Than that. It's so hard, I guess, to empathise with situations when you have never experienced, I
Brock Ashby (40:43):
Had zero empathy for everyone. I was such a cold personal trainer. I don't know why people train with me this time. I was like, I just didn't, A lot of my clients, even when they first met me, I was very cold. And I think that was just from having no empathy, no life experience. Mine was just like if I had to, I would just do anything. I would sleep in my car, I would eat. I remember when I lived in Auckland, had no money. I would only eat, what's it called, organ meats and reduce the clear vegetables. I was broke. I would go past Woolworths or whatever and go straight to the Chinese market where everything was cheap and reduce the clear, because I was like, I didn't have the money to do it. So in my head, I was like, you just don't want it enough. You
Nancy Sokarno (41:25):
Can just do anything if you put your mind to it.
Brock Ashby (41:28):
Well, I was like that, and I thought everyone should be like me.
Nancy Sokarno (41:32):
But that's the thing. And I think that, again, and this is tangenting a little bit, but this hustle culture stuff, just do it. Slogan is just get it done. Stop with the excuses, stop with the justifications. Anyone can do anything, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, sure. But you have to really take into account that there is so much other stuff happening for different people. And like I said, your instruction manual is very different to the next person. So it's unfair for people to look at the next person, be like, man, it's only 45 minutes three times a week. Why can't you commit to that? You obviously don't want gains, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, I do, but as well as wanting those things for myself, I have all of these other priorities and things that I'm responsible for that take up my time and that I feel it is really difficult.
(42:31)
And that's barriers to change. I talk to my clients about, here, you've come to me and you've said that you want to work on dah, dah, dah, dah things. And I'm like, awesome. That's great. What's standing in your way? Is it time? Is it that you have a difficult home environment? Is it that you are financially strained? Is it we really look at the things that's the roadblocks to change, and we work through those things instead of being like, okay, you want to do these things, here is a steps. Do it. Awesome. Go and do that. Come back to me when you have, and it's like, that's not reasonable. What is standing in your way? And like we said before, in terms of movement and physical activity and going to the gym or getting a PT or committing to X amount of times of movement a week, it's like, what is standing in my way? And address those things first, and then look at your capacity and then make changes thereafter. And find sustainable ways to incorporate those things into your life that you can do without too much hassle.
Brock Ashby (43:37):
And even some people struggle to just get to the gym. Yeah, I did. I'm still yet to release it, but I recorded a podcast the other day. It was just a solo one on creating a positive gym culture. And the biggest consideration with that is the person that hates the gym or doesn't want to beat at the gym, kind of why you're trying to create this gym culture so everyone can come in and feel welcome. A lot of people don't want to
Nancy Sokarno (44:03):
Do it if they come in in general, right? You've got to get them there first.
Brock Ashby (44:08):
They must drop the coast to get there. But then if they're there and then you're just like, ah, and you're just screaming, or you're not smiling, or you're not hygienic, or you're not wiping down, slamming
Nancy Sokarno (44:19):
Weights into the ground.
Brock Ashby (44:20):
Exactly. Then they get there and they go, shit, this is exactly what people said. It's going to be like, I'm not here. I don't want to be here yet. Yeah. This isn't for me. And I trained a lot of people that have that, the gym anxiety, because you confide in a personal trainer and you feel like you have this guardian angel to create this safe space for you, but not everyone can just walk into the gym and just feel like they're this kind of confident person. And I want to talk about, or I guess transition into self-esteem in that, because maybe gym anxiety is kind of tied to it. Maybe not, but can you, I guess, define it and then be like, how can we improve it? Because I personally, I think through my parenting that I had growing up, I was always encouraged and like, oh, yeah, you can do it. So I never really felt like, oh, I couldn't do this. I couldn't do that because parents were so supportive, which is great.
Nancy Sokarno (45:20):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (45:20):
Yeah, a hundred percent. But obviously that's not everyone's case.
Nancy Sokarno (45:24):
Definitely
Brock Ashby (45:24):
Not. And you would've dealt with that
Nancy Sokarno (45:27):
Day to day. I think that perception of self is really important. I think where we've got our lines crossed a little bit is we're more concerned today about how others perceive us. I saw this quote ages ago, and it's a little bit of a tongue tie, twister, but I'm not who I think I am. I'm not who you think I am. I am who I think you think I am. So yeah, I say that to my clients and they look at me, what? Can you repeat that? Can you say that in a sentence? I'm more concerned about what I think you think of me than I think of me. And so
Brock Ashby (46:17):
I think that's true for so many people.
Nancy Sokarno (46:18):
Yeah, absolutely. And so then we try and formulate our self-esteem around what we think people think of us rather than what we think of ourselves. And that's where I think we've got it wrong, because I should be more concerned about how I feel about me versus how someone else feels about me. And when we are working on our, what is my perception of myself? What is my self-image? I am all of these things. And actually Instagram just released threads. Oh
Brock Ashby (46:53):
Man. I'm trying to wrap my head around it.
Nancy Sokarno (46:54):
Don't even bring that up.
Brock Ashby (46:55):
I'm like, do I use it? Do I not?
Nancy Sokarno (46:58):
Do I post
Brock Ashby (46:58):
A photo or do I not? Is it just text
Nancy Sokarno (47:02):
To go into war with Twitter?
Brock Ashby (47:03):
Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (47:05):
But my first thread comment was, who are you? I want to drop that first. The illusion of who am I? And I guess it's the age old question, the cliche coming into therapy and being like, who am I? It's very hard to answer when I have actually asked that question to a lot of clients. Most people look at me very confused and feel kind of baffled that they can't answer that question. So then you think about, okay, well, self-esteem is derived in knowing who I am and feeling positively about myself and being really confident about my identity and the perception of self is that I walk around being this person because I know who that is. But I feel like a lot of us don't know that. And so we wait for others to tell us who we are.
Brock Ashby (48:06):
Yeah. That's who I am.
Nancy Sokarno (48:08):
What do you think of me?
Brock Ashby (48:09):
Yeah. What do you reckon?
Nancy Sokarno (48:10):
Yeah. And you're like, yeah, I think you're really funny. I'm like, okay, cool. I guess I'm funny then I'm funny.
Brock Ashby (48:15):
Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (48:16):
Or
Brock Ashby (48:17):
It's really easy to just say, and I do this is just say what I do. Right? Who are you? I'm a personal trainer. It's like, no, that's your job. Yeah, it's a tricky one. It's a tricky one. But I know that that's what I will
Nancy Sokarno (48:30):
Done. It's not solely who you are, but
Brock Ashby (48:33):
It's the
Nancy Sokarno (48:34):
Easiest, I
Brock Ashby (48:35):
Guess. Yeah. When you are, I guess, self-employed or it's very tied to who you are, because that's,
Nancy Sokarno (48:41):
It feels like your
Brock Ashby (48:41):
Identity. Yeah. You're like, that's what I do every day for 40 hours a week, or maybe even 80 self care, bro. But that's what you think about. That's what you do, and that does make up who you are. But then I kind of thought, well, if I'm just saying that I would like to
Nancy Sokarno (48:58):
Expand on that a little
Brock Ashby (48:59):
Bit, be a bit more than what I do, then it's like, well, when you stop doing that, who are you? Then what do you do? Do you just go into this breakdown of like, oh, I don't
Nancy Sokarno (49:06):
Know who I'm, yeah, this identity crisis. Yeah. Well, I want you to think about this, right?
Brock Ashby (49:10):
Are you counselling me? Right?
Nancy Sokarno (49:12):
Well, this is for you and for everybody that's listening, right? My thoughts become my behaviours and my behaviours become my habits and my habits become my identity. So for example, if I cut your hair this morning, it doesn't make me a hairdresser or a barber, but if I go into a salon and I cut hair five hours a day, five days a week, for the next six months, I am. So what do you do consistently that makes you feel like it is part of your identity? And so yes, you are a PT because you do that every single day of your life, but you are also now a father, and you're a husband, and you're a friend, and you're a sibling, and you're a son, and you're kind and compassionate and supportive and patient and tolerant and driven and ambitious and perseverant and resilient and all of these things. And because you are those things, they become who you are. And so when someone says to you, who are you? Tell them what feels like the most consistent things that
Brock Ashby (50:20):
You do. I am persistent. I'm diligent. Give them a big list.
Nancy Sokarno (50:23):
But that's who you are. And so I think a task that I set for my clients to try and find those consistencies is what have you achieved in your life? And I don't mean I went to university and I became a dad and I bought a house because yeah, great, their achievements. But some people are like, I've achieved literally nothing. I've gone into this space in my life. I've a lot of people say that I've done nothing. And I'm like, well, that's not true. You have accomplished. Did you get out of a relationship that you felt was really bad for you? And it was really difficult to do, but you didn't? Did you grow a veggie patch in your backyard and the first tomato sprouted and you were like, oh my God, shit, this is crazy. Did you clean a room that you felt was so overwhelming to the point where you just had let go for three months, but finally must up the courage to do so? We accomplish things every day, depending on the scale, obviously, of those accomplishments. But in each accomplishment, you need these traits to get you through. And so if you think about transitioning for you from face-to-face clients to an online system and an online platform for your clients, what did you need in order for you to make that transition? Tell me about the traits that you required to do that
Brock Ashby (51:40):
Risk taking. Risk.
Nancy Sokarno (51:41):
Great. Okay. Cool. What
Brock Ashby (51:44):
Else? Yeah. What else did I think a big one is courage. Absolutely. Because there was nothing set in stone. I was just like, I'm just going to do it. And I think that's been, it's a pro, but it can also be a con, but it's just throwing myself out there, and I just rely on myself to adapt.
Nancy Sokarno (52:04):
So I feel like I'm quite resilient or I'm adaptable and I take risks and I back myself. And I have some self-trust and I, I'm ambitious and driven by challenge. And that's just one thing that you've done in your life that has then spouted out all of these things that you are, and then you can find consistencies in that, because I'm sure that you've done other courageous things or you've been resilient in other elements of your life. And so if you track all these things, you're like, wow, there's a pattern here. Get some
Brock Ashby (52:38):
Data.
Nancy Sokarno (52:39):
And I think that when our anxious minds or these really negative self-talk things happen for us and we ruminate about the things that we haven't done or we should be doing, or periods of our lives where we felt really down and really flat and we're like, I'm useless. I have not accomplished or achieved anything thus far. I feel really just down about myself, go back into your life and find the smallest thing and find the attributes that fit. And you over time build this really detailed data of actually I am some really amazing things. I just haven't taken the time to consciously search for them.
Brock Ashby (53:25):
Yeah, I've got a way that I do it. I guess a little bit backwards towards what you're saying, but because I guess I have that data in my head of the things that I've done and the things or who I am. I took this from, I've took this a few times on my podcast, but I took it from when I used to go to church back in the day, and I used to pray every morning, the whole gratitude thing. And I guess pursuing to be, well, if you are Christian, it's to be as God or to be like God, so you want these kind of attributes. So I kind of turned it into a self-affirmation, and I would say, I am this. I'm that. I'm generous. I am kind, et cetera. I'm hardworking. I am generous. I already said that, but so I have this big list. And like you said, the more data you get, the more you can kind of go, oh, wow, I'm this and that. So I would do say these things, but I would kind of go, that doesn't really, that's not really, I don't know how to word it not true to me. It was just a
Nancy Sokarno (54:30):
Nice word. It doesn't align with me. Does it resonate with me?
Brock Ashby (54:33):
Yeah, I would love to be that, but it's not really me. So I would keep, it's just a notes on my laptop. Cool. And I just keep changing it, or what do I want to aspire to be? Because growing up, well, especially at church, I kind of really struggled with this being generous thing because I was at many times in my life, not saying that my family didn't provide for me at all. They always did. But when I moved out of home and really was living scarcely looking for reduced to clear vegetables, I was pretty tight. And I was like, the concept of generosity at that time was crazy. I was like, how could I pay for someone's dinner?
Nancy Sokarno (55:09):
I can't pay for my own.
Brock Ashby (55:11):
Because at church, I had this mentor that always paid for my dinner, and I was like, I want to be like him. Every time he did it, I was number one. I'd feel a bit guilty. I was like, shits man. This is seventh time this week. This guy's paid for a meal. But then I was like, when I'm older, I want to do that. Or when I have money, I want to be able to do that, but he's like, you can do it now. And I was like, but man, I'm literally pretty tight. And he's like, it doesn't have to look like that. It could look like $1 here.
Nancy Sokarno (55:36):
It could look like your time. It's time.
Brock Ashby (55:39):
And that was the big one. I was like, oh, time. That's a, you've
Nancy Sokarno (55:42):
Got an abundant, I guess. Yeah. When
Brock Ashby (55:45):
You don't have I
Nancy Sokarno (55:46):
Money inventory of that, you usually have time.
Brock Ashby (55:49):
So I was like, yeah. So that was one thing I really draw on. But that's kind of one way I've kind tried to curate this future Brock Ashby that I want to become or that I want to aspire to be. Or that who, well,
Nancy Sokarno (56:00):
That's your ideal. Who I want to be ideal self. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (56:03):
So I'm continually striving to that.
Nancy Sokarno (56:06):
In that same breath, the self-image is the person that you are today, the person that you envision yourself to be today. Your ideal self is the person you aspire to be, your full potential. This is the best version of Brock ever. And if I dropped dead tomorrow, I'd be like, yeah, that guy was killing it. And so you then look at the discrepancy between the two, because if you think of a Venn diagram, the more spaced out the circles and the bigger the gap, the lower the self-esteem because it's like, I am not who I want to be, but the more crossover there is, the higher the self-esteem. I am who I want to be. And so another really fun little task that you can do is, who is Brock today? This is my self image. And who do I want Brock to be ideally? And that discrepancy is the barriers. What is standing in the way of my two circles overlapping and me being my full potential self. And so if you'd struggle with low self-esteem and you think, I wish I was this, this, and this person, look at who you are today and who you want to be, and then work towards bridging the gap.
Brock Ashby (57:25):
I think that's a really great tool of literally a very practical way of seeing that's what needs to change.
Nancy Sokarno (57:31):
And look the barriers, there's so many of them. What happens if I change who I am and I work towards that ideal version? No one knows that version. Will they like that version? Will they still want to be friends with me? Will they want to stay in a relationship with me? Am I going to be accepted if I walk away from this person of who I think that I am right now, but I really want better for myself? I want different things for myself. Why am I scared to move towards that? Is it a lot of time? Is it a lot of effort? Is it risk taking? Is it that I have to invest in something that I don't know is going to have a positive outcome, but I've got to try? Anyway? All of those questions that you need to ask yourself as you challenge yourself to move into that ideal self.
Brock Ashby (58:20):
I like that. I want to just talk about this one quote on your website before it was actually, oh, the water bottle's over there. Sorry, I should have cut it
Nancy Sokarno (58:27):
Here.
Brock Ashby (58:28):
But it says, talk about therapy. Like you talk about going to the gym. I've never heard that before. Did you make that up?
Nancy Sokarno (58:34):
Yeah, I did. Whether I found it and then felt really close to it, or I maybe saw a derivative of it. I'm not going to claim it, but it definitely is whether I saw it and I thought, wow, this really, really resonates with me.
Brock Ashby (58:56):
Yeah, what resonates
Nancy Sokarno (58:58):
With that? Yeah. The gym has been something that I have loved for so long. I think I first started going to the gym in year 11, so I would've been 16 going on 17. I'm the earlier years, and I just found solace in the gym. And I spend a lot of time in the gym. I exercise six days a week, and I do different variations of things. I do reformer Pilates, I do boxing, I weight train, but everyone speaks about the gym all the time, right?
Brock Ashby (59:37):
Sometimes too much.
Nancy Sokarno (59:39):
And it is, I feel like, anyway, and maybe because the circles that I run in, people also love the gym, but the gym is just the most talked about topic.
Brock Ashby (59:51):
Right. It's so easy to talk about when you're into it as well.
Nancy Sokarno (59:53):
Yeah. What do you do? Where do you go? What do you lift? What's your, I dunno, what do you do on chest? How much do you squat? Yeah, just
Brock Ashby (01:00:03):
Split. Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (01:00:05):
What do you do on Tuesdays? Have you been to the gym today? How long did you spend at the, there's just all of these questions and people are so readily available with this enthusiasm and this passion to talk about the gym. And because I'm part of that world, I was like, I wish that people felt as driven and passionate about therapy as they did about the gym. And I wish that people felt comfortable and secure and safe to have conversations about going to therapy because it's such an important tool. And in my mind, therapy is the mind gym. And if I feel so passionately driven by the physical gym, then I was like, just as you spend all of this time working on your body, why have you left your mind behind? Our mind is attached. Our brain is attached to our body. It's not separate from, and I think people think whether, again, it's stigma that still is lingering around, it's 2023. Let's get it moving here. Mental health is directly correlated to physical health. Physical health is directly correlated to your mental health. It's not separate. It's one in the same.
Brock Ashby (01:01:23):
Yeah. Do you think the barrier is that mental health or talking about ideas around therapy and things that you may struggle with or things that you may have overcome is so closely tied to who you are? Because I feel like when you go to the gym, it's just muscles and fat and bones and angles of joints. It's not you, it's just, it's a squat. It's not me. But when you talk about things like mental health, it's like, Hey, man, I've been crying every night. It's like, whoa, that's you. And that's a bit closer to home.
Nancy Sokarno (01:01:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's just so much judgement around whether it's internalised judgement , whether it's external judgments, whether it's, again, the stigma that's been formulated around. If you go to therapy, and I use this with inverted commas crazy, which is also crazy to me that that's still the perception in 2023. But yeah, I think that it's the fear of judgement . People are so happy to speak about the gym because the judgement is positive, right? It's like, oh my God, you go to the gym, that's so great. Oh, you're working on yourself. Oh, these are the sets you're doing. These are the reps you're doing. Like, oh my God, I can't believe you lift that heavy. Or You're so good at doing Advanced Springs on at reformer. That's amazing. It feels really positive. But I guess the feeling of talking about therapy, and I am generalising here, but is quite negative.
(01:03:00)
I mean, amongst lots of different population groups, it's like, oh my God, amazing. You go to therapy, that's so great. Where do you go? What books are you reading? And I feel like we're leaning into that, which I absolutely love. And I guess the reason why I started social media in the first place is because I wanted a platform where people could access a feeling of togetherness. And me too. I experienced these things too. And it isn't a foreign thing that I'm isolated and alone and experiencing that all of these other people feel very similar to me. The same way that people feel so connected and that they can share in those experiences in the gym. And so yeah, talk about therapy. You talk about going to the gym is literally, I feel so closely tied to, because I want the concept of going to therapy to be as normal unquote as speaking about going to the gym
Brock Ashby (01:03:52):
Often. Like, oh, you must be going through something. Are you okay?
Nancy Sokarno (01:03:56):
It's a problem.
Brock Ashby (01:03:57):
People feel sorry for you instead of being like, I'm happy for you.
Nancy Sokarno (01:04:00):
Yeah. I think that's great. There are so many people who are, sure. Yeah, therapy is extremely helpful when there is crisis or you are experiencing trauma, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, all of the diagnoses. But I do so much therapy with people who are growing themselves, bettering themselves, developing. And not to say that we are not doing those things when we're dealing with these presenting problems either, but there are people I want to communicate better or I want to have a healthier relationship with my partner or in conflict. I find it really difficult to be assertive or have boundaries. How do I do that better? And I love that because people are coming to therapy now being like, how do I get better than what I'm doing right now? And I instantly am smiling like, I love that for you. That's so great that you are like, cool.
(01:04:55)
I've identified that these are the things that I feel like I could foster within myself, and I'm going to get the tools and the resources and the strategies to be able to do that. And when people are had a conversation with someone about something that I felt really off about, but I articulated it in a way where I felt really respected and I was assertive, and I felt so good. That conversation was amazing. I was like, good. That's so great that you're able to do that. And I hope that so many of us seek therapy because we want to be better. We want to be better partners, we want to be better colleagues. We want to be better siblings or children. I think that it's good for us to keep working at ourselves the same way that we would going to the gym and lifting heavy or doing more sets or doing more reps or trying a completely different movement and perfecting that. I want people to do that for their mind as well.
Brock Ashby (01:05:53):
And that's ultimately what we're doing in the gym anyway. You would, in therapy, let's say overcome trauma, you're doing the same in the gym If you are, let's say obese, that can be seen as trauma to the body? Well,
Nancy Sokarno (01:06:08):
Yeah. Well, it is, trauma is the impact of, right? So there's a stressful event. So for example, if you showed up at the emergency room and you had blunt force trauma to the head, we would be looking at the wound, not the hammer that caused it. So it's trauma is the impact that these things have. So obesity is the impact of, right? You have visceral fat around your organs, your cardiovascular system is more impacted, your quality of life is not as good, et cetera, et cetera. That's impacting you.
Brock Ashby (01:06:46):
It's literally the same thing as therapy, but it's just the body as opposed to the mind. But it's like if you're overcoming trauma in the gym, yeah, once again, it's like, man, good on you. Yeah, that's amazing. Good for you. You're working on yourself. But then it's almost with therapy, it's
Nancy Sokarno (01:06:58):
Kind of like this, oh my goodness. It's like
Brock Ashby (01:07:00):
The other way
Nancy Sokarno (01:07:01):
Around. You're working on yourself. Yeah. But yeah, the reason I guess I came on to your podcast today is because I feel extremely close to the physical movement world and physical health, because I speak about it so much in therapy. I'm like, you cannot neglect one for the other. You need to ensure that you are taking care of your physical health as well as your mental health and vice versa.
Brock Ashby (01:07:31):
Yeah. I feel, and obviously there's many different reasons, but I feel like that's why I guess I haven't really had too many struggles with my mental health because I've always locked into looking after physical health, and I feel like not that it's like if you just look after yourself physically, it's all going to be fine. No, but it definitely contributes for me personally. It's helpful.
Nancy Sokarno (01:07:51):
Yeah, it's definitely helpful. I think, again, life is so faceted and there's so many things that could occur, but what we're both saying is that if you add to your life and you benefit yourself through movement and exercise and showing up and discipline and motivation and all of those really good things, that's a benefit to your mental health. Absolutely. There is no doubt about it that if you give back to your body, your mind will thank you and vice versa.
Brock Ashby (01:08:24):
Yeah. I like to call it, well, what I say to my clients is it's just the ripple effect. I feel like it's obviously mental health, but it's also other things. I feel like I've developed a strong work ethic through the work ethic that I've had physically great. Not just sport, but also in the gym. It's like, yeah,
Nancy Sokarno (01:08:39):
It's discipline
Brock Ashby (01:08:40):
And the idea of progressive overload, making things harder over time. If you are doing that in life as well, you become more resilient, not just like your muscles.
Nancy Sokarno (01:08:47):
Absolutely. And see, it ties in so closely and why I love the gym so much, why I love the concept of movement and strength and endurance and flexibility and mobility, and pushing yourself beyond your limits and seeing that you can actually do things you never thought you could. And muscle ups, for example. I watch people in the gym do that. I'm like, wow, I literally can do half a pull up and I'm pretty strong. But that strength, and not only that, but the perseverance that you have to have to be able to get to that. I admire that.
Brock Ashby (01:09:31):
There's a lot of failures there.
Nancy Sokarno (01:09:34):
It looks crazy. My cousin is a CrossFit instructor and he's jacked, but I just see how much dedication and time, and he's got three kids and he's a lawyer and is doing really well for himself, but I see how much dedication he puts in and discipline and all of those, like we said, there's amazing traits that you require in your life in general can show up in the gym and in movement and physical activity. And so yeah, again, all interlocks. It all feeds in. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:10:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Three questions to wrap up the podcast. Yeah. What's one thing you do every day to get better?
Nancy Sokarno (01:10:25):
Move my body. Going off that each and every day, I move my body in some way depending on, like I said, time and capacity, but I wake up at 5 45, 6 o'clock in the morning. I do what I need to do, get my supplements in, et cetera. And I either go to my PT or go to reformer or go to the gym or go for a walk or skip in the backyard, whatever it is. But movement has been something that I've really, really lent into. And is stringently part of my self-care?
Brock Ashby (01:10:58):
When did that habit start?
Nancy Sokarno (01:11:02):
Like I said, I've been training since year 11, but I definitely think that really being disciplined around movement started when I became a psychologist because I know that this is a really full on job, and I take on a lot of other people's emotions, and that's really heavy. And self-care is something, not only do I preach to my clients every day, but something that I truly believe in in terms of being a well-rounded psychologist, someone who can take care of themselves first before they try and help others take care of themselves. And so not only do I want to practise what I preach, but I know that it's a vital tool for me, not only to exert anxious energy that I carry throughout the day, but it's myself giving myself mental clarity to take on other people's stuff. And so, yeah, it almost is like a non-negotiable for me each and every day. And I live for it. It brings me joy, truly. That's brilliant. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:12:06):
What's one quote that has made you better?
Nancy Sokarno (01:12:10):
I think that you can't change people's behaviour, but you can manage the impact their behaviour has on you. And I think I heard that from my supervisor when I was doing my internship. I must've been about 23, and I was always riled up by things that people did to me. I was like, how dare they do X, Y, Z? And I can't believe that they did. And I'm so hurt by that, so angry. And I remember her saying to me, you just can't change what people do, Nancy, but you can manage how it impacts you. And I was like, oh, I don't have to be rageful about it. I don't have to be losing my shit because someone did something that I felt was wrong or they did wrong by me. And she was like, yeah, you get to choose how it impacts you. And that was so powerful, and I use that too today. It's something I probably have on repeat and therapy as well for others, is that you are fully in control of how these things impact you. You get to manage that for yourself. And so for example, if you were like, Nancy, I think that you are the biggest loser that I've ever met. I could be like, Brock, why would you say that? That's terrible. I feel so hurt by that. That's really fucking mean. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Sorry. Yes, you can.
(01:13:55)
Or I could be like, Brock, if you think that I'm a loser, I guess that's your perception of me, and that has nothing to do with me. I'm like, you know what, Brock? You're a loser. I think you are just as big as a loser as I am, and so I can't change what you think of me. I change what you've said to me, but I can manage the impact.
Brock Ashby (01:14:15):
I like that. And I think that's an important skill. We talked about hateful comments, or it doesn't even have to be online
Nancy Sokarno (01:14:22):
In general. It could be
Brock Ashby (01:14:22):
Face-to-face. An idea that I like is when people cut in front of you when you're driving, if you get super angry, they could just be as happy as Larry just driving past, listen to their favourite song, just cutting in front of you. You are losing it. They're unaffected. They are still loving life just as much, but you are losing it. And then you get home and then you're angry towards your partner, and then you put that anger elsewhere. You don't have to do that. No, just keep driving. It just is what it's,
Nancy Sokarno (01:14:50):
Yeah. And exactly. You could get out of your car and start swearing and scream, which I've seen more of, which is concerning.
Brock Ashby (01:14:59):
You're in Sydney, man. It's just how it is. I
Nancy Sokarno (01:15:01):
Know. Or you could be like, Ugh, that's annoying. Or you could be like, man, I probably cut someone off last week and didn't realise. But yeah, I think that's been really helpful for me.
Brock Ashby (01:15:13):
Last question, what's one book that you think has made you better?
Nancy Sokarno (01:15:19):
I think I was saying this to you before, the Power of Now, but ECU Tole is and has been. It's a very spiritual, very enlightened book, but the concepts in that book have been, I guess, perspective shifting for me because it's a whole other world that I've never really known. And when I read that book, I remember it just made me feel some type of way, and I really have allowed myself to be more conscious, more present in the moment because of that book. And it's so easy for us to be so caught up in our minds and the future in the past, and it's allowed me to be a lot more centred and a lot more grounded. And I think that it's been a really helpful tool as well for me in being a psychologist and holding space for people in therapy, is that I'm able to be present with them and really not drift off elsewhere and think about, I need to put petrol in my car after I finish for the day, and I wonder if the chicken thawed on the sink and stuff like that. So yeah, I think that's been, I love that book so much, and I really value the concepts that he speaks about.
Brock Ashby (01:16:32):
Yeah, it is such a deep book, and I think that when I read it, I read it, and so when I read it, I was like, zero empathy. Go get it. Yeah, go get it, Brock. So I read it and I was like, I feel the same, but I read it because I was living with a family at the time when I moved out of home and I was living in a different city still in New Zealand, but I was living in a house where this guy was saying things like, I don't feel alive. I feel like I'm dreaming and saying things like that. And he was like, is this real saying really? And I was like, man, I didn't get it at all. What's going on? I didn't get it at all. And then I was like, oh, no, is he taking drugs or is he depressed? He was saying really stuff where you're like, is there some
Nancy Sokarno (01:17:23):
Guy something underlying here?
Brock Ashby (01:17:25):
Yeah. So I tried to read it for him to have a, because I gave him the book and he said, I'm not going to read it. Oh no. He said he was going to read it, but never touched it. I thought I did some research and I was like, well, that's going to help him to live in the now and figure out whatever he's going through. He didn't do it, and I read it for him. I didn't get it, and then it didn't help me help him, but I think I still remember the concept. If I read it now, I feel like I'd have a better understanding. Yeah,
Nancy Sokarno (01:17:54):
Different perception of that.
Brock Ashby (01:17:56):
I feel like you have to, I think
Nancy Sokarno (01:17:58):
You've got to
Brock Ashby (01:17:59):
Read it, read books at the right time.
Nancy Sokarno (01:18:01):
Absolutely. I think that there one person back, oh my God, this book is transformational. You must read it. It changed my life, et cetera. And then you hand that book to that person, they're like, lame. Not so much. How receptive are you to the ideas in that book? Do they resonate with you? Is that something that you're able to conceptualise and utilise Potentially? For me, I am pretty time poor, so I do a lot of audio books, but I feel like when reading, I read one because I enjoy psychology obviously, but it's also really beneficial for work. So it's a two in one package, so I only currently read psychology, et cetera, et cetera. I've just never really been into other books, but it's helpful. I mean, it fits.
Brock Ashby (01:18:50):
Yeah, I like those books too. Those are my favourite. I remember I've read one of them by Scott Peck, the Roadless Travelled. Oh, yeah, yeah. Accidentally. I was like, I think it was like I just grabbed it from a store, but I loved that one. And talking on timing of books. One thing that I've read when I left the gym, maybe because it just popped off, or maybe because I thought I needed it, but I read The Obstacle was The Way, and that was when three months before Covid hit, so I had it and I was like, but I felt like it prepared me to really attack the moment when it happened, that hit. That's why I doubled down on posting. That's why I hired someone. At the time, it was crazy. I went on this holiday with my friends and my girlfriend, well my wife now, but we'd been dating for maybe about three or four months, and we went away holiday with my dad and my friend and I did this, and I was building a website at the time. I came back, I had $2,000, which in Sydney doesn't last long. That's three weeks of rent at that time. So I was pretty tight, and I was reading that book and I was like, alright, let's go. So I really, oh yeah. Wow. Yeah, I just doubled down.
Nancy Sokarno (01:19:55):
It fit and it was such a good tool for you at that time.
Brock Ashby (01:19:59):
That's why I enjoyed that book. But other people will read it and be like, nah. Yeah, I'm not really in that mode of, I need to really, these hard things are going to benefit me later on, and this is the required path that I need to go through. But
Nancy Sokarno (01:20:12):
Sometimes, especially in those
Brock Ashby (01:20:13):
Doesn't hit like that.
Nancy Sokarno (01:20:14):
Yeah, no. And especially self-help psychology books. I think that you have to be in the right space to receive the message and you are.
Brock Ashby (01:20:23):
Yeah. Okay. How can people follow you? Do you want to say anything to anyone?
Nancy Sokarno (01:20:30):
I am Psych with socks online. Sock Squad? Yeah. And I have the Sock Squad. My last name is Sano, and everyone in school used to call me socks, so now we're psych with socks on Instagram. I do want to make a TikTok eventually. I'm kind of scared of the people on TikTok, so I've been hesitant.
Brock Ashby (01:20:51):
I would say their comments are the worst. I've received my most hate on TikTok.
Nancy Sokarno (01:20:55):
I don't know what it is.
Brock Ashby (01:20:57):
I'm a mansplainer, apparently. Oh,
Nancy Sokarno (01:21:00):
Well, people are savage on TikTok. I'm like, I
Brock Ashby (01:21:03):
Don't care, man.
Nancy Sokarno (01:21:04):
Whatever. Yeah, it's a platform that I'd like to break into. But yeah, I have Instagram. I started on YouTube originally. I saw that. Yeah. I was such a baby on there. It just took too much time. And then I was like, I'm over this now. But yeah, cycl with stocks on Instagram, and I'm cycl with stocks.com.
Brock Ashby (01:21:28):
Do you have space to see people face-to-face or not?
Nancy Sokarno (01:21:30):
I have closed my books for a little while now. I am at Capacity. Great. That's a good problem. Yeah, I think I had a pretty hectic year this year. I got married recently and going on honeymoons and all of those things, so I think that I wanted to really be present for the clients that I currently have. And yeah, I don't have the capacity right now, but it's definitely something that I want to look into reevaluating soon.
Brock Ashby (01:22:03):
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming onto the podcast. Thank
Nancy Sokarno (01:22:05):
You so much for
Brock Ashby (01:22:06):
Having me, and thanks for spreading the message, not only about mental health, but how physical activity leads into that. Obviously, as a personal trainer, I'm a big believer behind that, and I spread similar messages, obviously not in as much psychological detail as you do, but I'm very physical activity for mental health, for mental health, and my clients have felt the difference in all aspects of their life as well. But it's really awesome to see someone not just almost ignoring such a big part of what life is like because it's not just do your mental health stuff over here and just like, oh yeah, your sedentary and whatever. Just keep doing this stuff. It's going to get better. It's like, let's bring up all legs of the table to make sure that we're not
Nancy Sokarno (01:22:55):
Wobbly. Wobbly. And I think, I thought for a long time that PTs and coaches really do need to get themselves well versed in mental health and as much as obviously their scope of practise, but understanding that with every single client that they face, they are experiencing some sort of mental health challenge or hurdle. Doesn't have to be a diagnosis, but just challenge in general. And understanding mental health makes for a better coach and a better pt because there are barriers and variables that you need to take into account when you're looking at progressive clients and commitment and retention and all of those things. So maybe that's something I'll consult on one day.
Brock Ashby (01:23:39):
Yeah, I think it's super important, and I think we are seeing coaches become a bit more, well-rounded as opposed to the commando coach. Let's do a hundred pushups go, go, go. Just shouting. I don't think people want to be shouted at anymore.
Nancy Sokarno (01:23:50):
I don't think they ever wanted to be
Brock Ashby (01:23:52):
Shouted at. I think if you want something intense like that, CrossFit's a great environment, but for one-on-one pt, the whole commando coach thing, yeah. I don't think people deep down wanted that. No, I think they thought they wanted that, but ultimately, I don't think long-term it ever worked. I've never done that approach. But yeah, I think people are kind of being a bit more empathetic and a bit more understanding because it's so important to actually make it feel physical health feel a bit more welcoming as well. Not just like, oh, I feel so good, but then I just get shouted at and just hate my workouts, but I have to do it now. It's like, oh, it all works together. Yeah.
Nancy Sokarno (01:24:23):
Yeah, I think that's the way forward.
Brock Ashby (01:24:26):
All right, then we'll wrap it up there. Thank
Nancy Sokarno (01:24:27):
You so much.
Brock Ashby (01:24:28):
Awesome.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Before I was an online personal trainer in 2019, I was a face-to-face personal trainer in 2015. So I know a lot about gym culture and how members act in a gym. In this podcast, we're going to unpack how to create a positive gym culture and how to do that as a member in the gym and as a personal trainer.
(00:24):
Firstly, we're going to cover how to create a positive gym culture as a gym member because that's most of you listening. Then I have some points at the end as to how to do that as a personal trainer, but first we'll dive into what to do as a member. Now some of these may seem pretty common sense driven, but this podcast needs to be recorded. I'm currently training at a 24 7 gym. I was at more of a private gym before this and the culture was a lot better. There was a different demographic, but we really need to have a solid gym culture for the better of not only the fitness industry but us as people trying to get results in the gym and trying to make the most of our time in the gym. If there's a terrible gym culture, if it's messy, if people are frustrated, if people are lazy, it just impacts people's experiences in the gym.
(01:19):
And this isn't too concerning for people that are advanced or people that are very committed to their fitness journey. This is more so to help welcome people in that may be a bit more emotionally fragile and vulnerable as they begin to commit to a fitness journey. With that in mind, the first point is to put your weights back. If you're strong enough to lift weights, you're strong enough to put them back. That's something that a lot of gyms say to kind of guilt trip you into doing it. Oh yeah, you don't think I'm strong? I'll, I'll show you. I'll put my weights back. And that's kind of funny, but it's just true. We need to put our weights back. It keeps the gym clean. A clean gym, if you're in a clean environment, you're going to act more in a clean manner. Let's look at it like if you are in a household and both your parents are alcoholics, you're probably more likely to drink alcohol.
(02:17):
And in the gym, if you're in a messy gym, you're going to be less likely to be clean. If you have a strong moral value that you hold yourself to and you're like, I'm a clean person, I have to act tidy, that's great for you. You are a rare person. Most people in the gym will just react to what the environment is around them. So the tidier we can make it, the more welcoming it's going to be and the more it's going to encourage people to do that behaviour that keeps it clean and that is putting your weights back. So the first point in putting your weights back is it just keeps the gym tidy and everyone kind of follows. We've all done it. We've all been to a messy gym. You finish with the weight plates and you'll just leave it there because that's what everyone else is doing.
(03:09):
It's normal. We just kind of react to the environment around us. I remember one time when I was there to train with a client, there was 140 kilos on the floor. Someone had just deadlifted 140 kg and just lifted on the floor. So I mate, what are you doing? Just put it back, 140 kilos. What if Susan 85 years old is coming into the gym and she knows how to deadlift, she wants to do a deadlift in that squat rack. She's not going to be able to take those or to deadlift 140 kilo, but it's also going to be way more difficult for her to take those weights off and make it a weight that she can do than it is for the person who's just deadlifted 140 kilos. And that's the second point that I want to bring up with putting your weights back.
(03:54):
It also, it encourages elderly population or people that may not be as strong as you encourages them to give it a go because there's not these big weights stuck on the machine that they may not even be able to get off. But also if they see a leg press that's got 200 kilos on it and they can only do just the machine pushing it back and forward, that's going to be a high barrier to entry for them. So they're probably just going to skip it and do something else. Or they might just say, man, I've been working up to the gym. This obviously isn't a place for me. I can't even lift these weights. I'm just going to go home. And that's what I always think when I'm in the gym to try and think of the person that has severe gym anxiety and that because I coach a lot of people that train at home because they are scared of people at the gym, what they might think of their form, what they might think of their body, what they might think of them just being in the gym.
(04:48):
So I really have that mindset of, okay, that person could walk into the gym and if they walked into the gym and saw me or saw the gym environment and saw the weights everywhere or saw the weights all put away perfectly, how would they feel? And this is probably more directed at gym owners, but as members we can encourage the gym culture to be very clean. And when it's clean, people feel welcome. What do you do when people are coming over to your house? You run around like a madman trying to clean your house to make sure that everything's cool, everything's clean, they feel welcome, they feel looked after. And it's the same thing with the gym. If a gym's well kept, then people are going to act in that way. But also visitors, people that are travelling around, people that are scared, people that are vulnerable, they feel more welcome.
(05:34):
There's another common thing that people say like tidy room, tidy life. Like clean your room. You have a clean life or if you're in the office like tidy desk, tidy work or tidy desk, tidy life, however you want to put it. You see what I'm getting at? The people that often leave the gym dirty and waits everywhere, what do their lives look like? Maybe it's messy too, maybe it's not so obvious, but there's definitely going to be messy parts in their life. And there's another quote that kind of goes with this, and it's one of my favourites. How you do anything, it's how you do everything. And if you hold yourself to that standard and have that quote in your head, then you are going to act in a way that's going to hold yourself to a certain stature in whatever you're doing. So if you just walk past a rubbish bin, you throw it and it misses and you just leave it.
(06:34):
What does that say about you? Give up when it gets hard. If something doesn't go your way, do you just run away? And this might be overanalyzing it, but this is how I look at things and this is how I judge character upon people because okay, they're nice to your face, this person that you've just met, they're really nice to you and then you see them and then you become friends and then they start bitching about mutual friends that you have and then you're like, oh, well if you are bitching about them, then what are you doing when you're with your friends? Are you talking about me? Most probably you're going to be bitching about me to them as well because how you do anything is how you do everything. And I want you to try and keep that as a standard in your life so that in the gym, if you're putting the weights back, if you've done your job and you've put the weights back, you hold yourself to a standard of being a clean person, doing kind of doing what you said you would do, doing what you should do or encouraging people, making people feel welcome, making people feel more confident in the gym.
(07:47):
So that's just an important quote that I would like to suggest to you that you would take into the gym, but you can also take it into other areas of your life. That's point number one. The second point would be to bring a towel and wipe down things, right? This is standard, so I'm not going to spend much time on this.
(08:06):
It just keeps everything clean. We sweat when we train, even if you're not sweating, it's just decent to wipe it down even if you did or didn't, just wipe it down after you've finished. Obviously people are a bit more cautious about this thing after the pandemic and they're reacting I guess in a positive way with hygiene within the gym, even wiping down barbells. I even still see not at this gym, but my previous gym that I was at maybe a couple of months ago, people were still training with masks on. People can do whatever they want. I'm not going to train with a mask on if I don't have to stuff that, but if you want to do that, that's cool, but the least we can do is train with a towel and wipe the machines down at the end. I do have a caveat to that.
(08:52):
I don't think a towel is essential to put on the bench or the machine every single time. For example, I'm not going to put a towel on a bench press when I'm going heavy or on a standard flat bench when I'm doing dumbbell chest press with 50 kg dumbbells because I don't like the risk of my back slipping on the towel while I'm doing that press. I don't think that's going to be an injury risk. So sometimes I don't put the towel on the machine or on the bench because I don't want to slip or anything, especially when you're dealing with heavy weights. But I'll wipe it down after that or I'll wear the towel where I feel like I'm just working for reps and the weight isn't too heavy, it's not going to be as much of an injury risk because sometimes towels can slip like when you're doing bench press, and if you do and you have a hundred kg bench press and you slip, that could be an injury.
(09:43):
That could be the bar sitting on your chest slipping. That could be the bar landing on your neck. It could be any type of injury. But in terms of cleanliness, the least we can do is carry around a towel and wipe the machines down after we use it. It's pretty simple. Point number three, I've had a tonne of problems with this is just mate, don't smell, wear deodorant, take your body odour elsewhere. The odd session here and there, I get it, you've had a long day at work, maybe you forgot to put deodorant on because kids were keeping you up and you woke up early kids again and then you're just leave the house, man, I forgot to put deodorant on and I have to train after work and I'm doing labour all day so I smell and then I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to smell.
(10:31):
If that's a one-off, I'll let you off the hook I have as a gym and personal trainers, but if you're consistently showing up smelling, there was a person and actually two guys that used to train at my previous gym, they always smelled, everyone kind of gave them dirty looks. It's just not a nice environment to be around. No one wants to be around someone that smells and it just seems like point number one, whether you're in the gym or not in the gym. I think smelling like body odour isn't a desirable smell. So just kind of sort that out, man, we're all adults here. Have a shower put on deodorant. If you are against certain chemicals on your skin, get a natural deodorant.
(11:12):
If you don't even do that for any reason, maybe just cover up more so it's not that obvious, but I think you just have to think of other people. Once again, coming back to that person, that avatar in your mind, the person that is scared of the gym, the person that is going for the first time and is already very nervous. A bad smell could be like, oh man, the gym was the worst experience ever. People smell there, it's messy. No one's wiping the benches down, all the machines dirty, they're probably not going to come back. So these points aren't really for you, it's for the fitness industry or positive gym culture in general, but wearing is just like, come on mate, just don't smell. I remember I had a client complain once, and this is pretty common in the gym if you have personal training clients and then there's, there's always a member that smells.
(12:08):
I've had to had a couple of conversations. Some gyms actually have deodorant, which is really cool. I'm a big fan of that. But I had to train my client around this member. We literally had to do the programme in a different format because they were like, this person smells too much. We were in a squat rack beside them. It was horrendous, so bad and they consistently smelt. They had been talked to by the manager, so I was like, I don't need to talk to them anyway, we just kind of moved around them. It's just not fun for me as a personal trainer. I'll take it, whatever, but obviously I don't like it. But my personal training clients, especially people that invest in personal training, some are quite nervous, quite self-conscious, lower, so I really want to look after them and make them feel safe. And often if someone smells and they're being around it, they're not really enjoying themselves.
(13:03):
They want to be in an environment where they are happy and the are pleasing. Moving on. That's common sense. Number four, filming random people is a massive no. There are videos on TikTok. There are videos on Instagram where people cut to, they'll do a scene like this and they'll look to the left like this and then it'll cut to a video of someone recording a man doing a crazy exercise and then he'll look this way and then it'll cut to another video and he'll be walking into a CrossFit gym. And then the second video is person doing tipping pull-ups like looking crazy.
(13:44):
I hate that. Filming random people. If I caught anyone filming my client and posting it online or just caught them filming them in general, I would happily just go up to that person and tell them to delete it and give them a chat, give them a better taste of their own medicine. It's just a no-go. That would be one of the biggest camels, biggest camels. The biggest straws on the camel's back for someone that struggles with gym anxiety is their fear of being filmed and being publicly humiliated. Even if it's not posted online, someone has a video of them doing something that they're already not comfortable with. It's kind of like someone taking photos of someone naked that's really body conscious and having them and are they going to post it, are they not? Just the fear of that is just crazy. If you are filming someone just because they're doing something crazy on to get likes online, I think that says a lot about you just don't do it, man.
(14:43):
People are trying. People are trying their best. That is one of the biggest fears that clients that I deal with that have, or I guess diagnose themselves as having gym anxiety and being scared of what people think themselves is being filmed because they already worry that their form is average or that the clothes that they're wearing is too tight and it's making them uncomfortable or they're already wondering what people are thinking of them and they're thinking that they're doing exercises completely wrong and they're thinking that everyone's just staring at them and looking at them and you are just validating that thought. If you are filming them, not necessary, don't film random people. As a personal trainer, I used to film my clients because some of them actually used to love seeing their training. So I would film them doing an exercise. Obviously they had built up in confidence from then they would squat a hundred kilos.
(15:39):
I'd film it, they would love it. I would just film them training, tag them online because they would feel a bit like, oh, my personal trainer is posting me online now. I must be doing well and I'll be like, you are doing well. And I want to share that with my other clients that follow me and my other followers that maybe considering to train with me or just considering training in general. And that story could help encourage people. So I would film my clients for many reasons. Sometimes they would ask just so they would have it. I'll send it to them later. I'd airdrop it to them, send it to them via WhatsApp just so they have it so they can show their kids so they can show their friends so they can just have it on their phone. But if people don't have consent to be filmed, I think this is a big no-no one of the biggest no-nos.
(16:28):
People are just trying to do their best. Especially if someone's struggling with confidence, just leave them alone, man. And this kind of brings me on to another point. Point number five, filming yourself, and this is a very hot, hotly debated topic and my stance is, look, I film myself in the gym. I don't rock up with a ring light and a tripod. I just kind of lean my phone up against my drink bottle or against the bench or something like that. Just something low key because I just want to see my personal bests. If I'm training with a partner, I'll get them to film me every now and then. Maybe it's content, maybe it's just because I want to see what my techniques like and maybe it's just to record a PB that I have so I can refer back to it. Maybe it's just a technique check so that I can look that when I went heavy, I didn't compromise for filming yourself is one of the best ways because if you squat and go, oh man, that was sick.
(17:25):
My technique felt off the hook, Armstrong, I'm the man, look at me. Go. And then you film yourself and you see you've got butt wink at the bottom. Your knees are caving in at the bottom, the bar placement's crooked. You're like, oh mate, that was a bit of a hot mess. Maybe I'm not as good as I think I am. The film never lies. The film is never going to lie. So filming yourself, I get it. It is a bit of a technique hack. If you film yourself, you know what you're doing. You know what you're doing wrong a lot, right? It doesn't lie. But if you are rocking around the gym with a ring light and a tripod and trying to film yourself and there's like 10 people in the background, I don't think that's a wise move unless you're in a gym that's like, alright, we're all influencers or whatever.
(18:16):
We're all out here posting content for the gramme. Hey guys, this is my leg workout, this is my chest workout, this is my glute workout, la la, la. If you are doing that sort of content and everyone's down with it, knock yourself out. Couldn't care less. But the reason that I personally don't is I don't like the feeling of having people in the background that are unconfident. Once again, that person coming into the gym, oh, here's a fitness influencer dude, personal trainer guy with muscles filming himself in itty bitty clothing with his nipples showing and he's flexing and all this kind of stuff. And then there's this person that's just built up the confidence to walk into the gym and then they've walked into the background of your shot. They're like, oh my gosh, I'm on camera. I don't know what to do. I'm just going to walk this way. I feel like my clothes are too tight. I feel very self-conscious. What am I going to do? I'm going to leave. I'm going to give up this fitness thing for me, people just filming me.
(19:12):
That's no good. Another thing is if you are filming yourself and people are walking through and while that, just get over yourself. If people are walking through your shot art, it's not a photo shoot. If you want to film yourself, hire out a gym, alright? Fork out some money. But if someone's just trying to put a dumbbell back and they walk across your screen and you're trying to film your hip thrusts, just get over it. Just get over it. It's a public gym. You don't pay more of a membership than they do. I don't know of any gym that has an influencer membership where you pay more to film. I think that'd be ridiculous, but just have mercy on people. If people walk through film, the next set, film a set before that if want, if people walk through an accident, don't get mad at them.
(20:00):
Just chill like, okay, I get it. It might be your livelihood. You might be trying to put bread on the table for your family by filming your workouts, posting it, people sign up to your programmes, whatever, but just have a bit of compassion for them and understand where they're coming from. They're just going in there to work out. They might have had a 12 hour day at work and they're just trying to smash their work out. And then you are there filming yourself with your nipple show and doing chess flies. Just see it from their perspective and understand what I, well, I've taken it into my own hands and actually decided to take on a commercial lease and actually build a gym. But I'm not telling you to do that. But when I was, so this is dedicated to the fitness influencers. When I was, I would literally ask around at gyms or maybe a friend or whatever to film or you can even reach out to hotels. Can I film at your gym? I'll tag you on my content, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. That's probably better because least people are affected. I know it's more of a deal and maybe you're like, but Brock, I just want to film myself at the gym. It's cheaper, it's faster. I do it every day anyway.
(21:03):
Just consider other people. That's all I'm going to ask. Use your common sense, which as you get older, you discover is not as common as you think, but just try and be smart about people. Mate, the world does not revolve around you. That is one thing I've definitely been growing in knowledge of. Okay, point number six, work in with people super sets, okay? Be reasonable. If someone wants to work in leg extension with you, just let them work in. You do your set, you put your towel on, maybe you wipe down between before they jump on sometimes. Look, I'm going to admit if they go, oh, don't worry about wiping it down. I'm like, sweet. You don't need to worry either, because I'm like, oh mate, I'm going to wash these clothes anyway. I'm going to have a shower after this. And I know I did talk about wiping the stuff down, but if you're working in with someone and you're kind of cool with them, whatever, if you're not cool, if you're like, I'm just going to wipe down after you finishes that call, just be reasonable. This is what kind of freaks people out and does kind of piss people off in the gyms working in with super sets most of the time it's okay with machines and stuff. Leg extension, leg curl, leg prayers, hack squat. It's kind of cool unless it's like there's a 14-year-old guy who's doing a bench press and it's like 40 kilos and let's say I rock up there and I'm doing 120 for five reps and he's like, can I work in?
(22:34):
I might say no, to be honest, because maybe I don't feel like taking a hundred kilos off the bar every single time he's going to do bench press and then putting it back on, then doing my set and then taking them all off and then him benching 40. I feel like that is reasonable because I'm doing such a heavier weight than him. I'm just going to waste time in between sets, taking ages. I think with squat racks, if someone's deadlifting a lot, maybe don't work in with them. If someone's squatting a lot, they're way stronger than you maybe don't work in with them, but most of the time pin loaded machines, I think you can. You're just moving your pin from 27 kgs to 64 kilos. Okay, now you go, all right, take it out. Bang, bang. Alright, you go with free weights. I think there can be a bit of conversation around it, like sharing barbells and things like that. If the weights are reasonably close, I feel like you can have a bit more of a look, man, I'm just doing my training, so just let's not work in today.
(23:39):
Or if you're doing short rest periods and they need to be every 30 seconds or every 60 seconds someone working in is probably going to take longer than that. So that's going to throw your workout off. If you have a legit reason, I feel like it's a perfect excuse not to make it up, but if you're like, Hey, look man, my rest periods are only 60 seconds. If you're going in there, it's just going to be a longer, can you come back in five minutes and maybe do another exercise? I feel like that's a completely legit conversation that you can have with someone and then you can move forward. If you are super sitting as well, this is what I found worked really well if people wanted to work in and so let's just say I'm doing leg extension to leg press. If someone wanted to use the leg extension machine in my rest, I'd be like, yeah, man, a hundred percent I'm going to do leg press.
(24:32):
While I'm doing leg press. You can do your set. Then I'm going to come back and do leg extension and then that's my turn. That is a perfect example. So super setting in the gym is very common. It's a very time efficient way to train. So I feel like when you are super sitting, and that's a great opportunity to put people in while you're resting so you can be productive while someone's working in with you. And I feel like this conversation kind of needs to be had because there's a lot of, I've seen people that are super sour. I've trained people and we're doing super sets and I'm like, Hey man, can I jump in the leg press with you? And they're like, nah. And I'm like, oh, why not? And he's just like, oh, I'm just doing my sets. Just leave me alone. So I left that guy alone, but I didn't like it.
(25:16):
I don't think that it's the best attitude to have. If you don't want to work in with someone, at least have a legit excuse. If you just want to be a dick and be like, no, I'm doing the leg press. Look, you can be your own person, but I just think that you're not doing much for the gym culture. I think that the gym culture should be a great place for everyone to experience working out experience. We're all there for the same reason. We all want to build muscle. We all most probably want to drop body fat or just get stronger. We don't even have to drop body fat. We all want to build muscle and get stronger. We can agree on that.
(25:53):
Can we not just have a positive environment? Can we not just be like, yeah mate, jump in. Cool. No drama far out. Am I an outlier here? I know your workouts can be serious and I know that this might be the only 45 minutes, 60 minutes that you have to train. Then give that reason. Don't just say no, piss off like, Hey mate, I'm sorry, I only have 60 seconds rest. I'm doing this leg press. I've got 45 minutes to train. I'm just trying to bang it out. Can you please use another leg press or can you just wait a couple of minutes while I finish? I would happily wait because I have a legit reason. It's just communication, just like a good relationship between husband and wife. Works with good relationship communication, open lines of communication. The same works with gym culture. Just chat it out, man.
(26:44):
Chat it out. Super set work in. Okay, that's point number six. Point number seven. Okay, looks are allowed. Staring, question mark, touching, definitely not allowed. Okay, looking at other people, there are videos that just make me so mad. And there was a viral one where a lady was filming herself working out. A guy looked at her kind of like whatever, and then she was like, why are you looking at me? And he was like, I wasn't looking at you. And then I think she was just like, this is abuse or whatever. Why are you staring at me trying to head on me all this kind of, he just literally looked at her and that went viral and she was like, he was harassing me, he was staring at me. He was this and that. I'm on that guy's side. I don't think he was. I also understand that people don't want to be stared at.
(27:45):
So yesterday there was a guy staring at me, not in a sort of way just staring at me. I was deadlifting a pretty heavy amount. So if you want to look at that, that's cool, but it was staring. It was uncomfortable. I was cool because I didn't care if anyone looks at me, they can do what they want. But if I had low confidence and I was nervous about my technical and stuff, I would not want this guy staring at me. It was like an Indian dude with a beanie really low and he was kind of out there. He was singing out loud in his headphones, which was a bit cool, man, enjoy yourself, but just kind chill out, bro. He was singing pretty loud. Everyone was looking at him and he was just in his own zone. I didn't really mind. Other people were kind of having a bit of beef with that. What's this guy doing? Just listen to your music and shut up and train. But then he was just staring at me in his wrist periods like this and I looked at him and he didn't even break eye contact. He was just still staring. And it was the kind of stare where it looked like, who do you think you are?
(28:53):
What a douche type of thing. That's the kind of thoughts that I was thinking, but whatever, I'm just there to train and do whatever I need to do. I didn't care. But staring makes people feel uncomfortable. And if you're a dude staring at a girl, it can make them feel uncomfortable. I get that that was what the basis of her TikTok perspective was. But then I can see the guy's perspective where he's like, I wasn't staring at you, I was just looking. I don't know. You have to look at people. Sometimes it's even more awkward if you're just looking down at the floor. Oh, I'm just looking at the floor. No one else is in the gym but me. If people are walking around, you can look at them, but staring at a chick's glutes, come on man, just chill. Staring at a guy's glutes, just chill, staring at a guy's bulge.
(29:42):
Maybe just chill on that. Staring at a girl's breasts, chill out on that. Just staring at their eyes when they're looking at you is a bit weird. Just watch out a bit. Just try and use common sense. As I said, it's less common than you think, but just don't stare at people. Definitely don't touch people. Damn. Definitely don't touch people. That is like, don't touch me in the gym. If you're my mate, whatever, if you're spotting me, cool, whatever. But don't touch people in the gym. I feel like I don't need to say that, but don't go touching people in the gym.
(30:21):
So there's some times where I have touched other people in the gym in terms of tapping them on the shoulder because their music's on and being like, Hey mate, your thing fell on the floor. Or excuse me, you've got a five kilo plate on one side of the barbell and you don't have one on the other side. I feel like that validates a touch because I'm literally stopping them from injuring themself or losing something. I feel like that's legit. Okay. But if you're just trying to sneakily touch someone, just don't do that. If you want to go up and talk to people at the gym, go up and talk to them and just talk to 'em. Don't try and sneakily touch them or anything like that. Don't be a weirdo chatting to people in the gym, chatting to people in the gym. Should you go and approach a chick if you think she's pretty and you want to date her?
(31:11):
I think so. I think so. If you want to go chat to a dude and say, Hey, bring up some small talk. If people don't want to talk to you and you can see their body language is a bit off, like, Hey, can you kind of leave me alone? Just pick up on that. I feel like if you listen to this podcast, you kind of get that, but there's some people that just can't read cues, so don't harass people. If you think someone's hot or you think someone's attractive and you go up and talk to them and they're keeping their headphones in and kind of like, yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah. And they're not asking questions back If you are like, how long have you been training here? They're like, oh, a couple of months. And then it goes quiet. I think that's a pretty clear sign that they're not interested.
(31:56):
They'll talk back if they are, but I also think that the gym is a place where like-minded people are, if you are training, training is usually a pretty good indicator that someone's like they are seeking a better version of themselves. They're trying to improve their health, they're trying to, I don't know, they enjoy working out. You already share a few common interests. Why not date someone that'ss from your gym? One of my good friends from New Zealand and Julie, she met her husband in the gym. I think he approached her. Awesome man. They're married, they've got a house, they're loving life. There's some great stories and I think that we can't get scared from approaching people at the gym. I met my wife at the gym. It wasn't necessarily me going up and talking to her. I worked in the gym so I didn't want, the gym was a professional place for me, so I didn't want to be seen on the gym floor trying to flirt with girls. That's not professional in my work environment, I didn't want to do that. But she trained with my friend who was a personal trainer. There actually still is, and she was training there. So when I wasn't working, I remember she went to Bali and I had just recently been to Bali as well. So we started talking about that.
(33:27):
It wasn't like I was training, she was training. I went and approached her, but I just think the gym should like mate. It's like if you're in a library and you love books and you love reading and there's also a chick that you dig at the library, she probably digs reading. You have a common interest and having common interests is a pretty good thing to have. If you're dating someone, if you're completely different people, I don't think I could. I'm married, so obviously this is off. This is hypothetical, but I don't think I could be with someone that doesn't train. Not because I need someone that's super jacked and someone that lifts and someone that squats X amount and hip thrust this amount on, did lifts this amount just because I think that it shows something about that person that I would be attracted to.
(34:18):
They have the same values that I hold. That's it. That doesn't mean I'm fat phobic. That doesn't mean anything. It just means that we have common interests and that I would like that. So looking is fine, right? Staring is not fine. Touching is definitely not fine. Point number eight, okay, squat racks, heavy plates go down the bottom. Lightest plates go at the top in between. You can figure it out. It's not that hard. Okay, 2020 kilo plates or 45 pounds and 25 kilo plates. I dunno how much that is in pounds. Maybe it's 55 pounds. I dunno. Anyway, I'm going to talk in kilos because I don't live in America. I live in Australia and I was born in New Zealand and we dealt with the metrics system as well. 20 kilo plates, 25 kilo plates. They belong at the bottom 15 kilos, up 10 kilos and then fives and then two point fives and 1.2 fives.
(35:15):
They go at the top. Okay? And there's a reason for that. Number one, it's safe. If anything were to fall over or anything, then it wouldn't land on people's heads. Like when you're reaching up for a 1.25 for that hit you on a head as opposed to a 25 kilo play. Very different outcomes. But also with the heavier plates down at the bottom, it actually makes the squat rack more stable because the weight is at the bottom. The centre of gravity is lower, it's less likely to tip. That's just another simple physics equation. I think it's physics. So just put the heavier weight planes down the bottom if you're putting them at eye level height because it's easier. Don't be lazy, you're at the gym. Any excuse to get extra physical activity is generally a good idea. So if you're heavy enough to put those plates on a barbell and deadlift, 140 kilos, squat a hundred, bench press a hundred, whatever.
(36:03):
If you're strong enough to lift a plate and put it on a barbell, you are strong enough to put it back in that same place that you got it from. Chaus. Alright, point number nine, a very simple one. Smile. Smile at people. It makes them feel welcome, right? Okay. I don't know if this is just a kiwi thing, but I'm just going to say it. We say hi to people especially, I grew up, okay, my dad is probably the most talkative person you'll ever meet. He loves talking to people. So I grew up in an environment where my dad would be walking around a market and it didn't even have to be in Christchurch. It could be a market in Auckland, it could be a market in Sydney, Australia where we used to come on holiday and he would just talk to anyone, like anyone.
(36:45):
He would talk to anyone. He would smile at anyone if he saw. So my dad's Maori, right? I'm half Maori, my dad's Maori. If he saw a Maori person in Australia, he would just go without any hesitation, just go up and talk to someone and go, Kyo bro, where are you from? Type of thing. Or he might even start talking Maori to them and just kind of gamble it. And I love that about my dad and I think I've also adopted that where I would just say, Hey, when I'm walking around with my wife and my daughter, we do walks together every now and then, mostly on the weekends, but when we walk together, I like to say hi to people just literally as a bit of a game. First of all, it's nice to say hi to people. Hey, hey, going, yeah, good mate.
(37:26):
Yeah, cool. Alright, I'm I'm not there to have a five minute conversation. I'm just there to say hi. If you're walking someone, is it weird to acknowledge that there's another human being on the planet in front of you? I don't think that's weird. We become so on our phones with our AirPods on and our headphones on that I don't need to talk to people. I think that if I'm going to walk past you on the street, depending on what I'm doing, but I'm probably going to say hi or I might just look up and give you the eyebrows or I'm not going to shake your hand. I'm not going to shake a random person's hand, but I might just say hi. And I think that we can do the same thing in the gym. Once again, these points, these nine points that have a positive gym culture are pretty gym specific, but they also carry over to the real world, right?
(38:11):
Smile at people, say hi to people. Happiness is contagious. And if we create this environment in the gym as members, these nine points as gym members, I think that we're going to be better off. I think that we're going to get more people in the gym. It's going to be less of a, some people think it's a toxic environment. I think that's garbage. I don't think that we should have that, but just smile. And then this goes without saying, don't frown at people. Don't yell at people, smile at people. Ask them how they're going. Dish the odd compliment here and there obviously, okay, this ties back into the, okay, if you're trying to flirt with someone, it's a different story. I just mean a legit compliment. I remember when I first signed up to my gym, I met this guy called John and he said something about like, bro, that's a decent pump cover and that's like Jim bro talk.
(39:03):
But a pump cover is a long sleeve shirt or a hoodie or a sweater that you wear to hide your pump. And then you take it off and you look jacked and you got a single underneath or a T-shirt underneath. So that pump cover is like you wear it, you get a pump up and you start training, then you take it off when you're hot and sweaty, then you're like, I'm ready to go. And he was just like, bro, this is a sick pump cover. It's like a compliment. I was like, I was like, thanks bro. And then we started talking and then I met him. He's a photographer, he's a videographer, he works for a shoe company, la, la la. We got chatting, but that was like, he didn't have to say that, but he just smiled and said something. I heard him talked back, we went back and forward.
(39:46):
He's a cool dude. Whatever. Now if I see him at the gym, I'm going to say hi, right? That's a nice exchange. And the more that you can have those with people at the gym, I think the better the gym culture's going to be. Alright, now we're going to go into four points as, so this is specifically for personal trainers, but I think this is going to be a great point for, or people that just see personal trainers, right? Personal trainers are in gyms. We know that you can't get around it. So whether you are a personal trainer or a member, I think this is still going to be value information for you to take into about how to create a positive gym culture. But I may get furious at times because personal trainers really rock me up the wrong way. The way that they behave in gyms infuriates me and I'm speaking as a personal trainer.
(40:34):
I'm not saying I'm a perfect personal trainer in the gym, alright? I've had my fair share of screw ups for sure, but I've just got four points and these are common sense and I can't believe that as a professional job, there is such a wide variety of skill and talent and professionalism within personal trainers. When you pay for a personal trainer, when I finished in the personal training face-to-Face world, I had a pretty high session rate. It was quite expensive to train with me and I acknowledged that. And when people, it's because I was busy, it's because I was great at my job, am great at my job, whatever you want to say, but when I said my rates, some people would lose their mind and be like, but this personal trainer is like a quarter of your rate, a quarter, a quarter of your rate.
(41:35):
I was four times another rate of what another personal trainer was charging and I was like, look, I don't know what to say. You get quality when you come with me, but it's because what that personal trainer provides is so low. There's no training programme. They're going to be late, they're not presentable, they don't really look after you results wise. Are they looking after your food? Are they checking your progress picks? Are they checking your weight? Are they available via email? Are they available via call and certain hours? There's this big list of things that I provided as a personal trainer and then there was what other personal trainers provided. So this is more so to lift the game of personal training as something I'm super passionate about. And every time I go to a gym, especially in different countries, I find it really interesting.
(42:25):
But every time I go to a gym, I'm watching the personal trainers. Whether you catch me looking or not, I'm not staring, but I'm just like, I'm watching, I'm watching. Anyway, here's my points. Number one, get off your phone. Please get off your phone, man, you are working. I get so frustrated. Even if a barista that I'm about to talk to and order a coffee from is on their phone, I'm like, mate, you are working. And I think this is one of the massive problems with people coming up and working with cell phones. Obviously we are all on our phones, but if you are working, just work. Get a work ethic man. Get off your phone if you're a personal trainer and your program's on your phone, I get it.
(43:14):
I have done that before. A more professional look is an iPad. I also had an iPad, but one night I had a client drop weight on it, so my screen cracked. So I had to use my phone for a while while I got a new iPad. Sometimes I forgot my iPad or it ran out of battery, so I would use my phone for the programme. But if you are filling out a programme, you are not on it 24 7 while your client's doing reps, you are not on your phone replying back to your girlfriend, replying back to a chick that you're talking to on Tinder, replying back to your best mate, saying, Lowell, man, how was your weekend? Like, bro, you're working. Personal training is a profession, right? You don't want your dentist texting while they're fixing your teeth. You don't want your heart surgeon texting in between.
(43:59):
You want them dialled in and focused. The same should be with personal training. Get off your phone. I remember I would see like, man, if you were a personal trainer in the gym, then I was like, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But there used to be a guy who would literally have his phone on charge and just stay in the vicinity of his phone that was on charge so that he could be by his phone. His clients were squatting, he was on his phone, his clients were deadlifting, he was on his phone, his clients were talking to him and he was on his phone. It infuriated me, but karma will get you. He was cycling through clients like no one. He was always walking the floor. He was always trying to find different clients because he couldn't retain them. I wonder why. Maybe they don't want to be personal trained. While you are texting, you're getting paid to personal train people, not to text your friends or do business meetings or text this and that. Get off your phone. I could talk about this for hours, but just get off your phone mate. All right, point number two, look presentable and I, I'm not here to debate. Should personal trainers wear makeup or not wear makeup? Should they do their hair or not do their hair? I don't care.
(45:16):
Personally, I would always do my hair. I think it's important to look presentable. If you want to attract a certain client, I think it is helpful to look presentable. If you're the same skill level as someone and you're a personal trainer and you're exactly the same, but one looks more presentable than the other, they're going to go with the more presentable person. So okay, maybe you have to do your hair. Maybe for females, sometimes males wear makeup. Maybe that means putting makeup on for whoever you are. Maybe that means washing your clothes, smelling good. Dave and I, another personal trainer, we would wear perfume always like nice perfumes because we wanted to smell good out on the gym floor. I remember I would buy watches because I wanted to train certain people. I bought certain shoes because I wanted to train certain people that, and this isn't arrogant, but that were on a certain level, I don't know how to say that without sounding like a douche, but people that I guess appreciated nice things were the people that I clicked with.
(46:36):
I felt like I was an older soul. I was always told that by my clients. So I felt like I really clicked with these sort of people and I had that sort of mindset. So I really invested in my presentation, what shoes I was wearing, what watch I was wearing, my physique as well. That kind of, I guess adds into, I guess look and presentable. That doesn't mean add a personal trainer. You need a six pack, you need huge arms. Having a knowledge base and a footprint of client results that are outstanding is way more important than how you look as a personal trainer and how you present yourself. But I do think that looking presentable does help if you are struggling to get clients. Okay, number three, don't take cash on the gym floor. Alright? It kind of looks like a drug deal. I'm going to be honest.
(47:25):
Don't take cash. And number one, we shouldn't really be taking as personal trainers anyway. You should be running direct debits. But anyway, don't take cash on the gym floor. It looks dodgy. It makes you look dodgy. As a personal trainer, I think we have bank accounts these days, right? I know you're trying to avoid the tax man, but just don't take cash on the gym floor. Some trainers would walk into the bathroom and take cash there. Look, do what you want to do, man, seriously, it doesn't impact me. But when I was first becoming a personal trainer, the guy that I was learning from was like, don't take cash on the gym floor. It's just a standard that I've maintained personally and I didn't do it. I think I may have done it once or twice because of this happened and that happened. I took cash.
(48:18):
I really, look, I don't want to lie here. I think I may have done it once or twice on the gym floor out of needs of the client. Like, oh, I got a different card or this bounced and I have to pay this way. Or they would just give it to me and say like, Hey, look, I can't because of this and that. Look okay, so I'm not being a hypocrite here. I did do it once or twice, but if it's a regular thing, you need to look at yourself as a business. You're not a drug dealer on the street trying to get a hundred bucks here, 50 there, dah, dah, dah dah, like run a direct debit. It's much more efficient or at minimal bank transfers, but still that doesn't really give you any sort of authority to get the payment for your services.
(48:59):
Okay? So that's number three. Number four, and this should not have to be said, but don't eat on the gym floor. I've seen it too much. I literally saw a guy with a Tupperware container and fork walking around the classic chicken and veggies and rice while his client's talking to him. He's sitting there stuff in his face, and look, if you are too busy to eat, schedule some time to eat, mate. Maybe you need to charge more money or maybe you just need to run your time better, but don't eat while you're training a client. He would eat and put the Tupperware container on the leg press, and then they're pushing up the weight plus his Tupperware container full of food in the leg press. I'm not making this up. It literally sounds like a movie, but this guy, I was like, mate, you're eating in front of everyone.
(49:48):
You just look stupid. That's not what you do, mate. If you go and meet your accountant and they're just stuffing their face with chicken and rice and vegetables in front of your face, it'd be a bit like, Hey, what are you doing? We're in a meeting. This is a business transaction here. You're providing me a service here and you're treating it like a lunch break. Don't eat on the gym floor. Don't eat in front of people. I remember one of my biggest days that I did back to back was 11 hours straight. I remember I did 6:00 AM till 7:00 PM no breaks and I didn't eat. That was in Auckland. I was a fresh personal trainer. I think it was in 2015, maybe beginning of 2016. But yeah, I just did 11 hours straight because that's my fault. I scheduled a hectic day 6:00 AM till 7:00 PM back to back clients nonstop.
(50:46):
I didn't eat, that's my fault. When I finished, I ate a cow. I was like, man, I'm so starving. I just ate whatever I could. I was so busy. Obviously when you are personal training, you are walking around, you are lifting weights for your clients, you're moving weights around. I wasn't a huge deficit, so when it came around to 7:00 PM I just ate whatever I want wanted. But don't eat in front of your clients. They're not a lunch break. That is what you do as a job. Alright, that's point number four. That's a wrap guys. If you think I missed anything for Jim etiquette, please put it in the comments. I'd love to hear what you think. Massive, no-nos in the gym or massive things that we should encourage to encourage a positive gym culture. Please put them in the comments. I just want to end on a little quote and then it's going to cut because I just think this is, when I first heard this, I was like, this is so true. So many people are trying to do this thing, but I think that we should be striving for another thing, and that is this. Don't just make a living, make a life.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
I've been training for 15 years now, and within that time I've made a tonne of mistakes, a tonne of errors, and in this podcast I've broken down the seven most important errors that I've made, why they're errors and how to fix them. So let's jump into it.
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To give you a bit of context of how my journey started with lifting weights and working out in general, I came from a sporting background. I played a tonne of sports, and during that time as I got older, I could see that strength and size difference was playing a massive part. I grew up a skinny small kid, and a lot of people don't believe that when I tell them. And that's not to try and say, oh, I'm so big and I'm not small. It's just because I've lifted weights for such a long time now that I've developed some muscle mass. But when I was younger, my mom used to call me Skinny Binny. My dad used to call me monkey, like I was just a small skinny kid that used to play a lot of sport, run around, climb trees, do that sort of thing.
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But as I got into rugby, that's when the strength and size difference really started to be highlighted. I used to play rugby in, well, I started at a young age, five years old, but I remember when I was 12 years old and I was playing, sorry, I was 11 years old and I was playing at intermediate school. So if you don't know what intermediate school is because you're not from New Zealand, intermediate school is, I think it's called middle school in the States, but it's when you are 11 and 12, it's just two years. So in New Zealand it's when you're year seven and year eight and you are 11 and 12 and it's like a school between primary school and high school. So I used to have a lot of friends that were just massive. They had facial hair and we were 11 and 12 years old and I couldn't believe they were actually my age.
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And I didn't have armpit hair, I didn't have pubic hair, I couldn't get a hair on my face. I could hardly comprehend the fact of that happening. And my friends had to shave. They've on had men attributes, and I remember playing rugby with them and I was a decent tackler, but these guys were just, I was trying to wrap my arms around their legs and I was struggling to tackle them. So as I went through intermediate school and I got to high school, Christchurch Boys high school, we had a gym that was accessible to anyone who paid for a gym membership, but also if you played rugby, they encouraged you to lift weights. And that's where I started lifting. I started at 14 years old. I'm 29 years old now, so I've technically been lifting for 15 years. I started with no guidance apart from some general rugby programmes that our coaches would give us, and my friends that lifted weights would just tell me things.
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And if they had good physiques, I'll just listen to what they say. And if they were strong and bigger and older than me, then that's what I was doing in the gym. I was just looking at them and just copying them. So on that journey of having literally no experience with weights and just this desire to work out, get bigger, get stronger, get faster, I made a lot of errors. I made a lot of errors. I didn't know that I was going to be a personal trainer when I started lifting, that wasn't the goal. It was just to get stronger and bigger to play better sport. But obviously that got carried away and I fell in love with the weight training over the sport, and that resulted in me becoming an online personal trainer. Now I coach people all around the world and yeah, the errors that I make, I'm coaching them through it, and that's what I want to outline in this podcast.
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The first error that I made was just having no programme, not tracking exercises, not tracking weight lifted. I was tracking nothing. And there's a great quote that sums up why we need to track these things. What is measured can be progressed. If you don't track how much money you're making versus how much you're spending, you're going to have a very average idea of your financial situation. If you don't track how many calories you're consuming versus how many calories you're burning, it's going to be very hard to have an idea of if you're going to lose weight, gain weight, or maintain weight.
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There's so many things that we can apply that to. And the fact is, at minimum, we have to track the amount of exercises that we're doing, what exercises we're doing in what sort of rotation, and then it's like we have to track the weight lifted to make sure that we're implementing a principle called progressive overload. And I had no programme just simply because I just wanted to lift weights. I was just new to it, man. I was trying to figure out a technique. I was trying to figure out how much I should train in. I was just getting told by my friend Rob, who had a bench press in his garage and he had a massive chest, and I was like, me, what did you do to get that massive chest? And he was just like, I've got a bench press in my garage. So I just do heaps of that.
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So I did heaps of bench press and that didn't actually get my chest. I didn't have the correct technique, and I actually developed pretty poor posture. My shoulders were rounded over, I wasn't feeling it in my chest, I was feeling it in my shoulders, and that was because my scapula wasn't retracted and depressed. But that's a bit of a side note. But yeah, I just got into it because I was just keen and eager, and that's what a lot of people do when you're a beginner. You just think, okay, I'm lifting weights. That's better than not lifting weights. So I've already taken a big step, and that's true. You have made significant progress by simply just doing that. But we don't just want to get results. We want to get world-class results. We don't just want to train. We want to optimise our training. If you're serious about transforming your body and transforming your life and creating a programme or getting a workout programme given to you by someone that's more intelligent than you in this area is going to be a significant way to actually make as much progress as you can in the phase that's called the newbie phase or the beginner phase.
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And that would be the first six to 12 months of your lifting career. You have this golden opportunity that you don't get access to ever again, and that's lifting weights for the first time. And that's why you can make progress by doing training that's all over the place, not following a programme, not tracking how much you're working out, not tracking what exercises you're doing or weight lifted because your body hasn't seen a stimulus like this before. So when you start training, it's such a difference to zero training and your muscles go, wow, what the hell is this? You get really sore, but you also get stronger. You can increase your weight so much faster. You can build muscle so much faster. You are in this rare place where you can build muscle and lose fat at the same time because even though you're in a calorie deficit, which is pretty much impossible to build muscle as you become an intermediate and advanced lifter, as a beginner because you're in this calorie deficit and you can still drop body fat, well, you have to drop body fat if you're in a calorie deficit.
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But when you are mixing that with weightlifting for the very first time in your life, you have this golden opportunity to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, which is pretty much everyone in the world's goal carry less fat but build more muscle, carry less fat, build more muscle. And when you get more advanced, you have to go from a bulk phase to a cut phase, bulk phase cut phase, and you have to keep optimising processes and repeating, rinsing and repeating. But when you are just beginning, you can just bang it out two birds with one stone, and that's just lifting weight and eating in a calorie deficit. So I know if you are a beginner, it can be super overwhelming to hire a professional. Number one, it's an expense, but number two, it's very uncomfortable because you're trying to find your feet.
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But if you do invest into a coach or getting a programme, a decent programme too, then you can really, I would say exponentially increase your results. Because if you get into great habits as a beginner, you don't have to undo bad habits. That is what I had to do when I first started training. I lifted too heavy too early. I just did exercises that I liked or that I was good at. I had a tonne of weak points. I had a saw lower back quite a lot of the time because I was lifting with terrible technique, squatting felt awkward. I had to try and keep my knees from going over my toes because I thought that was a bad thing. I now know different, but squatting felt terrible because of that. I was trying to keep my knees behind my toes, and that throws your sense of gravity off. It makes you want to fall backwards.
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And I've dived into the research on this too because I made a whole video on it. But when you take the pressure off your knees by putting, by not putting your knees over your toes, that extra tension goes into your hip. And when there's more tension in your hip, you have more potential of having lower back pain if you're not squatting correctly. And I definitely wasn't. If you are going to go knees behind toes, then you're better off doing a low bar back squat because the weight is better positioned for you to have a better centre of gravity to squat.
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But anyway, everything, not everything, but most exercises hurt when I went heavy. That's why I didn't really go heavy because it hurt it. So what I'm trying to say is just try and get a programme, man, get a programme. Look, there's a tonne online. Obviously I have mine@teambroadcast.com if you want to use my programmes. They're all sound. They're programmes that I have done. They're programmes that I've studied for and invested my time, soul and energy into. There's other programmes online too, whatever your friend might be a personal trainer, ask them for a programme, hopefully they're legit. But tracking a programme, tracking what exercises you're doing, tracking the weight that you're lifting, these are super key pillars to ensure that you're making progress. And if you compared an advanced lifter programme to a beginner programme, they're very different. And with a beginner programme, you don't have to do many exercises.
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You actually don't have to train that often too. You can get away with trainings three to four times a week, whereas you're advanced. You may have to dial that up just to get more training volume in and allow your body to get warm for the amounts that you're going to lift. Because as an advanced person, you should be lifting a lot more than you were as a beginner. But getting a programme will fast track you 1000%. And just a bit of key points with training programmes is a rough guide is following a programme for four to six weeks. As a beginner, you can get away with doing it for longer because you're so used to this, not used to this training stimulus that you can do the same things over and over and over again because you have so much ground to make up. As an advanced person, you've pretty much seen every programme under the sun, every exercise under the sun, every rep range and tempo under the sun that you have to change slightly more frequently.
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I would change every three to four weeks as an advanced person, unless you're still progressing with certain exercises, then you can keep those exercises in and bring in some other ones. But yeah, it's a really ideal situation. So try to train the programme for four to six weeks. Keep the same weekly programme as a beginner. You can literally have two full body days. This is a cheat code for beginners. You can have full body day A and full body day B, and you don't have to work on a seven day training cycle. You can work on an eight day training cycle. It's just going to change the days that you train throughout the week. So you could do Monday full body a Tuesday, rest Wednesday, full body B, Thursday rest, and then Friday you go back to full body A and then you take a rest Saturday and then Sunday, full body B rest Monday, Tuesday, full body A and you just keep alternating workouts because you are so fresh. You can continue to do the same exercises for a while. You could do that for four to six weeks and still make incredible progress, build significant muscle, drop body fat if you are consuming the right amounts of calories and you're off. That's just a quick little programme. And with that full body programme, man, I could spend all day breaking that down and what that could look like. But ultimately as a beginner, full body workouts are a great place to start. The second biggest training era that I made was having no rest days.
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I was at this point in my life where I thought rest days were for soft people and I was like, if you rest, you're weak. I'm just going to keep charging on. I'm just going to keep training. I'm going to outwork you. And I still have that mindset, but I guess I've balanced it with experience and I've had a lot of experience where I've had injury. I've had times where my joints were aching because I was doing too much. There's times where my lower back was always sore. My central nervous system was down. I remember I had these, and this could have been anything, but I remember having these, I don't know how I explained them, like welts or sores under my armpits and around my mouth and stuff like that. It sounds like herpes, but it wasn't. But I had this stuff and I think it's just because I was literally overworking my central nerve system and I wasn't recovering, but I had no rest days.
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So I went through this period where I would train twice a day every day, and I was a personal trainer, so getting to the gym wasn't hard because I worked in a gym. If a client cancelled, bang, I was training. If I had a one hour slot where there was no clients there, bam. I was training. Was it a lunch break? Okay, I'm going to smash my food down really fast, 15 minutes and train for the rest. I don't know the other hour that I had left, any gap that I had in my schedule, I'll just replace it with training. So the ability to train 12 to 14 times per week was there. That led to a catastrophic lower back injury where I ended up having an ambulance to my house. I've told it before on this podcast, but I pretty much had an ambulance in my house.
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I couldn't stand up. I tried to stand up. I blacked out. That was when I called the ambulance. And then I had to rehab pretty much from that and I couldn't do any bilateral exercises, so I couldn't do any exercises with two arms or two legs working because it caused too much pain. So everything was single arm and single leg. I did split squats. I did single leg leg press. I did single arm dumbbell chest press, single arm lateral raise, everything. Well single arm because it took the tension off my lower back. I got dry needling from the physio. I got stretches. I was doing rehab, I was doing everything. It took me three to six months to climb out of that because I slipped a disc or no, maybe I didn't slip a disc. It's been a while since this happened. I think I had a lower back spasm.
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But anyway, it was uncontrollably painful and when I blacked out, I literally had a thought. I don't know if anyone's ever blacked out from an injury or from a lower back. So okay, let me paint this picture. I have told it on the podcast before, but let me just quickly run you through it just so you get an idea of how painful it was. I did my lower back that night and I couldn't walk. So I literally crawled into my Uber, took the smallest penguin steps up to my apartment, which was the first level. So I had to do stairs as well. That was super painful. I fell asleep. I was conked out. It was like 10, 10:00 PM I woke up. I couldn't stand up. So I crawled out of bed, crawled to the toilet. It hurt to try and stand up, but I did.
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It took me 15 minutes to get about five metres away from my bed. I lived in a studio apartment. It was very small, crawled, crawled, crawled, sat on the toilet to take a piss. Usually I would stand up because I'm a dude. That's usually what we do. And then I had to crawl back to bed. I cancelled my clients because I woke up and I was like, I can't stand up. I thought it would pass overnight. And then I really didn't know what to do. I tried to eat, so I crawled down from my bed. I made food. The microwave was actually just above the ground in a cabinet, so I could do that. I was lying. And then I was just lying on the ground, eating on my front. I was lying eating and I was eating and eating, and then I finished and I had to put it in the sink.
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I couldn't reach the sink. So I tried to stand up as I was trying to stand up, it was so painful. This kind of sharp pain came through me. I put the Tupperware container in the sink and then I blacked out and I woke up on the floor, which was like crazy because I could have hit my head, I could have, I don't know. And I was living on my own. So it was just crazy. It was so sore. I woke up and I was scared. And then that's when my brother, I called in the Gold Coast, told me to call an ambulance. So anyway, I did, and this pretty much came down from no resting. I was squatting. I was only squatting 120 kg, which isn't significant for me. It's up there, but it's not up there, up there. And I was just trying to tick the box from my programme.
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I was so fixated on smashing my programme that was twice a day and I didn't get all my squats in because I had clients during that day. So when I finished my clients at 9:00 PM I was like, I just need to do two sets of squats at one 20. And then I'm done. I did my warmup sets up to one 20. I went down to the bottom of my second rep of 120 kg. And as I came up, something went like that, and then I was done. I was just training too much. My lower back was always sore. I used to have a joke with my friends when we were PTs. They'd like, oh, Brock, what are you training today? And then I'd kind of lean back. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll see this.
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I'd kind of arch my back flex and then go side to side. That would be like if that was painful, I'd be like, oh, my lower back sore so I'm not doing legs. And then I'd say, oh, I'm doing upper body. And it was a bit of a joke because I was always like, my lower back was always sore, but it's because I was training so hard, training so heavy, and there was no recovery. I was still eating a lot, but I just wasn't recovering from training 12 to 14 times per week. So what I did from training twice a day every day, which was 14 days per week, I brought it down to 12 days per week. I would train twice a day every weekday, and then once on the weekend, that made it slightly better. Weekends were amazing because I was only training once a day, but I was still experiencing that lower back pain where I was like, oh, I can't really move.
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It's kind of like, and I'd have sore elbows and sore wrists a lot because I was doing a lot of bench press, a lot of overhead press using a lot of dumbbells and everyone only thinks of your muscles recovering when we're talking about recover. But we also have to think about our joints and our ligaments and our bones, and when we lift heavy, they also take attacks. When you're doing bench press, you're loading the bar on your wrist joint and your elbow joint too, and then your shoulder joints loaded too. So we think, oh, that was a chest tricep and shoulder exercise. I hope they recover. But you have to think about your tendons and ligaments and they'll tell you when they're sore too. So then I went from 12 to 10 days per week where I trained twice a day, Monday to Friday, take the weekends off, still sore.
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Then I went to seven days, which was a dramatic, I literally trained half as much as I used to seven days a week. That was a dramatic improvement. And just from a practical point of view, I had more time during the day. I was getting frustrated with myself just because in my professional life as a personal trainer, while I was face-to-face, I was trying to build my online presence, my online training business as well, and I just didn't have the time training twice a day. And even though I was like, I want to keep transforming my online business, I was like, I need to train twice a day too. So I had this conflict and I would always train because it was like go hard or go home mindset. And now that I only trained seven days per week, I was like, man, I have so much time to work on my business.
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I was still experiencing lack of recovery, so lower back all the time. And now I've trained five days per week for probably the last, since 2020, I would say. And it's brilliant, man. It's so good. I think if you are training more than five days per week now, in my opinion, I just don't feel like you are training efficiently with your time. And if you are training six days a week, seven days a week, and you are recovering well and doing all this stuff, that's fine. But I think you should also ask yourself two questions. The first one being, do you want to spend more time in the gym than you need to? If you want to, that's cool. I don't care. The second thing that I want to ask is, are you actually training hard enough? A lot of people that hit a plateau, they don't have a training workout programme problem.
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They don't have exercise selection problem. They don't have a supplement problem. They need to take creatine or they need to take beta-alanine. The problem they have is intensity. They're not training hard enough. When I train now, I train very hard. I'm lifting heavy weights, I'm making sure I'm timing my rest periods, everything's dialled in, and five days per week, I'm still battered, man. I am recovering enough though, compared to what I used to. I don't wake up with a solo lower back and be like, oh, I can't train legs today because it hurts just to stand up and bend over. But five days per week is such a sweet spot for me. Maybe later on it'll be four days per week if I figure that out. But for now, it's five days per week. I'm doing three days upper body, two days lower body that just favours my goals for my physique.
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I have done the opposite way before, three days lower, two days upper. I just found that that was hard for me to recover from my legs and it was just a bit too lower heavy for the aspirations I have for my upper body, if that makes sense. My lagging body parts are my lats and my shoulders, and I like to spend extra training volume, trying to build up those areas so the no rest, those things really screwed me up. I was always sore, my joints were sore, my wrists were sore a lot from bench press and stuff. Like I said, I would not recommend that. I would recommend five days per week as a maximum. Three days per week can be your minimum. Obviously this depends on how much time you have during the day. Maybe you're a busy mom, you're a busy dad. I dunno. You're a busy person, whatever. Try and find what you can do and then figure out the workout split from the time or the availability that you have to do that in. Excuse me. Yeah, so that's the second point. No rest days. It really screwed me up. The third point I thought cardio had to be done in order to drop body fat. I'm just going to take a sip of coffee.
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Cardio had to be done to be leaner. I thought that's what you had to do. And I mixed this up throughout the entire 15 years that I've been training. First off, I thought cardio had to be done, so I would just do traditional cardio. I would go for runs, I would do sprints because I came from a rugby background. That's what we did. We did this thing called fartlek training, F-A-R-T-L-E-K. That was super challenging. We used to do things like beep tests. We used to do these things. I was actually talking about it with my brother the other day called Henny Molars where you'd so picture a rugby field, you'd jog the width of it and then you'd sprint to the opposite corner and length. So it's like this diagonal from corner to corner from, let's say you're at the bottom left corner of a rugby field, you'd jog across to the right bottom corner, then you'd sprint to the top left corner, then you'd jog to the top right corner and then sprint to the bottom left.
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So you've done this figure eight shape and then you just keep doing that. It was, man, that's probably the biggest scar I have from rugby training. Those ine mullets were the death of me. So I would do things like that initially. And then as I got more into the bodybuilding scene, I guess is what you can call it, I would do things like the STA master, the elliptical. I would get on the treadmill and I would do 32nd sprinting, 30 off, 32nd sprinting, 30 off, 42nd sprinting, 20 off or 20 seconds sprinting 40 off. If I wanted a bit more time, I'll do things like that.
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And that was just a big error because I didn't make any changes with my nutrition and I was like, cardio has to be done to get leaner and I'll do it and I would lose weight, but it wasn't because I was doing cardio. It was because I was creating a calorie deficit through exercising more than I was previously. I would just add in cardio, and if you add in more physical activity, but your calorie stay the same, you're going to create that deficit to drop body fat. So that was a big training error on my part just because I believed it. Now if I want to drop body fat, I will just eat less. I'll just pull back 500 calories and just handle it and just deal with that 500 calories of hunger that I miss during the day. But I would rather do that than do extra cardio.
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Number one, I don't have time. Number two, I don't really enjoy cardio, so I prefer to just eat less. I think it's smarter. It's smarter. And if you can still hit your protein, your minimum protein dose, your minimum fat dose and carbs, just fill up the rest of your calories. If you can still hit that whilst pulling back calories, then happy days. You just have to have a bit of strength and willpower to drop body fat. But that's what it takes anyway. We're in a deficit where our body's literally receiving less energy than it needs. So it's going to be difficult, but you just have to deal with it. That's whole part of dieting, right? You're hungry. You have to just deal with it. So that's point number three. I thought cardio had to be done to be leaner. Point number four is I didn't sleep. I didn't sleep much. I would think that once again, it was for soft people, it was for weak people.
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I once sit in an interview, sleep when you're dead. I used to live by, I legit believe that. I was like, sleep when you're dead, make the most life. I'm here to be successful. I'm here to be this and that. I had big aspirations and goals and I just wouldn't sleep. I would literally try to minimise my sleep as opposed to maximising it, which is what I would try to do now or recommend to my clients. I was like, I would just, yeah, I'll be like, no, I can get away with four hours. I'll go to sleep at 12 and wake up at four. Yeah, that sounds good. And I'll just do that. I'll set my alarm. Bang, I'm up at four and I was going, I would max it out at six hours sometimes, and if I slept more than six hours, I'd feel guilty or I'd accidentally sleep through an alarm.
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I was actually exhausted. But it was a big error, man. The research says seven to nine hours is the sweet spot where we want to try and sit. If you're not sleeping that much, it's going to take a lot away from your life. Number one in your work life, it's going to take away productivity and energy level from a training level, the rate that you, sorry, the amount of effort that it takes to train to failure is perceived as more when you're tired. So if you are doing a hundred kilos squat and you're tired versus you're well slipped and feeling fresh a hundred kilos is going to feel heavier when you're tired than it is when you're fresh and well slept. That sounds really obvious, but if you put that into weeks of training programmes and sets and reps and all that kind of stuff, you can see how that one rep that feels better is going to be that workout that felt better.
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It's going to be that programme that overall felt better. So you're going to be able to train harder. And as you get more advanced intermediate to advanced lifter, you're going to see that you do have to train close to failure to give your muscles a stimulus to adapt, to build muscle, to get stronger, to look better, all that kind of stuff. You have to get close to failure. And if you're so tired that you have to stop early because you think you're close to failure, but in reality you're not. That's where you sit at a plateau. I've dealt with a tonne of clients, especially when I was face-to-face personal training, and I would see them every day. They'd be underlip. They'd have this big corporate job, they'd have family kids, and look, you can't change the fact that you have kids and that you have this busy work life.
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You just got to deal with it. But it was just hard to watch because they was so tired. They'd be so far away from failure and they were really giving it their all, but they just couldn't make progress. It was really hard because they just couldn't get to that level of intensity that they needed to make progress. So if you do have the opportunity to sleep, take it, man, take it. And if you have that mindset of train hard sleep in your dead type of thing, I did look, that will take you so far, but you'll never feel amazing. You're never going to feel truly recovered. When I was under sleeping, it was that same time where I wasn't training five times per week. I was training two times a day, sleeping four to six hours. It was just an absolute nightmare. And yeah, I paid for it.
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I think that's what also paid into my lower back injury that taught me a sleep lesson. So sleep, man, sleep. So like I was saying, kills your productivity and energy levels when you're working. Number two, it affects how you see fatigue and failure and your proximity to fatigue. Number two, in terms of training, you're not going to recover as well. So if you train legs on Monday, upper body Tuesday, then you go do legs again on Wednesday. If you're not well slept, you're probably still going to be sore. So you're going to have to push that leg day back and then do legs on the next day. But then your upper body's still going to be sore, so you're going to have to push that back. You're not going to be recovered. And if you do train whilst you're sore, that's not ideal. You're going to be lifting subpar weights.
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Your muscles are still trying to recover and you're trying to ask them to perform maximally. It's crazy. So it has that impact too. And nutrition wise, lack of sleep. There's a lot of things, but I always say that a tired person and an energetic person have two very different diets. A tired person is going to lean towards convenience. It's going to lean towards takeaways. It's going to lean towards Uber Eats and a person that's fresh and full of energy is going to lean towards more cooking at home, being patient, not reaching for convenience, but actually going okay, you can be a bit more clear-minded, like, okay, I'm going to have a piece of fruit, or I'm just going to, I'll just wait till I go home because I know I have yoghourt in the fridge. As opposed to the Thai person who's like, I'm just starving now.
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Let's just quickly pull over and get something out of the convenience store. It's a Kit Katt bar that adds up those decisions. So yeah, there's a lot of things that happen when you sleep less. I have a podcast on sleep if you want to watch. I got a sleep expert on that was a client of mine, Brad, and I think it's episode two or three, maybe three or four of the Better with Rock Podcast. You can check it out there where we really dive into sleep. But yeah, that was one of the biggest training errors I made. It really impacted me in a bad way. Point number five would be following other people's workouts. I used to do it so much.
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I used to read simply shredded.com. It's like a blog site that I used to just follow religiously. And with that comes, I was naive and I would read simply shooter.com, I'd go in, have a look, and then all these fitness models were there. Lazar Angelo was one where me and my mates idolised their six pack that he had and the casing he had around his abs. I was like, man, I want to have like that. There was Ulysses Jr. There was Jeff Seed or side, Steve Cook, all these guys that had incredible physiques and I used to follow their workouts.
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And when you understand as you get a bit older that their workouts are just absolutely ridiculous, you just can't believe that you were doing those workouts. So I went on to simply shredder.com and I found one of the workouts that I was following for a while and I want to read it out to you and then kind of explain why it didn't work for me. So let me find his workout. I've got it in front of me here. So they used to do interviews and they have photos of their physique and then they interview them like, what's your transformation story? What are the challenges you had to overcome? What's your life like now that you've made a transformation? What motivates you? What's your next goal? All these types of things. What's your current training philosophy? So here's his workouts. Day one was chest and abs flat bench, four times eight, incline bench, four times eight, decline bench, four times eight, pullover four times eight.
(00:34:55):
Hammer press three times eight dips, three times failure, weighted, sit up four times failure hanging leg raise four times. Failure side bends, four times failure. So if we just calculate that in the amounts of sets that you have in one workout, we've got 4, 8, 12, 16, 19, 22, 26, 30, 34, that's 34 sets in a workout. That's a huge workout that's going to take ages. And this doesn't have the tempo or the rest or anything like that. It just has the amount of sets. Okay, so day two, back and traps bent over, row, four times eight, deadlift four times eight pull downs, four times eight pull ups, four times eight cable row four times eight, and then shrugs six times 10. So just a straight back day, pretty much. Day three, dealts, forearms and abs. Military press behind the neck three times eight. Machine press four times eight, lateral raises four times eight.
(00:35:55):
Weight plate front raises four times 10 dumbbell front raises four times eight. Reverse peck deck four times 10, reverse flies, four times eight weighted sit-ups, four times failure, hanging leg raises four times. Failure side bends four times. Failure side crunches, four times failure risk, curl behind back four times. Failure, reverse risk, curl over bench four times failure this day is absolutely huge. So let's count the amount of sets. 3, 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 27, 31, 35, 39, 43, 47, and 51. Okay, so that's 51 sets in one workout. Absolutely ridiculous. I've never programmed that much training volume in my life. You'd be in the workout, sorry, in the gym for at least two hours in that one day. Four triceps and biceps, close grip bench press, push downs, easy barcal crushes, cable kickbacks. So there you got 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 exercises for your triceps back to back. Easy bar curls, four times eight, wide grip curls, four times eight, hammer kills four times eight, concentration kills four times eight.
(00:37:13):
So four triceps, four biceps, and then day five, legs and abs. Man, this just looks ridiculous. Four setss of squats, four times 12 squats to bench four times 12. So you do full range squats and then you just go to do some box squats. Bulgarian split squats, four times 12 quad extensions or leg extensions, four times 16, stiff leg did lift four times 12 leg curls, four times 16, glute kickbacks, four times 20. There we go. Get it. Calf machine raises four times 20. Seated calf raises four times 20 leg press calf raises four times 20, mate. So you've just done 12 sets of calves in one day. Oh my lord. Waited, set up four times. Failure airbike four times failure side bends, four times failure, barbell twists, four times failure. So you can see that's just some more crazy volume. And this is what you would call a bro split where you're dedicating certain body parts to certain days.
(00:38:10):
And this is a way that I no longer programme but used to just because we know that doesn't really, that's not really the best way to do it. And then lower down the lower down in the interview, he'll share his current diet. And I know this podcast is specifically on training, but with the diet, I used to follow that too, and I remember him saying he used to eat grapefruit because it made him shredded in meal one of his diet. He'd say oatmeal, eggs, peanut butter and grapefruit. So you know what I did? I went down to pack and save, which is a New Zealand grocery store, and I got grapefruit and I was having half a grapefruit for breakfast with my breakfast, and I was eating oatmeal, eggs and peanut butter. I was following that down to a tea and can you believe it? I didn't end up looking like this guy. If you are watching this on YouTube, you'll see what his physi like. It's absolutely bonkers.
(00:39:08):
Why did this work not work for me? Number one, it was too much training volume. It was just too much. I couldn't recover from this. Too much training to failure and too much training volume of that same muscle in one workout. So this is why we don't really do bro splits anymore, because if we were to do, let's take his day three, which is dealt forearms and abs. He's got military press behind the neck, which is an exercise we don't really want to do anymore. Anyway, we want to do the military press in front of our neck. So we've got one exercise there that's shoulders, machine press, which is shoulders, shoulder, machine press, that's two lateral raises three weight plate front raises four dumbbell front raises five. So he's got five shoulder exercises back to back. Think about the amount of energy that your shoulders are going to have to perform in those sets.
(00:40:18):
When you first off do the military press behind the neck and then you work down through machine press, lateral raises, weight plate, front raises, dumbbell front raises. If you can imagine, you're playing tech in and your character's life starts at full. As you progress through those different exercises, your health bar's going to start going down and down and down and down. Now look at that health bar as your energy level and your amount of energy that you have to push decent amount of weights. The more you smash that muscle group, the more it's going to build up fatigue and the less peak performance you're going to have to lift those weights. So what we want to do instead of that is instead of just training all your shoulder exercises in one day, if you jump into my five day split, which I do now, I would split those five exercises over the three days.
(00:41:07):
So I could do military press behind the neck machine press on Monday, and then Wednesday I could do lateral raises, weight plate, front raises, and then on Friday I could do dumbbell front raises. I've done the same amount of volume, but I've spread it out so that each time I get to those shoulder exercises, because progressive overload is key, I have more energy and I'm fully recovered and I'm fully focused as well, that has an input your mentality and your mental focus. I can now lift more weights for those exercises that I'm doing later on in the workout because instead of doing them later on in the workout, now I'm doing them at the start or I'm doing them with fresh shoulders. So that's why this doesn't really work for me. It's just too much volume.
(00:41:54):
And secondly, I had high expectations because you think I'm doing this guy's programme, I'm soon going to look like this guy. Now if you've been following Liz Angela for a while, I don't follow him anymore. Obviously I used to read these blogs, but he's admitted to taking clenbuterol while he was getting ready for these photo shoots and stuff like that. And he was super shredded. But I literally thought I was this young naive dude that was just fresh to bodybuilding. I literally thought I could look like Lazar Angelo and I had no idea he was on anything. I didn't even think about it. I was too young. I don't even know if I was aware of steroids. But clean Buty isn't a steroid, but Clean Buty is a performance enhancing drug. It helps you cut weight really fast.
(00:42:41):
And yeah, I didn't look like him. I did. I struggled to build muscle and I had this idea I'm going to look like him and I didn't. And I got frustrated and then that made me want to stop doing that, and I was doing his diet, I was doing his training programme and it just flopped. So that's one of the biggest mistakes I made. Other people's workouts aren't made for you. For example, I genetically speaking have a decent set of arms, biceps and triceps, and I've realised that I don't have to do direct bicep or tricep work to have the desired arms that I want. So I dedicate that extra training volume that a lot of dudes spend training arms. I spend it training other places like my shoulders and my lats that I feel I want to bring up. So everyone's physique is different.
(00:43:34):
I remember seeing Hattie Boyle post on Instagram that she doesn't do direct arm work for that reason too, but also the bikini body that she's pursuing is different. So she might not want to have big arms. She might want to focus more on shoulders and lats and glutes, but I find that my biceps and triceps respond well to my heavy compound work overhead press, bench press, bents over rows, chin-ups, and all the other work that I do, tricep dips and stuff that I don't have to do. Direct tricep work like tricep push downs, tricep rope extensions or barbell curls, dumbbell curls, cable curls, all that type of stuff. I don't do that. So following this guy's workout where he focused a lot on arms, I was spending time in a place that I didn't need to spend it. So following other people's workout programmes isn't really going to benefit you at all.
(00:44:28):
I share workouts every now and then on my socials, but I've kind of pulled away from doing that because of that reason. If you do my workouts, you're not going to look like me. You're not going to be as strong as me. I can provide guidance on this is what works for me. But if you are doing someone else's workout programme to get the results that you want, most likely it's not going to align. Point number six, one of the biggest training areas that I made was just too much strength work. And this kind of comes back to a point that I was talking about earlier. My lower back was always sore. My elbows were always sore and it wasn't balanced with enough hypertrophy work, too much heavy work. So when we look at building muscle and when we look at getting stronger, they're two different goals, but they're also intertwined.
(00:45:13):
So if you want to build muscle, you can do that by getting stronger. The stronger you get, the more weight you can lift when you're doing hypertrophy work. And let's look at strength work as lifting reps between one to six hypertrophy work. You can build muscle between one and five two, but generally speaking, hypertrophy work is more six to 12. That's the kind of rep range hypertrophy work as. It's not too heavy to be stressful on your central nervous system, your neurological system, your joints and your ligaments and your tendons, but it's not too light that you have to do too many reps to get close to failure. So it's kind of like the sweet spot of building muscle. This is why it was called the hypertrophy rep range because it's not too heavy, but it's not too light type of thing. But I got obsessed with trying to get strong.
(00:46:10):
I started lifting weights, and this was probably when I became a personal trainer because when you're a personal trainer, who do your friends become personal trainers? What do personal trainers do? Pretty much every day they lift weights. And when you lift weights and you are surrounded by competitive dudes that also lift weights, you get into a dick measuring contest of how much weight you can lift. And I fell for that. And I just used to try to lift as much weight as possible. I'll do a lot of strength work, a lot of strength training programmes that I wrote myself, and I wasn't doing enough hypertrophy work to give my joints a chance to rest because I fell in love with that low rep range. And I also responded very well to that. I feel like I have a lot of type two muscle fibres, which are explosive strength-based muscle fibres, and I responded very well to it.
(00:47:02):
I felt like I built decent muscle mass lifting heavy, and I saw, I was just like, I'll just do it all the time. But if you look at Ronnie Coleman, you can see what the results of that are if you take that too far. So I was getting too sore too often, but it wasn't always my muscles, it was my joints. My wrists were sore from too much bench press, heavy bench press. My wrists were sore from too much overhead press. And this wasn't because a lack of technique. I mean it could have been, but it was mainly just because there was too much weight on my body For too long. I was doing heavy deadlift, I was doing heavy squats. So my lower back took a lot of toll and I was just like, and even when I was doing dumbbell work, I was sticking to four to six reps.
(00:47:49):
So I was still trying to lift heavy all the time, and I just got so sore that I wasn't able to keep up and my weight started dropping. I started actually going backwards, but I was too stubborn to go back to hypertrophy work that I was just staying strength work and just kind of suffer the consequences. But I would recommend to be much smarter than me and balance your strength. Work with hypertrophy work. So you could do something like two strength programmes, two hypertrophy programmes, two strength programmes, two hypertrophy programmes. It really just depends on what you can handle. I like to do two strength programmes of one hypertrophy programme, two strength programmes, one hypertrophy programme. I feel like that works for me, but you might want to do one strength programme and two hypertrophy programmes. It depends on what you respond to as well and what you enjoy. I really enjoy getting under heavy weight and lifting it, and now I can do it. I'm currently on my second strength programme now. I just came off a programme that I wrote for myself, which was, what was it? What was it? I was going down to 2 8 6 4 2 6 42. Yeah, sorry. I was doing it actually. Oh, my phone's filming. I was doing a workout programme that was like 6 4, 2 2, no, 6 4, 4 2. Yep, that was it.
(00:49:17):
So I would do a weight six reps. Next set was going to be for the next one was going to be four again, and then it was two. So that descending rep method was for my bench press, my overhead press, my weighted pull-ups, my bent over rows, my single arm Dunbar rows because I liked that strength building aspect. Then the rest of the exercises were like six to eight max reps were like 10, and those were for arms and abs. And now I'm doing a five by five programme. Pretty simple strength programmes. I just love it. I just enjoy it. I just want to lift heavy weights. Maybe it's an ego thing, maybe I need to deal with that later. But I just like being strong and I'm getting strong at the moment. But then after this, I know that I'm going to have to take a break because my shoulders, my elbows, my knees and stuff like that, my lower back will start to feel it and I could just pull off my training and just ease off and just do maybe lighter loads.
(00:50:16):
Or I could do less of a training split instead of five days. I could do four days, but I enjoy training, so I want to keep that five in there. So what I do is I just go to a hypertrophy programme where I can focus more on building muscle than getting strong. But the awesome thing about training with strength programmes and going in and out of hypertrophy programmes to strength programmes is they benefit one another. Like I was saying earlier, they're intertwined. So for strength, when you get stronger, you can lift more weights in those hypertrophy rep ranges. So if my squats getting stronger from my 6 4 4 2 programme and then my five by five programme and then I do a eight to 12 rep range for squats, I'm going to be able to do more in that eight to 12 rep range because I increased my strength in that 6, 4, 4, 2, and five by five programme, if that makes sense.
(00:51:05):
And vice versa. If I do a hypertrophy programme, I'm building a bigger muscle and a bigger muscle has a potential to be a stronger muscle. So now that I have bigger muscles that can help me to be stronger as well. So try to balance your strength work. It looks different for everyone, but just consider it. My last point is training fasted. I trained fasted, and I'm just going to be really honest and just put it out there. I hated it. I don't like faster training for myself. It may work for you, but I don't like it for myself. I did it because I was in that mindset that I talked about earlier. Train hard. I'm the man. I'm a go-getter. I'm working while you're sleeping. I'm a successful dude. This is what I do. This is my identity.
(00:51:55):
But when I trained early in the morning, man, I was pathetic. My deadlift wasn't stronger, my squat wasn't stronger. Nothing that I was lifting felt great. I was still half waking up like real heavy eyelids and blinking because the lights were so bright and the music was so loud, I was like struggling and it just never worked for me. Some people like training faster and some people have to, that's the only time they get to train. 5:00 AM till 7:00 AM and then they've got to come back home. Kids get them ready, bang. Then go to work from nine till five, pick up the kids, you're at home at seven, and then it's like, okay, got two hours to meet dinner for the kids or whatever, watch succession and then go to sleep and then do it all over again. I get that you may not have flexibility to change the time when you train, but just training fasted was my biggest training error personally. And there was some research recently that came out. Now keep in mind, this was done with Ramadan, so it was a study done with that sort of fasting where they eat when the sun goes down, and then when the sun comes up, you can't eat or drink water. But I want to read the study out just to give you an idea.
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Here we go. During Ramadan month, I'll put the link to the study in the show notes as well. During Ramadan month, Muslims often continue training to maintain their muscle performance. However, trainers should stress the importance of the time of day chosen for practise resistance training during Ramadan fasting to avoid health and performance alteration. Thus, this study aimed to investigate the effects of the timing of resistance training during Ramadan intermittent fasting on muscle strength and hypertrophy in healthy male adults. The methods 40 men were randomly allocated to two matched groups, 20 practising whole body resistance training in the late afternoon in a fasted state, and 20 training in the late evening in a fed state. Both groups performed four days per week of whole body resistance training at 75 to 85% of their one rep max 12 reps, three to four sets during Ramadan anthropometric measurements and one repetition maximum test for the squats, deadlift and bench press were measured.
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Those your classic power lifting lifts, cross-sectional area of the quads and biceps were examined using ultrasound scans. All measurements were taken at four time points, 24 hours before the start of Ramadan, 15th day, 29th day, and 21 days after Ramadan post hoc tests indicated this is the results. They indicated significant pre improvement to post improvement in Fed at the 29th day of Ramadan for the one rep max test for the squats and deadlift wing compared to 24 hours before the start of Ramadan. No significant changes were observed in the fasted state group or for cross-sectional area for both groups. Conclusions, practising resistance training during Ramadan appears not to have adverse effects on muscle hypertrophy and strength, no matter whether it is practised in fed or faster state. However, resistance training had greater effects on muscle strength when applied in a Fed State. Our findings suggests that training sessions should be scheduled after breaking the fast during Ramadan down.
(00:55:17):
So if you look at it like that, hypertrophy isn't really affected, but strength is, and I definitely found that when I tried to lift weights and look, this is not, I wasn't doing Ramadan, but it's like you are fasted when you wake up and you don't eat and you go straight to the gym because you've technically probably had eight hours of sleep. Maybe it's taken you one hour, two hours to go to the gym. You haven't eaten yet. You haven't eaten for 10 hours, and you're not, I'm just not the same person. I need a couple of cups of coffee, which I'm sipping here
(00:55:52):
And some calories behind me to be strong. That's just how I am. I think that's how most humans are. I trained fasted, and I just didn't like it. For me personally, that was a training era. As you can see from this study about Ramadan, the strength was impacted, but the muscle bleeding potential wasn't. But when you look at it, when you haven't eaten for a long amount of time and you think of going to the gym, you might have less drive. You might have less energy, just less zeal to actually get in and smash it. I'm a different person when I'm hungry, man, I do not want to go to the gym when I'm hungry. I would rather eat while I'm training than be hungry, and that's what I do. So for example, later on today, I'm going to go to Jiujitsu and then I'm going to go straight to the gym, and then I'm going to go home in between that I don't have time to eat because Jiujitsu is so close to the gym and I just need to get them out of the way.
(00:56:51):
I go straight there. So I'm literally eating. I go to IGA a and get a protein cookie or two, and I eat them while I'm working out. I would never recommend it to a client. This is a suboptimal way of doing it. But with the new addition of my daughter to the family and me wanting to get home, I'm just like, I'll squash it in and then I'll just go home and it'll be all good. I would way rather eat while I'm training, and I used to do it as a PT two, I just didn't have time. I'd have to train before I see clients and instead of eating and not training, I would just eat and train. Once again, not my recommendation to anyone out there, but it's just what I did to get through it and to tick all the boxes for the day.
(00:57:31):
So if you want to train fast, go ahead. But there is what the research says just with this one study, and I guess my anecdotal evidence with being strong, you want some calories behind you. If you do want caffeine behind you, that's great. If you want to take a pre-workout or you want to drink a black coffee like I do, that's cool too. That's what I choose to do. But caffeine does have performance and hunting effects, so I would recommend that if you do want to optimise your training and how much you're lifting and stuff. Yeah, that would be my last point of the seven biggest training errors that I made. Let's finish on a quote. I really like quotes, and I recently had one from a negotiation book that I read, and it applies to anything in life. It's about negotiation. So the book is getting to yes, and the quote goes like this, the more you ask for, sorry, there's meant to be a comma there. Let me restart that. The more you ask for, the more you are likely to get in negotiation studies, aspiration is correlated with result within reason. It pays to think positively, right? That makes sense. The more you ask for, the more you are likely to get. And there is a set of people that don't like to aim high because they're scared of getting discouraged or not hitting it. The whole, what is it? Aim for the moon, land on the clouds, or shoot for the stars, land on the clouds type of thing.
(00:59:08):
Just aim high, man. That's what I'm trying to say. Just aim high, aim high, shoot for the stars. Because if you don't ask yourself, ask this of yourself, can you reach this goal that you want to get that's super high, what you really want to achieve? But you're scared to say because you don't know what people are going to say about you. Oh, he tried to do this, but he failed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah stuff there, man. Just go for it. Because if you don't open your mindset to that opportunity that you could actually get it, then you're never going to achieve anything impressive. You have to ask yourself for these crazy things that you can do or else. It's never this option in your mind. So if you're always thinking, oh, just thinking low. Oh, I want to go for a holiday just down the road. Okay, cool, you can do that. Why don't you go on a holiday to the Maldives, just shoot for, oh, but that costs money. Okay, then, so now you're shooting for the stars. It's going to require a plan of action. Okay, it's going to cost money. How much is it going to cost? How are you going to make that? So then even just by dreaming bigger, you are opening up opportunities for you to work harder and increase your capacity to do so.
(01:00:14):
It can be for anything, your dream job, whatever you want to do. I just thought I wanted to be a personal trainer. But then as I was a personal trainer and people started asking me, oh, can you help me for training? And they were in America, they were in Asia, they were in Africa. I had to open my mind. I'm like, okay, I'm going to be an online personal trainer. Bang. So then I started, okay, but if I'm going to be online personal trainer, I'm going to need a website. I'm going to need systems in place. How am I going to market to people? How am I going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it opened up my capacity, but it also, if I didn't ask myself to do that, I never would've achieved that, if that makes sense.
(01:00:54):
The more you ask for, the more you are likely to get in negotiation studies, aspiration is correlated with result within reason. It pays to think positively, and that's that whole, there's that subset of people that I was saying that aren't necessarily thinking optimistically, but I think there's a big set of people that are entrepreneurs that are successful people, people that we idolise or look up to or admire, and they're optimistic people. If you're not optimistic, you're not going to go for it. If you don't think there's going to be a positive outcome, you're not going to get off your ass and do the thing that you need to do. So try and get in a positive mindset. One thing I do is I have a gratitude list that I read every day, and that puts me in a positive frame of mind. I have to have a good day after that because I've just been super grateful for the fact that I have breath in my lungs for the fact that I have a career that I enjoy.
(01:01:45):
I have a roof over my head. I have these really basic fundamentals that I remind myself of, and then anything above that is like a bonus. So I'm like far out, man, life's good. Let's go for it. But I feel like if you don't have that mindset that life is good and that there are positive things happening, look, I understand the world's a shitty place too, and there are things that happen in the world that are just uncalled for that really throw your life in downward spirals. You get addicted to something, you lose a friend, you lose a parent, you lose a business, you go broke. There's certain things, but if you can remind yourself of these things, then it can help you to have a positive perspective, which can help you lead to dreaming bigger to get you that result that you want, whatever it is. So I hope that helps practise gratitude. First thing in the morning, I say thank you for the roof over my head. Thank you for food on my plate. Thank you for money, my wallet. Thank you for breath. In my lungs, I say these types of things. It sounds super cheesy, it sounds really lame, but it works and it's worked for me, and I hope it works for you. Thanks for listening. I'll see you in the next podcast. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Hey mate, how you going? Brock Ashby here in this episode of The Better with Brock podcast, we are going to be diving into Undereating and we're going to look at what it is, what leads to getting to a place where we are undereating, the consequences of undereating, and also how we can make changes in our life to do our best to prevent it from happening. Without further ado, let's jump into it.
(00:31):
First of all, let's define what Undereating is. It's chucked around in the fitness industry quite a lot, but if you're new to it or this is the first time listening to the Bitter with Brock podcast, let me define it for you. Undereating is simply consuming fewer calories than the body demands to maintain weight. That's pretty self-explanatory. And a question that I've had a few times is how is undereating different from a calorie deficit? If you dunno what a calorie deficit is, it's what we need to lose weight. It's where we consume fewer calories, sorry, then we burn. So if we burn 2,500 calories a day, but we only consume 2000 calories, there's a 500 calorie deficit and that is how we lose body fat and how is undereating different from a calorie deficit? And the answer is, well, it's not really that different. If we're undereating, we are creating a calorie deficit.
(01:33):
But the way that I would define the difference if we read in between the lines, undereating is like a constant calorie deficit that just doesn't stop and it becomes a lifestyle almost. It becomes an identity that someone has. I've had a lot of experience training people and there is people that I have trained that have just been on 1200 calories since they can remember. That's just who they've started to identify as. Just someone that eats 1200 calories, where that is a ridiculous amount of calories to live on. It can be put into context for a fat loss phase, but you don't want to be there for very long. And it's the same. I've had some men that I've trained in there at 1600 calories and they're training almost every day, which is a very, very low amount of calories to try and sustain their everyday life and support their physical activity and it's just not enough.
(02:41):
And that's who, well, this particular person kind of identified themself as just a person that ate 1600 calories and always sought out low calorie options. And I feel like that's the difference between undereating and just undergoing a calorie deficit is under eating's a bit more a permanent, and it begins to, I guess, morph into that person's personality as well. So that's just how I would differ. Undereating with a calorie deficit, I feel like people know how to utilise a calorie deficit, but then without them noticing a calorie deficit I feel can turn into undereating if you're not aware of it. And that leads me to the next question I want to answer is, what leads people to undereat to consume fewer calories than their body demands to maintain their weight or eating under their maintenance calories?
(03:48):
One would be body dissatisfaction and that is just not being satisfied with their body wanting to make a change. Often that is losing weight, so we begin to create a calorie deficit, but as I touched on previously, that can just continue to roll into a calorie deficit if we're not aware. So body dissatisfaction can be one, but that body dissatisfaction can also be in real life. If you wake up and you go to the bathroom, you take a leak, you look at yourself in the mirror and go, I'm just not happy with how I look. Today is the day that I make a change. And that could be a positive example of how body dissatisfaction has motivated someone into change, but it can also be quite negative and it really depends on the person and how they're feeling that day or what their personality is.
(04:41):
But it could also be you wake up, you take a leak, you look in the mirror and you go, I hate the way I look. I'm going to starve myself because I'm a terrible person like this and I need to punish myself. That's just a random example, but it could be that. So body dis defection is just simply being unhappy with your body. That can drive people to make a positive change and it can also send them on a downward spiral. It just really depends on the trajectory that you choose. Another thing that leads to undereating is a desire to make body composition changes. And that could be, like I said, from body dissatisfaction, but it also could be just from something else. If you are getting ready to get married, like me and my wife did, we both went under our own sort of body transformation because we wanted to look great for our wedding.
(05:40):
We wanted to be our best physically also because we were going to go on honeymoon and eat our body weight in main courses at the breakfast buffet. So we wanted to get ourselves into a good position where we felt greater on our wedding day, but also could make the most of the celebrations of round and not be like, oh, sorry, I'm not having a slice of pizza. I'm actually counting calories on my wedding day. We didn't want to do that. And if you want to do that on your wedding day, that's completely fine. That's just not my idea of a good time. So it could just be a desire to make a body composition change. You might want to lose weight for a sport. You might want to try and motivate family members that you live with to make positive changes and lead by example.
(06:34):
These are just other examples. Lack of nutritional knowledge can also lead you there. And I fell for this when I was younger, when I was full of passion, when I was full of drive and motivation to be a bodybuilder like I saw in the fitness magazines and read on simply shredder.com in the blog forums, I was just so committed I would do anything. And what I was doing at the time was cardio sessions and weight sessions on the same day whilst also counting my calories, eating 1500 calories a day and going low carbs. I was just putting everything that I read from the fitness magazines and the blog posts into a blender and just drinking everything that I absorbed. So I was doing everything and everything that I thought was right. Some was questionable knowledge, some was okay knowledge, but I didn't know the context that the information had to be in, and I just did everything at once and that lack of nutritional knowledge definitely led me to undereating for a significant amount of time.
(07:42):
I was eating 1500 calories for, I can't remember if it was three months or six months, but it was a very long time and I lost, how much was it? I lost 21 kg in a very short amount of time. It was something like six months and that lack of nutritional knowledge, I didn't even know what a calorie was, but I was tracking 1500 calories and I was just avoiding carbohydrates like the plague and just eating protein and eating fats and eating. Man, I remember I had one time I was craving so hard, I was craving to have just a sandwich and I had a sandwich with banana and peanut butter and honey in it, and it tasted, wow, it tasted like I had died and gone to heaven, and then the guilt just came over me and just smashed me. I felt terrible. So what did I do?
(08:35):
I went out for a run and then I went to the gym and I kind of punished myself through exercise. So as you can see, this is not healthy, but I didn't know any better because I didn't have nutritional knowledge, but I also didn't have training knowledge. So that lack of knowledge can really get you in sticky situations if you're not aware of it. I was just young and full of passion, like I said, and I still made progress, but I also think I did myself some disservice with my relationship with food, with my energy levels, et cetera. I mentioned before sports can get you to undereat if you want to do a weight cut or you want to make a certain team that has to be under a certain weight or you're getting ready for a fight. Let's say you do jiujitsu and you're about to compete in the 88 kg category and you're 92, you have to go undergo a calorie deficit to drop body fat. You could stay in that calorie deficit too long, fall in love with looking lean and just stay there. That's another example.
(09:35):
Social media can lead you to undereating in many ways. You could be following fitness influencers, personal trainers, online, personal trainers, and they could be sharing their meals and maybe they are posting that they eat 1200 calories a day and they have kale smoothies for breakfast and then they have a green juice for lunch, and then they have a naughty snack of a handful of nuts, and then they have a little portion of salmon with brown rice and bok choy, and then they might treat themselves to a little yoghourt that's 120 calories for dessert, and then they finish on 1200 calories and it's almost seen to you as that is the way forward. That's how I kind of move towards looking like this fitness influencer. You could fall for that. So just simply following someone's stories and what people eat from day to day, whether that's even what they eat or not, you could be seeing that as, okay, that's what they've done.
(10:33):
That's also what I have to do if I want to take my body transformation serious. I had Leah Simmons on the podcast, if you haven't watched it or listened to it, check it out. And she was talking about how when social media first came along and she was getting into fitness, she used to make these perfect little plates of food that were all nutrient dense, that were low in calories that were high in protein. She'd take photos and take and create content around this meal and then she would just slide it in the bin because she wasn't eating those foods. She wasn't actually eating. She was severely undereating. She was starving herself to maintain this image that she thought was healthy and we could be following that and trying to eat those meals. Not even knowing the dark side of the fitness industry where that probably still happens today.
(11:31):
Not everything that you see on social media is what it is, but yeah, also on social media, there's people with incredible genetics that are just lean year round. There are also people that are enhanced athletes taking peds or performance and hunting drugs and not disclaiming that. And you thinking, man, this guy, he looks all year round, his chest is huge, his biceps are pumping, his body fat's low. He looks like 8% and he's just there. Oh yeah. So you start thinking that's what's normal or that's what's achievable. I can look like that all year round because this guy does. So you try to stay lean all year round and for you to stay lean all year round, you have to stick to a very low calorie deficit diet and stay on these poverty calories and then you fall into that category of undereating. So social media is great for many, great, for many reasons, but it's also can be a place that really damages people in their fitness journey too, because there are some great coaches online and then there are some that have just achieved this amazing physique by hard work and determination and share what has worked for them, which may not be the best practise for you, lack of awareness that it's happening.
(12:55):
That is a big one. That got me with undereating. I didn't even know I was undereating. I was just like, it's 1500 calories. All right, I'm always hungry. I'm always slightly bothered. I'm hangry 24 7, but this is just what it takes to look lean and to drop body fat. I just had no awareness. And this is kind of similar to the point of having lack of nutritional knowledge or training knowledge. What you don't know you don't know, and what you aren't aware of you cannot change. So that's why I always push education and I post education. My clients have a tonne of educational videos when they sign up to Team Brock Ashbury, if you want to, you can just hit the link on my buy Instagram or just go to my website. But education is something that is huge and it's something that I've really grown to love in all aspects of life, not just fitness.
(13:48):
I'm currently reading the 48 Laws of Power at the moment, and even just listening and just growing and feeling like you're progressing in some way, shape or form is a great feeling that I really like. But having that in the area of fitness can just help you stop wasting time. The time wasted can be huge for you in fitness if you aren't aware of what you're doing. So education is a great pillar to kind of stand on. And one thing that we can fall into when we are looking at creating a calorie deficit and let's say we do fall into undereating, is falling into something that I fell into, which was an eating disorder. I didn't get diagnosed by someone, but after having Sarah Liz King on the podcast and just analysing it, what my life was like, what the thoughts were running through my head at that time, I definitely had one.
(14:46):
When I was on this 1500 calorie diet, I was obsessive. I only thought about food. I avoided social situations where we went out for dinner, I'd make excuses to go home or just simply tell them no to their face because I thought I was more committed than other people. I thought I was determined to be great and this was what was required to do so. And I'm not afraid of hard work and I thought this was the hard work that had to be done, but really I think it was an eating disorder covered up with excuses. And once again, I didn't know at the time. But yeah, it's quite easy to fall into that and just get obsessed with food and counting calories and getting really, really stuck to a certain amount of calories. Thinking of foods such as good foods and bad foods, which I definitely had, which is also known as dichotomous thinking or black and white thinking.
(15:45):
That's often not how the world works. There are some definites in the world. There are some black and whites, there are some yes and noss, but most things in life are not dichotomous. They are nuanced, they are grey, and context has to be there. And the same as with food. If you look at foods as bad or good, if you eat a bad food, then you might think you're a bad person, then that's going to make you feel guilty. And then that might lead to a binge eating episode where I found myself a lot too. So you have to be careful with how you look at food. I encourage flexible dieting. I think that it's a great concept. I think that it allows you to have a realistic and holistic way of looking at nutrition, but I won't go too much into that. I did have a piece from a study that I wanted to read out around eating disorders and undereating.
(16:51):
Here we go. Overall, the risk to experience any form of ED or eating disorders was increased in athletes when compared to non-athletic controls, 13.5% to 4.6%. So ultimately what that's saying is athletes are more likely to get eating disorder. So this is around athletes versus non-athletes, but it just does kind of paint a picture in terms of the reality of this happening. And we could also potentially call ourselves athletes if we are consistently training in the gym. I think that would help us fall into this category. To relate to this study even more so particularly athletes engaging in aesthetic leanness focused or weight sensitive sports, we're at a higher risk to develop disordered eating patterns than athletes from sports where body weight or shape is secondary eg ball sports. This was also shown in a study conducted by etal, which reported a higher prevalence of eds and female athletes from leanness focused sports, 46.7% in comparison to athletes from non leanness focused sports, 19.8% in male athletes, roughly 25% of athletes from aesthetic leanness focused or weight sensitive sports showed disor dietary patterns.
(18:20):
So that kind of shows a slight bias towards females falling at the mercy of Eden disorders a little bit more. But I think the takeaway from this piece, from the study, which I'll link in the description, is that if we are focused on how lean we are and we're focused on how we look our aesthetics, we can be a bit more at risk of edss and we have to be aware that we are kind of playing with fire when we are counting calories, when we are counting macros, when we are tracking our weight, weekly, daily, biweekly, monthly, whatever rhythm you're falling into, data is great, especially as a personal trainer. I need that data to make changes for my clients to enhance their body composition or switch goals. Alright, we lean enough, let's start building or alright, we need to pull back the calories, our body fat's getting a bit too high out of your comfort zone. We need to get a bit lower.
(19:33):
I like it as a coach, but you as an individual, and this is where you have to decide or learn along your journey where you have to decide how far you take it. Are you going to track calories every single day or are you just going to track protein? Are you going to count the number of meals that you have? Instead of tracking calories? Are you just going to say, okay, I'm going to wake up and have four meals instead of five meals today and let's just track that because when I get too obsessed over calories and macros, I can't stop thinking about it and then I fall into bad habits where I previously had an ed, that might be you or some clients of mine, they like to upload their weight monthly or biweekly. I prefer it weekly. Personally, I do it daily, but that's because I have a mindset that can pull my worth, my self-esteem away from these numbers and just look at them as data.
(20:39):
I think it's because I've almost desensitised myself to it because I'm a coach and I just see people's weight every day. I see photos of people's bodies every single day and I'm just like these people, I'm just another body. I'm just another lump of muscle and a lump of fat. I'm just more weight or less weight. I can really look at it like that. I don't think, oh man, I've gained two kg. I'm less of a person. I'm not worthy. And having self-doubt everywhere, I don't fall into that and that doesn't mean I'm superior. That just means that my brain works different or I've trained myself around it in some way that I haven't been aware of. Some people really struggle with that and I empathise with you if that is you. And I want to say to you that you don't have to weigh yourself every day or every week, every month if you don't want to.
(21:32):
If you don't even want to weigh yourself at all, that's completely fine. Maybe you can handle taking photos, maybe you can handle just measuring your waist and you could measure it and go, okay, my waist is 40 today and then you could measure it in two months and maybe it's 36, so you've lost four centimetres off your waist. That's a very positive result. You haven't tracked to accurately to potentially impact you negatively, but you've still seen a difference. The only reason I like a higher frequency of tracking data around body metrics is because that allows me to make more changes if I need to or allows me to track what's going on more accurately. If one of my clients is uploading weight once a month and we work together for a year, that's 12 pieces of data that I get. If I work for that for another client for a year and they upload their photos and their weight every week, that's 52 points of data so I can make more changes on the fly. If their calories and macros aren't responding, I can change them quickly instead of waiting for three more weeks while their calories and macros haven't turned out like I thought they would have. So that's just why I like to as a coach and personally, I can be quite strict on myself because I can handle it. So I weigh myself every day. I film myself most days to make content, so I'm very aware of what my body's doing and I don't mind that, but some people do.
(23:13):
What are the consequences of undereating while there is a few? The first one is metabolic adaptation. If you're unaware of that term, what metabolic adaptation is is your body's response to the amount of calories that you are consuming versus how many you're burning. And that can be positive and that can be negative. For example, if you are constantly in this context of the podcast, which is around undereating, if we're constantly undereating or we're in a calorie deficit for so long, our body is going to stop burning the amount of calories that it usually did because it's not receiving the same amount of calories. So if we get practical and start looking at numbers, if your maintenance calories is 2,500 and you're consuming 2000 every day, you're going to have that calorie deficit of 500 calories and you're going to have that discrepancy there. But if you continue to stay at 2000 calories, your body's not going to stay burning 2,500 calories every day.
(24:20):
It's going to start slow down processes so that the amounts of calories that you burn per day become a bit closer to what you're receiving. Because if we look at it from a historical point of view and an evolutionary perspective, if we were just to continue to burn calories that we didn't have and eat into our body fat, we would die or we would become very weak and fragile where a hungry grizzly bear would just come and lap us up and we would be their breakfast. So it's not in our best interest to continue to burn energy that we don't have. It does happen to a certain point, but then our body starts metabolically adapting to the amounts of calories that we're consuming and it starts slowing it down. It starts preserving your energy, it starts slowing down how fast you move, and these influences happen to help you ultimately maintain your body weight because your body wants you to stay the weight that you are.
(25:30):
Your body wants to sit at homeostasis. It doesn't want to lose body fat because that body fat is what we're surviving of. And now we live in an environment where we have an abundance of food around us. So starving to death, to death, well, starving to death for most people is not a realistic outcome of the day. I understand that in certain aspects of the world, food is still very hard to come by, but for most of us, especially listening to this podcast, we probably won't star to death and we still need to be aware of how many calories we're consuming versus how much we're burning because if we just continue to undereat, our body's going to stop giving us that energy and it's going to start slowing down things. So with metabolic adaptation, that's what leads to a fat loss plateau. If you come back to that example, alright, you're eating 2000 calories, but you burn in 2,500, that 2,500 is slowly going to come down.
(26:39):
We're going to start wanting to move less, train a little bit less intensely. You might use your hands a bit less, you might want to sit down more often. And most of this is subconscious, but it does happen in really, really extreme examples, and I talked about this in the previous podcast. Some body building competitive athletes actually because they were in such an extreme calorie deficit metabolic adaptation was real. They were blinking slower. They were so lethargic because their body was like, if I just keep blinking as fast as possible, that's energy, then I'm wasting. So their body was that desperate to preserve energy. So metabolic adaptation can occur.
(27:26):
Low energy availability can also happen LEA, and that represents a state in which the body does not have enough energy left to support all physiological functions needed to maintain optimal health. So it's similar to the definition of undereating, but it kind of adds in. You're not getting enough nutrients, calories, micronutrients, all these things, energy to support your physiological functions to maintain optimal health. So low energy availability is kind of like your health is deteriorating and that's the seriousness of undereating. The mild seriousness is okay, your energy's going to be impacted, but then the great consequences, your health is going to become a concern if you just continue to undereat and real serious problems can happen. And when you're in this state of low energy availability, many things can happen. Potentially females can lose their period or their menstrual cycle, which is known as amenorrhea.
(28:48):
You can have decreased performance and that's just simply because you are consuming less fuel, right? Less gas in the gas tank, you're just going to get more tired. Your body's going to be like, well, why would I exert all this energy because I'm only getting 1200 calories a day. I can't train as if I'm eating 2,500 calories today. I just don't have that energy. So it's not going to do that potential loss of muscle mass. It is harder for protein synthesis to occur if you're not consuming enough protein, but also not consuming enough overall calories. So that may happen. Poor recovery, if you're not having once again enough micronutrients, enough macronutrients, enough calories overall it's going to be harder to recover. And then that kind of just keeps snowballing into, okay, so you can't recover. That means you can't train hard. Sorry, you can't train as frequently.
(29:45):
But then if you're not training as frequently when you are training, you have less performance because you have less energy, then that's going to add into losing muscle mass, then you're going to be more lethargic. You're going to have potential brain fog throughout the day. You can drink as much caffeine as you want, consume as many stimulants as you want, but low energy availability and constant undereating is going to catch you. I tried to run away from it for ages and I ended up crashing and burning. I experienced some of the darkest thoughts and hardest times of my life when I was under eating, and that isn't the only thing that was happening. I obviously had things going on in my life. I was changing careers. I had just broken up with the band that I was singing in and trying to organise what I was actually doing with my life.
(30:39):
So that was a big concern of my life. So it was very big and I was taking my life very seriously. I thought I was destined for greatness. And I was like, what am I even doing with my life now that the band's broken up? Do I keep trying to sing? Do I become a fitness guy, a personal trainer? Do I do a course? Do I move back to Christchurch? I just moved to Auckland and I live in a shitty house and there's cockroaches everywhere and I'm unhappy. So I had this big breakdown, but now that I come to think of it, this pivotal time in my life, I was also starving myself. This was when I was at the 1500 calorie mark. I was that guy. I was constantly undereating. I was obsessing over food. I was always hungry. I was eating one meal a day.
(31:23):
Sometimes I would not eat all day, train at three or 4:00 PM and then eat after that, so I hadn't. It was just a rough time and I think undereating didn't help. And I think another consequence of undereating is lack of aggression. And that isn't like, Hey man, you want to fight? Like, no, I'm undereating. I'm not aggressive. It's like determination. It's ticking off goals. It's making something of yourself. Having aggression or ambition could be another word or drive. Sometimes you meet people and you're like, this person wants to go somewhere. This person is fulfilled. And I feel like when you're under eating, you just don't have enough energy to do that and have that drive. Sometimes you can override it with just pure mental determination. I think I sat in that category when I was first in that point, but as I just shared, I did break down at the end of that and I feel like that's when it got to me. I just didn't have the energy to deal with things physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. It was just a bit of a weird time in my life. I think that undereating didn't help.
(32:33):
Now, the question to close off this podcast is how do you prevent metabolic adaptation? How do you prevent undereating? How do you prevent low energy availability? All of these things that I have been talking about, the first thing that I'm going to say is get in, get out. That's how we prevent undereating from happening. If our goal is fat loss and we only want to have a fat loss phase, not the beginning of an undereating progression in your life or regression if we want to be a bit honest because it's not going to be the best for you, but also this can stop you from it kind of rolling over into an eating disorder potentially. We need to get in and get out. And I'm referring to the calorie deficit here, and I say this with clients a lot. We're either cutting, we're in a calorie deficit and we're getting lean or we're not.
(33:45):
And the more serious we do this fat loss phase, the better it's going to be, be more effective. But also you are going to be in a calorie deficit less. You're going to be undereating for a shorter amount of time. That's what we want. You want to get back to maintenance calories or even better being in a calorie surplus and stuff in your face with food, that's amazing. We need to get in and get out. A calorie deficit should not be a lifestyle. This is what frankly pisses me off about the fitness industry. There's a lot of personal trainers that almost idolise the calorie deficit and having low calorie foods all the time and doing all these swaps. And I understand that most of the population is overweight and needs help with fat loss. So I do empathise with that, and I do understand that there are changes that we need to make as a a general population.
(34:38):
We are mostly overweight and we need to make changes, but I think sometimes it doesn't help that all the personal trainers are just kind of glorifying these low calorie foods and we should all be striving to lose weight and live in this calorie deficit. That's not what we need to do. And I definitely don't subscribe to this idea, and that's why I post myself eating three burgers, chicken nuggets and chips, not because it's a cheap meal bru, but because that's what I like to eat and that's what I eat on a daily basis. And I'm not trying to rub it in that I can have a six pack and be muscular, but still eat burgers. That's not the point. I'm trying to say, Hey man, I eat like a regular dude, but I train hard. I implement certain principles that help me win the day, trying to get enough sleep, trying to get enough steps, applying progressive overload in the gym following a personalised programme or just a workout programme in general, training with good form, making sure I'm hitting a high protein diet, making sure I'm hitting my calories every day.
(35:47):
These are things that I've put in place to achieve what I am and do what I do. But we don't need to live in a calorie deficit. I haven't been in a calorie deficit for a long time. I think the last time I was in Christmas, and that was unintentional, I got gastro, I got sick and I lost about, I think I lost around four to five kilos and I looked really lean for Christmas, which was great I guess, but for the beach picks. But other than that, I've been at maintenance, and you know what? I feel amazing. I've been at the moment doing well in jujitsu. If I was dieting, I'd find that very hard to push when I'm getting strangled out by other dudes. My training's great. I've been very strong lately leading up to today and where I'm doing a strength programme, I'm pushing some impressive numbers for me, and I couldn't do that in a calorie deficit.
(36:49):
A calorie deficit is just where you lose body fat, and I just want you to look at that as that. It's not a lifestyle. It's not where we hang out. It's not where we, okay, I was on 1200 kilocalories, I'm just going to stay here. No, no, no, you don't stay there. You get to the body fat that you want to and then you maintain your weight or you increase your weight because body composition is cyclical. We go through stages. We lose body fat and then we either maintain or we increase muscle mass, which generally comes with a bit of body fat. We don't just hang out and lose body fat and just keep going. I need to lose more body fat and just do that. I need to lose more body fat and just do that. I need to lose more body fat and just do that. That's how you end up on 1200 calories for three years with low energy availability and your life's falling to shit. I'm sorry, that sounds really full on, but a lot of people end up there and I don't want you there.
(37:51):
How else do you prevent undereating? Set yourself some performance-based goals. Often when we start training, we have aesthetic based goals, how we look, we want to look a certain way. We want to have a certain amount of abs. We want to see a certain number of striations in our shoulders or our glutes when we tense in the mirror. But as we get more advanced, and even when people start off with me, they get access to a video that I've made called performance-based goals, and it encourages them to set some performance-based goals. Now what are they? They're goals where we are looking at performing, how much can you bench press? How much can you squat? How long can you plank for? How many pushups can you do? How high can you box? Jump? Think of ways that you can set goals that rely on performance, how you apply yourself as opposed to just what you look like.
(38:54):
Because if we set performance-based goals, it shifts our mind to do I have abs? What do I look like to what can I do? Am I getting stronger? Is my technique good? And when we think of performance-based goals, it just puts us in the right frame of mind to become an athlete. I'm not saying that bodybuilders aren't athletes because they are, but bodybuilding is ultimately a sport where you build as much muscle as possible, then you drop as much fat as possible. Then you stand on stage with fake tan and a G-string and get judged on how you look.
(39:34):
That can have very detrimental mental health impacts for some people. What I would recommend for most people that probably would never compete is just focus. Yes, we're always going to have this thing in the back of our mind of what do we look like? I get that. Alright, I'm not immune to that. I still care about what I look like when I see my body fat getting too high. I go, look, Brock, let's chill out on those three burgers tonight. Let's have two. But we need to focus on those performance based goals because they really help us shift our perspective away from just what we look like. And when we get obsessed with what we look like often that lends us to trying to get lean and then getting stuck in cyclical undereating.
(40:21):
How do you prevent it? You could also get a coach. I'm not trying to push my services here, although I am online personal trainer, that gives consistent advice to my clients when they may fall into the trap of consistent undereating and may not want to bump up their calories. I have to have the hard conversation with, Hey, you came to me on 1200 calories, not losing weight. Here's the solution. It's more calories. I know that's going to be hard. I know you may feel like your weight isn't going down. I know you may feel like you're bloated. You may feel like your pitches look worse. You may feel like you're not yourself, and you may struggle with this mentally and emotionally, but this place of higher calories is going to get you from low energy availability to having enough calories in your body to support your physical activity, to support the physiological functions that your body needs to undergo, to recover from the physical activity that you're doing.
(41:24):
And those are the hard conversations that I've had with so many clients. I'll be honest, I've had more with female clients than male, and I think ties back into the study that we read out earlier that kind of hinted to the fact that females can be more subject to this, but low calories forever is not the answer to getting lean. If you are already not getting lean and you're on low calories, it means that there's a problem that we need to address as opposed to, I'm not losing weight on 1200 calories, I'm going to go to a thousand. Because then when you stop losing weight on a thousand, you go, ha, I'm going to go to 800. That is such a low amount of calories to have for one day. I don't want you to be there. And that's why I encourage you to continue to ask yourself, should I keep dropping your calories or should I increase them or should I get a coach to help me get out of this? Because I just keep digging a deeper hole that I can't get out of. We also need to understand what maintenance calories are.
(42:31):
I literally had an email yesterday and today around a client who was like, Hey, I'm getting close to the body fat that I'm at, but I don't want, do I have to go to maintenance or to calorie surplus? If I want to build muscle, why can't I just increase my protein and go from there? Number one, that's not how it works unfortunately. But number two, maintenance is maintenance. It's what the word suggests. We maintain. We don't increase weight if are going from a calorie deficit to your maintenance calories and you gain weight, I'm sorry, but you've gone too far with your calories. And that's often what people do. They increase the amount of calories that they have by too much and they go out of their calorie deficit, straight to a surplus, and then they start gaining weight and then they put on weight and they go, oh, I don't like this maintenance steal.
(43:24):
I'm going to go back to a calorie deficit. I need to get lean again because I just put on body fat from going to maintenance. But what they actually did was they went to a calorie surplus and they consume too much. So what I want you to understand is maintenance calories is maintenance, and if you're gaining weight, you're not on your maintenance calories, you are on a calorie surplus. So keep that in mind. That can definitely help you in times of coming, man, this chair is really squeaky, not a good podcast chair. Anyway, moving forward, check it out. Can you hear that Anyway, understand that maintenance is maintenance and if you are gaining weight, you're eating too much, increase your knowledge. That's how you prevent undereating. Also, like I touched on earlier in the podcast, increase your knowledge under eating a calorie deficit should only be for a certain timeframe for you to get lean. Once you've achieved that body fat, you need to get out. You need to get, at minimum, get to maintenance and just sit there. Just sit there. Enjoy that extra 200, 300, 400, 500 calories that you have deserved. You've been on this calorie deficit for a while. Just may enjoy that extra, that extra sandwich that you can have, that extra bowl of muley and granola and milk. Enjoy it. Just make the most of it,
(44:55):
But increase your knowledge. The more you learn, the more you can begin to navigate this fat loss, muscle building, body transformation area. I study it every day, so I'm going to be light years ahead of where you're at potentially, if you're not a coach already or if you're not into the space of fitness. And it does take a while, but once you start understanding principles of the calorie deficit, of the calorie surplus, of what true maintenance is, of what your maintenance calories are made up of your TDEE, your B, it's your BMR, it's your meat levels, your eat levels, your thermic effect, the food, all these things. Once you start to understand it, it begins to make more sense. And then you can actually make better changes to your life to get the results that you want. So increasing your knowledge can definitely help you prevent that. I want to close this podcast just with a quote because I like quotes and I feel like every time I hear a good quote, I'm just like, man, that's a good quote. And I like it. And I have a list on my laptop and that also syncs up with my phone of quotes that I read, and I just like to read them every now and then.
(46:24):
Here's a great one. Here's a great one. You ready? You need to experience pain to understand what it feels like to be pain-free. And it might be quite a sombre note to end the podcast on, but I think it's encouraging because we all go through pain and we all have hard points in our life, whether that's in relationships, whether that's in our career, whether that's in our fitness journey when things get hard. But it's similar to the quote of there's no good without the bad. There's no pain-free without the pain.
(47:12):
There's no happiness without sadness. And I like this quote because it helps you realise that when things get tough, it's just part of it. And life isn't about avoiding hard times, but it's about going through them and conquering them and seeing what you can turn them into. I'm a big fan of that, and I think I'm a walking living example of that, and I hope that that quote helps you. I'm going to wrap up the podcast there. If you do have a spare couple of minutes or even 10 seconds, I'd love it if you could rate the podcast five stars. I'm not sure if you can leave a comment or not, but it helps out the podcast. If you're not already subscribed on YouTube, you can subscribe to the channel The Better. With Brock podcast, I moved it over from my fitness channel and I created its own podcast YouTube channel, because people that watch YouTube podcasts are different to people that watch my YouTube content. So that has a very low subscriber amount. So if you could subscribe to the Better with Brock podcast YouTube channel, that'd be awesome. If you could leave a review, that would be great. If you want any topics on the podcast that you want me to talk about, you can email them to me at team@teambrockashby.com. That's team@teambrockashby.com, or you can comment on YouTube. Yeah, that's it from me. If you want any online personal training programmes, tb.com as where you can find them, see you.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
How's it going mate? Brock Ashby here. Welcome to episode number 33 of the Better with Brock podcast. This is going to be a solo podcast, and I'm going to be talking over a few different topics. The main thing that I want to hit home is five weird or unspoken fat loss tips that no personal trainer has probably told you. They're not the classic. Do cardio or lift weights or eat less, create a calorie deficit. Most of you that have been following me for a while know that sort of stuff, so I want to hit it from a different angle and show you some things that you may never have thought of or even discovered. That's initially what I want to cover today. That's what we will be covering. Then I'm going to be diving through four questions that I got on my Instagram stories that I think deserve a bit of limelight and Instagram is a great place for sharing content, but it's quite hard to create a lot of context around answers to questions that actually need a bit more time than just a yes or no, or create a calorie deficit or get into a surplus or train your chest three times a week.
(01:15):
Sometimes questions that are asked need more time, and then you post them on Instagram with more time or more time spent answering the question, and then you kind of figure out that no one really cares, and I think it has to do with the platform that we go on and the sort of mindset that we have. For example, when you open up Spotify to go for a podcast and you're listening to this, you have that mindset of, okay, I'm going to give Brock 30 minutes, 40 minutes, or even one hour. But if you go onto TikTok, you go, okay, I'm giving this real or this video on TikTok three seconds or even two seconds before I decide if I'm out or not. And that's the struggles of shortform content. So that's why I like to bring some of the questions that I get in Shortform that people really want to know onto my podcast because it gives me time to unpack it and give you a answer that is nuance, that is truthful, that is interesting, that requires time instead of just a yes or no question. So we'll be doing four final questions. Then I want to read a passage before we go that I think is kind of explaining how many of us are living our lives, and I think we need to pivot from the trajectory that overall we are heading personally. So without further ado, let's get into it.
(02:42):
The first fat loss tip that you've never heard before is to chew your food more. The technical word for chewing is called mastication. Not to be confused, but the closely sounding word of you get it. And the reason that chewing your food more can help you to lose fat can be outlined from a study that I'm going to pull up. I'm sitting here in front of my laptop. If you're not watching this, you can watch it on YouTube so you can actually see me talking. I actually prefer to do that. I like to put it on YouTube, put it on a screen and just kind of get some work done, some admin, or just put it on a screen just because, well, from a creative's perspective, I like to do it to give them views because then that helps out their podcast. So if you want to help me out, watching on YouTube is often the best way to help someone out because that gives them views on YouTube, which is a positive thing.
(03:37):
Then I think more net positive than I listen on Spotify, but obviously do what's convenient for you. But I like watching on YouTube, so if you're not watching it and you're just listening, you can watch it if you want to. Okay, so there's a study effects of chewing on appetite, food intake and gut hormone. So there's a few things that do relate to what I'm saying, but I'm going to read the whole kind of structure of it and then you will get to understand why chewing does provide benefits for fat loss or weight management. So this is a systematic review and meta-analysis. The objective of the study, which was done in 2015, was to seek insights into the relationship between chewing appetite, food intake and gut hormones and to consider potentially useful recommendations to promote benefits of chewing for weight management. And ultimately what they did was skew a different number of papers, and this was 10 papers.
(04:44):
Here are the results. Five of 16 experiments found a significant effect of chewing on satiation. Satiation is ultimately just fullness how full you feel, and satiety is the same thing. So if a food is high in satiety, it is high in making you feel full ultimately. So five of the 16 experiments found a significant effect of chewing on satiation or satiety using self-reporting measures. So people reporting themselves feeling more full. 10 of 16 experiments found that chewing reduced food intake three of five studies showed that increasing the number of chews per bite increased relevant gut hormones. And two, linked this to subjective satiety. This meta-analysis found evidence of both publication bias and between study heterogeneity. La la analysis of the heterogeneity found a substantial effect of the fasting period where the duration of fasting influence the decrease in hunger due to chewing prolonged mastication. There goes that beautiful word again, significantly reduces self-reported hunger levels.
(05:59):
Conclusion, evidence currently suggests that chewing may decrease self-reported hunger and food intake possibly through alterations in gut hormone responses related to satiety. Although preliminary, the results identify and need for additional research in the area focused uniform experimental designs are required to clearly understand the relationships that exist between mastication, appetite, satiety, food intake, and ultimately body weight. So that's just one example. There is another example, and I can put the studies that I'm referring to in the show notes, so you can check them out if you want to, but I'm just ultimately trying to just pretty much back up what I say. So another study in 2013, the title is increasing. The number of maat cycles or chewing is associated with reduced appetite and altered gut postprandial plasma concentrations of gut hormones, insulin and glucose. Okay, so check this out. So once again, it's not just talking about how full you feel on a diet, but if chewing does help you to feel more full on a diet, it's going to be a net positive to determine the influence of masticate efficiency or chewing on postprandial satiety.
(07:16):
So postprandial is just like after the meal, how full do you feel after the meal? In glycemic response, 21 healthy males were recruited for this randomised crossover trial. The participants consumed a fixed amount of pizza provided in equal size portions by chewing each portion either 15 or 40 times before swallowing. Subjective appetite was measured by appetite questionnaires at regular intervals for three hours after the meal, and plasma samples were collected for the measurement of selected satiety related hormones, la, la, la, la. This is other stuff that isn't necessarily tied up to directly to satiety. An ad limiting meal was provided shortly after the last blood sample was drawn and the amount eaten recorded compared with 15 chews. Here's the juicy part of the story, compared with 15 chews, chewing 40 times proportion resulted in lower hunger preoccupation with food and desire to eat.
(08:21):
And then it kind of talks about, okay, I'll read this out because it kind of applies chewing 40 times before swallowing also resulted in a higher plasma kinin concentration. Don't really know what that means and a trend towards a lower ghrelin concentration. Okay, so ghrelin is your hunger hormone. So if you're going to have a lower concentration of this hunger hormone, you're going to be less hungry. However, food intake at the subsequent test meal did not differ. The results suggested a higher number of sated or chewing before swallowing may provide beneficial effects on satiety and facilitate glucose absorption. Alright, so ultimately if you chew your food more, you are going to be able to feel more full. And that is the art of dieting. Really, if you look at a diet, what you're doing is you are a caloric diet, right? Sorry, a caloric deficit diet where we're eating in an energy deficit to lose body fat.
(09:29):
These are fat loss tips you've never been told before. So if you're in a calorie deficit, you are consuming less calories than your body needs to maintain your weight. So since you're at an energy deficit, we have to try our best to feel as full as possible because no matter what we eat, we are going to be at an energy deficit. So we just need to fight that off. And feeling full is a major one. There are other things we can do to feel full, which I'll be talking about next. One more thing that I really want to hit the head on, hit the nail on the head on, sorry. But chewing your food more sounds ridiculous, but it actually works. So what I think this means on a practical perspective, it could mean, okay, let's chew our food more. Okay, that's obviously the practical takeaway.
(10:24):
So instead of just sitting there and trying shovelling food in our mouth like I do, because I'm a busy person and most busy people do busy parents, busy people at work, people with busy careers, what they're doing is kind of squeezing in tiny lunch breaks that used to be one hour down to like 15 minutes and probably still working through them. I do that. I'll sit in my yoghourt bowl in front of me, I'll be banging out emails or writing programmes and I'll be eating while I'm going. I'm not thinking about chewing, but I guess if we, to coin the term mindful eating, if we start to mindfully eat and we chew our food more, it does help us have a more pleasurable experience when we are eating, and it also helps us to feel more full. And I think one of the big reasons would also have to be that it slows you down.
(11:13):
And the longer you take to finish a meal, the more time your brain will have time to say to yourself, Hey mate, I think you're done. I think you're full. But if you just keep shovelling your food and you can eat a lot of food, just like if you go to a buffet and all you can eat a smorgasbord, as we used to say back in New Zealand, I haven't really heard that here in Australia, but if you're just smashing food back to back to back, it's easier to squeeze it all in. But if you had a meal and then chilled for 10 minutes and got another meal chilled for 10 minutes, you might get three plates and some dessert. But if you're just shovelling it, I've easily had five plates of mains and then dessert, which is a couple of plates because I've been hammering it in my body, hasn't had time to say, Hey mate, you need to just chill out.
(12:05):
You are smashing too many plates of food and I'm full. And then I would feel sick after and I wouldn't be able to sit up straight. I'd have to lie down in the car for ages. I remember the last time I went to, or not the last time I went to a buffet, but the most memorable time, my friend from jazz school, Daniel Hitchens, who's still a great friend who lives in Christchurch, he's an absolute beast on guitar. He challenged me to a eating contest and I was probably around 75 kilos at the time. I was a really small guy. I was dieting and I was really lean and didn't really know what I was doing, and I think I was just starving myself. And he was probably around a hundred kilos, maybe a little bit more. So he had a lot of weight on me, but I challenged him and I did that.
(12:48):
I ate as fast as possible, ate as fast as possible, obviously not chewing to try and not get as full as I could, but I got smashed and he smashed me. He could just eat a lot. And then I felt so sick because I was eating faster than my brain was signalling to tell me to stop. So there could be this practical perspective of chewing your food more and taking your time when you're eating mindfully. Eating chewing more can also, as I said, help food be more enjoyable because you're taking all the textures in, you're taking all of the tastes in. But I think one of the other things when you are kind of chewing your food more is that you, I kind of lost my train of thought. What was I going to say?
(13:40):
It was the time thing. If you're chewing your food, you're eating solid food. If you're not chewing your food, and if you're drinking like smoothies, juices, protein shakes, these things are not filling. And I think with our lifestyles these days, as I was touching on before, we're so busy, we often reach for things that are convenient, like protein shakes in a vending machine at the end of the gym when we walk out or a few of my clients have these protein waters, they're not going to fill you up. And there's many reasons, but you're not chewing it, right? So you're not getting a chance to really break food down. There's no fibre to it. There's no real, oh man, I just had like 120 calories, 150 calories. Whereas if you were to eat 150 calories of broccoli, that would be five cups. That's a lot of chewing, that's a lot of fibre, that's a lot of food that's going down into your digestive system.
(14:43):
But if you just drink, it's really easy to just consume a lot of calories. So chewing your food is going to help you to full on a diet, which is one of the major things that stop people from succeeding in their diet or bingeing because they feel so deprived and then they compromise and make up for that and exceed their calories. So chew your food more, eat more food as opposed to drinking your calories. That's point number one. Point number two, fat loss tips you've never been told before is to consume more fibre and more accurately 15 grammes of fibre per 1000 calories. So if you are on 1500 calories, that's going to be 22.5 grammes of fibre. And this is just approximate. You don't have to eat exactly that number, but this is a good number to strive for and this is what I recommend people to eat in my team, bro, Pete programmes.
(15:43):
So let me jump into the fibre study that I want to look at, which was done in 2008. I'm just reading abstracts. If you want to read the studies once again, you can. Okay. It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that the public should consume adequate amounts of dietary fibre from a variety of plant foods. There's most fibre that comes from plant foods as opposed to there's not much fibre in meat and eggs and things such as this, like milk yoghourt. It's mainly plants. Populations that consume more dietary fibre have less chronic disease. In addition, intake of dietary fibre has beneficial effects on risk factors for developing several chronic diseases. Dietary reference intakes recommend consumption of 14 grammes of dietary fibre per 1000 calories or 25 grammes for adult women and 38 grammes for adult men based on epidemiologic epidemiologic studies showing protection against cardiovascular disease, appropriate kinds and amount of dietary fibre for children.
(16:55):
The critically ill and the very old are unknown fair play. The dietary reference intakes for fibre are based on recommended energy intakes. So these are based on, you know how sometimes you go to the grocery store and they say their average recommendation is 2,500 calories for the average male. That's what they're basing their things on. But this is obviously going to be in America, the dietary reference based on recommended energy intake, not clinical fibre studies. Usual intake of dietary fibre in the United States is only 15 grammes per day. So if we were following this guideline, it would only be as if enough fibre for them to eat 1000 calories per day. And we all know not many people are eating 1000 calories per day by choice, although so solubility of fibre was thought to determine physiological effect. More recent studies suggest other properties of fibre, perhaps firm inability or viscosity are important parameters.
(17:51):
High fibre diets provide bulk are more satiating. There we go. More filling and have been linked to lower body weights. Evidence that fibre decreases cancer is mixed and further research is needed. Yeah, that's a big claim. Healthy children and adults can achieve adequate dietary fibre intake by increasing variety in daily food patterns. The dietary messages to increase consumption of high fibre foods such as whole grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables should be broadly supported by food and nutrition professionals. Consumers are also turning to fibre supplements and bulk laxatives as additional fibre sources. Few fibre supplements have been studied for physiological effectiveness. So the best advice is to consume fibre in foods. Look for physiological studies of effectiveness before selecting functional fibres in dietetics practise. So this is a big one. The best advice is to consume fibre in foods. There is a tonne of podcasters and even influencers pushing things like athletic greens and different supplement foods, different fibre foods, sorry, different supplements, but I've always said this, it's better to eat whole foods and there is a unique population where fibre can actually cause more gut problems and more bloating than benefits, but that is a rare case.
(19:09):
Most people would benefit from consuming more fibre. Like in general, we can fairly say that the world is becoming more obese, and I think that if we are consuming more fibre, that's going to help limit our calorie intake because we're going to feel more full. If we are consuming foods that are low in fibre, then we're probably going to eat more calories. And that may be why with America only having 15 grammes of fibre per day while they're overeating and why they are, I think they're like 40% of their population is obese.
(19:50):
Yeah, I'll stop there. There was one more statistic I'd say, but that's a big question mark, but I think at least 40% of their population is obese. That's no good. Their fibre is very low, and maybe if they doubled that or even tripled their fibre target or hit their 15 grammes of fibre per 1000 calories, they could limit their intake because it's very, very easy to overeat, especially when you're drinking things like milkshakes and cokes and juices. Even if you think you're drinking healthy foods or doing well, sure you are, but try to eat as much food as possible because that's going to help. It's going to be self-limiting going to stop you from overeating. If you drink an apple juice, you can smash that easy, but to eat an apple, it takes time. You have to chew more and there's more fibre to it, so you're not going to eat as much.
(20:46):
So if you are looking lose fat, increasing your fibre would be a great one if you're not already eating enough, which once again is 15 grammes of fibre per 1000 calories. Point number three, take the stairs, not the elevator. We have something called our neat levels, which then NEAT, which stands for non-planned exercise activity thermogenesis. And that is as simple as the title suggests, the portion of exercise that we don't plan. So that is just walking around the house. Maybe you're doing the vacuuming, maybe you're doing the dishes, maybe you're putting the kids down, maybe you're playing with the kids, maybe you are just going for a stroll with your wife. That kind of sounds intentional, but it's just kind of the amount of exercise that you're doing without focusing them on. Okay, this is my training. And then we have things called our eat levels, which is exercise activity thermogenesis, which is your planned exercise.
(21:45):
So when we look at the amount of calories that we burn in a day, around 60% of that comes from our BMR or our basal metabolic rate. That's about around 60%. And our basal metabolic rate is ultimately how many calories we would burn if we were in a coma in hospital or if we were asleep. It's literally just keeping us alive. That's 60% of what we burn throughout the day, and that's dictated by our sex, by our height, by our weight, and by our age. So those are relatively fixed, which is quite hard to say in this day and age that your sex is fixed, but that's the way your BMR works.
(22:27):
And then we have our neat level, which is responsible for around 15 to 20% of how many calories we burn throughout the day. And then we have something called the thermic effect of food, which is potentially around 10%, five to 10%. And then we have our eat levels, which is our training. So ultimately we kind of have four, and that training is around five to 10% as well. So our BMS fixed. We can't really change that unless we gain weight or lose weight. We're not really going to be becoming taller or less taller or shorter, and we're not really going to change our biological sex from male to female. I'm saying biological because that's what you were born as your biological born sex, if that makes sense. You can't really change that regardless if you transition or not. So these are relatively fixed, but the things that we can change are our neat levels and our eat levels, but our neat levels are responsible for around 15 to 20% because when you think about your neat levels, your non-planned exercise, it's how much you are walking around throughout the day, and we walk around a lot more.
(23:36):
We fidget, we move our head, we scratch our head a lot more than we work out even if we worked out every day. That's only for around about an hour a day if you're training every day for an hour. But when you think about when you wake up, you are doing a tonne of things. Even if you're just at the office and work, you are making a coffee, you are walking back and forth to your office, you're walking to the train station and you're sitting on the train or standing on the train, and then you're walking from the train station to work. You're doing whatever you do at work, you get up, you go for a piss, you come back. These sorts of things are called your neat levels. And why this third point is take the stairs, not the elevator, is because the more we can move in our day-to-day life, the more we can increase how many calories we are burning throughout the day, which is going to help us create that calorie deficit to lose fat.
(24:28):
So try to get your neat levels up. Ultimately look for opportunities to increase them. So for example, here's something that my wife and I do. Instead of jumping in the car and going down to the grocery store, we'll walk. It's a 10 minute walk, okay, we could make that two minutes if we drove and it'll be a much faster trip. But if you want to increase your physical activity, if you want to increase your needs level, you have to inconvenience yourself. And yes, you may sacrifice efficiency or time, but what you're doing is prioritising your physical activity and your needs levels, which pours into not only helping you lose fat if that is your goal, but also building your metabolism. So I want you to think about that. How can you do that in your life? Can you get off a bus? Stop early and walk?
(25:23):
Another example of what my wife used to do when she was working, she would instead of there's a bus stop right outside our apartment, she could have slept in an extra 30 minutes, got out of the door and waited for the bus and caught it and gone straight into work. But what she did was walk for 30 minutes pretty much alongside the bus route because that's the only way to walk. And then she'd catch the bus and she'd be on there for like five minutes and then she'd get there instead of being on the bus for 10 minutes. So she'd sacrifice that 30 minute sleep to walk more because she always felt better at work if she was walking. And I'm not saying that you have to do that, but these are ways that we can try and look at our life to inconvenience ourself time-wise, but prioritise ourself physically.
(26:14):
Another example is I used to walk to the gym when I was a face-to-face personal trainer sometimes. So instead of waking up at five 30, I would wake up at 4 45 and just leave straight away, and it'd take me an hour to walk into the gym to the city, and I'd walk from 4 45 to 5 45 and then have my first client at six instead of catching an Uber or catching the bus or driving. Now, that was inconvenient. But what I would do is I would answer my Instagram stories, my Instagram dms, I would write captions, I would post on social media. I tried to make it more productive for me as opposed to just walking, which there's nothing wrong with, but I just also needed to do things while I was awake to get some done. So there are ways, sure, you're inconvenient to yourself, but there are ways for you to try and get stuff done if you want to or else you can listen to music.
(27:08):
You can call friends. But taking the stairs, not the elevator, making that a rule for yourself is a big one. I always do that. I always try to look for stairs as opposed to the elevator with the team, Brock Ashby, I want to call it the team Brock Ashby Body Quarters. If you're watching this on YouTube, comment below, see if you like it. There's the headquarters, which everyone does. But I want to do body quarters because I'm trying to transform bodies in there anyway, so when I get to the team, Brock Ashby, body Quarters, you can't take the stairs up. So I take the elevator, but I can take the stairs down. So I take the stairs down always. That's a small thing, but over the two or three years that I'm there, that's slowly going to add up. And ultimately what you're trying to do is change your identity because when you change your identity, it's much easier to change your habits.
(27:59):
So if you are not a person that prioritises physical activity, but you want to be, it's not just as simple as, okay, I just do it. You have to actually really convince yourself that your identity is changing. And you are a person that seeks out physical activity as opposed to just standing still in an elevator. You want to walk upstairs. And the same thing goes like when you're on an escalator, this kind of grinds my gears. You're walking, you're walking, you're walking, and the escalator takes you up, but you can still walk, whether it's flat or there's steps on the escalator, you can still walk while you're on the escalator, but people just, I don't think people have thought about it, but you can still walk just because the ground is moving underneath you. So I'll challenge you next time you get on the escalator, just keep walking.
(28:48):
So instead of walking to it and stopping and then getting off and then going, oh, that was cool, you can get there even faster. You can keep walking on the escalator. It's possible. So try to change their identity. Become a person that walks even when you're on an escalator that takes the stairs, even when you can take an elevator that takes the early bus stop instead of the late bus stop. That's right outside of the destination that you're going be the person that calls a meeting walking around the park as opposed to sitting around a boardroom table. These small changes will make a big difference. Point number four is to hide your cardio. Hiding your cardio I think is one of the biggest hacks that you can do. Most people don't actually enjoy cardio. And I'll put my hand up to say that there were times in my life where I loved cardio, but that was because I hadn't met weight training yet at high school.
(29:49):
I loved doing the cross country. I love anything competitive. So if you want to race me, I'll race you. So I loved it. I loved cross country at primary school and at intermediate school. But when I got to high school and I started lifting weights that love dissipated, and I started to fall in love with weight training, and that's what I enjoy. And I realised this is actually what my body is better at. I'm made, I have a lot of type two muscle fibres. I'm a very explosive kind of fast person. And when I was doing cross country, I was good at it because I practised it a lot. But when I settled into weights, I really started flourishing with my physique, I believe with my performance and with my aesthetics.
(30:34):
So I don't enjoy cardio, but cardio is a good way to help to increase your calorie expenditure throughout the day. And if you go back to 0.3, what I was saying, cardio is planned exercise. So it increases your eat levels. So if you are to do cardio, try to hide it. And I think this is the best thing, kind of tricking yourself into doing something that you don't want to do. The classic example is I've been doing jujitsu for just over a year and a half, and I hate cardio, but I love jiujitsu. It's so fun. And the truth is I can roll for 90 minutes and be absolutely gassed and not even be aware that I just did 90 minutes of interval training. So around about three weeks ago, we did a class where we'd rolled, and if you don't dunno what rolling is in jujitsu, it's kind of like sparring and boxing, like you're with a partner and you're doing jujitsu.
(31:36):
And we would do it for, I think it was five minutes, and then we'd have one minute or one minute and a half rest, and then you go back and you roll with someone else. And in that five minutes, six minutes that you're rolling with someone, it's pretty intense. It's not cardio. Cardio, you're not sprinting, it are scrambling. You are crunching side to side. You're changing positions from side control to mount, or you're going from half guard, then you're going into leg attacks, or then you'll stand up and you'll start doing wrestling and takedowns doing that for five to six minutes. It's pretty gassing. And then you only get a minute to 90 seconds off. And then you go back and you do it with someone else. And this next person could be huge, they could be massive. And then the next person might be small, and then the next person, you might be rolling with a girl, and then you might be rolling with someone that's like a black belt, like the professor's rolling with you.
(32:28):
So you're getting all these kind of different tastes and it's like interval training. But if you zoom out, I'm doing cardio, I'm huffing, I'm puffing, I'm sweating, I'm drenched in sweat, I don't even know if it's mine. And I'm doing 90 minutes of intervals. I've hid my cardio. So I'm getting the benefits of cardio and the benefits of loving jiu-jitsu. And if I was to think about it, I'm boosting my metabolism because I'm increasing the amounts of calories that I burn throughout the day and I'm also getting stuff done. Health wise, cardio wise, I think the biggest points I could make around this would just to be try and find a sport that you enjoy. And it could be jiujitsu. I was introduced to Jiujitsu by a few people that I followed. Jordan sct, James Smith, Darren Cartel, they do it all. And then Joe Rogan was talking about it a lot.
(33:27):
And then I just had a few friends that had started doing it. I didn't even know that did it. And I gave it a go because I used to play rugby and I used to play a lot of sports growing up. And even though weights or bodybuilding or training in the gym kind of feels like you're doing a sport, you're not. You're just bodybuilding. You're just lifting weights, you're just competing with yourself. But I really like competing against others, and it also gave me a social circle to hang out with people and make new friends, which is difficult as you get older, but especially as you work for yourself and you're kind of self-employed and you're doing your thing and you're grinding, you have employees and you have people that work around you and you have your friends that you've had for a while. But other than that, I wasn't really mixing with other people.
(34:10):
So there was other benefits too, but I don't want to stray too far from the point. Hiding your cardio is a great way to do it. It's quite popular in America to play pickleball at the moment. A lot of people are doing that. You could take up boxing, you could hide your cardio by doing cardio with friends, go for a run with them. You can go for a run with someone and you can still talk like you're cruising. You're not massively pushing yourself crazily, but you are able to get your cardio in while catching up with a friend. That is a great way to do it. Or you could hike through nature. So you are looking around, you are taking in things, but you're still hiding your cardio, you're still getting it done. And if you love cardio, you can just do it a hundred percent.
(34:56):
But this is for people that aren't necessarily cardio fans like myself. So that's point number four. The last point that I want to say is a pretty basic one that you probably already know, lift weights. But I want to jump into a study that is encouraging around lifting weights. So this study was done in 2009, and it's a meta-analysis, long-term effectiveness of diet plus exercise interventions verse diet only interventions for weight loss, a meta-analysis. Okay, so I'm going to just read out the abstract to you guys so you can digest it. Diet and exercise are two of the commonest strategies to reduce weight. Whether a diet plus exercise intervention is more effective for weight loss than a diet only intervention in the long-term has not been conclusively established. The objective of this study was to systematically review the effect of diet plus exercise versus diet only on the both long-term and short-term weight loss studies were retrieved by la la studies were included if they were randomised control trials comparing the effect of diet plus exercise interventions versus diet only on weight loss for a minimum of six months among obese or overweight adults.
(36:16):
18 studies met the inclusion criteria. We found that the overall standardised mean differences between diet plus exercise and diet only interventions at the end. Follow-up were minus 0.25 blah because there were two outcome measurements, weight and body mass index. We also stratified the results by weight and BMI outcome, the pooled weight loss was 1.14 kg or 0.5 kg greater for the diet plus exercise group than the diet only group. Okay, so the average was 1.1 kg for diet plus exercise and diet only was 0.5, so half a kilo. We did not detect significant heterogeneity in either St Stratum even in studies lasting two years or longer. Diet plus exercise interventions provide significantly greater weight loss than diet only interventions. In summary, a combined Diet plus exercise programme provided greater longer term weight loss than a diet only programme. However, both diet only and diet plus exercise programmes are associated with partial weight regain. And future studies should explore better strategies to limit weight, regain and achieve greater long-term weight loss.
(37:38):
So ultimately, diet plus exercise, if you look at it like this, if you're just doing diet and you're trying to lose fat, you have one thing to utilise and that's eating less, eating less calories, which is how you would lose weight if you're not losing weight already. If you eat less calories. So you're already doing the diet and then you add an exercise which is burning more calories, that's going to help you create a larger deficit. So this is the simple way of looking at it. But then within that exercise, we are looking at awesome things like weight training to help preserve muscle mass, and even interval training can help prevent muscle mass as well. So there's another study that I want to just quickly read. It's a meta-analysis, once again, diet, exercise or diet with exercise, comparing the diet, exercise or diet with exercise, comparing the effectiveness of treatment options for weight loss and changes in fitness for adults 18 to 65 years old who are over fat, obese, systematic review. Yeah, I don't want to read everything out like I have been doing, but let me just get to the nitty gritty of it. Okay,
Brock Ashby (39:18):
Where should we go from?
Brock Ashby (39:21):
First, hyper caloric balance is necessary for changing body composition, so creating a calorie deficit, changing the way your body looks, but the compositional changes like how much fat and how much muscle you have, or any biomarkers associated with metabolic issues with analysis showing that there is a necessity to include exercise in combination with diet, effectively illicit changes in body composition and biomarkers of metabolic issues. More importantly, the combination resistance training and dieting was more effective than endurance training or combination of resistance training and endurance training, particularly when progressive training volume of two to three sets for six to 10 reps at an intensity of 75% of one rep max or higher, utilising whole body and free weight exercises at altering body compositional measures and reducing total cholesterol, triglycerides and low density. So ultimately what they're saying is dieting and resistance training was the best outcome. Additionally, resistance training was more effective at reducing fasting insulin levels than endurance training or endurance training and resistance training, even though generally lower effect size than resistance training, the inclusion of endurance training was more effective. So resistance training ultimately one, but the inclusion of endurance training was more effective when it was performed at high intensity. Example, something greater than 70% of your VO two max or in an interval training style when utilising the relatively common prescribed method of low to moderate steady state method.
(41:10):
Yeah, cool. Thus indicating that focus of treatment should be on producing a large metabolic stress as induced by resistance training or high levels of endurance training rather than an energetic imbalance for adults who are over fat. Okay, so ultimately what we're looking at here is some evidence that's showing that lifting weights and exercise, sorry, lifting weights and dieting is the most effective way to sustain weight loss and prevent, maybe not prevent weight regain, but kind of weight management to maintain weight. But then they were also saying, if you want favourable compositional changes, change in your body, composition resistance training is going to help that. And ultimately that's because if you're lifting weights and in a calorie deficit, you're going to give your muscles a stimulus to stick around and a reason for your body fat to leave.
(42:09):
Excuse me. So those are your five takeaways, right? Point number five, lifting weights is pretty obvious, but I wanted to show you that lifting weights and jumping in a calorie drifter is the best way to make favourable body composition changes or aesthetics to look awesome, pretty much because if we just diet and we're not lifting weight, we can lose weight. But losing weight is different to losing fat. If we lose weight, it's a combination of fat and muscle. But if we are lifting weights heavily close enough to failure, then we're going to be able to just lose body fat and maintain muscle, which is what's going to help us look shredded or lean or toned, whatever words you want to use. So these are your five points. And just to summarise it, point number one is to chew your food more. Point number two is to consume 15 grammes of fibre per 1000 calories.
(43:05):
Point number three, take the stairs, not the elevator, increase your neat levels and identify as a person that moves, really work on changing their identity. Number four, hide your cardio. Number five, lift weights. Now I want to jump into these four final questions from my Instagram stories, and then I'm going to close out. So here's one, do you use any wearable fitness trackers? Do you think they're reliable? And what are your thoughts on fitness trackers and which do you prefer? So I use a Fitbit for only two reasons. One, actually three if I'm going to be honest. One is to measure my steps. Two is to measure my sleep, and three is to use it as an alarm. And this is a hack if you have a wife or a husband or a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a child that you don't want to wake up using it as an alarm anyway.
(43:58):
So point number one, the accuracy is not amazing with fitness trackers in terms of how many calories that you burn. So if you burn X amount of calories per day, your Fitbit's probably going to get that wrong by quite a large degree, but it's relatively accurate in measuring your steps, and it's a consistent thing. So even if it's slightly off with your steps, at least you are consistent and you have this consistent inaccuracy, if that makes sense. So even if your Fitbit says you do 11,000, when you only do 10,000 steps at least it's only a 1000 step discrepancy. So I do use a Fitbit. I have the Fitbit since if you're on YouTube you can see it. So this is it here. It's kind of like an Apple Watch. But I got an Apple Watch. And to be honest, it was really annoying because I hated Instagram notifications going off.
(44:59):
I hated emails coming in, text messages coming in on my Apple Watch, and I know you could turn it off, but I was given an Apple watch and for free buy Apple as a personal trainer that was working at Fitness First. And I sold it because I just wasn't a fan of it. But the Fitbit has been doing well. I'm interested in trying the Whoop, but the only downside to that is it doesn't track steps. And I do like tracking steps because it's a good target to know that I want to hit 10,000 per day or maybe 12 or 15, depending on where my goals are at. It tracks my sleep, which is great. I know if I've slept well or not, but it also just gives me an idea of how wakeful I am and my sleep. I think I'm awake quite a lot, but I can't remember.
(45:49):
So that helps me to understand if I'm actually asleep or not. But I do move a lot of my sleep, so sometimes I wonder if I was actually asleep, but they think I'm awake because I'm moving so much. And lastly, it's such a hack. If you have an alarm, if I was to have an alarm clock, I'd wake up my daughter and I'd wake up my wife every time I left early in the morning. But since I have my Fitbit sent to set an alarm on my watch, it just vibrates and wakes me up. It's quiet. I wake up, I get out of the bed, I leave the room, and then I'm out. Haven't woken up anyone. So I think it's a hack for if you want to get out of the bed silently. That's just a side note. So that's why I like it. I do have to put on three consecutive alarms because there's been many times where even just this thing vibrating on my wrist, crazily doesn't wake me up. I'm just so tired sometimes. So something to be aware of.
(46:45):
Do I think they're reliable? To a degree? I don't think they're perfect, but as I said, if something is inaccurate, at least it's going to be consistently inaccurate. So you can use that to your advantage. Your thoughts on fitness tracking and which do you prefer? I can only speak for Fitbit because I've had them not a fan of ever watch just because they annoy me too much and I'm interested in trying out the whoop because I want to wear it while I'm doing jujitsu because, so the thing is with my watch, I can't wear that while I'm rolling because it's on my wrist, which we use a lot in our jiujitsu. But with the whoop, you can put it around your bicep or you can put it in your underwear, I think by your leg, which would be good to measure that because I absolutely flogged myself in jiu-jitsu and I go really hard, but I don't know what the steps are or how many calories I burned or all these things, which I'm actually interested in seeing. Second question, should you train two days in a row when you are sore or better to take the day off?
(47:45):
If you are sore, you can still go to the gym the next day, but you just need to train a different muscle group. I think the people that ask this question are doing too many exercises or workouts that are hitting the same muscle group. So if they're sore, they're like, oh, that's me, I'm done. But if you were to, let's just say, have a simple upper body day, lower day, upper body day, lower day, upper body day split three, upper two lower. If your upper body was absolutely crushed, you could still go into the gym and do your legs so you can train the next day. You don't have to take that off because your upper body's not really affected when you're training your lower body. And then while you're training your lower body, your upper body's going to be recovering, so then the next day you could probably do your upper body, and then while your legs are recovering that day, you could do legs the next day.
(48:36):
When I explain it like this, it sounds quite common sense driven, but if you don't really understand programming, this might be a foreign concept, so you can train the next day. You just have to have a structure of programming that will allow you to train when you're sore. The same way could go if you're doing a push day and your chest and your triceps and your shoulders were sore, you could go into the gym the next day and train, pull day and do your back and your biceps because they were not the primary movers of the previous workout. And then even if your push day muscles were still sore a couple days later and your pull day muscles were sore from the previous day, you could do lower body that next day. And that's how push pull lower split works, you're able to recover the next time you take on that muscle group.
(49:27):
So that's something I want you to think about. Number four, ideal post gym snack. That's not a protein shake post gym snack. I like yoghourt pouches. I think they're pretty convenient. They're a great source of protein. There's not much fat. You kind of want a relatively low fat meal after the gym so that the fat doesn't slow down the absorption of the nutrients whilst you're consuming that meal. You want to get protein in for sure. So post gym, post-workout, you want to have a high protein source. So if it's not a protein shake, you could have, like I said, a yoghourt pouch. You could have a normal meal, you could have chicken and rice, you could have beef and rice, you could have pork and rice, you could have pasta. You can pretty much have anything but snack wise, you could have beef jerky as well. That's a good one, that look, you could have eggs, but then they have high fat content. So maybe egg whites if you just want to get in, those are great options. You could have tuna and rice. That's another simple great bodybuilder option. But relatively, you want to keep fat relatively low.
(50:43):
But ultimately, look, there's no perfect gym snack. There's no perfect whatever. There's no perfect diet. There's no perfect food that you have after you work out. You just do what works for you with your calories and macros and your taste profile, what you enjoy eating. So it could literally be anything, but don't be afraid to have a meal. Some people think that, oh, they shouldn't have a meal after they workout. It has to be something like a protein shake or something small and quick like a yoghourt. But you can sit down and just have a decent meal. You could have vegetables, pasta, and beef. You could have a chicken sandwich. You could do literally whatever you want. My only advice is to keep fat relatively low and space that out away from your workouts course. Question number four, I drink Coke and Red Bull, and I'm thinking of replacing it with caffeine tablets. What are your thoughts?
(51:34):
My first thought is to go from Coke to Coke Zero Red Bull to Red Bull Zero, because that will give you extra calories that you can eat with. And if I tie that back into the first point where I'm saying chew your food more, if you are having a standard Coke, which is, I don't know how many calories, let's say it's 200 or 150, that's 150 you can utilise towards eating food. If you replace that Coke with a Coke Zero, same with Red Bull. And if you're thinking of replacing them with caffeine tablets because you think it's more healthful, then I can get behind that. But if you crave the taste of Red Bull and Coke and you really enjoy it that way, then I'd recommend going to the zero options with lower calories, with caffeine tablets. I've never tried them, but I'd rather have a coffee.
(52:32):
But that's up to you. I've stopped taking pre-workout. I used to smash it a lot. I had one bad experience, and that was the last time I had it. I literally lost my vision and I couldn't see straight, so I had to stop training halfway through, and then I had to go to sleep because I felt terrible. I felt like I wanted to spew as well. Someone gave me a new pre-workout that they had, and it just didn't sit right with me. I was literally smashed. I had to sleep and sit down because my legs went numb as well. So it was not a good experience. And from then I'm being like, look, I just don't want to do anything like that. I'll just rather have a black coffee where I know what's in it. It's coffee and caffeine, so if you want to replace it with caffeine tablets, that's your choice.
(53:15):
If you can't live without a Coke or a Red Bull, then you could have it and work around it. Personally, I think getting away from drinking full Coke and Full Red Bull is a great idea. And pursuing the Coke Zero and Red Bull zero options. So those are the questions that I wanted to answer from my stories q and a. And so the Weekend released a new song this week with Playboy, Cardi, and Madonna, and it's called Popular. I absolutely love it. It's a jam. It reminds me of the old school, Pharrell, kind of Justin Timberlake vibe sin. But I think the lyrics really tell a story of where we're at. And I want to close with this because I spend a lot of time on social media. Everyone else's screen time seems to be going up, but I feel like this is the way that we are living.
(54:08):
So I'm just going to read up to the end of the first chorus. Here we go. Popular lyrics by the weekend, play Boy Card. Madonna, tell me, do you see her? She's living her life, even if she acts like she don't want the limelight, but if you know her, she lives a lie. She calls the paparazzi, then she acts surprised. I know what she needs. She just want the fame. I know what she fiends give her a little taste running back to me, put it in her veins, pray her salt, keep every night she prays that the sky flashing lights is all she ever wants to see. Begging on her needs to be popular. That's her dream to be popular. Kill anyone to be popular, sell her soul to be popular, just to be popular. Everybody scream because she popular, she mainstream because she popular. Never be free because she popular.
(55:00):
And I think that just really sums up what people are prioritising these days. Not everyone, but I think a growing population. And now as a father, these things start to become more concerning for me because I'm introducing my daughter into the world, and as she gets older, she's going to start really, what's the word? Contributing to society as a person. And I think one of the most thought out careers in America was to be an influencer. And I think instead of trying to be an influencer, we should be trying to do things that influence people, if that makes sense. So instead of just solely being like, I want to influence people, it's like, okay, cool, you want to influence people, but what do you want to influence people with? Do you just want to be famous for fame's sake, for doing pranks or for getting your boobs out or la, la, whatever? Or do you want to do things that are so impactful that it influences people in that way? You can look at the Joe Rogan podcast like that. You can look at Jordan Peterson like that. And there's other people that are creating good examples. They just came to the top of my head because there are people I admire.
(56:39):
I just think that I don't want people to be pursuing influence. We should be pursuing things that can help influence people in a positive way. But I feel like this line hit me. I was like, well, such great songwriting. She calls the paparazzi, then she acts surprised. It's like, I've actually known people that have done that. It's crazy. They act all surprised, and they get these photos and they repost them, and it's like they're paying people to be there. It's crazy. But anyway, I don't think we should be trying to seek out the limelight. And I know, I guess being well-known or having people look at you and give you attention, stuff is nice from a human perspective that makes us all feel great. But I feel like if we're known for something, it gives us a bit more credibility than just being someone that is famous for fame's sake.
(57:36):
And I feel like, once again, as a father, as a man who's putting his daughter out in the world, I really want her to pursue doing what she enjoys and contributing to society in a great way through whatever she wants to do that with or buy. I really like anyone, my daughter, my family, my friends, I would rather them pursue something because they love it, because it leaves a good feeling in people's hearts because it helps people as opposed to, oh, people look at me, or I've got eyes on me. And that's why social media is becoming crazy. It's like, man, I made this TikTok video the other day. It's just getting edited at the moment.
(58:28):
This girl posted, lose five kilos in one week, and then she posted a workout after that. But at the start it was like, lose five kilos in one week. And then she did all these random exercises like burpees and lunges and whatever. And then in the caption it was obviously, it was like, save this brutal workout, la la, la, la, la fire emoji. And then she said, obviously, you can't lose five kg in one week. You have to be patient, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, what are you doing? You're literally contradicting yourself, but you're just doing that to get views. It's like you just want to be seen. You just want people to click on you. You just want to be and okay, cool. It leads to maybe more clients and business and whatever, but you're literally basing your marketing on a lie. What does that say about you? It's just annoying. It's just annoying. So anyway, I wanted to just close the podcast with that because I think we need to change the way that we're trying to live our life. We don't need to necessarily be popular. I think we need to be contributing in a positive way to the world and leaving it a better place than we arrived.
(59:47):
Okay. All right. I think I'm going to wrap it up there. This was episode number 33. I'll see you on the next podcast. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 32 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. I'm here with the main man, Marley. What's going on, mate? What's
Marley Sola (00:00:07):
Up, brother? I'm good, bro. How are you? Good.
Brock Ashby (00:00:13):
So we were in a New Zealand famous band called Morehouse.
Marley Sola (00:00:19):
I don't know if a famous is a good
Brock Ashby (00:00:21):
Word for that, man, bro. I think our single chartered at number eight. I remember that. Did it? Yeah. Wow. Mama said
Marley Sola (00:00:27):
That's good. I'm pretty proud of that song. People still play that song, bro. I'm proud.
Brock Ashby (00:00:32):
Actually, my friend's wife loves that song. Really? Yeah. Reminds her of Christmas and her kids like it.
Marley Sola (00:00:38):
Yeah, that's good. We made it.
Brock Ashby (00:00:39):
Yeah. We've got three people that listen to this royalties. So what's been happening since Morehouse? So obviously I moved over here, set up in Australia. You stayed in Christchurch, you moved around since then. What have you been doing?
Marley Sola (00:01:00):
What have I been doing? Did I move to Sydney before you, or did you move to Sydney? Because I remember I was here for a year.
Brock Ashby (00:01:09):
I think you were there before me. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:01:10):
Yeah. I think I just,
Brock Ashby (00:01:12):
Because you had the studio that I came at, that I came to
Marley Sola (00:01:16):
In Parramatta. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro. Since the boy band, bro, I've just been doing music, bro. It's just living life, like family. Yeah, just trying to do whatever I can in the music industry. You know what it's like, bro, writing, recording. I sort of locked myself away for a few years to learn how to produce and mix and master and all that kind of stuff. All the good stuff and all the hard stuff you have to do so hard. And just being, I don't really gig that much anymore, bro, to be honest. So I've just been doing more producing, to be honest, and started my own business two years ago called Meow Studios in Christchurch. So we have about a hundred or over a hundred kids come through on a weekly basis and about eight tutors that we employ, and that's me and my wife that run that. So yeah, that's me pretty much, bro.
Brock Ashby (00:02:14):
And how do you find teaching people how to sing? Because I taught guitar for a little while and I was just frustrated the whole time. They never did their homework, and they would come to class and we'd just be going over the same things because they never did their homework. And maybe I wasn't the best teacher, but I was like, man, this is so hard. I don't think I'm made for teaching kids. Because it's like you have to be so patient. And I'm not saying you only teach kids, obviously you teach adults and everywhere in between too. But how do you find it?
Marley Sola (00:02:49):
I really love it, bro. I feel like teaching vocals is more than just teaching vocals as is anything like when you're doing your personal training, it's more than just lifting the weights and all that kind of stuff. It's like the relationship, it's life. And I feel like through vocal tutoring, for me, it's an opportunity to, I guess, help someone with their vocals, like their technique, but more so learning more about themselves, bro. Maybe parts they didn't know that they had, and I guess levels that they didn't know that they could get to, which was always inside of them. But it's just, I guess our job as teachers or trainers is to actually help them be confident in themselves. Do you know what I mean? I dunno about you, Barry. What's it like for you when you are training?
Brock Ashby (00:03:45):
I think training people. Yeah. I think it's very much, well, so it depends on the capacity. So I started as a face-to-face personal trainer. So that's very different to online personal training because you are physically there with them. But I'd have to agree with the fact that it's not just the physical or the physical thing that you're doing. So it's not just vocal singing for you. It's not just working out for me. It's not just, oh yeah, let's put on some muscle, let's do some exercises and let's eat this and eat that, and then we're all good. And then you've just changed physically, but it's like you change people.
Marley Sola (00:04:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Brock Ashby (00:04:21):
I have an example of this lady that I trained when I was a pretty fresh personal trainer. I first moved to Sydney and I was in fitness first, and I got this lady who wanted to train three times a week, and she weighed about 112 kilos. So she had quite a lot of weight to lose, and that was her goal, fat loss. So we started training, but she couldn't do quite a lot of exercises because her body just wasn't accustomed to exercise. She'd had a gym membership for years, but never stepped in the door. So she just had this direct debit coming out reminding her that she needed to go, oh, that
Marley Sola (00:04:49):
Reminds me of myself.
Brock Ashby (00:04:54):
So she finally was like, I'm going to get a personal trainer to help me do it. So it was me. So when you're a new personal trainer in the gym, some gyms will give the new personal trainer the leads to help encourage you to get clients and get better because the people that have been there for longer should have a client base. They've been there for longer. So I took her on and I learned a lot straight out. She couldn't do say a squat because she weighed too much for her legs to handle. So we had to make exceptions. So she'd have to squat to a certain box that would stop her range of motion. So she'd go down 20 centimetres and go back up. And that was her squat for now. And then it would be 30 a month later, maybe 40 centimetres a month after that. So I'm saying this because it's not just, yeah, we lost a lot of weight. We ended up losing 45 kilos, which is
Marley Sola (00:05:43):
That's
Brock Ashby (00:05:44):
Crazy, bro. Man. Yeah. And we took a photo with the 45 kg dumbbell to symbolise how much she'd lost. And she was a different person. She had exhilarated a career as well. She had more confidence around what she wore. She had a different level of confidence. And not that posting on Instagram makes you confident because this was a few years ago, but she started posting what she was doing and stuff, and she was waking up early, going to see sunrises with her kids, and she wasn't doing this stuff beforehand. So it was, yeah, way more than just a physical transformation. So I can understand how singing and breaking barriers within how they express themselves can change not just their singing ability, but their whole life.
Marley Sola (00:06:28):
Their whole life, bro. The way they see themselves, it's like, yeah, you open up a different perspective for them. It's almost like giving them what you can see. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:06:40):
So how did you develop your singing? Because when we met, your voice was crazy, and it's always been crazy. And I personally, even though I was a singer, and I'll saying to you before in the car, I don't feel like a singer. I was never naturally a singer where I was just like, yeah, I grew up singing and it comes naturally. I always felt like I had to work five times as hard just to get something, which I still wouldn't a hundred percent get. And then some people just be like, yeah, well, okay, what are we doing? Bang, and just nailing it. I felt like that in Morehouse. It was so hard to nail things. I was always super pitchy. And you guys were just jumping in the flow of everything. How did you develop that? Because, sorry, I'll just asked your a question, but I'm cutting in.
Marley Sola (00:07:28):
Hey,
Brock Ashby (00:07:28):
Hey, get
Marley Sola (00:07:29):
Your own, man.
Brock Ashby (00:07:31):
I felt like it's something that you have and don't have, but then it can also be taught at the same time. So there's this nature, this nurture
Marley Sola (00:07:41):
Situation. I feel like it is a hard thing because as much as you say that maybe I'm natural, whatever. I guess as a kid, since I was 12 or something, I'd been really intentional with what I was listening to. I don't really listen to heaps of music. I don't have a mass of, what do you call, playlist or whatever. I have the same albums that I've been listening to since I was five years old.
Brock Ashby (00:08:13):
And what are those albums?
Marley Sola (00:08:16):
Always, and for real by at ease. Miseducation of Lauren Hill, Bob Marley, and The Whalers, all that kind of stuff, bro. And it's very,
(00:08:29):
I guess you have to pay close attention to whatever you're trying to achieve. You have to pay close attention to people that have already done it. So I used to just sit in my bedroom and sing, and you could ask my mom, she would be like, this guy would never stop singing in the shower or wherever I was, I'd be singing. So yes, I don't know, because I get that quite a lot. It's like, how did you just start? I'm like, man, I actually worked really hard to actually, and even still to this day, I'm very, as chill as I am, I really love the intricacies of music. And maybe not the theory side, but just the feeling side and how they're hitting a certain or whatever. Yeah. And then I guess when people ask me that question, I'm like, no, you can work hard to get it. Anyone can do it. Just depends on, yeah, maybe people are at a certain level. Do you know what I mean? You know, get that question. It's like, I don't know if you've heard that question before, but can you teach someone that's tone deaf to sing? Or can you teach anyone to sing? Like I feel like yes, that's definitely achievable for them to sing like me or
Brock Ashby (00:09:55):
You dreaming,
Marley Sola (00:09:57):
Oh, there's no way
Brock Ashby (00:09:59):
You'll never be me.
Marley Sola (00:10:00):
But it's true because no one could be me and I could not be them. So it's like I'm just trying to get you to be the best you can be. It's not about,
Brock Ashby (00:10:11):
So yeah, that's the challenging thing about fitness too, that ties exactly in. People will be like, I want to look like you. And I'm like, you can't. And that's not in an arrogant way, like, oh, I'm just massive and I'm way bigger than you and whatever. It's just like I have different genetics. I have different time to commit to training. I have different foods that I enjoy. I have different habits. One thing that I had and that I have always had since growing up, and even until now, I move a lot and not just saying training and walking and stuff. When I talk, I move my hands a lot. And I've had that since a kid. And ever since I was a kid, I've always struggled to gain weight. So I've always had this kind of lean tendency of always looking lean. And some people have the opposite. They tend to sit down more, and when they talk, they just have their hands in their pockets where I'm standing around and pointing and doing this stuff, and that adds up over time. So a person that just sits down, and this isn't saying that that's bad, but a person that that tendency is never going to have the amount of calories that they can consume. I can just because they moveless,
(00:11:23):
But no one wants to hear it say, I just want to look like you. And people say to you, I want to sing. You just help me sing you. It's like, well, let's just help you be the best. Yeah, all that can happen.
Marley Sola (00:11:34):
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right, Brian. It's like, what? Your analogies, the person sitting down and they're like, I want to be you standing up and doing all this stuff. Then it's like, well, I guess you're not going to look exactly like me, but if you want to start, you're going to have to get up and start moving. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:11:53):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like these small steps that people have to do, and it's up to them if they want to do that. But even if they did everything that I did, they would still look different. If you want to get down to it, each person's muscles insert differently on their body. So some person might have a chest that is really full and looks huge, and then some guy might train just as much chest, but it'll just look different. Some people's chest are shaped, they kind of go in the middle. Or even though they train hard and they have this body, it's just different. Some people's bro, some people have huge calves and they've never trained calves in their life, and you're like, how do you have those huge calves? I've been training them every day for years. It's just genetics. So there's these things that we can try and do, but it's like ultimately we can just be our best you.
Marley Sola (00:12:39):
Yeah. That's it, bro. Nice. Yeah, I like that.
Brock Ashby (00:12:43):
Yeah, I get that a lot. And it, it's hard because people will train with me because they admire, let's just say my physique, and then we'll be training together and they'll be getting frustrated because they're trying to look like me. And when I was a face-to-face personal trainer, I'll be like, but I'm on my feet all day. I'm training twice a day. I work in a gym. So if I have a lunch break, I'm going to eat and train because it's so easy. I just need to step outside my door and I'm at a gym. But for you, this theoretical person that I'm talking about, they might have 45 minutes to train at lunchtime. So they go in and they train, then they go home, they have two kids, they're making dinner, they're trying to help them with their homework, and then they don't have time to have their own dinner. So they just get takeaways or something really easy and they have no time. Then they've got to spend time with their wife or their husband. And then time is just so short. And then I'm this single young personal trainer, just doing what he wants, staying up late, training twice a day, no stress. I don't have kids at the moment, and it's like, you won't have what I have just because of that. The time, the stress, the freedom to just do what you want.
Marley Sola (00:13:53):
But I guess at the same time, it's adaptable way. Now that you are a father, you adapt how your life is to still maintain what you,
Brock Ashby (00:14:02):
Yeah. But you have to be so much more intentional with your time. Yeah. I felt like that's the biggest thing I've learned as a father is being intentional with your time, the time that you have when you don't have kids, it's like, oh, you just wake up. You're like, oh, watch. Yeah, let's watch a movie. Let's do this and that. I might sleep until nine. I might go to sleep at 1:00 AM but that's no way. As a father, it's like, okay, and maybe it's just how I am. Maybe people operate differently, but I'm like, okay, I'm up at this time. I'll have an hour, maybe two hours before she wakes up and I'll do this and that. I feel like I have to be a bit more calculated.
Marley Sola (00:14:39):
Yeah, true. I guess I don't really understand. I'm not a father yet, but I guess while I was saying adaptable, everyone's got a different schedule, so it's learning how to, I guess when I'm teaching someone, they always like, how do I practise if I've probably got a busy schedule, or I was busy this week and dah, dah, dah. But then it's like if you put your practise into everyday life, they're like, oh, sing in the car. Sweet. That's practise. But be intentional about it. Be intentional in the car while you're singing. You know what I mean? And really think about what we've been working on in the car. If that's where you do it, then do it there. Wherever you can get time to do it, then just go hard.
Brock Ashby (00:15:20):
So what do you think the biggest obstacle is for people to become good singers?
Marley Sola (00:15:27):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:15:27):
But how can you be confident if you feel like you suck at singing?
Marley Sola (00:15:31):
Well, maybe even myself, I'm still critical, and you are your biggest critic. We all know that. So I think confidence is because if you think you're a shit singer, you're unconfident. So it's just, you know what I mean? You really have to almost train your mind. It is the renewal of your mind, and you constantly have to do that. Because if I kept on telling myself I was a crap singer because of one performance, I could just stop singing
Brock Ashby (00:16:05):
And that's all you'd ever amount to be,
Marley Sola (00:16:07):
And that's it. Or I could keep working on it and be positive that there's still more or there's still, because what I'm thinking as a singer, I've been singing for a long time now, just as long as you, and we've been singing for ages, bro. I dunno if you sing anymore. Nah,
Brock Ashby (00:16:27):
I only sing to my wife at the wedding. Well, it's it, and that's it. And in the shower's it come on.
Marley Sola (00:16:35):
But I still have more to grow.
Brock Ashby (00:16:40):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Marley Sola (00:16:41):
And I think the day that I say I am stopped and I've kept, that's when I stop and I just won't sing, or I won't try to pursue it as a career or whatever.
Brock Ashby (00:16:55):
So how do you develop confidence if you feel like you're, what's the difference between going from, I'm an unconfident singer, so let's say I walk into Mellow studios and I want to get better at singing, but I'm unconfident. How do I go from being unconfident to confident?
Marley Sola (00:17:14):
I guess it's heaps of things that add up what you said, bro. It's so many things like in your everyday life that add up to this one thing you're trying to do. Right? It's never just the thing. It's always the fricking, like
Brock Ashby (00:17:30):
Everything else.
Marley Sola (00:17:31):
Yeah, everything else that's behind it. So I guess you've got to be intentional again and focus everything in the right direction. And it all has to align. So then when you do come into the studio, you're happy with what's going on in the background. You've got positive people speaking into your life. You've got positive people saying, coming to your gigs, you've got actual real relationships who are supporting you in your music career to then feel confident in yourself. But it doesn't just, do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:18:09):
It doesn't just
Marley Sola (00:18:09):
Happen. Yeah. You can't just flick a switch and then, oh, sweet. I love myself.
Brock Ashby (00:18:14):
Yeah. I'm so good now. Yeah. I think that the environment's a big one. And I also think one thing that I've learned over time with many things in my life, it's been going from unconfident to confident is practise. And that's what you're talking about with intent, being intentional, because that's practise even let's say a huge thing of what I do now is talk to camera, whether it's social media or whether it's this podcast we're talking, or whether it's videos that I'm recording for my app, for my clients and stuff, I have to talk a lot. And the only way to get better at that is to do it.
Marley Sola (00:18:54):
That's it.
Brock Ashby (00:18:55):
I remember when I first started, and I can still get better 100%. I'm still trying to get better, but my early stuff is just horrendous to watch. You're just like, what the hell are you saying? A lot of ums, a lot of ahss, a lot of eyes darting around, a lot of retakes that people don't see. Like, I'm not using that, or I'm going to edit that, take that awkward silence out and all this stuff. But it's just practise. Yeah, practise, practise, press, press this. Well see, look, I need to practise talking. But yeah,
Marley Sola (00:19:22):
Is this your podcast?
Brock Ashby (00:19:24):
But I feel like that fills the gap, and that's the hardest thing about going from being unconfident at anything, whether it's singing or how you feel with your body, or whether it's writing or speaking, whatever it is. I feel like it's practise, but that's the hardest thing to do. Do the reps just practise singing? Just do your homework. And that's why I'd get frustrated with my guitar clients. They weren't practising . They would just be the same. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:19:50):
Hard.
Brock Ashby (00:19:51):
Yeah, no practise. But that environment thing as well is huge.
Marley Sola (00:19:55):
100%. If you just say, maybe I could just put it in the music thing, but if I had a vocal student and then all I was saying to that vocal student is like, here, shit, you're not getting any better. This is just not working. Where do you think that person's going to end up
Brock Ashby (00:20:15):
At a different place? A different
Marley Sola (00:20:17):
Singing That could be, yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:20:19):
True. Or just giving up
Marley Sola (00:20:21):
Or give up. And I guess as humans, we have to find that positive community that are uplifting each other. And that's cultural bro too. Being around our cultures that we grow up in is family and community is a big thing, and it's never just the one person doing the thing. We stand on the shoulders of giants. So finding that background and those people or that place or that person who's going to uplift you and help you out.
Brock Ashby (00:21:00):
Yeah, I think that's what got me even into singing. Yeah. I never thought I was a, well, I never thought that I would do that for a living, for that time in my life. How we were in Morehouse and we were like, oh, we're signed to Sony. Sounds really cool. I was like, whoa. But I don't think I ever would've did that if I had people around me, like yourself and the boys and the tutors and the singing tutors that we had around us. And at church when we were singing, if I didn't have that around me, I just would've been like, I just wrote a song because I lost my mom and I was sad, and it helped me express. And then that was it. I would never have gone like, okay, I'm going to go all in and try and write songs and try and try and make it a thing. But I had that environment that was like, you can do it. You can do it hard. And I was like, but I'm not that great. But then there's people around you saying, but you can do it. You just work harder and all this kind of stuff. And it actually made, not saying that I was ever good, but it helped turn it into something.
Marley Sola (00:22:00):
No, I reckon you're an amazing singer and songwriter and everything. I feel like if anything, you had everything going for you to, or you had the right work ethic, you had the right, it's just
Brock Ashby (00:22:14):
Such a struggle, man.
Marley Sola (00:22:16):
But it's just one of my friends, Vince, Vince, ADA, he's always says, it's just happy accidents when you make it. It's never, you know what I mean? You can work as hard as you want, but if the stars don't alone and all that kind of stuff, then just be grateful that you're singing.
Brock Ashby (00:22:33):
But that's where I struggled with it, and that's where I actually went from, okay, I'm going to be a singer. And then when we broke up as the band, I was like, well, I want to do something else. Because I struggled with that. I was like, I'm working my ass off. I'm doing this and I'm doing that. But then, yeah, there's that element of luck. There's that element of who, and this, Vince had that big song with P Money, obviously he's a hard worker, and he did all that stuff, but that song just went huge. And that's the kind of aligning of the stars thing, because yeah, that song just went huge for him. That put him on the map. But he was singing way before that, and even after, he's still putting songs out and stuff. But that one really flew out, and it's like, I was like, how long do I give it until get that.
(00:23:18):
Yeah. Other stars going to align. Am I going to have that song? Am I going to meet someone that's going to say, Hey, I believe in you, and then it's going to go huge. I'm going to be like Justin Bieber. And I was thinking about this stuff, and then I was like, man, I had this big moment where I was, I feel like I have to realise the reality of what's happening. And I was like, I've been saying I didn't feel like I was the natural singer. When you meet people, Vince and yourself and Barry, and people where it just flows out. Guy Sebastian, I felt like I'm not that breed. I'm not the breed of that person that just sings. And it just all falls out and perfectly in tune with all this passion and feeling. I was like, it feels too hard for me.
(00:24:03):
And I was like, but I'm really naturally talented at sport and things like that. And I was like, I feel like that's where I am. But I had that positive environment around singing. But then before that, I was the sport guy, and that's all I did. And coming back to that supportive environment, my dad was always supportive of anything that I did as well. So he backed the sport. He also backed the singing. He loved music. And I grew up in Bob Marley and all that kind of stuff too, but I was like, how long do I give it? I was like, I need to also have a living. Because after the band broke up and I was just kind of trying to figure out my life, and I moved to Auckland, I was like, what am I doing here? How am I going to pay rent? And things like that. So I had to get practical as well, and I was kind of desperate. I was broke, so I was like, oh, I'm going to do personal training, what you do if you're into fitness and stuff like that. So then that's where that kind of started. But yeah, I don't know. I had to look deep down.
Marley Sola (00:24:58):
Yeah, true, bro.
Brock Ashby (00:25:00):
It's like
Marley Sola (00:25:02):
Even for me, bro, music I guess going to make me a living,
Brock Ashby (00:25:09):
But you never know. The stars could align.
Marley Sola (00:25:10):
Yeah, the stars could
Brock Ashby (00:25:11):
Align, bro. That's the thing that I'm saying. But I personally struggle with that, of living with the hope of luck. I feel like it's not solid. I'm such a rigid
Marley Sola (00:25:23):
Person. You need to know.
Brock Ashby (00:25:24):
I'm like, if I do this, this, and this, I want to get this. But it's so hard with music.
Marley Sola (00:25:29):
I guess I'm maybe different in that way of I'm happy with what the outcome is because Love it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I love music and I love the power of music. I love what I do with music. I love giving advice on music, and I feel like music can help your life. It really can. There's actual fact, someone was telling me that the other day that 30 minutes of singing and even in a choir or something, is more beneficial than anything that you can do for your mental health. So it's like music's got something special about it, bro. And I feel like I'm gifted enough just to be able to contribute to music. I feel like I'm just a contribution. I'm only here for, you're only on Earth for a little bit, bro.
Brock Ashby (00:26:29):
So small. Yeah,
Marley Sola (00:26:30):
It's so small. You're only here for a small amount of time. So I just want to be in a position in my life that I'm enjoying the things that I do, regardless of what it's, maybe I'll become a personal trainer. Well, you've
Brock Ashby (00:26:44):
Come to the right guy. Hey, don't
Marley Sola (00:26:46):
Laugh, mate.
Brock Ashby (00:26:48):
So how do you think music has changed your life? Changed my life? Yeah. I know specifically where, but how has it changed your life? Is there a moment or moments where if I didn't have music, I didn't know where I'd be, or music got me through this time,
Marley Sola (00:27:05):
I don't think, maybe not specifically. Music probably got me somewhere or whatever. I feel like because I have faith and I feel like God is something so tangible in my life and so real to me, and I feel like music's just like the, what is it called? The out, what is it called? The extension of what God's doing in my life. It's just something that I do and something that I'm gifted to do. You know what I mean? It's not something I identify myself with. But if I was to say, what did that extension help me with? I feel like so many things for so many situations and so many ways, maybe different parts of my life that I was able to express through music. Like yourself, bro. You're a very emotional writer. Yeah. Expression. Yeah, expression bro. Because a lot of people can't express themselves because they don't have any
Brock Ashby (00:28:14):
Outlets to do
Marley Sola (00:28:15):
It. Outlets. And I feel like music is the biggest outlet of emotion. You can just scream your lungs out, give it everything you have. Yeah, bro. And I feel like a very, it's a very spiritual experience for me when I sing. Yeah, bro.
Brock Ashby (00:28:37):
Yeah. I felt like it definitely helped me express myself. So when I lost mom, I was young. You don't really know what words to say. You don't really know how to explain how you're feeling. So I just tried to write a song and then that helped me get through it. Even just trying to write a song that was super basic. I didn't really know how to write anything. I didn't really know many chords on the guitar, didn't know that that was the first time I sung or wrote a song, and I'd never think, oh, I like the guitar, or I like this. I just tried it, and it really helped me express an outlet. I was like, oh, even though it's still a tough time and you're still dealing with stuff, it's like you feel like you've kind of, I don't know the a hundred percent of grief that you have to do. I lost maybe 10% from writing that and from singing that out,
(00:29:27):
I remember, so the first song I ever wrote was for my mother's funeral, so I sang it. It was the first time I sung publicly and the first song I ever wrote, and I sang it there like, oh, do you want to do the song? I was like, okay. So I did it. And looking back, I was like, that's a strange thing to do. I wasn't like a music kid. I was a sport kid, but I did it and it was hard to finish. I was trying to cry and sing at the same time. And those things don't happen very well at the same time. But yeah, I felt lighter. It's such an expression. I felt like that's how it's helped me. Not that I do it a lot now, but at that time I needed to get some weight off. It's hard to deal with it. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:30:15):
Yeah. Hard bro. Yeah. I feel like I don't know about you, but that spiritual thing, bro, I feel like, so it's connected to something else. When I sing, that's what I actually feel like, and I feel like you can be real vulnerable with it. And yeah, it's one of the many things, you can be very vulnerable and it not judge you. You know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:30:43):
It just is what it is. It's not like that's wrong or That's right.
Marley Sola (00:30:46):
It's just anything goes. No
Brock Ashby (00:30:49):
Rules. Yeah. That's the freedom of it.
Marley Sola (00:30:52):
So then when we come back to singing, how we were talking about singing techniques and teaching, and if you think that you can get a singer from there to there or whatever, that's literally what I say to my students is there's no rules. It's anything goes and whatever makes you happy, then we are winning.
Brock Ashby (00:31:12):
And that can help give them the confidence to actually start applying what they're learning from you
Marley Sola (00:31:17):
And just become more of themselves, I guess. That's what I'm trying to do, bro. It's just become more of who I truly am. That's pretty deep.
Brock Ashby (00:31:28):
What's the most important song that you've written?
Marley Sola (00:31:32):
That I've written? My last single that I released was Lift Your Head High. And I guess that was a very special song. And again, very spiritual song in the way that I got to really speak about or sing about my life. Do you know what I mean? I got to record my family. I just chuck a couple of mics in the room and just recorded my family as the choir. And my mom's in there, and my dad's in there. And my video clip was just my family at my nana's house. And it's very important because that's very special to me, is my family. They're my community and they're my biggest supporters. They'll be there at a drop of the hat, bro. So that was probably my most special song to write. I got to write about my sister, and it's cool, uplifting song. And yeah, the chorus is just lift your head high, you'll get the next one.
Brock Ashby (00:32:43):
Was that about something that you missed out on, or was it
Marley Sola (00:32:46):
Just a melody
Brock Ashby (00:32:48):
That came into your head, or some words that
Marley Sola (00:32:50):
Lifted you up? Yeah, I guess I resonated with it because I feel like in life, we always are going to lose something. You know what I mean? No way. You go through life and you're winning the whole way. If you are, what the heck is the secret?
Brock Ashby (00:33:11):
I want what you have.
Marley Sola (00:33:15):
But to be reassured that it will be all right. Yeah. And I guess that was my own way of saying it, because a pretty generic thing to see,
Brock Ashby (00:33:26):
But I feel like that's such an important message. And I feel like, I think what's happening with people these days, and I guess I'm speaking for the both of us, because we've both gone through hard times. Obviously you've had your own experience. I've had my own experience, but I feel like people need to hear that because I think people are almost afraid to apply themselves these days.
(00:33:49):
No one wants to try. I think that cancel culture doesn't help people on social media saying what they think, and then people are cancelling them just because they said their opinion or said their opinion, sorry. And people are afraid. I think social media also doesn't help in the aspect of people looking at all these fake versions of people's lives. Like the highlight version. The highlight reel. Whenever I just bought this car, I just bought this, here's my hot wife, and here's my hot husband, or here's my fancy car, and this is what I do for work. I own a million a month. And you see all this stuff on social media and you're like, man, everyone's doing so well. Why should I even try?
Marley Sola (00:34:26):
Yeah, hard.
Brock Ashby (00:34:27):
But I feel like when we were growing up, we didn't have access to see what everyone else was doing. So we just tried stuff and we failed, and we got better, and we failed, and we got better, and we failed. And we kind of failed to where we are today
Marley Sola (00:34:39):
And we're still failing.
Brock Ashby (00:34:41):
That's true. It's true. We're still failing.
Marley Sola (00:34:43):
That's
Brock Ashby (00:34:43):
It, bro. I feel like I've just taken on this place, the Team Rock Bury headquarters, Hey,
Marley Sola (00:34:49):
Let's go.
Brock Ashby (00:34:50):
I may not have done that. The link above swipe up to donate, but I may have never done that. If I looked at other people and saw, oh, look what they have. Oh, why should I do it? This guy has a gym with 20 squat racks. Why should I just have this little thing? I feel like people are very scared to do what they feel like they need to do or that they want to do. It's such an important message.
Marley Sola (00:35:17):
And that goes hand in hand with what you were asking me about people who don't sing or they feel unconfident to sing. If they didn't try, then they would never know. You know what I mean? So they have to go into it. They have to fail. You can't be scared of failure because it's inevitable. It's literally inevitable. There's probably situations where money comes into play, where people have money, like you're saying, and all that kind of stuff, or they're born into money and stuff, but they'll still lose something. Money doesn't mean nothing. They're still going to lose something or they're going to fail at something eventually or whatever. And I'm not trying to speak that on their lives, but it's natural. If we never fail, we're perfect.
Brock Ashby (00:36:07):
And there's no resilience or grit that's developed, I think. Nah. I think one of the hardest periods of my life was actually when I left Christchurch to go to Auckland because man, it was such a journey. I don't even know if we've talked about it that much. Yeah, what happened, man? So I packed up my Honda Civic that I had, that my dad got me off, my brother's ex-girlfriend that cost $500, super rusty, super shit. And it had an oil leak, and it had no warrant or rejo. So the day before I was going to drive up to Auckland to move, I packed everything in. I went to get the Rejo on the Friday, I was going to leave on the Saturday, or maybe the Monday or something like that, a few days later. And I was like, Hey, I want to warrant on Rejo.
(00:36:53):
And they're like, oh, you need this part and that part. We can probably do it in two weeks. And I was like, well, I'm leaving tomorrow. And they were like, oh, we can't help you. So I just drove with the oil leak, no warrant, no rejo car, Honda Civic, small hatchback, packed with all my stuff, all my belongings, my guitar, my clothes, and I just left. I drove all the way up to my Nana's house in Lenna. So five hour drive by every major city or major town, I should say, that I went through. I had to buy a new big thing of oil to put back in. I was just pouring it in and out. I was driving, all the oil was falling out. Holy crap. So it was just a big nightmare, man. So I stayed at my nana's. I drove up to Wellington, put some new oil in, caught the ferry over, and then I drove 10 hours from Auckland, sorry, from Wellington to Auckland, or however long it is.
(00:37:42):
I, I was going to sleep in my car one night and my friend paid for a hotel for me to stay at. So I stayed there. I was super thankful for that. I was just going to sleep in my car. I had no money. Wow. My dad gave me $800 before I left, so that's a little bit of a lie. But when I got to Auckland, I had to pay for the oil leak to get fixed, and it cost me $800. Oh, wow. So I was back at square zero, and then I was like, I had to find a job. I had to do this. I didn't know anyone, so I knew. Do you remember Omega from Parachute? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I stayed with him for a while, but I think I stayed a bit too long. Oh, really? But I was just sleeping on a couch and I was like, to be honest, I was super upset every night I was crying and I was like, man, what am I doing with my life? I've just moved and I've got nothing. I don't know anyone. I knew him. I knew a couple of people in Auckland, but I didn't have that support network. Wow.
Brock Ashby (00:38:37):
It
Brock Ashby (00:38:37):
Was crazy, man, bro. That's just on the surface.
Brock Ashby (00:38:40):
But
Marley Sola (00:38:41):
Lemme tell you what's underneath
Brock Ashby (00:38:42):
The shoes, mate. There's a lot of tears.
Brock Ashby (00:38:45):
But that was such a challenging part. And then I had to find a place to live. I had to find a place to work. So I started working. I applied for all these jobs and all this kind of stuff. But I guess I'm saying this because that taught me so much that built resilience, nothing. I literally had nothing, had a broken car, and I floated somehow.
Marley Sola (00:39:09):
Wow. That's crazy.
Brock Ashby (00:39:11):
I think, yeah, because Morehouse was still going, but we weren't doing a lot of gigs. Nah. We were digging in every now and then. We were, I guess it was slowing down after we did some stuff in Auckland and some festivals and stuff. And then there was time in between. And then I moved up there and I was like, man, all this kind of stuff in between. But I feel like that resilience came from times like that, man, I dunno what's going to happen tomorrow, but I have to make it happen. I feel like potentially if social media was around and I really cared about what other people were doing, and I was like, that's crazy. And I thought about it too much. I probably wouldn't have done it, but I feel like I was so naive or had so much belief from the supportive environment, you guys, the friends, the family, my dad cheering me on, I'll back. Anything you do. I was like, okay, I can do it. So I did it and I floated. But I feel like it's coming back to your message of that song, it's so important to just keep lifting your head up and just trying again.
Marley Sola (00:40:15):
And I was literally just talking to my wife not too long ago, bro, or maybe even today. And I was just like, man, as humans, we really need to get to the end of ourselves to find ourselves. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:40:28):
Massively. I agree with that. Actual,
Marley Sola (00:40:30):
We have to get right to the end of ourselves until we feel like we're in the pit almost. To be able to really scavenge the things of who we truly are, and then boom, apply them. We never get
Brock Ashby (00:40:46):
There.
Marley Sola (00:40:48):
You will just continue on the surface.
Brock Ashby (00:40:52):
Do you know what I mean? This kind of mundane, mund,
Marley Sola (00:40:56):
Cruise level, mundane, and just do it because it's there, but not actually know who you are. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:41:05):
Because you're not tested. You don't have to prove anything. Not that it's about proving something or being this and that and achieving this and that, but I just feel like it develops character. It gives you, if your back's up against the wall, man, I remember
Brock Ashby (00:41:22):
I was actually telling my wife out this, yeah, maybe a couple months ago, man, the accommodation that I got after. So
Brock Ashby (00:41:30):
I flattered with these people that I met in Auckland for a while, and then I got own place that I was renting on my own. And it was like, man, it was the shape of a pizza slice, very small. You could probably take five big steps, and then you're at the wall, and it was shaped like a pizza, and it was shared bathrooms, and it was full of, bro, it was so weird. It was full of a lot of people that I think were just, I don't know, been through a lot, let's say. And I remember this guy was just watching porn in the open room, the communal room that everyone could be at, and the lounge. I was literally making my dinner, which was like eggs. They were cheap. I was like, bro. And he's just sitting there watching it, and I was just like, bro, what's going on?
(00:42:23):
I was like, where am I living? And then I would try to sleep at night, and I remember I felt a cockroach crawling up my leg. And I was like, what am I? You were like, protein, where is it? Where is it? Where is it? I'm starving. It was just crazy, man. And I'm not saying that people have to go through that, and there's probably a better place to stay, but I was just so desperate. But I look back at those times and I laugh because that really, once again, developed me, made me, I found myself, I guess I had to be resourceful. And that's when I was really grinding. I felt like it was super tough. I didn't have many friends in Auckland, and I was working this job. I didn't like every other minute that I wasn't doing that. I was trying to work in some capacity when I was still doing music, doing music when I wasn't. I was trying to do other things, fitness study, fitness and all this kind of stuff. You're on the TV show too? Yeah, I did the TV thing as well. I auditioned for it. I actually flew to Christchurch to audition for it. So here's the story.
(00:43:27):
I was still trying to do music at the time. Oh, Morehouse was still together. Morehouse was still together. And I was working at a place called Haass. The Jans, the Jans in Australia, the thongs. And I was just sitting there and it was such a, I obviously didn't like the job. I'm selling Jans, what am I doing? But I just did it to get by. Someone that I knew gave me a contact, and I worked for 'em, and I worked hard on everything, but I'd literally sit there on the iPad that you'd take the transactions with. But when people weren't in the store, I was just reading about fitness. I was reading about intermittent fasting. I was reading about the keto diet. I was trying to, oh, I remember those days. I was trying to learn all this stuff. I was interested in fitness, and I got a call random number, and I was like, oh, should I pick up?
(00:44:20):
I was like, yeah, I'll pick up. So I picked up and it was like, Hey, we're from the four 30 show. We want to audition you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I flew down to Christchurch, did the audition, didn't get the main job, but I got the side gig, which was, oh, if you're in Auckland, you can go do the field work and go to a gig or go to a wrestling thing and just interview people. So I did that. And with that, I did that for a little bit, but that allowed me to leave my Hana's job.
(00:44:50):
And it wasn't a lot of money, man. My rent was, as long as I wasn't going broke, I was happy. So I left that job so that I could do other things with my time. And then the TV job was only maybe one to two jobs per week, but it was enough. It was more than obviously selling jandals, and maybe it was only $300 a week or something like that. But I was like, awesome, my rent's only one 50. I'll have 150 to eat, or something like that. So it was still a super struggle, man. But I was doing that so that I could do other things. And then I did online personal training to get, sorry, online personal training course to get qualified, quit the selling. jss, became a personal trainer, and then did the TV stuff on the side. And then I think during that time was when Morehouse broke up too. So it was like, yeah, it was like,
Marley Sola (00:45:35):
Go for you.
Brock Ashby (00:45:36):
Well, it was just a confusing time. I was like, I finally decided, okay, I really gave this Morehouse thing a shot music. And I was like, okay, I'm done. I'm going to go for fitness and just really apply and do the TV stuff. And I tried to do modelling and stuff as well, but a lot of times I got told, you're not tall enough, or You're too, I was into the gym too much. I was like, oh, you're too muscular. Because they wanted a tall, slender dude. And I was like, well, that's not me. So I didn't get much work there too. So yeah, that's why I really fell into personal training. That became my bread and butter, and I felt like I was actually quite good at it. So then I felt like this is what guy Sebastian must feel like when he's singing. I felt like I was in my arena that I was like, this feels natural. And there's a few things I needed to get better at, which is dealing with people and trying to run a business and doing all that stuff that I learned along the way. But I finally felt like, oh, okay, this makes sense. Where with singing, it was always like, oh, it didn't feel
(00:46:35):
Like it clicked. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:46:36):
Yeah. 100%. Oh, bro, what a crazy tone for you.
Brock Ashby (00:46:41):
It was crazy,
Marley Sola (00:46:42):
Man.
Brock Ashby (00:46:43):
A lot of tears.
Marley Sola (00:46:45):
Oh, a lot of tears.
Brock Ashby (00:46:46):
Yeah, it was crazy. Oh, and do you remember Julie Butler?
Marley Sola (00:46:49):
Julie Butler?
Brock Ashby (00:46:51):
Do you remember when we did X Factor? She gave us those clothes.
Marley Sola (00:46:55):
Julie.
Brock Ashby (00:46:55):
Julie, the British girl, girl, lady. The British lady Woman, yeah. And her husband, I think his name was Selwyn or something. And then they had a daughter that lived. Yeah, I remember. I think I visited them, or I stayed there or something like that for a while. Did you? Yeah. I had nowhere to stay and stuff. I think I reached out to them and I was like, Hey, I got nowhere to stay. And he picked me up after work one day, I remember. And I stayed there for a little bit. Wow.
Marley Sola (00:47:22):
Yeah. That's incredible. What good people, they were actually solid people,
Brock Ashby (00:47:26):
Bro. Oh, man. They were so good. Yeah, they were so nice. Obviously we wore their clothes and stuff, but I felt like they didn't really get anything out of that.
Marley Sola (00:47:35):
I know I felt kind of bad, but we
Brock Ashby (00:47:38):
Have four boxes of clothes, and then we wore it. But it's like, did they get more work from it? I don't know. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:47:45):
Shivers lovely, right? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:47:47):
Oh yeah.
Marley Sola (00:47:49):
Oh man. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah, bro. Oh, well, this sounds like you've cracked it. You've cracked the code, bro.
Brock Ashby (00:47:58):
But all to say, I feel like that made me who I am, whatever that is, that whole, what did you say? Letting go of yourself to find yourself or
Marley Sola (00:48:09):
Something like that? Yeah. You really have to get to the end of yourself to find yourself. I
Brock Ashby (00:48:12):
Felt like I was there for a while,
Marley Sola (00:48:15):
But you just have to. Yeah, there's no way you can't, and it looks different to everyone. You know what I mean? It doesn't necessarily look like driving up to Auckland and the Honda Civic with the oil league, or it doesn't look like me coming back to Christchurch and getting a thousand dollar car and then breaking down every five seconds. You know what I mean? But there is a time in your life, and I'm not saying that I've found exactly who I am. I feel like there's more to discover. I
Brock Ashby (00:48:47):
Feel like the goalposts keep moving.
Marley Sola (00:48:49):
It just keeps moving. And once you get to it and it moves again, then be encouraged that you are heading in the right direction and it's good. But yeah, I feel like I'm in the space of my life where I'm like, I'm so capable of doing anything. You know what I mean? Yeah. I can do anything that I want. I feel positive about that. And the fact that I could go study, I could play more sport, and whether that amounts to playing for the All Blacks or whatever, or even if that's the dream, I still could just go do that. I feel confident in myself, and I feel like I've really gone through, not the hard stuff, but dive dove deep into myself to find that confidence. You know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:49:40):
Yeah. I always talk about this actually with my wife as well, and even my mates. I feel like that time, because some people ask me how I sound like that person on Instagram that goes, everyone's been asking me this and blah, blah. But no one's been asking, everyone's asking about my skin routine. So here it is, who asked
Marley Sola (00:50:00):
Who?
Brock Ashby (00:50:01):
No one's following you. But I mean, I've been asked because I'm very sure of what I'm doing. I'm set on where I'm going, and people ask, where's that come from? But it comes from the time you've said you've been through whenever you've had to gone through, and now you're kind of like you said, you'll try anything like that time of when I was at church between a majestic 14 years old to maybe 19, 20, whenever it was,
(00:50:31):
I spent so much time asking, trying to figure out what I was doing. And I feel like that really fast tracked me in terms of what I wanted to do. People now, and even it still changes, but a lot of people in the adult world dunno what they're doing. They're just cruising. But I felt like, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I was always very intentional and wanted to know where I wanted to be. But I spent those years of 14 to 20 going, what am I doing? What are my talents? What do I want to achieve? And what do I asking all these questions that don't even have answers, but I thought about it long enough to feel like, I think it's this, I think it's this. I think it's this. And then pursuing them and seeing what happens. But you have to think about it.
(00:51:13):
And I feel like a lot of adults, because going to church isn't the most common thing for people. Thinking about these deep things that you think about, that I've thought about, it's kind of like where you find the answers and they're like, this sounds really deep too. But in the stillness of when it's quiet or when there's just music playing and you're just thinking about your life and thinking about what you want to do or your friends and your family and the person you want to be and stuff like that. I've thought about that for so long, just with beautiful pads in the background and you're thinking or crying and going, but thinking about that stuff really helps you figure stuff out. And we're so distracted these days with phones and with this and that.
Marley Sola (00:51:59):
We're so impressionable too.
Brock Ashby (00:52:00):
We don't get to that deep state of, oh, this is who I am or what I want to be, or what I want to embody
Marley Sola (00:52:06):
Hard I prayer. I don't think, this is not to be discouraging, but I don't feel like we'll ever know exactly that thing. We just have to love what we're doing and be happy with it. I bet you are happy now, bro. You are here at your headquarters and you've got a baby. You've got a wife, and I guess the main thing is that you're happy. You know what I mean? Yeah. At the end of the day, you could be working at a million dollar job or whatever and still not be enjoying what you're doing. And you're probably here just loving it and just loving training your people and seeing the progress and all that kind of thing. So that's probably my thing in life, bro, is as long as I'm happy, I don't care what I'm earning, where I'm at, where I'm living, I'm as long as I'm happy, that should be enough.
Brock Ashby (00:52:58):
So actually, I've been thinking about this, and I actually wrote a quote about it maybe a couple months ago, but it's a pretty deep question. But what do you think happiness is? What do you think being happy is? How would you define it? Because a lot of people will say, just be happy, but what does that mean? Because my happiness will be different to yours. Yeah,
Marley Sola (00:53:18):
Yeah. 100%.
Brock Ashby (00:53:18):
But for you, what would you define it as? And then I'll give you mine.
Marley Sola (00:53:22):
I don't know. I feel like happiness for me is when you have that energy, that extra energy, and you're just like, I could be here forever. You know what I mean? That's probably the true happiness, or maybe happiness, is that it makes you so happy that it's emotional. It makes you want to cry. You're like, I'm just so grateful. Do you know what I mean for things? But are you asking what exactly makes me happy? Or what is the
Brock Ashby (00:53:48):
Feeling? Yeah. How would you describe it? Because you're saying becoming, doing something and it makes you emotional and stuff, but how would you define if are happy in your life? Because we're not going to cry entire life. What is that? You said? As long as you're happy. So what does that mean? I know this sounds pretty deep and woo woo, but
Marley Sola (00:54:14):
I can't explain it.
Brock Ashby (00:54:16):
It's hard. It's a hard
Marley Sola (00:54:17):
Question. Yeah, that is a hard question. That's why I'm
Brock Ashby (00:54:18):
Asking you. Yeah.
Marley Sola (00:54:19):
Yeah. It's like I feel like it's moments, bro. I can't put it down to, because I don't feel like everyone's going to be happy all the time. Right? Or I dunno. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:54:33):
But it depends how you define it once again, because maybe that's included in the path of happiness.
Marley Sola (00:54:39):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:54:39):
Maybe the struggle makes you happy and then getting there also makes you happy. So it's still hard, but that's part of the happiness. Yeah, right. I was thinking because like being happy is important and oh, that's the goal of life. But I was like, I don't think so, because I feel like when I chill and I'm like, ah, happy. Sometimes I feel this deep feeling behind that's unhappy because I'm stopped. So for me, I think the quote, oh man, let me try and find it. It was something, wait, I want to get it. I think it's in here. Quotes. Yeah. Yeah. Here it is. So I was like, I would rather be fulfilled. I feel like that adds, that combines happiness with motion, like fulfilment, because I feel like my brain, maybe not everyone, but I feel like a lot of humans are drawn to making progress.
(00:55:48):
And if you're not making progress, it's almost like you feel empty. And I'm not speaking for everyone. I'm kind of speaking for myself because I like to be moving forward. I feel like if I'm stale, the whole, if you're not going forward, you're going backwards thing. And this might be my own thing I need to deal with because man, just be content and be happy. I'm like, yeah, cool. But that's not how I work. I feel like I want to chase fulfilment as opposed to happiness. I feel like happiness is stationary, but maybe this is just how I define it, and I want to chase fulfilment. So the quote I said is fulfilment is happiness in motion. So I want to be fulfilled. I feel like if you live happy, it's different to someone who lives fulfilled. I feel like if someone lives fulfilled, it's like they move with purpose. And if you're happy, nothing against that, but it's kind of like you don't, happiness isn't that You see that person moving with purpose. I don't know. I've been thinking about it. It sounds really deep and really no,
Marley Sola (00:56:45):
But then
Brock Ashby (00:56:46):
You're very simple at the same time. You've being on drugs, sitting in your room thinking about it too much. But yeah, that's what I feel like I want to pursue fulfilment because I feel like that I kind of need purpose as a human being. If I don't, I'm just like, oh, I'm a happy chilled guy. Nothing wrong with being chilled. I probably shouldn't have even put that in a sentence, but I feel like if I feel I'm happy, I feel like I'm not doing something. I feel like I have this responsibility. I almost put upon myself. I've had that for ages. It could have been from when mom passed away. I felt like I have to do it proud or do my family proud and be like, Ashby. Yeah, put the name on the map type of thing. Make a difference. I've always kind of had that
Marley Sola (00:57:25):
True, bro. Yeah, I guess maybe I don't have the same,
Brock Ashby (00:57:31):
I'm not saying you have to, but I'm just saying that's my thoughts. That's why I've been, it's very
Marley Sola (00:57:35):
Different, I guess. And it's good, I feel like, but I guess that makes you happy.
Brock Ashby (00:57:41):
Yeah, exactly. That's my version of happiness. Maybe my happiness is fulfilment. It is
Marley Sola (00:57:46):
Fulfilment.
Brock Ashby (00:57:46):
Yeah. People that are just happy. My dad happiest man I've ever met, just doing whatever I am putting words in his mouth now, but I don't think he would want to live as the whole fulfilled thing, move with purpose type of thing. I feel like that's not really what he wants. He's just happy. And that's been awesome to see for me because I'm like, he doesn't care once again, how much he's making and Oh, you're wearing this. I'm wearing that. He's, as long as I'm seeing my kids and I'm happy at work, got mates, blah, blah, blah, that's happy. So growing up, seeing that, I was like, oh, that's what happiness is.
Marley Sola (00:58:27):
Yeah, 100%, bro. And even for, that's a really good example. Yo man,
Brock Ashby (00:58:33):
He is a happy man. So happy.
Marley Sola (00:58:34):
And same as my parents, bro. Their happiness could be just me coming around to see them on a Thursday. You know what I mean? It just lights the whole world up, man. I just want to be like that. I just want to be happy with and grateful. I guess that's the whole thing. It's just grateful for where I am now and where I will be in the future. And being grateful. Maybe grateful is the word that I'm thing, because when I'm grateful, I'm happy. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like when I'm being ungrateful, when I'm like, oh, I could have been DA and I could have or being always saying would've or should've, then I'm not happy and I'm not content and I'm not fulfilled because putting myself in situations that were never going to exist. You
Brock Ashby (00:59:30):
Know what I mean? Or your target's in the wrong place. You're focusing on the wrong things. Yeah,
Marley Sola (00:59:33):
Exactly, bro. So I just want to be able to reflect that happiness you're saying, your old man just being happy, working wherever, go and hang out with his mates and not having to be like, oh, I have to pursue this career because what better does that make you of a human being? That you're pursuing something? You
Brock Ashby (00:59:53):
Know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that it's tricky once again, because I spent a lot of time on social media. I come from this perspective of I feel like no one really celebrates that because it's not cool to post like, oh, you're hanging out with your parents. That's not, but what car are you driving? How did you get there? I feel like people are more concerned about that 100%. And because screen time is going up, everyone's concerned about what people are thinking. It's like, well, now everyone's perspective is slowly getting skewed. It's a very slow thing. But now I see it, and especially younger dudes in the gym that I see a lot. Some of them come up and ask me for advice and stuff like that, but I can tell they're just different to how we were growing up. I feel like they don't talk to as much people face to face.
(01:00:41):
They're walking back from school on their phones as opposed to looking up and talking to their mates, or they're walking with their mates, but they all got headphones in. I'm like, this is so different. And then obviously they're consuming something. And I feel like the content is slowly skewing towards what do you have? What are you wearing? Who are you, what do you stand for? All the types of things as opposed to, yeah, are you fulfilled? Are you happy? And look, I wasn't thinking about that when I was 12 or 14 either, but I feel like slowly it's skewing as they get older, their ladder's going to be up against the wrong wall, as opposed to being like, okay, I've got this father that just wants to be happy and has friends and family. Your parents, you're seeing them on a Thursday and they feel awesome. That's amazing. And I'm starting to appreciate that now, especially having, because I was very focused. I was just didn't want to hang out with people. I saw that as wasting time.
Marley Sola (01:01:29):
You didn't want to hang out
Brock Ashby (01:01:30):
With me. No, I didn't.
Marley Sola (01:01:32):
And I still don't get off.
Brock Ashby (01:01:33):
Get up. I haven't even been recording. But yeah, I was so obsessed with, I have to be this person or go somewhere. So I was like, I saw seeing people and it's stupid. Like, oh, this isn't going to benefit me. I'm going to go do something else. I had massive problems during that time, but I just felt so desperate that I had to make something of myself or be this person. I felt like time's against the, oh, man. It's like we're already 18 and the whole music industry, everyone's so young and making it, and we were in a boy band and then one direction come out, they're all two years younger than us or whatever. And I was like, oh, we got to do this, and we got to do that. And I was just obsessing over things. I could have just benefited way more of just hanging out
Marley Sola (01:02:23):
And just
Brock Ashby (01:02:24):
Being present as opposed to being, making this and making that.
Marley Sola (01:02:28):
Yeah, that's true, bro. And even simple things like going to play volley with my dad on a Saturday night, it's like, man, this makes him really happy and actually makes me really happy. And then I could be flying to Australia and then sitting in a mean hotel, having the meanest food and not even be happy. Do you know what I mean? It's like, man, what a waste of my time coming all the way. My happiness is back home. You know what I mean? It's like we go so far around the circle, we could travel halfway around the world and just know that our happiness is just literally was always in front of us. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's so funny. We're built that always searching for more and more and more, and then the actual thing that is right in front of your face is the thing that's the truest and most loving. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's crazy, bro.
Brock Ashby (01:03:29):
Man, there's this quote. Oh, my phone's over there. Wow. Oh, there's this, I don't even want to say it now. I'll butcher it. Actually, I'll just paraphrase it. You better
Marley Sola (01:03:39):
Get it right, man.
Brock Ashby (01:03:40):
Yeah. I hope I get it right. So there's a story of this guy, and he's like, actually, I don't want to start it, but it, I'll just stop there.
Marley Sola (01:03:53):
That's amazing, bro. Just put it in post.
Brock Ashby (01:03:56):
Put it in post production. I'll read it later, and then I'll copy paste it in and just
Marley Sola (01:04:00):
Be mime it now. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:04:04):
Okay. I'll say the main thing, right? So he says to the guy, so there's this fisherman, and he's like this businessman. He goes to the fishermen, why don't you, who's just goes out, fishes with people, comes back and he's like, well, why don't you buy some more boats because then you could have more people and expand your business, make more money, blah, blah. And he goes, okay. And then if I do that, I have more money. And then he goes, yeah. And then when you have more boats, then you could maybe open up, have different docks, and then you could have more docks and more boats and keep expanding the business. He goes, okay, cool. And then he goes, well, then maybe you could have your own fishing rods or whatever and keep making more money and expanding, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, okay. And then he goes, and then why? He goes, well, and then you could sell it and have a lot of money. He goes, okay, awesome. And then why? He goes, and then you could get a little boat and go out fishing every day. And he goes, that's what I'm doing
Marley Sola (01:05:02):
Already. Really?
Brock Ashby (01:05:04):
So it's kind of like that thing, he already has it, and he's like, but you could have all these things and make all this money and have this big company and expand and stuff just to sell it and do what he's doing. So he is like, well, it's kind of like, well, why don't I just do that every day now?
Marley Sola (01:05:21):
Yeah, exactly. Right. And I guess that goes back to what we were saying before, even with your clients and then my students. It's like there's already part of them that the part of them that is happy is in there somewhere. It's just about
Brock Ashby (01:05:41):
Trying to encourage people to bring it out or
Marley Sola (01:05:43):
Identifying it and being like, that's actually a really beautiful part of you, and that that's something that you could focus on. You know
Brock Ashby (01:05:49):
What I mean? And what we do. Me personal training, you vocal coaching and doing what you do can help them realise that obviously we're going in there with a thing. They want to get better at singing. You have to do that first. But what comes with that is everything else, right?
Marley Sola (01:06:03):
It's like life changing. And I know that for myself, it changes me too to know these people that are changing. Yeah, bro.
Brock Ashby (01:06:14):
I got three questions to wrap up. Okay. I'm going to put you on the spot. This is the Better with Brock podcast, right? It's all about becoming better. I didn't want to narrow it down to fitness because sometimes I have other interests becoming better in different ways. But I have three questions. What is one quote that has helped you become better, or one that you think back to where you're like, okay, it lifts you up, it makes your day better, it pumps you up. It does whatever it does.
Marley Sola (01:06:45):
Yeah. I have two or two, if you don't mind me. So I was at church on Sunday, and because I'm a follower of Jesus, and I guess just to go into that a little bit, it's because I feel like reading the word of God and the Bible explains so many things in life. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like Jesus was the perfect example of how we should live our lives. He was selfless. He was loving his unconditional love. He was ready to put himself on the line for us. And the preacher was basically saying, he's like, everyone always talks about what would Jesus do that quote's like, I don't
Brock Ashby (01:07:28):
Know, wwjd.
Marley Sola (01:07:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's it, right? But then he's like, why don't you look at it and be like, what did Jesus do? Do you know what I mean? Instead of being like wood, if he have done, if he was here, it's like he's already done it. You know what I mean? And for me, that's a beautiful thing to reflect upon because I feel like it gives me a clear example of actually something that's already, it's almost like, do this and this and that. You know what I mean? It's already there. Instead of being like, why? What would, because we can get into so many different scenarios in our head, you know what I mean? And Jesus is an example, me personally, and I'm like, man, those things are very amazing things that he has done and a pretty clear road to it. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (01:08:28):
The answer's already there. Yeah.
Marley Sola (01:08:30):
Well, the answer's all the plans already there. Do you know what I mean? He's given you the eight week Jesus plan.
Brock Ashby (01:08:38):
You just got to subscribe to it,
Marley Sola (01:08:40):
And it's going to cost a lot, but do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I guess that's one of the crates that he was saying. He's like, don't want what Jesus would do, but just actually read and see what Jesus did do. So there's one of them, and then another one is Atoki from back home. Oh, yeah. Brock's actually a Kiwi. It's not bad. It's not batter with Brock Ashby
Brock Ashby (01:09:10):
Called Brock, KU England
Marley Sola (01:09:12):
Called
Brock Ashby (01:09:12):
Freedom Kupa.
Marley Sola (01:09:13):
Yeah, that's it. That's it. The says. And basically it says, the KU does not speak of its own sweetness.
Brock Ashby (01:09:28):
I love
Marley Sola (01:09:29):
That. And that, I guess just, yeah, for me, it's like, man, you didn't need a boast. You don't need a boast about your stuff. You should know. You know what I mean? You should know you're a ku. That's it. I love that quote, bro. That's awesome. Wha Toki. Yeah. What is that? A proverb?
Brock Ashby (01:09:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, I love that. So I read, oh, man, I have a quote that's similar to that. So I pretty much so from the days in the church where I was praying every day and stuff like that, I have a gratitude list that I read every morning, and I have quotes at the back of it, but a lot of them are Proverbs like scriptures. Wow. And there's one along the same lines as that. Let another praise you and not your own mouth. A stranger and not your own lips.
Marley Sola (01:10:18):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:10:18):
Same thing.
Marley Sola (01:10:19):
That's
Brock Ashby (01:10:20):
It. Prayer. But yours sounds better. I like the artistic way of expressing it, but yeah, and often when someone says a lot, say, if someone's like, man, trust me. Trust me, trust me. It's like the more someone says something, the more question marks it has behind it. You're like, I don't know. Or I'm a really good guy. I'm a really good, if you're on a date, you're a chick, or you're a guy, whatever, and you're like, trust me, I'm a good guy. If they're saying that a lot, it's like, why are you saying that a lot though?
Marley Sola (01:10:46):
Yeah, you should. I'll know. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:10:49):
Yeah. Just let your words or let your fruits speak of who you are or what you've done.
Marley Sola (01:10:54):
100%, bro. I love that. And you'll know by the fruits on the tree.
Brock Ashby (01:10:58):
Exactly. Yeah. But if you're like, trust me, trust me, trust me, it's like
Marley Sola (01:11:03):
You've been covering up those fruits with some paint. The
Brock Ashby (01:11:07):
Fruits are not right.
Marley Sola (01:11:09):
You are definitely not a ku. No.
Brock Ashby (01:11:13):
Second question. A book that you feel has helped you or helped make you better,
Marley Sola (01:11:19):
I feel like, yeah, the Bible. Yeah. Just a lot of cool perspectives, bro. If you can put it just without the spiritual, I feel like a lot of cool things, like you're saying at the back of your things like scriptures and on your gratitude list, a lot of good stuff in there. A bro. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:11:45):
I love it. Yeah. The book of Proverbs is my favourite. But other stories and stuff like that, that there's such meaning behind it, there's such application. Even in today's world, it's not like a prehistoric book where it's like, oh, that was just for that time. Some specific things where it's like, okay, yeah, we don't live in stables or anything like that. Obviously that's not the reality for most people, but there's so much relevant things.
Marley Sola (01:12:11):
Yeah, relevance, bro. And even in the, what do you call it, Kos, like the stories, what do you call them, bro? Stories in the Bible, they're called parables. Parables. Even in the parables, bro, there's so much gold in there. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:12:32):
A hundred percent. Regardless of your belief system, you can learn something from that. Oh, 100%. I read so many scriptures in the morning because it's like, wow. My favourite is Proverbs, Tim Vo. I've probably said this almost on every podcast, but, and this is probably to do with my work ethic and the stuff that I was going through at the time, but lazy hands make for poverty and diligent hands bring wealth. And it's not about being rich. I always say that. It's not about, oh, yeah, I'm going to be wealthy working a lot, and I have diligent hands. It's about being diligent in the things that you want to become wealthy. So if you want to have more friends, you need to spend time with your friends or spend time trying to make relationships, preach that. And obviously there was one point of me where it was like, okay, I need to work hard to actually make a living. Because like I was saying, there was times where I was living with cockroaches in my bed and
Marley Sola (01:13:21):
I was like, Hey, there's nothing wrong with it.
Brock Ashby (01:13:24):
I was like, surely it can be better than this. So I would say things like that to help me. Okay, lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands to keep working, to keep being diligent. And that kind of helped get me out of that. But there's other things too. There's a lot of people that don't want to talk to girls or talk to guys anymore scared of what they think, or they would just want to do online dating. But it's like if you're diligent with that, you can have wealth in that area. If you want to find a partner, you just need to do the work. It can apply to anything.
Marley Sola (01:13:52):
Oh, totally. That's so good.
Brock Ashby (01:13:55):
Yeah. I used to read that all the time. Last question is one thing that you do every day to help you become better. This is the final question, then we'll wrap it up.
Marley Sola (01:14:06):
One thing that I do to make myself better, I asked myself, why am I doing whatever I'm doing?
Brock Ashby (01:14:18):
So how does that make you better?
Marley Sola (01:14:20):
Because it refines me, and I guess I ask God to refine me too. You know what I mean? Why am I? You know what I mean? Because if you're not questioning it and being like, then you're just there and it's just happening, doing whatever. Yeah. It's just happening. And I guess that makes me better. It makes me, what's the word? It makes me know myself more, Barry, probably. It's just like I learn so much more about myself. If I'm doing something really cool, say a big project, I'm like, why am I actually doing that? What is the thing,
Brock Ashby (01:15:07):
The outcome?
Marley Sola (01:15:08):
Yeah, what's the outcome? And what it could be, you're going to earn this amount of money, or you're going to get this amount of contacts. But then it's like, okay, where am I going and does that align with that thing or does the thing, do my extensions or the things I do line up to who I am and ask why to the extensions? Do you know what I mean? Because some of the things don't actually need to be there. Some of it doesn't actually as cool as maybe it feels, some of it's not even relevant to who I am. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I
Brock Ashby (01:15:42):
Think that's so important. I think it makes you to come back to what you were saying earlier, more intentional. Yeah, bro. Then you can do things as opposed to saying yes to everything and being a kite in the wind that's just going like, we, you want to do this? Yep. Okay. Yep, yep, yep. And you're just this random thing. Then you're like, no, Marley does this, so I'm going to do this, and does that help me get there? Okay. So even if it is for money, that money can help you do whatever you need to do. So maybe it's a time in your life where you need to, or you want to have that money to do the thing, or maybe you want to do it because you want to meet new people. Okay, cool. Molly wants more friends or wants to meet this person because of that, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I'm going to do that. But if it's like, I'm just doing it because of this and I have to not see my wife for X amount of days and be away from work from this, then you're like, oh, okay. No, Molly doesn't have to do that.
Marley Sola (01:16:32):
And it's like what you're saying though, it's always questioning those things because there could be the thing that you align with that's going to help that thing. You know what I mean? But knowing that this is what I want to get out of it and not getting caught up in all the other, you know what I mean? This one thing could have so many other things attached to it, but you have to look through it and be like, why am I doing it? And then just go for that thing real. Shoot it sharp. And I'm not saying I know exactly how to do that just yet, but I think that's where I'm going towards. It's like, man, I want to be intentional with what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. This is what I talk to my wife about a lot. It's just like, why are we doing things? Why do we do this? And why do we do that? Why are we doing this work? Yeah. It's all questionable.
Brock Ashby (01:17:30):
But I feel like to be able to do that, you also have to have a bit of a north star that's guiding you an ultimate goal. And that can be whatever you want to achieve, but once, whatever that is, and that might be, say for someone being happy, or maybe for someone being a millionaire, it can be whatever. But as long as you know what that is, you can have that intention of saying, why am I doing this? And often it's like to get to wherever that last thing is, and maybe it's happiness and you're already there, or maybe it's a million and you're at a hundred K and you need this to get to there. But if you have a North star, I feel like it's easier to answer those why's. But if you have no purpose of what you're doing, for what reason, you can just say yes to everything. Nothing that says, if you say, well, why shouldn't I do this? You're like, well, I don't know. I'm just doing anything.
Marley Sola (01:18:19):
Yeah, that's exactly
Brock Ashby (01:18:20):
Right. And I think that's what helps me have that whole fulfilment thing as that's why I like having goals out in front of me, because then I know where I'm at with things. I get opportunities too. Or maybe I create opportunities, but it has to be in line with that final thing that I'm, well, not that it ends, it's not final, then I achieve it. Ah, yeah. Cool. I'm done. It's like it
Marley Sola (01:18:41):
Keeps moving alignment,
Brock Ashby (01:18:42):
But it has to be in alignment with what you want to do. Yeah,
Marley Sola (01:18:45):
Bro. That's cool. But yeah, shit, I don't know half the time what I'm doing. Me too. But it's a journey.
Brock Ashby (01:18:53):
But I think that's the beauty of it. You figure it out along the way. There's an aspect of, okay, we know what we want, but we also don't know what we don't know. But as long as we keep applying ourselves, we'll figure out. You learn and learn along the way.
Marley Sola (01:19:04):
Yeah. And you practise. It's
Brock Ashby (01:19:05):
The beauty of
Marley Sola (01:19:05):
It. Yeah. Very sure.
Brock Ashby (01:19:08):
So where should people go if they want to check you out, your music or your business?
Marley Sola (01:19:13):
You can go to Mallow Studios dot CHC on Instagram. I'm on Spotify and I'm on Instagram under Ali solo music. So yeah, just check as a follow and if you want to, yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:19:30):
Easy. All right, man. We'll wrap it there.
Marley Sola (01:19:32):
Shopper. Cheers, man.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Barry Conrad. How's it going,
Barry Conrad (00:00:05):
Man's? It's good. How are you? It's great. What's the Bach?
Brock Ashby (00:00:09):
I just tried to do an intro and completely failed. I said The Bitter with Bach podcast.
Barry Conrad (00:00:13):
It was awesome.
Brock Ashby (00:00:14):
Yeah, vegetables just always on my mind. I just love them.
Barry Conrad (00:00:17):
And ice cream.
Brock Ashby (00:00:18):
Yeah. So can you give us a bit of a intro, what you do, who you are? Elevator pitch. Elevator pitch
Barry Conrad (00:00:26):
Type of thing. Okay,
Brock Ashby (00:00:27):
Cool. 30, 60 seconds just to give everyone an idea.
Barry Conrad (00:00:30):
10. Cool. I'm Barry Conrad. I'm an actor and singer songwriter, living in Sydney. I am South African, born New Zealand citizen still, and I've known Brock for a long time now. So this is good to be on your show finally, and have a chat.
Brock Ashby (00:00:45):
I don't know. You're a New Zealand citizen?
Barry Conrad (00:00:47):
I'm still a Kiwi man. When we moved Kia, Kiara. Oh bro. But when we left South Africa, we had to give up our citizenship. So I don't have dual, but I'm about to become an Australian
Brock Ashby (00:01:04):
Doing it. Yeah, I haven't done that yet. How's the process?
Barry Conrad (00:01:08):
Well, I mean, this is not really interesting for the pod, but
Brock Ashby (00:01:11):
I find it interesting. That's all that matters.
Barry Conrad (00:01:13):
That's all that matters. From the 1st of July, they've changed the law, so it makes it easier for Kiwis to have a straight pathway to citizenship. So you don't have to be like a permanent resident first. You can just jump straight in and apply. So from the 1st of July this year,
Brock Ashby (00:01:29):
Right, sounds like that's when I'm going to apply because I need to do it. Now that I have a daughter, I feel like it makes more sense. I didn't really have a reason to do it beforehand. I was just like, I'm cool just to be a Kiwi hanging out in New Zealand. But I remember when we were buying our place, I was on a certain visa subclass 4, 4 0 or something, and I had to pay more or something like that. If I was an Aussie citizen, I would've paid less. So if I want to expand, I guess I should get to it. Yeah,
Barry Conrad (00:01:59):
That's why I'm doing it. Yeah, it's easy to travel, get those grants and everything. Yeah, yeah, about time too.
Brock Ashby (00:02:05):
Yeah. So what are you doing now? You've been on TV shows, you've done theatre, you've done reality tv. What are you doing now? What are you working on?
Barry Conrad (00:02:19):
Yeah, well, I just actually finished filming for a new TV series coming out on SBS called Erotic Stories. It's very adult, something different to neighbours and home and things like that, but it's something different, a change of pace. And then I also just finished a podcast series called We Are Lonely and it's about connection. So I'm a mentor for this amazing guy, Alex Harmo, who is a philosophy student and also went viral on TikTok with his first video. And so dealing with the effects of fame and notoriety and how that can cause isolation. So it was really interesting walking through that process with him. So the mentor situation with the podcast, and then filming that new acting role doing that. And then I've launched my own show banter with BC as well. So that's been really cool. And just doing endorsements and ambassadorships and bit of travel and eating a lot of food along the way. Oh
Brock Ashby (00:03:15):
Man, you sound very busy.
Barry Conrad (00:03:17):
You're busy.
Brock Ashby (00:03:18):
To take it back to the first guy that you said, sorry, I forgot his name on the TikTok guy. Sorry, what was his name?
Barry Conrad (00:03:25):
Alex Hamer. Alex
Brock Ashby (00:03:26):
Hamer. Yeah. What video went viral? I'd love to know because, sorry, there was a point in TikTok where there's still viral videos, but there was definitely a point where you could almost post anything and it would go bonkers when the platform was very new. But was it recent?
Barry Conrad (00:03:44):
It was semi recent, but he'd never been on the platform before and he didn't necessarily hashtag anything or it wasn't anything sensational. He just gave his opinion about a half serious opinion about something. You should check it out. Actually, Alex er on TikTok, I'll let you decide, but he's like, I just put it out there with no expectation. And then 200,000 views on that one, the first ever video on TikTok. So that, that's a lot.
Brock Ashby (00:04:11):
So after that you come in with the mentorship, what do you advise him? Was he struggling with, I don't know. I guess being known or messages or being a guy who put out heaps of, I dunno, who put out content that was big because I know and being on TV or being on social media a lot, being judged by others publicly cannot be easy. What were some words of wisdom that you gave him?
Barry Conrad (00:04:44):
Well, the reason why he came on the show was because of that notary from TikTok and not knowing how to deal with that. Coming from a background where he already struggled with a bit of depression, anxiety, being away from his family, his roots part, Algerian. So also being someone that's a person of colour in a mainly white society as well, it was a lot to navigate. So my role in the show is to help give him strategies. So learning how to get out of his head a bit, work on perfectionism because he has such a high standard of himself disrupting his day. So for example, he might spend 10 hours in the library and see no one. So even something as simple as meeting someone for a coffee, getting a feed, doing something like that, making decisions about, he's like, I've got 10 ideas for these videos. How do I decide what to do or take a step? I think sometimes people can be so in their heads about to take any step that I know what to do. So my job, so to speak, was just to help normalise that, first of all, and to give him some strategies that are practical and for him, see someone that is similar to him that can give him advice as well. It's not like someone that's unrelatable or 80 and white or, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:06:07):
Yeah. Just giving him some random advice. But
Barry Conrad (00:06:08):
There's also a psychologist, it's not my job to fix our job, to fix anyone. It's more like a mouthpiece and guide and he's such a cool guy.
Brock Ashby (00:06:18):
But I think there's a balance of advice that is backed by research and all of that. And then there's also the anecdote or the experience, and I think that that's where people kind of go wrong with, oh, or this is what the research says, because I think that being evidence-based is mixing that with what you've experienced because that's what kind of also brings evidence like yes, studies. And then there's like, well, this is what my experience tells me. And one thing that I've, I guess I've developed tough skin or thick skin I should say, or toughness and resilience from stuff like that because you lose so much time reading comments. And TikTok is crazy for comments. I did a few videos that went really bonkers as well. One of them has got 7 million views and I was,
Barry Conrad (00:07:13):
What were you talking
Brock Ashby (00:07:14):
About? Yeah, I was giving glute advice and all these women just jumped on it and I was like, whoa. I looked and I was like, no, it's millions of views in a day. It had 1 million views. And then over time it's just been growing and growing and growing and it's just been going crazy. And it's like how to get an hourglass body. So many young women that are following these workouts and these workouts are just, they're ab workouts and they're saying, this is an hourglass body. If you do this, it's going to help you grow your glutes. So I'm like, there was no glute exercise done, and all I'm doing is just giving my opinion, which is the same thing. I wasn't being radical. I didn't have my shirt off doing backflips, and I wasn't swearing hardcore, I was just being myself, but I was like, okay, this is the workout and this is what I think. And yeah, it just got heaps of heaps of comments. There's thousands and you could lose a lot of time diving into them, and thankfully most of them were positive, but there are some negative ones. I did one that was kind of a joke recently, and I'm getting ripped apart daily, so I don't go into that comment section and I go into others, but it was kind of like a joke. There was this workout that was lying in your bed,
Barry Conrad (00:08:24):
So what were you doing?
Brock Ashby (00:08:25):
No, no, no, no, no. I was reacting to it and it was a bed worker, and the image is like this lady lying on her phone, on her stomach and kicking her legs up and down and saying, do this, and then cross your legs, but you're still on your back, sorry, on your stomach, on your phone lying down on your bed. And I was like, instead of this workout, step off your bed, turn to the left and walk to the gym just as a joke. And everyone's like, you're so not sensitive to others. Come on. There's people with disabilities that can't get out of their bed. They can do this. And then people are going like, yeah, I've done this and I've got amazing results. And I'm like, man, clearly this video wasn't for you. I'm not here to try and make people feel bad that aren't physically able to do that. But yeah, it's such a, I don't know if I didn't have the tools or say let's say had been on reality TV before where I'm just had to block out people, I don't think I would've handled that well because people are swearing at me saying, you're so dumb and you are effing this and effing that. And I'm just like, whatever. Whoa.
Barry Conrad (00:09:29):
Oh, did the table. I
Brock Ashby (00:09:30):
Think I just pressed the button accidentally
Barry Conrad (00:09:33):
To include exercise.
Brock Ashby (00:09:35):
Yeah, we're going to go down to it, finishing the squat. But yeah, it's a tricky place. How did you deal with being on tv, reality tv? Did you have any pushback? Was it all positive and that's awesome, or did you have to go through some things?
Barry Conrad (00:09:54):
I definitely went through a lot of things, and it was one of those situations where even on social media, it was before it was a thing, really, 2013. So I had an Instagram and Facebook, but it wasn't for any particular reason other than just to be on it and being on the show, just the opinions that people would have. Some people no profile photo, like trolling hard. You are not talented at all. You can't sing for shit or you look terrible. Or then religious people from my past saying, I can't believe you're dancing with chicks around you in half with no clothes on. I'm like, man, you know what? So it was a lot. It was an assault of all my senses and I had to sort of step back and not, it's so tempting as well, because human nature, you want to know, am I accepted to people like me?
(00:10:44):
What do they think? I put a lot of work into that performance, but the trick is it's like that element's on the stove and it's hot and you're still touching it, you're still going to get burnt. So I had to really, and it's never ending. Even now if I'm tired, it's easy to look at good comments for dopamine hits, but then jarringly get something out of nowhere and just say, man, you're no one. And that can really get you, get me down a words person as well. So even knowingly and knowing what my strengths and weaknesses are, I still go in and look at them sometimes when I know I shouldn't, but I'm much better now. But it's hard because there's no rule book for it as well.
Brock Ashby (00:11:31):
Yeah, I think that's a big one. Yeah, I think so. If we go back, say way, way, way, way in the day, we were used to having feedback from peers and maximum 50 people, let's say back in the village days or something like that. But now we have these people, we have tens of thousands, if not, depending on what platform you're on, whether it's tv, whether it's reality tv, whether it's whatever, social media, people can just chime in from anywhere. And then we have to deal with what a thousand people think of us. And it's so hard. And what you think is cool is different to what I might think is cool, and you have to just read it or not read it. Yeah, I think one thing that's really cool that Gary v says is don't listen to the hate, but also don't listen to the positives. And then that kind of keeps you levelheaded because you're saying it's easy to go if a posted really well and you're like, oh yeah, I'll check those comments and reply to them and be like, yeah, man, that is insightful. I am pretty smart, or I'm really talented. And then avoid the other ones.
Barry Conrad (00:12:35):
I think the trickier thing about that is when part of your job involves social media, you want to also know how it's performing, so part of that is necessary. So trying to separate that can be a challenge because you want to measure growth somehow without taking the emotion out of things as well. And looking at the good and bad, as you said, I try not to read reviews for that reason because good or bad, you don't want to be pushed around by people's opinions. Even when I did neighbours, I played a bad boy on the show, and this mom, I'll never forget, I was at this festival and she came up with this sun, and she's like,
Barry Conrad (00:13:15):
You're a bad influence. It's such a bad, I'm watching the show with my kid, can I have a selfie?
Barry Conrad (00:13:20):
So she went at me, but still took a photo. It was, it's just weird. People think you are the character that you play. Just perception's powerful, so
Brock Ashby (00:13:30):
Powerful. And it's hard to separate because for us, it's personal. It's us. It's not something that we've built. And when people judge it, they don't go like, oh, that thing that you created was terrible. It's like, you are terrible. And I think that's the challenging thing, man. Even when I just walk around, there's 14-year-old, 12 year olds, 10 year olds almost vlogging their life, posting stories and stuff like that. I'm like, man, I wasn't doing that when I was that age. But I'm like, they're putting so much out there, and if people say something, it's directly to them. It's like it's your face or it's your voice, or it's your acting, or it's your, I don't know, whatever you're doing your work. But I find it hard to separate. I think it'd be easier if I created chairs or something and people said, oh, that chair is disgusting. And I'll be like, that's fine. It's not me. At least I'm not disgusting. But to go back to that video that I did on TikTok, I'm the thing that's disgusting.
Barry Conrad (00:14:26):
So how do you handle comments now?
Brock Ashby (00:14:31):
I think, and this kind of touches on what we talked about on banter with BC going through tough things. Like I mentioned, losing my mom was very tough. You get this huge perspective of what's important and thinking about what someone in America thinks about my opinion is so small, and I've never really struggled with that since, well, I was 12, so I guess I wasn't on social media before I was 12 or judged publicly. I just never thought about how significant that was because there's other significant things to worry about, and I feel like that's what really helps you get through that you've been through a similar thing. And I find that people that can separate themselves have bigger problems. And I'm not saying that people that struggle with that don't have big problems and just need to do more and get over it. But I feel like getting a glimpse of what really challenging times are gives you perspective. What do you do when you, I guess have negative comments or anything like that? Do you have any systems in place that you automatically do or can you handle it or do you have to dwell on it? Do you talk to people?
Barry Conrad (00:15:46):
I think when I'm doing the things, I think when I'm doing the things every day that I know is going to help set my day up, it's easier to look at whatever. It's easier to look at both positive and negative comments. But when I'm tired, when I know I haven't been eating well or exercising and I revert to my natural bad habits or the old ways of thinking, and then I'm just taken out more. So it's still hard to see negative comments, but I also realise they're not paying my rent. I can't take them with me.
Brock Ashby (00:16:24):
It
Barry Conrad (00:16:26):
Also comes with the territory. The path that I've chosen is making peace with that. The path that I've chosen is going to have positive and negative feedback is huge. No one's forcing me to do it. Quit, then it
Brock Ashby (00:16:38):
Just stop boasting.
Barry Conrad (00:16:39):
It's just part of the job to be in the arena, having the fights, playing the sports. You're going to get feedback, you're going to get opinions and to not get opinions, just sit on the couch and just do nothing and not engage with life or people. So
Brock Ashby (00:16:55):
Yeah, when I was on the Voice and I got eliminated, I was pretty devastated to be honest. And I didn't think I would be as devastated as I was because previously I had been on X Factor with Morehouse, and I know what getting eliminated was like, and I balled my eyes out on stage. Really? Yeah. I didn't expect that to hit me so hard too. I guess I think I'm tougher than I am, but yeah, so I remember on X Factor, I was the person that was just bawling my eyes out and Ginny was there, Ginny Blackball
Barry Conrad (00:17:28):
Was there,
Brock Ashby (00:17:29):
And I remember I didn't know her too well, but I was hugging her crying and
Barry Conrad (00:17:33):
I was
Brock Ashby (00:17:33):
Like, man, what am I doing? What's going on here? And I couldn't stop for ages. I didn't talk to anyone. And I remember the night that we got eliminated, even though we still came forth, we still got signed to Sony, and I knew that was going to happen. I was just devastated. I felt like there'd been so much work put up it, I'm so invested in it, and then it kind of just falls flat on its face, but also it's in front of all of New Zealand. So yeah, I just cried myself to sleep that night. All the boys went out, they're like, oh, we're going to out for dinner. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm just going to hang out in the room. And I just cried, man. I was like, I'm just going to go to sleep. And I probably fell asleep at eight or nine o'clock, cried my eyes out, and then the next morning I was like all good.
(00:18:13):
Sometimes for me, I just need a really good cry and then I'm good. So when I was on the voice solo this time without the boys, I thought, oh, I'd be okay. But I didn't bre my eyes out, but I felt really confused and really, what do you mean? Kind of just what just happened. I wasn't too invested in music. I was like, this isn't really going to be my thing, but then you're still giving it your best and you're still in front of Australia, which is a lot bigger than New Zealand. So I was like, oh man. And then I had this, I think the words complex, but I was on tv, the singer doing interviews and the magazines and doing visual interviews on YouTube and all this kind of stuff. And then I was just going to go back to being a personal trainer in the gym.
(00:18:58):
One thought I was like, how embarrassing. But then on the other side, I was doing it before, so what the hell? So I was kind of like that. So I cancelled my clients for the next three days. I was working through the voice too, which I think, not that I'm looking for sympathy or anything, but a lot of people don't understand that the voice doesn't take that long to record. You might be there for two hours and then you're out, and then you might go back for three hours and then you're back, and then you just go in for an interview and you're back. So I was still waking up at 4:00 AM doing clients from six till 12 doing an interview from one till three coming back, working from five till nine. I was still grinding, and I was like, yeah, I guess I was tired and exhausted and then getting eliminated in front of everyone.
(00:19:42):
I took three days off, cancelled my clients for the rest of the week, and then I just kind of sat at home and just thought, I just, yeah, it was weird. I didn't really sit on my phone or I just kind of put on music and sat around. I didn't really leave the house maybe just to work out, but I just really wanted to sort out my life. It felt weird. I was semi invested into music, and then I met Kelly Rowland, and then I was like, whoa, this world is so big that the potential, the gravity of that situation could have been huge. Like, oh, maybe she'll invite me back to America. All these thoughts kind of go, but then on the other side, maybe nothing changes and you're just the same person that was just on a reality TV show and you have to move on.
(00:20:22):
And that's kind of what happened to me. It definitely helped with being known and being seen on tv. But yeah, it was just this kind of big weird kind of thing, and I didn't know how to do it. I definitely cried to help deal with it, but at the end I was just like, okay, it is what it is. But I felt to deal with that, I needed time and space and I called people and I talked to people, but I also needed to just sit there and think, which I feel is really hard to do these days with phones and with busy lives and stuff like that. How did you deal with
Barry Conrad (00:20:55):
Being eliminated?
Brock Ashby (00:20:56):
Yeah, going on and off TV because you were on
Barry Conrad (00:21:00):
All
Brock Ashby (00:21:00):
That kind
Barry Conrad (00:21:01):
Of stuff. Yeah, well, with X Factor, I had flirted with reality TV before. I'm not going to mention any shows, but I decided within myself, I'm never doing that again. It's not my thing because I was at a crossroads. Do I still even want to be a performer in any way? At that time, I was like, I've been around. I was hustling hard, singing, background vocals, touring, writing for people, dah, dah, dah. It's tiring to do, especially when it's not always an immediate payoff. And so doing that, while my second mom was sick at the time, she encouraged me, actually just go for it. I said no to the show. Someone that we know was working with the producers, and he was like, oh, you should come and audition. And I actually didn't turn up to the audition. The first one I was having stake with my mates in Darling Harbour, and he was like, bro, isn't your audition today?
(00:21:57):
I'm like, yep. I actually didn't turn up. And then it was a day later where I spoke to Audrey again and she was in a bad way, my second mom, and she's like, you have to do it. You just have to go for whatever you want to do. Just put yourself their life short. And I gathered my tail from between my legs and I was like, is that still available for me to come? And they flew me down for the very final day of auditions in Melbourne, did it, got in and just went for it. And it was an amazing experience. It was the hardest thing and the one of the best things that I've done, I lost my second mom the very first day of when filming started for the bootcamp, but then equally, I got an amazing platform from it. I learned so much a pressure cooker of performing live, made some amazing friends, but when I was eliminated, it wasn't as hard as maybe what I thought because I had lost Audrey, I actually felt more empowered, which sounds really like a bullshit answer, but I'm being honest with that. No, I can see how that,
Brock Ashby (00:23:06):
I can see that.
Barry Conrad (00:23:07):
And I also, I'm resourceful. I got eliminated. I was in the top 10 and everything, which is great. I was in the top 10, which is great. And then also there was a tour for the top five, which I wasn't part of, and I'm like, I need to be on this tour. So I just hit people up and got on the tour and still. So I grew my platform quite significantly at the time and was able to use that and then monetize my interest. So it was positive in that way. I did get burger thrown at me though. I was walking down the street and someone threw a big Meg epi me. I'm like, wow. So I know why you're a piece of shit. You can't sing for shit. You're not talented. Who do you think you are? A stranger, total stranger. Crazy. It got to the point where, so this is the aftermath where I wouldn't go to the movies before the lights went down and I wouldn't leave before the lights. So that was my own projection. I was paranoid. I was afraid because you don't know who's going to throw a bird. It's funny now, but at the time I was like, but
Brock Ashby (00:24:13):
Yeah, at
Barry Conrad (00:24:13):
The time, that's not funny. And a waste of a Big Mac too.
Brock Ashby (00:24:16):
Seriously, man, what's that? 500 calories
Barry Conrad (00:24:17):
Down the drain and down the drain. You could have just given it to me. But also the tabloids were writing things about a love triangle between me and Danny Mano and other contestants. It was just like, I got that too. You know how it is. To answer your question, it's a long-winded way of saying I didn't struggle as much with the elimination because of the loss of Audrey. And also it's a sting, as you said, you're in front of the whole nation. So we are trained to believe, don't care what people think, just focus on you. But I think we are wired for connection and to care. It's okay to care. I think it just depends. It depends on what you do with that and how you process it. But I think it's naive to say, don't care. How would we survive? It's not part of our survival.
Brock Ashby (00:25:11):
I've struggled with that a lot. I've had a lot of people give me that advice too, just worry about you, your own competition's in the mirror, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, I thrive off that. And that's why I think it's important for me to be around people that challenge me or people that are better than me because then I actually rise up to that tried. Yeah, let's just be a bit of Brock and,
(00:25:36):
And for me, that doesn't work. It's really hard. And it may not be the healthiest motivation, but for example, when mum passed away, I had the most motivational years of my life because I was like, I'm going to do you proud. And I still have that fire inside me, but I guess it's not as strong because 12 years have passed. But when that happened, I was doing anything and everything, staying up late, waking up early, not sleeping, doing all that. And maybe it's not the smartest way to go about it, but that motivation is what drove me. And then it's the same thing as in when I was a personal trainer, I would compare myself to other trainers in the room and say, how busy are they? How good are they? How can I be better? So I think it can be healthy, I guess it just depends how you do it. I think it's not wise to do it to people that are on a different level to you. If they're in chapter 80 of their life and you're in chapter 30 and they have a house and three cars and this life that you adore and they travel and then you are this student that has no money and you're like, man, I'm a failure. But they were like that when they were age. So I think that that's when it gets dangerous comparison and things like that.
Barry Conrad (00:26:48):
I also think social media is incredible and also it's such a slippery slope when it comes to comparison because we all post mainly what I'd like to say generally our best moments or highlights. And we know that logically, but we still, it's hard not to look visually. We're wired visually as men, particularly if you can look at something, your brain just automatically goes to comparison. So I get what you're saying about chapter 80 and chapter 30. I wonder if that would be different without social media and you're just meeting people and realising that and having a conversation, whereas looking, oh, I've got 10 Bentleys behind me and I grind. You sleep by grind, all that bullshit. So I think realising that perception is very, very, very powerful. And don't underestimate what you're looking at. Even with who I follow, I had to unfollow a lot of people because, not because they're bad people, but because you got to know your weaknesses. And if it's hard to look at that, if it's going to send you down a spiral of comparison, just don't look at it. Or for me, for example, I try not to schedule time on social media, almost like with my fasting. So I have a window jump in, do the work, get out, because if I start doom scrolling, man, then I get into my head, well, they get better abs or they're more successful with the acting roles, or they can sing better. It's like, it's not, it's silly.
Brock Ashby (00:28:21):
Yeah, that's tricky, man. I posted a photo and a video yesterday, so yesterday I was playing around with video editing apps and photo editing apps, and I managed to edit my chest, bigger arms, bigger, lots bigger. And I put it, oh, my phone's recording. But it's subtle difference, but I look like a lot more muscular. And if men saw it, it would be more desirable or more aspirational or more motivational and more like, oh, see that coach, he's huge. I want to look like him. And it's not too different, but it's different enough to slowly skew someone's perspective. And I think that's the danger of it. And that's with editing. And you can edit videos now. That's crazy. That's a trip. Yeah, man. So I went into this app and it was waste, and I'll just slide this thing up and down and my waist was getting bigger and smaller on
Barry Conrad (00:29:22):
A video,
Brock Ashby (00:29:23):
On a video. So I posted it, check out my Instagram after this or I'll show you and yeah, I could slide it up and down. Same with my butt. So you click this, but thing. And I just did it for lulls. I was just like, okay, I'll make it bigger. I'll just see how I could make it so extreme. And then there was enhance this thing and you make the magnify bigger or smaller. And so I put it on my chest and just put enhance, and then my chest went bigger, then I put it on my arms, and then I made that bigger, and then it was skin, so I made it smooth and then it was taller, so I hit taller and it just kind of stretched my legs out a little bit, but still looked a little bit normal, but I just looked and it's a big difference.
(00:30:03):
But each one is small, and if you just saw the video on its own, you'd think, man, this guy, that's just him. But I put them side by side, so you could see the subtle difference. And it's tricky, man. You look at that and it's that whole chapter 30 chapter 80 thing, someone starting off their transformation, just first day to the gym would look at that edited video of Brock and go like, man, this is too much. I can't achieve that. I might just give up. Or Wow, I want to be like him. But then that guy is an edited person that's not attainable, achievable, naturally.
Barry Conrad (00:30:37):
It makes you also look at then, I mean a lot of celebrities out there who say, oh, this is my skin routine. But then people will say in the comments, post it without the filter putting a filter on, I can't stand that. You know what I'm saying? Or it's similar to even the Kardashians not calling them up, but people like that who people look up to females mainly, but what if their videos are, I had no idea you could even do that in these videos. I'm like, that is crazy. Yeah, that is insane.
Brock Ashby (00:31:05):
Yeah, that blew my mind. When you see the celebrity photos and they're like 2002, 2012, 2022, then you can start to see the differences. But I think we're kind of throwing a lot of shade on social media, or not shade, but just I guess talking about the challenges of it, what do you think the benefits are? Because you were saying before, it's like a double-edged sword. You can go down and doom scroll and feel terrible about yourself. And I was actually reading a study, I'll get to the positive side soon, but I was reading a study yesterday on filters and negative, and people use filters because they have a negative self-image and it makes them feel better about themselves when they post. And then other people, I guess think that that's them, and then they feel better about themselves, then they have to keep using the filter, but then their negative self-image keeps getting worse.
(00:32:02):
But it's weird. Their online personas getting better or increased, but then their self-image and what they think of themselves as actually getting worse, and it was showing that in the study, and I'll put it somewhere in the show notes or something, and I wish I had more specifics, but it was more of a spiral than anything else. And I feel like, and this is just me personally speaking, not what the study said, but you just kind of don't use it. I feel like that's the best way for it. And it's challenging because some people might feel like, well, I don't feel like posting if I can't use a filter or something like that. But then I think in the long term, it's not doing much for you. I feel like in the long-term, it will just get worse and worse and worse because as we get older, we may need people send me things like, oh, you should get Botox and stuff.
(00:32:57):
They say that, yeah, I'm like, I don't want to, man. I'm like, wows. Yeah. This guy said to me the other day, he's like, oh, I just shaved my head and I posted getting a shaved head, and he's like, oh, if only you got Botox here and got a filler hair, that would make you look so much better. And I was like, man, I can't believe this guy. I was like, this guy, number one, why would you send that? And number two, shut up, man. I don't want to do that. It's true. That's how you want to do it and stuff. But yeah, anyway, that's the kind of negative side out of there. I feel like it can be a spiral, but it can also be beneficial. And ultimately it's led to us doing work, doing jobs that we potentially wouldn't have been able to do 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, depending on which platforms you utilise. What would you say the biggest positive of, I guess, putting your life out there publicly is?
Barry Conrad (00:33:49):
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is connection. And I've said that that word a lot during this podcast, but it's true. You get to connect with people in a way that you might not ever get to do because it makes the world so small. You can post one photo, one video with a message. And not to say that I'm not trying to be a role model. It's not like, that's not what I mean. It's more I can share my work, I can share my day, I can share the things that I find funny, things I find meaningful, things I feel strongly about as well. And I think that's one thing. Another thing is for me, I make an income from it, so it's part of my job, which is a privilege to be able to say. So connection, financially, keeping in touch with even family and friends. It's fun in that way.
(00:34:40):
I think as well, it can unify people around, causes around good things. So much happening in the world as we know, which is an understatement. I think that's awesome for bringing people together around something. There are so many positives, and we have been talking about the struggles because they're valid, but equally, it's such an amazing luxury and privilege to have something like social media today. We can just, with one click of a button, we can have such a positive effect on someone's life. People that have come up to me saying, you'll never know how much this meant to me, or this song, or just this post that you talked about this. You're not thinking about that when you're doing it. You're just creating. And I think that's really powerful, really. What about you?
Brock Ashby (00:35:27):
I think one thing, and this once again ties into my work. When I was first becoming a personal trainer in Auckland, I was at Queen Street City Fitness. That's where I started off. And I was face-to-face, and I mentioned Auckland, it'll tie back in later. But I moved to Gold Coast and then I moved to Sydney, and by the time I'd moved to Sydney, I had gotten so busy and people were messaging me, Hey, can I work with you and train with you? And I got this message from someone who was actually following me throughout the whole time while I was doing music and on X Factor and Morehouse and all this kind of stuff. And she was like, can you train me? And I was like, sure. And I didn't even know how to do online personal training at the time, but I said yes, because kind of a say yes, figure it out later type of person.
(00:36:16):
Not that I'm trying to scam anyone or not have the chops to do it, but I was like, yeah, I can definitely do it. I didn't have a website or anything at the moment, but it was a Facebook message and this girl had anorexia, and I was like, oh. I said yes, but I also said, you understand that this is not just a personal training, a solution, it's a team thing. And she's like, yeah, I have a psychologist and I have this and I have that. So she had a team and even a nutritionist to try, but they couldn't, I guess, communicate with her in an effective way for her to understand that she needed to ultimately, and this is not trying to say that, just eat more. It's not that simple. But ultimately that's what would help her on her journey and trying to overcome obstacles of food and good foods, bad foods.
(00:37:14):
And I think that's probably the most positive thing that has happened just out of the top of my mind, because I would never have the ability to help someone in a different country through that. And I'm not saying I'm solely responsible, but we achieved the transformation that was so unique. I've never had another one like that because she came from this position where she was severely underweight where she came to a place where she was at a healthy weight and she was training and she was enjoying training, and she was no longer training to burn calories and just running just to smash herself. And then she was like, oh, I'm loving avocados at the moment. And I was like, yeah, awesome. So cool. I was always so clear that I'm giving advice that is from a personal training perspective, not a qualified person to deal with anorexia.
(00:38:06):
But I was like, I'll definitely jump in the team and help. And it was so fulfilling, giving feedback, and I would do a lot of video calls with her and phone calls and stuff just to really get to the bottom of it. Not that I was once again qualified to do this, but it was just so fulfilling to me. And that's what really stemmed, or I guess founded what I do today. It's on the back of that. And even though I'm not dealing with people in this specific situation, it's that I'm always chasing of overcoming something and becoming better and dealing with that. So that has been a big positive for me, and I know that that's just my work. But like I said before, I wouldn't have that opportunity if there was no Facebook where it stemmed from. And then Instagram came, I was like, I just had Facebook and Instagram just because I remember when it first came out, I just posted a photo with my friends at Sushi Cafe. We were just eating a rice ball, and I was like, yeah, tree, yeah,
(00:39:04):
It was like that. It was just like, this is what I'm doing. And then when it started to have more of a purpose behind it, and it was like, oh, well, I have this knowledge base and I'm going to start sharing it. And then it opened me up to training people now all over the world and stuff like that. But that's probably the biggest positive for me is actually, I'll say it's added to my purpose in life where instead of coaching 20 to 30 people in a gym, which still has great purpose and meaning, I always felt like I was called to more and to help more people. So now I'm able to do that through social media, and that's probably been the biggest positive. I wake up early and I am ready to go. And if social media wasn't here, I probably still would have that in a different job. But yeah, I would say that's the biggest positive.
Barry Conrad (00:39:55):
That's actually really powerful. And when you were saying it's just my job, I just was thinking it's not just your job. I think it's so good that you find meaning in what you do because a lot of people, a lot of people are just chasing paying their mortgage or whatever, and they hate their job. So it's so cool to hear that story. I had no idea about the anorexia situation. And with having your online clients, do you have a cap of how many, you can take on a lot of emotional energy too then, right? Yeah. How do you
Brock Ashby (00:40:28):
Do that? Yeah, so that's why I created different products. So when I first started, I was just like, I'll help you one-to-one physically. And even though it was online, I was like, I'll write your programme tailored to you. So if you're from Asia or Europe or Africa, I would contact you and we would work together. But yeah, as you know, it's a lot. If I have someone with anorexia and another person with obesity or another person with this that has struggles with their family and trying to, then I'm just like this. You kind of feel like a therapist more than anything sometimes. But yeah, it takes a lot of time and emotional toll. I've always been very good at switching that off though. That's good. And I don't know how I got that. I think once again, it comes back to the whole losing my mum thing.
Barry Conrad (00:41:19):
Yeah. How do you just turn that off? How do you get,
Brock Ashby (00:41:24):
I really care about my clients while I was working, but I think I was just so, I've always been so busy, and this could be a strength, a weakness, but I think I was always so busy not to think about it. I was just like, I'll deal with it when it's in front of me because I'd finish work and I wouldn't sit down and think, oh, my client, this and that, even though I obviously care for them a lot. And I would go over and on for them. I was more like, oh, now I have to do this. Now I have to post on social media. Now I have to write this caption. Now I have to write this email. Now I have to write a programme. And there was always this kind of thing going on. Yeah.
Barry Conrad (00:41:56):
What about your work life? I hate this question, but I'm curious. How do you work life balance? Do you have a system that works for you?
Brock Ashby (00:42:05):
Figuring it out, figuring it out?
Barry Conrad (00:42:08):
You're a busy boy.
Brock Ashby (00:42:09):
Yeah, but I think a lot of people are busy. I also think a lot of people aren't very effective with their time. It's kind of like half working, half scrolling sometimes. Man, side note, I will answer your question, but my wife and I went to the chemist yesterday to look for something for our daughter, and she was on her phone behind the till, first of all, step one that annoys me. And then she looked up annoyed, kind of like, how long are you going to be? And I was like, oh, do your job. You're not getting paid to go on Instagram. So that annoys me. But yeah, frustrating. But this whole balance thing, I think we're, we're figuring it out at the moment because we have a daughter, she's fresh, she's like four months old, and we're trying to figure out for me what time should I get up and am I looking after the baby so my wife can go to the gym? And she's amazing. She's super understanding. But yeah, it's a journey, man. I don't have much time for extracurricular activities. I'm not really sitting around pondering a lot, but I don't think I've sorted it out and I don't think you ever do. I think it's always kind of trying to figure it out. It's a balance.
Barry Conrad (00:43:26):
Protein. Protein. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:43:27):
Kettlebell. Yeah, kettlebell. Kettlebell with an E.
(00:43:33):
That's such a great name. Yeah, thanks. It's just a combo of personal training and my baby. Yeah, I think I'm figuring it out. It's always, it's a struggle. Sometimes things pop up and I'm like to my wife, I have to work late or I have to wake up early and go, last week I had to wake up and do some personal training in the city, so I did that, and sometimes things pop up so it's never fixed. So I'd say my answer is I'm not sorting, it's not a work-life balance where I'm happy, but I don't think it ever is. And it's really challenging when you love what you do. I think it'd be much easier if I had a nine to five and worked for someone to switch off and be like, yeah, I work 40 hours. And then I'm just stuff work. I'm all family because work is on Saturday and work is on Sunday for me at the moment. So I'm trying to get to a more official type of work-life balance, but it never really happens. I'm like, I'll just home. I'll post earlier and I'll just, from 6:00 PM or from 7:00 PM I'm just all my family. But then I'm like, oh man, someone just hit me up for a programme. I'm just going to write a programme. How about you?
Barry Conrad (00:44:43):
Well, do you switch up? Do you have a cap of a no phone time now after social media every day? Or is it kind of like whatever?
Brock Ashby (00:44:52):
Yeah, I don't.
Barry Conrad (00:44:53):
You don't? Okay.
Brock Ashby (00:44:54):
I advise other people to, and that sounds really, I'm like
Barry Conrad (00:44:58):
Do as I say, not as I do.
Brock Ashby (00:45:01):
But that's what I say. I'm completely honest because I'm like, this is good. I personally don't do that. Sleep seven to nine hours. I'd love to. Before the kid, I would do that a lot with my wife, man, we ended up having dinner at 5:00 PM bed by nine. We were locked in. And then now that's challenging, but I've never really slept that much. So I've said to my clients, this is what you do. I said, personally, I don't do this myself. I've got a lot of things to do. I try my best, but I usually don't hit it. And that's all I expect from them too. And the same thing with phones. I've always had this, I guess, sleeping talent where I can sleep wherever I sleep, wherever I need to. So I'm just sometimes because posting and stuff and getting back to dms and it was bad. I would always give the advice, keep the bed for sleeping and intimacy, and then keep work for the desk or whatever. But
Barry Conrad (00:45:59):
You stuck to that, didn't you?
Brock Ashby (00:46:02):
I'm lying in
Barry Conrad (00:46:03):
Bed
Brock Ashby (00:46:03):
Doing story questions, answering things, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not sticking to it. But I would always be transparent. I'd never lie and say, guys, that's what I do. You should try it and you'll be as great as me. I was like, man, yeah, I just do that. And then I'd just sleep with my phone beside me. But now I do it, I leave it out there and I come back into the room and it's like there's no phones and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's been a journey, man. There's definitely, I like the idea of this structure and this routine, and I go to work and then I stop working. And that's part of why I'm building the team, bro. Ash b hq. So that it's a place where I go, I smash it and then I leave and I'm like, I'm kind of done. But it's a struggle. How about you, man? Have you got a structure? Have you got a routine that
Barry Conrad (00:46:52):
Helps you? Yeah. Well, you know what? My first job ever was working at a library. I think I told you this before, but when I was working there, I found this book about seven habits of Highly Effective People.
Brock Ashby (00:47:04):
That's the first book I've ever
Barry Conrad (00:47:05):
Read. Really? That love. That was the first book I ever
Brock Ashby (00:47:07):
Read. Yeah, no way. Stephen Covey. Yeah,
Barry Conrad (00:47:09):
Exactly. Man, how good is that? And so the big rocks and the pebbles and everything and the schedule that has never left me. And I changed the terms and everything, but I do to make it more you, I do like structure. I feel like there's more freedom within structure, but my personality as well, which I continue to work through, is I can catastrophize when the plan changes, and I'm way better now. But you got to realise life happens and you can't control everything. I was such a control freak. I wouldn't engage with anything if I couldn't control the outcome. And that bleeds into a schedule. And man, someone could be late or you could be late, or maybe you couldn't put your jacket on when you were going across the stage or whatever it is.
Brock Ashby (00:47:57):
Or you're seeing Cisco and they
Barry Conrad (00:47:58):
Say, no, yeah, forget your lines, whatever. So learning just to kind of go, sometimes life just happens. And it ties into what you were saying about it's constantly evolving. It's just finding, it's going ebb and flow, trying to be wise about it, trying to be mindful about it, but realising it's going, the pendulum's always going to swing, and that's just life. Exactly. And sometimes I'm busier. I don't like to say busy. Sometimes I'm busier, sometimes I'm not. So when I'm not as busy, I can structure more, but then you just got to roll with the punches. That's just the industry I'm in too. But I do prefer I have a schedule for every single day, even when I'm not on set, or even if I'm not travelling, it just helps me to feel a sense of productivity and I'm getting things done and not waiting or being passive. Very driven. And
Brock Ashby (00:48:55):
Yeah, I think to take it even further, not saying that this is what you do, but I find a sense of purpose and routine as well, because I'm like, I have this thing to do. If I'm very like, oh, I'll just wake up and see what happens. I feel like I'm a bit of a mess. I'm like, I don't know what to do with myself. And that's why I like having some training every day or going for 10,000 steps every day or having these daily things that I do where I'm like, I have something to do. Because when I don't have anything to do, I don't think I'm the best brock that I can be. It's weird. I'm so used to doing things and I like the feeling of progress and feeling like something's happening. And when I don't have that. The other day was my wife's birthday, and it was so much fun with family and all that kind of stuff, but in the back of my head, I didn't do any exercise.
(00:49:43):
I didn't do jiujitsu, I didn't train. And then the next day I felt off. I felt a bit flat, and then I trained to did Jiujitsu on the same day and I felt amazing. And I was like, oh, yeah. And it's a bit of an unhealthy perspective too, like bro, just enjoy your wife's birthday. And I did. But there's this sort of subcategory in my mind that's like, Hey man, should we go lift some weights or do you think we could duck out for an hour and just go lift some weights? Yeah, that kind of voice in the back of my head.
Barry Conrad (00:50:10):
I agree with you. I also find more of a sense of purpose with the routine. And over time I've learned to zoom out and kind of go, for example, if I'm going to New Zealand to see my family, usually there's a work thing in there. But if I zoom out and look at life, hopefully it's a long life, I go, you know what? Maybe don't be as strict with your eating window or your training. Go hang out more because this is for a moment, and then you're back to your normal work. So it's about perspective as well. It can be so easy to feel insufficient or you're not doing, and it's the whole hustle culture thing. And that's also, yeah, it's important to try to zoom out. And also planning to do nothing is also good. Meaning today I'm planning to have more social. Today I'm planning to, I'm going to just smash a big no combo with the McChicken, mcpie Double Quarter Pounder, and let's, let's go. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's about having a perspective about it.
Brock Ashby (00:51:12):
Yeah, I think that's an important thing that I've tried to do as well is schedule the fun things. If you don't make time for them, they kind of just don't happen. It's crazy how rigorous you can be with your schedule. I got work and then I'm going to do emails, then I'm going to do a podcast and then I'm going to record this and that. And then it's like, man, where's your wife time at? Or where's your senior friends in the movies time and stuff. And then it's like, oh, it just happens. But it doesn't. It doesn't. And then you realise six months have gone and you haven't seen your best friend or something like that. It's pretty dangerous. I want to quickly touch on your fasting and your nutrition and your training and stuff like that. I know you are super into it and you've tried certain things. And also maybe we can touch on your experience with food. I kind of touched on it with the bans with bc and I don't want to repeat and just say the same information, but what are you currently doing with your food? Because obviously I don't like this saying, but it's kind of like your body is your business card type of thing. You have to be healthy and look after yourself. So what are you currently doing for that?
Barry Conrad (00:52:17):
So I currently, I do intermittent fasting. So basically for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's basically just delaying when I start eating and I eat within a certain amount of time every day. But everyone fasts, like when you're sleep in your fasting, it's a way to tap into stored fat and promotes autophagy muscle growth. And I feel better personally. It's not for everyone. I feel giving my gut a rest is good. And it takes the decision fatigue out of like, what am I going to eat? No, no, no. I used to do the whole, back in the day, six meals a day, body for life. I was, since I was 15, I was like right into everything. I've done it all and haven't done keto though. Dunno about that. Don't bother, don't bother. And then for the longest time I did paleo, that worked for me.
(00:53:07):
I feel like genetically I gained muscle really quickly with my business and my job. You've got to be leaner. You don't have to be, but it's affected my income and my job. I'll never forget a bit of a sidebar when I first got into modelling and I turned up and it was like 18, 19 and I started to fill up a little bit more. Not fat by any means, but the agent said to me, perfection is desired, darling. You got to lose some weight. And that just completely changed my life in that moment because I developed body dysmorphia for the longest time and still to this day, if I'm not careful, I can get into diet brain. So that's a sidebar. But that's when I started eating paleo to sort of change my body shape. And then I got into intimate fasting because I still want to eat what I want to eat.
(00:54:04):
I'm a foodie. Not everybody thinks that's a thing, but I love food so much and I don't want to give it up. So what I do do is when I'm filming something or I've got to shoot, I know what works for my body. So for me personally, you can eat whatever you want, ice cream guy. But if I eat a lot of carbs even the day before, I just look more puffy and just more inflamed. It's not fat, it's just what it is. So I try to keep things pretty clean. Clean meaning like protein and vegetables, like mushrooms, avocado, and then I'm just a bit more, just tighter and just together and I can smash my shoot, do that, and then afterwards I always reward myself with a treat. So after I'd have a shoot, I'll have something that I really want to eat and it just keeps a bit more of a healthy, I don't think it's wise to restrict yourself from anything.
(00:55:00):
You can still have what you want to have, but for me, the way to do that is with fasting. For some people they can just have a cookie every two hours. I can't do that because I'll eat 20 bags. So that's what I do. In terms of food, I mainly stick to a lot of steak, chicken, a lot of protein being South African steak is our meat and chickens are vegetables. That's so good. A lot of protein. And then I do drink a lot of alcohol to some people. I drink a couple glasses of wine at least most days with dinner, but I enjoy it and I seem to metabolise it quite well. I also train just three days a week in the gym, which is not much for 25 to 30 minutes, which is not much genetically, it's worked for me. I know that I could do so much more and I do want to have that role where I can beef up and get as massive as I can. I'd love that. I've never had a pt. I'll have to hit you up at some point for that. But yeah, three times a week, move my lifting, pushing tin, and then three times a week doing some sort of cardio. But it's not because of my one and a half lungs, I don't do long distance running anymore. I'll do heel sprints, so explosive. Or I'll just compound my activities and I'll listen to a podcast or think while walking. So that's my weekly really. So what do you do in the
Brock Ashby (00:56:23):
25, 30 minute lifting sessions? Just out of curiosity?
Barry Conrad (00:56:26):
So
Brock Ashby (00:56:27):
I'm not analysing everything. I'm just like, I just want
Barry Conrad (00:56:29):
To know. I feel judged. You shouldn't do that. I don't bench. I do four sets. I do four sets, so four sets of 30 pushups, shoulder presses with 20 kg weights. I'll do dips and I'll do tricep, you know what that's called, that I'll do skull crushes, my hammer curls and also barbell polyp curls and squats, body weight, squats. I do weighted deadlifts and I work and I just get in and out. I know it's kind of laughable, not that long, but it's worked for me. I do want to step it up. I feel like that's quite, I can feel myself plateauing a little bit, but it does the job for me at the moment. And
Brock Ashby (00:57:15):
Is it the same session each time or is it varied?
Barry Conrad (00:57:21):
I've started doing more leg work because I want to get my legs looking a bit better, but it's usually the same. I do want to switch it up because as you know, our bodies adapt pretty quickly, so I do want to disrupt that a bit, but that's my daily sort of
Brock Ashby (00:57:36):
Weekly situation. It doesn't always have to be different exercises. I think that's one thing that people confuse with workouts is that it needs to be different every single day. I think there's a benefit to changing it after four to six weeks because that gives you time to plateau. A plateau is a good thing, it's what you want, but then you have to change it after that or else you literally just stay at their plateau or potentially decrease. Sometimes you can go from say pushups, four times 30 reps, whatever, and then you could do four times 35 the next month. And that's a difference there. I think that's one thing that's really underutilised with people because even when I write programmes and people are paying me to write programmes and I write a programme, they're like, oh, how come I'm doing this and that?
(00:58:25):
I'm not coming from a place of arrogance, but I'm like, don't question the programming. They're like, oh, it's too simple. I'm only doing five exercises. That's crazy. And I'm like, you don't have to 10, you have to do F 45 type sessions every day. If you want to do that, that's fine, but that's not how you structurally make progress. You have to do the same things. Just like with singing. If you're just trying to learn every single thing with your singing every single day, you're probably just be kind of average. But if you're really, this week I'm working on this, this week, I'm working on that, and you have strategy behind it, that's the most effective way to do it. But I think three days is
Barry Conrad (00:59:06):
Heaps. Sometimes four, three to four days a week, but usually in between. I'll have a break. I'll give my body time to recover and the rest of it for me, I definitely, and again, this is just for me, I'm not preaching to anyone. I definitely think fasting has just completely changed my body and the way I look. Even in my twenties, I was so much more stocky and training way more actually. But I just think it has worked for me. Again, it's not for everyone.
Brock Ashby (00:59:35):
I struggled with it personally. I tried it when I was living in Auckland and I was personal training. I really struggled with not thinking about food. So you said you're like, it's all good. I just don't worry about it. You don't have to think about breakfast and all that. But I would be like, I was so hungry and I think for me, I wasn't eating enough when I was eating and I was overdoing it too for my level of activity, and I was training twice a day and all this kind of stuff, and I was trying to fast. I got to this point where I was trying to fast for 22 hours, 20 hours daily, and I only have this two to four hour eating window, but in that two to four hour eating window, I couldn't eat enough. I was so full and I was eating vegetables and meat, so I'd have a thousand calories and I'd be stuffed, but then that's all I ate that day. So I'd wake up absolutely starving and I'd be like, oh, I'm going to have a green tea and black coffee until I can eat. And I would train before I was eating as well, so I was getting weak, and this was probably when you saw me in Auckland, you're like, man, this guy looks exhausted.
(01:00:43):
I was like, just do it. I was still at that mindset, just work hard, just grind it out. This is good. And for me, that didn't work, but I do give that option to people. Sometimes people prefer it like you not to worry about it, just wake up, get a black coffee or whatever and just go or have water all day and all that kind of stuff. And just for some people it helps with calorie control as well. People eat too much and then you just say, Hey mate, just start eating at midday, finish at eight or six or whatever, and then they're like, oh, I'm starting to lose weight. It's like, well, you've cut out a meal, and that definitely helps for them. What other food, I guess strategies have you tried?
Barry Conrad (01:01:26):
Well, I've done this and what
Brock Ashby (01:01:27):
Was your experience like? Yeah, positive, negative.
Barry Conrad (01:01:29):
Yeah. Well, I've done this six meals thing a day because you're taught, which is just not accurate.
Brock Ashby (01:01:34):
Fuel the metabolism,
Barry Conrad (01:01:35):
Which is
Brock Ashby (01:01:36):
Stoke it up like a fire.
Barry Conrad (01:01:38):
So I did that and then I did haven't tried the vegetarian route because again, south African steak is a protein, chickens or veggies, but I am not knocking it. I used to be a bit more like, oh, that's like W wow, whatever. But it's not, it's actually, I feel good when I just eat vegetables sometimes and I know it's probably better for the planet and whatnot. I do love fish. I haven't tried any other diets per se, and I mean there was a point where I try to count calories, but I do think a calorie is not, a calorie is not a calorie. If I had a hundred calories of chips, my body would process a hundred calories of potatoes differently or of mushrooms. I get it, but it still has different effects in your body, so it didn't really work for me. I do probably eat more calories now than if I ate throughout the day, which is really wild to say. But also just for me, it makes me not be afraid of just eating. I don't necessarily count the window. I more just count the fast. So if I want to eat longer, I'll just do that. It's not like,
Brock Ashby (01:02:50):
Yeah, I feel rigid. Yeah, I feel like with nutrition, this is a big mistake I've made before is the more restrictions you have on yourself, the more you have this tendency, underlying tendency to want to rebel or there's just too much restriction so you can't handle it. I had that massively. I think for me, when I was intermittent fasting, it wasn't necessarily that. It was more so the lack of calories, so the restriction of food, and I've talked about this a lot, but yeah, I've once restricted down to 1500 and I was doing that daily for
Barry Conrad (01:03:20):
Six foot guys. It's not a lot.
Brock Ashby (01:03:21):
Three to six months, man, I was doing cardio at night. I was lifting weights during the day and I was just whittling away. This was when I was in Morehouse because
Barry Conrad (01:03:31):
Did you feel amazing doing that?
Brock Ashby (01:03:32):
So much energy, man. I was jumping and I think it was because, and I say I think because I may have misinterpreted something and I can't remember, it was so long ago, but I had a feeling or I had a conversation with someone that said, you're too big from the record label from Sony. And I was so desperate to be successful and be the next one direction, all this kind of stuff. So I wanted this kind of, because I looked like a rugby bro.
Barry Conrad (01:04:03):
That's your genetics too, man. So it's like, yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:04:06):
Man. But the Morehouse video, titanium, our first one that went kind of big in New Zealand, my traps look huge, and I was eating whatever I wanted. I was training, but I felt great. And then after I posted it and we had the meeting with Sonia and stuff, they were like, Hey man, you should kind of be cool if you looked a bit more less like a rugby player. So I took that to heart as a young 18-year-old, and I did one meal a day. I did 1500 calories and I lost 21 kilos really quick. And that's a lot of man, our baby's like five kilos. That's like four.
Barry Conrad (01:04:43):
Four babies, man, four kettlebells.
Brock Ashby (01:04:48):
I lost four kettlebells man. And yeah, that was over restriction, but I had so much determination that I didn't, but I was weak, I was lethargic. I couldn't really hold up conversations. I was trying to perform and it was off and it just wasn't a good place. I definitely took that restriction too far and I feel like as soon as I had that moment where I was like, oh, I don't necessarily have to eat so little, I don't necessarily have to take away all these foods. I had that good food, bad food mentality, so I'd only have brown rice. I couldn't touch white rice, no way. Brown bread, no white bread and no carbs. And I'd only have tuna and water because oil was the devil and all this kind of stuff. It was a box that I couldn't get out of.
Barry Conrad (01:05:32):
And I can actually vouch for this. I will never forget. I was telling Brock before we started recording, I went to catch up with him in Auckland ages ago, and he was crossing the street and just looked so weak, literally so lethargic. You're about to fall over and so thin, you look completely different and just not happy. You know
Brock Ashby (01:05:52):
What I mean? Man, I remember in Auckland I bought a pair of jeans that were 28 waist afterwards I found out they were girls' jeans, and I was just like, man, well, there probably is girls' jeans that fit me now, but I just thought at that time it was just so crazy. It just fit the whole thing. I was just shopping.
(01:06:14):
The sizing looked more like my size, where generally the guy sizing is bigger. And I was just like, man, that looks like what I'd fit. And I was like, man, 28. Yeah, 69 kilos. I was just, that's so lighter. I was very lethargic, man. Looking back, I'm like, man, I feel sorry for everyone that had to deal with me. I thought I was doing this awesome stuff. So this and I'm so committed and all you guys are just lazy. Just put myself in this weird mentality, this weird world, and I suffered for it. Looking back now, I feel like if I fueled myself properly, I still could have achieved a lean of physique that didn't look so rugby and done it healthily. It was like, yeah, it was pretty unhealthy, man.
Barry Conrad (01:06:53):
How did you explain it to people? If people wanted to maybe say, let's go and eat, and if you didn't want to, would you make excuses? How did you deal with the lie of it? I guess
Brock Ashby (01:07:05):
It was bad. I would just say no. And in my head I was like, it's just committed. I almost didn't feel guilty because I felt like I was doing such a good thing for myself and Nate, he would take us out and he'd be like, bro, I'm getting dinner. Also, I was a poor kid. Well, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to sound like my life was terrible, but I didn't have money. I was a student. I didn't have money to go out and eat and stuff like that. He's like, man, I'll pay for you. And I was like, I can't go. I can't eat anything. The menu is too high in calories. I can't eat anything. And sometimes I'd go and just have water. I'd literally just sit there and have water and have a green tea. And I was like, looking back, I'm like, man, I missed out on so many awesome memories. I'd say no to the movies. I know that at the movies, people would be like, have some popcorn, have an ice cream and I'll just try and avoid it. So I'd just go home and work and write songs and do all this kind of stuff. I was like, I'm just more committed than everyone and what's going to get me successful and
Barry Conrad (01:08:01):
All this stuff. Well, I remember because on one of your birthdays in Sydney, I think it was your first birthday in Sydney, you wouldn't have your birthday cake then it was real. When it's real to you. That's what it is. There's no other way. But hindsight for me, I used to, looking back, I can see now how bad I was. I would lie and say, oh, I've got to help my parents do this or actually lie about it. Not even just to get out of not explaining. It's pretty bad. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:08:29):
Man. But it's so real to you because once again, it's us. It's not this thing that we are creating. We have to stand on stage or we have to face the record label and say, this is my shape, or you have to stand in front of this modelling panel, and then they have to go, you're too big with modelling, especially I've done a small bit, that's nothing compared to what you've been doing, but I got told I was too short or I was too this or I was too muscular. I was too big and all that kind of stuff. And number one, you can't change your height. So you're like, man, am I just a bad person? Am I just the ugly person? Because modelling is literally your face. It's like
Barry Conrad (01:09:06):
It's what you look
Brock Ashby (01:09:07):
Like. Yeah, they'll see you and just go like, no, and be like, move. And you're like, oh, okay. Nice to meet you savage. And they don't care. Yeah, it's a tricky industry to be in, man.
Barry Conrad (01:09:18):
It's also gives me perspective now because I can again zoom out and go, this is just what it is. And for people going into the entertainment industry, it's brutal and so much of it really is about things you can't control, like your appearance. So just keeping that in mind. I'm not trying to discourage anyone. Absolutely. Go for what your dreams are and what you want. Also realise so much of it is going to be out of your control about what you're born with. It's pretty determined, so just be careful
Brock Ashby (01:09:50):
With that. Yeah, I think that's the beauty of social media too though, because if you don't have this classic commercial look, you can create your own show or you can make your own skits. You can have your own TV show, you can model your own clothes, you can do whatever. I think that's another positive thing, which is really cool. It's look at Ed, he's not your classical, good looking dude. This, if you look from outside redhead guy who could look quite awkward and stuff like that. He's blowing up, I think, not that he got known by social media, but that's kind of cool as well to give people that kind of hope that they can do whatever they want because it is like that. You walk in and they go, no, you're not the right look. And you're like, oh shit,
Barry Conrad (01:10:33):
Man. Without even giving people a chance. But you can't. I haven't even
Brock Ashby (01:10:36):
Ung yet. Yeah, you're good, man. You're good. I want to wrap up with just three questions. First one, is there a book, and I know you mentioned the seven Habits of Highly Effective People, so that could be a good one, but is there a book that has made you a better person? This is the Better. With Brock podcast, I'm all about helping people to become better, whether that's physical, spiritual, social, mental. Is there any book that's helped you to become better that's clicked?
Barry Conrad (01:11:15):
I would probably say the same thing. Seven Habits of Highly Affected People because it's the only book that is throughout my whole life is stuck with me, and those principles have helped shape the man that I am today and how I approach my life. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:11:30):
What's the biggest thing that you took away from that book?
Barry Conrad (01:11:39):
The power of ownership and taking action, and that there is so much that you can control with your time and your actions.
Brock Ashby (01:11:47):
Yeah, I think one thing that I took away from it was put first things first. I think that might be point number one. I can't remember, but I still struggle with that today. If I have a big thing to do, it's really easy to send these emails that could be sent at the end of the day, but I'm like, oh, this is so important. I have almost nervous to make a phone call or to do whatever you need to do. I feel like that really stuck with me in that book.
Barry Conrad (01:12:14):
It's procrastinating inevitable. It's like,
Brock Ashby (01:12:17):
But also you feel like it's like a cheat code. You're still doing something productive, so you say to yourself, yeah, you're still being productive, so you're all good. But deep down, if you go another level deeper that you're just being a trying to avoid it. Yeah,
Barry Conrad (01:12:35):
I get it. Yeah. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:12:36):
Alright. Second thing, what is a quote that has helped make you better? Or one quote that's just really stuck in your head that you refer back to or one that you heard that really lit a fire to your motivation?
Barry Conrad (01:13:01):
I feel like I've got, when Brock came on for Banta dc, the thought bubbles, I'm trying to think. I think it's not, it's something that I subscribe to, but it's not by anyone, but your value is in who you are, not what you do. That's something that I have to keep reminding myself of, and it's very important for me personally to stick to that.
Brock Ashby (01:13:31):
Yeah. Well, once again, for us, we are almost what we do. It's like you are Barry Conrad, you are the singer, you are the person. So yeah, I find that very tricky because especially when I was younger, I was trying to achieve things as opposed to be a person or focus on the person who achieves those things. It was more so like, Hey Brock, who are you? And I'd be like, oh yeah, I've done this and I've done that. And I try and look back on the things that I've done as opposed to answering the question, who are you?
Barry Conrad (01:14:05):
It's also the thing about having come close to ing, you see life in a different way. Meaning if everything's taken away, who actually are you? If I couldn't ever be in front of a camera or have a mic or anything, am I happy with my relationships? What do I like to do? What makes me feel really happy and excited? It's not just about the things and stuff. So the value, I mean more that as well. What's my essence? Who am I? And I think I have to remind myself of that every day because all this, it's all made up. I like to say that as a joke, but it's so much is made up. It's like society and whatever. So at the end of the day, people aren't going to remember roles or songs necessarily. They're going to be like, oh, well, Barry made me feel this way, good or bad, or whatever, indifferent.
Brock Ashby (01:15:00):
And that takes a lot of time to search to figure out who you are. Such a deep thing. Who are you? It's like, whoa,
Barry Conrad (01:15:08):
Man, who are you? Brock?
Brock Ashby (01:15:09):
It's like, I'm just, are you Brock or are you Bach? Yeah. One more question. What is one thing you do every day that helps you become better?
Barry Conrad (01:15:32):
One thing that I do every day that helps me to become better is verbalise something that I'm grateful for. And usually that's in the beginning of the day, not at the end, because then that just sets up my day and the way I look at the world, it's easy to go at the end of the day, but I think at the start, okay, what am I thankful for today? Kid's just one thing, not overcomplicate it. And that puts things in perspective a little bit more and realising, because that also makes me go, it's not just about me. Everyone actually is busy, has problems, has worries, and joys. So it just changes the lens of life, how I look at life and how I approach my day. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:16:22):
It's crazy that you say that because most people that I've asked say something related to gratitude, and I developed a formula that kind came from when I was back at church praying every morning to set my day up. And now I have this kind of gratitude list that I read through. And yeah, it's the same thing. It gets the focus off yourself for the day. Obviously you have to do things so you are focused on yourself, but mentally you're looking at the day through something that's not like, okay, what does Brock need to do? It's more so I'm so happy that I'm alive or I get to do what I want through the day, or I have a wife, I have a daughter, kettlebell and
Barry Conrad (01:17:06):
Patina.
Brock Ashby (01:17:07):
I have a kettlebell to swing around and all this kind of stuff. And then I kind of focus on the things that I need to do or things that I want to achieve as well. And I say these things, it's so cheesy, man, and I say it out loud when I'm on my own, if I'm around people just sometimes I get sir to read it out to me while I'm driving or while
Barry Conrad (01:17:30):
Grateful for,
Brock Ashby (01:17:31):
Yeah, because written it all down and I just get her to read it back to me. And even that lifts my spirits. And I have this thing where I say, I am this. I am hardworking, I am generous, I am diligent, I am, I do what needs to be done type of thing. I put first things first that's in there, all this kind of stuff. And it's very cheesy,
Brock Ashby (01:17:52):
But it's kind of like, it's good, man. You listening to it internally, your spirit's jumping around, Rocky, ready to go.
Brock Ashby (01:17:58):
And then yeah, you go into the day and you feel optimistic because I find when I don't do that, I try to do it every day. There's days where I don't, and those days just kind of fly by and I'm just like, it wasn't an intentional purposeful day.
Barry Conrad (01:18:13):
I feel like, I don't know if you agree with this, but it's like having that portion of the day at the beginning of the day that you carve out for you for others as well. Do you know what I mean? You taking that time before the world can make your mind up and reaching for that thing. Actually walking away or sitting in bed, going for a walk to the ocean and saying whatever it is, getting Syria to read to you or being grateful for something. And that sounds so cheesy to say that and so cliche, but it really, really does change your day. And yeah, I'm a big believer in just carving out the first part of your day for yourself because you're just better for it and people are better off when you do that.
Brock Ashby (01:19:00):
And I think doing it before you touch your phone is super important because there's days where I'm like, I'll just check my phone, check my emails, and then I'll do it and then I never do it. And then that is setting yourself up for something unknown because then you could open your phone and you don't know what you're going to see. You could see a comment that says, you are the ugliest person that does this, or you're so stupid and you don't know anything. You're this and that. And then your days set by that comment. So it's like if you have control over that, you can set the bar way up here as opposed to down here. If you read a comment that says that you are this and you are that, and it affects you and your brain is so fresh when you wake up, I feel like it's like a sponge in the morning. And towards the end of the day, you have all these things that have come into the sponges getting full, but the first thing that you absorb dictates how that sponge is throughout the day.
Barry Conrad (01:19:46):
I totally agree a hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (01:19:48):
So where can people find you if they want to know more about what you're doing and follow you on socials? You can
Barry Conrad (01:19:53):
Find me at Barry Conrad Instagram and Twitter, Barry Conrad official on Facebook, Barry conrad official.com for my website. So
Brock Ashby (01:20:01):
Yeah, pick me up. Is there any projects you want to talk about or shine light
Barry Conrad (01:20:06):
On what you're doing? Well look forward to the We Are Lonely podcast coming out soon. For those who are old enough, look forward to erotic stories coming out very soon as well. And catch my show banter with BC online. Yeah. Awesome man. We'll leave it there. Appreciate it. Thanks bro. Cheers man. Get to chat.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 28 of the Bed with Brock podcast. It's now 2023, and in this podcast I'm going to give you five new year resolutions that anyone can apply if you're struggling to find any or struggling for motivation for the year. There's a lot of pressure on this time of year, and these new year resolutions are very easy to apply. They're very basic, but they stand on the shoulders of great principles that help you to improve the quality of your life, improve the productivity of your life, and ultimately just your health and wellbeing. And then I'm also going to close the podcast with five quotes to charge you or recharge you or push you into 2023 so that you can feel that motivation, feel that drive. And even though it's just a flip of a calendar year, it's just another year, there's no real significance because every single day is the same.
(01:01):
It is a nice time to sit and reflect because we're often off work, we're around friends and family. We may have more downtime. So it's good to realign what wall the ladder is on or where your target is in life because if you have no target, it's very hard to feel driven to do anything. I like to think of humans as arrows. An arrow is pretty pointless if it isn't in flight and on its way to a target, there isn't much purpose, and I think we are the same, and I think we struggle with our motivation, our push, our drive when we don't have anything to aim for. So if you don't have anything to aim for, I'd love this podcast to just encourage you to really make this year different. Make this year, the year where things do actually change because as a personal trainer, two thousands, there's a lot of people that are struggling and are looking for something to find.
(02:03):
And I hope that these points in this podcast really help you. So this is going to be a relatively quick podcast around half an hour because I just want to get this out there. I'm just at home recording this with my coffee, and I want to just encourage you really to have an awesome year. So I'll start off with the new year resolutions that I really want to encourage you to take on board to apply to your life. And this doesn't have to be a new year resolution for you, but it could just be parked in the back of your mind to help you be better. This is the Better with Brock podcast. And as much as I love training and nutrition and personal training, health and fitness, I love self-development. I'm always reading a book. I'm currently reading the Paradox of Choice, and that is awesome at the moment. But anyway, point number one is read more books. I think the biggest flaw in people's minds
Brock Ashby (02:58):
That they is that their education stops when they finish school or when they get a job. I think that with a world so saturated with many things in many industries, it isn't saturated with people that are extremely skillful at their craft. And this could be a sport that you're playing. This could be a business that you're running. This could be a company that you work for. This could be anything that you're interested in. I think you should read more books in things that you're interested in because as I said before, I don't think the world has enough people that are extremely skillful at their craft. There's a lot of people that do jobs, but there's not a lot of people that really excel that dive deep, that go the extra mile. And I think that's what helps people get to the top. And I think that that's really helped me have some longevity to my career.
(03:53):
Most personal trainers last six months. I posted this a while ago in a podcast that I did with Liz King, which was episode number 27. The one before this, the average lifespan of a personal trainer is six months, and I started in 2015, so now I'm on my eighth year of 16 times that 16 month threshold that people usually last. And I think that's because I find it interesting, and I read a lot of books. I've spent thousands of dollars, I've spent hundreds of hours at seminars, learning of the greats, learning of people that I admire in the industry. And I think that that's really helped me stick around in the industry and have the ability to help thousands of people because I did start in a gym once with around 20 to 50 clients. And as much as I loved that, I felt like I was called to more.
(04:45):
And as I dived more into the educational side of things and grew my knowledge, not just in personal training, but also dealing with people, body language, language, how to tell stories, I read a tonne of books. I just finished one called Save the Cat, which is on screenwriting, which to be honest, I found horrifically boring. But it was about story. It was about how to write a good movie. And even though I don't plan on writing a movie, I would like to write a book one day or something like that. And I tell stories every single day on social media. So I thought that that would be helpful. So I'm not only learning about fitness, but also how to craft my stories and how to deal with people. And that is what my job entails. And as I said, I think that's why I've had the opportunity to train multitudes of people because I have read more books.
(05:34):
And I just think that it's such a great way to grow your vocabulary, to become more interesting, to become more detailed and how you talk. And once again, if you do want to excel in a career, you should really be reading in your industry to help become better. Because just like the fitness industry is saturated with personal trainers with six packs posting workouts, not a lot of personal trainers actually have a really decent amount of education that is based on science, that is based on results. And I think that's where I stand out, and I think that's where you could stand out with your career and whatever you are pursuing. I had a client, his name was Freddy, when I was working face-to-face in Sydney, this would be in 20 17, 20 16. I looked after him and he would always read stuff to do with his work.
(06:28):
He worked in finance, so he would wake up and read about the market and he would read finance journals, finance reports and all that kind of stuff. And I was always like, well, why don't you read Self-Development and why don't you read this and read that? But it started making sense to me as he continued to excel in his industry that he was just like, no, I'm not worried about that. I just need to be really good at my job. And I think that's another thing that we can add onto this is like, okay, yes, read more books, Brock, but what books? Read books that are going to help you get to where you want to go. It's nice to read general knowledge and things that interest you outside of what you do for work, but if you really do want to continue to grow and provide for your friends and family, I think that learning is key in your space that you work in a quote that I made up that I don't know if someone else made it up.
(07:21):
It's very basic, but the more you learn, the more you earn or the more the more you grow. These quotes were what really helped me dig into my personal training studies. So that is New Year resolution number one, read more books. And that is going to me as well. I've already started, I'm halfway through my first book and it's only the 5th of January. So yeah, read more books. Number two, go for a 15 minute walk every day. And this is a minimum, but I think that in a world where convenience is prioritised so much, sometimes we have to inconvenience ourselves to hold onto the things that make us healthy. Human beings. If we're only pursuing what's convenient, we're never going to get our ass off the couch. We're going to work from home, we're going to be sedentary, we're going to order our groceries straight to our door, we're going to order our dinner straight to our door, and we're just going to really sit down and consume because that ultimately is what people are really pushing onto us.
(08:24):
We have so many streaming services, we have so many food delivery services. We have things that make our life easier, which I'm a fan of as well. But I think we also have to inconvenience our life sometimes to really hold onto things that make us who we are and make us healthy. And that is walking for me. So even recently, me and my wife have been walking down to the grocery store. We could drive, but we walk. It takes us 15 minutes there, 15 minutes back. That's inconvenient. We lose about an hour of day where I could be working, which would ultimately lead to making more money. We could be doing anything else that we wanted, but we still hold onto that because we know that physical activity is so important. It's important for your mental health, it's important for your physical health, increasing your metabolism, getting blood flow around the body, all that kind of good stuff.
(09:11):
And if we only prioritise what's convenient, then we're going to let go of that stuff. So go for a 15 minute walk every day. Everyone has 15 minutes. And what I do to make it a bit of a double whammy is I do stuff on my phone while I walk. If I'm on my own, I will edit videos, I'll answer story questions, I'll reply to comments. I'll answer emails that are quick off my phone. I'll do things like that just to make it more convenient. Maybe that's not the most healthy wellness walk that I could do, pondering thoughts and meditating and stuff like that, but that's just what I do to make my life more physically active. And you could do the same if you want. You could call a friend, you could walk with a friend, you could walk your dog. There's many things you can do to make it double whammy instead of just a walk.
(09:52):
It's a walk and a social thing. It's a walk and make some phone calls for work. It's a walk and I don't know, go into the grocery store and coming back. It could be anything like that. But I think going for a 15 minute walk every day is a great minimum standard to hold. And if that's the only walk that you went for that day, that's better than nothing. A lot of people, especially when the pandemic hit, were getting around four to 6,000 steps per day that I was coaching because they just worked at home all day every day. Family came home or family was already home, they finished work and they just didn't end up getting out for the day. And steps. Your physical activity, your needs levels are very important for keeping your metabolism strong and burning the amount of calories that you need to remain healthy.
(10:35):
So number two, go for a 15 minute walk every day. Number three, call your nana more often. And this is more of a personal one for me because that's what I've started to do. Last year I made a significant effort to call my nana more often, and that is simply because I was a pretty bad grandson for a while and didn't call her much. So I've made it a priority to call her, and I was calling her every week, sometimes every second week, sometimes every third week. It was tricky when I was getting married and we were on honeymoon and stuff like that, but I really made an effort. But why should we be doing this? I think number one, it keeps you grounded. And especially with grandparents, there's not much going on in a grandparent's life. They're very relaxed, they're often retired, they have a lot of time and they love hearing from you.
(11:23):
So it's very nice for them to hear from you. And this is just a basic thing. It keeps you grounded. It's nice to hear from them. But recently, my nana has moved into a retirement home and the last time I called her was the first time that she said, it's really lovely to hear your voice because she feels a bit, she's in a new environment. She's surrounded by people that she doesn't really know, which is good because it's keeping her social, but she also doesn't have familiar things around her. She's in a very isolated environment, and for me to call her gives her a little bit of something that she's familiar with. And it was actually really nice to hear that, not that it's about me, but it was nice to feel that she was a bit more comfortable. But I called her. And one thing that Gary V always talks about, Gary Vaynerchuk entrepreneur, he talks about if you want to know what's important in life, talk to 90 year olds and they'll tell you.
(12:21):
They'll what they regret, they'll tell you what they missed, what they didn't miss, and what they should have focused on, what they should have focused on more should have focused on less, all that kind of good stuff. It's great insight. So calling your grandparents is a good insight into that. And one thing that I've learned is that my nana doesn't really talk about her work of what she did. She worked in the vineyards, but that's not really the focus. She talks about her daughter. She talks about what she's been doing around the house and what she believes is important. And for me and my wife having a baby very soon, that's very important. She's asking a lot of questions about that. And it's not that we should just not worry about work and just worry about family, but it really gives you insight into what's important.
(13:10):
And the decisions that we make are often based on things that we think are really important. But when we zoom out and talk to people that have lived a great life of 80 to 90 years old, we really see what is important. So I do encourage that, and maybe it's not your nana, maybe it's your friend, maybe it's your brother, maybe it's your father, your mother that you need to call. But as I said, it keeps you grounded. It gives you perspective. And also one key thing that it does is it takes your mind off yourself. I found that when I have struggled with my mental health, when I lived in Auckland and lived alone and didn't have many friends and family around me, my problems were huge because I was just worried about myself. I wasn't calling anyone. I wasn't worried about anyone else but myself.
(13:51):
I was very selfish. And because of that, everything was just huge. Everything exploded. Everything was a big deal. Everything was, oh man, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. I'd get super upset. I'd lie in bed thinking for days about the small little thing that's happening. And when you have other people's problems in your life, you can grow. You can help people through their problems. You can learn from their problems, and then they can learn from you as well. And you have this nice exchange. And I think that when we're so isolated and selfish and worrying about ourselves and our problems and everything's about me, which I've definitely fallen into and tried to grow out of, you can become a very anxious and potentially depressed person because you're so self-centered. And that is a hard thing to hear. But I've been there so I can talk about it.
(14:41):
And that was definitely when I was at my lowest point. So calling your nana more often can keep you in the loop with other people's lives and help you contribute to others, which I think is a big thing that can contribute to your happiness. So number three, call your nana more often. Number four, new year resolution that you can have is play more board games. I'm a huge fan of monopoly deal. I also have an extreme liking for unstable unicorns. I think it's exploding kittens. These are probably my favourite. But I think that once again, with a world that pushes convenience and pushes, sit down in front of the TV and just watch this TV series. Turning the TV off and playing board games really, really makes your life more exciting. It deepens your relationships. It helps you learn things about other people that are close in your life that you live with.
(15:28):
It could be your wife, it could be your girlfriend, it could be your roommates, it could be your parents, whoever you live with, but turning the TV off to play board games or to chat. How about just chatting with someone without your phones? How about that? What a crazy idea in 2023, these are the things that are dying and these are the things that I think we need to really hold onto. I love playing board games. Me and my wife went through a huge phase in the pandemic of playing board games with our close family as well. I think it really deepened our relationships. It really helped us connect. It helped us laugh, it helped us learn things about each other. I won't spend too much time on this point, but I do believe that playing more board games with people in your life is going to make a big difference in the quality and depth of the relationships that you hold.
(16:17):
And maybe it's not the deepest things that you're talking about because you're playing a game and it's maybe you're competitive and maybe they're not competitive and they don't really care, but they just want to have a laugh. You learn stuff about people, and I think that that's super exciting. And I think skills of dealing with people and learning about people, conversing with people are skills that are potentially dying with dating apps where you can just swipe left and meet up with someone for a hookup. Or even I think the kids that I see at the gym, the younger dudes that talk to me, I think they struggle to talk with people. And maybe that's just being young. Maybe that's just being slightly intimidated by talking to someone that's older than you. But I do see a lot of younger people struggling to talk to people.
(17:06):
I didn't really struggle with that. I definitely struggled with talking to girls when I was younger, but I suppose that's a different style of conversation. But I think that with texting, with going live on Instagram and dropping comments without any potential negative feedback because they're never going to meet you, I think this is having potential negative consequences for the younger generation because they're not actually dealing with real people. They're dealing with comments. And let me tell you something from someone that gets a lot of comments. The comment section is not a reflection of real life. I can't remember the study, man, but it's a really good study. I'll have to find it. But there was a study where people inflicted pain to rodents, mice or rats in another room, and they pressed the electric button, and when they saw the effect that they were having on people, they felt more sympathy.
(18:07):
But when they didn't and they just pressed the button, they felt less sympathy for that person. So they were able to shock them more. This could be a complete wrong way to word this study, and maybe it's completely wrong, but you can see what I'm trying to come across is that if you can see the effect that you're having on the person, if I saw someone and said, you are fat and ugly, that would not be very nice. And I would never really say that. I wouldn't write that in a comment either, but it would be easier to do that in a comment if I never met that person or saw that person and didn't know what the effect that had on that person as well. So if I just commented to John 222, you're fat and ugly, that's much easier to do than walk up to someone and reply to them to, or just say to them, Hey, you are fat and ugly, right?
(19:01):
I would never say that. I'd never comment that, but I'm trying to get the idea across that it's much easier to do things when you don't know the impact that it's having. So the comment section is not real, and we need to understand that with texting, with social media, even people's photos and videos that people post and they're so happy and they're doing this and that and la, la, la, la, la. That's not what people's lives are like. I tell you that this is coming from someone that has, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of followers on every single platform that I use.
(19:37):
It's not real life. It's really not real life. And I try hold onto that as much as possible, but it's not. The photos that people share, the videos that people share is amazing, but often it's not how they're feeling always. You have to take it as it is. It's a highlight reel. It's edited, it's curated, it's what people want you to see. That's what you have to understand that anyway, I'm getting slightly derailed. Play more board games. It'll be better for your interactions and your relationships and connections that you have in your life. The last point, a new year resolution that I want you to take on board, stop multitasking. Multitasking was a term that they used for computers because the computer can do two tasks at one time. Human beings cannot. Let me repeat that. Human beings cannot. They can't multitask. Can you drive and text at the same time? No. That's why distracted driving is very dangerous and increasingly becoming more dangerous as people decide to text more often or call more often while they're driving.
(20:49):
Can you text and hold a conversation? No. I had a conversation with someone the other day and we were talking for a good 15 minutes. He pulled out his phone and then he just stared blankly into my eyes while I was talking, and I could tell that he read something and he was figuring out what to say. And while I was talking, he just completely ignored what I was saying. So I just stopped talking because to be honest, I hate that. And if you are a friend of mine or want to be a friend of mine, please do not text and talk to me because you're not going to be digesting that information that I'm telling you and it pisses me off. And I think for most people it pisses them off because people want to be listened to. So I would prefer you to say, sorry, man, I just need to reply to this text.
(21:34):
Bang, put it in your pocket. Done. One minute gone, two minutes gone. But at least you're not ignoring me. So stop multitasking. There's a book that I read by Johann Hari, his name is, and I cannot remember what it's called. Let me just quickly find it for you. I want to get it right. It's called Stolen Focus by Johann Hari, and it's an amazing book about getting into the state of flow. It's an amazing book about keeping your attention focused and being intentional with what you do. And there's an idea where if you're doing a task, let's say you open up your phone and close it, you open up your phone and close it, open up your phone and close it, say within the space of 30 minutes, it takes time for you to process and get back into that task. And if that's two to three minutes that you need to get back in and get back out, if you do that three times, so that could be nine minutes, six minutes that you lost out of that half an hour, if you multiply that by the amount of times you do that throughout the year, you're going to have a significantly unproductive year in comparison to someone that just did a task, didn't look at their phone for that entire 30 minutes, and then looked at it after the 30 whatever after they finished the task.
(22:57):
Time. Chunking is a really good strategy. So what I'd recommend, instead of trying to multitask and do things, this is something I learned from a business coach early on, and that is just simply to answer your emails from 11 to 1130 and then don't look at them ever again and then answer them again at 3:00 PM to three 30, and then don't look at them after that and have these intentional times where you're doing things. Same thing. So as a father, I'm pretty much well as a to be father in a couple of weeks, I'm talking to myself and I'm like, I want to be off my phone in prison, but I know that a big part of my job is being on my phone. So when I'm on my phone, I'm going to be on my phone and I'll try and be away from my family and be in work mode, but then when I'm not working, I want to be off my phone and be completely present.
(23:41):
I think that this multitasking thing is around being on your phone a lot because that's what a lot of people are doing. They are on their phone a tonne, and it slows down your work. It makes your conversations less deep and less present and with lower quality. So with the multitasking that we try to do, as much as women will say, we can multitask, which is what I grew up hearing all the time, we can't, no matter if you are a male, if you're a female or if you're anywhere in between, you cannot multitask to your full potential. You cannot do things at a hundred percent. You could maybe do 50 50, but then you're not going to hear what that person's saying. Then you're not going to see that car coming through the stop sign. Then you are not going to hear something that someone says to you that you'd really need to hear.
(24:33):
So do one thing while you're doing it. Just do that, and then when you finish that, just move on. Pretend that you cannot multitask because you can't, and that's going to make your 2023 much more productive. When you're answering emails, answer your emails when you're working out. Just work out time your risk, period. Stay focused when you are working work, when you're with your wife, you're with your wife. When you're with your kids, play with your kids. Get crazy, get adventurous, make funny games, read them books, do this type of stuff, and it will make you a better person. I can promise you that. Alright, the last five minutes. Wow. Okay, I'm going to rush through these quotes because I think and just give a little brief description on the back end, and I hope that these quotes make your 2023 better. Here we go.
(25:22):
If a man knows not which port he sails, no wind is favourable. That's from Seneca. Ultimately, what does this mean? If you don't know where you're going, it doesn't matter where the wind's going because you have no idea where you're going. That's a really, really, really simple way to put it. Now, if we flip that on its head, we could say, if a man knows which port he sails, every wind is favourable, whether it's a headwind, whether it's a tailwind, whether it's a sidewind, you know where you're going and you're going to do what you can to get there. But on the other side of things, if you have no idea where you're going, it doesn't matter where the wind is going. You don't know if it's going to be a tailwind, headwind or sidewind because you have no target. So at the start of this year, I want to encourage you to think about which port you're sailing to.
(26:15):
Where do you want to go? Do you want to open up your own business? Do you want to lose 10 kg? Do you want to gain five kg of muscle? Do you want to engage with a personal trainer this year? Do you want to have better relationships with your friends? Do you want to make sure that you prioritise Thursday night for date night with your husband or your wife? Do you want to make sure that you call your nana twice a month? Which port are you sailing to? This is a very important question to ask yourself, and I'd encourage to take 10 minutes, even 15 minutes just to think about what you want to do with yourself this year while you have downtime. Quote number two, regret what you do, not what you don't do. I think this is a quote from Mark Twain, and it's funny, I heard Livy King say this first on a podcast, RIP, Livy King and his legacy that he's leaving after getting caught using steroids and lying to over, I don't know, two or 3 million people around the world.
(27:12):
But anyway, regret what you do, not what you don't do, and I'm not encouraging you to be reckless, but I am encouraging you to be courageous, and that's a very different thing. Being courageous is doing the things that you really believe in. Being reckless is doing stupid things just because you have emotional urges to do so now regret what you do, not what you don't do. It's just encouraging you to really back yourself. So think of the things that you want to do and just go for it, right? Sort out what port you want to sell to and just back yourself because you'll never regret doing something, but you'll always regret not doing something when you're pursuing something, right? You'll never regret going up to someone saying, Hey, can I have your number? And they say, no, you won't regret that, but you'll always regret not going up to that person and asking them for their number.
(28:08):
So I want you to take that perspective into this year and really just do it right. One thing that people ask me a lot is just random advice, right? Give me some general advice. It's my birthday. I get that quite a lot and I'm just like, just do it. I'm a person that just does, and maybe that's been at the detriment because I haven't thought it out, but I've also thought I've learned a lot of skills just from doing, I was a singer at one point in time. I was a TV presenter at one point in time. I was in a boy band on X-Factor at one point in time in my life because I just did things. Am I a singer now? No way. Am I a TV presenter? Not really. I used to wash dishes. Why? Because I wanted money when I was at high school to do what I wanted to do.
(28:51):
Am I washing dishes for a living now? No, but I learned amazing things and I just did things. Don't be paralysed by fear because fear can stop you from doing things that you will learn a lot from. Maybe it's not your dream job, but it sure is a job that you'll earn money and learn crucial stuff through doing, right? I talk about this quite a lot on the podcast. Well, I've mentioned it before, but when I did wash dishes, I really learned how systems worked and I learned how to create a good system to get things done on time or ahead of time, and that has helped me run a smooth business because it's all about systems, right? You wouldn't think about it when you're washing dishes, when you're out there till 2:00 AM scrubbing plates, scrubbing pots, that shifts have just burned.
(29:37):
But as I look back and go, that was a crazy time in life where I just worked, worked, worked, worked, worked. It helped me think, ah, I was actually putting together systems. How can I apply that to what I do now? So regardless of what you're doing, there's always something to be learned. Number three, sometimes the reason you're tired is not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what brings you joy. That's from Sean Eron, and I want you to take that on board just as it is. I'm not going to really expand on that. That makes sense. I'll just read it one more time. Sometimes the reason you're tired is not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what brings you joy. A lot of people are tired, a lot of people are stressed, a lot of people are anxious.
(30:22):
I do wonder if they would have that same perspective in life if they were doing something that they really enjoyed. I can't say that I feel anxious, that I feel depressed, that I feel extremely stressed, and maybe it's because of my laid back life and parents and friends that I have, but it could also be the fact that I absolutely love what I do and don't feel stressed to wake up and do it. So that could be a factor, but obviously this is a individual experience, but this could help you live a better life for sure. Number four, success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he or she has overcome. That's Booker t Washington. Let me read that again. Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome.
(31:15):
This is a big one for me. I struggled a lot when I was younger and I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said I still didn't struggle with it, but looking at other people and what they have doesn't help your situation at all, and I'm still working through this because I look at people and go, man, they're so young. They have this and they have that. They drive this, they live in this, they wear this, and I'm like, man, I want that too. But they didn't start where I started. They didn't lose their mom when they were 12. They didn't go through this eating disorder when they were in their teens. They didn't have to live on their own from 18 onwards in cities where they didn't really have family. And I'm not trying to say woe is me. My life was so hard, but you can't compare yourself to someone who had rich parents and was given this and went to a private school and everything was handed on a platter to someone that grew up in a really tough upbringing.
(32:20):
You can't say that that other person is more successful to the other person because they've had to overcome different obstacles. I'm only talking about a financial situation here, but then there's other aspects in life. There's social elements, there's mental elements, there's physical elements, there's spiritual elements. So another quote that comes into my mind is comparison is the thief of joy, and I want you to take that on board to not compare yourself to where other people are in their life and look at the obstacles that you have to overcome and pat yourself on the back and keep charging through those obstacles because obstacles don't disappear. They just look different as you get older, as you get wiser, as you progress through life. So I want to encourage you to just keep smashing the obstacles and not compare yourself to other people. The last quote is, the world is built by men who are no smarter than you, and I think that's from Steve Jobs, and I just want that to sit with you while you plan out your 2023 and what you want to achieve.
(33:32):
I want you to know that the world is built by men who are no smarter than you, and that is an encouragement to me as well. I really love this quote because it really pushes me because sometimes I feel like I'm not as smart as other people. Maybe I'm not as jacked as other people. Maybe I'm not as charismatic or as funny as other people, but that doesn't matter. If you have a work ethic, it will always outdo talent, so keep working hard for 2023. I want to wrap up this podcast by quickly announcing the Built by Brock eight week challenge. That is running beginning on January 9th. That is Monday coming. So you've got a few days to register and lemme just quickly tell you what's involved. You get workouts. You have two workout phases in this eight week challenge. No workouts are the same.
(34:21):
Built by Brock has been going for over a year and a half and no workout has been repeated. They're always brand new workouts. You get nutritional advice, flexible dieting guidelines, your calories and macros for your goal at whatever rate you want to hit them. If you want to have an aggressive fat loss of eight kg plus in eight weeks, you can do that. If you want to lose two to three kgs, you can also do that for whatever your goal is. I have the right nutritional guidance for you. You get access to over six hours of educational videos to really help you understand educational principles around training and nutrition, and you get exercise videos for every single workout. You can also swap exercises if you need to. You get access to home training or gym access training. It just depends on what membership you select.
(35:08):
You can do the women's programme at the gym at home or the men's programme at the gym or at home. You get access to the Facebook community where I do post links, where we will be doing live calls with me, where I'm coaching people and answering questions. The Facebook group is a great place for you to answer questions or ask your questions that you do have if you want to, and you can post your exercises that you do for form feedback as well. In the Built by Brock eight week challenge is not just a challenge. You sign up to, you sign up to the Built by Brock membership, which is about 49 a UD per month or 36 USD per month. Now you join the membership that renews every 28 days. I just want this to be clear so it doesn't feel like I'm trying to scam you.
(35:53):
That's definitely not my vibe. Now, when you sign up, all the built by Brock members get access to the challenge, okay? So you're not signing up to a challenge. You're sign up to built by Brock, which has the challenge just so that it's very clear so that you can unsubscribe anytime when the challenge finishes. You can unsubscribe if you don't want to even finish the challenge and you have to stop for some reason. You can unsubscribe then too. So if you do want to check that out, go to team brock ashby.com. There's prizes to be won, which are valued highly. You get free built by Brock memberships. You also get one-to-one coaching with me, and there's other things up for grabs as well. So please check that out@teambrockashby.com and you will get guided that way as well. Other than that, I think I'm going to go now have an awesome 2023 and there will be many more podcasts to come with many more guests as well.
(36:40):
If you do have any guest recommendations, please email us at team@teambroadcastb.com and we'll take them on board and try and hunt these people down and have some awesome podcasts. I will be doing a lot more solo ones this year as well, like this to really get my ideas across and even I think I might really dive into the books that I'm reading to help you get some great points from these books that I do spend a lot of time reading. Other than that, have an amazing 2023. You'll hear from me soon. I'll talk to you later. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 30 of the Better with Brock podcast. Today's going to be a solo podcast where I'm going to be breaking down the five best quadricep exercises and why these can be for muscle building purposes, for skill development purposes, for guessing better at form purposes. I'm going to break down why I personally think they are the best quad exercises and other coaches may not think this, but this is my unique opinion that I've developed over my times of study, my times of being a personal trainer since 2015, and also just what I've experienced myself and my clients as well. And that's a pretty big information slash data pull that I can draw from. And then at the end of this, I'm going to be reading out some questions from my Instagram story q and as. Answer them on here I do, if you don't already follow me on Instagram, it is at brock Ashby, B-R-O-C-K-A-S-H-B-Y.
(00:01:07):
You can follow me. I do on my stories q and as every single day. So I'm answering questions that you have around anything really. Mostly fitness and nutrition, but also lifestyle, business and personal questions as well. So I'll be doing that towards the end. Firstly, I just want to welcome everyone to the Built by Brock eight Week Challenge. We are currently in the first week and it's been an amazing turnout. I love that people are doing the workouts, they're tagging me, they're sharing their stories in the Facebook group, which you become a part of when you join built by Brock and get involved with the challenge. And it's been awesome to see people really giving it a go. I called it the back to business challenge because that's what the start of the year is about, getting back to business, getting back into, I guess normal life routine away from we have this break period where Christmas and holidays, we are slowing down, we're often eating more, potentially not moving more.
(00:02:07):
So it's good to get that whole back to business mindset, okay, what's my year going to look like? And I feel like when you start the year strong, it really sets you up for success for all avenues of life, not just your physique in your body, but also other aspects that you care about, which could be your family, which could be your career and other things that you enjoy doing. So it's been awesome to see people making small changes, and that's what I'm all about. Some people are focusing on technique and form and worrying about nutrition probably the second or third week because it can be really overwhelming when you're trying to make a change and doing too much at one time can ultimately lead to a disaster. It can just be like, well, this is too much. I'm going to give up. So I'm a big fan of this one to 2% change that we make every day, every week, even every month, and that can lead to substantial change over time.
(00:02:58):
It's not sexy, it's extreme. There's no shock value and it's not going to go viral on TikTok, but this idea of becoming 1% better every day or making one to 2% changes over a week, a month, a year is going to pay dividends into the future version of yourself, which is what I'm all about. And that's been happening in the challenge. So I just wanted to say a big welcome to everyone in the Built by Rock eight week challenge. Now let's jump into the podcast with these five best quad exercises. The first one you may not be aware of, if you haven't done any of my programmes, it is the front foot elevated dumbbell split squad, and I was introduced to this exercise when I first became a personal trainer in Sydney. I started in Auckland, then I went to Gold Coast. But when I moved to Sydney, I really dived into education and I met a, I wouldn't say a mentor because we are not really best buds and hang out and talk and stuff, but Tony Ji, who was actually on a previous podcast that we did, he was one of the first coaches that really slapped me in the face and was like, Hey man, you need to really get smarter and understand how the body works before you really grow as a personal trainer and become successful, whatever that is to me.
(00:04:16):
But he introduced me to the front foot elevated dumbbell split score. I'd seen it at the gym a couple of times and I was curious as to where it came from and they all said they learnt it from Tony Ji. So I did a few of his courses and I learnt the beauty of this exercise, if you're unaware of the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat, it's a split squat, which is described as a static lunge. So your feet are apart in an athletic running stance as if you're about to take off and then you lunge down to the floor. Now, the difference between a lunge and a split squat, a lunge is where a forward lunge would be when you lunge forward and then step back to the start position, lunge forward, step back to the start position a reverse lunges, step back and then step forward into the starting position.
(00:05:05):
But a split squat, the starting position is where your feet are one foot in front of the other or separated in an athletic stance, and then you lunge down and lunge up without actually stepping forward or back. So you're stationary. It's a stationary lunge, and instead of just doing it on the floor, which is a standard split squat, sorry, I'm just trying to adjust my legs to get comfortable, which is a standard split squat. We are elevating the front foot and the front foot can be elevated on a step or it can be elevated on a weight plate, which is what I do quite a lot. So I grab a 25 kg weight plate or even a 20 and put it on the floor and my front foot starts on that and it's called a front foot elevated split squat because your front foot is elevated. It's not a very complicated situation, but we
Brock Ashby (00:05:56):
Elevate our front foot. And the beauty of this is when our front foot is elevated, it allows us to get more range of motion than we would if our feet were both flat on the floor. And with that extra range of motion, what we can do is sit deeper into that split squat. And a split squat is kind of just like a single leg squat. It's not a pistol because you have both legs on the floor, but it's a split squat where you are getting extra range of motion and you can really drive your knee over your toe. Now if you think that that is bad for your knees or bad for your ankles or bad for you in general, putting your knees over your toes, you need a wake up call. It's 2023. Now, we cannot be believing these crazy myths. Putting your knees over your toe is absolutely fine, okay?
(00:06:45):
Especially when your knee is in line with your toe. If your knees cave in or cave out too wide, then it can be problematic. But if your knee is going over your toe like a plane would land on the runway, then that's completely fine. And the reason I love the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat is you can really drive your knee over your toe and really sit your butt onto your heels and that increases your ankle mobility. So the reason that I like the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat isn't because it's just a muscle building exercise that builds you jacked quads. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The reason I love it is because it helps increase your mobility, which leads to a better back squat, which is the holy grail of leg exercises. So to get better at a back squat, we want to start with a front foot elevated dumbbell split squat.
(00:07:35):
And when you are working with me as a coach, I often programme front foot elevated dumbbell split squats before I give you any sort of squats because I want to qualify you and make sure that you can actually squat. A lot of people will injure themselves when they do back squats or say, oh, it hurts my lower back, or it hurts my knees, it hurts, my hips hurts my ankles even. And that's not because their form for the back squat is off. It's ultimately because they're not qualified to do a back squat yet. They need to increase their mobility. They don't have the mobility to do a squat. And the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat, help solves that. So if you picture this with me once again, we have a weight plate or a step on the floor and we step on it with our front foot and our back foot is back like we're going to do a split squat.
(00:08:25):
And now as we're lowering down to the ground instead of just going up and down like an elevator, if you're watching me on YouTube, then my hands are going up and down. If you're listening to me on Spotify, you might just have to picture this, but instead of going up and down like an elevator in the split squat, you want to push forward and backwards as well as going up and down. So it's more of an escalator. So you're going down and forward at the same time to really push your butt to your heels with the front foot and your knees over your toes whilst keeping your heel down of the front foot and then pushing back. So that's going to challenge your quads. So it's still going to be a good muscle building exercise for your quads, but it's also going to allow you to push your knee over your toe.
(00:09:06):
And if you can't, it's going to allow you to get better at that movement. And the better we get with our ankle mobility, which is ultimately our ability to keep our feet flat on the floor, but our knees travel over our toes, that's going to allow us to do a better back squat, which is the reason I like the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat. And the reason I wanted to talk about it first because this is your entry to a sexy back squat, and that's what we want, a sexy back squat in the gym. When I see someone that just does a flawless back squat in the gym, there's nothing better. There's nothing better than me seeing a flawless back squat. And the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat is usually the pathway to that. And that may not be done in one programme in four weeks, but maybe four weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks later, your back squat improves because most people's back squat sucks because they don't have any ankle mobility.
(00:10:05):
They have really tight calves as well, which can be the reason why you can't get your knees over your toes because to do a successful back squat, as the grass sit nice and low, we need to put our knees over our toes with our knees in line with our toes like a plane lands on a runway. So the reason I love the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat is not because it's the best muscle building exercise because it's probably not. However, it does make you more mobile and leads to a better back squat. So that's number one. That's why I wanted to say that first. You probably think I would've said back squat first or the leg press builds big quads, blah, blah, blah. This is the best exercise. No, I think this is better for sustained training and for a beginner or someone that's relatively new to training, the front foot elevated done by split squat would be the first exercise I would encourage you to get really good at the second exercise.
(00:10:58):
The second best quad exercise that I recommend is the leg extension. The leg extension machine has a bit of a bad wrap. It's a bodybuilder bro exercise, right? Everyone just thinks, oh, just warm up and do three sets of 20 on the leg extension, and then I go do my real workout. But the leg extension is one of my favourite exercises, and it's not because I can sit down and it's really easy. That's a great attraction point to me too though, for people that are relatively new to the gym and just want a simple exercise where you kick your legs forward and back. But the leg extension is one of the only quad exercises that does a specific thing, and that is challenging the quadriceps in a shortened position or a flexed position. Now what does that mean? That means that the leg extension is hardest at the top when you're squeezing your quads and you're at the top of that leg extension rep.
(00:11:57):
That is the hardest point of the exercise. Now let's do a little task right now. Can you think of any other exercise that does that for your quads? Just think of the exercises when it's hardest at the top. What other exercise does that for your quads? Let's look at a back squat. When we go down and we're down at the bottom of a squat, that's where it's the hardest at the bottom, coming up to the top of the rep, it's easy because you're standing up. Let's look at a lunge. Same thing. It's the hardest at the bottom leg press, hardest at the bottom. What other quad exercises do we have? A hack squat. It's hardest at the bottom. Lunges hardest at the bottom. I've already said that. Sorry. Split squats. Hardest at the bottom. Bulgarian split squat hardest at the bottom. Any sort of squat variation is going to be hardest at the bottom, but the only exercise that's going to make it hardest at the top when we are flexing our muscles in our quads in the shortened position, the only exercise that does that is the leg extension.
(00:13:02):
So that's why it's such a crucial exercise for me to give to my clients because it's the only exercise that does that. And if we're challenging our muscles, our quad muscles only in the stretch position or when it's hardest at the bottom, we're going to leave out the benefits of challenging our muscles also at the top position. And this gives our muscles more of a complete workout, if that makes sense. So instead of it just being hard when our muscles are stretched and the weight is against it, it's going to be hard at the top where we're squeezing. And this gives us variation, and this means it has a different resistance profile. And I don't want to get too complicated. This already is semi complicated. If you don't really, you're not new to to training, this is going to be relatively higher level. But if you've been training for a while, intermediate to advanced, the leg extension is the only exercise for quads that is challenged in the top position or shortened position.
(00:14:02):
So I like to do it at least once per week, a set of three, a set of four, a set of five minimum once per week because then you're getting this variation in resistance profile, which is great for the development of your quad. So in terms of a muscle building exercise, the leg extension is a must, and I think personally it has to be in your programme at least once per week. If you're not doing that, then you're really shortchanging yourself in terms of your quad development. I also think it's a relatively simple exercise. Like I said before, you can do it if you are new, if you're advanced, if you don't have that great coordination, it's a great place to start. You can just sit down, raise your legs, and put your legs back down. Let's talk a few technique tips with the leg extension machine.
(00:14:50):
Even though it's simple, you want your butt to stay down. Sometimes when you kick the weight up and you straighten your legs, extend your legs. If you're a bit lighter or the weight's quite heavy, your butt can lift off the floor, grab the handles by your hips and pull your butt down into the leg extension machine and kick forward. And that's going to keep you nice and stable. The more stable you are, the more weight you'll be able to lift. That's a principle that carries over in every exercise. So grab the handles, pull yourself down. Secondly, when you're lifting the weight, when you're straightening your legs and it's hardest at the top, don't accelerate so fast that the weight kicks up off your legs, comes off contact with your legs, and then comes back down and hits your leg. We don't want to accelerate that fast that the weight comes off our legs and then comes crashing back down on our legs.
(00:15:41):
What we want to do is we can accelerate out of the start of the exercise, but we don't want to accelerate so far that it comes off our legs because then we lose tension on our muscles. And one of the keys to building muscle is time under tension. And when we take that time under tension and decrease it when we don't need to, then we're potentially losing out on any gains that we could make. So I'm all about increasing the potential we can to make gains. So with that, we want to keep our muscles under tension for as long as possible when we're doing a set and for leg extension, that just means not exhilarating too fast. So those are the two technique tips I want to give you with the leg extension, and that is number two of the best quad exercises that I recommend.
(00:16:28):
I slightly want to back pedal because I missed some technique tips on the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat. So let me quickly go over them. So the front foot elevated split squat can be done with dumbbells on your side, but you can also do it with a barbell on your back. You can also do it with a safety bar on your back. You can also do it body weight if you're just learning it. One thing I find with front foot elevated dumbbell split squats is as I get stronger, my forearms struggle to hold the dumbbells for that massive amount of time. If you're doing 10 reps per leg, that's 20 reps to be holding 30 kilo dumbbells on each side can be really fatiguing on your forearms. So what you can do is wear lifting straps to help lock in the dumbbells, or you can use a barbell, which is what I do because I can get quite strong at these at times, and I want to be lifting more than 30 kg each hand.
(00:17:19):
I would want to do 40 kg each hand with dumbbells. That's just too hard for my forearms. So I usually get a barbell and do 80 kg instead. And I find that a lot easier, and I find that my legs fatigue before my forearms, which is the goal of any good muscle building exercise to target the target muscle as opposed to my forearms. So there's a technique tip there. Choose the apparatus in terms of the weight that you want to load intelligently. Another few technique tips is with the front leg, keep the heel down, push the knee over toe, make sure the knee is in line with the toe, and that's ultimately it. We'll stop there. So the third exercise, the third best quad exercise that I recommend is the holy grail. Like I said, the back squat, the back squat is one of my favourite quad exercises.
(00:18:08):
And the first exercise, the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat lends itself to having a great back squat. And the reason I love the back squat, not only because it's great for muscle booting and it's great for getting strong, but there's a little thing that people often overlook with the back squat and it's the mental fortitude that it develops. When you put some heavy ass weight on your back and you squat that out, there's no better feeling. The mental development that you get to smash goals, to lift weights you've never lifted to apply. Progressive overload is huge, and that's a really important part of training that people don't understand. Some people find weights so therapeutic, they find it so fulfilling, they find it so stress relieving, and I think that's because not only the physical benefits, but the mental benefits that you get from smashing goals. And then ultimately this goal smashing mindset has a ripple effect into other areas of your life, most likely your career. And you start smashing goals there, and then you start smashing goals with your friends and your family and you become a better person. And there's no bigger believer than me in the ripple effect from weight training into your life. And the back squat is a great example of that.
(00:19:27):
But let's talk about the practical aspects. So why is the back squat one of the best squat exercise? Well, because you can lift a decent amount of weight, the way that you load the back squat with a lot of weight cannot really be replicated in many exercises. You could argue that the leg press you can do just as much or maybe more. But if your technique in the squat is strong and you practise it a lot because the back squat is a skill, yes, it's an exercise, but it's a skill. The more you squat, the better you get and the better you get at squatting, the more efficient it's going to be, and then the stronger you will become. So I like the back squat because you can lift a lot of weight. I also like the back squat because you can bias different muscles with the back squat.
(00:20:13):
So let me take you through three examples of a back squat. We have the standard back squat where your feet are on the ground and you just squat. That is the classic squat. Then we have the heel elevated squat. Now the heel elevated squat is often seen with two little plates underneath your heels, so you are more on your toes or have kind of like a slight elevation with your heels. So you are slightly higher, you're on high heels, but they're really low and you squat down. Now what elevated heels do is they give you some extra ankle mobility and they allow you to sit deeper in your squat. When you sit deeper in your squat, your knees push further over your toes, which I was talking about earlier. This is called knee flexion. The more knee flexion that we have, the more quad bias we're going to have with our squats.
(00:21:08):
So if you do want to really grow your quads, I had a huge goal of doing that when I first started personal training, I felt like my quads were just kind of thick. Me and my mate used to joke, I had rugby legs, no definition, but just kind of solid. And I didn't like that. I wanted to have more definition. So I really focused on back squats and leg extension, and now I have some more definition, even though I would like more, I've made some big progress in that direction. But with the back squat, when we have our heels elevated, we're going to get more quads. So if you really want to focus on quads, elevating your heels is a good way because you get to sit deeper into that squat, get more knee over toes, which biases the quads more. Now if we want to do a barbell with a low bar setup, that's going to target more or not target more.
(00:22:01):
So bias the hamstrings and the glutes still work in the quads, but with a low bar setup, instead of the barbell being up on your traps, the barbell is loaded on your rear deltoids so it's lower on your back. And because it's lower on your back, you have to implement a slightly lean forward to make the barbell be in line with the middle of your foot. If you were standing side on and looking at yourself squat. And when you squat down with a low bar squat, your shins are relatively vertical to the floor, sorry, perpendicular to the floor. So it's like a 90 degree angle. So your knees aren't going very far over your toes. So that must mean it's less quads and more something else. What is that something else? It's more glutes and hamstrings. So with these three types of squats, you can bias different muscle groups, you can bias quads, you can buy glutes and hamstrings, or you can kind of be in the sweet spot with a classic back squat.
(00:23:03):
So that is number three for me. The back squat has a feeling like no other. When you come back up out of the bottom of the squat with a massive weight on your back, there's no better feeling. It really does help with strength building. So with the back squat in terms of rep ranges, I like to sit on the lower end anywhere between two to eight, maximum kind of 10. That's a good spot for squats. I feel like when you go more, it's more of a cardio exercise you get so out of breath, your heart rate's going crazy that it's not really your quads that are stopping you from squatting. It's more so your heart, which can be another goal that you can focus on. But if want to get strong and build muscle, the back squats a great exercise to do for that lower end rep range.
(00:23:51):
And then you can save those higher rep ranges for things like split squats, lunges, leg press, hack squat, leg extension, and then you get this variation of different rep ranges. So back squat, a bit of a heavier exercise that I really like to double up on with weight and sit on my strength blocks. Same thing goes with deadlifts. If you're deadlifting for more than 10 reps, it's a bit of a cardio exercise and even your lower back can get involved because it's isometrically involved. And same with your back squat. Sometimes your lower back can hurt if your form's good, that shouldn't happen, but sometimes it can. So when you do more reps, your lower back can fatigue. If it's not strong with rep ranges, with leg extension, look, you can do anywhere from man like six reps to 2030 reps. That's pretty standard with front foot elevated dumbbell split squat, I like to sit around eight to 12 reps per leg.
(00:24:51):
When you go too heavy on a single leg exercise, like a front foot elevated dumbbell split squat, it can be a bit more joint. You feel like your joint and connective tissues are working a bit too much as opposed to muscles when it's a bit heavy. And I don't like to go more than 12 reps per leg because then that's around 24 reps and that's a long time to be holding dumbbells and holding weight on your body. So often your forearms will fatigue before your legs do, and then you're just doing, it's taking too long. If you do 20 reps per leg, that's 40 reps, that's ages, your heart's going to be fatiguing before your legs do. So ultimately when you're trying to build muscle and get stronger, you want your muscles fatiguing before your heart does. Maybe you're just really unfit, but often that's what we want to focus on with hypertrophy.
(00:25:39):
So that's the first three exercises for quads. The second one is going to be the leg press. Now the reason the leg press is after the back squat is because they're relatively similar movements. But the biggest difference between a back squat and a leg press is the complexity of the exercise and the amount of stabilisation muscles that are required. So if I go back to number three, the back squat, because the back squat and leg press are compared often because they are similar, the back squat, like your lower backs engaged, your abs are engaged, your upper body's engaged because your elbows are pulling back and down, your knees are lining up to your toes, so your whole body is involved, your calves are pushing from the floor. With the leg press, it's less lower back, less core, less stabilisation because you don't have to stand up and hold the weight on your back whilst you're doing the exercise.
(00:26:33):
With a leg press all you're doing, your legs are going up and down, you're just pushing forward and pushing back. You're not actually holding any weight on your back. You're not spinally loaded. You're literally pushing the weight back and forward. So for that reason, the leg press is an easier exercise. You are more stable, and that's why sometimes people can lift more weight on the leg press than they can on the back squat because it is a more stable exercise. Like I said, if you are more stable, you're going to be stronger no matter what exercise you're doing. So with the leg press, it's more stable than the back squat. So most people are a bit stronger on the leg press. Like I can do 200 kg on the leg press. I can't squat 200 yet. That's because my squats probably not as strong and I need to do more, but with the leg press, it's more stable.
(00:27:20):
So I'm able to lift more weight. I can do 200 for 10 reps, 15 reps, when I would never dream of that with my back squat. I'm still at one 70 kg for one, which is pretty pitiful to be honest for my amount of lifting. So with the leg press, I really like it for a muscle building exercise because it's more stable because you can really push yourself and lift more weight than you probably could in any other exercise for your quads. And also it's just it's safer to fail on. Now, I'm not saying you should fail leg press because if you get squashed with a lot of weight on you, that's not a good exercise, right? We don't want to squash ourselves, but it's a bit safer to fail on than the back squat. If you have people watching you leg press, they can save the weight from squashing you and rack the weights and you're all good with the back squat.
(00:28:13):
You can also get people to spot you and help you. But with the back squat, if you did fail like I have by myself, it can be problematic. It's such a complex unstable exercise that if you fail, it's really awkward to which way does the weight go? Which weight do you fall and you have a higher risk of injury. Then in leg press, if you fail, you can just stop the weights from hitting you if you can't get it up or people can help you before it comes to that position. Now ultimately we don't want to completely fail on any exercise, but leg press is definitely one of those ones that you can take closer to failure. An example of the exercises that we've talked about today that can actually be taken quite close to failure. It's the leg extension because if you fail your leg extension, nothing bad is going to happen.
(00:28:58):
So that's one of the exercises you can take really close to failure even until your legs are shaking and can't do any more reps, that's great, but if you did that on the back squat and leg press, then you go and get caught under some weight, you go and get caught. So with the leg press, it's a great exercise for building muscle. You can do a lot of reps, you can do drop sets quite easily, quite quick, quite fast. You can get people to take the weights off. You can do 10 more. You can take the weights off again, you can do 10 more like 20 plate each side. It's a really good exercise for really pushing close to failure drop sets, rest pos method. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of the leg press for that. So I like to do machines like leg extension and leg press a bit later on in the workout when we're a bit more fatigued because the exercises are more stable generally when we're doing machines, technique tips, leg press, what we want to do is same thing with the leg extension, grab the handles beside our butt and pull ourselves down.
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One of the biggest injuries that occur on the leg press is when your lower back or your butt lifts off the ground and then your lower back rounds. So we don't want that to happen. How do we prevent that? We don't go too low for our mobility and flexibility that we currently have. And we also don't lift our butt off the pad, we keep it down, we grab the handles and pull ourselves down into the bench into the seat that we're on, and we keep pulling ourselves the whole time until we finish because as soon as our butt lifts up, that's the equivalent of your spine rounding at the bottom of a squat, and that's where the pressure is on your lower back and not necessarily on your legs, which is the target muscles, the quads. Okay, so those are some technique tips for leg press.
(00:30:51):
Another thing I'll say with breathing, and this goes for back squat and for leg press because we're doing significant amounts of weight with the back squat and leg press, I talked about this on Instagram recently. We want to pretend as if we cannot breathe. So for a back squat, we cannot breathe. As soon as we go under the line of our shoulders like there's water up to our shoulders, we take a breath, we hold that breath, we go down, we squat to the bottom, and then we squat up. And then as soon as we're close to standing up or do stand up, we breathe out and then we take our breath again. We go down, we hold it, we hold it, we hold it, we push back up from the bottom. We're still holding our breath, holding our breath. As soon as we're almost stood up, we breathe out because if we breathe our air out at the bottom of a rep for leg press or for back squat, then we're going to lose our tightness.
(00:31:47):
And if we lose our tightness in the back squat in the leg press at the bottom of the rep, that's where it can be problematic for our lower back because we lose the strength of our core and the strength of our breath that we should be taking from our diaphragm. And when we lose that look, you can get up, but it might hurt your lower back because you're in a weakened place at the hardest point of the exercise. I talked about this earlier in the podcast at the bottom of most exercises for quads, it is the hardest. So when it's the hardest, we need to be our strongest, and that is when we have air in our lungs and in our diaphragm and a strong core and we lose that when we breathe out. So we must not breathe out or release our air at the bottom of a back squat or a leg press.
(00:32:37):
Alright, the last exercise, my last five best quad exercises. The fifth one is the Bulgarian split squat. Now this would be number one for the most hated quad exercise worldwide because to be honest, it just sucks. It has that mental fortitude side of things like the back squat does. When you do a sit of Bulgarian split squats, you feel awesome because they just suck so much and it's like waking up and jumping in a cold shower. You're doing something that you don't want to do, but you know it's good for you. That's the Bulgarian split squat and that's one reason I like them. But the second one is it's just a great exercise because we can do things to bias it for quads and hamstrings and glutes or sweet spot in between. But we're also working an exercise called, sorry, a muscle called the rectus femoris or rec femme for short in that back leg and also stretching out our hip flexes.
(00:33:37):
So that's the main difference between the Bulgarian split squat and other exercises, say like a normal back squat or a leg press. We have that back leg stretching out and that back leg stretching out is stretching out. Our rectus femoris, like I said, rec fem and also our hip flexor. And these muscles are the muscles that often tighten when we sit down and man has the time that we sit down per day increased. We sit down a lot, we have sedentary jobs, we get home, we sit down and watch tv, we go sit on our laptop working, we we're sitting right, we're sitting a lot. So to get us out of that position, a Bulgarian split squat is awesome. That's also why I like the reverse Nordic curl because you are stretching out your quads, your rec femme and your hip flexes. So it's elongating them as opposed to them being bunched up and squashed when you're sitting.
(00:34:33):
So the biggest benefit I want to talk about with the Bulgarian split squat is one that probably many people don't talk about is the fact that it almost undoes the harmful things that happens when we sit for so long. It really opens up our hips, which is a big positive and that's where a lot of lower back pain can come from. That's where tight hip flexes can come from, which leads to, once again a poor back squat. So if we're doing a Bulgarian split squats and even front foot elevated dumbbell split squats as well, it's opening up that back leg whilst we're working the front leg. So we're almost getting a double whammy of benefits. We're building muscle in the front leg, but also building flexibility and mobility in that back leg through it being stretched out. Now, the Bulgarian split squat, I've talked about this on Instagram too with a short step and our knees going more over toes.
(00:35:28):
We are getting more quads because of the knee flexion. Like I mentioned earlier, if you put your working leg, your front leg quite far out, and when you split squat down, you hit more of a 90 degree angle at your knees, then you're going to be biassing more towards hamstringing and glutes, although your quads are still involved. And if you have a step that's in between short and long, you have a sweet spot of hitting quads and glutes and hamstrings. It's more of a kind of standard approach, like the standard back squat as opposed to the heel elevated or low bar back squat like we talked about previously. So with the Bulgarian split squat, I really like that the fact that you can bias different muscle groups, the fact that it's mentally challenging and the fact that you are increasing your flexibility and mobility of your back leg.
(00:36:16):
So to summarise these quad exercises, before I get into the story q and as that I want to tackle with you, we're doing this live, let me just summarise. Number one was the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat. Number two was the leg extension. Number three was the back squat. Number four was the leg press, and number five was the Bulgarian split squat. Now lastly, some technique tips for the Bulgarian split squat. They're going to be pretty similar to the other ones in terms of the back squats and the front foot elevated dumbbell split squats. But we want our heels to stay down on the floor with our front leg. Now with our back leg, we want to go laces down on the bench. Sometimes the bench is too high to do Bulgarian split squat, so you may have to find an alternative around in the gym, but we want that front working leg to stay down on the floor, keep it down, and that back leg is laces down.
(00:37:13):
So our foot is ultimately upside down and resting our shoe laces on the bench, not up on the toe. We want to rest our shoe laces on the bench With the Bulgarian split squat, we don't want our legs in the same line like a tightrope. We want them like railways. So you still want your left leg under your left shoulder, your right leg, under your right shoulder. A lot of people will lose their balance with Bulgarian split squats because they're tried to do this tightrope approach where their left leg is in the middle of their body and so is their right leg. And that just creates a weird kind of balance beam where you'll never be stable. And once again, if you're stable is lower, sorry, if your stability is lower, then your strength is going to be lower as well. With every exercise, we want to be as stable as possible.
(00:37:59):
So with the Bulgarian split squat, we want our legs on similar railway tracks that they are when we walk, we don't walk on a balance beam when we're walking down the street. We walk with our left leg under our left shoulder and our right leg under our right shoulder. We want the same thing when we're doing the Bulgarian split squat. And with the Bulgarian split squat, we're not breathing out at the bottom as well because once again, it's hardest at the bottom. So we want to do that Bulgarian split squat with our breath held until we get near the top and then we breathe out and then we take another breath in, hold it while we go down, hold it while we go up, breathe out when we're almost at the top. All right, now I'm just going to take a sip of coffee and get my phone and I'm going to answer some Instagram story questions.
(00:38:43):
If you do have questions that I don't cover and you don't get them answered on my Instagram story, and as you can email them into team@teambrockashby.com, we'll see them and I will answer them for sure. So let me just jump in to these story questions. Alright, so I did a q and a the other day and I said, what's one thing you're confused about with fitness? Because I wanted to clarify some things. There's so many, there's so much information on the internet, so this is really nice to clarify things. Okay, I'm going to take one from at Wesley Centre, which says bulking and shredding too afraid of getting fat bulking. All right, so with bulking and shredding, I am a big fan of that approach. I'm not saying that you have to get fat when you bulk and get extremely shredded when you are skinny, but I do believe in pursuing one goal at a time, right?
(00:39:49):
There's a saying that I love, one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, and that ultimately just means if you have something and go for it, that's much more secure and better than going for two things because you probably miss out on them. And it's the same thing when you are going for muscle building and when you're going for fat loss. If you try and do both at the same time, you're probably not going to get either of them, but if you go for one, that's that bird in the hand that you are probably going to get with the right strategies. Of course, with bulking, the thing that people need to understand, and this is not sexy, and this is why this probably will not be posted on Instagram because no one will care about it.
(00:40:32):
With bulking, you are going to increase your body fat. If you build muscle without gaining an ounce of body fat, you are either a beginner, you are someone who has returned to weights after a long time, you are obese or extremely overweight because in a calorie deficit you still have your body fat tissue that you can use as fuel or you're on steroids. Performance enhancing drugs. These are the four populations that can get away with it. But if you don't fit in that category, which is me, which is most people that have been lifting for over six months to a year, you have to go for one thing at a time. And you have to understand that when you're building muscle, the best way to do that is to be in a bulk, is to be in a calorie surplus. And a calorie surplus means you're consuming more calories than you're burning, and you're going to have to gain a bit of body fat and you have to make peace with that.
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And this is why no one can stick to a bulk because they're literally afraid of getting fat. And I understand where you're coming from, especially if you have been fat previously or if you feel like your confidence decreases when you gain body fat. I get it right because I'm human too. When I gain too much body fat and I'm in a bulking phase, I struggle with it a bit and I might pull the calories back and I might go back to maintenance or to a cut to get rid of that fat. But it's an essential part of building muscle optimally.
(00:42:10):
And the thing is, when you go into a calorie surplus, you have to acknowledge that it's the best way to build muscle and also acknowledge that you can get rid of that fat that you're building, right? Because building muscle, but you're also building up body fat. But when you cut, you will maintain that muscle mass through lifting heavy weights and you will drop the body fat through being in a calorie deficit. So just remember, we are unfinished projects at all times and we are never finished. And when we build muscle and when we get into that calorie surplus and our body fat goes higher, we have to know that we are going to lose that later on and we have the power to do that or else it's disempowering. And we get there and we go, oh man, I'm just fat. I need to lose weight again.
(00:42:57):
So then all you've pretty much done is gained fat, a little bit of muscle maybe, and then just drop the body fat and you haven't spent enough time bulking to actually build a significant amount of muscle because building muscle takes time, and a lot of people when they start bulking, they will bulk for maybe a month and get fed up and go, this isn't working. So they just eat whatever they want. They have cheap meals everywhere. They just go, I'm not tracking calories, I'm just going to loof heavy and eat heaps of food. So then they just do that and they just get really fat, they build minimal amounts of muscle, and then they just get into a calorie deficit for ages longer than they ever needed to, just to get back to a place where they were.
(00:43:43):
A bigger calorie surplus does not mean a bigger deposit of muscle that we make. That's why I only recommend a 5% calorie surplus when trying to build muscle, because when we eat more than 5% of our calorie surplus, often that is just unnecessary. Unless you're a hard gainer that really struggles to gain weight. But if you're at a 10%, 15%, 20% calorie surplus, you're just overeating, you're just having cheap meals, you're eating takeaways, and you're excusing yourself saying, oh, I'm bulking. No, you're not. You're just being lazy and you're eating too much because you're impatient and you think that the weight that you're gaining is muscle, but it's not. Okay, so I won't spend too much more time. I don't know why I sound angry at someone. I'm talking to someone there, but I'm just answering this question because the most annoying thing to see is someone tries to bulk someone just eat too much food and excuse it as bulking.
(00:44:42):
They don't spend enough time in a calorie surplus to actually build muscle. So they just ultimately get fat and then they try to lose that. And if they do things right, they successfully lose that body fat, but then they're just in the same position that they were before with the same amount of muscle. So all you did if that happened to you was just get fat and lose fat. But what we want to do is spend enough time in a calorie surplus to encourage that muscle building process to happen. And in that calorie surplus recovery is better, performance is better. So we want to spend a long time in that calorie surplus. That's why it only needs to be small. If it's too big too early, that calorie surplus is going to get you way too fat and then you're just going to have too much fat.
(00:45:25):
And then it might be discouraging trying to lose it again and get back to a body fat that you were before. But we want to build muscle and build fat at the same time. It has to happen that way. But then if we only do it conservatively and we don't lose discipline and have cheap meals everywhere, left, right, and centre, if we do that conservatively, we can build a nice amount of muscle with minimal amounts of fat so that when we do cut to a point where we do want to get leaner, we have built significant amount of muscle and we drop that body fat and maintain that muscle mass. And that is how we slowly chip away at depositing more muscle on our body and gaining fat and dropping fat, depositing more muscle in the surplus, gaining a little bit of fat, dropping that body fat and holding onto the muscle mass.
(00:46:08):
So it doesn't have to be extreme, okay? We don't have to try and gain 40 pounds of muscle in seven weeks. We just need to look. I literally gain about man, 200 grammes, 500 grammes a muscle a year. It's harder here, man. Being an advanced lifter is hard out here. It's a hard war that you're fighting, right? If you're not taking steroids and you're an advanced lifter, it does take a long time to build muscle. It's not like losing fat when you're losing fat. My last built by Brock, eight week challenge winner lost 10 kilos and eight weeks. You will never build 10 kilos of muscle in eight weeks, never. Sorry to be so straight up and blunt, but that's never going to happen, right? In a build phase, you are lucky if you build like 200 grammes of muscle, and that sounds discouraging, but over five years, that can be a whole kilo of muscle, which once again sounds pathetic, but this is the game we're playing as natural bodybuilders.
(00:47:10):
And it does make a difference because now I'm 90 kg. I look like I did three or four years ago, but I was like 87, 86 kg, 88 kg even. So even though I look similar, I way more muscle mass. And by way more, I only mean two kilos, but that is way more. So now I'm at 10% body fat somewhere around that. And I'm 90 kilos where when I was 90 kilos, two or three years ago, four years ago, I looked a lot thicker. I had a lot more body fat, but now I've replaced that with muscle over time. Wow, that was a long answer to a question. Okay, let me go again, find another question. Lifting to failure, is it every rep or on the last set? This is from Wesley Centre, again, I should have chose someone else. But anyway, lifting to failure.
(00:48:09):
Is it every rep or on your last set? So lifting to failure is not going to be on every rep. It's not going to be even on every set or every last set. I like to look at it differently. I like to look at training to failure and reserve that for the weeks three and four of a four week programme. So the first week of a programme, you're not training to failure at all. You're getting used to the tempo. You're getting used to the exercises. You're getting used to the sets and the reps and the structure of the programme and the amount of rest that you're taking. You better be taking that rest. And then in week number two, you're slightly lifting heavier weights, but you're still kind of easing in to the programme. This is only the second week, the second time you're doing these exercises, and then on that third week, you're starting to feel a bit more comfortable.
(00:48:54):
So you start pushing closer to failure on the back end of sets. So if there's four sets on sets, three and four, you're really starting to push close to failure. You are leaving about one rep left in reserve, but you may even push to complete failure on some exercises like leg extension for example. That's a machine and safe to do so. And then on that fourth week, on that fourth week, you give it hell, you train so hard, you train close to failure on pretty much every set because this is the final week of the programme. It's the final countdown. It's the final week of the programme. So you are going to train hard to hit personal best to apply progressive overload to get strong. You're going to do this because next week the program's changing and you need to go back to week one of getting used to the sets and reps and tempo and structure of the programme. So that is how I personally programme failure with my clients, and it works great. I do it too. You're not getting strong on the first week of the programme. You're not even getting strong on the second week of the programme, but on weeks three and four, you really smash it because you have that baseline of the first two weeks where you made progress on your form and on the structure of the programme. Okay, let me answer another one.
(00:50:14):
What have we got? Tracking pasta, cooked or uncooked? This is Jacqueline Marie Martin. I like to track uncooked because when you track cooked, and this is my OCD brain going off, when you track cooked pasta, it has water in it, but how much water is it? Is it a lot of water? Is it not much water? I feel like pasta and things like rice that you boil and that can holding water, I feel like sometimes it may be holding more water or less water depending on how much you've cooked it. So to have a more accurate way of tracking, I would go with uncooked because when things are raw, things are raw. It's not like, oh, how raw is that? Is it really raw or half raw? Like pasta, uncooked pasta is uncooked pasta. So I would go with uncooked for sure, but that's a great question. And the same thing goes with meat as well, because a well-cooked meat will be different to medium real meat because of the blood content. So if you did it raw, it's going to have the same, pretty much the same blood content or amount of rawness for meat as well. So that's just my opinion on that one.
(00:51:35):
This is from AT totally related to Chuck Norris. What a name. Is it necessary to take protein powder or just highly recommend? I'm new to working out Lowell. Okay, this is a good question. It's not necessary to take protein powder. Protein powder is a source of protein that is highly convenient. It's well digested, and it's actually quite high quality protein. So it is a great protein source. It's not essential though, especially if you're new to working out, it's not something that you need. It's not something that must be taken daily for gains to be made. It's something that you need to consider if you're not hitting your protein intake. So if you are constantly falling short on your protein target that you need to hit, let's say you need to hit 150 grammes of protein a day, and you're only hitting 120 or a hundred, if you add a scoop of protein into your diet, that's going to be 130, 120 grammes of protein, which is much closer to 150 than a hundred and much better for your muscle maintenance, for your recovery, for your satiety levels or how full you feel.
(00:52:47):
So is it essential? No. Is it a good idea for some people? Hell yeah. I put it in my smoothie every morning. That's an extra 20 to 30 grammes of protein that I don't need to worry about later on. So it's not essential. No, but it's a great idea and I do recommend it to quite a lot of clients because a lot of people don't eat enough protein. If you actually track your calories, you'll begin to realise that your diet's probably not as high as protein as it should be. It's probably more common in females. Most of my female clients do struggle to eat high levels of protein. So it is important to hit when you're looking at building muscle, at maintaining muscle, at trying to feel full when you're dieting on a calorie deficit protein is a great idea. So yeah, it's not essential, but it's a cheap source of protein as well, and it generally tastes good. Okay, let me answer a couple more.
(00:53:48):
Let me see what will really help. How do you balance travel and keeping consistent with diet and training? This is from Theod Gaze or the ADON gaze. How do you balance travel and keeping consistent with diet and training? Look, it has to be a priority, and that's ultimately what it comes down to. Look, you can have all the excuses in the world, jet lag. I have to eat out a lot with my clients when I'm travelling because I'm a businessman or a businesswoman. I get it. And all those excuses are valid, but ultimately it comes down to how important is your fitness. I dealt with a lot of corporate clients that went to a lot of dinners and went to a lot of events where there was alcohol around and they really struggled. And I went to the extent of getting them to send me the menus and for me to give them the best choices to have at that restaurant because I really cared for them and their results.
(00:54:48):
And that seemed to help for some of them. Ultimately, I just asked them if it was necessary to get plastered or you could get away with having one two drinks. And just someone asking that question can be a good eyeopener. Like, oh, maybe I don't need to get plastered with my clients because they want me to. And maybe it helps you get business. But I think also there's something deep down inside of people that respect people that actually stand for something. And I feel like when you have one or two and just say no, though, sometimes it can be offensive to some people. That's their problem. And you need to stand for what you stand for. And if you are trying to prioritise your health at this point in your life, you need to just own that. And people need to understand that that's just who you are at this point in time.
(00:55:38):
That doesn't mean you've stopped drinking forever. That doesn't mean that you think drinking and people that drink are losers. That's definitely not what it means. It just means at this time you don't want to drink as much. Or maybe you don't want to have a burger, you want to have a salad maybe, and that's cool. You do what you want to do. Something that I've never struggled with is peer pressure and people trying to encourage me to drink or encourage me to eat this or eat that. And this may sound arrogant, but I'll just do what I want because I prioritise myself in these situations and because when I'm better, I'm better for everyone else as well. And I think you'll understand that, especially when it's friends and family and eat this, eat that, drink this, drink that. If you're like, no, I'm trying to lose weight, or I'm trying to drink less, or I'm trying to feel better and I feel better when I drink a bit less and when I'm hungover, I usually wake up and eat it huge breakfast burrito. And that's not the thing that I want to do on Sunday morning. I want to go to the gym and then play tennis with my kid. If that stuff makes you feel better, start thinking about that and reverse engineer your life around that. One more question. Let me take one more question.
(00:57:00):
Okay? Okay. This is okay. This is the first time I'm looking at these questions too. So I'm trying to, I don't want to have these prepared questions and answers. That's pretty staged, man. That's reality TV stuff. Okay, this is not really a question, but I can see where they're coming from at aad DIL F 0 7 86. It's confusing when you have lost weight but don't have a six pack, right? So once again, this was a question that I asked. What's one thing you're confused about? So it's like losing weight and not having a six pack. How is that? I can see how that's confusing. Number one, it helps to get a six pack if that's your goal, if you actually have abs, and by having abs, I mean having strong developed abs like working out your abs, doing kneeling cable crunches, doing ab rollouts, doing planks, doing dumbbell drags side to side, doing dead bugs, doing planks, but reaching forward to a drink bottle or something like that, doing a V up, doing hanging knee raises, hanging leg raises.
(00:58:14):
These exercises are going to build your abs. And often people don't train abs, so that helps. Number two, it could just be your body fat. Okay, maybe you have lost weight, but you don't have a six pack now. Maybe you haven't lost enough weight, you haven't become lean enough. You have to understand Instagram models, TikTok influences, right? YouTube fitness stars. They have the cream of the crop genetics. And I can speak to that because I have great genetics too, and I would put myself into that category of being a Instagram fitness dude with a six pack. I have great genetics for that, and I've always been honest about this. I don't store much body fat on my stomach, on my waist, I don't. Okay? I did a DEXA scan and I store most of my body fat in my glutes and my legs. And yes, that is a very privileged position to be because I store literally the least amount of body fat on my stomach.
(00:59:13):
So I have abs at very high percentages of body fat, 15%, 20% body fat. I don't think I've been 20, but I've been higher than before and I still had abs. They weren't the most shredded abs in the world, but I still had abs that people would consider, okay, that guy's got abs and I was relatively thick, but that's just the way my genetics work. So you have to understand that if you do want to get lean, the people on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube that we look at and say, man, they have great bodies. I want to look like them. They have great genetics and it's easier for them if they store less body fat on their stomach or Have you ever thought of this? This is their full-time job looking like a fitness person. That's how they get paid. That's how gyms sharkk renews their contract.
(01:00:04):
That's how EHP labs or any sort of supplement contract keeps them on their payroll because they're shredded, because they're pushing their supplements and getting a commission on that. You need to think about this. They train twice a day maybe, or they train every day. They get 10, 20,000 steps per day. They're taking every supplement. They might even be on performance and enhancing drugs, but these people are not who you should measure yourself up against. So if you have genetics that you store body fat on your belly, it's going to be harder for you. You might not even have abs at 10% body fat. I've had this lady tell me that she competed in a bodybuilding like bikini show and she didn't have abs and she was under 10% body fat. That's crazy for a female, but that's just the way her genetics works. Okay? Maybe she had kids.
(01:00:54):
When you have kids ladies out there, your body is not the same. Okay? Your body's different. You've given birth to a child, which is one of the best miracles in life, but your body may be different. You have to accept that. And everyone's body is different. You may not have the same genetics as me, you may not have the same genetics as the shredded person from Gym Sharp or the girl with a nice booty and a thin waist. You may not have those genetics, but you have the genetics that you were born with. And one thing that I love seeing around genetics, and this does come down to six packs and losing weight and being satisfied or dissatisfied, is that you cannot control your genetics, but you can control what you do with your genetics. And that comes down to mindset. Once again. Are you going to be a victim and just be angry at everyone with good genetics, or are you going to shut up and do the work?
(01:01:41):
Look at Lane Norton. He talks about this a lot. Okay? His name's at Bio Lane on Instagram. He always talks about he was not the most genetically gifted male specimen out there, but he's put in years of hard work. And he said that he had chicken legs and now he's got one of the world's biggest squats and he has decent legs, he's got big legs even, and super strong legs as well. This guy was not a victim. He was not like, oh man, I've got bad genetics. I'm not going to be in the fitness industry. I'm not going to lift. That's not for me. Or I'll never be this person or that person. Now, he's one of the strongest men in the world and has a big brand and fitness industry, but it's not based on the size of his legs. It's based on what he's done with his work and with his career.
(01:02:30):
And that's a bit of a separate discussion, but the ability he has to just accept what he has and work his ass off with what he has is amazing. And I encourage you to do the same. That's the last question that I'm going to answer, guys. We're going to wrap this up. This was the five best quad exercises and why and a q and a of my story q and a. So guys, once again at Brock Ashby on Instagram, if you do want to ask me questions, team@teambrockashby.com is the email if you want to send through questions and I can answer them as well. That will go direct to me. Give us a follow. Check me out on TikTok as well. Just hit 136,000 followers. So we are on the climb there. YouTube hit 10,000 subscribers over the New Year's, which is a big deal for me.
(01:03:18):
YouTube is a grind, I'll tell you that much. So if you could subscribe there, that would be great. I do a lot of long form content like this. Well, this will be on YouTube, but if you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, please subscribe to my YouTube if you want to watch these as well. I always film myself when I do the YouTubes, when I do the YouTubes, when I do the podcast, whether I have a guest or not, it's always filmed and recorded. And what else? Team brock ashby.com. If you want to be coached by me in whatever capacity that could be built by Brock, which is my online membership, where you get new workouts, new nutrition, new educational videos every month, or it could be one-to-one coaching with me or any of my guides, which are ultimately self-directed, where you will not be annoyed by me very much, but you're still in the Facebook group community where I can help you when needed. So for that, I have the 16 week mail guide, the Male Guide 2.0, which is ultimately the second version of the 16 week mail guide. And then I have the Beginner's Guide as well. So yeah, that's me. Please give me great reviews on my podcast. That would very much help. And yeah, and subscribe on YouTube, all that kind of good stuff. I'll see you next time. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 29 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Jacqueline. Thank you very much for coming up to the north with this podcast.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:00:09):
Oh, Brock, I'm glad we finally made it happen. I feel like there's been a few mishaps along the way, but we are here
Brock Ashby (00:00:15):
Finally. Yeah. So we try to make this happen last year. Yes. And then I got gastro, and
Jacqueline Alwill (00:00:22):
Then my family got gastro. It was like a tic tac
Brock Ashby (00:00:26):
Toe. Yeah. So we're finally here and just in the nick of time, I got a baby coming on the way in a few days. So
Jacqueline Alwill (00:00:33):
Exciting. So
Brock Ashby (00:00:33):
Yeah, this is, I think I'll take maybe one or two weeks off a podcast on the back. We'll see how we go.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:00:40):
Deserved a screaming baby. I think you won't have a scream, but you might want to just soak in all those beautiful little newborn cuddles for as much time as you possibly can.
Brock Ashby (00:00:50):
Yeah, we're super pumped. So we got 17th is when it's meant to happen. So
Jacqueline Alwill (00:00:57):
Capricorn.
Brock Ashby (00:00:57):
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a Capricorn as well.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:01:01):
Okay. So you know the personality types. That's good.
Brock Ashby (00:01:03):
Yeah. Do you believe in that?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:01:05):
I don't. Okay. I know the horoscopes, I know some components of different horoscopes. I know that Capricorns can be strong in their mindset. Would that be a true reflection of yourself? I
Brock Ashby (00:01:19):
Think so. Yeah. Very much so actually. Yeah.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:01:22):
And that's not a negative. It can be used in lots of different ways. Great ways.
Brock Ashby (00:01:26):
Yeah. I've always read horoscopes out of curiosity because I don't necessarily believe in them or believe that just because you're born at a certain time of the year, you will be this sort of person. But also I've never read a horoscope that I have never agreed with. But then I think sometimes they're so general at the same time that
Jacqueline Alwill (00:01:45):
It's true.
Brock Ashby (00:01:46):
It could be for anyone.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:01:48):
Well at look, at least you've got a January baby, they're going to be born when most people are on holidays, so their parties are going to be great in the years to come because people will be out ready for celebration. So there's lots of great things about January babies, at least it wasn't December 31. January
Brock Ashby (00:02:05):
One. Well that's my birthday. December 30. What? Yeah. Really?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:02:09):
Oh my gosh. I say at least is what this, you're like, well, that's mine.
Brock Ashby (00:02:12):
No, no, no, but I totally agree because, so personally I like it because I don't like a big deal about my birthday. So when I was growing up, we were always travelling and I was having them in fun times. Awesome. In New Zealand, we would get in the car, go for a drive and be in these cool places. I grew up spearfishing, surfing, fishing, doing fun stuff. We were away a holiday. So I've always had a good experience. But on the other side of things, I think if I liked parties and having friends around, it'd be very hard to lock people in because they're away. And also for sport, it's not very good because it's often from 1st of January. So I was always the small kid.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:02:54):
Well, I bet you've trumped them now though.
Brock Ashby (00:02:57):
Maybe that fueled my,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:02:59):
Fueled my work. The motivation really came from that, didn't it? Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:03:03):
Yeah. Alright, so let's jump into just a few questions around what you do, but how would you explain what you do in a 32nd, 62nd spiel?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:03:17):
Oh, like an elevator bitch? Yes. Oh, okay. I am a mom of three and a nutritionist, and I've been in the industry for over a decade. I have two businesses, brown Paper Nutrition and Day One Fertility, and my mission is to support women and then obviously their children in understanding nutrition and helping to simplify nutrition science. So health becomes achievable and accessible for everyone. I do it in a way that it is about abundance and really finding a connection with your health and with your body because life feels better when you feel good. So yeah, that's what I started out doing over a decade ago. It's what I still do now with just as much passion as when I started. And I think probably having children along the way has made me feel even greater purpose because I want to make sure that how I'm setting up their health, but also the health of their and friends' parents and the community, it all trickles on to other people and affects all of us in some ways. So I really love what I do and I feel not thankful because I've worked my ass off, but I'm really humble that I get to connect with the people that I do every day and that I get to work with people in ways that can make them feel really empowered by their health and nutrition.
Brock Ashby (00:04:47):
So with the two businesses, can you explain the difference between them and then also on the back of that, how you got into each one of them? Did they start simultaneously? Was it one and then like, oh, now I've got this other idea that I want
Jacqueline Alwill (00:05:00):
To, yeah. Yeah. I mean, running one business is kind of enough, especially with three tiny, not two tiny people and a teenager. But so Brown Paper Nutrition was my founding baby
Brock Ashby (00:05:12):
And where did the name come from?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:05:15):
So when I was first learning how to cook and understanding food, I did a lot of cooking and primarily baking. So I would wrap it up in a brown paper bag and give it to people. And it wasn't always healthy food at the start, it was just a learning process and imparting something onto someone else. I'm sure there was a component that my family couldn't keep up with them as much as I was cooking, but it was certainly lovely to offer people a taste as the years progressed of what good health is or a taste of good nutrition because 10 years ago as well, there was still this massive disconnect whereby healthy food was sometimes kind of a bit rabbity salads and things that weren't necessarily sustaining. And I really felt that there was still that disconnect. It's quite off-putting for the general population. I don't want to eat that.
(00:06:12):
So yeah, just it's not tasty and it wasn't common and there wasn't education pieces in the media as much. No way. It was just a very different era and social media wasn't as rampant as it is now. So yeah, when I started Brown Paper Nutrition, I just graduated. I had a small online business seeing clients, and then because I wanted to give people this taste of good nutrition and health, I started a little stall at the Bondi markets on the weekend and I'd bake healthy treats and healthy foods and I connected with the local community and that was such an incredible time to build that face-to-face contact, but to also grow a community in that way and really special to me because then all of these people would get behind you and support you throughout all of the years to come in different ways. And it's so nice to still stay so connected to those people.
(00:07:10):
So yeah, so Brown Paper nutrition really came through teaching and educating and with a clinical practise and it's evolved over the years. I've had whole food catering as part of Brown paper nutrition. I've had a meal delivery business, but when I wanted to focus on my own health and reduce stress and conceive, again, it was time to pivot and I wanted to keep that, but also use the knowledge and education that I'd built over the years to build into a new platform and to make sure that what I'd learned was out there for other people to enjoy and learn from as well. Because going into a time of life like pregnancy and becoming a mother again, even though it's 13 years on, but well 10 years on when I had my second, there's a lot that you need to do for your body and for a lot of the time a lot of women or couples or individuals are sort of, they go to the doctor with a positive pregnancy test.
(00:08:19):
They're giving the advice of a sort of substandard prenatal and a list of foods you shouldn't eat and then sent on your merry way. And I wanted to use what I'd learned in my studies, in my practise in the practical being a mother side of things to offer people the support and to help them feel empowered by their health and nutrition for preconception and for pregnancy and for post-birth. Because when you have that knowledge, you have the confidence advocate for the health of both you and your baby. So if I can impart that onto people through day one fertility, then that's an incredible thing to be able to do. And I get up every day and I feel so much purpose in what I do, but I didn't gel the two businesses in any way because it speaks to different people at different stages of life a little bit. So I agree
Brock Ashby (00:09:18):
With that.
(00:09:19):
So take a step back from having a positive pregnancy test and then wondering what to do if you're trying to fall pregnant. What's ways that people can optimise their nutrition for that purpose? Is there some guidelines that you have? Obviously you have a business on it, so you could just be like, well go buy my product. But for people that are looking for tips or things that maybe you think that the gps or people that are advising people to fall pregnant, maybe they're leaving out things that you're like, well, this is something that I would do. Is there anything like that you could help people out
Jacqueline Alwill (00:10:01):
With? How many hours have we got? Yeah,
(00:10:04):
We could actually talk about this the whole time, but I'll try and be really succinct. When it comes to trying to fall pregnant, I think probably the most important thing is thinking about that preconception period. So even though 50% of pregnancies are unplanned for those other 50% make a plan a bit like training, right? Or running a marathon, you'd make a plan for all of that, you'd programme for it. And I feel like this is where the piece where people perhaps don't yet have it out there enough is that you need to make a plan and work on preconception nutrition before trying to conceive because you want to make sure you're optimising the nutrition in your body and your health ready for conception in terms of what some simple takeaways that I can offer, there was a recent Harvard Research Review published, and it was based on a landmark study of literally thousands of participants done over several years.
(00:11:07):
And from that study, they were able to look at some significant dietary changes that you can make that can help improve your fertility by up to around 65%, which is a lot, right? And this was women. So looking at what foods and lifestyle changes can support ovulation and fertility because you have to have healthy eggs, you have to ovulate regularly in order to fall pregnant. A few of the dietary changes that were at the forefront were avoiding trans fats and reducing saturated fats. And this is really important because a lot of people are eating a primarily very ultra, highly processed diet full of processed foods and these ultra processed foods, packaged cakes and cookies and breads and crackers and crisps and all these sorts of things or vegetable spreads, things like that contain trans fats and saturated fats, which can make our bodies very inflamed.
(00:12:12):
And we want our bodies to be in a low stress, low inflammation state in order to conceive. So you avoid the trans fats, take out saturated fats and replace with something else. We don't want to leave people and just strip people out with foods. We want to make sure low fat though, but you're replaced with those beautiful healthy fats. So poly and monounsaturated fats, so things like your olive oil, nuts and seeds, avocado, you're getting lots of those in there because they cool inflammation in the body and they support ovulation and they help with insulin sensitivity. So we want to get all of those beautiful healthy fats in there. Another one that was really important was increasing your intake of vegetable protein and vegetable proteins. So things like your tofu, Tempe, legumes, so lentil chickpeas, kidney beans, all showed favourable fertility outcomes.
Brock Ashby (00:13:10):
And why is it vegetable protein? Why not protein?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:13:16):
So this is the good part of it as well. So it's not about having a vegetarian diet, it's just about replacing even just one meal a day with a vegetable protein base because of the nutrients that are in your vegetable proteins that support ovulation also lower in saturated fats, which they were trying to reduce. So by no means do you have to be on a plant predominant diet or a vegetarian diet, but just looking at how you can make a few little swaps here and there. Nice and remembering as well that those vegetable proteins are also super rich in fibre. So you're supporting gut microbiome as well as which also leads into the health of your vagina microbiome, for instance. So there's plenty of reasons backed by science why you'd be increasing things like your veggie proteins. They also noted that it's really important to increase your intake of vegetarian or plant-based iron iron's. Really important for ovulation. And a lot of women will go into pregnancy already on the lower end of iron and then become very deplete throughout pregnancy because the demands in pregnancy are so high. I dunno if you guys had came into any complications throughout your pregnancy, but the number of women we see is pretty significant. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:14:29):
We've definitely seen iron decrease over time, which they say is normal. We haven't reached a critical point where it's like we need to take huge action. But it's definitely been something that I noticed or that we've noticed in
Jacqueline Alwill (00:14:43):
Obstetrician and women. There are so many. Iron deficiency is the most common deficiency globally, right? Because there's so many women menstruating, we're losing iron every month, so many women are walking in. And if you walk in blind and without a little bit of education, then you only know what you know. If you walk in with some education, then you have the opportunity to be aware and to make some changes to your diet in order to help your chances of a favourable outcome. Another point they made was that it's about slow carb, not low carb. And this is really important because people can get really caught up in these restrictions when it comes to diet. And certainly for people that might have been on a more challenged fertility journey, they might be restricting a lot of food because they're told you're bombarded with information and different blogs that they might be turning to that aren't necessarily backed by science will be telling you to take this out and take that out.
(00:15:45):
But your body actually needs carbohydrate for healthy ovulation. And we also need carbohydrate for the health of our uterus for uterine lining so that when we are trying to conceive, we've got a beautiful healthy uterus for implantation. So carbs are really important. So our whole food carbs, things like our oats and our rice, barley, quinoa, buckwheat, sweet potato, all of those juicy, delicious carbs are really important in a fertility diet per se, fertility way of life. And also drinking water over drinking sugary sodas or alcohol and limiting caffeine. Have your coffee a day, but not having too much caffeine. It's depleted alcohol for obvious reasons, and sugary sodas also obviously peak your blood glucose levels and we want to make sure that we're keeping insulin levels nice and stable so that all impacts ovulation. They were just some of the key dietary tweaks that people, anyone can take away and make immediately essentially to improve their fertility significantly.
Brock Ashby (00:16:57):
And what about lifestyle changes?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:16:59):
So lifestyle changes super important as well, right? Yeah. What do you guys do?
Brock Ashby (00:17:05):
Well, we are already very active. Not that my wife needed to increase her physical activity, but I'm a personal trainer, so I'm already very active and we met in a gym, so our relationship is hot
Jacqueline Alwill (00:17:25):
And sweaty, water cooler.
Brock Ashby (00:17:29):
It's founded around physical activity in the gym and stuff like that. So we are already doing things like having these kind of guidelines of 10,000 steps and having, she was already going to the gym four to five times per week. So in terms of activity and sleep, man, probably the most boring adults ever that didn't have kids already because we were trying to get to bed at nine because we were waking up at 5, 5 30, of course she'd go to work, I would start working and all this kind of stuff. So we already tried to dial that in before we were trying to get pregnant or do anything like that. So we didn't make huge changes. I wouldn't say we even made any changes, but that's coming from us who I'm literally sitting down studying what's the best way to live, how do we have the best body possible that's doing what we want it to do and stuff like that. But I guess I'm also very aware that people don't come from this background and people are just like, I want to have a kid, but they're not training or maybe they're not even prioritising steps in any way or physical activity in general. It doesn't have to be steps like I'm going for a walk, but going for a swim, going for a bike, or doing whatever. So we didn't make a lot of changes personally, but I know that for a lot of people it's required.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:18:55):
Absolutely. And for things like movement, and you would know this all too well, especially if you're coming from nothing and that's your base, but you're wanting to conceive, you want to keep it low stress, so hit exercise, things like that, not such a friendly one for fertility, but gentle walks and doing movement that you love so that you actually keep your body moving is favourable over doing things that you don't love because you're trying to achieve something, right? Yeah. It means you'll get up and do it
Brock Ashby (00:19:26):
Like it's sustainable. Yeah, exactly. If you're like, oh, I like swimming, I'm going to go for a swim.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:19:30):
And we already have so much stress in our lives and stress wreaks havoc on hormones and in both women and men, but certainly in women, it can wreak havoc on your hormones and really affect fertility outcomes. So keeping exercise low stress, looking at your lifestyle and being really realistic about how you can reduce stress in your lives as well. For women and men, we always dive into investigating and reducing things like environmental toxins and what's around you. So we follow at day one, a four step process, which is investigate, balance, nourish, and reduce. And part of that process is looking at these environmental toxins. So for the men for instance, because takes two to tango, you'd be looking at if they're trady and if they're working in places where there's lots of dust from different paints or if they're pulling up asbestos or whatever they're inhaling on their daily basis, or if you walk to work is perhaps along the main road and you can take some back streets to avoid the inhalation of pollution.
(00:20:41):
For women it might be, and this is super common actually, what they're putting on their skin every day and looking at how we can reduce the toxins and the chemicals present in your lifestyle because things like fragrances are known endocrine disruptors. So even IVF clinics these days will ask their patients to avoid products with fragrances in them and they're everywhere and phthalates and things like that. So we want to make sure that we're reducing those elements, stress and environmental toxicity, and they're the lifestyle components that really a lot of people really need to focus on, especially if you live in the city, everyone has the capacity to go and boot off to the country when they're trying to conceive. Just
Brock Ashby (00:21:26):
Live this peaceful life, live in a
Jacqueline Alwill (00:21:27):
Cottage,
(00:21:29):
Do yoga with the cows and breathe fresh air and eat organic. We have to be realists. So what can we do? What can we do to help this outcome with tools that are at our fingertips? And those elements are really important for people and you can action immediately. And it's not like there aren't replacements for things, it's just about getting savvy about what it is that's in front of you, what you're eating, what you're drinking, how you're moving your body, what you're putting on your body, how much sleep you get, and finding a bit of joy in your day as well. Don't just be punching the whole time and leaving this idea of conceiving to this stressful moment. At the end of the day, you've got to, let's go
Brock Ashby (00:22:20):
Pretty much start the timer,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:22:23):
Which is unfortunately what it does come for a lot of couples, but do what you can to put some different strategies in place to give yourself the best outcome.
Brock Ashby (00:22:32):
One thing I've been communicating a lot, not so much with social media because it's not the most interesting idea that people latch onto, but that exercise is also a stress in life. And especially with my female clients, they struggle to have these longer rest periods because they well previously conditioned to do cardio and do kind of workouts like that. And I've hit training and stuff like that. And I feel like the overall knowledge base of content that's around is slowly getting better, that we're not getting, well, we not me speaking as a female, but that idea is becoming less prevalent. But even with rest periods, some of my clients struggle because they want to just do it and just have a high heart rate and just be sweaty and jumping from exercise to exercise. And that's, well number one, that's not how you get strong if that's a goal. But also I guess if you are trying to fall pregnant and conceive going and doing workouts where you're just running around and bouncing is probably not going to be the best idea,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:23:44):
Not the best.
Brock Ashby (00:23:46):
And I try to, obviously training in general is a great step to take, but yeah, allowing time to train I guess in a more efficient way, but also understand that training as a stress because sometimes we see it as a thing that's not stressful, it's therapeutic. I find training really therapeutic,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:24:07):
Same,
Brock Ashby (00:24:08):
And I look forward to it. If I don't do it, I feel a certain way and I'd feel uneasy and I feel agitated, so I'd really look forward to doing it. But sometimes it's hard to know that that is actually stressful on your body, but you see it as a therapeutic thing. So then you like, okay, you still work the same or you still have a stressful day or a stressful life, but then you pour this kind of intense training on top of it and then we kind of wonder why we're so wide or things aren't happening that the way that they usually do or are supposed to.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:24:40):
And that's I think importantly for a lot of women before trying to conceive, there's a lot of patterning that sometimes needs to be undone in order to be in a healthy place to conceive and to be calm and settle throughout your pregnancy, but also it sets you up for postpartum when you're just going to have to take it easy and look after yourself so that you can look after your baby in the most gentle way because that then sets you up for way further down the track. And you can return to training then, but sometimes people are so obsessive about exercise and training and this not having this rest period because that feeling's addictive and it's a really hard thing to give up. So when we do have our clients that might be that way inclined, we really do try to help set up planning and undo some patterns that serve them better than where they're at so that they start to reduce the stress in their body
Brock Ashby (00:25:46):
With environmental toxins that you're saying. Yeah,
(00:25:51):
I'm not sure if this falls into that category, but my wife is really looking at everything like fabric softeners and washing powders and stuff like that. Does that fall into the same thing? Is that a huge, or maybe not a huge, but is that something to consider now she's ordering, we're almost not getting anything from Woollies anymore. It's like we're going online to get these ones that don't have, and I don't know the exact things that they don't have or that they do have, but she does all the research on it, very interested in it, especially when it comes to washing to be born babies, clothes and blankets and all that kind of stuff. She wants her skin to be very free of this and that. Is that something to consider as well? Is that a huge thing or is that just something to throw in
Jacqueline Alwill (00:26:35):
There? It's definitely very reasonable what she's doing, and I don't know if she's not the first that I would've heard. And a lot of women and mothers and families will do that. And I think the best way to think about that in terms of if you're a couple trying to conceive is toxic load. So it's the accumulation of toxicity across the course of the day, week, year, years that's coming into play that we're trying to reduce in your body so you don't have to do everything overnight or Rome wasn't built in a day, so just pull back on things here and there where possible, for instance, we say where possible to our clients, if you can choose and can afford organic for certain things and choose organic, sometimes it's same cost, it's not a big thing or simple. Other things would be if you can choose a bpa, a free tin of beans, then you go for that one because we know BPA wreaks havoc on our hormones and just making those simple changes so that you're just reducing little portions here and there is really advantageous.
Brock Ashby (00:27:45):
And it'll counts up over time. Yeah,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:27:47):
Exactly. Exactly. Because it is this buildup, it's over years. And then some couples are spending years trying to conceive and not necessarily having this information or this knowledge to know that if they could just pull a few things here and there and understand how to optimise their health and nutrition, then they put themselves in a much better position for conception and for a healthy pregnancy. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:28:12):
Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen some people struggle for a long time and then some people it just happens first time. Is there a genetic role involved in that or is that just their lifestyle that they happen to live or because some people are just completely unaware and like you're saying 50% is accidental, 50% isn't. Do genetics play a big factor or is
Jacqueline Alwill (00:28:40):
That some not really a thing? In some cases, yes, but there's lots of different factors that can be at playwright age, undoubtedly a woman's born with all of her eggs. So we have one to 2 million eggs when we're born. By the time we hit puberty, there's around three to 400,000 and then we lose about 30 to 40 each day ongoing. So your optimal time to conceive is definitely in the earlier part of your life in your twenties and early thirties because the science does show us that after 35 fertility does start to decline and they use that awful godawful term, geriatric pregnancy, and you've all pregnant after 35. So I've had two of those. I'm like, I'm not a grandma.
(00:29:29):
So age is definitely a factor. And then for some people there might be underlying medical conditions that they just don't know about. So some women might have PCOS, polycystic ovaries, maybe there's endometriosis at play. And what we uncover with a lot of our clientele is a lot of thyroid abnormalities and that can affect ovulation. So that might be something that they just don't know about that unless they work with someone who does. They might just keep pushing through and pushing through and hoping for the best without doing the appropriate testing to know what they're working with and what they need to change. And replete working with someone and understanding as well, your cycle is really important in conceiving, so it might feel like your colleague is conceived really quickly, but maybe they're a little bit more in tune with their cycle. They're looking at their basal body temperature.
(00:30:37):
They know the rise and fall, they're very aware of their body, they're looking at cervical mucus, all of these signs in our body. Libido is a big sign as well of when you're ovulating. So there's a reason because your body is primed and ready to conceive. And a lot of clients and people are working with apps and they're waiting on a calendar to tell them when they're ovulating, when you can definitely use the app, but you need to be tuning into your body as well and understanding what your body's doing at different times of the month. And that's a really empowering experience as well for a woman or for someone who ovulates, I should say, because you learn so much about your body and that sets you up not only for conception, but for all of the rest of your life. You can really read, start to read and understand your hormones in such a different way that you can explain why you feel like this at a certain stage of your cycle and why you feel like down here at a certain stage of your cycle, you have such a better understanding of it.
(00:31:43):
There's male factor infertility that counts for 30 to 50% of infertility. So always if you have a male partner, then he needs to come to the table and be at the appointments with your naturopath or nutritionist and understanding what he needs to do to play his role in optimising his nutrition so that you can conceive healthfully together. And then I guess the other one which we've touched on just previously is stress. So sometimes, especially if people have had a long and challenging fertility journey, it does get stressful, but they can become really laser focused on, as I said, restricting certain things or not allowing enough of something like carbohydrate or not allowing fats in for whatever reason. And they might feel like they're eating the healthiest diet for their fertility, but they're so stressed about what they're eating that actually
Brock Ashby (00:32:40):
At the detriment.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:32:42):
And I think it's really important to look at stress in all aspects because health is not, nutrition is not just what you put in your mouth. And health is not just going to the gym and doing exercise and then eating well. It's so many different parts that combine. And when people understand each of those better within their lifestyle, then they just set themselves up so much better for a good result for a baby.
Brock Ashby (00:33:07):
Yeah. And how about pregnancy? So now it's a
Jacqueline Alwill (00:33:11):
Big question. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:33:13):
What about pregnancy? What do you think about it? So now that say we've fallen pregnant, is there any other things that I guess you would add to what, once again, the GP would say, or the person that you go see would say the obstetrician would say nutritionally or lifestyle wise, is it the same guidelines or is it slightly different?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:33:38):
It differs ever so slightly. I suppose what most women will come across in the first trimester is morning sickness, which really sucks. And for some women it's not just in the morning, it's all day.
Brock Ashby (00:33:50):
Yeah, we experienced that. Oh, it's so tough. I was like, man, morning sickness. It was like nighttime at work.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:33:56):
Oh, I really feel for you. So debilitating and exhausting. And you go from feeling so great potentially in preconception to feeling like, pardon my language, absolute shit. For a time when you feel like you should be awesome. I'm pregnant, I am life, I am all these great things, growing life things. I'm rowing life. I am woman. And you just feel like crawling under the donnar with a bucket near you and it just being the worst. So we really encourage people to take it easy on themselves. In the first trimester, you may not be wanting to eat the way that you previously ate. That's okay. That's why preconception nutrition is so important because you've replenished your body with the nutrients specific for fertility and for pregnancy, so you're not going to deplete them that quickly. And that's also why it's so important that whilst you don't feel like eating much, you're taking a really good quality prenatal vitamin and second trimester people, they get their energy back and they're feeling good. So that's a time when you can really dive back into eating lots of those really abundant foods, your iron rich foods, you're calling rich foods and creating meals that you feel like eating again. And then third trimester, you're feeling pretty stuffed. I'm sure giggy is at the moment, you're sort of waddling around like a mother duck before you're a mother, and by the time you've had a few children, you're just like, everyone can just do everything for me because
(00:35:33):
I can't do much. So I think you just have to learn to tread gently in pregnancy. Pregnancy is a stress test, the ultimate stress test. So rather than putting more stress on your body at a time when it's working so hard and growing and supporting your health and your baby's health, you just need to take it easy and reduce life stress, not go and do all the renovating and all the things that people like to do during pregnancy and pair it back a bit and just eat abundantly and eat good quality food. You don't have to eat double the amount. You're not eating for two people. You need to think about your micronutrient intake throughout pregnancy and focus on that being abundant and charged, not necessarily your sheer quantity of food.
Brock Ashby (00:36:25):
And so we move through this and we say we have a nice healthy birth.
(00:36:32):
What have you found that mothers struggle with on the back of that? And this doesn't have to be nutritional, it can be lifestyle wise, it could be mental health wise as well, because heard and I guess witnessed as we were talking about before the podcast, friends and family have had kids, and there's been a tonne of different experiences that I've seen from fathers that parent differently, mothers parent differently, and as a couple, some struggle, some thrive, it's all very different. What have you found, I guess most commonly with mothers or parents in general, and what advice would you offer?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:37:14):
I think there's this incredible pressure that people feel like they have to get back to something back to normal, back to their body, back to their social life, back to work, back to doing all these things that they did in their previous life. But when you have a child, a little baby, life changes forever. You can get back into your exercise and things like that. But in terms of getting your body back, I think it would probably be a really common one for a lot of women, your body has changed forever. You grew a human, that's the coolest thing ever.
(00:37:53):
Enjoy and celebrate that rather than spending your days when they actually in the end move super fast even though they feel like a really long day and night merged all together when they're newborns because they cry and feed and poop and you're just doing the same thing on repeat. But don't sit there and think about how you're going to get back into shape and get out and do this, that and the other because it'll come in time when you can go and do things that you love again. But those very short months when they're tiny, tiny, tiny people are so important and you can do so much to just look after yourself and your baby in that time. So that would be one another is that I think it's really important, and especially because people are on social media all the time, switch off and stop comparing what your experience is with your baby to what someone else's is because your experience is completely unique and everyone will have a piece of advice they want to offer you or chime in and tell you what you're not doing.
(00:39:01):
And that can be really traumatising, including sometimes family that want to knock on the door and come in and have a cup of tea and hold the baby, and then you're left to sort of clean things up. You are so entitled to say no to things that don't serve you and your little family at that point in time, if that's what's best for you and your little family. And sometimes that can be really hard for people, but it's totally okay. And you're also similarly so important to ask for help because you don't have to do it all. Just because you think that you can, doesn't mean that you should.
(00:39:39):
We need our village there is that saying we need a village to raise a child, and we really do. We need people around us that want to help us, not necessarily in ways that's sitting on the couch and having a tea, but the best thing that you can do is leave food on someone's doorstep with no expectation of going in and meeting the baby. Or if you do go in and meet the baby, say to the mom, I'll hold the baby. Go have a shower or by yourself without the worry of the scream, go and have some time just to yourself. And maybe in that shower she can let those tears out that she might have been holding in because she's shattered, because that's the reality. But that's some of the best things that you can do and things that I think people forget or they don't feel like they can so allow this, may this be your permission slip.
Brock Ashby (00:40:27):
Yeah, that's a super practical piece of advice I've seen, especially parents because they just want to come over and hold the baby or see the baby, and obviously they're your parents, so they just have this, I'll just walk in and I've seen that not go so well as well, and I think it's such an important conversation. To be honest, I'd never thought about it. I was just like, yeah, people will come over and it'll be all right, but I'm not carrying a baby.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:40:57):
It
Brock Ashby (00:40:57):
Can be really over overwhelming. I'm not feeding every two hours every three hours and doing all that stuff. So is really nice to hear as I guess a to be father because it's stuff that I never really think about because I'm just really play it by ear type of guy. Oh, people are coming over, let's get ready. But it's obviously a different experience for the mother. Yeah, totally.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:41:20):
And as we was talking about before the podcast, it sounds as though you guys have this beautiful, very clear communication space right now, and when people are exhausted, it's actually a lot harder to communicate. So I suppose by setting it up in this latter part of pregnancy that you're going to deal with some of the things that might not be well communicated when you've just had a baby, or if that's a habit that you create about sitting down and just talking openly as a couple about your parenting values or what you feel like who works best in what moment is dad better at doing the early part of the evening so mom can get a bit of an extra stint of sleep and he takes baby for a bottle for the first feed or something like that. Or is dad getting up and at least getting baby and bringing baby over to mama throughout the night In those early weeks, you have to just work as a team and understand how to communicate effectively so that everyone's going through this and learning their way through this whole new experience that's really raw in the best way possible.
Brock Ashby (00:42:34):
What are some changes that you had to make as a mother with, I guess I'm interested in the schedule of day-to-day work. It's like, obviously you don't have to share everything, but I find it really interesting to see how people work out their routine. Something that I'm really obsessed about is obviously I run my own business too, so I think about that a lot, and obviously I know that I'm going to be a father, which is a huge priority, but I also know that for me and for many other fathers, it's like you feel quite responsible for a certain amount of time because they're off work and you feel like you have this extra weight on your shoulder that you have to carry, and though it's not really extra weight, that's kind of just what it feels like. You feel like you have to step up as a man and start providing. So I've been thinking, but obviously we'll find out when we have a baby, what routine will I wake up and put the baby on and go for a walk and let her sleep, or will I do that later in the day? Or is there anything that you found that is super helpful or that you found really worked for you that other people could apply?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:43:49):
Yeah, I think the more that the partner can step in and help, the better the mother will feel, because she can get a sense of just feeling herself. A lot of mothers feel really touched out if they're constantly attached to baby, if they're doing all the settling, all the burping, all the feeding, all these things because of that pressure or perhaps the partner or the dad and the relationship are nervous about stepping in and interfering. So I feel like as much as you can step in and give a hand wherever possible is really advantageous. You'll find your groove, no doubt in no time, whether that's, and you'll find a way to work a newborn and a little baby into the routine that already exists. If it's a strong routine that works for both of you, if no routine currently exists, then it makes it a lot harder to find one. And some babies will really adapt well to routine. And a lot of babies are really fluid similarly, so that's how some parents feel. They prefer a more fluid approach, and other people really like routine, but however you can set yourself up to just look after her in postpartum, look after your wife, because she needs so much support in that postpartum period because your body is naturally deplete after birth. It's really emotional. Your hormones are everywhere.
Brock Ashby (00:45:20):
Yeah, we're still going through that. We're still navigating it. Yeah, it comes out of nowhere. Hi. Yeah. Actually this morning on the way to the gym, there was a dog with three legs, and I was like, oh, there's a dog. I was like, oh, there's a dog with three legs. It was really cute. And then my wife started crying and I was like, she was crying. The dog had three legs and you didn't want to see him, which would never happen normally, but yeah, it's just a heightened emotion.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:45:51):
Totally, totally heightened. So I feel like wherever possible dads can step in and help moms and nourish them and support them, make sure the water bottles topped up for feeding, make sure there's a little snack jar of nuts in the locations where mom likes to feed, step in wherever possible. You might have priorities about going surfing. Maybe they need to just be paid back a bit or all those things, and you'll find your groove. But women in the postpartum period in that four weeks or 40 days, essentially following birth, the golden month, they need so much nurturing. So wherever a partner can step in and support that and reach out to friends and say, you know what? We would really love a meal train or anything dropped on our doorstep because I suck at cooking and I can own that now and do those sorts of things so that you're looking after them is I think my best piece of advice there. Yeah, that's great.
Brock Ashby (00:46:55):
Yeah. And what about your training and nutrition that you do? Personally, I'm interested because it's nice to hear it from a mother herself because there's a lot of, oh, I'll do this and train this many times per week, but what do you do and what do you find works for you
Jacqueline Alwill (00:47:11):
Now
Brock Ashby (00:47:14):
And previously if you want to take us on, I guess, how your training has evolved, evolved too, and not as me as a person and then a to be parent and then a parent later on, just as a person. My interests have changed. Yes. So yeah, what's your journey been like?
Jacqueline Alwill (00:47:34):
I love exercise. I don't take the privilege of moving my body daily for granted. I really do believe, and I think that's where I've really landed now, is that I movement is a privilege. So find something you love and do something to move your body every single day. I definitely have in the past used training obviously as a stress release, but also it was a stress all because I had a savage eating disorder for all of my teens and most of my twenties. It was when I felt pregnant with Jet, my first that I actually looked at that marker and went, it's time to resolve this. And I used training in a way that it was about burning off and getting rid of the guilt. If I just burn this, then it was this equation constantly, which is also things that helped evolve into my work in nutrition as well.
(00:48:34):
So it definitely has gone very far away from that place. And I've learned a lot about my body, certainly in the past three years than I, more so than any other time of my life with having two babies essentially back to back 17 months apart and beating a grandma pregnancy, a geriatric pregnancy. So I really took heeded of the professionals being my physios and had them look at my current injuries and my pregnancies and things that had come up and went very gently with my training throughout pregnancy. Still stayed strong and stayed active and things, but learned the big lesson after having Jet my first almost 13 years ago. I got back into it way too quickly, and I definitely damaged myself after that. It was like three weeks later, and this is the knowledge that I didn't have, right? No one at that point said to me, don't train for six weeks, go gently. I didn't know.
(00:49:52):
So I really learned from that. And then in these subsequent pregnancies, I just learned to go a bit slower December two years ago when after my third baby, things weren't feeling right still. I had label tears in my hips that had been diagnosed some years earlier, but I could not move my legs in and out of bed, in and out of the car. It was just painful to put on my shoes, all these things. So I went and did some further investigations, and I actually got osteoarthritis in both hips. So I'm lined up for bilateral replacement in February this year, really? So I actually am a granny, but I'm a vibrant one. So really when I say that it's a privilege to move your body and find something that makes your body feel good and that you can move through life without injury or without pain. I really do every day live and breathe that I can get up and I do things to make sure that I'm still active and I feel good and I feel strong, and I definitely am one of those people that is addictive to the endorphin rush after training, and I sweat heaps. So I get that beautiful detox as well. When I train, I sweat buckets.
(00:51:08):
But I love that I've learned so much about my body in this timeframe, and I can still understand it in a way that I can find things that give me the high that I need without giving me the pain that I don't want. So yeah, so at the moment, actually, our training is very unique in that we're doing what we've titled the Ironman Challenge for January. I'm doing a fundraiser with my partner to raise money for motor neuron disease. We lost his dad to motor neuron disease a few years ago, so it's January. We're dedicating to raising funds for motor neuron disease, and this month we're doing an Ironman challenge. So each week we are completing 180 K ride, a 3.8 kilometre swim, and a 42.2 kilometre. He'll do a run, and I do it on the ski erg, all movements, modalities that I just don't feel pain from, but I get this amazing high from, I'm doing it with purpose because we're raising funds and for me, certainly coming from a background where I loved competing as well, I loved running and doing all those events, and I was a competitive swimmer in my teens.
(00:52:27):
I'm really like, I love the competition and the bigger side of it, so it's nice to do something now that I've finished having all my babies, that I feel like I'm releasing all this stuff at the same time and I feel really good. And that's what I speak a lot about, certainly in my platform as well. I don't take that lightly that people listen when you say things like movement is a privilege, so just don't make it a punish. Don't go to the HIIT classes you feel like you should. That'll be your best body because your colleague loves it. Go and do yoga if that's what you want to go dance, if that's what you want to go and do, go triathlons if that's what floats your boat, but just find something you love.
Brock Ashby (00:53:17):
Yeah, I feel like injuries are a reminder. That movement is privilege. Even obviously my injury that I've had previous or just recently is not as intense as yours, but I just kind of hurt my rotator cuff and then it hasn't healed properly, and it's just been a while that I haven't been able to use my shoulder properly. But even that as someone that likes to really push themselves and lift as heavy as possible and push my body to limit, I started juujitsu as well a year and a half ago. So I've been doing that and I wasn't able to do what I wanted to do. I was like, man, when I get back to using my body properly, I'm going to do my warmups. I'm going to make sure that I'm warm. I'm going to do my stretches if I need to do stretches. Because it's like, yeah, you have to have those kind of reminders. Well, you don't have to, but I feel like I treat them as, all right, bro, get your shit together, do the rotator cuff stuff that you don't want to do before you're at the gym, but you kind of have to do it. And it's kind that investment into longevity.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:54:16):
Totally. And I feel like you fall in love with things that perhaps you've really resented before. When you have injury a hundred percent, you start to fall in love with things like you warm up activation. I hated the foam roller before, man. I love that thing now. And I keep it in a really obvious place. And when my children are watching cartoons or if we're watching a movie at night, I get on the phone roller and it's not such a thing anymore when
Brock Ashby (00:54:42):
It's just part of what have to do.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:54:44):
Well, the skier, I hated that machine so much until 18 months ago or so, or however many months it was. And when I realised that running was super uncomfortable because of what was happening, but I hadn't yet had the diagnosis, I stopped and I was like, I've just got to find another machine that I really love. I can't run on a treadmill. I can't run in a park and do the thing that I previously loved. So how do I rework this? How do I change my mental state so that I can still find something that I love? And so I did that and it's cool and it keeps me focused, and it's cool. You learn so much through different things that you feel like they are challenging, but you feel like they're the biggest challenges at the time. But then when you simmer it down, the learnings are greater.
Brock Ashby (00:55:38):
It's that process of going from being bad at something to getting better at it, which is offputting.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:55:44):
Yes. And that's the hardest part,
Brock Ashby (00:55:46):
So good at this, that when you go to being crap, you have to endure this time where you are uncomfortable or unsure if things are being done right.
Jacqueline Alwill (00:55:57):
Correct. Yeah, it's
Brock Ashby (00:55:58):
Humbling. Yeah, I've definitely learned that from jiujitsu because you start off as a white belt where you dunno anything, and you are already on the first class, you might roll with the professor who's like a black belt and done it for 10, 20 years. You get, obviously they don't smash you, but then maybe the purple bat in the middle will because
Jacqueline Alwill (00:56:16):
Why not? Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:56:17):
Why not? You don't dunno anything. So
Jacqueline Alwill (00:56:19):
They'll just try.
Brock Ashby (00:56:20):
Yeah. And I feel like kind of persevere through that first year. It takes a certain person to keep going because you're getting pummelling, you're getting smashed. You are not in top position, you're not dominating anyone. You're literally getting dominated. And if you have a problem with that, you will just quit because I don't know, you may have an insecurity or something, but once you get past this point, I'm still not there. I still suck, but I feel like now I might have one to 2% more success than I did when I first started. And I'm like, that feels good. But it's like that year of, and maybe it doesn't have to be a year. Maybe it's just a month of training a certain way that needs to be better for you now. But it's definitely worth it, as you said, if the learning is greater than where you're at now,
Jacqueline Alwill (00:57:11):
And don't discount the one to 2% gains, whether it's nutrition and you've made, I always say this to people, stop trying to change everything all at once. Make one habit that you're going to stick to and do that for a period of time before trying to introduce the next, because that's a small percentage change. But once you start doing that, small percentage changes frequently, you'll sustain them for longer, and that's successful. That's a sign of success.
Brock Ashby (00:57:41):
But that's such an uphill battle as you're saying. We're on social media so much where everything is so polarising and everything's so extreme that this whole grey area of slow success, a positive trajectory that will get you there in the long run, it's just not popping up anywhere because it doesn't get rewarded, it doesn't get eyes, it doesn't get the shock value. That's one thing that kind of frustrates me at the moment with social media as I've, I guess, become more mature maybe Back in the day when I first started posting, I was like, yeah, that's cool. I get likes and views and stuff, and now I don't care as much more about the message of what I'm trying to say. But yeah, it's just not sexy to say, Hey, man, just do one habit for a week and then another habit for maybe a month, and then we'll keep adding on because it, it's not shocking.
(00:58:31):
It's not, I didn't know that. Everyone knows that. Everyone knows that if you save $10 a week, it's better than trying to save a grand than a week if you can. And then failing and then going, oh, well, I'm just going to spend everything because I'm just fed up and I'm a failure and all this kind of stuff. And the same thing happens with nutrition. The same thing happens with training. You go from no training to training every day. You go from eating whatever you eat to going keto and you can't sustain it. That's it. It's just a cycle that we get caught up in. It's so hard. I did want to talk about one thing just before we do the final three questions. You talked about your eating disorder previously, and we don't have to spend a lot of time on it, but I've been through my own journey.
(00:59:13):
I don't really know how to categorise if I had an eating disorder or not, but I personally think I did. But then I don't want to be this person that's like, oh, feel sorry for me. I did, but maybe I did, maybe I didn't. But I definitely struggled with calorie intake, like you said, trying to burn this to do this. And I'd have a burger and I'd do a plank at home and AB work out to try and burn it off, and I'd do everything. How did you navigate through that? Because for me, mine was not overnight and I can't see the day where I made a change, but it happened somewhere. And for me, looking back at it, it was me eradicating dichotomous thinking of good and bad, and I actually had to lean into the bad foods to actually find out the next day that I was okay and that it didn't make me fat, which I was terrified. Well, not terrified of, but gaining body fat. Oh, it's the worst thing in the world back then. Oh no, you can't do that and be a personal trainer. No way.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:00:19):
No one's measuring your body pad on the daily
Brock Ashby (01:00:22):
Except you. Yeah, I would have things like ice cream and cake and donuts and all that kind of stuff. That's supposedly bad. But then the next day I was like, oh, I actually don't feel like a bad person. I haven't gained a lot of weight that I thought it was, I don't actually feel that terrible, not saying that that's what I recommend to people, but that was kind of my way through it, accepting that I can have foods like that and it didn't make a big difference. Obviously it's not the most health seeking thing to do, but I needed that at the time. What helped get you through that tough period? Because I know everyone has different experiences and everyone goes through that process for different reasons.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:01:05):
Yeah, similar sorts of things. So we do know that when you restrict certain foods, it only makes you crave them more, and that's why people go and binge on foods as a result as well. When you put them in good or bad, you crave the bad and then it's uncontrollable when you're near them. Or the tormenting thoughts that you have around your bad foods when you're eating them is just out of control. So when you start to just work on releasing and letting go of this list of restrictions and the dos and you have to do this and you can't do that, and all these rules that you have around your diet and health, and this is what I mean, you can't let go of all those rules one at a time, sorry, all at once. You need to let go of them just slowly over time.
(01:01:53):
Otherwise it's overwhelming and otherwise you just go back and sometimes step even further back into it than what you were when you started, which is dangerous. So just letting go of those things one at a time. I do remember those months following when I was really acknowledged that there was still an issue at play, and this is 15 years on, I was like, I don't feel like I can do this. I don't think this serves me. I'm not energised in the way that I feel like I want to be, but yet, and I don't sleep as much and I think I'm missing out on some parts of life that I think I'd really like to enjoy friends because going out and eating pizza and pasta on a Friday night and having a wine but not going home and then either purging it or starving myself for the next two days because I wanted to reduce my caloric intake so significantly to counterbalance what I'd eaten on that night.
(01:02:54):
I was like, if they others majority can seem to do that, I'm sure I can find a way that I can do that too. So finding good people to surround you whilst you're moving through these sorts of things is pretty important because if you're in a toxic environment with people that are perpetuating an issue at a gym maybe where lots of people are obsessing in the PT room at the back over those sorts of things, a hundred percent. Sometimes that can be a problem and certainly women will attract what they are at a different time of life. That's just natural and men too, but people attract what they are at different stages of life. So when you start to address what's around you and the noise that's getting in your ear about these things, that can be a really great step forward and just letting go slowly of these rules, going out and having a dinner.
(01:03:52):
I remember walking home one night, I was like, you know what? In this moment I feel like a chocolate ice cream and I was on my own and I bought myself a magnum and I ate it and I was okay and I didn't go and try and beat myself up the next day for it. I just moved on. And I didn't do that every night and I didn't do it every week, but maybe once a fortnight I would go out with friends, eat dinner, have a wine, and then enjoy the ice cream on a walk home, not, I was trying to hide it. We hadn't eaten dessert dinner, whatever. But it was just that moment of going, I'm okay with this and I will be okay and everything will be okay. And I wanted to ultimately, I think as well that marker in this time for me was I'd had Jet, my eldest and I was two years in, was a single mom, and I still realised, I was like, there's some patterns here that you know what?
(01:04:56):
I don't want my son growing up observing this of me. Ultimately, I don't want my daughters if I have more children, I don't want anyone growing up observing this of me because we are role models to our children. I want my children to see a healthy and happy mom and to know that eating all foods is totally okay. Obviously I love healthy, nutritious food, but it's still okay to have your magnum every now and then because you're human and you need to live a life of balance, not restriction and ultimately wanting to become the best role model for my kids, put me in a position to become the best role model for myself. I had to resolve that. For me, it was like, this doesn't need to go on any longer. I don't need to be ming up my body in this way any longer. There's greater joy out there than the obsession I have over the calories that are going in my body. So it is this combination of learning and studying nutrition really intensely having a child and trying to let go of these patterns of disordered eating, which had chased me around for 15 years. It was really intense time, but my God, it was so worth it.
Brock Ashby (01:06:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:06:21):
So liberating, isn't it? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:06:22):
Yeah. It's when
Jacqueline Alwill (01:06:23):
You finally let go and you look back at that time, you're like, how did I even exist?
Brock Ashby (01:06:26):
Yeah, you think, man, because my wife's been through a similar thing. We've found out after dating for a while that we had a pretty similar experience with food, really low calorie stuff and over exercising, treating twice a day, all that kind of stuff. And I do think for females it can be slightly more damaging hormone wise than it is for men. Absolutely. I don't know if that's a hundred percent true, but from what you say, I kind of guess it is because she definitely had a more negative impact than I did. My energy was not so good, but I overpowered that with my mindset, just work
Jacqueline Alwill (01:07:00):
Harder type
Brock Ashby (01:07:00):
Thing. It's crazy what your mind can do, but I feel like her experience affected her more on a long-term basis with things like inflammation and swelling and her gut and things like that. And I feel like I didn't really experience that, so we had some similarities there. But yeah, we looked back and we were like, man, I can't believe that we would just think about food so much. We'd literally just think about what we're going to eat the whole day. And it's like you're just obsessed about it. I think one of the biggest compliments I ever got from, as a coach from one of my clients was actually, his name's Doug. He's from the Northern beaches actually. And I did coaching with him and his piece of advice or his kind of, I guess testimonial type thing was that he lost about seven or eight kilos in eight weeks, and though it's not a race to lose body fat, he was turning 60 and he wanted to sort out his triglycerides because he wasn't in cholesterol, they weren't, weren't in a healthy place, and we got them in that space of time to a healthy place.
(01:08:06):
And he was though, because throughout the time he was having burgers and beers. Not every night, but he thought that was just crazy. He thought that was inconceivable. And that's what I love about the idea of being flexible with your food is that and what works long-term, because I've been that person that boils vegetables that does everything like that, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I just over overdid it. I was like, there's no nothing else on here except salt and pepper. Nothing else, not lemon. No. I was like, nothing. Yeah. Wow. Well, first of all, I'm a terrible chef, so that stuff could have probably worked, but I was just like salt and pepper, meat boiled vegetables, boiled boiled eggs. Everything was just in water, so it was tasted terrible and low calorie, this and that. And I was just eating pumpkin because pumpkin was 33 calories per cup and I could eat heaps and my skin was going orange. I remember sitting there, I remember sitting there looking at my hands like, man, do I have cancer? And then I was like, I'm eating heaps of carrots and pumpkin. That's why. So yeah, it's been a wild ride, but it's crazy to think when you get through it, which can be a long journey or a short journey, you can't believe how you can just sit down at a dinner or go out to dinner with friends and just leave satisfied because that idea seems so crazy at the time. Yeah,
Jacqueline Alwill (01:09:30):
Absolutely. And it's a wonderful thing, and you were saying before about how social media loves a shock factor. They don't necessarily want to hear about the one or 2% changes, but I guess, and maybe what you experienced too is you end up just attracting the people that understand your message and can relate to it and can put it into practise in that way, Doug, for instance, you don't have to restrict and get everything out of your diet that you deemed bad food or you didn't understand what you were eating in order to lose the weight that you'd like to be in better health. You can still have a bit of that stuff and that can be part of your lifestyle, but it doesn't need to be every day, and nor do you need to restrict it. There is a much better and balanced way than what the diets and those fad diets, and there are a lot of them out there at this time of year as well. So many due to people because if diets worked, then one, you'd stay on them long-term because they worked, or two, you'd get the results that you want and they'd stay. But ultimately, those results generally don't hang around forever.
Brock Ashby (01:10:43):
The data on successful diets and weight loss long-term is not very in our favour. No, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, that's the battle I'm fighting, and I'm sure you are too, to try and make things more sustainable. Yes. But yeah, once again, that shock value is not there with sustainable weight loss. Yeah. Cool, man. Next,
(01:11:03):
Let's do the final three questions. That's what we are here for a long time, but I've really enjoyed this. This has been really cool. So the Better with Brock podcast, I'm quite obsessed with self-development, so I've always been from a, I think it was from deep down, I lost my mom at a young age. So I've always been very obsessed with, I guess making the most of life and being the best person I can. So that's one reason I wanted to make this podcast too, I guess help me learn more as well. But also the listeners become better, not just only in fitness and nutrition and body transformation stuff, which is what I do for work, but ultimately just to become a better person because I feel like we aren't guaranteed anything, even just to wake up the next day. You just never know. And that's not to put a shadow on life, but just I guess more so sunshine on Life to be make the most of every day. So these questions are just mainly around, and it may be tools that have got you there, but the first one is a book that has helped you become better as a person.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:12:08):
Undoubtedly, the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown.
Brock Ashby (01:12:12):
I haven't read that.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:12:13):
Oh, I really recommend it small. I like
Brock Ashby (01:12:16):
Small books.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:12:16):
Yeah, no, don't you reckon? Because you can just tuck 'em in places and then you read a few pages here and there, and then you've read this book and you feel tick of the box or read another book
Brock Ashby (01:12:27):
And it doesn't sit there weighing
Jacqueline Alwill (01:12:30):
This lurking. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:12:31):
I'm in a big one at the moment. I haven't touched it for a while because I'm like, it's too intimidating.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:12:36):
It is. Yeah. That one for me came about at a time of my life when it was probably in this resolve of things that I was trying to control with eating disorders, and I was a single parent. I'd just launched my business. I really wanted things to be awesome, but also perfect. And a good friend who has mentored me throughout the years said to me one day, Jack perfectionism is a beast, so you be careful of that beast, won't you? Because it's not necessarily a good thing. And then I'd come across Brene Brown's work through some other means and picked up the book, and it's that book that I have Mark and highlighted all sorts everywhere. Everywhere. Everything's important here.
(01:13:29):
How do I capture the whole book is highlighted and marked up because it just had such an impact on me and I won't ruin it. I really think you should read it. But letting go of perfection and just stepping into things wholeheartedly and without any other intention than just being really present and authentic at that moment without thinking of how you can make it the perfect moment or the perfect presentation of something like sometimes done is just good enough. You've done it and that's great. That steps you away from not doing it at all fearful of you won't perfect it. So that was a really, really a powerful book that just landed at the right time, and I really take stock of that stuff. I'm really aware of when I want something to be awesome, but also if that's holding me back from just getting it out there, then just get it out there. Your worst critic is yourself, so if you let go of some of those perfecting habits and just get out there and do it, you feel a whole lot better for it.
Brock Ashby (01:14:43):
Yeah, that can often just lead to lack of action. I've experienced that too. I have a similar mindset where you want everything to be perfect and then it just never comes out. And maybe you miss that timing business-wise, where it would've popped. Or even just say renovating a house when you're having a newborn or trying to be saying it's like, is this going to be fine for now or do we need to be crazy and stressed at this time? Yeah, that's super important. I'll definitely have to get onto that. Yeah. Second one is a quote that has helped you become a better person.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:15:18):
I found this one in my early days of being a single parent and running a business, and it was every day you have two choices. You can stay asleep with your dreams or wake up and chase them. And I loved that one because again, it came, I guess the perfectionism and just getting out there and doing it and not overthinking it was really powerful for me. It's like have all these great dreams and you can sit and you can keep dreaming about them, or you can just go out and take one step that day towards realising them and maybe sometimes they won't be what you had hoped they would be, but at least you gave it a crack. At least you got out of bed, at least you made that call, did that podcast, connected with that person, went and put yourself out there in whatever way, took that first client on because you wanted to start your business in nutrition, whatever it was, but at least you gave it a crack.
(01:16:16):
You didn't sit with it. Because I guess the biggest thing with people not realising their dreams and what they want from life is that you have to step out of a comfort zone, and that can be scary and things may not work out, and then you might think you're a failure, but you're actually not. You're really not. And what's that other great quote? The master has failed more times than the student has tried. I love that. I've never heard that. Yeah, my meditation teacher taught me that years ago, Jackie Lewis at the Broad Place, and that was awesome too. It's like it's okay to fail. You're just got to pick yourself up, and the more fails you have, the better you are at actually getting yourself up again. So they've been really powerful in my journey, in my journey in business, in my journey in motherhood as a daughter, as a friend. They're probably the two that have hit heart the
Brock Ashby (01:17:16):
Most. Yeah, I think that's one thing my dad had installed in me at quite a young age. So supportive of everything and just everything has just given a go. I played six sports growing up. It was like, just give it a go. And then that kind of panned out into my attitude as I got older where I just try everything. So previously before I was a personal trainer, I was a singer. Right. Really? Yeah, I was a singer. Do you close
Jacqueline Alwill (01:17:41):
The podcast with a future?
Brock Ashby (01:17:43):
Yeah, I
Jacqueline Alwill (01:17:43):
Probably should. Can you?
Brock Ashby (01:17:46):
I probably should, but yeah, my dad, you
Jacqueline Alwill (01:17:48):
Listening?
Brock Ashby (01:17:49):
Actually, I sang to her at our wedding.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:17:53):
I love
Brock Ashby (01:17:54):
That. I wrote a song for her, so I don't really sing anymore, but I just joke around. I just sing to my wife type thing. But yeah, so I did that. I literally tried everything. I did TV presenting for a while. I did music. I did sport, not at a professional level because I chose the wrong sport that wasn't professional, but at a high level where at any other sport you probably would get paid.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:18:18):
What
Brock Ashby (01:18:19):
Was it? I played touch rugby. Okay.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:18:21):
No, you don't hear about touch rugby yet.
Brock Ashby (01:18:23):
Exactly. Yeah. I was like, hopefully this goes fish. And then I got asked to play for New Zealand, and then they were like, oh, but it costs X amount of grand. And I was a student, so I was like, well, that's me. I'm out. But yeah, my dad was always very encouraging and maybe I wasn't the best at this or that, but I just tried and I feel like what I've learned is just perseverance. You just try so many times that eventually, hopefully something works out and usually it does because even the things that you've failed on, you've learnt something out of that failure. You try this and all these 10 attempts that you've had, you've learned something that may not even be specific to what you're trying to achieve, but they're kind of life lessons that you put in your bag and take for the rest of your life.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:19:09):
Yeah, it's so true. And even my son said that to me when I was able to surf a couple of years ago, and I'm looking forward to getting back on the surfboard once my hips are done. But we're out in the surf and he's a great surfer and he was a little whip of snapper then like 10 years old, and I was out there and he was just getting wave after wave after wave, and I was just getting smashed. I went to go, I was like, I don't think I can do another wave when you get smashed. He's like, mom, you're always going to get smashed, but you're always pop up. I was like, okay, cool. Well, thanks for teaching me that lesson that I've taught you and now it's coming back at me and I really love that you're going to get smashed undoubtedly, but at least you're having a go that's most important.
Brock Ashby (01:19:50):
Yeah. Last question. One thing you do every day that helps you become better.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:19:58):
I move my body. I move my body every day. I get out of the house mostly first thing in the morning to get some fresh air to connect with other people because certainly running a business from home and also running a family, a big family as well, there's a lot of home time if you don't get out of the house first thing, and I'm really aware of that and the impact that not getting out and moving has on my mental health. Aside from this unique time in January, it's walking, it's yoga in very gentle way now. It's swimming. I love ocean swimming, I love pool swimming. I've really gotten back into all of that. I love moving with my kids in whatever way I possibly can down at the beach, and that's really important to me. I want that to be our lifestyle and for them to feel like that makes them a better person too. You get out there and you just enjoy life, move, get to know people. There's so much that you can do through movement. You meet people, you bump into people, you throw balls at people's heads by accident. It's awkward, but at least you can have a chat. All sorts of things happen when you're out there, and ultimately you just feel better about yourself and for yourself, and you're making the most of life and the body that you're so privileged to live in.
Brock Ashby (01:21:21):
Awesome. Well, we better wrap it up there. Where can people find you or where do you want to send people? Obviously you have the two different businesses,
Jacqueline Alwill (01:21:30):
Very confusing. Yeah, so you'll find me at Brown Paper Nutrition and at Day One Fertility, two different places offering hopefully an abundance of things that you can get your hands on and learn from and enjoy and take with you in whatever's ahead of you.
Brock Ashby (01:21:52):
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks for
Jacqueline Alwill (01:21:55):
Having me.
Brock Ashby (01:21:56):
I think it's super important for people like yourself to be in the industry that are focused on sustained success and things that are founded in evidence and founded in things that work like science and not just anecdote, even though that is important, I think it's important to mix it with things that are actually trusted because man, even just being on TikTok and stuff like that, the things that are big and go wild are just, it can frustrate you if you Well, it definitely frustrates me like, why is this going crazy when it literally doesn't mean anything or doesn't stand on anything certain that can be successful. So yeah, keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. I appreciate that. I wish you nothing but the best. It's been awesome to catch up.
Jacqueline Alwill (01:22:41):
Yeah, look forward to seeing you. New baby arrive too. It was so exciting. I might have to land a little brown paper bag of goodness on your doorstep. You've said you're not a great cook. I've, I've taken that on board. Terrible. I do know what mothers and new families need when they've just had a baby, so I'll organise a little delivery to your doorstep.
Brock Ashby (01:23:01):
Awesome. Alright, thanks for
Jacqueline Alwill (01:23:02):
Coming on. My absolute pleasure. Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 27 of the Better with Brock podcast. I have Sarah Liz King here, and we're going to unpack a lot of things today I'm really interested in, well, what Sarah was saying is the recovery side of fitness, well, not necessarily just recovery, but I guess the more in-depth conversations of fitness that aren't just about losing weight and getting shredded and building muscle. And even though that can be super important, I want to dive into, I dunno how to explain it. Maybe the warmer side of fitness, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. The more nuanced side. But for people that may not know you, can you give us a quick one minute elevator picture of who you are?
Sarah Liz King (00:00:45):
So as you said, my name is Sarah Liz King. I am, I mean everyone just knows me as Sarah, but on social media, I'm Sarah Liz King. I'm an exercise physiologist by trade and also a health and recovery coach. I work in predominantly the non-diet space, which just means that I'm really focused on people's health behaviours and not necessarily what the outcomes are attached to those. And I specialise in supporting individuals recovering from eating disorders, disordered eating or different women's health conditions, predominantly one called hypothalamic a amenorrhea, which is the loss of your menstrual cycle from over exercising, under fueling, or too much stress. So a lot of people know me online as the period lady that kind of always talks about how important they are. And to be honest, never thought I would be doing that for work, but here we are. So that is me in a nutshell for my work. Outside of that, I live in Bondi, so I love going to the beach. You can see me most of the time walking my tiny little dog, Henry, who's a cute little fur ball.
Brock Ashby (00:02:01):
What breed is Henry,
Sarah Liz King (00:02:02):
He's a Cavoodle and he's 18 months old now, and just an absolute character. He was a Covid purchase, a rather spontaneous one, but ended up
Brock Ashby (00:02:14):
Being, I think there was many covid purchases.
Sarah Liz King (00:02:18):
Literally my friend was like, I'm getting a dog. And I was like, I wonder if I can get a dog. And then from the Friday to the Monday I was like, I have a dog. Wow. So look, it was a spontaneous decision, but ended up being a really, really good one. So yeah, outside of that, I just love being outdoors, being active, and seeing my friends. Now that we can get back to a little bit of normality, I'm also excited to travel more as well.
Brock Ashby (00:02:45):
And with your coaching, are you predominantly dealing with women? Is there any men coaching or are you just training females? Obviously you're dealing with menstrual cycles, which
Sarah Liz King (00:02:57):
Is, yeah, so I see a diverse range of people. When I worked in private practise before I went online, I actually used to see both male and female clients. Now, when I work online, I do mostly work with people that have periods. So I have worked with the trans community and I have also worked with predominantly women, but anyone that I guess identifies themselves as a woman is the predominant population that I deal with.
Brock Ashby (00:03:27):
And you started off Yes. So just like me, I started in a gym in New Zealand. I was in a gym called City Fitness, which was just on Queen Street of Auckland, the busiest place ever, the main street. And then I went to Gold Coast and did it there as well. And then I did it here in Sydney at Fitness first. How was that transition to going online? Because it's a journey and there's no real blueprint to online coaching like, oh, just do this and create a website and then this is how you get clients and they just come flocking to you. Yeah. How did you transition?
Sarah Liz King (00:04:00):
I fumbled my way through. We all do. So yes, I was working face-to-face. I'd already kind of niched down into eating disorders, body image issues, women's health conditions, P-C-O-S-H-A, all of those kinds of things. And I had done a lot of networking with GPS in the area. I'd worked at a couple of hospitals. I tried to do quite a bit of the groundwork, and along the way I was building my social media presence. I think the most helpful thing that I did was I started a podcast in 2019 because like I just wanted a way to talk about things that meant something to me and had an impact on people beyond the little snippets that they would get of the photo that you would post on Instagram. Because it wasn't really until 18 months ago that we were posting reels and videos and things. It was like, here is a beautiful photo. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:04:55):
Instagram was,
Sarah Liz King (00:04:56):
Yeah, it was picture
Brock Ashby (00:04:57):
Sharing, pushing photos. Yeah, that's what it was created for. Oh, look at this photo. And then you start posting a photo and all of a sudden no one cared. Nope,
Sarah Liz King (00:05:03):
Nobody
Brock Ashby (00:05:04):
Caress. I was like, oh, that was interesting. These transformation photos used to do really well. People were inspired from transformation photos, and then you'd post the same thing and you'd get a hundred likes. And I was like, that's interesting. And then they started pushing reels.
Sarah Liz King (00:05:17):
So during that time at the end of 2019, I was actually working for another coach who had an online business, and I was kind of doing that on the side, wasn't really talking about it too much, but that gave me a lot of insight into what it was like to coach online. And obviously I'd done lots of coaching and because of the population I worked with and I dealt with, I wasn't just kind of going, here's your programme. There was a lot of stuff around behavioural change and obstacles and all of the things that inherently come with long-term success and helping someone build healthy habits, which is your mindset. So that is, I would say 75% of the work that I do now is really helping people step out of their own way a lot of the time and giving them the strategies to be able to do that.
(00:06:16):
So when I went online fully, my parents were like, you're crazy. And I was like, just give it six months. And then covid hit and I was like, cool, I have no other choice. So I really just took one strategy and ran with it. I was like, I'm going to build my email list. I'm going to sell one thing, I'm going to see how it goes and I'm going to be more niched in my podcast content. And I did all three things and within a few months people were like, oh, this really resonates with me. And I started to get more and more clients to the point that I was fully booked. And then I was like, cool, now I'm going to have to start a group coaching programme because there's only one of me and there's so many other people to help. And that's when I created my first programme targeted for hypothalamic amenorrhea recovery. Not sexy, but helping people get their periods back. Super
Brock Ashby (00:07:15):
Important, but it's super sexy to the people that struggle with it from the outside,
Sarah Liz King (00:07:18):
Super sexy. You
Brock Ashby (00:07:19):
Just go, okay, that's never going to be me. But if that is you, and I know people that fall into that category a hundred percent, they'll do anything to get
Sarah Liz King (00:07:28):
Back. The biggest thing for me was I wish, and I went through that whole thing myself. I didn't have a menstrual cycle for 10 years and I was like, I wish I had had this to, and I'm probably too much of a perfectionist to the depth that I provide within that course. So that course has been running. We're on round nine now, so it's been huge success. It's so wonderful seeing the babies that get born as a result of this. And I was like, that's wild. I helped that. Obviously I helped the beginning stages of that, but getting those photos and getting the messages from all of the families and their women, it lights me up. And I think as much as there are struggles and so many things to consider when you run an online business, I wouldn't change it for the world now.
Brock Ashby (00:08:22):
So what made you dive into this niche? You said that you had 10 years without your menstrual cycle. Was that the primary driver? Was there other things that drove you into going, okay, I just want to help these people?
Sarah Liz King (00:08:35):
Look, I had a lived experience of both an eating disorder and hypothalamic amenorrhea, and I actually never thought that I would make it my full career. I thought to myself, I'd love to give back in some way. And then when I started in private practise, I was like, well, the hospital that I did an outpatient programme in, which helped me probably that was the turning point in recovering from my eating disorder. I was like, they don't do anything movement wise with their eating disorder unit. They might go for a walk, but they never really get any feedback on what's okay, what's not okay, how do I transition back to moving in a healthy way once I leave hospital? And so I was like, I'll do it. I'll be the person. And I was really lucky that the head of admissions for eating disorders, she was the head of admissions for the programme that I did.
(00:09:38):
So she already knew me and I think they just gave me a shot and I was so grateful for it. And so I worked there a couple of days a week and then I just found it so fulfilling. And at the time then I got contacted by someone who was looking to, oh, that's right. I did a webinar by a girl who was eating disorders and exercise, and it was through essa, which is Exercise and Sports Science Australia, which is the governing body for ex exercise physiologist. And I was like, oh, this is really interesting. And I contacted her afterwards and I was like, that was really helpful. I work with this population. And then we ended up doing a research project together and started the development of something that is now fully fledged called Safe Exercise at every stage, which is basically guidelines to help health professionals working with those struggling with eating disorders or in a process of recovery from an eating disorder, know what is a safe level for them to exercise at and how they can progress over time.
(00:10:46):
So that really kind of drew me into this space. And then from there I was like, well, I wonder if I just share my story what will happen. And that's why I started the podcast and that opened my eyes far beyond what I had ever imagined where you would get emails and messages saying, I struggle with the same thing, and hearing your story was so validating and so helpful, or I love the podcast that you do, they're so informative and they're so practical. And I was like, cool, this is not what I expected to do when I leave university, but also is the thing that gives me so much more passion rather than just teaching people how to do a squat, which is fine, I love that. But at the end of the day, I think I knew that I was like, it's more than just what kind of exercise are you doing or how much why are you exercising?
(00:11:53):
What do you think? What purpose is this serving in your life and is it for healthy intentions or is it because you don't feel good enough or you're nervous about what will happen if you don't exercise? And I found that side, the psychological side so much more interesting, which is why I was like, cool, well I'm going to do more professional development and become a coach. I'm looking into going back to university to formalise all of the qualifications around being more of a therapist, but that is a long road. So here we are helping people in the best way possible, which is through the podcast and through coaching. But yeah, that's kind of how I ended up being where I am today and I love it.
Brock Ashby (00:12:42):
So where do you start people with eating disorders when they are exercising? I do find that very fascinating because often you can't just say, alright, here's your programme and just start smashing it because that works for some people. But I think you have to be at a certain level or have a certain mindset or be at a certain place to just be able to focus on those things. Sometimes you can't just go straight there. And I'm not saying that it's ahead of anyone that is dealing with eating disorders. They're held back, but they often can't just jump straight into that. There's other things that they need to deal with, like you said, why are they training? What's it going to do for them? How are they approaching it? And if they do do it, is it great if they don't, what happens then? So I know people can kind of be at different levels of an eating disorder. Some people can be here, some people can be there, but what are those levels that you kind of created that programme exercising at every level? What kind of steps are there?
Sarah Liz King (00:13:41):
So it's really is going to be a very long answer.
Brock Ashby (00:13:47):
I'm ready,
Sarah Liz King (00:13:47):
But we'll break it down. So obviously eating disorders and disordered eating, like you said, there's no one type, there's no one. You couldn't look at a person and be like they're struggling with their relationship with food and exercise in their body. You can't know. Obviously we have multiple different behaviours and diagnoses and it doesn't really matter what the diagnosis is or whether people are formally diagnosed or they just know that they are spending way too much time energy and too much of their headspace is overly focused on their body and as a result of that, the way they eat and the way they move and all of those kinds of things. And you can also have people that relate to exercise in different ways. So obviously on one side of this spectrum there is complete over-reliance on exercise. So this kind of addictive mentality, which actually does exist, there's primary and secondary exercise addiction, and we often this secondary exercise addiction.
Brock Ashby (00:14:53):
And what's the difference between the two?
Sarah Liz King (00:14:55):
Sorry. So primary exercise addiction is basically that you over-reliance on exercise, but it's not related to any other mental health condition. Secondary exercise addiction is exercises used as a way to kind of cope mentally and usually coexist with another mental health condition like eating disorders, anxiety, depression, all of that kind of thing. We know it's addictive as well because there is this presence of basically withdrawal symptoms. So if you think of any kind of addiction, the initial intake of a certain amount gives us a certain outcome that often makes us feel better or gives us relief of some kind. But then if we don't do it, we feel this withdrawal and this urge to kind of go and seek it to get those positive outcomes. So that's one element of why we know it's addictive. And there's also a second element, which is you often need more and more and more of the substance or of the exercise to elicit the same result.
(00:16:03):
So initially you might've done a smaller amount of exercise and it made you feel amazing, but then over time that same amount doesn't give you the same effect. So you seek more or you need to have it more intense in order for it to kind of elicit that outcome that you are seeking. Now that can be inherently problematic, not just from a physical recovery point of view, but also it can overtake things like your social life, your work commitments, family, all of those kinds of things because your brain and body are kind of fixated on seeking that result and that outcome. So that is one side of things. And then on the other side of things, we have people that fall into complete exercise avoidance. Maybe they're ashamed of their body or maybe they've had really negative experiences where they just don't want to think about movement at all.
(00:17:00):
And people often sit in either camp when it comes to eating disorders and disordered eating and they can often kind of sit in between that as well. And the whole point of this experience of coaching and kind of helping people develop a healthy relationship with food is to help either side of that spectrum meet in the middle ground and go, exercise should be part of your life because it does have really positive health benefits and there are probably things that you inherently want to do in your life that require movement and that movement feels easier if we have it in a structured enjoyable way where there's rest involved and you're kind of doing it in a really smart way and your intentions behind it are helpful and positive instead of detrimental. So there's no elements of trying to punish yourself or it's from a place of guilt or shame or those kinds of things.
(00:17:54):
So helping people from either side of the spectrum get to the messy middle ground is a messy process oftentimes for people that over-reliance on exercise, really challenging them to kind of change things up, do things a little bit differently, whether that be reducing down or changing up the kinds of exercise that they're doing. And the whole point of this isn't to tell them that exercise is bad and that they should never do it again, but it's to really adjust the unrealistic expectations that they might have about how much they should be doing and to also provide some of the tools that they can support themselves with during that process because exercise has served a purpose for them. They didn't just magically wake up one day and we're like, well, I'm going to exercise for five plus hours because that's amazing. There was some reason why that developed into their lives.
(00:18:49):
And so we have to kind of go, okay, well if we are changing that element, we don't want to leave you with absolutely no coping strategies. We want to make sure that when you start to change up your exercise and you are feeling a little bit anxious, a little bit overwhelmed, that you have other ways to deal with that that aren't going to the gym or going for a run or something else related to movement. Then on the flip side of things, if you've been at a stage where you've completely avoided a moving your body, maybe you've really just associated, so you're kind of numbed out from your physical being, you're like, I don't want to think about my body, I don't want to think about movement. It's super uncomfortable. I hate the whole, maybe they actually hate the whole weight loss rhetoric or I don't want to really exercise to change my body.
(00:19:37):
I just want to go to the gym and I want to feel like I can be there and it's a safe space, but I don't feel like that right now. And you're like, great. So for them it's that slow exposure to what movement can be and how it can be really enjoyable and really positive. And oftentimes both sides of the spectrum have this really intense critical voice. I should, I have to. And that can be so hard to break away from, which is why the antidote that helps us get to that messy middle ground is self-compassion, that we try our best, we try different things and throughout that process of exposing yourself to movement that you might've avoided before or kind of slowing down and changing what you might've done that was too much from before, that critical voice gets strong and it tells you that you're doing the wrong thing, but probably your values sit somewhere in, I want a life where there's movement and it's fun and it's enjoyable and it makes me feel good and it benefits my health, but I don't want the voice inside my head to be screaming at me telling me that I should or I must do more or I'm a bad person if I missed my workout or didn't push as strong as I did before.
(00:20:55):
And that's where we have to really challenge those critical voices and go, okay, there's a different way you can actually speak to yourself with kindness. If a workout didn't go perfectly the way that you wanted to, you can regroup and realise you're going to be moving exercise, working out, doing something like that throughout your entire life, it's not going to matter in five years time whether you didn't do all 10 exercises in your programme because you were absolutely exhausted, so you did four and you left the gym, it's not going to matter. But helping people zoom out and recognise that is often life-changing for them and is what helps people adopt those long-term helpful habits that we know won't lead to them. Kind of like yo-yoing through periods of eight week fitness challenges and then dropping off the face of the earth because we don't want that.
Brock Ashby (00:21:52):
Yeah, I personally fell into one of those traps. So initially when I was younger, when I first started, I had no idea about calories, nutrition training, frequency or anything. I was just 14 years old rugby guy from Christchurch, New Zealand. So I went to a high school where heaps of all blacks came out of, so it was like,
(00:22:14):
Let's do it. So I just used to lift really heavy weights and I really enjoyed it. And then I got to this point where I couldn't not train twice a day, and then I got to a point where I couldn't not eat the exact amount of calories and macros that I set, and I was just getting more and more upset. It started fun, I was playing sport, and I think sport was a good way of actually giving it some purpose. It was performance-based workouts. But then I stopped doing that and I was just personal training and I told you before I was singing and stuff, and that's even more superficial, so I was like, okay, I need to look like this. So I got really obsessed with having to train twice a day, eating a certain amount of calories, being a certain size and ticking this off. But I learned the hard way in terms of exercise, how to pull that back by getting injured.
(00:23:02):
So I did exactly what you said, and this is why I thought of it. I had this programme that I wrote myself and it was 12 workouts a week, so twice a day, Monday to Friday, once on the weekends, and I would do a big session in the morning and then in the afternoon I would do a smaller one, arms or abs or whatever, but I had to do two because it was like this mindset thing. I had to do two, my friend was doing two as well, so I was like, I'm doing two as well, sorry, let me finish. And then I had a leg day and I had five sets of squats. I did four and I was like, I couldn't leave the gym. It was eight o'clock, eight or 9:00 PM I'd just been personal training from 6:00 AM till eight o'clock, some breaks in between, but it was a big day, about 10 to 12 sessions, and I was exhausted.
(00:23:51):
I was undersleep and I was like, I have to do this extra set of squats before I leave to tick that box and say that I finished my programme for the day. I went in, I warmed up and I was squatting one 20, which wasn't quite heavy for me at the time. And then I couldn't stand up after the squat. I had to, if I took a bigger step, like a normal step, it would hurt my lower back. So I had to take little penguin steps and just kind waddle all the way down to the bottom of the gym. And then I caught an Uber home and I had to lie in the back. I couldn't set up, it was really bad. And then the next day I couldn't stand up, ambulance came to my house, all this type of thing. So I learned the hard way and then from then I was like, maybe I'm over training and under sleeping and not eating enough and all this kind of stuff, but I'd love to know how you've fast tracked people. Not that there's a shortcut to this or there's a quick fix, but I think there's definitely better ways than slipping a disc.
Sarah Liz King (00:24:47):
There is a lot of better ways. And look, I'm curious to know before I obviously dive into a little bit of, I guess, fast tracking that process when you're in that phase of your life and you are so hyper-focused on I'm doing this because obviously I think a lot of people that are really high achievers when they're like, if I want something, I'm just going to go for it. And that pursuit of something can be so strong. Was there ever a point where you were like, I'm actually not feeling great.
Brock Ashby (00:25:25):
I would quiet those thoughts with I just have to do it. So just like you were saying, I was hyper focused on doing things and I would make myself such an unrealistic schedule, but I would stick to it because it was determination, it was discipline, it was all that kind of self-help motivation stuff, which I thrived on. I was like, yeah,
Sarah Liz King (00:25:44):
All the toxic fitness slogans,
Brock Ashby (00:25:47):
I was like, let's go. I was just doing it, but I would wake up. I had really bad habits. Looking back at it now, it was absolutely horrific and I'm grateful for online coaching because it's allowed me to pull my life back into a realistic place that I can actually last a lifetime. I look at what I was doing. I was sleeping four to six hours. I was all about the grind. I'd drink a whole plunger of coffee in the morning when I woke up straight away. I would let it brew overnight and wake up at 4 45, slam the whole thing, which is terrible, and then walk into the gym and then start training clients, train twice a day and do all this kind of stuff. So there were definitely days where I didn't feel good and my clients didn't even say, you look really tired. And I'd get
Sarah Liz King (00:26:29):
Offended, that's a red flag.
Brock Ashby (00:26:32):
Your client that you're trying to help is saying You don't look too good today. I
Sarah Liz King (00:26:36):
Was like, you're meant to be the beacon of health. You look like you should take a nap.
Brock Ashby (00:26:40):
But most personal trainers fall into that category. Yeah, they do because the way that you earn money is by being on the gym floor and training people. And unfortunately you just have to do that for a long time. Then you've reached this point where you're full and then you're confused what to do. Do I take on other coaches to bring
Sarah Liz King (00:26:56):
More cashflow in?
Brock Ashby (00:26:57):
Yeah, cashflow. Do I go online, do I charge more or do I just work more hours? Which is what we often did as personal trainers. It was cool for me to work to say that I worked from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM Monday to Friday. I was like, I feel good. It feels like I was doing things, but I definitely didn't feel good every day. No,
Sarah Liz King (00:27:17):
And I would say prior to you getting that injury, one of the phrases that I really love to tell people, because often I have people that come and they're like, I have this massive injury now that has been the absolute eyeopener for me that I have to change something because my body is telling me things are bad. So this phrase is, your body always whispers before it yells at you. There's usually clues that lead up to you hurting your back feeling really exhausted, working really long hours, not getting enough sleep, all of those kinds of things where training really intensely, not having those periods of time where you actually rest, recharge, let your body get maximal benefits from the work that you just put it through. All we see is what we see on social media now, people doing really heavy lifts and being really dedicated in the gym, but there is a fine line between dedicated and disordered and we can't see it from the outside.
(00:28:23):
It's something that is inherently within us and only we know that, right? Only we can feel that exhaustion at the end of the day. Only we can feel that kind of lacklustre mentality when our next training session comes up. Those are the clues that you would get, but you have to ask really deep and meaningful questions to people about it. So how do you fast track someone and help them avoid an injury and falling into this kind of spiral that I fell into as well? And the thing is often we can't really pull people out of the river before they fall in sometimes as much as you want to help someone, it's only until they want to make the change that they can actually start making it because it's all very well and good for you to be like, but don't you see what you're doing to yourself isn't actually helping you reach your goals or become healthier If a person is like you so focused, they've got their blinders on, they're not going to listen.
Brock Ashby (00:29:29):
I would never have listened at that time. No.
Sarah Liz King (00:29:31):
It's really unfortunate that we have to sometimes get to that rock bottom place in order to pick ourselves back up. And what I would say for anyone out there, listen to those little whispers that your body is telling you. It is innately so wise when it's telling you, Hey, I'm tired. That's not just for fun. Really full body fatigue is your body saying rest war. You are overreaching. You are pushing through and past what your body's available resources are. And there are a lot of people that are like, but I felt the best I've ever felt and I'm performing the best I've ever felt. And they might actually still be in that state of overreaching or over training and under fueling. And to that, I say, sure, but for how long? Because there will always be a point where something happens, whether that be they physically get injured, they mentally burn out, their performance actually takes a step back.
(00:30:36):
We're in this for the long run. Even if you're an athlete, right? As an athlete, your body is your tool and pushing it to the nth degree isn't what is going to get you the best outcome. Also isn't going to sustain you if you want to be within your chosen sport for a relatively long period of time. So there is no fast track as the long and the short answer. It really is about going, okay, sometimes a person has to get to their rock bottom in order to open their eyes and go, oh my God, this is actually worse than I thought and I really need to change. And so many people sit in that kind of low energy availability over training state without even knowing it because it's what society normalises.
Brock Ashby (00:31:27):
Yeah, well that's what I was about to say. I was going to say it also depends on your environment because when you're surrounded by personal trainers, that's glorified
Sarah Liz King (00:31:34):
So much.
Brock Ashby (00:31:35):
So you're training hard, you're working hard, you're eating clean personal trainers, and this is just from me sitting in the personal trainer room. When you are not with clients, you come in and you be like, man, he's training really hard. He's doing. And people say, man, you're looking really good supporting that fact. So then you're like, oh, well I better keep doing this to keep it up. But I had those whispers in my head for sure. And physically it was kind of a joke around me and my friends. My lower back was always sore, and that was what eventually gave way. But it was like a joke. People would be like, oh, what are you training today? And I'd be like this, I'd see if my lower back was sore, I'd bend over and kind of flex my spine and be like, I'm going to do arms, because I was so beat up and I was so sore. And that was literally the whispers to my body saying, Hey, or from my body to me saying, Hey mate, I think you should rest. Because on the weekends I used to sleep. I remember sleeping like 12 to 13 hours, but just because I was so smashed.
Sarah Liz King (00:32:32):
Yeah, well you've created this massive energy debt throughout the entire week and your body's like, okay, well if you're not going to listen to me Monday to Friday, I will force you to listen to me on Saturday and Sunday. And I think that's what we want to avoid. And you're a hundred percent right when you're in that environment, it can be incredibly toxic and it's also really hard to go against the status quo. I think lots of different industries have positive and negative aspects to them. I think the most unhelpful one in the personal training world is that your body is your business card, which is the furthest thing from the truth.
Brock Ashby (00:33:18):
But that's also quite challenging for people. And I understand this now, but it's quite challenging for personal trainers when clients say, I want to look like you and that's how you got business. Then you go, oh, it kind of is.
Sarah Liz King (00:33:33):
I think that is one of the biggest assumptions though, because you could give three of your clients the exact same nutrition plan and food plan, sorry, the nutrition food plan and exercise plan that you did, and all three of them would have different outcomes. We have so much that is genetically set and so many other factors that influence us, but we've been told that, oh, it's just calories in versus calories out, hard work. And while those equations are true, the hundreds of factors that affect calories in are also present and the hundreds of aspects that affect calories out are also present. So while it's a simple equation, it's actually not that simple.
Brock Ashby (00:34:20):
Very complicated. Yeah, I get slammed a bit because I'm very calories in versus calories out too, but I understand that they're dynamic. It's not just a equation that you put in like, oh, I ate 2,500, I burnt 2,700. My deficit is 200, I lose weight. It's not like
Sarah Liz King (00:34:37):
That. And our bodies also aren't robots.
Brock Ashby (00:34:39):
Yeah, exactly. And for example, when people use my calorie calculator, they're like, oh, this didn't work or it was too much or it was too little. It's just the best guess. That's the kind of, there's no perfect. You just eat that and you will get shredded and look huge. If you do that in 1500 calories, that might be true because you're not eating enough. But yeah, we're not perfect. We
Sarah Liz King (00:35:03):
Also have to think about, yes, food can be an avenue for us to reach our goals in all aspects, whether that is that you want to change your body composition or you're looking to recover from an eating disorder or restore your periods, there is that science behind the fact that your body will need a different amount of energy to achieve different goals that you have for yourself. But I think within the pursuit of those goals, it's also incredibly important that we think about food and other aspects that food is also enjoyment. It's
Brock Ashby (00:35:38):
Emotional.
Sarah Liz King (00:35:39):
Yeah, it's emotional. We use it to celebrate. It's around when we're sad and none of that is inherently bad. And I think sometimes what can happen is people get so obsessed with the numbers that they forget that they're actually still meant to live their life and enjoy being social and going out and not having perfect meals because actually that serves a purpose too. That should be part of what you value in life. And if it's become disconnected because you're so worried about what will happen if you don't eat in a particular way, then that is definitely a red flag that it's okay to have flexibility and inclusion as you move towards whatever goal you have for yourself.
Brock Ashby (00:36:27):
So on that, you're talking about goals, but previously you kind of mentioned that you coach people without specific outcomes as well or maybe potentially trying to pull them away from certain people because they aren't the healthiest. If you aren't someone without, sorry, if you aren't coaching someone with an outcome, what are you coaching towards? Because I feel like there always has to kind of be some goal of mine, not that it has to be a specific body fat or be a specific size or feel awesome when you eat. I'm just genuinely curious because as a coach, as a personal trainer, body transformation coach, there's always a goal. It's mainly physique based. And there's other stuff that we talk about along the way, especially with the personalised coaching, we dive into deep things that happen in their life and things that we need to go through the kind of nuances that we're talking about today. But what do you work on or work towards then if there's no specific outcome?
Sarah Liz King (00:37:25):
So I think there's a lot of nuance in goal setting, and we definitely still prioritise those goals. But if someone, for example is saying to us, I want a better relationship with food in my body, cool. That's a great goal to have and that is the outcome. The next step is kind of going, well, we have no idea how long that's going to take to get there, but it's something that we definitely want for you and it's definitely something that we're willing, qualified to work with you on. Why is that important to you? That's the next step. Why do I want this? From there, you can really identify what people's values are. They're like, I want to be more connected with the people that I love. And I know that my relationship with food is preventing me from engaging in dinners out and saying yes to the morning teas that I brought in to the office and my body image is preventing me from going on holiday or playing with my kids or something like that.
(00:38:32):
So that kind of element of connection, okay, it's important to you because you value being there with the people that you love. It gives you an element of freedom that you feel like you don't have right now, and you can live to those values every day while also still working towards that outcome goal, which then comes up with these process goals. So what are the daily habits that you're focusing on, which over time will then lead to the outcome that you want? So I think there's always a road that we're all walking down towards some finish line. I think the interesting thing is once you reach the finish line, what do you do then? And I think particularly within my work, the kinds of habits that we're getting people to build, there actually is no end. The things that you are doing to help you get to what you perceive as the end goal are actually the things that you have to sustain throughout your entire life to keep feeling relaxed and free and connected to the people that you love to have better body image, all those things.
(00:39:41):
But I think when someone's in pain and they just want to fix it is helpful to set a goal because we know what road we're walking down together. But it really comes down to the fact that the road is hard and there will be many obstacles along the way for that person. So we have to really understand what value is it that really lies underneath that goal? Why is it important to them? Because they're going to want to give up. And it's a lot of practise. Those process goals are probably more important than the outcome goals. Those daily habits, those daily routines and new behaviours that you're helping people wire into their brain through repetition, those are actually the most important things to work on because yes, eventually they'll help that person reach their goal, but actually they'll help a person stay with that goal throughout their entire lives.
Brock Ashby (00:40:40):
And what are some of those things that you encourage people to adopt the habits that help them have a good relationship with food?
Sarah Liz King (00:40:47):
So I think one of the biggest things is removing the morality that we have around food. So seeing food as good versus bad. From the moment we were born, we never saw chocolate and apples is different. That doesn't mean to say that they are not nutritionally different, they are. But labelling one as good versus another one as bad means that when we eat those foods, we often give ourselves those same labels. And that can be problematic because then we start to feel guilt and shame and disappointment when we eat the bad food. So seeing all foods as equal and that they can all fit within your diet, which just means the way that you eat is the biggest first step. I think with exercise, if someone wants to really have a healthy relationship with exercise, I think the element of rest often gets overlooked.
Brock Ashby (00:41:49):
It's kind of seen as soft, oh, you're resting, don't be a,
Sarah Liz King (00:41:54):
Yeah. But obviously I studied exercise physiology, telling someone, this is the reason why we rest not just between days and sessions, but within a session is to actually help you facilitate the best adaptation. If we don't do that, you're going to get half the results that you could have gotten a hundred percent of the results from. So not overlooking rest is a really helpful thing.
Brock Ashby (00:42:25):
Sorry to jump in. Even recently, I have a female client based in the states and she actually won. So I do a eight week challenge. And the goal, sorry, the prize was she got to work with me as a one-to-one coach. So out of the challenge where I just write certain programmes for people, nutrition for certain groups of people, and then they have, so I do try to encourage the sustainable habits as well, not just the eight week get shredder and then see you. So there's over six hours of educational videos that they get access to so they can understand heaps of different things, metabolic adaptations, neat levels, calories in la, la, la, la. So I try not to just spit them out because as you referred to, that's what a lot of eight week challenges are just like, yep, I take your money, you lose weight, and then you regain it later when you are not a client to mine. So it's not my fault. So I try and encourage that sustainability of habits. But anyway, so she won and the prize was to work with me. I wrote her a programme and she was like, I want to get stronger. I want to get better at chin-ups.
Sarah Liz King (00:43:35):
Yeah, I love that goal, by the way.
Brock Ashby (00:43:37):
Yeah, it's such a good
Sarah Liz King (00:43:37):
Goal. So many people come to me are like, I just want to do a chin up. I don't know. What is it about everyone's like, this is the ultimate marker of strength.
Brock Ashby (00:43:45):
It just feels good. It does. I think there's something, I dunno, it feels quite primal. I dunno. Pulling yourself up over a ledge
Sarah Liz King (00:43:52):
Or something. And I think especially for women who inherently we are not as strong in our upper body, we're like, yeah, if I can ace that, I've just ticked this massive box.
Brock Ashby (00:44:02):
It's such an achievement. And she wanted to get stronger at that. So I wrote her a programme and she was getting down to six reps, four reps, two reps, really trying to encourage that kind of short rep range for strength. And then she had these rest periods that were long, two and a half, three minutes, and I was like, oh, how's it going? She's like, oh yeah. So what have we doing? Because she's a busy mom, short on time. She's like, I've been putting them all into a circuit. And then
Brock Ashby (00:44:30):
So just don't pull up squats, dumbbell overhead, press lunges, and then taking a minute rest and then just going again, just and
Sarah Liz King (00:44:38):
Look, we laugh, but that's because we're laughing with you. We know how much people want these goals and sometimes they don't even realise sometimes the practise of them pursuing it can actually sabotage what they want.
Brock Ashby (00:44:53):
And she's like, I just want to get it done because then I have time for my kids and stuff like that. Well, I was like, well, you got to tell me because then I can make the programme shorter, but you need to recover this energy system with more rest. And I think people just don't understand it and they just want to hop around the gym because if they're sweating, they feel more productive. But often when you want to get stronger, which is a big goal for a lot of people, I want to be strong that's not doing a big circuit and then just keep doing that five times and then you leave and you're sweaty and all that kind of stuff. You're never going to overload those weights because you don't have enough time to rest and actually be strong.
Sarah Liz King (00:45:30):
And I think sometimes the best strength programmes that actually get you the best results are usually really boring.
Brock Ashby (00:45:36):
So
Sarah Liz King (00:45:37):
Boring, so boring. They require so much rest and so much patience and so much consistency and having that real long-term vision that yeah, you'll get that, but if you don't give, like you said, those energy systems, the time to rest, you're not going to get the outcome that you want. Any workout can make you tired. Any workout can make you sweat. Not every single workout is going to be programmed in a way that will actually get you meaningful outcomes,
Brock Ashby (00:46:09):
But it's that lack of knowledge that people don't actually know that that's what it takes. And this takes me back to social media, which is what we're talking about before that we actually started recording was people want to hear it, but then they don't want to hear it at the same time because we're having this nuanced conversation, which is going to explain rest. And so people can understand, but people are like, oh, I see that person is strong and I just want to do that, so I'm just going to keep doing heaps of that. And there's no talk of rest, there's no talk of programming, no talk that getting a chin up might be a 12 month goal. It's not going to happen in four weeks, unfortunately for most people. No,
Sarah Liz King (00:46:44):
And I love that you say that it normally is a 12 month goal.
Brock Ashby (00:46:46):
Yeah, it takes time. I've coached a lot of people through this stuff and all over the world, all different types of skill levels, even advanced people trying to get weighted. It is kind of the same goal, ultimately a strength-based goal, but it takes so much time and takes so much. I saw a quote the other day that's really good is strength is a skill. It's something that's learned, it's something that's practised, something that's rested for so that you feel good to do it. It's not something that's just like, oh, I'm strong now. It's like you have to learn that you have to sit in those risk periods like, man, I feel like I should be moving, but I've got two minutes left.
Sarah Liz King (00:47:23):
And we often see clients who might have had a very warped relationship with exercise previously. And our online training programme is called Better Balance Training. And the reason that we gave her that name is we're going to have a better balance of things, work and rest. We're going to tell you exactly why we're programming your week the way that we are. And just because you can and have been doing X number of runs a week combined with X number of strength sessions, if you tell us that your goals are this, it means that you and I are the professionals and we actually are not doing things to kind of
Brock Ashby (00:48:06):
Slow you down,
Sarah Liz King (00:48:07):
Slow you down, or sabotage your goals. We're actually sometimes doing what you should have been doing all along, which is taking smaller, more progressive steps, which will help you avoid injury, help you avoid illness, help you avoid burning out. You might actually enjoy the process along the way, which is what you should be doing as well.
Brock Ashby (00:48:30):
It's so crazy that they often question your programming too because
Sarah Liz King (00:48:35):
Yeah, because you're not a professionalism, did you really study
Brock Ashby (00:48:39):
This? But you're like, okay, you've literally paying me to do this and then you're questioning it and I get it. They could just have their things that they believe. But I think what I said before, there's this knowledge gap of what people want to achieve and what to actually do to get there. And that's why people fall for doing those crazy workouts where they're sweating and it's often, it's not always, but it's quite often females that have this kind of mindset of, I just need to run around and I just need to do heaps in a short amount of time and get out. And that can often be because they don't feel comfortable in a gym sometimes. And there's a lot of people that have gym anxiety and stuff like that, and they don't want to be there, so they just want to do heaps and then get out because it's like, oh, I survived, I made it.
(00:49:24):
But often there's all this and there's other things in their head that could just be like, rest isn't needed. I just need to push hard. That whole mindset, there's so many factors, but I think it's a big problem. People, and people spend so much time in the gym, they literally dedicate somewhere between, I don't know, four to seven hours potentially right in the gym, or even if it's three hours, that's a lot of time in your life, so much. And you want to make the most of that. And they're so fixated and they follow people on Instagram to get motivation and workouts and all this kind of stuff, and then they just go to the gym and do all these wrong things. It just blows my mind. But I was in this position as well, so I'm not saying that I'm bitter than these people. I did that for years. Actually, my whole high school since I was 14 to 18 was probably that.
Sarah Liz King (00:50:11):
And look, I did the same. I think we have to learn some ways because you dunno what you dunno. And until you reach a point where you're actually like, oh, now my education has increased, now I'm wiser. The question is, am I actually going to implement this or am I going to stay ignorant? Because there is that. And I definitely did that. I started to learn things, but I was like, nah, it feels better to do more. So it took me a while to kind of get to that point. And now I explain to people that we always start with the minimum effective dose. Just because you can do more doesn't mean that you necessarily should. And we're always testing and retesting things for your body to tell us where it's at because you're not going to wake up and feel the exact same every single day.
(00:51:01):
Specifically females specifically, if you have a menstrual cycle that affects your energy levels throughout the month, that affects how strong you feel throughout the month. All of those kinds of things have to be factored in. So sure you can go and do more and social media is the place where you will hands down, get that kind of messaging that you need to push as hard as you can every set. And I think it also paints this picture, and social media is super aspirational. It presents this ideal of if you have this kind of life, which is often the kind of life that the person selling the programme lives, then your life will look like that. You'll be inherently more happy, inherently more likeable, all of these things, which is just, it's hugely false because even those people that look like they have the most glamorous life, they still have to take out the trash. There are still days that they probably cry and feel crappy about themselves. They still probably have worries around finances and all of these things that a normal human being experiences, but we're placing them on a pedestal because society has gone. That is the image of success or that is the image of health and fitness, which I think is a really tricky trap that we fall into because we can't tell much about a person's life purely by the way that they look
Brock Ashby (00:52:38):
Or by what they post
Sarah Liz King (00:52:39):
Or by what they post. It's 1% of their life choose exactly, choose, I should say.
Brock Ashby (00:52:44):
So with training throughout the menstrual cycle, obviously people vary. Some people feel no difference and just train the same. Some people are heavily impacted. There's some people that I work with where we programme maintenance phases of nutrition because the hunger cravings are crazy, and they're like, I'm not. If their goal is weight loss, let's say we're like, for every week that this happens, we're going to maintenance and we're just hanging out. So there's people that have different needs throughout their menstrual cycle. Do you have any basic protocols that you encourage people or do you have any advice for people? Because it is tricky and often people just like, ah, they don't understand that every week, every third week of their menstrual cycle or something week, they feel weak because they don't track it. I know that tracking, it's very important. So yeah. Do you have any advice or basic protocols that people could, so
Sarah Liz King (00:53:45):
Much advice
Brock Ashby (00:53:45):
Could try?
Sarah Liz King (00:53:46):
So much advice. So the first thing is what we know research wise around exercise in the menstrual cycle is still in its infancy. So a lot of times when you see on social media, people promote, train to your cycle and all of this kind of stuff, know that a lot of what they say isn't what we would say evidence-based, yet it's like our best guess from the limited amount of research that we do have.
Brock Ashby (00:54:18):
Because often in research they avoid using females
Sarah Liz King (00:54:22):
Because of their instal cycle cause they're the anomaly.
Brock Ashby (00:54:23):
So they use men because, well, every day we're pretty much
Sarah Liz King (00:54:26):
The same. Every day is the same 24 hours your hormones reset to be a man. Yeah. So obviously the menstrual cycle goes anywhere from 28 to 35 days. There's two main parts of your cycle. So the first part of your cycle is called the follicular phase. So that is from day one of your period. So when you first start your period up until when you ovulate around day 14, if we're talking about roughly a 28 day cycle, and then after ovulation, you hit something called the luteal phase. Now the luteal phase is after ovulation to when you start your next menstrual period during your follicular phase, obviously we've got the hormones, oestrogen being the predominant hormone and a tiny little bit of progesterone and oestrogen is really helpful for protein synthesis. So obviously when you start your period, your hormones are at their lowest. So physiologically we're most like men at that stage, but some people feel terrible on their periods and they experience a lot of pain and a lot of discomfort.
(00:55:35):
And if that is you listen to your body, sometimes movement can actually be really, really beneficial to helping with the cramps and helping with a bit of the discomfort. But you really need to be guided by how you feel. So that is my number one piece of advice. Be guided by how you feel as your number one. The second thing is to be aware that sometimes little things can change that you might not even kind of clue into being related to your hormones. So we know for instance, that around ovulation people are typically their strongest, but they can also be more uncoordinated, not a good combo. So there's one study that's associated an increased risk of ACL injuries for women around that ovulatory period. But again, it's done on a small group of people. So can we draw the best evidence from that? No, but it's an interesting thing to kind of highlight.
(00:56:37):
And then in your luteal phase, you've got higher progesterone levels. Progesterone's. The hormone that we love to hate is the one that makes us feel hungrier, a little bit moodier. It can lead to things like breast tenderness, bloating, and water retention, and those are all the kinds of things that people find really uncomfortable. You're also typically not as strong during that phase, but you don't need to train to your cycle in the fact that you need to do five different types of exercise across your menstrual cycle. If you have a strength training programme, you just keep strength training. But anything you just adapt to how you're feeling on the day, which I think we in particular use an RPE scale, because what might feel like an eight out of ten one day might a specific weight, but on another day it might be a different weight. And if that's still your eight out of 10, that is still your eight out of 10. So you can change as you go. I think also really giving yourself those deload weeks to decompress is really beneficial, whether you're a male or a female, that is the time because obviously exercise is a form of stress, is a positive form of stress, but it's still stress. Some
Brock Ashby (00:57:55):
People forget that it's actually stressful on the body.
Sarah Liz King (00:57:57):
Yeah, super stressful. So you can try and time those deload weeks into your cycle to just have a lighter week for when you're not feeling as strong. And that can be that maintenance week in terms of training. And it will also help deload your nervous system. Now your nervous system is kind of like what tells us whether you're in fight or flight or in rest and digest. And if you already have a really stressful life and then you're kind of forcing yourself through your workouts when you're not feeling your best when you could be deloading, pulling back, maintaining, you're probably not helping yourself in the overall picture of things. So yeah, my main takeaway for any female who's got their natural menstrual cycle, number one, track it. Number two, don't just track when you're getting your period track also how you are feeling with your workouts.
(00:58:56):
Think about what else is going on in your life, what other forms of stress you're having, how well you're sleeping, how sore you are, all of those kinds of things. We do a little readiness for exercise questionnaire with all of our clients before they train and they have to hit above three out of five before we consider they're ready for training. If they're at a two, we go like today's a rest day. You can kind of reschedule that into a different day because we want to teach people that you need to be flexible and listen to your body so that you can approach each session feeling your best, which is when you're going to get the most out of it.
Brock Ashby (00:59:34):
And on the other side of the menstrual cycle, when you aren't having a regular menstrual cycle, do you have any other basic protocols that you can recommend for that? Because obviously it's a very complex situation. It's not just like, oh, you just need a train lesson, it's going to come back. Yeah, that's
Sarah Liz King (00:59:54):
Part of it.
Brock Ashby (00:59:55):
Yeah, that can help. But if you said that to someone, that's not going to be super helpful. Just train less. Okay, thanks.
Sarah Liz King (01:00:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:00:03):
Is there any more specific details you could give or maybe examples you've had with people?
Sarah Liz King (01:00:07):
Yeah, definitely. So I'm going to talk about missing periods from the context of hypothalamic amenorrhea, which is a form of secondary amenorrhea. So you've had a period at some point in your life and then it goes missing. HA is pretty common, lesser known than another condition called PCOS. And people definitely get diagnosed as having PCOS and misdiagnosed as having PCOS because both of them have that characteristic of polycystic ovaries. Both of them have the characteristic of an irregular or absent menstrual cycle, but,
Brock Ashby (01:00:41):
And if you have two of the three, then you are considered to have PCOS.
Sarah Liz King (01:00:44):
Yeah. Which is wild when actually it
Brock Ashby (01:00:47):
Could be. So how come that isn't very popular knowledge?
Sarah Liz King (01:00:52):
So PCOS affects a larger percentage of the population. And I think what is really quite difficult to understand is with the criteria, the Rotterdam criteria for PCOS, the reason that the polycystic ovaries are there is driven from a different kind of hormone reason compared to ha. So PCOS is driven because of predominantly insulin resistance, which causes the ovaries to kind of malfunction and it causes androgens to be overproduced and that can lead to an ovulation. And when we're not ovulating, then we have lots of underdeveloped follicles in our ovaries, which look polycystic in appearance. So the not ovulating and not having a period is what is causing the polycystic ovaries. Obviously in ha, you're having the same thing happen. You're not ovulating, you're not having periods. You have these appearance of multiple underdeveloped follicles which can be seen on an ultrasound, but the reason why that's happening for you is completely different to PCOS. The reason why that's happening for you is mostly due to lifestyle factors that you're a person regardless of your body, weight, shape, or size does a really high or intense level of exercise or maybe intentionally or unintentionally is under fueling themselves. We see athletes who are like, I just didn't know that I need, I just didn't know. I just wasn't
Brock Ashby (01:02:32):
Hungry.
Sarah Liz King (01:02:33):
Because obviously if you're training really hard, that can blunt your appetite, so can oestrogen. Interestingly, the presence of oestrogen can blunt your appetite. So even when a female has a natural menstrual cycle, we have to be like, you might not always be the hungriest at this phase of your cycle, but don't use that as a gauge for eating. So yeah, you might be a person that is under fueling or over-training or you're just super stressed. Obviously there is a link to some genetic factors, body weight, body fat percentage, all of those things. But it is really hard to get a diagnosis, A diagnosis of exclusion. Basically we have to factor out any really other bad reasons why your period might have been missing. And because people more know about PCOS, they'll just be like, oh, you have PCOS. Right? And then that's bad because how do we treat PCOS? We eat differently in a modified way and we promote exercise, which is great if people actually have PCOS, but if they have, it's the exact opposite to what they
Brock Ashby (01:03:37):
Need. You don't want 'em exercising
Sarah Liz King (01:03:38):
More? No, no, no, no, no, no. So we're going to talk about and what you would do exercise wise if you didn't have a regular menstrual cycle. So you can still have and have what we call menstrual disturbances. So your periods might be really, really irregular or really light and so you still might sit in that kind of category. The first thing is that we really need to cut out high intensity exercise and can you
Brock Ashby (01:04:10):
Give examples of what high intensity exercise
Sarah Liz King (01:04:12):
Is? Yeah, so high intensity exercise would be progressive overload, strength training, so really intense strength training. So we would modify, we would need to modify your workouts to kind of hit a maintenance phase and not stay in a build phase. Anything that raises your heart rate quite high as you think of running spin classes, F 45, you beat me to it.
Brock Ashby (01:04:42):
I was going to say
Sarah Liz King (01:04:43):
It. F 45 keeps me in business unfortunately and physios, no physios don't, but any very strong challenges that have a very low calorie association with them, I can tell you hands down my healing courses have medi and F 45 participant in them. So we're very supportive of that community, not in a helpful way, but we pick up from where F 45 left off. So anything that's getting your heart rate really, really high or is kind of pushing you towards that eight out of 10 kind of feeling. Like if I'm in the gym and I was to think about the last rep on my set, how many additional reps could I potentially do? If it's like, oh, I could maybe do one with good form or maybe do two, then you're probably training too heavy.
Brock Ashby (01:05:41):
So you're talking about reps and reserve
Sarah Liz King (01:05:43):
There, reps and reserve RPE reps and reserve kind of similar things. Yeah, I
Brock Ashby (01:05:47):
Like to almost look at them as the same too. They
Sarah Liz King (01:05:49):
Kind of
Brock Ashby (01:05:50):
Are just the intensity gauge,
Sarah Liz King (01:05:51):
A good intensity gauge. So cutting out high intensity exercise, really helpful. And again, there is an evidence-based reason for why we say that because high intensity exercise does elicit a higher production of a stress hormone called cortisol. And when cortisol is floating around, it has an impact on the part of our brain called the hypothalamus, which is involved in the production of other hormones and is involved in sensing how much energy is around and when there's an abundance of that, there is a downregulation of the production of sex hormones and other things. So when you're in an under fueled overtrained state, your cortisol levels are already too high. So we don't really want to add more fuel to the fire in that sense. So we know that high intensity exercise elicits the highest cortisol response. So we really want to tailor things back to a more low to moderate intensity kind of exercise for a short period of time, just while we're working on obviously regaining that menstrual cycle back. The second one is you have to eat more, probably a whole lot more than you've ever eaten before. And I feel like females have a really warped perception of what is enough food or too much food.
(01:07:16):
And it's really sad because obviously if we're looking at movement and exercise as a way of improving our performance, your body's not going to perform the way that you want it to if you're not giving it the food that it needs to function. And we're talking about people that have often tried to get their body to perform, doing really difficult things, still trying to get those pull-ups and hit those PBS on deadlifts and squats in a very under fueled state and get really frustrated. They're kind of spinning their wheels, they're not really getting anywhere and your body is not doing it just for fun, it's doing it because you're literally not giving it the building blocks for it to perform. So with that kind of food side of things, we need to put people towards what we say is optimal energy availability. Now that is something that sports dietitians usually specialise in because when you're working with athletes, we know that energy availability is and hitting this specific energy availability allows for optimal adaptations to the training load as well as supporting the body's physiological functions. So in a numerical point of view, it's 45 calories per kilo of fat free mass. That's what we're moving towards. And obviously that equation will help give you a specific calorie amount for that person giving how much movement they're doing versus how much they're taking in.
Brock Ashby (01:08:51):
So do you start there and adjust or is there other specific
Sarah Liz King (01:08:54):
Formulas? Yeah, that's the basic formula that we're working with. Obviously we don't tell our clients what that number is. We have that number in our heads. We want them to get out of feeling bad if they go over that maybe calorie ceiling in their heads. So we kind of look at this rule of threes as a really good starting point. So three meals, three snacks roughly every three hours as a minimum starting point, making sure that you're having all different components of food within that meal so you're not just having chicken and broccoli, it's not going to do anything for you. So we need to ensure especially that there is sufficient carbohydrates within each of those meals and throughout the day we're kind of wanting to hit that 50 to 60% of your overall energy intake being from predominantly that source. And then we're looking at obviously sufficient fats, sufficient protein, and then really breaking away from any kind of food rules, fears, hangups that a person might have had so that they can have a normal healthy, inclusive relationship with food.
(01:10:07):
Now the third missing piece of the puzzle is stress management. So like we said, exercise can be a physical form of stress and also psychologically we can have stress as well. That might be external sources of stress, so things like finances or stress at work or stress within a relationship, but it can also be internal sources of stress or perfectionism and black and white thinking and those all or nothing mentalities and self-criticism, that is a form of stress as well. This is often the piece that people don't like to work on just, oh, I don't want to be mindful. I don't want to make sure I have enough sleep. I don't want to work on the parts of myself that I could easily just ignore and not do anything about. But oftentimes we have people that come to us and they're like, well, I'm eating more and I'm exercising less.
(01:11:01):
And we're like, yeah, but you have a very high stress life and you have to work on focusing on that too. So those are the kinds of three main factors that we help people through and it's very easy, even though all of those three things are simple, it doesn't make them easy. And that is because we're so wrapped up in this culture that says it's bad not to exercise or it's bad to eat these foods or it's lazy if you're not doing absolutely everything on your to-do list. And those unrealistic expectations are what keep us stuck in these patterns that are perpetuating maybe that missing menstrual cycle or unhealthy relationship with food or exercise. So that is where you start and it can take a while,
Brock Ashby (01:11:49):
Man, that work, that self-work, that's so much harder because you have to look into yourself. I feel like it's a lot easier to focus on workouts or training less or food because then it's kind of not you. It's like, oh, that's just my training. That's not me as a person and that's just my diet. That's not who I am. But when you have to work on, okay, am I a perfectionist or why do I have this anxiety or why do I have this stress? That's you. And that's why it's so much easier to push that away to be just give me diet and nutrition and that's fine. And even sleep. I find that as a coach, one of the hardest things to try and I don't feel like I need to do this, but I kind of do. At the same time, I need to sell people on the idea that sleep is essential. And that's more like work you have to do to yourself, putting yourself to bed. It's so much easier when if you are lucky enough and blessed enough to have parents that used to put you to bed at night. It's so much easier when someone tells you to go to bed. But as an adult, we suck at doing that for ourselves.
Sarah Liz King (01:12:51):
Oh, we do. We
Brock Ashby (01:12:53):
Can't put ourselves to
Sarah Liz King (01:12:53):
Bed. No, it's so interesting that you say that because when I'm talking to people and I'm often working with moms or women that are about to become moms or want to become moms, I was like, think about the routine and the amount of time that you spend putting a child to bed. You have a particular time where you're like, look, I'm going to feed the child a really lovely meal a few hours before they're going to go to sleep and then we're going to do bath time and then I'm going to rock them to sleep or I'm going to play music or I'm going to read the book book and I'm going to create a calm environment for this child to drift off to sleep. And then we go and sit on the couch and scroll on our phones and then try and go to bed and we're like wide awake and we wonder why we feel so tired in the morning if we took just a 1% sliver of the amount of time and care and attention that we would putting a child to bed onto ourselves. Imagine how much of a better quality of sleep you might be having, but we just don't see it as a priority because it doesn't give us an instantaneous outcome.
Brock Ashby (01:14:06):
For me, it was a waste of time for a long, long, long time. I was just to say, if I could take a pill and not sleep, I'll take the pill and just get things done. But man, since I transitioned online, that's probably been the biggest blessing that it's been for me is being able to sleep. Because the fact is, as a personal trainer to pay your bills and not be homeless, you have to be at the gym. You've got
Sarah Liz King (01:14:28):
To work to live.
Brock Ashby (01:14:29):
Yeah, I was there six leave at nine. I was there all the time. But then when I went online, I did it for a myriad of reasons. I wanted to study more and be more in tune with research and cutting edge with my personal training
Sarah Liz King (01:14:43):
Because, and you don't have time to do that when you're face-to-face.
Brock Ashby (01:14:46):
Oh man, it was so hard. I used to, because you sit there with this decision, should I cancel two clients or three clients or a whole half day of work or even a full day and go spend money but learn. So you're like, Hmm, should I make a thousand or lose 2000? So I feel like that's why a lot of personal trainers just kind of get stuck in their wheels or sorry, get stuck spinning their wheels because they see that trade off. They go, oh, it's not really worth it. And I feel for them. I was there too, but thankfully I used to take that time away because I saw trainers doing the same thing over and over again. Their clients not getting results, they're not getting new leads, they're not implementing new things that could be better for themselves as an educator, but also their clients towards getting results. So I went online for that massively, but also I was like, man, I can sleep. Not that I would just wake up at 10:00 AM these days and be like, oh yeah,
Sarah Liz King (01:15:43):
Online you coaching, you get seven to eight hours life changing.
Brock Ashby (01:15:46):
I've never been as consistent as I was. I used to just be so mayhem when I was a personal trainer and you are trying to preach to your clients, go to sleep,
Sarah Liz King (01:15:58):
Especially the people that don't have children yet.
Brock Ashby (01:16:01):
Yeah, I was that guy for many of the years that I was coaching, I was single, no had way at, I had no hobbies because work was my hobby and training was my hobby, which I did too much of. And my friends were personal trainers at the gym too. So I was just, training was easy, everything was easy, but I didn't sleep and I probably wasn't the best example of health as well. I was doing probably 30,000 steps a day. It was crazy. And training twice a day. So I would literally on my break, go and eat two Guzman Gomez burritos.
Sarah Liz King (01:16:35):
You can't get the energy in any other way.
Brock Ashby (01:16:37):
I'd go home and eat a tub of connoisseur.
Sarah Liz King (01:16:40):
And that's the thing, you don't realise how much that incidental movement impacts on how much energy you're putting out. And I think a lot of people we're now stuck in that wear the fitness watch, get the 10,000 steps. But I'm like, why? What are you doing that for? Is that actually something that you specifically you need to be doing? Or can you give yourself the grace to literally just remember that sometimes our brains use up a whole bunch of energy. And if you have a very mentally involved job where you're doing a lot of deeper thinking kind of work that sometimes it is better off for you to save that energy, to do that deeper thinking work than it is to stress about, oh my God, I only got X number of steps per day. Like bigger fish to fry. Sometimes one of our priorities has to shift to let other priorities take precedence.
Brock Ashby (01:17:36):
Yeah, I think that's important to acknowledge the importance of not just trying to spread yourself too thin and do everything at once, which is hard because everyone's doing everything.
Sarah Liz King (01:17:46):
And I think to your point, personal training can be such a rewarding place to be, but I think it's not set up to be sustainable for life. And I think what I find really interesting is now there's the presence of coaches for coaches make X figure incomes every single month as a personal trainer. And to anyone out there thinking of doing those things, I want you to think what you want. A lot of these programmes are just do more of this on social media and sell your soul and just think of quick ways to make money. And then you'll hit your income goals. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How is that actually helping people be better at their craft? How is that actually helping people understand their numbers or what they're building towards or building better boundaries, all things that you need as a fitness or a health professional.
(01:18:55):
So my biggest thing is just be aware that you probably want a career for the rest of your life, whether that is in personal training or another health profession and work is an endless task. That's the second part. You are not an endless resource. You have to figure out what your star and endpoint is to your day and to your week. And as hard as boundaries are, sticking to those is actually what is going to help you be more successful is actually what's going to help you sit down and do the professional development and be curious about whether the decision that you're about to make to add a new service or a different offering is really going to serve you.
Brock Ashby (01:19:39):
Yeah, you touched on it. Well, I think a lot of, and this is just in the wellness space, you talked on people signing up to courses and trying to grow their business and make six figures in a month or in a year or whatever they want to do. They don't focus on the craftsmanship of actually being an expert. I hate that word now because of what social media's done to it. But that's why I originally left face-to-face personal training because I wasn't expert in the gym like a personal trainer, which is what people see as an expert when often I think that's not the right word to explain us. But now, and I've talked about this probably on the last two or three podcasts, I have this golden rule that I always have to be studying. I always have to be reading something one, and I actually try and make it a two part rule.
(01:20:25):
One that's self healthy and motivationally that kind of helps light my fire, but then one that's actually practical that I can learn and become a better coach. So I finished a programme design course probably about eight weeks ago now, and now every morning I've been reading a research review that I sign up for, and I haven't read it for ages. I was doing other things. So now I'm reading that. And I don't think many coaches in the health space spend time to do that. It's more so how do I push another reel out? How do I make another YouTube video that goes big? Or how do I set up my business so it does this and that, but the actually quality or excellence of their service isn't at the level that it should be or could be.
Sarah Liz King (01:21:10):
And I think that comes down to what you value, which is continuous professional growth and improvement, which I think it's not glorified as much sitting down and highlighting a research paper much less sexy than standing in front of a camera and creating a reel. I'm not diminishing the fact that yes, showing up and having a presence can be really important in the online space a hundred percent. But I think sometimes I think about the podcast that I create and sometimes how much research I have to do to create a really solid piece of content. And for me, I love it. I get to learn something and I get to share it, but it takes 10 times as long as creating a 32nd reel. And the thing is, people see that as value versus what is actually value, which is when you learn something, when you get to teach someone else that knowledge, when you have your own light bulb moments. And I think as coaches, one of the most fulfilling things is obviously we get to do that with ourselves, but we also kind of pass that on and we get to see those light bulb moments in our clients who get to learn from what we've learned. And that is such a special place to be.
Brock Ashby (01:22:34):
And sometimes I get carried away. I'm not sure if you get this too, but I get, I'm so far ahead in terms of what I'm learning and the things that I forget how simple the things that people actually need to grasp are. So for example, probably the most common compliment I get of my coaching with people getting successful results is that their mindset for food has changed. The literal idea of flexible dieting blows their mind. And I'm like, where have you been? Yeah, that whole dichotomous thinking, black, white,
Sarah Liz King (01:23:12):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:23:13):
Everything can fit. Ditching that, that everything can fit. They literally, that's probably the biggest compliment, and that's probably one of the most simple things. But I think as a coach, we have to acknowledge that that's awesome. And if that's the only thing that they learned from us, that's amazing. But there's so much more as well. There's so many other things that we can learn. Yeah,
Sarah Liz King (01:23:34):
So true. And I think oftentimes the clients that I work with, we are on long journeys together, especially those people that are in recovery from eating disorders and disordered eating, sometimes their clients for anywhere between six months to two years. And the amount that they get to learn along the way is so deep and so knowledgeable for themselves, and it is great. But sometimes, yeah, I do have to pull myself back and usually ask the question, would you like to know more about this?
Brock Ashby (01:24:09):
Instead of being like,
Sarah Liz King (01:24:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm much better with my communication skills now. Obviously kind of having, I guess more professional development in that area of counselling and coaching and all of that kind of stuff, but being a better listener and going, would you like to know this versus, you need to know this. Sometimes there are things that people need to know, but yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:24:33):
So we're going to have to wrap this up. There's many things we can talk about. Maybe there'll be a part two of our conversation maybe. But I have a final three questions that I like to ask people because as you know, I am obsessed with self-development in whatever way that is. Obviously physically, I really enjoy training, and I find that the ripple effect of training is probably the most beneficial thing. I like the idea of obviously progressive overload within training to get stronger, become more resilient, all that stuff. But I think in life, it's made me a bit more resilient too, and all that kind of stuff is poured out. So I really do the idea of how we can continue to grow and get better. So I just have three questions. The first one is, what is something you do every day that helps you become a better person?
Sarah Liz King (01:25:24):
Probably how I start my morning. So every day I wake up my cute little dog, Henry is like, let's go. So always make sure that I take time, have breakfast, and then we always go for a walk. And having that time just to be with myself with walk by the ocean, and then go and get a coffee. And every morning I have this little ritual I do of
Brock Ashby (01:25:51):
Morning coffee thoughts, morning coffee,
Sarah Liz King (01:25:52):
Thoughts.
Brock Ashby (01:25:53):
I've been watching them.
Sarah Liz King (01:25:53):
Yeah, it's just little three things that I'm thinking about or pondering that are a reflection of how I can be better in my own life and maybe things that other people can use in their lives as well. But having that slow start to the morning is really important to me. And also another daily thing that I do is just making sure that there's an element of fun and joy, because I do work really, really hard. I think having time to switch off and realising that being better is sometimes just letting myself be. So that would be, yeah, my answer to that one, that's
Brock Ashby (01:26:38):
Definitely something that I've been trying to lean into more is having a bit more emptiness
Sarah Liz King (01:26:43):
White space.
Brock Ashby (01:26:45):
I used to feel really guilty that I wasn't listening to something or thinking about something and writing something down, ideas for an email, ideas for a piece of content or a person that I need to tell something to because yeah, I would feel lazy. There's this thing that I was like, I have to do. Things do.
Sarah Liz King (01:27:06):
Yep. But you're a human being. Yeah, not a human doing.
Brock Ashby (01:27:09):
Yeah, I like that. I like that. And yeah, I felt that's really helped me actually become a bit more original.
Sarah Liz King (01:27:17):
It does.
Brock Ashby (01:27:18):
Yeah, because I was, well, we kind of are at the same time an accumulation of thoughts and books and podcasts we listen to and stuff. But then if you don't have anything to add to that, that's unique to you, it's just kind of like plagiarism, I guess you're just saying other people's stuff. So it's nice to have your own twist, and I feel like I definitely lacked that. And to go even further, when you were talking about your central nervous system being fried, when my lower back was whispering to me saying, you need to rest. Interesting. I also felt like as
Sarah Liz King (01:27:56):
Was your whole body telling you that?
Brock Ashby (01:27:58):
Yeah, I couldn't really give anything. I had no original ideas. I would write programmes, which didn't really take much thought because exercises and once you understand the structure of programming, it's not very creative. It kind of is, but it's also quite, this is just what needs to be done. But I definitely lacked a bit of character and originality. I was so exhausted.
Sarah Liz King (01:28:22):
You need that white space in order to get there.
Brock Ashby (01:28:23):
It's so good. Question number two, what is a quote that you like apart from where a human being, not a human doing, what is a quote that's made you a better person that really stands out to you?
Sarah Liz King (01:28:37):
I'm going to butcher this, and it's a quote by Maya Angelou, and it probably isn't this exact wording, but we delight in the beauty of the butterfly, but we rarely kind accept the changes that it must go through to get there. Again, I probably butchered that, but it is a Maya Angelou quote, so it's kind of like we always delight in how beautiful things are at the end, but we rarely see the process of how much change that little caterpillar has to go through in order to become this beautiful butterfly.
Brock Ashby (01:29:12):
I feel like that's irrelevant to what you do as work, but also so relevant also to me. And even social media, again, I don't want to keep talking about it, but I feel like it's all butterflies and there's no talk of the caterpillar going through the process.
Sarah Liz King (01:29:26):
I mean, I have a tattoo on my right arm that's like a single rose, which was a quote that I used to tell myself when I was going through recovery, which kind of got me through, which is similar to the butterfly quote, but it is, I am a garden of a single rose blossoming in infinite ways, and it kind of just let me realise that that whole process was me growing in a multitude of different ways, because all I was really focused on at that point was how uncomfortable the weight gain was. But I was like, but you're gaining so much else back at the same time. So I kind of answered with two quotes.
Brock Ashby (01:30:02):
Sorry. Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. Last question. A book that has made you better? I love reading. I read all the time
Sarah Liz King (01:30:12):
A book that has made me better,
Brock Ashby (01:30:15):
Or a couple or a few. If you can decide,
Sarah Liz King (01:30:19):
I love Atomic Habits. That's been one of the ones that's probably changed a whole lot of the things that I do for the better, to be honest.
Brock Ashby (01:30:28):
And what's some practical things you took out of that? I read that during Covid.
Sarah Liz King (01:30:32):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:30:32):
And I took a lot from it too. Probably one of the best reads I did during the Pandemic.
Sarah Liz King (01:30:37):
I love some of the really practical things that he talks about habit stacking, so you want to do something new or you just stick it onto something that you're already doing. Then I really like the process versus the outcome goals, which is what he talks about a lot, and he talks about an ice cube melting. If we judge the ice cube based on it only changing one degree in the room and not melting, we'll see ourselves as a failure. But if we look at what happens over time, we can kind of go, well, just that one degree change without one little principle that we've implemented has such a big effect over time. Those are the two biggest things. So yeah, that's probably one of my best self-development books that I regularly recommend. I'm also a big Brene Brown fan.
Brock Ashby (01:31:27):
I don't know
Sarah Liz King (01:31:28):
Her. Brene Brown. Yeah, I mean, you should know her. So she wrote a book recently called Atlas of the Heart, which is really all about emotions. Oh,
Brock Ashby (01:31:35):
My wife's reading that.
Sarah Liz King (01:31:36):
Yeah. Yeah. So
Brock Ashby (01:31:37):
She's in steal it. She's in the house, but I'm just not aware of it. Okay.
Sarah Liz King (01:31:42):
Yeah, and that's really good because I often find people's emotional vocabularies quite limited. We talk a lot about our thoughts and changing our thoughts, but actually our emotions are so incredibly, inherently important to things that we need, and understanding where they come from and what purpose they serve and why that might be happening in your life is such a helpful thing, especially if you find uncomfortable emotions difficult to sit with. Just being more curious about them can be a good place to start.
Brock Ashby (01:32:15):
And how can people find you? Where do you want to direct
Sarah Liz King (01:32:18):
People? I'm most active on Instagram. You can find me at Sarah Liz King. My website's the same. Sarah liz king.com, or I do have a podcast mostly related to eating disorder recovery and recovery, which is called Holistic Health Radio that you can check out.
Brock Ashby (01:32:35):
Awesome. Well, yeah, we'll wrap it there. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your knowledge. This is stuff that obviously I don't specialise in, but it's super important, and I think it's something that in my world definitely isn't talked about enough. Maybe in your world it's talked about more because obviously you specialise in stuff, but I feel like it's, even some of my female clients, I have to coach them for a while for them to actually open up with this stuff. And I'm not saying that they need to tell me their whole life story, but it's a pretty important part. If you're losing your cycle or if setting calories and macros isn't good for you, then let me know because there's other ways to go about it. A
Sarah Liz King (01:33:20):
Hundred
Brock Ashby (01:33:20):
Percent. We're not always calorie and macro target hitters sometimes. It's just
Sarah Liz King (01:33:27):
Yeah, and that's why it's one small step coaching. You get to shift and choose and personalise things based on your client's needs, and that's the way it should be.
Brock Ashby (01:33:37):
Yeah. Well, yeah, I really appreciate your knowledge, and I love having people on that really commit themselves to excellence and providing a great service and not just selling A PDF and see you later really helping people. So yeah, it's been an honour to have you
Sarah Liz King (01:33:54):
On. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Awesome. Thanks.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number 26 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. I'm here with Anthony Michael. We just did a photo shoot this morning, probably our second one that we've done so far. Third? Third. Okay. Sorry, third,
Anthony Michael (00:14):
Third,
Brock Ashby (00:15):
Third. Give us an introduction. I probably won't do it justice. This,
Anthony Michael (00:21):
Well, what would you like to know? How would you describe myself? How would I describe myself?
Brock Ashby (00:25):
I would say photographer, videographer, real estate agent, or Rialto.
Anthony Michael (00:31):
Everyone hates real estate agents. Okay. Everyone does. I like to say property sales. Okay.
Brock Ashby (00:36):
Okay. Property sales
Anthony Michael (00:37):
Sounds a bit more lead. The real estate agent. Is that
Brock Ashby (00:39):
Okay? Yeah. Well, you said not to mention the other word, so I won't mention that. Which is
Anthony Michael (00:44):
The other word?
Brock Ashby (00:45):
The company.
Anthony Michael (00:46):
Oh, retail. JB HiFi. Look, I started at JB HiFi in 2004, and I think I was at JB HiFi for like, I'm still there one day a month, but I've been there for like 17, 18 years. But over that time I probably quit eight or nine times to travel. So essentially JB Hi-Fi, real estate photography, filmmaking, writing direction travel, travelling
Brock Ashby (01:08):
Travel bug extraordinaire. So yeah, I guess everything. How do you wrap that up in one thing? No, you can't. You can't. I won't put you in a box like that, but thank you. I guess introduce yourself, why you got into, well, because I met you through photography or Instagram and I saw your work. Yeah. Well, I guess take us from the start. Where'd you grow up? What was school? Did you study or did you go straight into work? And then how you kind of ended up doing this wide array of things? I
Anthony Michael (01:39):
Think, well, I grew up on the Sunshine Coast, born in Sydney, raised on the Sunshine Coast from the age of five or six in high school. I think I was like 10 or 11. I started using the video camera at school and started filming all the school events. What
Brock Ashby (01:53):
Sort of video camera was that? At the time,
Anthony Michael (01:54):
It was one of those giant ones you put on your shoulder, you put a VHS in the camera in order to record. That's how bad it was.
Brock Ashby (02:01):
The camera's like the size of A VHS now.
Anthony Michael (02:03):
Literally, it was insane. The BVH mechanism would close. You were probably still in diapers at that point.
Brock Ashby (02:09):
What year was it?
Anthony Michael (02:09):
It was 1997.
Brock Ashby (02:12):
Yeah, I was four. You were four. I was probably still wearing diapers at four. You never know.
Anthony Michael (02:15):
Wow. Well, God, I hope not.
Brock Ashby (02:17):
My goodness.
Anthony Michael (02:19):
And then I think it was like 2003 or four, I got really depressed at some stage in my life and I picked up a camera for the first time in four or five years, and I actually started shooting my friends, and then it gradually grew and grew and grew. And then I opened my business doing it in 2007. And since then, photography's been like my outlet. Some people have fitness, some people have yoga or some people write or whatever it may be. For me, it's always been photography's my scapegoats. So
Brock Ashby (02:46):
What was so freeing about photography when you did it? Like you said you were depressed and then it helped you, or it did, maybe you weren't feeling yourself and then you picked it up and felt
Anthony Michael (02:54):
Better. I think it was the creative aspect, getting creative and using my mind on something that wasn't focusing on something else. And on top of that, having someone in front of the lens of your camera, depending on what you're shooting, it's quite a vulnerable thing. So many people are uncomfortable in front of a camera, they don't like being shot. Even a photograph, you go to dinner, let's get a picture. Everyone. Oh, no, they don't. They just,
Brock Ashby (03:14):
I'm sitting on the wrong side of the table.
Anthony Michael (03:16):
Oh, I'm at the wrong side. The lighting's wrong. They all chuck a fit. And I'm like, yeah, to have someone in front of your camera for an hour or two, getting professional photos, it's an experience that you will only ever have. No one else will ever have. You get to see that person at the most vulnerable in a way. So yeah, it's a really cool experience. I love that.
Brock Ashby (03:34):
So what would your advice be for people that feel uncomfortable in front of a camera? Because now everyone is taking photos of themselves, videoing themselves. Everyone's trying to start a personal brand or even just, I'm about to be a father. People just take so many videos and photos of their babies. Everyone's just capturing their whole life. They do. How do people get comfortable in front of a camera, whether it's a photo or a video? How do you make people feel comfortable? Done? A few. We've done a few shoots, a few things, and you I think, distract me. Well,
Anthony Michael (04:04):
I do distract you. Well, I think it's all about having fun. Don't take it too seriously. Just have fun with it. Laugh, have a conversation. Get like, if you get along with the person, the energy's great. It's even better. You're going to have an even better time. But if you're stiff and nervous about how you're going to look at how they're going to turn out, don't worry. There's Photoshop to fix anything you hate. And people are so precarious of that. I don't use Photoshop. I'm a natural photographer. You do? Of course you do. Everything's fake at Brock Ashby. No.
(04:34):
How do you make someone, okay, I guess when you're younger, you just want to look older. When you're older, you want to look younger, but in between, there's a point where you just go, fuck it, I'm done. I don't care. Let's just do whatever. If you could just get to that stage and not care, someone else is going to appreciate that you are in the photo with them. Because when you're dead, they're going to look back and go, oh, we've got no photos of that person. But if you've just taken the time to be in a selfie or get a portrait or a headshot or whatever it is, even for a LinkedIn profile, anything, there's nothing wrong with getting a photo taken. It's not a big deal. It documents who you are,
Brock Ashby (05:09):
But how do you get to a point where like, oh, I'm just going to have fun. Because most people hate it.
Anthony Michael (05:13):
A lot of people do hate it.
Brock Ashby (05:14):
So how do you get to the point of, oh, this is fun.
Anthony Michael (05:16):
Well, they say they hate it, and then you might catch them off guard looking at themselves in their phone, trying to get the right selfie, taking 60 shots. That's like, you know, look good on camera. You just want to get the right angle and you're afraid of someone else not getting the right angle or making you look dreadful. And I guarantee you, when anyone ever takes a photo of you, like a dinner or a birthday or a wedding, oh God, I look fat, I look dreadful. Well, what would you do differently if you felt great on the day? On the day you feel a million bucks, you dressed up, but you still think you look crap in photos. It doesn't make sense to me. It blows my mind where people think that,
Brock Ashby (05:47):
Well, I guess the best way to do it, and this is just coming from a personal training perspective, here we
Anthony Michael (05:51):
Go,
Brock Ashby (05:52):
Is, and this might sound harsh, get ripped. That's a better way to put it off what I was going to say. But yeah, put the work in. Yeah, that's true. That does help you. I understand the whole confidence thing as well, because I'm big on that. But I guess as someone that has, I guess, grown up skinny and never really been overweight, it's hard for me to say, oh, just enjoy it. Because it's like, well, you haven't been fat. That's just not how my genetics work. I kind of work the other way around. But
Anthony Michael (06:20):
Someone could be fat and feeling incredible and they love getting their photo taken. It just depends mentally, I guess also where you're at. But yeah, I agree. Go in the gym, motivating yourself, feeling better within yourself is obviously going to make you feel more comfortable in photos, filming everything.
Brock Ashby (06:35):
And the worst thing about photos is they make you look bigger than you actually are.
Anthony Michael (06:37):
They add 10 kilos, it's dreadful. Well, I look at photos of myself and go to, I actually look like that. I recently had a birthday and I looked at the photos of myself and I just went, I did not look like that on the night, but I do. That's what you look like.
Brock Ashby (06:50):
It is what it is. You can't, don't lie. They don't
Anthony Michael (06:52):
Lie. And that's terrible. It's made me wake up and go, I really need to change things.
Brock Ashby (06:59):
So what's been your favourite experience as a photographer or some of the favourite shots?
Anthony Michael (07:07):
Shoot that I've been
Brock Ashby (07:07):
On or? Yeah, you've taken Or favourite locations you've been, favourite things that you've captured. You showed me some of the travel stuff. That Waterfall was amazing. I dunno where it was. Iceland. Iceland, that was amazing. You've been to significant, some beautiful places. I
Anthony Michael (07:20):
Really have. I've done a lot of travelling. And I started travelling in, I think 2004 was my first major trip overseas. Went to America. And then the next year I said to my dad, I'm going to move to London. He's like, well, whatever you save, I'll match it. And I was like, brilliant. So I saved five grand. He gave me five grand. Wow. And I went to London for two
Brock Ashby (07:38):
Years. I hope my dad's listening.
Anthony Michael (07:41):
I hope any parents listening, go support your child. Dad. Did
Brock Ashby (07:44):
You hear that? Dad?
Anthony Michael (07:47):
So I guess for me to be able to, a lot of photographers will only capture one thing. They'll either do people or travel photography or food or whatever it is. I love capturing everything. I love shooting people, men, women, weddings, babies, families, kids, food. I've done eight cookbooks. I've shot a lot of food. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, I've shot eight cookbooks. It's amazing getting to taste all the food at the end of what you shoot it as well of the job. Yeah. Photography is rewarding for me because not only am I being creative, but I'm experiencing new things that in places to be able to go to a place and capture it and bring that home with you. A lot of people just get at their iPhone, take a shitty shot of the clouds and a little bit of a building. It's like, you got the wrong angle there, babe. It's so bad. But I guess the best thing I've taken out of photography is that it's taken me all around the world with it multiple times. I've travelled all over the world shooting everyone and everywhere. And that's probably the most rewarding part of it. Meeting people from other cultures and learning new languages and learning things from people, connecting again in ways that you wouldn't if you were just having a conversation. So yeah, it's continually rewarding. I love it.
Brock Ashby (08:53):
So what makes a good shot?
Anthony Michael (08:55):
What makes a good shot?
Brock Ashby (08:57):
So many photographers, there's so many photos. Some just look amazing, some look terrible. Like you said, what to you makes a good shot?
Anthony Michael (09:04):
I think you've got to have the eye. You've really got to have a good eye for photography. I hate it. My biggest thing I hate is when you go overseas and you go, oh, excuse me, sir Matt, would you mind taking a photo of me and my friend at this monument? And they're like, oh yeah, sure. They take the picture and you look at it, you go, is it good? You're like, it is. Thank you so much. And then you're like, hold on, they're going to get somebody else to take this picture. That's why people have drones now. They can just chuck the drone up and get the picture the way they want it. Some people just don't know how to take a
Brock Ashby (09:34):
Photo. If someone's older than 50, it's really hard to trust that they nailed it.
Anthony Michael (09:38):
I've got friends in their twenties and they don't even know how to take a photo sometimes with an iPhone.
Brock Ashby (09:42):
I did a podcast a couple of days ago with Norma, and we were at the art gallery in Mossman, and the lady that was working behind the desk was, I dunno, early sixties.
Anthony Michael (09:54):
She's probably listening. She's 45.
Brock Ashby (09:59):
I hope not. But I asked her to take a photo of us. Yeah.
Anthony Michael (10:01):
Oh no.
Brock Ashby (10:03):
So we're standing in front of this painting, I can see it. I'm like, okay, it's in an art gallery. It's a painting. It's colourful. Was it
Anthony Michael (10:09):
All roof and no painting?
Brock Ashby (10:13):
So I lined it up, I was like, just hold it here and take it. So she grabs it, takes a huge step back and goes to the side. And then she starts zooming in. So all the steps that she's taken back and went to the side, she's just trying to make up zoom, zoom. So she takes it and it's like half my should's gone. Normal was fine. So that was all good, but it was from down low aiming up. So it was like the top of the painting and the roof and then stopping at our belly button type of thing.
Anthony Michael (10:41):
Still take a picture of the roof. It's a place of space.
Brock Ashby (10:43):
So I was like, oh. She's like, how was it? I was like, oh, can we try that again? I pushed for it and then I said, I don't mean to be rude, but just hold it here and just leave it here and just take a photo. So she goes like this, and then I see her fingers coming back in for this bloody zoom. She and she sends it in and she shows me and I'm like,
Anthony Michael (11:05):
Thank you so much.
Brock Ashby (11:06):
No. I'm like, sorry to be rude, but can you please do it again? So I grabbed your hand and I said, just leave your hand here and there's no need to zoom
Anthony Michael (11:17):
You
Brock Ashby (11:17):
Did it. Just hit go. Did you really? Yeah. And we got it, but it took us five minutes. But it's so hard to trust you.
Anthony Michael (11:23):
A trick around that now is if I have to ask someone to take a picture, I go to the spot, I take a picture of how I want it to look, whether there's someone's there or not, and go see this framing. That's exactly how I'd like the picture to be taken if you don't mind. And they're like, yeah, sure, no problems. Then they take it for me. Might be like a fraction off, but it's enough that I can crop it and make it look great if I need to.
Brock Ashby (11:40):
I think people appreciate a bit a direction as
Anthony Michael (11:42):
Well. They do. But normally if someone shows me something how to do something, I'll remember it. If you read it or watch it something, I don't get it. I need someone to show me how to do something first and then I'm good to go. And I think if you can apply that when it comes to getting a photo taken by a stranger on a street
Brock Ashby (11:57):
Or when they start turning their phone, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, I can't use it. Instagram hates the sideways.
Anthony Michael (12:03):
Same at a restaurant the other night where there was eight of us for dinner and she took a photo of us and literally it's our chest up and it's all the trees above. And we're like, where's our waist? Where's our feet? So I asked her to take another one and she vertically flipped the phone after I told it horizontal and I was like, oh no. So she took it. I had to zoom and crop it and netted and everything, but it just destroys the quality. It's all grainy there because you've got to zoom in and crop the photos. It's so frustrating. It is. Why isn't there an ebook on how to
Brock Ashby (12:28):
I There will how
Anthony Michael (12:29):
To take a
Brock Ashby (12:29):
Photo. Everyone's just capturing their life. Like I said, they're taking photos of everything.
Anthony Michael (12:34):
Well, being at jb Hi-Fi women, sorry, just stereotype. Women go on, women come in and buy a $3,000 iPhone. It's like you shouldn't be buying it if you don't know how to use it. And they dunno how to use it. They dunno how to take a picture or how to answer a phone call. That's not just women, that's anyone in general. But yeah, it's really bad.
Brock Ashby (12:52):
So since you've travelled a lot, what would be, so I haven't been to Europe, right? So I'm interested in Europe, but in general, where's the best place that you've been? Hard to say. Well, maybe we go top three.
Anthony Michael (13:04):
You know what, I've been around the world 15 times, multiple other trips and I always keep going back to a couple of the same places. New York for me, I've been 15 times to New York, 16 times. It's one of my favourite places on the earth. Yes, it's a city. And I love not being in a city, but if there was a city I was going to live in forever, it would be New York. It's a beautiful place. You've got a mixture of cultures, food, entertainment, everything's like, nothing shuts down. It's an unreal place. I don't dunno if you've ever been to New York,
Brock Ashby (13:31):
But I've been to New York for, I was there for 12 hours and then I flew out. I was literally there. What did you think of
Anthony Michael (13:36):
It?
Brock Ashby (13:37):
Did
Anthony Michael (13:37):
You get into the city, to Manhattan?
Brock Ashby (13:39):
Yeah. So we flew in at ridiculous time, four in the morning. I was overseas with Jamal and I was training a client actually, and he's from Chicago and he's like, oh, we'll meet in la. So we meet in la, this is the second time I went to train him. And then we went from la, then we went to New York, then we went back to Chicago. So New York, we got there at 6:00 AM and then we went to the vessel.
Anthony Michael (14:06):
Oh
Brock Ashby (14:06):
Wow. Have you been there? I have,
Anthony Michael (14:08):
Yeah. I'm legend Will Smith. It's that one the vessel. Is that what
Brock Ashby (14:13):
You, I don't know. Maybe
Anthony Michael (14:14):
It's a boat or the gym.
Brock Ashby (14:15):
No, it's not a boat origin.
Anthony Michael (14:17):
It's not a boat
Brock Ashby (14:18):
Origin. No. It kind of looks like this. So you know how they shave meat off a kebab thing? Yes. Like the things that turn around. Yes. I kind of see it looking like that. And it's like a structure. A structure. That's my for. We're filming with it.
Anthony Michael (14:33):
You'll have to Google and show me. It's a
Brock Ashby (14:34):
Building. The
Anthony Michael (14:35):
Vessel. What am I saying? Yes, I've been to the vessel, the big white building. It's the white one isn't
Brock Ashby (14:40):
It? No, the white building. Oh
Anthony Michael (14:41):
God, I'm dreadful. And I've been to New York so many times.
Brock Ashby (14:43):
So anyway, there's a place
Anthony Michael (14:45):
That looks like shaved meat. It's a cab
Brock Ashby (14:49):
And it's like, oh. Anyway, it's a structure and you can walk up and down it and go to a top. Oh
Anthony Michael (14:54):
My god, what am I talking about? I know the vessel, the brown. Yeah, I have been there. What am I
Brock Ashby (14:59):
Saying? Okay. Wow.
Anthony Michael (14:59):
That's only been there maybe three or four years. Hasn't been there that long. It's pretty new.
Brock Ashby (15:03):
Yeah. So yeah, so we went there. God,
Anthony Michael (15:05):
This is going to go viral for the guy that doesn't know what the vessel is,
Brock Ashby (15:08):
Isn't it? Yeah, the white building.
Anthony Michael (15:10):
The white building,
Brock Ashby (15:10):
The gym, the boats. So we went there and I dunno what side of New York or where it is in New York, but we went there and then we walked down all the busy streets. That's all I know. I don't know what it was. We went past the Rockefeller Centre. Beautiful. We went into the Aida store. I got some shoes there. I wanted to say I got some shoes from New York and Heida, like the flagship store. And then we went to the park. Wow. Central Central Park. Central Park, yep. We went through there and that's really it, man. I can't
Anthony Michael (15:40):
Get past the Shave Street.
Brock Ashby (15:42):
There was a place, maybe it's called the Iron or something, there's a place, a street where the building's shaped like an iron type of thing. I don't know what it's called, but we had lunch there.
Anthony Michael (15:52):
Not Chelsea, Chelsea Market down that way. Oh, I know the one, the triangle building. Yeah, yeah, I know the
Brock Ashby (15:59):
One. Is it like an iron? Do they say
Anthony Michael (16:00):
That? See, I can understand that. I forget the name of it.
Brock Ashby (16:02):
Yeah,
Anthony Michael (16:03):
It's on 34th Street.
Brock Ashby (16:05):
I don't know, 34th. But we had lunch there. Beautiful. And then we walked down to the park and then we flew out. It was just literally in and out. But
Anthony Michael (16:12):
What did you think of it?
Brock Ashby (16:13):
Oh, we went to the main place. What's that place where the big empire building screens are? Oh man, we went to the top of the Empire State. How can I forget that? Did you forget that? Yeah, yeah. So we went there and then we also went to, oh, what I was saying just before
Anthony Michael (16:26):
The shaved beat.
Brock Ashby (16:28):
No, no, no, no. After that the
Anthony Michael (16:30):
Iron,
Brock Ashby (16:30):
After the Iron Rockefeller Centre, Rockefeller walked past that. Oh mate, I'm getting lost. Anyway. Didn't spend much time there, but
Anthony Michael (16:39):
Do you have a desire to go back?
Brock Ashby (16:40):
Not really. I was saying to you before, you said that you loved London and I've just heard that it's a lot of buildings, it's a lot of architecture, museums and stuff like that. A
Anthony Michael (16:49):
Lot of history in
Brock Ashby (16:49):
London. Yeah, a lot of history. I'm not super fascinated with that stuff. I'm more like, let's go to a beach, let's go swim some
Anthony Michael (16:56):
Water. I am like that
Brock Ashby (16:57):
As well. Cliff jumping. See
Anthony Michael (16:58):
I love all that. And living on the Sunshine Coast, we've got all that mountains, beaches, everything. You name it. London. I mean I've lived there five years in my life. Two years in 2005 and six again, 13, 14, 15. And I loved it. But it's a very hard place to live if you don't have good job and good money. But if you're go in there for a visit, culture's great, jump on a red bus, get on a tube, go see all the cultural sites. There's a lot of history in London. It's a beautiful place and the people are generally very friendly there, but there are a lot of tourists. And after coming back from London only a few weeks ago, there was millions. There are millions of people travelling there at the moment. And especially since the Queen passed away, I think I got home like five days before that happened and there was already millions of people there and then more people just flew in for that to be a part of history. So good people, good place. And I do miss it, but it's not a long-term place to live for me. I could do another year or two, but I couldn't live there for the rest of my life. I don't think. So
Brock Ashby (17:55):
New York is number one.
Anthony Michael (17:57):
New York is number one
Brock Ashby (17:57):
Like you were saying. And what
Anthony Michael (17:59):
Else? Love Hong Kong. Hong Kong, pre Covid. Love Hong Kong, love Venice, Iceland. I've got some good friends that I used to work with in 2005 when I lived in London, worked at Harod. So I met an Icelandic girl and her partner at the time, well they're still together actually. They moved back to Iceland a few years later. So I've been a few times now to visit them and every time I go, Iceland's one of those places where they used to get five or 600,000 tourists a year and now they're getting two and a half million a year because so many films are being shot there. Cruise, everyone just wants to see all the natural beauty and that's the difference with going anywhere else in the world. Iceland is completely all natural beauty. Glacier's Mountain was waterfalls. It's all scenic.
Brock Ashby (18:39):
Do you know any of the movies that have been shot there?
Anthony Michael (18:41):
Yeah, oblivion with Tom Cruise was shot there fast. I love Furious. I love that movie. Yeah, it's a great film.
Brock Ashby (18:46):
Great film. I've actually seen that one. Yeah, you've
Anthony Michael (18:48):
Seen it. It's amazing. So all of that volcanic black ash that he's on that is in Iceland.
Brock Ashby (18:53):
I still don't understand that movie by the way. Oblivion.
Anthony Michael (18:56):
Yeah, we'll talk after the podcast. It could fill a whole podcast. It's a great film. Diana, the day oh oh seven. No, there's lots of films that are being shot there and TV series that are being shot there at the moment as well. And after being there the first time was 2015 and again a few weeks ago. And to see the difference each three times that I've gone in the town and how much it's grown at a rapid rate. It's insane, but it's a very expensive place. Everything's imported obviously because they can't grow anything really. So cold, so very expensive place. I think three vodkas cost us 90 Australian dollars. Wow. Wow. It was a lot of
Brock Ashby (19:30):
Money. Some sober nights.
Anthony Michael (19:32):
Fish and chips cost me like 35, 40 Australian dollars. It's not that cheap.
Brock Ashby (19:37):
Fish and chips back in New Zealand when we used to get 'em from fish and chips. Fish and chips. Fish and chip store. Yep mate. 10 bucks.
Anthony Michael (19:43):
Yeah. Bargain. Well that's it. Back home Bucks. It's like a
Brock Ashby (19:47):
Dollar 50, a scoop. Couple of scoops. Fish mate. If you're balling, you get a burger. If you're balling, you get a burger. Well if I was say played rugby in the weekend or played well or something, I'm like, dad, can I get a burger or hot dogs? I'm not a huge fan of the hotdog.
Anthony Michael (20:04):
I prefer a hamburger.
Brock Ashby (20:05):
Yeah,
Anthony Michael (20:06):
Unless you're in America, hot dog and a giant hand at a game, a baseball game. Oh
Brock Ashby (20:09):
Yeah, I had a Chicago hotdog. You did? Yeah. What was it
Anthony Michael (20:11):
Like?
Brock Ashby (20:12):
I liked it.
Anthony Michael (20:12):
Yeah. Onion, cheese, mustard you have.
Brock Ashby (20:14):
I think I had all of them. He's like triple. Yeah. The guy that I was there, he was like, you have to experience a true hot dog. But I think a true hot dog over there is no ketchup or something. It's just mustard. No
Anthony Michael (20:25):
Ketchup. It's mustard.
Brock Ashby (20:26):
Yeah, I'm not a fan of that because I'm a tomato sauce fiend.
Anthony Michael (20:28):
I prefer ketchup over tomato sauce. And I had this debate with friends the other day is hot sauce. Do you prefer to keep your sauce outside of the cupboard or in the fridge?
Brock Ashby (20:37):
I hate hot sauce.
Anthony Michael (20:39):
Not in terms of spicy. In terms of temperature. Temperature. Do you prefer cold in the fridge sauce or outside room? Temperature
Brock Ashby (20:45):
Sauce. It's got to be cold. Really? It's got to be cold.
Anthony Michael (20:48):
Yeah. See I can't do cold sauce. And everyone's like, do you want some tomato sauce? I'm like, do you have ketchup? And Fred's like it's the same thing. It's not the same
Brock Ashby (20:54):
Thing. No, it's not the same thing. Totally different taste. Ketchup tastes a bit more sweet. It's like sugary.
Anthony Michael (20:59):
No tomato sauce is sweeter. Really? Yeah, they use less tomatoes and more sweetener I think.
Brock Ashby (21:04):
Have you had New Zealand tomato sauce? Watties? No.
Anthony Michael (21:09):
Wa yes they have.
Brock Ashby (21:10):
Yeah, that was good. It's great sauce. But there's what's Homestyle? So my brother used to love that really? Homestyle. There's actually chunks of onion and tomato and stuff in it. So it was like that was like OG tomato sauce. They don't have really tasted no here. It's like I get the Hinz one, which is like 40% less sugar. So I'm trying to, which has probably
Anthony Michael (21:28):
Got more fat.
Brock Ashby (21:30):
Nah, I don't know what's in it.
Anthony Michael (21:32):
But you love it. That's the best
Brock Ashby (21:33):
Part. Yeah, it does taste good. I did want to talk about your other job that we didn't mention. I was going to say food critic, but movie
Anthony Michael (21:40):
Critic. Movie critic. I used to work in radio in 2005 and six.
Brock Ashby (21:45):
You said you still have a radio show? I
Anthony Michael (21:46):
Do. And then I quit and then 2017 I started back at the local radio station on the coast where a lot of my friends worked.
Brock Ashby (21:52):
Yeah, what's the station you want to
Anthony Michael (21:53):
Push it? It's 91.9 CFM and 92.7 Mix fm. And Todd and Sammy are very good friends of mine. I've known Todd 15 years, Sammy about 23 years and two weeks into getting a job there as a tech. So tech back then was keeping them on air when they're at an outside broadcast. So they said, look, we love movies. I used to work at the cinema. That's how we all met. Why don't you come on our show and do movie reviews? So for almost five years now, I've become a movie critic. So I go to the movies every week, see the latest release and then go in their show and review it. I sort of just take the piss out of movies or I just rave about how good it is. But during Covid it turned to, because the cinema shut down, it turned to streaming. So now every week I do a streaming show and I also do a new release at the cinema as well.
Brock Ashby (22:38):
You must be watching a lot of stuff. How do you find time for that?
Anthony Michael (22:41):
Well sometimes I sneakily accidentally don't watch it and I review it anyway. So good. So great. Haven't seen it. Dunno. And then the next week I'll do Sydney and go, oh my God, I gave that movie such a good review and it was so bad. But since I've come back from overseas this trip for the last two months, I just don't have a desire to watch as much as I used to watch.
Brock Ashby (23:00):
Is that because you just feel like, and this sounds cheesy, but living your own movie?
Anthony Michael (23:04):
Yeah, literally. Literally. It's become less of a priority as much as movies is my life. I grew up on that. My dad used to manage the state theatre here in Sydney for 45 years. So when he retired he got a Pioneer Pass for free movies for life. So my whole life I've had free movies up until he cocked it. So I've grown up on watching every single movie that's pretty much ever come out. My back catalogue is extensive. It's ridiculous.
Brock Ashby (23:31):
Well, you're always so disappointed in me that I haven't seen anything I,
Anthony Michael (23:33):
I'm so
Brock Ashby (23:34):
Disappointed. But actually
Anthony Michael (23:35):
You haven't seen Top Gun yet, have you? I
Brock Ashby (23:37):
Haven't
Anthony Michael (23:37):
Met. Thank you. It's been a pleasure,
Brock Ashby (23:39):
Mate. I've been trying to beg my wife to watch it. She's just not interested in Top Gun. Oh, it's so good. I know. Well, I'm like, now we don't even have to go to the movies. We can watch it on Amazon.
Anthony Michael (23:48):
It comes out on Monday to buy on Blu-Ray and DVD.
Brock Ashby (23:50):
Well I'm not going to do
Anthony Michael (23:51):
That. Well you could do it on Amazon
Brock Ashby (23:52):
As well. Amazon, it was like 25 bucks to watch and I was like, I'm keen, but she wasn't keen. So I don't know. I'll have to wait until I'm, you
Anthony Michael (23:58):
Know what? I think the reason it's done so well is it's originality people. This is a pattern with movies in the last 10 years. People love familiarity. They like watching the same thing over and over.
Brock Ashby (24:10):
I don't get watching the same movie over and over again. Well
Anthony Michael (24:13):
I do that, but not
Brock Ashby (24:14):
Very often. Something
Anthony Michael (24:15):
Similar. Your Marvels and all of your dcs and all of those sort of films, they're all the same structure and same pattern every year. The top 10 highest creasing films of all time are Jurassic Parks, Harry Potter, a Fastly Furious Lord of The Rings, all those Fast and The
Brock Ashby (24:29):
Furious Man. Number 42 must be, yeah,
Anthony Michael (24:31):
Literally Menis is going to be 106 and he's still going to be driving a car to be electric in home. But yeah, I guess everyone, she's craves that familiarity. But Top Gun took something that was 36 years old and recreated that same essence, which is why everyone loved it. And now everyone I think wants to jump on their bandwagon. So you've got Beverly Hills got four out next year. You've got Indiana Jones five coming out next year. Harrison Ford is 78 and he like the trailer. He looks incredible in it. So yeah, everyone just craves familiarity. I think that's why everyone's so content and comfortable just sitting at home watching Netflix.
Brock Ashby (25:06):
Yeah, it's really
Anthony Michael (25:07):
Bad,
Brock Ashby (25:07):
Isn't it? I am with you on living your own movie type of thing. Me and Kiki have been talking about that for a while now. We're like, we'll sit down and, well, we don't have a dinner table at this, so we're usually just at this house, so we usually just sit down and put our dinner on this table and just put TV on stuff.
Anthony Michael (25:24):
That's fine. I have a dinner table, but I ate it on the couch.
Brock Ashby (25:27):
But we have dinner early, so like five, and then it's like we're not going to watch TV from five till nine. I kind sit there on my phone, I'm posting content and writing captions and all this kind of stuff, but we just sit there and watch it and then after a while we just look at each other. We're like, should we just turn this off?
Anthony Michael (25:41):
It's just in the background,
Brock Ashby (25:43):
But it's just too much. Sometimes you just sit there and it's just so easy to, it feels like you're not experiencing anything. You're obviously living through other experiences.
Anthony Michael (25:53):
I actually unplugged the aerial from my television in 2007 and it's not been plugged in since. Because I used to come home from work, sit in front of the TV for two hours to unwind and do nothing. And I'd be watching endless crap ads shows I don't even want to watch just because I needed to unwind. I sat there and went, this is two hours of my day. Every day I could be utilising either go in the gym or doing something productive that I want to do with my life.
Brock Ashby (26:16):
Well, you have so many things to do, so many things to do. We can't even keep up with the amount of things that you're doing. And we were literally just talking about this. You have a lot of mates and you see all your friends and stuff like that. And I was saying, yeah, something has to give. If you want to push certain things and you have so many things to push discipline, you have discipline. Discipline. That's why I can't sit there and watch TV for ages. I literally get this voice inside of my head. It's quite hard to fight. And it's like, do this or
Anthony Michael (26:45):
You to, you can just
Brock Ashby (26:46):
Procrastinate or go and edit this or go write this programme or go write this email. I'm like, oh, okay. I'm kind of like a slave to the voice. Oh, okay. Just because I've made that habit of doing it. But yeah, it's so easy just to sit there and just blob out.
Anthony Michael (26:58):
Dude, James Cameron just recently said, because avatars coming out in December and he's like,
Brock Ashby (27:03):
By the way, I'm so excited for that. I can't wait. That's my favourite movie of all time. Is it really? Yeah, avatar.
Anthony Michael (27:08):
You need to watch Top Gun. It's better than Avatar. And it's actually in the top five highest grossing films of all time now. Top Gun?
Brock Ashby (27:15):
Yeah. Oh, I thought it was the biggest
Anthony Michael (27:17):
Top. No, it's top five of all time domestic in the states that it's, but anyway, he came out and said Avatar two is two hours, 55 minutes.
Brock Ashby (27:24):
So in, and
Anthony Michael (27:25):
He was like, I don't care how long it is. He's like, if you can sit down and watch Stranger Things in one night and binge it, you can sit down and watch my movie. That's three hours.
Brock Ashby (27:34):
People give seven hours in
Anthony Michael (27:36):
A day. They do.
Brock Ashby (27:37):
I'm calling in sick. And then I'm like, oh, what'd you do? They're watch
Anthony Michael (27:40):
Seven Hours of Stranger
Brock Ashby (27:41):
Like, oh, just watched about six seasons. I'm
Anthony Michael (27:43):
Literally what? Each episode of Stranger Things was like an hour 20 this season. So if someone can sit down and do that, they can watch a three hour movie at the cinema. It's not that hard. But yeah, I don't watch TV anymore and I barely watch Netflix and I don't normally put anything on in the background to do something. I'll personally sit down and actually watch it. But I have five or six friends come around every week and we watch a movie or two, one or two nights a week. We sit there, as soon as it starts, everyone gets their phone out. I'm like, I pause it and go drop the damn phones, put your phones down. They're like, I'm like, have you seen
Brock Ashby (28:15):
This? You should bring a safe. I
Anthony Michael (28:16):
Should should know. Put it in the safe a lockbox. It's a great idea.
Brock Ashby (28:19):
Yeah, put it on a timer for the amount of them. So
Anthony Michael (28:22):
Normally when you do dinner, it's the first person to touch their phone pace for dinner. I should do that with a movie.
Brock Ashby (28:27):
But you have to create something, make it fun. First person that has to grab it has to do something. Yes.
Anthony Michael (28:33):
Run around the street or
Brock Ashby (28:34):
Watch it naked.
Anthony Michael (28:36):
Don't watch it naked. My God, that could be dreadful. I look like et naked. It's all you're like,
Brock Ashby (28:40):
Don't grab the phone. Don't grab the phone,
Anthony Michael (28:41):
Don't do it. But yeah, I guess I just back to the travelling thing, as much as going to all these places I wanted to, for the monuments, the older I've gotten, I want to go to these places for the food. I want to experience the different cultures, the different types of food. Because as much as we have our own version of Italian and Australian, Japanese, Korean, all of that, I've been to all those countries and it's nothing like what we have here in Australia. It's our version of it. Whereas,
Brock Ashby (29:10):
Well, we think Japanese food is like sushi.
Anthony Michael (29:13):
They don't barely even eat sushi. In Japan. It's all luxes and rums.
Brock Ashby (29:18):
A lot of noodles.
Anthony Michael (29:19):
Lots of noodles. Italy, the food, the pizzas are so different. The bases is so different to what you get here. So yeah, I think travelling for me now has become, yes, I want to go to the place, but I also want to experience the food.
Brock Ashby (29:32):
Yeah, I think we've gotten so used to experiencing things through the TV screen, we have feels, it almost satisfies that thing you watch. I don't know, what was that one? It was like Emily in Paris or something like that. Emily in
Anthony Michael (29:45):
Paris.
Brock Ashby (29:46):
I unfortunately had to watch that because my wife,
Anthony Michael (29:49):
What did you think
Brock Ashby (29:49):
Into it? I hated it. I thought that was literally, but
Anthony Michael (29:54):
For French people, they did. They hated it. But for us, people who were tourists that go to France or Paris, they loved that.
Brock Ashby (30:02):
But also for me, potentially you could feel, oh, I went to Paris. Or like, oh, I know what, well,
Anthony Michael (30:08):
During Covid we
Brock Ashby (30:08):
Did, yeah. Oh, I know what it looks like and stuff. But it's like, I think it's almost trapping us in this whole ready play, a one thing where we just sit there and when VR comes out and everyone's sitting there with goggles on, it's going to be even worse. It
Anthony Michael (30:21):
Is going to be ready play one.
Brock Ashby (30:22):
Yeah,
Anthony Michael (30:22):
The Metaverse and Facebook. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (30:24):
Well you can actually walk around these sites and be there and people are there because that's when they shot it type of thing. But
Anthony Michael (30:31):
People do that now. You'll go somewhere and go, this was shot here, let's get a photo at the same place that they shot at. Instead of just going there and experiencing the history and culture, they want to go there. Oh, this movie was shot on this street, on this bridge. And they'll go get a photo and that's their documentation of it, which is fun if that's what you want to do. I've done that. I'm guilty of it, but I also want to learn about the place I'm going to as well. And the history,
Brock Ashby (30:52):
I just think in general, I think people need to do a little bit more in terms of not trying to make your life busier and stuff like that, but I guess be more intentional with their time.
Anthony Michael (31:02):
I don't think you've really discover who you are as a person fully to your full potential until you've maybe gone and travelled by yourself and got out of your comfort zone, pushed your boundaries. I've never been to London and I got on a plane at 22 and just moved there. I had a couple of friends that lived there, but I just moved there and the first month I was like, what the hell have I done? This place is a shit hole. Why have I moved here? And then after about two, three months, I was like, okay, I'm getting used to it. And now it's like a second home. I love it so much. I think travelling is one of the best things you could ever do for your soul.
Brock Ashby (31:35):
Yeah, I think I haven't travelled as much as you, so I don't think I can say that. But you still travelled.
Anthony Michael (31:39):
That's a bonus.
Brock Ashby (31:40):
I think that travelling, what travelling has done for you. I think moving out of home and paying your own bills. Yes,
Anthony Michael (31:48):
Yes.
Brock Ashby (31:48):
Working a job, doing all this stuff is so important. You learn so much, you become a different person. It forces you. And I think when you stay at home, it's almost like a disservice to yourself because you don't grow.
Anthony Michael (31:59):
But I've got friends, lots of friends in London and a lot of them during Covid had to move back in with their parents because work situation, they'd been made redundant to lost their job. Some people here might say, well that's ridiculous. Why would you go back and live with your parents at 35 or 45? But you've got Europe on the doorstep, two hours, you're on a train to Paris for hour 50. You're on a flight to Italy, you've got Europe. You go for a weekend, you just go wait for a weekend to Italy or Greece or Turkey or whatever it may be here in Sydney, let's go to Newcastle or let's go down to the southern beaches, whatever for the weekend or whatever it is. You're staying in the same country, the same culture. Whereas over there it's much more accessible, so it's not frowned upon as much. But by having all those different countries in different languages, you're still pushing yourself to go to a country that you're not familiar with. And if you can't speak the language, you've just got to wing it. What's the best part? Get lost.
Brock Ashby (32:49):
Yeah. What's the best thing that you've learned from travelling, you think? How do you think you grew when you first travelled? I
Anthony Michael (32:57):
Think
Brock Ashby (32:58):
Like you said, you went to London and it was like a shit hole, but it would've changed you.
Anthony Michael (33:03):
It made me appreciate where I was from home more. It made me realise how lucky I have it here in Australia. But at the same time, it also made me realise how much I'm missing out on in my life. And I've got friends that are thirties, fifties, forties, that have never been out of the country. They've never left Australia. A couple have never even left the state of Queensland. And I just go, how do you know what you want from life or anything until you've gone and experienced other cultures? I think from a very young age, when you've got kids, I think it's the most important thing to do is to get on a plane and just go and explore, get lost, have fun. That's the experience of it all. You can do that here, but it's not the same.
Brock Ashby (33:44):
Yeah, my brother would always say to me that I was not small minded. He would say, you just need to see more places. You don't have an experience of culture. And I was like, culture, man. I was just like, let's just work hard and I just want to put my head down and that's not a bad thing. And I learned a lot from applying myself and working hard. But I also, when I first went, so I had a big realisation when I first went to Bali. Yes. I was like, it's the first time I'd been
Anthony Michael (34:11):
A third world
Brock Ashby (34:12):
Country almost. Yeah. I was
Anthony Michael (34:13):
Shocked
Brock Ashby (34:15):
You there. I was shocked at the amount of people that were trying to steal my bag. When I got the airport trying to get me in their car, I was like, no, I'm looking for a sign that says Brock.
(34:24):
But just seeing the stray dogs, the people on the side of the road, when my brother, I was like, man, I need petrol for the scooter. And he's like, it's on the side of the road's. And I was like, I can't see anything that looks like a fuel station. It's just bottles. And he was like, no, no, no. And I was like, mate, those are vodka bottles, absolute vodka. And he said, that's the fuel. It's the fuel. And I was like, well, how much is it? And I was asking him bucks. And he goes, you have to ask because it's always different. Sometimes I'll get it for seven, sometimes five, 10,
Anthony Michael (34:51):
I might rip you off. He's never been here before. Exactly. Let's do it. So
Brock Ashby (34:55):
They were like, oh, it's this. And I said, oh, my brother said it's this. And then he goes, oh yeah, okay, I can do that. And I was like, this is so dodgy. But just the struggle that people interface. We would have a driver all day and he would sit in the car and just wait. And I used to ask him, what are you going to do? And he's like, I'll just sit here. And I was like, man.
Anthony Michael (35:15):
But that's the thing. You look at us here, if we don't have a seven 11 or Woolworths rock, Coles or an ELD nearby, oh God, I got in there, get in the car, I've got to drive there now. This is shit over there. They don't have anything. They live in a small little four by four tent or a tin shack and they give up a resort to entertain you and feed you and let you have drinks and massages and everything to earn next to no money. But that's their culture. They love to welcome people and be hospitable. Same with Fiji, Vietnam as well. My friends were like, you're not going to Vietnam. I said, yeah, I haven't gone for two, three weeks. They're like, it's not for you. You're not going to like it. It's the third world country. You're going to hate it. This is before I'd been to Bali. So I went to Vietnam four years ago and they're like, you're going to hate it. It's third world. Within five minutes of getting out of the airport, there was people, bikes everywhere. It was mental. And I was like, this is so awesome. And after two days
Brock Ashby (36:07):
Probably the roads there are just nuts. It was nuts.
Anthony Michael (36:09):
You would see a motorbike go past you like 80 ks now, and it has a baby, a six month infant on the front, the woman's holding and a child on the back. And you're like, how? But it's their way of life. It's their way of living. And they're so hospitable and they love welcoming people into their lives. So a third world country will shock you if you've never been.
Brock Ashby (36:26):
Yeah, it gave me the deepest sense of gratitude. I already had a gratitude practise. I'd wake up and say, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for that. But when I went there and actually saw it, I understood what my brother said. You can say that you're grateful, but to actually be in a place where you experie gratitude, I don't have that. Or I don't have to work that hard where I'm living in a small house and staying in a car all day and driving a scooter with three kids on the front and doing all this stuff. But
Anthony Michael (36:55):
We get too content here and we complain about so much.
Brock Ashby (36:58):
Our problems are so, it's
Anthony Michael (37:00):
So trivial. We'd be like, oh God, the traffic's terrible today. It's going to take me 10 more minutes. It's raining. It's raining. You're alive, you've woken up. I can't stress enough. I just wish everyone would relax. Just you're breathing, you've got a life. You've got a beautiful, beautiful friends partner. Maybe just be grateful for what you've got in your life because a lot more people are suffering worse than what you've got.
Brock Ashby (37:24):
Yeah. My driver y in was his name and he actually told me that there's only about four names in Bali and they just kind of choose different versions of the same name really. But anyway, he was saying it was funny. He was like, it's kind of happy Yan or Fat Yan,
Anthony Michael (37:42):
Really sad
Brock Ashby (37:43):
Y or weird Yan. It's kind of like there's four different names and they just add certain things to it. But anyway, I digress. So he was my driver from a client. He was like, oh, I have a driver. He'll drive you around and stuff. And I was like, oh, awesome. So he was driving me around and it was like $70, but he was there all day. He worked a big day, 7:00 AM to 70 pm We're going around all these different places.
Anthony Michael (38:04):
We would be wanting so much more money than that. My Uber last night was $71 from the airport
Brock Ashby (38:11):
For 30 minute drive,
Anthony Michael (38:12):
15 minutes.
Brock Ashby (38:16):
So on the last day I was staying at a hotel and he told me this story while we were driving one day that to wear something white meant so much to him because he said it's clean, it's pure.
(38:32):
And he was wearing a T-shirt that a previous of his gave him that was white. I said, oh, that's cool. Top. We were just talking. And he said, yeah, I like it because white. And I was like, what's so cool about it? He said, it's because it's clean and it's pure. So I got him this dress shirt from the hotel that I was staying at, which was super overpriced. It was like a hundred dollars. And I was like, my goodness, it's just a white shirt. Anyway, I was like, I want to give it to my driver just because he appreciated that it was white. We think I like this shirt because it looks cool, not because of the colour and the symbolism,
Anthony Michael (39:07):
The significance of it.
Brock Ashby (39:09):
And to me it was beautiful. So I was like, okay. I wanted to give him a shirt because he'd just been awesome.
Anthony Michael (39:14):
He react.
Brock Ashby (39:15):
He was so grateful. That's amazing. He was so grateful. He was like, thank you so much. I'm going to wear this to my next church service. That's awesome. When I flew back, he sent me a WhatsApp image and he had the white shirt on. That's so good. His two kids and his wife had white on and they were out of service.
Anthony Michael (39:32):
Dude, you paid it forward.
Brock Ashby (39:33):
It was so beautiful.
Anthony Michael (39:34):
You paid it forward.
Brock Ashby (39:35):
That's awesome. But he ended up taking me into his house and he showed me where he
Anthony Michael (39:40):
Lived and what was it like?
Brock Ashby (39:44):
It's hard to see how they live it. It's rough. I live in a one bedroom apartment. I complain. It's so small, but I'm like, man, they literally have a house, but
Anthony Michael (39:52):
The size of your bathroom.
Brock Ashby (39:54):
Well, it was actually a pretty decent size, but it's symbolic. They're like, this is where the grandparents stay. This is where we stay and this is where the children stay. It's quite like, and then when you move up, when you become a grandparent, you move to that side of the house and it was, but then
Anthony Michael (40:10):
Guests, we go over there and we get put up in a five star resort.
Brock Ashby (40:12):
Exactly, man. Yeah, it's crazy. Just the difference of the lifestyles that you can live. But yeah, he took me to his house and then he took me out for dinner. That's amazing. Nice. We went to a place and we had problems. He would've loved that. And I met his kids and we were playing on the beach. I have all this photos. It was so beautiful. And that gave me even more gratitude. I was like, mate, this guy is the happiest dude in the world. He literally made 70 bucks today. He got a white shirt and he's on cloud night, but he got
Anthony Michael (40:37):
More than 70 bucks. He got a friend.
Brock Ashby (40:38):
Yeah, I love that guy. I still send him messages. That's cool.
Anthony Michael (40:41):
Yeah, I have still my driver on WhatsApp. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (40:44):
He's really good. And he posts on Instagram. I'm like, yeah, man. I'm so happy to see people travelling with him because it means that he's making money. Well,
Anthony Michael (40:51):
They're so happy to have tourists come back. And while I know one of my friends was recently there, just as they opened up the borders in the first week, and Bali barely had any motorbikes. No one walking or driving around the streets. So it's good that tourism is back there because the people need that. They really do. Otherwise they've got no means to live. No way of making money.
Brock Ashby (41:11):
Yeah, it's tricky. It was the same in Fiji. I'll have to mention this and then we'll have to do the last three questions to wrap it up because we are asked. I will get beaten in the car by my wife. Oh my
Anthony Michael (41:20):
Goodness. Don't want that.
Brock Ashby (41:22):
But when I was in Fiji, he was saying I was on a catamaran with my wife and we were going to the Mama Manuka Islands and it was amazing. It was a gorgeous day. And we were out there and one of the guys came up and all of them were saying to me, you play rugby.
Anthony Michael (41:41):
It was the size of you. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (41:42):
I was like, oh yeah. I used to like, oh yeah, you like the All Blacks.
(41:46):
Yeah. So anyway, we were chatting and he was like, how was Covid for you? I was like, oh, it wasn't the best. I said, luckily I was still able to work. My wife was able to work, but I think it was very hard for some people. But I said, but the government did okay for us. Then I said, how was it for you? And he goes, it was very hard. He said that he had to send his, so he lived in the main city, which is Suva, and he sent his family back to the village where they were born because he didn't have enough money to support the rent. And he lost his job because the tourism. Yeah, it stopped. Everything stopped years. So he said he was literally kind of homeless for months, looking around for jobs, selling fruit on the side of the street. And then the government gave him, I think it was $360. I was like, oh, that was nice. And he said it was for five months.
Anthony Michael (42:40):
Wow.
Brock Ashby (42:41):
So he sent his family back there in the village.
Anthony Michael (42:43):
We were getting payments of seven, whatever it was
Brock Ashby (42:46):
Here. There is people making more money than they were previously on what, 750 a week or something like that. And just squandering it and having no gratitude at all. And then there's this guy in Fiji who's literally homeless, sending his family back to go live in a farm while he's hustling out there trying to get a job. And he said that even now when he's working, his pay is getting deducted because the country's still in the red. Yeah, because they're trying pay that back. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. Not the country. The company's in the red because they're not having any profit yet, so they're still trying to get out of the red. So he's like, yeah man, he's just, I'm just so happy that you're here. And I was like, that's amazing. And he's like, if you want to help, just come back to Fiji.
Anthony Michael (43:23):
But I mean, I knew of people here that earn six figures a year and because their business was shut down, they were getting seven 50 a week from the government. I worked right through Covid. I didn't get any money. I just got paid my normal job. So everything was backwards.
Brock Ashby (43:36):
Countries
Anthony Michael (43:37):
Like that where there's no support,
Brock Ashby (43:39):
It's horrible. I felt so bad after seeing that can was hard. I was like, can I take that back? You
Anthony Michael (43:44):
Should have asked him the question first. Yes.
Brock Ashby (43:46):
You go first, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, let's go to the last three questions because I got to jump off soon. Go
Anthony Michael (43:50):
For it.
Brock Ashby (43:51):
Question number one. What is something that you do every day that helps you become a better person?
Anthony Michael (44:00):
I have a to-do list, which I write every month. And at the moment it's probably got 50 or 60 things on there. And every day I try and make sure I at least work on one of my to-do lists to tick off. And by doing that I, I'm not procrastinating or wasting time. I'm moving forward to ticking my goals off. So to me, that's bettering myself and bettering where I want to be.
Brock Ashby (44:24):
And what sort of things do you put on there? You don't have to tell us specific things, but what's some things?
Anthony Michael (44:28):
I've got a feature film that I'm writing at the moment. I'm trying to finish the script. I'd like to do a gallery of all my work that like my travel photography, because no one ever really gets to see that apart from on my website. So I'd like to do that. Fitness goals, I think I've had them for about 20 years and I'm still not ticking them off. So slowly, day by day walks changing things. It's all about discipline, changing my mindset. So yeah, to-do list for me.
Brock Ashby (44:51):
Do you get overwhelmed with 50 or 60 things? I find that when I make the list too big, you can see the whiteboard over there in the corner. Yes.
Anthony Michael (44:59):
There's five things on it.
Brock Ashby (45:00):
Yeah. But there was 10. Sometimes you put too much on there and it's scary. Well, I
Anthony Michael (45:04):
Do a different one every month, but sometimes there might be small things like clean your room, make
Brock Ashby (45:09):
Your bed so important, hang out the washing. It's so hard to work with a dirty room,
Anthony Michael (45:12):
Whatever. I can't do a dirty
Brock Ashby (45:13):
Room, messy room, messy
Anthony Michael (45:14):
Life. I say it and I've got the messiest room at the moment, but I just,
Brock Ashby (45:16):
Messy room, messy life. Take that home.
Anthony Michael (45:18):
That's exactly right. But yeah, but it could be little things. Read a book, finish 10 pages of this, whatever it is, I've got to write it. I've got to get it all out. Otherwise, it just keeps going on in my mind while I'm trying to do other things at the same time. So to-do list is the big thing for me to-do
Brock Ashby (45:33):
List. Yeah. One book that has made you a better person.
Anthony Michael (45:36):
You know what? I don't read that many books. I think because when I read a book, I start on a page and I read that, go to the next page. I've just forgotten that last page.
Brock Ashby (45:44):
I do that too, but I still enjoy books. You do?
Anthony Michael (45:47):
It takes me so long to get through a book, but I have started doing audiobooks in recent times and my friend, well,
Brock Ashby (45:52):
Everyone learns different, man. So that could be a better opportunity
Anthony Michael (45:55):
For you
Brock Ashby (45:55):
To digest
Anthony Michael (45:56):
Knowledge. I take it. I definitely hold it in there. So my friend Nick b Brax wrote a book called Move Your Mind. There's also got a podcast in that book. He recently released it.
Brock Ashby (46:04):
I think you told me about him last time. Yeah,
Anthony Michael (46:06):
I did. He did an audio book on the book and it's an amazing book. So that was a good way of disciplining myself. I liked it. Very good book. Highly recommend
Brock Ashby (46:16):
It. What did you learn and move your mind?
Anthony Michael (46:20):
So many people are stuck in the past dwelling on things that have happened in their life and why they got to the point they're at now and not concentrating on the present or the future because you're too buried up in the past. So I guess the best way to move forward with your life is concentrate on now and realise every experience that you've had has put you in the place you're in today. So take the knowledge that all the pain you've gone through or everything and grow from that pain means you're going.
Brock Ashby (46:46):
How do you forget something that is in the past that you feel like is hard to drop? Because I know what I would say to that person, but I'd be interesting to hear, be interested to hear what you would encourage people to do in that time. A lot
Anthony Michael (46:59):
Of people can't be by themselves. They have to constantly be doing something. They're not happy in their own company. If it was me, I would say to that person, you need to become comfortable in your own company before you can go and deal with everything that you've gone through or are going through. I think if you are comfortable, if you're in your own skin, you look at people that go to a restaurant and eat by themselves, you're like, oh, that's so sad. No, it's not. I think it's
Brock Ashby (47:22):
Beautiful. I know someone who does that and he's the happiest man ever. Takes I so much. I'm like, you are the man.
Anthony Michael (47:28):
That's true.
Brock Ashby (47:29):
He's even posting it on Facebook and Instagram. He's like, yeah, boy, look
Brock Ashby (47:33):
At these oysters.
Brock Ashby (47:34):
And I'm like, go you
Anthony Michael (47:35):
Man. Yeah, dude. It's the most powerful thing. I've travelled the whole world by myself. I've met friends overseas, but I've done it all by myself every time, and I think it's the greatest reward I could ever have is to be comfortable my skin. And it took me until I was 31 to get there, and now nothing can break me. It's great.
Brock Ashby (47:51):
Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. I think one thing I'd quickly add to that is I think expressing yourself at that time, whatever that emotion is, I think it's important to do that talk. Yeah. Or even just express. So for me to quickly touch on what happened when I was younger, mum, my mom passing away, I cried so much. But the thing is, I didn't stop it. I just cried it out. I cried with my dad, cried with my brother. That was normal. Yeah.
Anthony Michael (48:18):
That's your grieving process.
Brock Ashby (48:19):
I cried with my mentors. I cried so much. Even when I was 14, 16. It took me so long, but now I probably couldn't cry because I've cried so many tears about it. But I've dealt with it. I'm like, I don't care if anyone makes fun of my mom, makes fun of me about anything. It makes me so resilient because I've dealt with it. But if you don't, it still has power over you. You really need to express it all. So it's like almost you're free flowing out of it. Anyway, that's why I would add to it quickly. Last one. Sure. We're trying to push this a little bit quicker. So last question. What is one quote that makes you a better person? I love quotes.
Anthony Michael (48:56):
Quotes. Oh God, I've got so many quotes and I'm trying to think of one right
Brock Ashby (49:00):
Now. Or top three.
Anthony Michael (49:01):
Top three. I'd love to grab my phone, but I can't. It's filming. Oh yeah. Oh mate, you've got me on the quotes.
Brock Ashby (49:11):
Yeah. Would you want me to share one while you think about it? Please do. Okay, let me show you. So I read many quotes in the morning. I haven't got one in my head. I literally did a podcast a couple of days ago and I used it all. Sorry, let me just find it. Yeah, keep thinking.
Anthony Michael (49:33):
Don't get bad, get even. Oh God, I'm useless with quotes. I've got so many that I love and they've all escaped my mind right now.
Brock Ashby (49:43):
Really? It sounds like you've got none.
Anthony Michael (49:44):
Thank you. Appreciate that. It's been pleasure. Goodbye.
Brock Ashby (49:49):
Oh man. Yeah, I have many too. I read these every day, but
Anthony Michael (49:54):
There is an Instagram page that I follow, which is purely just a saying, and then it comes with a paragraph of words and it's the most incredible Instagram account. And sometimes I screenshot and I print that page out and put it on my vision board so I can look at it every day. I love stuff like that.
Brock Ashby (50:10):
That's good, mate. So I love one, and I put this in one of my motivational emails that I send out. I'm actually on email 9 9, 9.
Anthony Michael (50:20):
Yeah. Really?
Brock Ashby (50:23):
My next email is going to be my 1000th email. No,
Anthony Michael (50:27):
I think I've got over 500 of them. I do. You bro's got some of them. No, I've never subscribed, bro.
Brock Ashby (50:33):
Leave me alone.
Anthony Michael (50:35):
I dunno how you come up with the content to write every day.
Brock Ashby (50:37):
A thousand emails.
Anthony Michael (50:38):
It blows my mind.
Brock Ashby (50:38):
Yeah, man. Well done. Okay, so here's I'll say two to give you some time to think. Sure.
Anthony Michael (50:43):
Thank you.
Brock Ashby (50:45):
And this is from the Bible. I love this. Ever since I went to church and stuff, the power of the tongue is life and death. Those who love to talk will eat what it produces. I love that. Love that. I love that because I wanted to bring this into my life and say it every day because I found that it's so easy to gossip and it's so easy to say how shit things are, but you eat what that produces a hundred percent. So the more you say that, the more that's going to manifest in your life. So I really love that for trying to be positive.
Anthony Michael (51:11):
That's the same with body shame. People go look fat. If you keep saying that, it's never going to change. You'll
Brock Ashby (51:16):
Never change. Well, it's so hard when you tell yourself that story. Yeah. So this one is, I love this one. A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.
Anthony Michael (51:30):
I like
Brock Ashby (51:30):
That. It's not really relevant to anything, but it's No, but I like it. It's more so about paying a fort and thinking about others before yourself and knowing that that effect may not be felt. Yes, you are still paying a fort. I see it as just being generous and
Anthony Michael (51:44):
Open
Brock Ashby (51:45):
And not expecting anything. It's not like, oh, I'm doing this to receive this. You're like, I'm just doing this so that people have a better, I suppose I'm going to experience that in fatherhood and you're just like, you're doing things because you want them to have a better life.
Anthony Michael (51:56):
Yeah. You're also going to want to turn into one of those people that takes a billion photos of their child and plastered all over Facebook. It's
Brock Ashby (52:01):
Hilarious. I was actually joking about that with Kiki. Creating a baby Instagram. Isn't my
Anthony Michael (52:05):
Instagram cute? Oh my God. It's the hottest baby. The cutest baby in the world. Everyone says about their child
Brock Ashby (52:10):
Or creating an Instagram account like their name. And ours,
Anthony Michael (52:14):
I have a friend though that
Brock Ashby (52:15):
Sent and they post their, it's the baby writing the caption. Like, see guys, it's my first birthday. I'm like,
Anthony Michael (52:21):
The baby has no idea what you're talking about. I've got a friend. I'm not going to say which one. They're like, my baby is the most adorable baby in the world. Then you look at the child and you go, oh my God, it's, it's so funny where they do, they plaster photos all over Facebook. I've had to unfollow a few of my friends
Brock Ashby (52:39):
Just because Notorious too, my
Anthony Michael (52:40):
Stuff. You're are still friends Just unfollow like mute.
Brock Ashby (52:45):
But I
Anthony Michael (52:45):
Think so. I don't see their posts.
Brock Ashby (52:47):
I think
Anthony Michael (52:48):
I don't want to look at babies and all my feet. All my friends have children. They're all married with kids. Hello.
Brock Ashby (52:52):
I just think don't want to see that. But
Anthony Michael (52:55):
You're about to be what? But
Brock Ashby (52:56):
Also no. Okay. I'm not talking about babies. I'm just talking about people's content. I'm like, sometimes I just enjoy the person, but I don't enjoy their content. True. I don't care about what you care about, but I care about you.
Anthony Michael (53:06):
Mute it. Don't unfollow, just
Brock Ashby (53:09):
Mute. Unfollow is a bit harsh. Yeah.
Anthony Michael (53:10):
Unfollow. You're dead to me. You're harsh. How could you do that
Brock Ashby (53:13):
To me? I've done that to a lot of people. Really.
Anthony Michael (53:14):
I followed someone the other day and then two days later they messaged and go, did you follow me Instagram? And I'm like, must be an algorithm to know what you're talking about. And I was like, wow, you don't talk to them for three years and then they message you two days after you unfollow them. People
Brock Ashby (53:27):
Are so
Anthony Michael (53:27):
Impacted. I've got my quote. Yes.
Brock Ashby (53:29):
Quickly because I've got
Anthony Michael (53:30):
To go. Time is a companion which follows us on a journey and reminds us to cherish every moment. It'll never come again. That's one of my favourite quotes. I like that. Sayings of more than a quote, I guess. Can you say that one more time? Is a companion which follows us on a journey and reminds us to cherish every moment because it will never come again because we're a not immortal.
Brock Ashby (53:50):
I like it.
Anthony Michael (53:50):
Yeah. Well that's one of my favourite ones that I love.
Brock Ashby (53:53):
Let's end it on that.
Anthony Michael (53:54):
Done
Brock Ashby (53:54):
Anthony. Appreciate it, man. Thanks. We'll have to do this again when we have more than 50 minutes.
Anthony Michael (53:57):
Yeah, we'll do it in season six. Sounds great. See you man. Thanks buddy. Take care.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 25 of the Better with Brock podcast, and I'm here with the legend Radford, who is a client of mine, one of the busiest men that I know. And yeah, we've been working together for over 64 weeks now. Well, that's on the record. I guess it's been slightly longer with some holidays thrown in there to see some volcanoes and all that type of stuff. But give us a little bit of an intro of, I don't want this to be a podcast of this is what happened when I worked with Brock, because that can be quite stale. Although I would love to touch on your progress because it's amazing what you've achieved at 62 years old, but a bit of intro of maybe what you do, where you're from, where you've been, I know you've spent time in Australia and Yeah, just a bit of that.
Radford Slough (00:00:52):
Okay, so born in rural Mississippi, actually in a college town. My father was an instructor, little toot for him. He'd been to Texas a and m, he went to Mississippi State, got a business degree, but his goal and what he was working on was actually, he founded the farm raised catfish business in the United States. And so we moved to the middle of nowhere to form the largest catfish farm in the world, and I grew up there, finished all that, ended up going back to school to the same place. Lots of stories there that I won't go into because I could probably be arrested for that, but got a degree in computer science and a degree in business and started a almost 20 year career, part of which led me to Australia. Lived in Australia before you were born 1987 to 89 and had a blast still connected, going back in April of 2023 and spend a couple of weeks visiting with friend, maybe hopefully meet up with you as well.
Brock Ashby (00:02:04):
Of course, we'd love to get a workout in and get some good Australian coffee. In
Radford Slough (00:02:07):
Other words, I'm going to be sore, so there we go. Okay, I got it. I got it. And moved to Atlanta. When I got tired of the IT business, I wanted to be in an airport where I could fly anywhere in the world without any issues. So did that. My gym was being evicted. It was very poorly run, and the minority business partner said, could we buy him out? And you be my majority partner now. And well after six months of trying to make that happen, because there was a lot of issues with the majority owner, most of them drug related. So it was a problem and we did it and four months later, an LA Fitness opened up, which we knew was going to happen, but we didn't realise it was going to have a big impact. It opened up like nine blocks away and all of a sudden 50% of our membership disappeared. And so we started over rebranded it as a neighbourhood gym. It had been a predominantly gay gym. And
Brock Ashby (00:03:12):
What's the name of the gym if you want to name it?
Radford Slough (00:03:15):
Well, we renamed it from PE Midtown, which I really liked. That was a good name for a gym, but we called it Urban Body Fitness in June of this year, 2022, we celebrated 20 years.
Brock Ashby (00:03:31):
Amazing.
Radford Slough (00:03:32):
And a big move we had to move our parking lot was a sublet from the railroad company and the city bought it and turned it into a running path around the city, and so we lost a hundred of our parking spaces.
Brock Ashby (00:03:51):
Have you? So
Radford Slough (00:03:51):
We moved.
Brock Ashby (00:03:52):
Oh, okay. Yeah. So where are you now? That
Radford Slough (00:03:54):
Was 11 years ago.
Brock Ashby (00:03:56):
Yeah. Wow. So through all this kind of, yeah, that's a huge journey. I guess I did want to touch on running a gym and what that's like, but I do have a question before that in terms of, I don't know too much about Catfish, but what are Catfish farmed for?
Radford Slough (00:04:19):
We literally raise catfish from egg to cutting 'em, filleting them and selling 'em in the stores here in the US Catfish, especially pond raised catfish. It's a very light, fluffy tilapia. I think y'all have tilapia down in Australia, and it's very much like tilapia.
Brock Ashby (00:04:41):
Okay, so you eat it? Yeah. I was wondering because I've just seen videos online where people kind of stuck their hand in the mud and catch a catfish, and I was like, okay, is it just for sport? Is it just for fun?
Radford Slough (00:04:52):
No, no, no. This was food service. Actually, a very big company called ConAgra, which y'all have ConAgra products through all the different brands. Bought the company actually. That's how it ended up going out of our hands and being run by another company.
Brock Ashby (00:05:10):
Right, okay. So there's been business through your family, through your blood since you were young?
Radford Slough (00:05:15):
Yep, growing up. Oh, I've remodelled houses and done all sorts of things here, there and yawn. As you know, I've also got my fingers in the non-growing side of cannabis, so marijuana side.
Brock Ashby (00:05:31):
Yeah. So what do you do in that area? I know you're always going to conferences and I haven't really asked you. Obviously we work mainly on coaching and obviously we talk about other things and what goes on life healthy things.
Radford Slough (00:05:42):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:05:42):
Yeah. How's your training? How's your nutrition? How's your steps? How's your sleep? But yeah, explain more about I guess, what you are doing in the cannabis space.
Radford Slough (00:05:54):
Two different things. Mainly side, I'm an investor and a partner in a cannabis testing lab in Maine, and we're about to start our fundraising for Arizona, and every state has in the US right now because of the laws we have, every state is separate. And then I'm also partners in a software company that does seed to sale tracking. So the us, no matter where you are from the day AC company gets a seed to grow a marijuana plant till the time that product goes to the customer and is in their hand, you have to track that. Everything, the plant, the dirt, everything has to be tracked really. So that's what that software does.
Brock Ashby (00:06:38):
Okay. So is that done through photo video, writing down records? It's probably much more
Radford Slough (00:06:44):
Advanced. This is all written record, this is all written record. Each state varies on what kind of video records, but normally I only have to keep about six months, so we don't do any of that. There are other companies, some really good ones. At one point I was thinking about doing a growing licence here in Georgia, and I investigated it, which is how I actually found all these companies because we don't have a testing lab, but one, we have one now here in Georgia, but the market is because of all the lawsuits, it still hasn't actually started until actually three weeks ago they finally issued two of those six licences.
Brock Ashby (00:07:24):
Okay. Yeah, obviously I don't know too much about it. I haven't experienced any myself. I've been around it I guess growing up. But from the conferences you've been going to, I know they may be related to more sales or marketing software and stuff like that, but
Radford Slough (00:07:46):
Actually medical,
Brock Ashby (00:07:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Radford Slough (00:07:48):
Medical mine's all medical side.
Brock Ashby (00:07:50):
Okay. So would you or could you give us maybe anywhere between maybe two to four positive ways to incorporate it in people's lives, if that would be the case or from a medical perspective? Because I've heard things and most people have probably heard things like it's this and it's that, but I'd love to hear it from you since you are so deep into it. I
Radford Slough (00:08:16):
Can give you one personal and one from all the conferences I've been to, and this goes back into training. I've had two meniscus repairs on one knee and one on the other. And I've got two discs that have ruptured in my lower back. You and I have worked around some of that training. Well, it doesn't mean they don't hurt. They do. And frequently, sometimes badly. So we use a balal spelled BALM, not BOMB. Got to be careful what you say in the airport. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:08:50):
Yeah, that's right. Bomb.
Radford Slough (00:08:52):
Yeah. But with certain brands of types of it, and it matters what the base is, and then you put THC in it and it's a painkiller and it's a fantastic painkiller. So that helps when my back goes into spasm. The other big medical use is cancer patients. I mean, say you have throat cancer, well, you can't swallow anything, so you don't smoke anything, obviously. So you're not smoking your medicine. That's what they call it on the medical side. You put it in a lozenge and you suck on it and let the syrupy sugar and THC go down your throat and it acts as a fantastic painkiller while you're going through a chemo treatment on throat cancer. So that's just some examples of you can smoke it for anxiety and things like that. Some people, it works really, really, really well, and some people it just makes your anxiety worse, so
Brock Ashby (00:09:52):
Everybody's different. Yeah, I've definitely heard that as well. So when you were saying that my ears pricked up, I was like, well, some people that do drugs recreationally say that, oh, when I took marijuana, it just made me tired or more anxious, and they were kind of not paranoid. Yeah, yeah, paranoid. So I was like, oh, that's interesting. So amongst these uses, are there any side effects
Radford Slough (00:10:20):
To Yeah, that's a long list. It can be. Most of them are,
Brock Ashby (00:10:25):
I'm sorry to jump in. I guess I'm just trying to paint a picture of pros and cons as opposed to everyone just go and get it, just
Radford Slough (00:10:32):
Oh no, and everybody's going to react differently as you'll hear later on. I'm big into genetics, whether it's hereditary side or how medicines work or don't for you, COVID being one of those more recent ones. So there's two types of, generically speaking, you've got hybrids of course, but you've got indica, which tends to make you more sedative. So that's the ones that makes you the couch potato and give you the munchies. And then you've got sativa, which is the more energetic version. Yes, it has a calming effect, but it tends not to make you the couch potato. Obviously any of it in large quantity is going to make you a couch potato. I mean, that's really what it's going to do, but sativa in the proper dosing really makes a difference that way. Now that's adult use or medical, I mean in either case. And some people react to indica style differently than sativa style. I've used indica gummies as a replacement for melatonin to help me sleep.
Brock Ashby (00:11:43):
Makes
Radford Slough (00:11:44):
A
Brock Ashby (00:11:44):
Difference. Have you found it to be effective?
Radford Slough (00:11:47):
Oh yeah. I am out and it's almost like being drunk. If you got to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, I'm holding onto the wall because I feel very drunk, but it's a super sound sleep. The effects wear off really quickly and that's why they use it. Oils in particular with kids with seizures, it is amazing with people with epilepsy and types of seizures like that. It is amazing to
Brock Ashby (00:12:12):
Take this before they sleep or on a regular in morning,
Radford Slough (00:12:16):
Depends. It depends. It depends on how they, sometimes they get it three times a day at every meal and dropped into their food, and the food helps act as a transport. That's a whole nother story, and that gets into science and it's boring, so I won't go into that. But the oils really work. I've got actually an acquaintance. She works at the bank and her son was taking prescription stuff and then tried the THC version and she said he's like a real kid. Again, it's like all the side effects of the manmade stuff really was having a negative impact. When he went with just the THC oil, he was up in perky and he still had a 90% reduction in his seizures.
Brock Ashby (00:13:06):
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Well, that's originally where the keto diet was introduced. It was for epilepsy.
Radford Slough (00:13:14):
Oh, I didn't know
Brock Ashby (00:13:15):
That. Yeah, a lot of people dunno that it was actually originated for children with epilepsy. So I always think, and I know that nutrition is medicine, but obviously sometimes medicine can be more effective. But that is why I think personally people can't really sustain it for fat loss because it's, well, it's very challenging, but also I always think, well, it wasn't made for fat loss. It was made to help people with epilepsy. If you have to do it, you have to do it, so you're going to do it. When you're in that place, it's going to be more sustainable because you're quite desperate in that time to get better. But anyway, I digress. I do have a question though, because a company sent me some CBD gummies and
Radford Slough (00:14:04):
I'm an investor in a CBD company.
Brock Ashby (00:14:08):
I can't remember what it's called. It's actually over there. I could go get it, but I took it and I slept like a rock. Right. But I always wonder because I sleep like a rock anyway, I'm like, I felt like it was a deeper sleep, but I thought, is it just placebo? Is it just I'm extra tired that day?
Radford Slough (00:14:28):
Probably real.
Brock Ashby (00:14:29):
Yeah, I think so. I haven't tried it because I don't want to develop a reliance to it or being not addicted to it. But okay, I'm going to take it. I need a good sleep because I would rather try and do it through well, that's just having control of my sleep. I would rather just sleep well without anything. Just as a general rule, supplement when you need to, but are there studies on or any kind of node on placebo versus CBD or anything like that or that you're aware of?
Radford Slough (00:15:03):
Okay, so now we have to branch into the science
Brock Ashby (00:15:08):
Just a little bit cannabis and then we'll move on. Talk about
Radford Slough (00:15:10):
That. Yeah. Cannabis is hemp and marijuana,
(00:15:15):
But hemp has below 0.03% THC in it, but it has the CB D and all the cb, h and n. It can have all these other CB molecules in it where THC is a molecule with one more branch off of it and blah, blah, blah. There's some chemical stuff that goes on there. So they're slightly different and their effects are slightly different. CB, D can help with anxiety as well works, and some people does it work in others, but generally speaking, 25 to 50 milligrammes of a CBD product will help you sleep. It helps you relax. Sometimes it helps shut your brain down a little bit so that your gerbils, as I call, aren't keeping you awake all night long while you're thinking about stuff and you just can't shut down. It just varies a lot. But it is a really interesting product. I have them here.
(00:16:17):
I use them for, the main thing it does is it reduces inflammation where THC is a painkiller, a true painkiller, CBD is a good inflammation reducer and people go, oh yeah, I took CBD and my pain went away and said, well, your pain was inflammation and it was causing pressing on the nerves or whatever. So yeah, that makes perfectly good sense to me. It's hard to, until you have a conversation with people, sometimes they don't realise that the pain can be more than one thing. You stick a needle in your hand, that's pain. If your thumb is swelling because it's got arthritis in it, it may help reduce that inflammation and reduce your pain. And topical works for some people, the mix and how it's made, it needs to be a pepper min or a menthol or something like that because both THC balms and a CBD balm need to have a transport. The molecule is ginormous and so it needs something to open the pores in your skin. So what does menthol and all these other little products, they open the pores and allows it to transport better.
Brock Ashby (00:17:29):
Got it. Nice. Yeah,
Radford Slough (00:17:31):
That was the science. That was your science lesson. There
Brock Ashby (00:17:33):
You go. Yeah. Cool. No, no, no. I got sent to Balm as well and I don't need it, but I do know someone or a couple of people that I think could potentially benefit from it. So I'm just genuinely interested in, okay, is this actually something that can help? Because there's a lot of people that say things and it's nice to hear someone that's actually been to the conferences and done the study.
Radford Slough (00:17:51):
Well, to add to that, I also lectured to the American Bar Association, which is our barrister organisation. I think that's the right word for you. Lawyers. I lectured with them on covid and on cannabis. So we've done two lecture groups already. So I sit on a panel that does that.
Brock Ashby (00:18:12):
Yeah, so we're getting it straight from the source.
Radford Slough (00:18:15):
Straight
Brock Ashby (00:18:15):
From close to the source
Radford Slough (00:18:17):
Close, close
Brock Ashby (00:18:19):
To the source. So coming back to running your gym
(00:18:23):
As someone that is frequently in gyms and seeing many gyms lived in gyms pretty much from being a personal trainer, 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM what would you say are the three most frustrating challenges that you have to deal with running a gym? Because as we talked about just before we came online, I ran the numbers once with a client and we were potentially thinking of running a gym and we ran the numbers and we were like, it's a lot of money upfront depending on how you organise it, but generally speaking, it's quite a lot of money upfront and you're not going to see a return for, I said two to five years. And you said that's relatively accurate, and that's kind of what we saw when we put the numbers through. It kind of depends on members and depends on the way what sort of gym you want to run, but generally speaking, you have to have quite a lot of cash and be quite patient and willing to see the investment run for a little while. So in saying that, what would you say are the three most frustrating challenges of running a gym? Because I saw a few just when we put the numbers in without even stepping into it and saying, okay, I'm going to take the lease on.
Radford Slough (00:19:35):
It is a lot of money. You've got to have good financial backing. I recommend when I do consulting a little bit on the side to people that are thinking about it, and my first answer is, you're going to have all your money to get started and six months of money, assuming you make $0 from the day you open the door. Now, I'm assuming your landlord is not going to ask for, you're going to get 3, 4, 6 months of free rent so you can finish out the space and get the equipment in and get it all set up, and then your rent starts. You have to assume six months. Nobody walks in that door and pays you a nickel because you've got to advertise. You've got all this other stuff and it's going to eat up all that free cash right there. Employees. You're going to work your butt off because you're going to be, you're the face.
(00:20:24):
I mean, you've got to go do, when I first took this over, I had that minority business partner. He was the face guy and he wanted to be the face guy. And I'm like, good, I'll make everything else happen. And after about six, five or six years, I bought him out and he actually is a trainer at the gym for maybe of another six months. He's also become a commercial realtor, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so money the biggest member challenge I have ever had, and there is no way to lick it. I have not come up with one, put your equipment back up and unrack your weights. Oh my god. I'm constantly going around picking stuff up and putting it back on the rack, taking stuff off. The machines members otherwise are great, and my members are higher end. I'm one of the more expensive gyms I three. How
Brock Ashby (00:21:17):
Much does your gym cost out of curiosity?
Radford Slough (00:21:20):
Well, I'm going to tell you the January, because we're doing a price, our first price increase in six years, we're doing in January. So it's 61 99 a month, cancel any time. It's monthly. So that's a $2 increase. By the way, we're 59.99 currently for a regular membership. But there's an LA Fitness, which if you're in the us, that's one of the big box gyms. It is literally three blocks from me and I have 1300 members,
(00:21:52):
And that's a good number for a 14,000 square foot, which is, what was that, 1400 square metres gym, give or take, somewhere in that neighbourhood. 13, 14, something like that. So it's fairly good size, but it's a neighbourhood gym. But we're a big neighbourhood gym. We're not to use a brand a workout anytime or fitness anytime gym. We're double or triple, maybe even quadruple that size. They tend to be really small gyms. We have multiple of everything, squat racks and all this other stuff. We have multiple of them. So that we'll have up to this week, as a matter of fact, 60 people in the gym at one time.
Brock Ashby (00:22:39):
Okay. Is that still restricted? Is there still guidelines
Radford Slough (00:22:42):
In We haven't been restricted. We weren't restricted Six weeks after Covid, we were one of the first states to open back up in the us so we were allowed to open six weeks after the shutdown. So we waited seven weeks and we started with 35 at any one time counting staff counting me, and then we slowly relax that out. So now it's 60 members at any one time, generally speaking, during our rush time.
Brock Ashby (00:23:10):
Okay, cool.
Radford Slough (00:23:11):
Which is a lot.
Brock Ashby (00:23:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one challenge that I picked up on there was the people putting their weights back. And that's just frustrating from like me being in the gym sometimes in my wrist periods, I'll put my timer on my Fitbit here, I'll put it on one minute, 30, whatever it is, and I'll just put weights away in my wrist period. Sometimes I just do it. I'm just like, I'm so frustrated because I am not going to clean the whole gym, but at least in my area, I'm going to put all the fives on one, I'm going to put all the twenties down the bottom, I'm going to put the tens there and the two point fives just to kind of, I think it says a lot about the person, but agreed, that's a conversation for another day. But I think it's kind of like the same as if you don't make your bed, now
Radford Slough (00:23:59):
You're talking
Brock Ashby (00:24:01):
Messy bed. Well, I don't
Radford Slough (00:24:02):
Have a messy life, but I don't make my bed.
Brock Ashby (00:24:04):
But I think in some cases, and I'm saying in most cases, probably not in yours, I know you're a very organised kind of have a lot of things going on in person, but I think it says a lot about the person and it frustrates me. And sometimes I wonder, what does your car look like? What does the rest of your life look like? If you can't even say you're doing dumbbells and you just leave it on the floor.
(00:24:27):
I dunno, you're a corner cutter or you're something because I feel like these little things, so I love this quote, how you do anything is how you do everything. And that's why I put my weights away. I try and hold myself to a better standard and I think people should do that anyway. Two more challenges that you can kind of just rattle off and they can be member focused. They can be just running the gym focused, I don't know. So number one, keeping tidy and making sure the gym culture is in check, putting their weights back. Well,
Radford Slough (00:24:54):
And we are noted for being the cleanest gym in the world. I mean, we really work on it. That's a big deal. Big
Brock Ashby (00:25:02):
Not just
Radford Slough (00:25:02):
Organised.
Brock Ashby (00:25:02):
It makes a big difference. It makes a big
Radford Slough (00:25:03):
Difference. But I'm talking about mopped floors and all this other, so my biggest challenge, because I just fired a cleaning company just a couple of months ago and started with a new one because they just weren't getting it clean. And my new crew is doing a really good job, so getting a good cleaning crew, so I don't want to have to be the one mopping a 14,000 square foot facility. That's huge. And it's a lot. And cleaning toilets and all this, I have done it. Don't get me wrong. When we first took over, we mopped every night. The night the closing crew was the cleaning crew. Wow. Oh yeah. That was a lot of work. It was an hour and a half and you were a sweaty mess when you were done because you were trying to get that shit done and get out the door. And I've done it before. So getting a true cleaning company that actually got it and would be consistent. I've had this crew four weeks, so eight to 12 weeks, I'll know whether they're really consistent,
Brock Ashby (00:26:06):
But they see that actually ramp. That's when the work really shows
Radford Slough (00:26:09):
Well. They seem to be ramping up, not ramping down, which is great. Still finding stuff to do. Staff is the other one. Oh my God, we're not open 24 hours a day. So we're your typical early morning five 30 and open until about nine at night. And weekends are shorter hours. But finding good staff, I've got amazing staff right now. They're not perfect, don't get me wrong, but they're there on time or early. They do their jobs. When I ask 'em to do clean up something they might not have quite right or I need to add something to their task list. It's never a complaint. This has been the best crew. I've had a lot of years, a lot of years. And consistent as is a team,
Brock Ashby (00:27:01):
Let's talk trainers.
(00:27:05):
As a personal trainer myself, being in a gym, I think I was one of the low maintenance personal trainers. I didn't really want much to do with the gym to be honest. I just wanted to do my thing. So we talked about the different models. So for the gym that I was working at, and most gyms that I was working at, they have two different models and there's a employee model where you do classes, you have gym floor hours where you walk around and help people or clean the treadmills, rearrange the weight, do what people should be doing, all that kind of stuff. So there's that employee model, and you might get somewhere between, I don't know, 20 to $30 an hour, something like that maybe. And then there's the subcontractor model where you pay a rent weekly, monthly, fortnightly, whatever it is, and you just take home all the money that you make from your clients so you have a fixed amount coming out.
(00:27:57):
And when I first started personal training in 2015 in a gym called City Fitness in Queen Street, Auckland, New Zealand, I went straight into the subcontractor model and I had a choice, but I went straight into it because I wanted to put myself up against the wall and I wanted to create a hard position because I was at the time broke. But I had belief in myself and I thought that if I really work hard, if I stay there from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM and walk the floor and take every lead and show them a good session, then I would get busy. And I did. I became the busiest trainer quite quickly and I loved it. After that time, I went to another gym and they actually didn't have the subcontractor model. They only had the employee model and my drive hit the floor. I wasn't motivated.
(00:28:45):
I didn't really enjoy the personal training sessions because I think there was no, if I work harder, I'm going to help more people or I'm going to make more money. All I did was just the same amount of hours. I did the sessions, but there was no real incentive for me. So I actually asked sometimes if I could just work reception instead of being a personal trainer. I was like, at least I get to talk to people. It's more fun. There's people around me, I get to meet people. But walking around the gym, flore as a personal trainer, cleaning and just kind of talking to the same people that went at the same time, I found myself really low in motivation. So I'm really pro the subcontractor model, and I think it lights a fire up your ass and makes you get going. And I think that's what makes a great trainer because you have to really push yourself. You have to ask people if they want help. You have to get told no. In Sydney, when I first started at Fitness First, I got told so many times, it didn't help that I was 22 years old, and the people that I was talking to were 40, 50, 60, and they were like, what does this young guy know? But yeah, the employee model and the subcontractor model. So what model do you use and what has your experience been with personal trainers?
Radford Slough (00:30:03):
Well, we do a variation off the independent contractor. In the us the rules are different. The tax rules are different. We have employee, we have independent contractor. I even go a step further because our tax service called the internet IRS. So they're trying to get rid of that independent contractor role altogether. So what we have is tenants, they literally have a lease and they pay rent, and it's worked wonderfully. During Covid, we did it as a variable based on how many people you were training, because so many people lost. Clients we're now swapping back into the fixed amount. So they pay me a fixed amount every month and they can train as many people as they want
Brock Ashby (00:30:46):
Want. Actually, that's very nice of you because I know in Covid that, so I still have a lot of trainer friends, but one of the trainer friends, the gym was still taking the same amount of money and the gym was empty. Covid hit the pandemic. Everyone was scared and going to a gym, rubbing shoulders with everyone, sweating everywhere. No one was going into the gym. And it was in the CBD. That's where I used to work, right in Market Street, if you know the CBD or I do, yeah, market Street. I do. I was there. So I left before Covid and I went online, but I had a trainer for there, and everyone was emailing the gym, and I'm not going to say them, I don't want to get sued or thrown under the bus or whatever, but they were still charging $400 a week for an empty gym, just hoping that the personal trainers wouldn't ask, or they were just so money hungry or desperate because their members were down to make revenue somehow. But it was so unfair. So to hear that you made a meat in the middle or compromised situation with your trainers is amazing to hear because I didn't respect the gym anyway, because they treated me like crap, to be honest. And they just wanted my rent. I could definitely feel that. But yeah, it was just terrible morals as a business to stand by. So to hear that is super positive.
Radford Slough (00:32:03):
I know you're going to ask me some questions later in the end, but one of those things is treat people the way you want to be treated. And if you treat people well, it will come back to you. We terminated memberships in people that didn't come back after about six or eight months, even though they hadn't cancelled. And I got notes saying, you didn't bill me this month. I said, well, you haven't been in. He said, well, I want to make sure you're there when this is all over and I'm going, we'll be fine. Okay. And that was members also,
Brock Ashby (00:32:39):
People just wanted to make sure you were still afloat and that you That's correct. That's nice. That's correct. Well, that's when
Radford Slough (00:32:45):
You know I'm a
Brock Ashby (00:32:45):
Neighbourhood as well,
Radford Slough (00:32:47):
My member, and I'm really big. It's like I don't have a paycheck if I don't have members, even though I'm the boss and I pay everybody else first. So all of my staff gets paid first, and I get the leftovers and I tell my members, I say, listen, you give me money. I provide you with good service, good product, whatever, all that stuff. I pay my staff, and if there's any money left over at the end of the month, then that's what I get. If we got to buy a new piece of equipment, or in our case, an $18,000 air conditioner, I didn't get a paycheck that month, whatever. So that's the way I run the business, and it has made me, I get a nice paycheck,
Brock Ashby (00:33:36):
But I also think that's why you've lasted 20 years. Not many gyms do that. So many turnover, especially through the pandemic. There was lease signs everywhere.
Radford Slough (00:33:47):
Everywhere. We had one down the street that was in between me and the LA Fitness that's three blocks away across the street from them. Somebody decided to open a gym up before Covid. He was doomed to fail. He didn't know what he was doing, but that's okay. That's a whole different story. And he used to be a trainer at my gym too, and he failed miserably starting about day one, and it was just awful. It was sad to watch the deterioration over three years. It took three years before he finally got evicted out of the space.
Brock Ashby (00:34:25):
It was such a pivotal transitional time for all businesses, but especially for gyms that rely on people being together in the same room, walking in the same room, walking in the door. It was very challenging. I was fortunate. It was as if someone whispered in my air, maybe call him God, and he said, come on, man, you should get out. So 20 19, 20 4th of December, I hung up the boots face-to-face training.
Radford Slough (00:34:49):
Oh
Brock Ashby (00:34:49):
Wow. Not knowing that three months later in March, we were going to hit lockdown. And I was already three months into online training. And that gave me the experience to actually run an online business because even though I loved face-to-face training, amazing like my baby, it's where you start. It's where you can tangibly help people. And you can teach people technique, face-to-face. Give them feedback right there. You can help them say whatever they want to say. They want to get whatever off their chest, about their children, about their husband, about their wife, whatever. And you have this kind of, also a
Radford Slough (00:35:25):
Little bit of counsellor. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:35:27):
Yeah, that's right. Unqualified council work throughout the session. But I loved it. And I actually struggled. I wanted to be an online trainer probably about a year before I actually did it, because I didn't want to break up with my clients. It was very hard because you develop this relationship, I would see them more than I see my friends. I would have some clients that would see me five times a week for an hour. That's five hours a week. How often do you spend five hours a week with someone that isn't your husband, your wife, your boyfriend girlfriend, or your best friend or your family that you live with? I would develop these relationships. I would know more about them than anyone would know about them. They tell you everything. They're so vulnerable, they're sweaty, they're feeling crap. They're feeling great. You get to see all their personalities.
(00:36:12):
And I really struggled with that, but I had to go because I knew that I didn't just want to help 50 people in a gym. I wanted to help 50,000 all around the world. And unfortunately, that meant breaking up with them, inviting them to come online, which most of them declined because they love who you are, not really what you do. Well, it's both, but they really love seeing you and that's why they show up. And I think face-to-face clients are different to online. Clients face-to-face clients love seeing you. They love being shouted at, or they love being encouraged and touching their shoulders to put them this way and that way when they're doing exercises and online, people, I think just require different things. So I found that very
Radford Slough (00:36:54):
Hard. Well, is that accountability thing. When you're the in-person trainer, you are the accountability when you go online. For me, it's like I'm going to get it done. And as you know, I may be a half a week behind into the next week actually trying to finish up the previous week's workout, but I'm going to get it done. Damn it.
Brock Ashby (00:37:15):
Yeah. But some people don't have that level of commitment in online. They're just like, oh, it's just an email. It's just a zoom call. It's just a whatever. It's just a tick in the box. It's all right, I'll just miss it. But you obviously hold yourself to a higher standard. But I did want to ask about the online and going online business. What were some of the, I guess, the most challenging things when the pandemic hit because it was so unknown and we all had to transition. So you talked about your trainers and how you made a compromise there, but what else did you have to scramble and figure out when lockdown hit?
Radford Slough (00:37:50):
Well, at the end of 2020 also happened to be a break point in my lease. And we were three days from announcing we were closing because my landlord had not at that point, negotiated with me to have a new lease that was reduced for covid and some circumstances. That guy that the gym failed on, there were some shenanigans going on with him. And I reached out to my landlord and I know them, and they're an amazing landlord. He has 38 shopping centres. So I mean, it's not small. So I reached out to the manager that I work with and said, listen, let me give you a little warning about him. I heard he is trying to lease my space when I go. I'd already told him I was going to go. I just hadn't told the membership yet. And two days later, he goes, we've cut him loose. Let's talk about giving you a covid lease. And they did me a two year covid lease, which ends on Monday. So October 31st, 2022 is the last day of my covid lease. And my real lease kicks in on November 1st, and it's a $6,000 a month jump.
Brock Ashby (00:39:06):
Okay, well hopefully, fingers
Radford Slough (00:39:08):
Crossed. Oh no, we're ready.
Brock Ashby (00:39:09):
That $2 increase will help you out.
Radford Slough (00:39:12):
The $2 actually is going to be about three grand a month, so it's not going to make that up. But we recovered back up to where we were before about eight months ago. And so we've been really flush. I was able to pay in cash for that $18,000 air conditioner because it failed this year.
Brock Ashby (00:39:32):
Not many gyms can do that. I'll tell you what, I was at a gym that I will keep not saying their name. I was there for probably three years and I didn't see anything change. We had a platform where they would do power lifting and drop the weights, screws were coming out of it on the floor. I would find screws. And I'm like, if someone's doing walking lunges or even just someone with a, I don't know, a weak ankle and just stepped on a screw. And I was like, this is crazy. And we were just begging for something simple like a platform that doesn't throw screws all over the floor and the benches that don't break. I would watch people do an incline dumbbell chest press holding their dumbbells, and as they were pressing up, it would click down one
(00:40:21):
While they had 30, 40 kgs on top of their head, pretty much the bench would just click all the way down to flat sometimes. And I would see it, and I literally had to, as a personal trainer, this was not my job. So I was a subcontractor. It's not my job to fix the gym, but I was like, stuff this. I literally pulled the bench from the gym floor downstairs and there was no ramp or anything. So every time I was going downstairs, I was like, KA. And I put it in the gym manager's office and I said, this is broken. This has been broken for three months and you haven't fixed it. It was just crazy. They would risk that stuff.
Radford Slough (00:41:03):
In the last eight months, we've replaced all three of our, sorry, we had two incline benches, the exact ones you're talking about, and they've just become unstable. And so at a thousand dollars, I ordered three of them each a thousand dollars each, and we ordered three of those. And again, we've worked, if my members don't stay coming in the door, I don't get a paycheck. So I make the customers happy. They an email twice a year, what toy do you want? That's what we call gym equipment. We call 'em toys. What toy do you want? And they get a new toy. So they got a third power rack. They wanted a rogue power rack. Just recently, somebody goes, we really need a new platform, heavily gnarled bar. So I got them a new Ohio Black so we can identify it as being the new bar. It's easier to pick it out. Doesn't look like all the others, but that was three, $400. Yeah, we are buying stuff for the members all the time. All the time.
Brock Ashby (00:42:10):
Seriously. So I wasn't one of the biggest gyms in Australia, and they couldn't even give us new barbells. It was just horrendous. I would've much preferred to be a trainer at your gym than the gym than I was at.
Radford Slough (00:42:21):
Most of my trainers do. I've got three trainers that make more than a hundred thousand dollars a year. Now they work fair number of hours, but they're charging 80, $85 an hour, and they pay me a flat fee. And my goal is to hit right around that 15% number for a fully loaded trade, furnishing all the equipment, everything. They don't furnish anything but brain power.
Brock Ashby (00:42:48):
So what do you do to look after your trainers? Because I know what it's like not to be looked after. And I thought it was simple, the things that I was asking for, and I wasn't asking for a lot. I didn't even ask for new toys, even though we had benches breaking and I was just literally asking for broken benches to be fixed steps with the thing peeling off just to be put down or just basic things. So what do you do? Look after a trainer? I think I just find this interesting because after being a trainer everywhere, I've experienced great service, terrible service. And as a gym owner, I think it's cool to hear it straight from you.
Radford Slough (00:43:25):
I don't take care of the trainers. I take care of the members.
Brock Ashby (00:43:29):
Everything
Radford Slough (00:43:29):
I do is aimed at the member. If the member's happy, guess what? They're happy with their trainer as long as their trainer is doing his job. And I can't make him do his job better or worse or anything else. I make sure they have the toys they need to do whatever kind of exercise they want to do. We're pulling out a seated plate, loaded hammer, strength shrug machine because the members don't use it very much. Very, very little. And we're going to put in a plate loaded hip thrust machine.
Brock Ashby (00:44:01):
Oh, that will get much
Radford Slough (00:44:02):
More. The members want one.
Brock Ashby (00:44:04):
Of course. Everyone wants a good
Radford Slough (00:44:05):
Set of ute. Well, we're using a Smith machine now, or just a bar and on a bench. And it's a pain in the ass, literally to try to set it up and get under it and get it.
Brock Ashby (00:44:16):
It's so frustrating. Yeah.
Radford Slough (00:44:17):
Yeah. You keep giving me that damn exercise that I'm like, oh my God, not this one again. So I'm like, we got to come up with a better answer. And somebody goes, oh yeah, there's a machine and finding. And again, it's a 1500, $2,000 to get commercial grade machine.
Brock Ashby (00:44:37):
That's so awesome.
Radford Slough (00:44:38):
So that's going to get ordered. Yeah. That's so good. I don't have to do stuff specific. I do take 'em to dinner at Brazilian Steakhouse once a
Brock Ashby (00:44:48):
Year. Oh, they're the best. Unlimited meat.
Radford Slough (00:44:50):
Loads of protein. Loads of protein.
Brock Ashby (00:44:52):
Keep the light green and just keep that meat coming.
Radford Slough (00:44:55):
I love it. You got it. That's exactly it. I love it. But that's really, they don't have a lot of requests because I'm already on it. The members have already asked me. I'm already working
Brock Ashby (00:45:06):
On it. Well, you know what? A quiet trainers a happy trainer, because the only trainers that opened their mouth in the PT room where we would eat lunch and cram into and all that kind of stuff were the frustrated ones. But me and my friend who were easier, the kind of busiest trainers, we were happy as Larry because we just made do with what we had, the equipment we had. I was fortunate enough to, when I first started, I got a lot of leads. So what they would do is nourish the new trainers with leads. So people would go to our gym and say, I want a trainer. And then you'd get, I don't know, a free session or two or three or different packages, and we would service them. The early trainers, and I held those clients until the end for three years. I held them because I looked after them, and I didn't make excuses, but I found that a lot of PTs, their inadequacies were projected into things around the gym like, oh, this needs to change.
(00:46:04):
That needs to change. And I was like, no, you just need to be a better trainer and at least have a client follow a programme. The amount of trainers that gave their clients programmes was under five. In a group of trainers that were about over 30, we had about 35 trainers, and only about five of them had iPads with programmes in them for each client. The rest of them would just look around and go, what do you feel like doing today? Oh, let's do bench press because it's free. So we'll do bench press. And then, oh, how's that feel? Oh, it feels good. Oh, how's your lats feeling? Oh, yeah, yeah, they feel good. All right, let's do some pull-ups. They were just free styling it. And I was like, that's why you're unhappy.
Radford Slough (00:46:47):
It's not a programme
Brock Ashby (00:46:48):
And that's why your clients are circulating. But me and my friend who were the busiest trainers, we were just getting in there and it's easy. Open up the iPad, oh, this is what we're doing today because you've planned it out. It's not that hard. But yeah, we were
Radford Slough (00:47:02):
Happy. All of my trainers have a programme, and as you know, because you're doing online training, you don't have a choice, and you got to know how to programme, and you got to have a plan for this week and this week, and this week and this week. That's really important.
Brock Ashby (00:47:19):
So important. Yeah. It's just like anything in life. If you have a plan, it's much easier to succeed as long as the plan is right. Of course. But that's why for me, I'm doing a programme design as soon as it finishes. I'm signing up for another one. I just finished one last week, and at the moment I'm reading research reviews as opposed to studying. Like this morning I was reading the correlation between eggs and cardiovascular disease and different papers on that and all this kind of stuff. And ultimately the conclusion was eggs.
Radford Slough (00:47:49):
Cause
Brock Ashby (00:47:49):
Yeah, don't cause cardiovascular disease, but there's so many things that people say about eggs, which is wrong around cholesterol and all this kind of stuff. But anyway, so I'm reading that at the moment. But I have a golden rule, and I've said this before on the podcast, but I always have to be enrolled in a course. So at the moment, while I'm doing my research reviews, I'm looking for another course to do. But programme design is essential. As a personal trainer, it's the most important thing, I think, because how else can you get results? It's easy to smash someone like a dog and just walk around and do pushups until they can't and do squats until they fail and say, oh yeah, that was a good workout seed tomorrow. But that's not progress. That's just muscle damage. And I think a five-year-old kid could do that. They could just, you have programme. You could go
Radford Slough (00:48:30):
To Instagram and just pick up a programme and do whatever they're showing that day and make yourself sore.
Brock Ashby (00:48:36):
Well, unfortunately, that's what a lot of people
Radford Slough (00:48:38):
Do. I know. I know.
Brock Ashby (00:48:40):
It's a sad time. Yeah. Actually, I want to quickly touch on your transformation and I guess where you have come from. So what was your training history, I guess from the start, from when you first walked into a gym or first, I don't know, did group classes or whatever you did, we haven't really discussed it, but what does your training journey look like? Up until now,
Radford Slough (00:49:02):
That's actually a really funny story. I'd love to hear it. I mean, really funny. Well, let's start with at 22. I had hair. Okay, the light's not showing, but it's white. You still have hair and it's thin out. I still, but I had hair. I used to permit and make it curly because
Brock Ashby (00:49:20):
I'd love to see a photo. Perfectly straight hair. I'd love to see a
Radford Slough (00:49:22):
Photo. Oh, no, you don't. It's awful. It's
Brock Ashby (00:49:23):
Awful. Please send it through.
Radford Slough (00:49:26):
So at 22, I'm still in college. I did two degrees back to back, and you would call him a flatmate, but my roommate, we would call it roommate. Two different animals in your world. Same thing for us. He got me to go to the gym in the bottom of one of the dorms. Never been in a gym before. And not two days later, the next morning I'm trying to blow dry my hair. I had longer hair, and I literally took my arm with my other hand and put it on the wall and moved my head back and forth because I couldn't walk. I couldn't move. I had to go up the handicap ramp because I couldn't lift my legs to go up the steps at the building where I had classes. That was my first experience with the gym. Okay, move forward, graduate, get out of my first job.
(00:50:26):
It didn't last, but about 10 months and get into my next job and found a gym. Fell in love with it. But I'm doing aerobics classes. So yes, I am the Richard Simmons of the world. I was wearing spandex with no underwear under it because you can't have sweaty underwear. I was so embarrassed. Now looking back at that, I'm going, but I did that all the way up until I went to Australia. And even at, oh, what was the name? 1912 something. It was a gym in St. Leonard's. That's, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And my office was two blocks up the street and I met all my friends there. We were doing classes together, we were lifting together, and I really started developing a lifestyle of more than just bike riding. I was doing long distance bike riding. So you live right off of the spit?
Brock Ashby (00:51:20):
Yeah, I'm on Spit Road.
Radford Slough (00:51:22):
Yeah. Well, that nice little just
Brock Ashby (00:51:24):
Before the spill
Radford Slough (00:51:25):
Bridge. It's like that. Yeah. Well, I used to ride up and down it, well, sorry. I would ride about halfway, and even though I'm my rider, I'd get off and walk, summit back up because I
Brock Ashby (00:51:35):
Dying. It's a steep hill.
Radford Slough (00:51:36):
It's horrible. So a lot of riding, a lot of bike riding. But I was lifting and I started lifting more. And then when I moved back to the states, it was just part of my life at that point because all my friends came from there in Sydney. It didn't develop that way through a lot of the rest of my gym time. It was more me going to the gym, occasionally having a workout partner, sometimes, not most of the time not. But I was constantly going. I mean, go four or five times a week. And so I stayed very active and I started helping background fund a couple of gyms where I was working out or my trainer was connected, and that was, I'd always got my money back. By the way. I never had a loss. It was really shocking. I always got my money back.
(00:52:26):
And then I ended up moving to Atlanta and working out. I didn't have another career at that point. I was doing a lot of stock investing. I do that as well. I manage a small portfolio here still, but that's like four hours a day. And I had nothing else to do. So I went to the gym and I actually started working the front desk. You said you worked, you were thinking about you were running to the front desk. I worked the front desk because I wasn't meeting anybody. I was at home working the stock market from home.
Brock Ashby (00:53:03):
I can relate to that. Even being an online personal trainer, it's kind of like working as a stock investor or a corporate job that's at home. As you can see, I'm at home. Sometimes I go to Cafe, cafe to mix it up, or I go to the beach and try and work from there. And I do different things, but people don't walk into your door. You have to find excuses to meet people. That's one of the great reasons I started Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as well. Even though it's a great art, and I love Brazilian, I think it teaches me so much more mentally than it does physically. But I meet people, there's 20 guys, maybe sometimes a couple of girls that are doing, and we talk in between roles. We laugh before, we laugh after. And it's a great way to meet people. But I think when you work on your own, you have to get out there or ask. We were meant to be around people, and when you spend all day alone and you don't see anyone, you just go to the gym and come back. It's a rough day, I think. It kind of adds up. You get lonely.
Radford Slough (00:54:01):
So that's what I was doing, was meeting people and it worked. And then of course, I became the boss. That was an interesting transition. I'm working the front desk and now all of a sudden I'm the owner. And they knew nothing about this. They knew nothing that was going on in the background. And I had people who looked down on front desk staff.
Brock Ashby (00:54:23):
That's interesting.
Radford Slough (00:54:24):
And all of a sudden, I'm the owner and they're completely puzzled and shocked, and now they're being nice to me. And I'm like, you're an asshole. I'm sorry.
Brock Ashby (00:54:31):
Your membership is cancelled.
Radford Slough (00:54:33):
Yeah. I actually got into a row with one of 'em, and I did terminate his membership and kicked him out of the gym. Well, they're
Brock Ashby (00:54:40):
Leaked to the gym culture.
Radford Slough (00:54:44):
And I progressed in, when I was in it, I was paid really well, like stupid. We were having this conversation just yesterday, stupid amounts of money, way more than I thought I was worth. But if you're going to, and I get this, this was in the nineties. They were paying me $110 an hour, and I'm working 40, 45 hours a week. Okay. No benefits or anything like that, but that's a lot of stupid money. And I saved a bunch of it, and I invested a bunch of it. And so I did okay. I spent a lot of it too, because a travelling fiend, as you know, could you have seen just a little bit of my schedule? I like getting on an aeroplane and going somewhere.
Brock Ashby (00:55:33):
Yeah. Yeah. So what's been the number one place that you've loved travelling so far? Or maybe we go top three because you've travelled a lot of places. It'll be hard to narrow down to one. I travelled a lot of places. What's your top three places to travel as a person that hasn't travelled very much. I like vicariously living through other people's travel adventures.
Radford Slough (00:55:52):
Okay. So next month I add one more country that will put me at 71 countries. So I'm adding Israel next month, Iceland, we've been there three times and we're going again in June. And we're doing a cruise that goes up on the north side, which we've not been to, and then over to Greenland, which we've never been to. So that'll be adding country number 72 Australia, I love Australia. It's not hat, it's so freaking hard to get to you because you're so far away.
Brock Ashby (00:56:26):
It's far away from
Radford Slough (00:56:27):
Everything. It's a long way. It's a long way and we've been to Europe a bunch. We go to London, my other half and I were married in London actually, or had the official ceremony in London and so Europe, I don't want to separate a country out because sometimes you don't even realise you've crossed into another country. They're so close together, but we have a blast. We love travelling.
Brock Ashby (00:56:56):
So what's your top experience that you've done travelling then? I guess? So I know you did scuba diving in one of your most recent places. I can't remember where it is off the top of my head. Honduras, sorry. Honduras. Honduras. Honduras. Yeah. So what was, I guess your favourite travel experience? Like a thing that you've done in a country? Like a tourist activity or just the activity in general? What has been one of your most favourite ones?
Radford Slough (00:57:21):
Oh, I don't know that I can answer that question
Brock Ashby (00:57:24):
I have. You can't answer. I have so
Radford Slough (00:57:25):
Much fun every time I go. I mean it doesn't matter where I go. I fun, fun, fun. My other half is big on history, so we do a lot of history that he loves churches. Oh my God, I don't want to see another damn cathedral. It's just driving me nuts. But
Brock Ashby (00:57:42):
I can't say I find that very interesting either. I'm more of an adventurer.
Radford Slough (00:57:45):
He's looking at all the religious stuff and I'm looking at how they built the building. That's how it works.
Brock Ashby (00:57:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so coming back away from travel, back to your achievement, I'd love to talk about your transformation and how it's been. Obviously you've been working with me for 64 weeks plus, but what was your training like? I guess previous coming to me? You said you had trainers before. Oh yeah.
Radford Slough (00:58:18):
By trainers.
Brock Ashby (00:58:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was your, I guess transition to working with me, I would love to know out of a curiosity standpoint from what their programmes and stuff are like, and it can be positive, it can be negative, it can be whatever you want to say, but how was your experience working with other trainers?
Radford Slough (00:58:36):
Two of my trainers that I've worked with the most, Andrew and Christian, I can name 'em because I had a phenomenal experience. I trained with Andrew for, ooh, good lord, four or five years and got stronger. The back got a little bit better because I was really starting to have a lot of back problems from the surgery and he has a biomechanics. He's a Paul check certified, he's level five, he's the top level. And when you do Paul check,
Brock Ashby (00:59:12):
Yeah,
Radford Slough (00:59:13):
It is a pain in the ass certification. It took him years and he teaches it now. I mean he's really into it. And then it was an extra CrossFitter,
Brock Ashby (00:59:25):
Two very different styles.
Radford Slough (00:59:27):
Oh my god. Totally different. But it worked out beautifully because one Andrew moved to have his own studio and to only one-on-one and specialty stuff. He trains people for Ironmans, that sort of stuff as well. And he did online as well as in person in his new studio and he's still doing it in that same damn studio. I mean he does an amazing job. He's got kids that actually have had car accidents and they've had brain damage and he trains them on how to mechanically learn how to walk again. And he does really cool stuff. Christian's still in my gym, one of my most successful trainers as a matter of fact, and I love training with him, but my schedule just like, oh, I can't make it today. I can't be there at two o'clock or whenever we, and I've just got to go to an online and then covid happened and it's like I'm just going to go to an online trainer so when my time is there, I can do my workout or if it solely blows away, I'll just move it to tomorrow. And an in-person trainer just can't have a schedule like that. It doesn't work.
Brock Ashby (01:00:39):
Yeah, that's one of the benefits of online training is being able to make it work when you can't. I would struggle with that too. When I was a face-to-face trainer. People are busy and especially when you people that can afford personal training because it is a luxury, do have to often travel quite a lot and have busy schedules and have meetings and they just have places to be. So I was always constantly, man, as a face-to-face trainer, you're constantly on your phone trying to reschedule on calls. Can you make that? Trying to make it work. It's tricky. What's been a thing that's helped you maintain your training whilst you've been so busy travelling, running different businesses, investments and stuff like that? How have you managed to stay consistent? Because we've been working together for over a year, probably a year and a half. And what's been able to sustain you to actually be consistent? Because a lot of people with your type of schedule, online training's not for me or fitness isn't for me. I'll just do it when I can or I'm too busy and you have almost every excuse in the world. Your lower back causes can cause you discomfort if you don't train correctly. What has been your secret?
Radford Slough (01:01:51):
One second on the phone. Okay. One of my friends came for dinner and he's downstairs and I'm like, oh, you can wait. You can sit
Brock Ashby (01:01:59):
Down here. Oh, sorry. Yeah, and then we'll quick file the last three and then you're out of here.
Radford Slough (01:02:04):
Well, I can do it with one word mirror looking in the mirror. Oh, I weighed 174 pounds, translate that, whatever. At 11, I had a 37 inch waist. I have a, we'll call it thirty one thirty two inch waist right now. And I weigh five pounds less than I did when I was 11. Now I'm lot taller. In other words, I was a big fat kid wearing bell bottoms. Yes, bell bottoms. It was the type bell bottom jeans no less. So that was the thing. And I was wearing huskies. You hear the story about wearing husky jeans? Well, I was wearing husky jeans. I got taller. I stopped gaining weight, I started riding a bike a lot. I didn't lose weight. I stayed within five or 10 pounds of that literally until now. But I wanted to change the way I looked in the mirror. It wasn't about anybody else, although the attention that being in better shape does, you can relate to that. I've seen a picture of your wife. She's not unattractive. So it does help.
Brock Ashby (01:03:22):
I think it's inspirational to some people as well. People take inspiration from that and they aspire. Oh
Radford Slough (01:03:27):
Yeah. Well you look at people on the Instagram and you'll see a lot of it's stand model, a lot of it, and it is what it is. That doesn't give me a whole lot of inspiration. I'd rather see you working out and see that muscle twitch and move while you're doing that exercise
Brock Ashby (01:03:54):
As opposed to just flexing
Radford Slough (01:03:55):
It. Oh, that's what that's doing. That's what that's supposed to look like. Okay, I can do that movement. I need to move my arm a little bit differently because I wasn't holding the position quite right, which you've corrected a bunch of my posture mistakes along the way as I send you videos and thank you for that. So it makes a difference.
Brock Ashby (01:04:16):
Yeah. So you seeing the process over the outcome, you find it much more
Radford Slough (01:04:20):
Well, I like the outcome too. I mean a
Brock Ashby (01:04:22):
Lot. Sorry. In other people, sorry, in other people I should say on Instagram and stuff,
Radford Slough (01:04:27):
I like the watch a process. The outcome is obviously great, but I don't need to sit here and watch you do a double bicep all the time. How'd you get the damn double bicep? That doesn't help me figure out how to get there. Just watching you pose.
Brock Ashby (01:04:41):
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Alright, let's wrap up with the last final questions because
Radford Slough (01:04:47):
These are hard.
Brock Ashby (01:04:48):
Yeah, no, kind of. So first one, what's one thing you do every day that helps you become a better person?
Radford Slough (01:04:57):
Give back. I donate a lot of money. Somebody calls to the gym. We're constantly donating to charities, to the school's, doing auctions. They give a one year membership and whatever money you get is yours. They love that. And I personally donate if you don't take care of yourself. This is my thing about why workout too. If you don't take care of yourself, how in the hell are you going to take care of somebody else? Your health is just going to go to shit. You've got to take care of yourself. Well, I can help take care of other people. We donate to the elementary school actually in the school system in the mountains. It's a fairly poor school system and we donate to it every year. Money to do things that they want to do. The last year was electronic chalkboards and they're getting rid of the real chalkboards and they're going to these 80 inch touchscreen TVs that are on sands that go up and down so they can lower it for the kids and it keeps the kids engaged. They like to go up and touch the thing, so they're actually learning something. Well, you got to do
Brock Ashby (01:06:07):
Math. It makes learning more inviting
Radford Slough (01:06:10):
And it is interactive. That's my philosophy on a day-to-day basis. How do you give back to somebody else?
Brock Ashby (01:06:18):
I love that. I think that's super important for people just to get out of their own situation as well. It helps you see, I think from, I've wanted to give back since 14 years old. I talked about the story actually on the last podcast that I did, but I had a mentor of mine that was so generous and just gave back without expecting anything in return, which I think is how we should be giving back or else, I don't think it's really giving if you're waiting for something in return, but he would just give. And I remember asking him, how can I be generous? And he just said, give what you have. I was like, I'm so poor. I'm like 14 years old. I wasn't working. I was at school and we would go for dinner or saying he would shout me and I would feel so bad because I was like, I couldn't shout him because I literally had 20 bucks. I was like, how do I do it? And he was like, just give what you have. Maybe it's a coffee because that's proportionate to what I have
Radford Slough (01:07:08):
All your
Brock Ashby (01:07:08):
Time. Yeah, exactly. The time of taking someone's question and answering it with the little knowledge that I did have at the time, but at least it was giving back. So I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of that. Second question, what is a book that has helped you become better?
Radford Slough (01:07:30):
One of the books that I really like, and it's not a book, it's a genre of books, but it's on body language and I absolutely love them. One of the ones I did was written by an ex-police officer and it was about how he interrogated people and it was super fascinating. If I was watching you and I was actually in person in front of you, I would be watching where your feet are. Are they moving where your hands are? What are you doing? All these things because they give me information back on, are you comfortable? Are you uncomfortable? Are you hiding something? Think about this for somebody who's speaking in front of other people or personal training, okay, you're talking to them and they cross their arms. You can't really see me doing it of the way I got the camera done. But that's called blocking. And that means they don't want to answer the question or they're not comfortable and they're protecting themselves. This means they want say something, but they're not saying something. They got something to say, but they're scared to say it. Those sorts of things are really, really important in your day-to-day life,
Brock Ashby (01:08:42):
That can help you in many ways if you're dating in a date. Yeah, if you're dating, if they're crossing their arms, change the subject, man, I
Radford Slough (01:08:54):
Don't think that's a problem with your wife. I think she's going to look at you and go listen, and you're going to hit the finger. Listen.
Brock Ashby (01:09:00):
So what does the finger mean?
Radford Slough (01:09:03):
Well, usually
Brock Ashby (01:09:04):
Pointing with one finger
Radford Slough (01:09:05):
Pointing. Well, the US in Australia, you point with two fingers or you don't use that, but pointing with one finger usually means you're not doing it right and it's derogatory.
Brock Ashby (01:09:19):
Okay.
Radford Slough (01:09:20):
Now that's not pointing to go down the hallway that's pointing at someone.
Brock Ashby (01:09:24):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I saw something on this where pointing with one finger is different to pointing with an open palm.
Radford Slough (01:09:30):
It is. This is kind of more open. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:09:35):
Interesting. What's the name? Or do you have a specific book on it or an author that I can search? I'm actually interested in
Radford Slough (01:09:42):
Checking that out. I'll look it back up. But here's the problem. I also, when I read a book, if somebody says, oh, I'm interested in that, I give them book. So I gave the book away so I don't even remember the name of it, but he was a police officer and it was on Amazon of course. And I'll look it up and I'll let you know
Brock Ashby (01:10:01):
What it's, well, I can search police officer body language and I'm sure so
Radford Slough (01:10:03):
Will come up. Well, it's on my Amazon account, even though I order 750 items a year off of Amazon. I can find the book.
Brock Ashby (01:10:11):
Okay, cool. Last question, what is a quote that has helped you become a better person?
Radford Slough (01:10:18):
Learn something new every day, period. Make a point. It's so important to keep your brain engaged. But even talking to some, I'm southern so I can talk to a doorknob, but
Brock Ashby (01:10:39):
I love talking to strangers too in the elevator at the checkout supermarket. I love just fucking up conversation.
Radford Slough (01:10:46):
It's interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. And you'll learn something, even if it's about them, maybe not on life or whatever, but you've gathered information about another person or learned something that this is the book that I just finished. Can you read
Brock Ashby (01:11:04):
That? I Shot To Save The World by Gregory Zuckerman.
Radford Slough (01:11:07):
That's a book on Covid and how Moderna and Pfizer came up with the mRNA and it has the drama behind the fights between the company and then how it actually is made. And I'm such a nerd, I'm a science guy, and it literally talks about the lipids and all this other stuff on how you actually make the vaccine.
Brock Ashby (01:11:28):
Okay, so that's why you learned today day or recently?
Radford Slough (01:11:32):
Oh no, this, I'm finished with this one. I've actually already listened to it on audiobook too. So I mean it's a great book.
Brock Ashby (01:11:41):
Nice. Yeah, I love that. And that's why I have that golden rule of always being enrolled in a course. So at the moment I try to focus on learning something specific to my career because I think in the world of fitness or personal training, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. That's any industry really, but a lot of personal trainers just rely on having a good body or sounding authoritative. But I think knowledge is what's going to sustain you. A personal trainer is only meant to last about six months. That's the average lifespan of a personal trainer.
Radford Slough (01:12:15):
Wow,
Brock Ashby (01:12:16):
I didn't know that. So I've done that 10 times over and not look at it slowing down. So I think knowledge is what sustained me and actually helped me retain my clients because the first three months that I was a personal trainer in Sydney, I had zero clients and then I got up to 60 sessions, not 60 clients, but 60 sessions because some clients do more than one session per week, some do three, four or five depending on what they can commit to. And then after that, I didn't walk the floor ever again just because I could retain clients and I just stayed busy. And I'm not trying to gloat, I'm trying to, I guess gloat about the power of knowledge because that's what sustained me. My programming was getting better the way that I was talking and communicating and even running my business was better.
(01:12:58):
I changed from taking random payments to taking easy debit, sorry, direct debit because then I didn't need to think about it. They didn't need to think about it. It was just easy. I was like, okay, yep, two sessions a week, bang, that's going to come out every Monday, whether you're here or not. If you can't make it, then we talk about it and we make it up or we readjust next week or whatever. But the knowledge that I was accumulating and that whole learn something new every day, I think has what's sustained me in my career. And obviously what's propelled you into your career and everything that you've achieved. So I definitely stand by that too.
Radford Slough (01:13:32):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:13:33):
Well it's been an awesome chat mate. This is actually the first time we've properly, I guess Chatted. Can't wait to meet you in April, get a coffee, get a workout in. And I appreciate your time, mate. Sounds awesome. And I hope you have a awesome tonight with your friend.
Radford Slough (01:13:45):
Thank you very much.
Brock Ashby (01:13:47):
Awesome mate. Cheers.
Radford Slough (01:13:48):
Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 24 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with the legend, Norma Nelson, and we just met last weekend, I think it was, was it last weekend or the week before? Last
Norma Nelson (00:00:11):
Weekend? I think it was last weekend. No, the week before. The week before. Before, yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:00:16):
Yeah. We both had orange leggings on, which is the first for me, not sure about Norma. Yeah, it
Norma Nelson (00:00:20):
Was the first meet too,
Brock Ashby (00:00:21):
But we were the coaches for Hermes fitt, which was an event in Sydney. Awesome. To be a part of the brand. So good. How did you find that experience? How'd you find
Norma Nelson (00:00:31):
Coaching? I was amazing, but for me, I remember just pinching myself a lot thinking, how did I get here? I'm surrounded by all these people from the wellness fitness industry that have excelled and they've got thousands of followers and all this stuff, and there's a little humble norma in the mix,
Brock Ashby (00:00:49):
But you were different. No one else could have done what you did, even though I don't think it was displayed in the classes. It was like what? You had to do a hat balance class. That's right. What sort of classes were you doing?
Norma Nelson (00:01:01):
So I was doing a hat balance class and a silk class. So basically I think they approached me in the first instance because they found me on Instagram. I love to fuse different modalities of movement, so handstands, animal flow yoga. So I've got a lot of stuff going on my page or different ways that I move, and that's what sort of enticed them towards me, I guess. So they wanted me to put something creative together using hats and scarves.
Brock Ashby (00:01:31):
Yeah, so how do you incorporate things into using that product? Because I was doing a HIIT class with shoes, so I was doing the shoes as I was saying that they're the most expensive dumbbells you'll ever use, $1,500 shoes. Excellent. And we were dragging them left to supporting with
Norma Nelson (00:01:51):
Them. That's actually really creative. I think if I was tasked with that, I wouldn't know what to do with them. Well, how do you incorporate a shoe? And I spent a lot of time thinking, this is so strange. How am I going to do a hat and scarves? And then I kind of thought about it a lot and just thought, you know what? I'm just going to hat balance. I'll just do things that involve balance, try and get creative with it, try and fuse all the different modalities that I'm familiar with and come up with something creative. So yeah, they approached me with it a long time ago. I think the whole process started many, many months ago. March. Yeah, March,
Brock Ashby (00:02:24):
Exactly. I almost forgot about it at one point. And then they emailed. They're like, yeah, we're ready. We're looking forward to go. Oh, what are we doing? Yeah,
Norma Nelson (00:02:31):
Exactly. And I remember at the time when they sort chased me up again, there were so many interims between I'd hear from them and I wouldn't hear from them for months, and I'd forget about 'em, and then they'd pop their head up again. I'm like, oh my God, that thing. And I remember I was in Thailand at the time when they were really getting traction on it, and they were like, okay, so we want you to send a couple of videos so that we can send it off to Hermes so they can get the approval. So I'm on a beach in Thailand thinking, what am I going to do with scarf and a hat? So that's actually where a lot of the creative sequencing came from. I was really relaxed at the time. I had a bit of time on my hands to just get a bit creative with it. So yeah, it was a very interesting experience. I loved it. I loved the connections that I made, and it was, I was so grateful to be a part of something so big and to be surrounded by people that have really excelled in their industry. And it was very inspiring in so many levels.
Brock Ashby (00:03:25):
I'd never heard of pretty much everyone even, they're like, oh, Norma Nelson's going to be there. And I was like, shit, am I meant to know who that is? They're like, and leave Simmons
Norma Nelson (00:03:35):
And I, who's that?
Brock Ashby (00:03:37):
I'm a guy that lifts weights. Exactly. Trying to wonder who these people are, and they're Pilates and yoga and different, you're saying different
Norma Nelson (00:03:44):
Moments. The only person I'd come across before was Leah Simmons. I know what she does in the wellness industry space, but even I remember we parked our car next to each other
Norma Nelson (00:03:53):
Before we even got in. I was like, and we nodded each other. I'm like, Hey, and then next minute
Norma Nelson (00:03:58):
You're in there with the orange tights like
Norma Nelson (00:04:00):
Me, and we're like, Hey, it's you again.
Brock Ashby (00:04:03):
Yeah, I was wondering. I was like, I had no idea where to go. I kind of looked at you and I was like, I nodded. But I was like, are you trying to say in my head, do you know where to go? What are you doing? Do we go this way or that way? Yeah. So what do you actually do on a day-to-day basis? Because like you're saying, you're doing animal flow, you're doing yoga, you're doing handstands.
Norma Nelson (00:04:25):
What is it? So my full-time sort of gig is I'm a yoga teacher. So predominantly that's what I do. I started doing yoga, I don't know, around 2013. I did my yoga teacher training in 2016 and started teaching part-time while still holding down a really high pressured corporate job. And then in 2018, I made the switch to teaching full-time. I teach full-time yoga in studios across Sydney, but I also do my own thing on the side. So I do a lot of workshops, handstand workshops, arm balancing workshops, and yeah, that's essentially what I do.
Brock Ashby (00:05:09):
So taking it back to the corporate job, what were you doing in the corporate world? That's a very different
Norma Nelson (00:05:13):
Life. Oh my god, it's a very different life indeed. So immediately before teaching yoga, I was in corporate doing sales and marketing. Before that, I did architecture. And at that time in the sales, at one stage in my life, I thought, if I make enough money, I'm going to be happy. Money is the route to happiness. And so I found myself in sales. My life kind of took me in that direction. I was fortunate enough to be very, very good at what I did, but because of that, there was more and more pressure being put on me to you get
Brock Ashby (00:05:47):
Tied down more. Oh
Norma Nelson (00:05:48):
My God,
Brock Ashby (00:05:49):
You get promoted, get more responsibility.
Norma Nelson (00:05:51):
Absolutely. You get more pay as well. And all of it is just escalating. So I got to the point where anxiety was, I was so anxious, stressed, I was kind of living a pretty unhealthy, if you think about that lifestyle and high powered corporate roles, high pressure.
Brock Ashby (00:06:06):
And were you pursuing fitness at all in this time?
Norma Nelson (00:06:09):
No. No yoga. This is why I started doing yoga because I was so stressed. I was not living a healthy lifestyle. When you're not working and trying to meet targets, you're in the pub thinking about or trying to decompress that way. And it was just a health, unhealthy lifestyle. Both the stress factor outside of work, all of it was just hard. I'm like, this is not sustainable. I'm going to kill myself. I carry on this literally. So I started doing yoga, and that's basically where that journey started. So over time, the breaks at the pub at lunchtime and after work got replaced by going to yoga classes. And this was something that really helped me out. So that's where my yoga journey actually began. And over time, the yoga kind of took over. I got more curious about it. I thought I want to find out a little bit more about why this modality of fitness makes me feel so good and dah, dah, dah.
(00:07:05):
I just wanted to deepen my practise with no intentions of being a teacher. And over the years, it just took over. I remember the day I got up from bed, I just woke up out of my sleep and I was like, yep, I can't do this anymore. I can't do corporate anymore. So it took me two years to fully transition from part-time teaching to you are earning a crap tonne of money. And then going into a world where this completely unknown. I didn't know how much I was going to earn. I didn't think yoga teachers earned that well, but thankfully, due to my sales background and just knowing about business, I've got a pretty good business head on me. And after a few years of teaching in the industry, I started to see where gaps lay and where I could potentially do my own thing and increase my revenue. So yeah, I've been growing my business essentially, even though I still contract myself out to a few studios here and there, but ultimately I want to be more independent from studios and really just focus on doing my own thing more.
Brock Ashby (00:08:03):
So what would you give as advice to people that are aspiring yoga teachers or yoga? They want to run classes or maybe they want to do privates because I even know a few people that they love yoga. And it seems like when people do yoga, they kind of dive into it head first like you do because
Norma Nelson (00:08:20):
It's something that we come, I remember when I first started doing yoga or yoga teacher training, something that really stuck with me is that people come to yoga for a reason. Maybe it's to be fit or to de-stress, decompress, whatever. But the minute you delve into that world so much deeper, it's so much more than physical movement, the philosophies that come with it, and yeah, it's deep. It's a deep world of self-awareness, knowing what's going on within you, how you relate to yourself to the rest of the world. So it's so more than just the physical practise.
Brock Ashby (00:08:57):
So how would they turn it into a living if they were, what advice would you give or what struggles did you go through when you were trying to go from this corporate to absolutely a full-time
Norma Nelson (00:09:07):
Teacher? Regardless, I think it's really important that you get into studios because that's where you're going to grow your following. If you're a great teacher, people will always come back to you. And before you know it, you've got heaps of people that just follow you everywhere. People
Brock Ashby (00:09:19):
Are so cult-like with classes too. They're like, I'm not going on a Tuesday. That's not normal.
Norma Nelson (00:09:23):
Exactly. And if I'm going away on holiday for three weeks, God forbid another teacher takes my place. I'm like, so guys, I'm going away for three weeks. This guy's going to be taken over. Please support him. None of them turn up. We'll
Brock Ashby (00:09:37):
Take three weeks off. Thanks. Exactly.
Norma Nelson (00:09:39):
Exactly. Which is really, it's very complimentary and I feel very grateful for having this very solid following of people. But it just goes to show you how human beings can be creatures of habit. They're just like, nap, I want this and this only. And even the yoga philosophy tries to teach you not to non-attachment. Don't get attached to things.
Brock Ashby (00:09:59):
Anyone don't idolise
Norma Nelson (00:10:00):
Nap? I don't care. I'm coming to your
Brock Ashby (00:10:02):
Car. I love Norma.
Norma Nelson (00:10:04):
So yeah, definitely start off with studios to build your client base, and from there, naturally things will evolve and happen. I've been so lucky, so lucky to have had so many different opportunities that have come my way. The Hermes thing, the Lululemon, ambassadorship, all these, I've had crazy projects that I've done through the years of doing yoga. And this is purely from people coming to my class feeling my energy and just going, you are amazing or whatever. Can you do this? We want you to do this. I haven't actively gone out for most of these things. Like you
Brock Ashby (00:10:38):
Haven't done the sales and marketing work that you studied. No,
Norma Nelson (00:10:41):
I know, right? It's incredible. And I think it's a testament to anybody that does what they love. If you are passionate about what you do, it will resonate through every pore of your being. People will see that a mile away, and that is something that is a beautiful quality to have. It means that you're being very true to yourself. This is not just the job to you. I don't look at my job as a job anymore. It's just I'm getting paid to do something I love. I get opportunities, bigger opportunities out of doing something I love. So yeah, I'm extremely grateful that things have kind of turned out the way that they do my initial fears of am I going to be able to support myself, this, that and the other. Everything just looks after itself. You work hard. You do things with integrity. You live a life of service in a way. We are living a life of service. We're helping other people achieve things and da, it always comes back. It always comes back to you in some way. So life is a beautiful journey. You've just got to surrender to it sometimes.
Brock Ashby (00:11:42):
So what do you think people love so much about working with you or having classes done by you? What do you think separates you or gives you the Lululemon ambassadorship and her misfit gates? It's
Norma Nelson (00:11:54):
Hard to say. I mean, obviously my personality, I'm really passionate about what I do. And you can see it when I teach. Definitely. You can see that this has come from a place of experience as well. I'm one of these people that I see a lot of coaches out there that I haven't really immersed themselves in their industry, but are teaching and doing all this stuff. And you might go to a class and they don't demonstrate and things like that. And for me, I get inspired by the real deal. If you're going to teach me about something, you better have been doing it for a period of time. Do you know what I mean? You better know what you're talking about. And I'm exactly the same. But also I think I'm very encouraging. I have a passion for really getting people to see the potential within themselves, because that's something the yoga practise kind of does.
(00:12:42):
It's an incredible journey. If you'd told me, I don't know, five, six years ago you'd be running handstand workshops and you'd be able to do this with your body, I'd be like, no way. But it's something that has just evolved through the practise, the discipline of practising every day and doing all this stuff. And then you're like, oh my God, my body can do this. What else can I do? And then you keep, and also I think maybe there's not many people like me, I don't know many black yoga instructors in Sydney with blonde, with blonde hair, with blonde hair. That looks different. And that could be a factor. Who knows? Diversity is a big thing now.
Brock Ashby (00:13:20):
But also, I don't think that's big enough to say, I'm going to go to who yoga class because she's black and has
Norma Nelson (00:13:25):
Blonde yet. Oh, definitely
Brock Ashby (00:13:26):
Not. Definitely not. If you sucked, you have empty classes.
Norma Nelson (00:13:28):
Exactly, exactly. And also my skillset. So obviously handstands is something that I'm so, so passionate about. I've spent a lot of time, money training myself with some of the best handstands in the world. And even that whole handstand journey itself, I remember when I saw somebody do your handstand for the first time, I'm like, whoa, that
Brock Ashby (00:13:49):
Is for longer than three seconds. Yeah,
Norma Nelson (00:13:50):
Exactly. And I thought, okay, is this part of yoga? Started doing yoga classes, and every time I would go to a class with an instructor that claimed to have know about handstands and stuff, they never really taught it. They're just like, okay, so this is your opportunity to try and get into a handstand. We'll just dump 10 times and hopefully you'll catch something. I'm like, that's not a technique. Where's
Brock Ashby (00:14:12):
The steps?
Norma Nelson (00:14:12):
Where's the steps? What do I focus on? Surely that I can get to this consistently every single time, surely. So I couldn't find it in yoga, and I had to go out of the yoga industry. And all the guys that I followed on Instagram, all these guys with hundreds and thousands of followers, people that have been hand standing for 30 years, I've studied with most of them. I've done workshops with most of them. So all this collective knowledge is what I, and the time that I spent getting to that level, and I think it's inspiring for a lot of people. They're like, oh wow, if this little person can do it, surely I can. Yeah, I like being that inspiration to people and that sense of encouragement that yes can, it is possible. It is completely possible. And I love when people are surprised by their own abilities.
Brock Ashby (00:14:58):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that you said there that I really like. First of all, encouragement. I think I'm particularly good at that as well. It's difficult in an online space to give encouragement as directly, because you're not with them. You kind of celebrate the wins after they achieve as opposed to throughout their achievement. But that's why. So I'm not good at emails, but I have a software called Loom. Everyone can use it, and I just talk to the camera. So I would rather give encouragement and give my feedback emails through that instead of like, hello, John, good job. You lost two kgs. I'll talk and say, this is awesome. So they can see my energy. That's right. But I think a lot of people don't have encouragement these days.
Norma Nelson (00:15:38):
No, not
Brock Ashby (00:15:38):
At all. I was fortunate enough to get encouragement, and it was in a different time of my life. I was 14, but I was surrounded by a lot of older people that really saw something in me that I never saw. And they encouraged me, and this was when I was doing music, but they encouraged me to sing to song, write to stand on stage. And this is incredible. Actually think that I'm okay because I was like, yeah, I can play Bob Marley, my dad, or he taught me House of the Rising Sun.
Norma Nelson (00:16:03):
Amazing.
Brock Ashby (00:16:03):
I did lessons I could do Bob, the Builder, Flintstones theme songs and all that kind of stuff. And I thought it was just something that was fun. And then they saw a raw talent, I guess, or just believed in me. And that encouragement, even though I didn't become Justin Bieber, it gave me the steps to be confident. It's so important. When I transitioned to fitness, I had that confidence, but it came from that early encouragement.
Norma Nelson (00:16:25):
Yeah, it's actually very interesting that you touch on the subject of encouragement, because for me, it was completely the opposite. When I was younger growing up, there were stages of my life where I grew up. Well, I predominantly grew up in the uk, in London, and at one point in my life, my parents or my dad got a job and another part of the UK that wasn't so diverse in terms of people. It was very, very homogenous, mostly white people. I was the only black kid in my school. So at that period of my life, and I think it was about through the ages of 14 to 18, which are really pivotal stages in a teenager's life, I didn't have much encouragement and it was detrimental to the person that I became years after that. So I understand the power of encouragement, and when I got to a point where I am in a position to influence other people, that was at the forefront of my mind.
(00:17:24):
I'm like, encouragement is so important. Literally, if I had been encouraged through school, the decisions that I wanted to make were affected by the fact that I had teachers that were telling me that I can't do this. No, you won't be able to do that. What does that do to a kid? It's absolutely detrimental to their being. So that was something that I was like, I'm not going to be like this. It's so important, especially with kids, to instil that sense of confidence in them from a very young age. And I was a teacher before I became a yoga teacher. I taught, I lived in Thailand for many years as well. So
Brock Ashby (00:18:04):
What did you teach in Thailand?
Norma Nelson (00:18:05):
I started off teaching English, actually teaching English as a foreign language and then moved to other things, drama, musical theatre, all this kind of stuff. But yeah, that was also at the forefront of my mind that these little people, we have to sort of shape their minds. I remember at the time that I actually moved to Thailand. So funny. Well, now it's funny. In retrospect it wasn't that great, but there were not many black people in Thailand at that time. And even getting the job, I remember the person that interviewed me was like, I love your energy, Norma. You sound like an amazing person, but the reality is ties, they're not used to having black people here. I dunno how you're going to go. And I remember one of my first days at school teaching a little Thai kid comes up to me and is just all over these saying things in Thai. I had a translator at the time, and I'm like, what's this kid talking about? And she's like, oh, don't worry about it. Just kind of laughed it off in that sort of peevish way. And eventually she told me what he said, and his words were, do you own a gun? I know. And I'm like, why would you say that's
Brock Ashby (00:19:10):
Kids just say
Norma Nelson (00:19:11):
Anything. Exactly. And they were like, no, black people TV and what they'd seen from tv, and I was mortified. He would've got
Brock Ashby (00:19:17):
Expelled if he did that
Norma Nelson (00:19:18):
Today. Yeah. But at that moment, I remember thinking to myself, wow, this is a child and there's already been an imprint of what he thinks about black people, and I can just let this slide or actually change his opinion so that he can become a different kind of adult. So yeah, things like this shaping young minds encouragement. Yeah. So it's very interesting that you touched on the subject of encouragement. Sorry, I deviated
Brock Ashby (00:19:46):
That. Yeah, no, that's all right. Another thing you said was, well, I'm picking up from what you said is you're a practitioner, right? So you've done it all. Oh yeah. And that's very rare. I think more so in the online space, I guess, because where I am, there's a lot of people that will post cool videos. They're engaging like, oh wow, you can do a handstand and put your leg like that. That's crazy. I'm going to sign up. But they have no coaching skills. That's right. Because they're not a practitioner. I did a two week course and now I'm going to make some money for just kind of full people. And they sign up, they get a PDF, and they're like, sweet. I made 50 bucks, so I made a hundred bucks. And just do it all over again and recycle through people. Exactly. So I think being a practitioner is super important.
(00:20:25):
That's why I think I do well online because I've been a coach. I started in 2015, and even though I've only done it from 2015 to 2020, the amount of hours I spent on the gym floor is just ridiculous. I would be there, I would generally start at six. Some days I would start at five 30 if I would be crazy enough to take on an early person, and then I wouldn't leave about 9:00 PM and that was Monday to Friday. That's it. Then if that wasn't enough, 14 hour days on the weekend in New Zealand when I first started, I was doing any sort of modelling gigs that I could get, and I was also a TV presenter as well. So I was doing stuff multi tasking. This was when we were talking about before on the podcast, I got burnt out. Yeah, exactly right. But then also when I came to, so I did all that.
(00:21:11):
I moved to Australia, I burnt out, and then I came here and I was like, okay, I want a job. So I went to, this was when I was in Sydney. I first went to Gold Coast, I moved to Sydney, and then I went to Fitness First Market Street in the CBD, and I was there, and then I was just like, I want to work from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM busy with clients, so I'm going to just work those hours anyway. And the structure of my work was I didn't do any classes. I backed myself a lot. So I was like, I'm going to, I've been in personal training before. I'll just start paying rent. And even though you make $0 when you first start, you just take that burden of paying the rent, and then you build your clients as you go. And fingers crossed, you get clients. Us, it's $400 every single week out. Window fingers first, the Oh, wow. Out the window. So I was down to a point where I had about $2,000 left and I really pushed it. And my house rent was about three 50. I had a studio and studio in Pots Point, real small, pretty gangster. Walk out the street, prostitutes on your left drug addicts on the right. Just crazy. It said Pots Point, but it was on Darling House Rose. I was like, this is King's Cross, man.
Norma Nelson (00:22:22):
This is ghetto end.
Brock Ashby (00:22:22):
Yeah, pots Point sounds good, but it doesn't look good. So I was working a lot like 6:00 AM 9:00 PM but then because I had no money and three 50 a week rent for my house, 400 for fitness first, that's seven 50.
Norma Nelson (00:22:39):
That's already out the window. That's
Brock Ashby (00:22:40):
Three weeks. I've got to make some money. So I'll do 6:00 AM 9:00 PM Monday to Friday. Friday though I would finish at about 5:00 PM catch a bus to Parramatta and do dishes for my cousin who was a chef from 6:00 PM till midnight. And then Saturday, Sunday, I was doing dishes all day. This is insane. So it was crazy. So I have that practitioner blood where I'll just make it work. Exactly. I'll do whatever I need to. So for personal training, even though it's only five years, it felt like a lifetime. I was just real in it deep. And I think that's what a lot of people online don't have. They will just get an Instagram account post if they have a good body, flex some abs, do an AB workout and fast start getting support. And it's like, and then when you sign up, it's you just
Norma Nelson (00:23:30):
Realise completely terrible coaching. And that's exactly right. But I think people that are practitioners and have come from places of integrity, there's definitely more longevity in that because people that have just pinched an idea and are on the bandwagon just for the hell of it, I don't think there's much longevity in that or integrity in that. So people don't come back. But for me, you've got to practise what you preach. Really, it boils down to that.
Brock Ashby (00:23:58):
Well, you can't fake a handstand. You can take a photo, but you took a video. That's right. That's right. You can't fake that sort
Norma Nelson (00:24:04):
Of stuff. Can't fake it. Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:24:05):
And another thing that I liked that you said was that you were pursuing education or you were pursuing workshops and you were learning from people. Definitely. That's one thing that, so I have this golden rule that I always have to be enrolled in a course. Yeah,
Norma Nelson (00:24:17):
Always be learning. I'm exactly the same. The minute you stop learning, you're pretty much moving backwards. Your scale, you're stagnant.
Brock Ashby (00:24:23):
Yeah. Because if you're not learning someone else's learning. Exactly. And yeah, I don't believe in forward still or backwards. It's either forward or backwards. There's no in between. So I just finished a course literally two days ago, and I don't have a course yet, so I'm breaking my golden rule. But what I'm doing is reading a research review every morning. So I have this, and there's probably about 30 or 40 of them I have to get rid of. So it's about 30, 40 days, and then I'll have to sign up to another course to another one. But one thing that people don't really get is that costs a lot of money, man. Oh my
Norma Nelson (00:24:50):
Goodness. The amount of money I'm invested on, my self education, it's
Brock Ashby (00:24:55):
10 to 20 grand a year. It's insane. And it's like people will be like, that's crazy. That's a holiday and stuff. But that it's important. That feeds into that longevity definitely. Because the average life of a personal trainer is six months. Oh, really?
Norma Nelson (00:25:06):
Yeah. That's a shocking statistic.
Brock Ashby (00:25:08):
And I've been doing it for since 2015, so coming up eight years. That's it. And you've been doing it longer than one
Norma Nelson (00:25:14):
Year. And like you said, just continuously learning just helps you evolve as well. You can't be stationary and stagnant in what you've learned. Okay, I've learned it all. I'm going to stay here. No, there's always something more to learn. Things are always evolving. So yeah, it's something, and it keeps me motivated. You get bored doing the same thing. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:25:32):
You're learning new things from different people. Yeah, that's exactly right. I've learned from people in Australia, in America, absolutely. I want to dive into places like the UK and that as well. They just approach things differently completely. And they have different, completely in America. So in the bodybuilding or athletic world, there's Charles Quin where he has heaps of people that have learned from him. But then I learned from someone, Tony Ji here, who learned from other people around the world, like Ian King, I'm going to search his courses and stuff. You can just learn from so many
Norma Nelson (00:26:01):
Different people. Same as with yoga or hand sands or whatever. And one of the things that I love doing when I travel is go to other yoga studios, discover how, and it's so different from place to place. Yoga in London. The vibe is so different to yoga in Sydney. So every time I go back, I'm like, I come back with so much inspiration. I've learned a different way of doing things. I've learned. So yeah, it's very, very important. And to just draw on different areas of knowledge. There's nothing like it. I get excited about learning, so I never want to stop learning. It just gives me something else to share with my people, the people that I work with, the people, the students that I grow with. So yeah, it's a continuous process of evolution and growth.
Brock Ashby (00:26:43):
I think it changes you as well in the way you coach, because we are just an accumulation of all our thoughts, all our ideas, and all the things that people say to us, our environment. So true. And if that environment's stale, then you become very stale. Very stale. I've seen it. So to take me back to fitness first when I was face-to-face. So I finished in 2020 start of 2020, end of, so 24th of December, Christmas Eve, 2019 was my last day. I took a photo beside the personal trainer wall where you have the cheesy quote and you have what makes you different and your phone number. I took a photo beside it because I was proud of myself that I had left face-to-face because not that it was terrible. I was actually really sad to leave face-to-face training, because as you understand, you love your clients. Of course. I was like, man, I'm sorry guys, I'm going online. I was like, you can come with me online. And they're like, it's not the same. It's not the same. And it was hard. So a couple followed online, and then most people just left
Norma Nelson (00:27:42):
Me, just dropped out. But then you build a whole new client
Brock Ashby (00:27:43):
Base. Yeah, I think it's a different person that coaches online than someone that requires face-to-face training. But it was a sad time for, but the trainers were so stale, so stale, doing the same thing over and over again. Clients the same thing. And they just looked like that whole paycheck to paycheck lifestyle, not just about money, but just getting through the week. And there was no joy in Ming and seeing progress. Hardly any of them had iPads that they were looking at a programme to see how we would apply progressive overload one week, what week are they following? And all this kind of stuff, what their nutrition was. It was crazy, man, I could be here all day complaining about the level of personal training because they actually disgusting. And people just on their phone, not even looking at a programme, social media, texting, taking calls.
(00:28:41):
This guy was once taking a call from a real estate agent because he was doing something with a property. I was like, mate, your client squatting, he's literally not even looking. And then this same trainer, and I will not say his name, he doesn't deserve any air on this podcast, but he would have a charger in the corner and just be looking at it and stuff. Incredible. And I was like, this is blowing my mind. Incredible. The level of education that they were getting was zero. And when I first signed up, I think that's what made me different. You have less time as a personal trainer to go and do courses because you have to train people. And that's why I stepped out of, I wanted to do more courses, but they just didn't make time. Weekends, no, that was time off. There was no extra learning.
(00:29:24):
And I think that's why their business or their revenue, if you want to talk about money wise, will just be the same and their level of growth, because I have this saying, and I'm not just like, oh yeah, let's make money. But I have this saying that, I said to one of this guy that worked for me for a while, he was programming with me and doing online work. The more you learn, the more you earn, of course, just because it gives you capacity. And it's not just about earning more, but you actually teach people much better and your service and your value gets better, and therefore you have to make more money if you're giving more value.
Norma Nelson (00:29:59):
Exactly. That's what it's about. It's giving more value. And yeah, I just dunno how it's like with anything, if you don't continue to pursue things or have an interest in other facets or areas of what you do, you become stale. So it doesn't surprise me that these people are on their phones because they haven't even got the urge to grow within themselves and learn more and they lose their passion, et cetera. But yeah, I think that's definitely a mark of success, is how passionately you feel about what you do. But yeah, the online thing is so interesting. I think Covid has just, it brought a whole new perspective on coaching online. You obviously have a bigger reach all of a sudden. Teachers that I used to practise with when I go back home to England or wherever that I would practise with once or twice a year now, they were just my fingertips any day of the week that I wanted, anytime I wanted, I'm like, this is actually pretty cool. So it was a bit of getting used to there, the whole online teaching. But now it's something that I definitely embrace and I want to grow more as well as the
Brock Ashby (00:31:05):
Facebook. Have you considered doing online training? Absolutely. I was stalking you before the podcast. I was saying, I went all the way back to your first Instagram post and I was like, it's just another tool that you can have. Absolutely. Because I had this time, sorry to keep coming back to this fitness first time, but when I was doing fitness first and I dived head first, I had not much money and I was like, I need to work. So I built up from zero sessions sessions to 60 sessions a week in three months. I was a bit of an obsessed monster, but I had to, I had nothing. And it wasn't because I was like, I just need money. I just need money. It was never that. It was just like, well, it kind of was for a point because if I didn't get money, I would've been flying back to New Zealand saying, Hey dad, you got to spare a bed. But I was like, first of all, I was like, yeah, I need to get through this point where I'm so broke, I can't even do anything. But yeah, I got to 60 sessions, and that's coming from being pretty broke to 60 sessions a week. It's incredible. You feel like you're doing pretty well. You're like, wow, I finally can go out for dinner and stuff. Definitely. And I don't have to do dishes. I was so proud. So my birthday's New Year's Eve and
Norma Nelson (00:32:18):
Capricorn. You are? Yeah, Capricorn, me too. Really. What's your birthday? Third Jan. Third of Jan. Third of
Brock Ashby (00:32:22):
Jan. Nice. So I was working, and then on my birthday I said, this is my last shift I'm doing. I was so proud because man washing dishes, I'll do it, but man, it's not as fun as person to
Norma Nelson (00:32:37):
Train. Oh yeah. I remember back in the day when I was like, my teens part-time job washing dishes. You're like, how can people do this?
Brock Ashby (00:32:44):
You smell terrible. Oh my God. The kitchen. It's like the worst hours chefs throw shit at you. That's
Norma Nelson (00:32:48):
It. Horrible times. But yeah, it puts a lot into perspective. You're like, yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:32:52):
Yeah. So I was so proud to kind of finish that, but once I got through that point and where I was finally making enough to sustain my lifestyle, I was still posting throughout this whole time. But I had this point where as soon as I got to 60 sessions, I kind of thought, is this it? Because I'm always thinking forward. And I was like, man, this is tiring. I was doing 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM so the hours weren't a bother. I was used to the hard work, but I was like, if this is what it looks like from now to when I'm 60, it's not sustainable. It's not
Norma Nelson (00:33:27):
Sustainable.
Brock Ashby (00:33:27):
Imagine if I have a family, I'm never going to see my kid. I'm never going to see my wife. It was really hard to sustain a relationship through that time. And I was like, man. So I was posting online and stuff like that. And then that's when I started picking up my first clients being online. And then I had this transition point where I was doing face-to-face and where I increased my rates because I wanted to make time because some people would drop off so that I could do online training online. And then as I got busier online, I started to charge more. And then I was working half the amount making the same, but then also having the benefit of online training. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, man, Norma should be doing this
Norma Nelson (00:34:02):
Because
Brock Ashby (00:34:03):
You have so much value to give. It's
Norma Nelson (00:34:04):
Definitely on the radar, especially with my handstand stuff. I've been doing a lot of physical workshops face-to face, which is very important obviously. But I found that a lot of my clients that come to these workshops, they want to have something to be able to take away and continue with. So putting together a programme, a concise handstand programme, things like that are things I need to work on.
Brock Ashby (00:34:26):
There's things like you could have handstand programmes that are say one-off things that take them through 12 weeks or Exactly. There's the subscription model where you can have, there's
Norma Nelson (00:34:34):
So much I should talk to you about
Brock Ashby (00:34:36):
It. Yeah, we should have a
Norma Nelson (00:34:36):
Chat after to the podcast. Definitely. Definitely have a chat after,
Brock Ashby (00:34:39):
Just because I think that you have so much to give. Yeah. Thank you. I have a question. Why do you think people should do yoga?
Norma Nelson (00:34:47):
Why do you think people should do yoga? Look,
Brock Ashby (00:34:51):
It's actually quickly, maybe try bring your mic because it's kind, it's
Norma Nelson (00:34:55):
Kind of fading in and out.
Brock Ashby (00:34:56):
Yeah. Okay. Wait, bring the cord around to the front just quickly. Yeah, just so it doesn't keep falling that way. And also because I think the camera's going that way, the mic might cover your face. We don't want to get your beautiful face
Norma Nelson (00:35:08):
Covered. Why should people do yoga? Yoga, yoga really changed my world, to be honest. Yoga is the union of mind, body, and spirit. And especially in the lifestyles we live in this day and age, there's so many pressures and there's so much. The older you get, it feels like you've got more things to more challenges to
Brock Ashby (00:35:35):
Deal with many vibe, many ways.
Norma Nelson (00:35:37):
And ger is just something that centres me. It's something that brings me to the present moment. And sometimes you need that just to block out everything else that's happening in your world, to have moments of quiet and focus, and you can come out of that and see things from a different perspective, if that makes sense. And the yoga practise also really highlights a lot about the person that you are and where you are at in this time of your life. A lot of the things that happen on the mat are very reminiscent of things that happen off the mat. You see people that are impatient, they can lose. Just the way you react to the challenges of the practise itself is a mirror of how you are out off
Brock Ashby (00:36:30):
That mat. That might be why I'm terrified of yoga.
Norma Nelson (00:36:33):
Literally,
Brock Ashby (00:36:34):
I might see where really,
Norma Nelson (00:36:35):
Literally there's so much self-discovery in yoga. It is a discovery of self. The whole practise is about you, good and bad, everything comes up. But also the physical aspects, obviously the healthy aspects of it, the philosophies behind it. So it's become like a lifestyle for me. There's no day that goes past. I'll have one or two days where my body needs to rest and I won't do a physical practise of yoga. But pretty much it's something I do every day of my life in some way, shape or form. Whether it's practising it mentally or physically. So everyone should do yoga. Just to discover a little bit more about themselves, the relationship that you have with yourself, the relationship you have with the rest of the world, and finding those moments of presence is so important because there's so much noise constantly in our lives and our heads and yoga actually is the practise, the physical practise of yoga was set up initially just to prepare the body for meditation or the mind for meditation, because it quietens the mind enough to be able to sit down and meditate and have even more clarity and even more presence.
(00:37:47):
So yeah, everyone should do yoga. A hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (00:37:49):
Yeah. I was talking about this with my wife, actually. I kind of made a joke about her, maybe it was about a month ago, and I said, oh, are you about to do your annual session of yoga?
Norma Nelson (00:37:59):
She does it once a year,
Brock Ashby (00:38:01):
But every week she's like, I want to do yoga. I want to do yoga. Just
Norma Nelson (00:38:06):
Do it. Come to my class.
Brock Ashby (00:38:07):
She's pregnant at the moment. Okay. After. Yeah, she'll get back into it after she's really hanging to do it. But every time she does it, she feels amazing. Of course. And we were talking about it. So we were having this discussion about sustainability, and I'd love to talk to you about it. Not really regarding yoga, but also just people entering older age where sarcopenia or loss of muscle.
Norma Nelson (00:38:30):
Am I going to be able to do a handstand at 70?
Brock Ashby (00:38:32):
Yeah. This sort of stuff comes. I think you will. I
Norma Nelson (00:38:36):
Think I'll,
Brock Ashby (00:38:39):
So she loves it every time, but she said it's not really physical, it's more like how you feel. And she actually said the same thing to get you into meditation. Absolutely. So she was saying that, and I was like, yeah, I guess. Well, I have no real experience. The only yoga I've done is minimal. First time I fell asleep, I wasn't really focused at the end where I was lying on my back holding my stomach. And the lady was saying, the sun is warming your heart and your belly and stuff. And I was just gone. I was just like, that's the last thing I heard. I was like, see ya. I
Norma Nelson (00:39:13):
Was just, it's really funny because most people's first experience of yoga generally isn't that great, actually.
Brock Ashby (00:39:19):
They're like, oh god, it wasn't that great, to be honest.
Norma Nelson (00:39:20):
Yeah, it wasn't. Most people, and I think for me, when you can spot a beginner a mile away, obviously right from the map, just looking everywhere's right from the mat that they carry into the studio. So the fact that with every key that you give for a posture, they're looking around trying to look at the person next to you're like, okay. And then they might have an idea of what yoga is. The worst thing. Actually something that's really funny that girls do all the time. And I'm like, why do you do this? I'll find some of my students that are females, they'll bring a date to yoga, right? Oh my word. And more
Brock Ashby (00:39:56):
Often not. That's the's fault for showing up.
Norma Nelson (00:39:59):
More often than not, it's a big hunky guy full of muscles. And he's like, yeah, I'll do yoga. Comes in sweating bullets. After five minutes, the flexibility is not there. His ego is completely destroyed. I can relate. And they never come back. I'm like, why would you do that? You just
Brock Ashby (00:40:15):
Set enough to hate yoga for the rest of his life.
Norma Nelson (00:40:19):
But yeah, aside from that, the struggle is real. When you first start doing yoga, nobody's completely flexible. Most people aren't flexible, they're not strong, and that's why they do it in the first place. But if you can push through those initial months of, so obviously start from an essentials programme, start from the beginning. Don't just jump into an open class or an advanced class because you'll never go back. You'll be so disheartened by looking around at what other people can do. And you can't. You won't come back to that class. So for me, especially when I see these beginners, those are the people I need to encourage even more. You
Brock Ashby (00:40:55):
Need to
Norma Nelson (00:40:55):
Pour that out. I need to just reinforce the fact that it's okay. I was there. Trust me. I remember a time where I couldn't touch my toes. I looked around, I was like, there is no way on earth I'll be able to do all these things. And look at me now seven years into practise, becoming a teacher, this, that, and the other. I've gone way beyond all of my expectations. I remember my first class, I was, this body conscious had a T-shirt on some trackies. Trackies. Yeah. I was just So, not even leggings. No, not even leggings. This person that can touch their toes and this, that, and the other. So it's been a mad journey, Hey. And to realise the capabilities or the potential within myself has been, it changes. You think, if I can do this, I can literally do anything. And that's something that is so prevalent in my mind when I teach, just to remember that beginner mindset. It's so important. It's so important to just, because as we evolve in our practise, it's easy to also forget what it feels like to be a beginner. So yeah, that's something I'm very, very conscious of in my classes.
Brock Ashby (00:42:02):
Yeah, I can definitely relate. So Leah Simmons, I did her class on Monday. Oh,
Norma Nelson (00:42:08):
First time? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:42:10):
Yeah. First time doing a kayak class.
Norma Nelson (00:42:11):
It's insane. isn. It's insane.
Brock Ashby (00:42:12):
It was close enough to yoga or Pilates for me, and sweating bullets me straight away. Oh my goodness. It was crazy. So we had to do this thing. If you're listening, I'm kind of doing, your
Norma Nelson (00:42:23):
Arms are out. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:42:24):
No, no, no. So it was elbows in like this, and then you had to reach up and
Norma Nelson (00:42:32):
I think inhale. It's
Brock Ashby (00:42:32):
This.
Norma Nelson (00:42:33):
Yeah, yeah. I remember doing it.
Brock Ashby (00:42:35):
Oh man.
Norma Nelson (00:42:37):
Did you do the one where you have
Brock Ashby (00:42:39):
Your arms out?
Norma Nelson (00:42:40):
Oh my God. I was
Brock Ashby (00:42:40):
Like, I'll get to that. To I'll, I'll get to that. So this one, first of all, my traps are still sore today. Traps. I was
Norma Nelson (00:42:48):
Like,
Brock Ashby (00:42:49):
I can shrug 200, I've got strong shoulders. All this kind of,
Norma Nelson (00:42:54):
That was a mind ever matter situation right
Brock Ashby (00:42:56):
There. I went straight up, straight down, first two minutes, breeze. But then I started slowing and then it felt like I was overhead pressing, like 90 ki kilos, 90 kilo. What is this? And then so there's these older ladies beside me and they
Norma Nelson (00:43:09):
Can do it.
Brock Ashby (00:43:10):
I'm sitting here going, just shaking like an
Norma Nelson (00:43:15):
Old car. That whole Kyra experience is next level, isn't it? I think I cried by the end of it because I'm so emotional. It's so much stuff been was turned up in me.
Brock Ashby (00:43:24):
She was saying it's a metaphor for life. Oh man. It's not even a physical experience. And I was like, that's so true. This was like, this isn't hard. I'm doing it now. But it was like my mental chat, are you going to keep doing this? Are you going to put your hands up again? Are you going to try and keep that speed? And even though I was in my head, I was still doing the same speed. But in real life it was like slow motion.
Norma Nelson (00:43:45):
That's what I mean. You've got to pull those powers of mind over matter. It really tested me on so many levels, but I loved it. It was an experience
Brock Ashby (00:43:52):
In itself. So to jump to the arms outpost out. So we did the breathing and then we did a workout parts squat side. Planks. Planks. I didn't find that too hard. So challenging except for when we were doing the single leg glute bridge. And then one leg was going up, pointing down up. I was like, oh, my glutes are on fire. And she's like, legs straight. But I'm so tight. My legs bent. You
Norma Nelson (00:44:13):
Can't straightening.
Brock Ashby (00:44:13):
Yeah, I'm trying straighten my leg to the roof, but it's super bent. And I was like, oh, this looks ridiculous. So yeah, we get to this point where we're sitting there
Norma Nelson (00:44:21):
And it's right at the end as well, isn't it? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:44:23):
Arms out to the side. There's pinkies to the sky. So you're twisting your hand up. And two minutes, maybe minutes. I was okay.
Norma Nelson (00:44:33):
And then
Brock Ashby (00:44:33):
It kicked.
Norma Nelson (00:44:33):
I couldn't
Brock Ashby (00:44:34):
Handle it. I didn't know when to open my eyes or close my eyes. It was like my first class. I was like, are we meditating? Are we
Norma Nelson (00:44:42):
Taking
Brock Ashby (00:44:43):
Little pee? See, I was looking around, what are you doing?
Norma Nelson (00:44:45):
Is everyone still got their arms up?
Brock Ashby (00:44:47):
Sometimes I might just stand there and people had their arms up, but I had to bring them in and then bring them out again. Shake it out. Because my shoulders were on fire.
Norma Nelson (00:44:56):
I experienced exactly the same thing at one point. I was like, oh my goodness, how much longer is this going to take? And I'm on my hands all the time. I hand hands on my feet. Thats true. But still, this was next level. But what an experience. Everyone should experience ky, I think.
Brock Ashby (00:45:13):
And it was during the time she was doing motivational chat through chats the whole way throughout, whole way. She's like, don't give up. You are better than this. You can do anything. You can do anything. I love and love her. And I was actually telling her, I was like, this is what it felt like. So I spent from probably 14 years old to 22 at church heavily. I was like, it felt like a church session. I was like, my hands were warm. The Holy Spirit was touching my hands.
Norma Nelson (00:45:40):
It's like an out
Brock Ashby (00:45:41):
Of body experience. And I was like, whoa, this is powerful.
Norma Nelson (00:45:45):
Absolutely. It is. Powerful stuff.
Brock Ashby (00:45:46):
Yeah, very powerful. And one thing I said was when we were trying to meditate and our arms were out and stuff like this, I had so many thoughts in my head, and there was many decisions that I had to make that I've been putting away for a while. And mainly to do with Team Rock, Ashby, the business and life and all that kind of stuff. So I'm also having a baby in January, so there's congrats. There's things going through my head. Thanks so much. And I made 10 decisions on the spot. I was like, we'll do this, we'll do that. We'll do that. I was like, I kind of needed this emptiness to get these things out of the way. Exactly. But I felt like I couldn't meditate because I had these thoughts in my way. Exactly. And there was so many of them. I kind of needed that time to tick them off and so I could be empty. So you could some space. That's
Norma Nelson (00:46:23):
It. Space, make space for that.
Brock Ashby (00:46:25):
I'm always like, I need something to do.
Norma Nelson (00:46:28):
I'm
Brock Ashby (00:46:28):
Exactly the same. And even when it's silent, I'm like, let's puts some music on in the background. And my wife is just sit there in silence and I'm like, but let's just put some music on. Yeah, why not? I love music.
Norma Nelson (00:46:39):
Yeah, we sound like very similar beings in that sense. And that's one of the reasons that meditation is something that I've recently gone into as well.
Brock Ashby (00:46:47):
So how do you meditate? I'm legit curious. I have this thing that I do, and I'll tell you after, but
Norma Nelson (00:46:55):
What you, so meditation, that's the next, even though I came into yoga and the whole calming thing and presence and all this stuff, I'm still such a busy body. I need to be doing something. If I'm not doing something, like you said, listening to music, my mind is always busy. I'm like, when is this going to slow down? And at some point I discovered Vedic meditation. Sorry, could you say that again? It's called Vedic Meditation. Vedic Vedic. It's based on the Vedas, which is an old yogic script, basically just teaching you how to live a good life, et cetera. But yeah, Vedic meditation is a different, there's so many styles of meditation, out, breath counts, all this kind of stuff, focusing, visualisation, all this stuff. I've tried all of them, but I wasn't feeling them. It's not something that, so anyway, at a point in my life I kept getting almost like messages when things happen that are not just coincidence, you feel like a message is coming to you've many.
(00:47:50):
And actually in Vedic meditation, they call it the charm. It's called the charm. And it basically means you are listening to your instincts. Your instincts are open and there are messages coming to you to sort of lead you in a certain direction. Messages coming from who, it's almost like signs in your life opportunities. It's like if you put something out there or you are present enough to know that there are things, your life journey is leading you in a certain way. And I just kept being surrounded or having encounters with people that kept talking about Vedic meditation. I'm like, what is this? But more than 3, 4, 5 people I'd come across. And somewhere in our conversation, Vedic meditation would come up. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to look into this Vedic meditation. And from what I can understand at the time, it's based on the Vedic scriptures, but also the technique was based on focusing on a sound and a mantra where you repeat the sound repetitively for 20 minutes.
Brock Ashby (00:48:53):
Like a chance.
Norma Nelson (00:48:54):
Like a chance or a word or something. So I looked into it. I was like, who does Vedic meditation in Sydney? And I found a place in Bondi. It's one of the biggest meditation centres in Sydney. And lo and behold, they were starting a course the next day. I know. And I'm challenge, here we go, challenge on. And that's what I mean by when you sort of delve a little bit deeper into Vedic meditation, the charm, that sort of instinctive pull that you have towards something. And at that time, it was just meant to be that I went down that path and it was something that was extremely helpful to me, especially over covid, where there was a lot of isolation. I was in my mind a lot. And it was a way of just bringing your awareness and presence to one thing. And really, that's what meditation is. When you think about meditation, you think about not thinking of anything. Actually, no. It's a one point focus. You are
Brock Ashby (00:49:52):
Focusing. Yeah, that's what I thought it was. And that's why I always struggled. I was like, I can't just sit here and think of nothing.
Norma Nelson (00:49:57):
That's right. You have to think of something. So they give
Brock Ashby (00:50:00):
You word. Yeah, you need like a distraction, but the right
Norma Nelson (00:50:02):
Distraction. Exactly. So you start vedic meditation, your sort of teacher will give you a mantra. A word doesn't really mean anything, just it sounds like you
Brock Ashby (00:50:12):
Can't word of the day,
Norma Nelson (00:50:14):
But it doesn't mean anything. You can't tell anyone that word. Nobody else knows that word apart from me and my teacher. And you're supposed to go away, sit down for 20 minutes, and they dispel all those myths of like, oh, you have to be upright and you just sit in a comfortable position. You sit in a comfortable position, you close your eyes and you just say this word for 20 minutes out loud, no in your head. But it's challenging trying to say any word for 20 minutes and see how the minute you're like, yep, this is good, I'm getting into it. And then within two minutes you're thinking about dinner, you're thinking about your partner, you're thinking about what you've got to do tomorrow, dah, dah, dah. And then you're like, oh, I've got to pull back in. And it's that constant journey of pulling yourself back into that present moment, back into that word.
(00:50:59):
And over time you have moments of just cleanness, whether it's 30 seconds where there's no, and over time you actually forget about the mantra as well, and that's where that clarity comes. So it's such an interesting and definitely the best form of meditation in terms of what resonated with me and what felt like it worked. Something that I could discipline myself enough to do every day for 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes in the afternoon. You come out, you come out clearer. There's space to look at things from a clearer perspective rather than your mind boggling with all kinds of thoughts and you're trying to solve a problem, but your head is all over the place. There's just so much more clarity, so much more presence, calmness. So yeah, meditation is something that I'm definitely trying to pursue more. I'm going on a course in December that's purely on VA meditation. But yeah, meditation is a good thing. And yoga prepares you for meditation.
Brock Ashby (00:52:01):
Yeah. Is that something that you'd look at putting into your work?
Norma Nelson (00:52:05):
Look a part of the yoga practise, it's not uncommon to go to a yoga practise and then at the end a teacher will offer meditation.
Brock Ashby (00:52:13):
It's really short though. There's not much time's you fit that into 45 minutes.
Norma Nelson (00:52:17):
For me, for meditation is more like my personal thing. It's not something that I've gotten to a stage where I feel like I have enough knowledge to share or perhaps want to share. It's just something for me. It's helped
Brock Ashby (00:52:30):
You through personal things. Yeah,
Norma Nelson (00:52:32):
Absolutely. It's my kind of go-to whether there comes a time where I might want to share that with the world or feel like I should share it. Definitely. We'll see. Time will tell. There was a time where I started yoga. I'd never imagined that I'd be teaching yoga or have followers where
Brock Ashby (00:52:49):
People are like, I want to do
Norma Nelson (00:52:51):
This. So you just don't dunno where you life path will take you. But for now, it's something that I know that I need for my own personal development, for my mental health. So yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:53:04):
I have this thing that I do and I started actually when I started going to church, so I used to just wake up and pray every day. It was my first thing and I didn't do the Lord's Prayer. I didn't find that that meant anything to me. I was just like, that's just something that people say at funerals, at weddings. It's just a thing. It's not Brock's thing. I wrote this list on a piece of paper and I was always kind of addicted, maybe addicted to gratitude, and I was so important. So the main reason I went to church or maybe sought something out that was bigger than life or bigger than what I was going through was I lost my mom when I was young. So I was a bit looking for something. I was definitely open and maybe charm. Charm charmed me into going to church. So my friend invited me to go watch him dance. It was at a church. I was like, he was a rumper.
Norma Nelson (00:53:56):
This is brilliant.
Brock Ashby (00:53:57):
A rumper. This is
Norma Nelson (00:53:58):
Brilliant.
Brock Ashby (00:53:59):
Christian Crumps a thing. I'm not sure if you know what's
Norma Nelson (00:54:01):
Christian Crump,
Brock Ashby (00:54:02):
Christian Crump. Get out of here at the Point. So shout out to me huddle. He was actually on a podcast. Okay, I'll
Norma Nelson (00:54:10):
Have to listen
Brock Ashby (00:54:10):
To it. Still a great friend. And now he's in New Zealand's biggest band playing keyboard. Incredible. But he got me into church and he was like, yeah man, we're just doing a crump thing. You want to come watch? I was like, I've got nothing better to do. I'll come watch this. So he crumped at church and I was like, oh, this is quite cool. And then he's like, oh man, why don't you come Sunday? He was like, Christian. And he was like, come. And he was a great friend at school. And I was like, sweet man. So I went and I sat at the back on the heaters. I was like, I'm cool. I'm too cool for this right End the session. I'm crying and I'm melting. And I was like, whoa. So pretty much from then on, I was in church for a while. I got involved in singing, writing songs, music and all that kind of stuff. And I was doing gratitude and I was like, so I had this list. I would say thanks first for everything that I absolutely, my dad, my brother, my friends. And then I just had this big prayer list, the things that I would pray for. And it was just like it started with that, my friends and all that stuff. And then it went to a different place of the things that I had. So simple things, clothes on my body,
Norma Nelson (00:55:19):
It's so important.
Brock Ashby (00:55:21):
Food on the table, money in my wallet, smile on my face, that's it. Breath in my lungs. Real simple things.
Norma Nelson (00:55:27):
Absolutely. And for me as well, this is something that from a very young age my mom instilled in me and three times of challenge when things aren't really going well, it's so important to, instead of looking at what you don't have, look at what you do have. Be grateful for the things that you do have. And that's something that's been instilled in me from a very, very young age. And I'm grateful for my mom instilling that kind of knowledge in me just to keep things real.
Brock Ashby (00:55:53):
I think people have lost
Norma Nelson (00:55:54):
That. Oh,
Brock Ashby (00:55:55):
Totally. People like gratitude for sure.
Norma Nelson (00:55:57):
Totally. And it just sets you straight in your head. That's definitely something On a daily basis I try and remind myself of things that I'm grateful for rather than focus on things I don't have right
Brock Ashby (00:56:12):
Now, which is very easy as well, especially with social media. It's very easy to see what people have completely that you don't have that you would like, of course. But yeah, it's a real superpower. And it started off with, I'm grateful to breathe today because once you've seen your mother breathe, her last take, last breath, breath, the value of a breath, and from doing breath work yourself, you know how important it is. But to acknowledge that you had a million breaths today is crazy. So it would start from there and I would work through all the things that I had. And then I would actually, and I don't know if this is meditation still, but it was on my prayer list. I would pray for the things that I wanted. So I wanted to, when I was at church, I want to be number one singer. I want to write amazing songs that people remember.
(00:57:02):
I want to be a generous person because the worship pastor at the church, Nathan Phillips, who's a second dad to me, still to this day, was the most generous person. Incredible. He would never stop shouting me food. And it always made me feel like guilty. But that guilt turned into I want to be like him. You be generous. I was like, I want to be generous. And then I was asking my friends, and especially Nate at the time, like, man, how do you be generous? I don't have money. And he was like, it's more than money acts, acts of service. But also with the little money you have, if you do want to be generous with that. There's a quote that I love from the Bible that I can't really remember what it is, but it's like he who is given little will be given many type of thing.
(00:57:41):
Or if you're entrusted with little, you'll be entrusted with many type of things. So what you do with what little you have, matters, matters, matters so much. Then you'll be entrusted with more if you treat it with respect. Exactly. If you have not much money and you just spend it on shitty things and just do selfish acts, then I don't think you'll ever be entrusted with heaps because then what's going to happen then you're just, you just squander it. Yeah, you'll do nothing good with it. So I was like on that, and then I would finish it with all these proverbs. So my favourite quote is lazy hands, make for poverty, diligent hands bring for wealth. And that is Proverbs 10, four, I think. And that was my mantra probably still to this day in my life, it's what I follow. And it's not necessarily about being wealthy, it's more so about if you have lazy hands, not much is going to happen.
(00:58:29):
And if you have diligent hands, a lot can happen. Lot can happen. The possibility can do anything you want. Yes. And it does ring true with finance too, but it is more so wealth and relationships, wealth and happiness, wealth and fulfilment and all to aspects of your life, relationships. So I really love that. So I guess that was my meditation. And I think to come back to me focusing on something, I think that's why that works for me. And I still do it today because it gives me something to focus on. Absolutely. And I actually have a big list in my phone now on my notes, and when I'm too busy, I say, Hey, Siri, can you read out my notes? And I feel like, oh no, here Siri's reacted on my laptop. Oh no. And I ask her to read it out. I'm just to reinforce it if I'm driving and it's like, thank you for your dad, your brother, amazing. Read it
Norma Nelson (00:59:19):
Out. But it's the power of writing things down and visualisation and all that kind of stuff. It's very important. I remember every look, I still do it every year. I have a list of things that I want to achieve by the end of the year or aims or goals. And it just gives you something to work towards to feel like you are, there's that sense of achievement after as well.
Brock Ashby (00:59:40):
Direction. Sorry. I actually think it gives you the eyes or the vision to see the charm. Of course. So I think with that Vedic meditation, and this is what I think my meditation gives me, is I'm casting out what I want and the things I want and the things I'm grateful for and stuff like that. So I can actually see it because I'm aware of it, of course. But I think if I didn't bring my attention to things that I wanted, things that I wanted to be, people that I loved, I wouldn't see it because I'm not aware of it. Of course.
Norma Nelson (01:00:11):
And you're manifesting it essentially by having that in your sight, carrying that journey through to manifesting that initial thought or idea.
Brock Ashby (01:00:20):
You're be looking for opportunities for it to be there, but I think if you don't meditate or if you don't have this idea of what you want, the charm will be there, but you won't see it. You
Norma Nelson (01:00:28):
Won't see it.
Brock Ashby (01:00:28):
Exactly. That's what I was thinking.
Norma Nelson (01:00:30):
You so succinctly put it, and that's what the charm is. That's what it goes back to, that instinctual. So present that you can feel that energy and the direction that you're, I mean, in life we have choice. So many choices and we can, with whatever we have, we have the ability to do good or bad with it or excel or not be lazy, be hardworking. Life is all about choices. But also when you are on a path and you're pretty sure about the path that you want to go, there are always things that will come to you to help you to dissuade you perhaps. And it's just being present enough to see the right signs and follow them, take those opportunities that come. And if you are not present and you're not aware, you're going to miss a billion opportunities
Brock Ashby (01:01:18):
Or take the wrong ones
Norma Nelson (01:01:18):
Or take the wrong ones,
Brock Ashby (01:01:19):
Right, because great ones, and there's sure there's a charm and then there's a negative sort of charm. Absolutely. I'm not sure what the word would be, but Absolutely,
Norma Nelson (01:01:26):
Absolutely. Because you could argue that, okay, well charm made me a drug addict or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I was attracted, and that's not a good charm. So yeah, again, it's all about choices and being present enough to make the right choices and the choices that will help you evolve as a human and help you evolve in the way that you are of service to the world. So yeah, there's so much in it, and it's something that I've literally just started getting my hands into over the past year and stuff, and I'm interested to see how I evolve through this and what it brings into my world.
Brock Ashby (01:02:00):
Yeah, it's something I'm definitely pursuing too. I have that gratitude list, and that's been my thing that I've had. I literally put my ideal person that I wanted to marry when I was 14, and
Norma Nelson (01:02:13):
You've married that person, look
Brock Ashby (01:02:15):
At that. But it took me a few. I thought it was someone else once, and I thought it was this person, but I kept it in that list and now I've taken it out
Norma Nelson (01:02:25):
Because you
Brock Ashby (01:02:25):
Found it and replaced it with gratitude. But I was like, I want a woman that makes me better. I want a woman that's this. I want a woman that's that. And it wasn't like I wanted her to look like this or look like that because that it was just, that's pretty, that's just whatever it, it's, it's
Norma Nelson (01:02:37):
Very shallow.
Brock Ashby (01:02:39):
It's the stuff that sustains that counts, of course. So it's definitely helped me to attain things as well. Not that my wife is something that I attain, but it's cast that knit out so that I can see the charm. So I definitely want to see how my meditation type of adapts as well.
Norma Nelson (01:02:56):
You should definitely check it out then. And a lot of it's online as well. You don't have to. I started doing it online. It was in the middle of Covid that
Brock Ashby (01:03:04):
I just, but 20 minutes scares me. 20 minutes. That's the thing
Norma Nelson (01:03:07):
Where 20. I know, but 20 minutes
Brock Ashby (01:03:09):
I could
Norma Nelson (01:03:10):
Do mine. It seems like an exceptionally long period of time, but I invite you or just to give it a go accept. Just try. Yeah, no, seriously, go and check out the guys at Bondi Meditation Centre and just the philosophy that comes around it as well. So they have these sessions where once a week or twice a week, they have group meditations and over covid, it actually became an online group thing. So 40, 50, 60 people would line, would sign in and we would meditate together for 20 minutes. So complete silence, 20 minutes and then an hour. And after we would talk about things, it was just discussion, open discussion, anything to do with veers or vedic meditation or things that came up in your meditation. And that was actually a very valuable thing to be a part of because you just, I don't know, we could talk about anything. You could talk about anything, what the challenges that come up in your meditation, why 20 minutes as opposed to five or this or that. And that's part of it as well, just knowing so much more the depth of this style of meditation. But yeah, I really think you would get
Brock Ashby (01:04:16):
A lot out that Yeah, I'd like to give it a go. Yeah, I think I would get a lot
Norma Nelson (01:04:18):
Out of it. I think
Brock Ashby (01:04:19):
Emptying of the brain for me is a very good thing. It's very important. So I wanted to come back to a question around what my wife and I were talking about in terms of sustainability and a training format that can last the years. Because I feel like there's a lot of, so I'm mainly doing online personal training and people trying to build muscle and lose fat. And I come from a very sustainable way. I'm like, we're not training twice a day. We're not doing crazy diet things that won't last longer than two days or three days. If you can do the diet now,
Norma Nelson (01:04:53):
You can do it
Brock Ashby (01:04:53):
Six months later, one year later, five years later, then that's the diet we're going to do. We're just going to make small tweaks and all that kind of stuff. So sustainability is always at the forefront of my mind. And I was talking with my wife around, I was like, imagine weightlifting three times a week doing yoga two times in the middle. I was like, is that a super sustainable programme? I was like, is that the most sustainable programme in the world? Because, so in my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd love to actually chat to you about it with yoga, if you did that every day, I was like, is that enough stimulus for the muscles to increase bone density enough to help protect them as they get older? So I'm talking like 60, 70, or maybe even
Norma Nelson (01:05:34):
Fifties. I think the oldest yoga teacher that's still alive actually is in her nineties. And you should see the things that this woman can still do with her body. It's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. I'm very, very confident that this is a modality that I will probably be doing till for the rest of my life. It's not like weightlifting that's so challenging on the body and so demanding on the body that there's a shelf life attached to that. And with the yoga practise as well, obviously there's different levels of yoga. There's so many different levels of yoga. Maybe at the age of 90, I might not be able to, my repertoire might not be as huge in terms of the things I can do, but I'll still be able to do a lot. And most importantly, it's the practise of yoga that keeps your body and mind healthy. It's not something that's supposed to be an experience of suffering. You are not supposed to be on a yoga mat suffering in any way, shape or form.
Brock Ashby (01:06:32):
That's the only experience I've had on a yoga mat.
Norma Nelson (01:06:34):
Well, maybe
Brock Ashby (01:06:35):
That comes trying to touch my toes. That's
Norma Nelson (01:06:36):
Suffering, man. And that's it. This is something I preach about all the time in my class. Yoga is not about suffering. It's not about looking at the person next to you who can pretty much lay their chest flat on the floor by folding forwards, and you can barely touch your toes. And it's your ego that is going to push you to that place where you're like, well, if they can do it, I can do it. You don't know their history. You don't know how often they've practised. You are comparing, and it's your ego actually that's getting in the way. You're not listening to your body anymore. If you're feeling something, I say a lot, especially when we're kind of in certain yoga poses, you've got to fold forwards. And it's that point where you see all the guys that are inflexible, they can't touch their toes and they're like trying so hot.
(01:07:15):
I'm like, look, don't compare yourself to the person over there who is looking like they can sleep in a fold seriously. But that person is actually struggling to feel anything because they've gone way beyond their threshold of flexibility. You can't touch your toes, but you can feel all the feels the hamstrings burning up. So you should be lucky, actually, you are in the better position. But yeah, it's all about balance as well. And just listening to your body, essentially listening to your body. So anyone that has a terrible experience of yoga is probably down to the fact that they're in the wrong class, maybe not a great teacher, maybe not listening to your body and knowing where your threshold lies.
Brock Ashby (01:07:59):
So sorry to jump in. So do you think yoga is on its own, something that's going to be sustainable all the way through?
Norma Nelson (01:08:05):
Definitely. I think so. Definitely
Brock Ashby (01:08:07):
Ask me. Yeah, because my only question was, and I have older people in my life that are fragile, and I'm like, I wish they lifted weights. And it doesn't. I'm not talking squatting a hundred kilos, I'm just, I shouldn't say lifting weights, resistance training, whether that's body weight, whether that's bands, whether that's a one kg, dumbo, I don't care. But I'm just something to make you a bit more robust, a bit more, less fragile so that you can actually just walk. Exactly. Or kneel down without like, oh,
Norma Nelson (01:08:37):
And that's it. And that's it. Such
Brock Ashby (01:08:38):
A victory does. This
Norma Nelson (01:08:39):
Is exactly what yoga does. It also reverses the effects of modern day living. People that come into our classes and they're hunched over, they can't open up their chest because our lives are on computers and fricking mobile phones. We're hunched over all the time. And I see old people that have had no experience of yoga or anything like that, and I feel sorry for them because their lives have dictated how their bodies have become in their old age. You wish
Brock Ashby (01:09:03):
They did it 20 years earlier, 10 years earlier.
Norma Nelson (01:09:06):
Exactly. And that's one thing I'm so grateful for that I found yoga earlier in my life because I know that this is something I can take with me for the whole duration. Like I said, one of the oldest yoga teachers in the world is at the age of 95, and she's still doing her thing, still looking great, still being able to move. So yeah, definitely yoga is one of those modalities that I think is definitely sustainable for the duration.
Brock Ashby (01:09:31):
Interesting.
Norma Nelson (01:09:32):
Yeah, definitely a hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (01:09:35):
Quick question before we do three questions. Just to wrap it up. What is the key to nailing a handstand
Norma Nelson (01:09:41):
Practise? People always say to me, oh, how do you get so good? You have to put the work in technique. You obviously have to know the right technique, but you've got to put in the hard yards. You have to. And I went through a lot of, not pain, but a lot of frustration. Mental pain.
Brock Ashby (01:10:00):
It's such a skill.
Norma Nelson (01:10:01):
It's such a skill.
Brock Ashby (01:10:02):
I try to think of the assistance and perseverance of the equivalent doing your first pushup or doing your first pullup. Those are amazing feats, but handstands like a next level.
Norma Nelson (01:10:11):
Oh my God. And for me, my handstand journey, when my handstands really, when that journey really began was when after I did a eight day immersion with one of the greatest handstand coaches, and it was an immersion in Thailand over several days, and this guy broke me everything I thought I knew I was an emerging handstand up. My handstand looked terrible. I couldn't hold it for very long, and he just broke everything down. I had to stop from scratch. So
Brock Ashby (01:10:43):
How
Norma Nelson (01:10:43):
Frustrating my ego was destroyed, how frustrating. I was like, but I can balance myself, and now you're telling me that it's not good and I have to start again. And then all of a sudden I couldn't balance because learning all these new things and my body wasn't used to it. And then I came back from the immersion, and then Covid hit, COVID hit. We were in lockdown. So what did I do? Spent months in my bedroom hand standing literally hours, hours a day on my hands, doing videos, assessing my progress. And yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:11:16):
I'd love to see those videos. I think you should post them. I
Norma Nelson (01:11:18):
Probably should actually. You
Brock Ashby (01:11:20):
Should. This is day one of the pandemic. Yeah,
Norma Nelson (01:11:22):
That's such a good idea. That's such a good idea. But yeah, I immersed myself into, but it's something that I really was so passionate about nailing. I was like, man, now that I know the technique, I want to know what, I want to know how far I can take this. But at the end of the day, it's all about practise. You can come to one of my workshops and I'll teach you all the tools, but you've got to go away and do them. You've got to do these drills. You've got to be disciplined enough to come back with every pain point that you have. And every day is different. Today might be like, oh, mentally I'm just not up for it. Or My wrists have had enough, or my shoulders have had enough. And you've just got to push. And as you are kind of conditioning your body to be upside down in a steady way all the time, and then you start learning about dynamic movements upside down as well.
(01:12:08):
There's a lot of pain points that you'll go through. I had so many instances where my shoulder was out, this was out. That was out probably because I was doing it too much. But also your body getting used to new things, moving in different ways and holding yourself up in different ways. But yeah, you've got to put in the hard work. It's as simple as that. If you want to do a better handstand, you got to do more handstands. If you want to do a better wheel, you got to do more wheels. Simple as that. So there's a lot of discipline involved.
Brock Ashby (01:12:36):
Yeah, a hundred percent. Simple is really hard for people to grasp because they almost want something so complicated to justify why they can't do it or why they can't get better. If it's complicated, it's like, oh, I can't do that because of this, this, but you decide, just practise. Exactly. And then they have to take ownership, which is hard. It's very hard, but necessary,
Norma Nelson (01:12:53):
But very, very necessary. And I think that's where the yoga practise has helped me as well, that sense of discipline. They call it tapas in yoga, that tap sense of just discipline, regardless of the weather, regardless of how you're feeling today, get on that mat, do your thing. Yeah, your body might not feel like doing this today, but maybe this will be enough today, but just do it.
Brock Ashby (01:13:17):
That's also why I like, so I do Brazilian. Oh, nice. I'm still a white belt. I've been doing it for about a year. But that's the difference between a white belt and a black belt. It's practise.
Norma Nelson (01:13:26):
Exactly.
Brock Ashby (01:13:27):
It's technique. But ultimately it's showing up. It's showing up. That's the word. It's practise, practise, practise. And they still win with the same submissions. They've just practised it so many more times. A thousand times, 10,000 times. That's right. And we're learning the same thing. And I'm like, that's not possible, man. I'm doing it. But it doesn't work like that. But it's just practise. It's just a more practised person, like a white belt. And a black belt is just literally how much work, little practise to 10 to 12 years of practises.
Norma Nelson (01:13:55):
You become a master of what you do. It's like anything though in life, whether you're an exceptional pianist, you didn't get there by just putting your feet up and practising half an hour a day, you'll find that most people that have excelled in their craft or their skill have put in the hard yards. They're almost an obsessive point.
Brock Ashby (01:14:15):
But I think you also have to be obsessed to actually be good at something. Of course. I think people, actually, this might be a bit of a tangent, but I think people are scared to be obsessed with something. Then people are like, oh, you're too crazy. You are. But I feel like there has to be a point in time where you are crazy to actually get really good at things. I've been crazy about quite a lot of things, but out of that time, I grew a lot. So when I was obsessed with music, I went to jazz school and I majored in jazz guitar. Amazing. I was obsessed with practise. I used to practise seven to eight hours a day, just scales, right? So boring. I hated it. But at the same time, I loved it. I was getting so much better. I was remembering them. And then when I was doing a solo over a jazz piece, I was like, oh, that looks familiar. I can just slide into here. And then, oh, that scale looks similar here. I can just slide into here. If I didn't know where the scales were, I would just
Norma Nelson (01:15:06):
Get, you wouldn't be able to do that. That's
Brock Ashby (01:15:07):
Right. But it took that seven to eight hours a day of practise to actually know where the scales are, know what it sounded like, know what the song sounded like. And that's just a small example, but I feel like you
Norma Nelson (01:15:17):
Have to be obsessed for
Brock Ashby (01:15:19):
People that do stuff half an hour a day. And that's not, I know we live busy lives, but it's not going to cut. You have to make sacrifice somewhere and should be a little
Norma Nelson (01:15:26):
Bit obsessed. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I have no shame in saying that. I'm obsessed with hand sands. It's something I love doing. I get upside down every single day. Every single day. Any excuse. But yeah, I completely agree with you. You have to have a level of obsession,
Brock Ashby (01:15:44):
I think. Yeah, a hundred percent. So last three questions we've been going for. How long have we been going for now? I'll let you go soon. No,
Norma Nelson (01:15:51):
No, no. I'm just like, I can't remember. What are they going to be? I'm scared.
Brock Ashby (01:15:55):
An hour 15, I think. What's one thing you do every day to become better? So this is the better with Brock podcast. Yeah, I know. I love self-development. I love getting better, as you can probably tell. So what's something you do every day to get better?
Norma Nelson (01:16:08):
For me, it's something I do every day to get better, as in to better myself as a human is yoga, not unfortunately, but it's become a lifestyle for me. It's not a job. I didn't start it with the intention of it being a job. It was to make me better in so many ways. And also we've touched on before, something that was definitely I do every day to feel or to put perspective into things. It's practising gratitude. Every day before I go to sleep, I reflect on my day and find something that I've been not fine, but acknowledge something that I'm grateful for. And yeah, it's just puts your life into perspective a lot. Like I said previously, focusing on the things that you do have as opposed to things that you don't have,
Brock Ashby (01:17:03):
Which is simple but
Norma Nelson (01:17:04):
Hard. It's simple but hard.
Brock Ashby (01:17:05):
Yeah. I have a question around you doing now, yoga for, first of all, you did it for a release from the corporate world to whatever you wanted to let out, but now it's a job. Has your relationship changed? Changed because my relationship with working out has definitely changed because that's what I coach all day,
Norma Nelson (01:17:26):
All the time. For me, the way it's changed is that I don't have, sadly as much time for my own personal practise. So I really, that's
Brock Ashby (01:17:37):
Exactly the same as me.
Norma Nelson (01:17:38):
Yeah, it's crazy. So I love going to other people's classes. I love it. I want to hear someone else's voice. I want to move to someone else's beat. I want to be inspired by every class I go to. There is something to take away, whether it's positive or negative. You're like, no, I'm not going to do that in my class. That felt horrible or that was amazing, or whatever. But more so it's just growing my own personal practise. So the busier I get, the more full on my life becomes. I feel like there's less and less time to focus on my personal practise. So I've better be extremely selective about whose class I go to. That time is so precious, it better be worth it.
Brock Ashby (01:18:18):
This better be a good class. I'm just letting you know before I put my met down, this better be good. Or I'm leaving exactly
Norma Nelson (01:18:24):
10 minutes. I can't take this time back. But yeah, that's definitely the one thing that has become hard. It hasn't changed my opinion. I think a lot of people say when I loved something, it was a passion, and then I did it as a job, and then I absolutely hated it. I'm definitely not there. I'm definitely not there. But yeah, the one thing that I wish I could have more of is the ability to practise more. But when I do practise, it's intense. It's amazing. But yeah, it's not as often as I used to,
Brock Ashby (01:18:57):
Obviously. Yeah, I definitely feel the same. Training used to be, I used to train as much as I could, and work was after, even when I was a personal trainer, it was like, I'll train work is something I'll fill in the gaps with. But now it's kind of like work is a priority, and I'll fill in the gaps with training. So sometimes I'm like, I'll train for 30 minutes. I never would've did that when I first started because I just loved it so much. I still love it just as much, but I have to priorit have prioritise. You have to prioritise work sometimes. Exactly. Yeah. I definitely find, I still love it just as much like you said. But yeah, finding the time to do it as much. And also, I really enjoy following other people's programmes.
Norma Nelson (01:19:34):
I love following all the
Brock Ashby (01:19:35):
People programmes just to love and just like you said, you learn. So for example, last year I did another trainers programme, and we were doing pull-ups to a bent over row, back to back, no rest. And I was like, I get it. Horizontal pull, vertical pull. It's a back super set, but the grip, I was like, my grip's on fire. Wow. I was like, I'm not going to do that. No, I'm never going to programme a pullup where you're pulling your body and then when you get strong, I was doing weighted, so I'm adding weight, pulling that weight up, then I'm putting that down straight away, going to a barbell or doing a bent over row where I'm now holding 80 kilos, and I'm like, it's two core exercises, but I'll just never do that together. Yeah, exactly. So I learn.
Norma Nelson (01:20:15):
You learn, and that's what I mean. There's something to take away from every situation, every class, every class I go to, there is a takeaway, whether it's good or bad, whether it's not, they're both an asset, definitely not doing that, or yes, I'm so inspired by that. This is something I can incorporate into this, et cetera. So yeah, it's still a learning process. And yeah, I definitely love seeing how other people do it, just getting ideas and yeah, it's part of
Brock Ashby (01:20:41):
It. Second question, what is a book that has made you a better person?
Norma Nelson (01:20:47):
That's a tough one. Look,
Brock Ashby (01:20:49):
Are you a book person
Norma Nelson (01:20:51):
Now? More? I'm a podcast person, but obviously when I was younger books, that's what we did. And for this one, look, the books that I think of that have made impressions on me or I feel have made me a better person or have influenced the person that I've become today are definitely books that I read earlier in my life. Me too. Yeah, earlier in my life. So things like books, like Say The Colour Purple or Beloved by Tony Morrison, colour Purple by Alice Walker. I've never, oh, wow. So these are
Brock Ashby (01:21:22):
Books. Are they famous? Are they popular
Norma Nelson (01:21:23):
Books? Yeah. Very, very well amongst black people. And really generally, the world should know about these books, and if you don't dunno about them, then definitely go and I'll have to add them, check them out. And for me, growing up as a young black person minority, these books really brought a lot of perspective into things. The plight of not just black people, but minorities, women. I feel like these authors and these books and these genres were things that helped me believe in myself as a person of colour that has grown up as a minority.
Brock Ashby (01:22:06):
So do you think they encouraged you? Like we were talking about yesterday, they gave you that little push saying?
Norma Nelson (01:22:10):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you look at the things that a lot of these books are based on real life stories, either from slavery days or post-slavery, the plight of being a black person, a woman especially. And these are things that obviously I can relate to. I'm a woman, a black person. I'm growing up in a world where people are telling me that I can't do this because of the heart, my skin. So it's these books. And my parents were very avid readers, still are, and I'm very grateful for some of the things that they passed on to me at a time where they knew that if we don't instil these kids with positive things and really remind them of where they come from and who you are as a person, and the fact that your colour makes no bearing on what you can bring into this world, and nobody should ever tell you that you can't do something because of the colour of your skin, where you come from or your gender.
(01:23:04):
And these books just reinforced it to see the plight of other people and what other people have done sacrifices. And in some instances that black people have had to make for our freedoms today, I'm still discriminated against, but nothing compared to what was happening in America a hundred years ago or still now, to be quite frank. So growing up with all these things around you, it takes a hell of a person to be able to sort of fight through adversity and this, that, and then you need positive influences in your life. So yeah, growing up, my parents introduced me to a lot of black authors that have influenced the person I'm today instilled ideas of empowerment, things like that. So yeah, I think the majority of books that I read that have been a pivotal part of my life would definitely in my youth. But yeah, maybe The Colour Purple would be one by Alice Walker.
Brock Ashby (01:24:02):
Incredible book. I'd love to read that last one. And this may tie into those books go on. Last question, a quote that has made you better,
Norma Nelson (01:24:11):
A quote that has made me better. I love quotes.
Brock Ashby (01:24:13):
Me too. I love, that's why I
Norma Nelson (01:24:14):
Have, its, I really love the last one that really resonates with me. I think I posted it on my Instagram actually, is one by Muhammad Ali, and it said, if the mind can conceive it, if the heart can believe it, then you can achieve it. I'm like, yes, buddy. That's so good. It's that whole visualisation thing, that whole manifestation thing, that idea of linking charm and just going for what you have your mind set on, and that minute that you get, it's such a beautiful moment. It runs through everything that I do in my teachings, the encouragement piece that I have when people come to my classes. And one of the reasons I think they love me is because I try and get them to believe that you can do whatever you want to do. You can achieve it. So that quote really resonated with me.
Brock Ashby (01:25:06):
You should chuck that quote in your next class. That'll fire everyone. I
Norma Nelson (01:25:08):
Should,
Brock Ashby (01:25:09):
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that quote, because it starts with if your mind can conceive it, and that's what we've been talking about today is literally first thing in the morning, you set your mind up to try and see the things, conceive the things that you want to achieve so that you can see the
Norma Nelson (01:25:25):
Charm. Yeah, it's a dynamite quote from a dynamite guy. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, I love quotes. I am constantly looking for quotes that will inspire me or things that resonate with me. But yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:25:37):
That's a good one. Awesome. Well, I think that's how we wrap up the podcast. I appreciate your time. Oh
Norma Nelson (01:25:41):
My God, thank been you so much for having me, Brock. It's been an absolute pleasure. Just connecting with you right from that car park outside her desk,
Norma Nelson (01:25:49):
And now I'm on his podcast, I'm like, who is this guy? And then I looked at you and saw, I'm like, oh my God, this guy's got a massive
Norma Nelson (01:25:56):
Following, but you're so down to earth. It's been really a pleasure connecting with you, and you're so inspiring. You really are.
Brock Ashby (01:26:04):
But that's what I love about you as well. Sorry to jump in. I was like, it's so cool to meet someone that loves it, like a practitioner loving it, doing it. We got that gig because we're great. Absolutely. Because we have something to give. That's it. But sometimes people that are great, maybe achieved it through different mindsets, let's put it that way. And I'm like, that's why I'm not a huge fan of those events. Sometimes, like, oh, no, I'm going to have to kiss people's ass and like, hi, man, I'm never really going to see them. Or they'll say, let's catch up soon. I'm like, I don't really
Norma Nelson (01:26:37):
Want to
Brock Ashby (01:26:38):
Catch up soon. Sometimes. And this has been hard. Sometimes I'll just say no. Oh. And it's like, they're
Norma Nelson (01:26:44):
Like,
Brock Ashby (01:26:45):
Whoa, what do you mean? Yeah. I'm like, oh, I'm good. And it's really hard to stand, but I'm just like, we probably weren't going to catch up anyway. And I'm like, not like a bad person. I don't want be your friend,
Norma Nelson (01:26:58):
But you just know that our path are not which different man.
Brock Ashby (01:27:01):
I want to have Norma on my podcast, not you, man. So
Norma Nelson (01:27:05):
Yeah, no, oh God, I'm so grateful for the opportunity and yeah, again, pinching myself most things in my life. But yeah, it's been so amazing to connect with you, Brock. I've been listening to your podcast as well, which is awesome. But yeah, thank you for having me. I was really nervous again. I'm like, what am I going to talk about? What's
Brock Ashby (01:27:22):
This? Nothing to be nervous about. This is just like a chat. It just looks full on, but
Norma Nelson (01:27:27):
It's not. It's a chat. No, it's been a pleasure. So thank you. I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity to get people to listen to someone else. A hundred
Brock Ashby (01:27:35):
Percent. Oh, quickly, before we finish, what is next for you? How can people follow you?
Norma Nelson (01:27:41):
So you can follow me. My Instagram is norma.nelson.yoga. Follow me. See what I do. I'm constantly running workshops, handstand workshops.
Brock Ashby (01:27:51):
Tell Byron Basin
Norma Nelson (01:27:52):
In Byron Bay. Byron Bay, is
Brock Ashby (01:27:54):
It? No, no, not Byron Bay. I thought I saw you post something. It was like an orange.
Norma Nelson (01:27:59):
No, I'm doing a workshop. I'm doing an arm balancing workshop this weekend in Sydney. So yeah, but I had some Hermes picks up there. Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, all good, all good. But yeah, what's next for me? I want to, I'm in the middle of putting together retreats, so I want to do immersions whereabouts? Handstand. Whereabout in Thailand is the next one where, yeah, so I'm hoping to tee that up for March. Trying to do that at the moment. But yeah, just get people, I want to take people away, immersions, get stuck into it eight days, all handstands or whatever. But yeah, travel, just marry my love of travel and what I do. Yoga, handstands, animal flow, take people away, get them away from their daily grind and focus on something for a bit of time. So yeah, just continuing to do more workshops and yeah, retreats is next on the list.
Brock Ashby (01:28:51):
Awesome. Yeah. All right. We'll wrap it up there.
Norma Nelson (01:28:52):
Appreciate your time. Thank you, bro. Thank you so much.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 23 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Leah Simmons, and before she kind of jumps in, I want to guess give a bit of backstory of how we met. We met what last weekend? Yes, last weekend at the Ms. Fit event. And I typically do not like those events, not particularly those events, but I guess networking events. Well, we were there to run classes, but I struggle with, I guess the meeting people and say, let's catch up for coffee and you're never going to do it, or, let's catch up soon. And it never happens. So it was really nice to meet you and other trainers as well that were super nice, genuine, loving fitness on the same journey, helping people and stuff, so it was awesome to meet you. Do you want to give a little intro because you were running some balance classes, belt stretching, but that's not an accurate picture of what you do. And I was teaching a HIIT class, and I don't do a drop of cardio in my life and I'm doing a HIIT class. So give us a little intro
Leah Simmons (00:01:06):
Of Look. I was definitely thrown out of my comfort zone in those classes a hundred percent, but I was like, I'm not going to pass up this opportunity for a challenge. Obviously the brand was one that I was like, I was so intrigued as to what they were about to offer. Plus I'd done a little bit of a research for the ones that they'd done around the world, and I just thought what a great thing to be involved in. Yeah, so I was brought in as a yoga teacher, so I'm not a traditional yoga teacher. I teach Kundalini yoga, which is a completely different form of yoga than what people are kind of, I guess used to. It focuses a lot more on the breath, a lot more on moving energy. It's more, it's a physical yoga, but it's much more around mindset and those sorts of repetitive things.
(00:02:01):
So when they were like, oh, we want you to put together a yoga class using our silk scars, we want you to put together a stretch class using the belts and this sort of hat balance class. I was like, okay. Plus they gave me a two minute reference of what they'd done in the past. So I went to create a 30 minute class around it. But it was great. And to be honest, you were the first person that, because we were on day one together at the same time, you were the first person that I'd seen in our orange outfit, and I was like, oh my God, thank God there's somebody else here that's feeling half as ridiculous as me.
(00:02:39):
But I think over the three days, it was a really, really fun, innovative event and a way to kind of blend fashion and fitness in a fun way for people. I think if they'd never experienced anything like that. And it was fun, and I got to meet you, and I'm the same with you. I don't generally use those sorts of events to spruce my brand or who I am or anything. I'm very much about the person, and if there is a rapport or something, or if there's a common interest that is identified from the outset, well, let's take it from there. Do you know what I mean? I don't feel like just because we're all fitness trainers, them thrown into some, we should all be best friends. But yeah, I think it was good. And there was definitely a synergy having spoken to you, and I think we talked about, we didn't even talk about fitness. We talked about your family and kids and a whole bunch of stuff, and that to me is where that commonality is really born.
Brock Ashby (00:03:42):
Yeah, I think that's kind of the last thing I want to talk about as well. We don't want to sit down and go, oh, how many pushups
Leah Simmons (00:03:47):
Can you do? No, because win that.
Brock Ashby (00:03:52):
Yeah. So it was nice to just talk and just hang out as friends, because as I said, sometimes it's just not like that. But coming from fitness, how did you get in here? Because I learned a few things about you coming into this podcast that you were Oh,
Leah Simmons (00:04:07):
Really? From the internet
Brock Ashby (00:04:10):
That you were a DJ for what, 18 years in London? Yes. So take us from the start, I guess if you want to go back to back decades, where you grew up, how you grew up, and then how you transitioned from being a DJ to going into fitness. Yeah.
Leah Simmons (00:04:29):
Look, I mean, I won't bore you with Leah's life story. Suffice to say that I had a very rich upbringing as in rich, fulfilling. It was great. I've got a sister who I adore, but I think I was slightly unconventional from the get-go. I always had different ideas. I always had a different kind of outlook. I was very, very musical as a child. So learned to play the piano when I was three, four years old. Constantly singing, always singing, always the performer, always the leader, always doing plays and random things. So there was definitely a future of something on stage somewhere for Leah. And when I left school, all my friends went off to uni. I was like, oh, I want to become a dj. I'd really just fallen in love with that whole kind of, it was the mid nineties. And so women, I think were starting to find their feet in music. I started DJing, was dating a dj. I started DJing. I found out I was quite good at it. I was getting all of these jobs. I was one of two female DJs in Sydney at the time, and it was all vinyl. There was none of this push a button and stuff, just mix. It was you had to have skills.
Brock Ashby (00:05:45):
Yeah, these days DJs, I'm like, are you just pressing play? And then just dancing around.
Leah Simmons (00:05:50):
They're pressing play, and I think they're pressing beat, sync,
Brock Ashby (00:05:55):
Make
Leah Simmons (00:05:55):
It work, just does it together. I don't know. I can't say that for certain. I'm not in the scene anymore. But back then it was definitely all manual and you had to listen. So I'd go home and I'd key all of my records. I'd sit at the piano and I'd figure out what key they were in, and so that I could make the listening experience that much more. I was always a nerd no matter what I was doing, whether it was music or fitness or thing, I love learning and I love information and I love absorbing things and seeing how far I can take things and mashing things up. And that's always been my, that's always been my mo. And so my DJ career led me quite amazingly. So I have to say to London, and the way that happened was I was working for a radio station in Sydney.
(00:06:45):
I was the marketing manager, and I also had a radio show, and my colleagues encouraged me to enter this competition called the Red Bull Music Academy. And it was the first one that they were running. It was in the year 2000, and it was open globally, and the prize, if you won, was two weeks in a global city somewhere being mentored by some of the most amazing people, the top of their field in the music industry. So it was like a and r people for record labels. It was the guy that invented the Moog synthesiser. It was this sort of two week think tank, and they had about 3000 people from around the world apply. 16 people got selected, and I was one of them. And it was supposed to be in New York two days before I was supposed to leave. September 11 happened, which was devastating, obviously.
(00:07:37):
So they did a whole kind of rethink and they postponed it to London the following January. So off I went to London on this two week thing. I went first six weeks. I have family over there. I was 24 years old, and I was like, this is where I want to be. This is the epicentre of the music industry, not Sydney. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the beach industry and fitness, that lifestyle. And it's just small, and it's not our fault. It's great. The quality of life is amazing and it's my home. But if you want to go and realise a dream in that everybody that I looked up to was over there. Every label that I loved was over there. And after these two weeks, I was like, that's it. I'm moving here. And I literally did. I came home, I packed up my stuff, and I was like, I'm out and off.
(00:08:30):
I went to London, big dreams, big expectations, thinking that I could just stroll into Radio One and be like, I worked at a radio station in Sydney. Yeah, you guys need a marketing manager. Totally. Because no, no social media, none of that. It was all just, I have a dream. What are the steps I'm going to take to realise it? And I'm not going to let anybody tell me that I can't do it. So off I went, and nine later, still working in a clothing shop on Portello Road, going one day. It's going to be tomorrow going to,
Brock Ashby (00:09:03):
But I think, sorry to jump in. I think that's the beauty of no social media and kind of having this courage to do that because you see people all successful and stuff, and it can often prevent you from going because you see the success and then you go, well, if I move to London, I'm going to be here and I have to work my way up. But I couldn't agree with you at all. But feel not having that is potentially, you would've saw social media and all that kind of stuff and maybe how hard it was, and you would've not done it. And I feel like that's what people do these days is just look at things and they get paralysed by fear.
Leah Simmons (00:09:33):
Everything is also available now to everybody. And what I'm saying is if you wanted something back then you really needed to be creative in the way that you went off to get it. And there was a drive in you that separated people that just went, oh, I see it. I'll apply for it. Do you know what I mean? The pool was smaller, but it was more competitive because it was like the things that I had to do to try and get to this point,
Brock Ashby (00:10:00):
Well, you pack up your bags and then just moved
Leah Simmons (00:10:02):
To country. I moved to a completely foreign country. Whereas if I had probably gone looked at someone's vlog on the pros and the cons of living in London, I'd be like, it's too scary. I'm not going to
Brock Ashby (00:10:13):
Do that. Yeah, too much. Where am I going to live?
Leah Simmons (00:10:15):
And because of my, I guess naivety or I wouldn't call it ignorance, it was just we didn't have, all I had in my mind was this one goal and I'm going to go and see if I can, do you know what I mean? Yeah. So eventually a job came up at a record label. I'd never worked at a record label before in my life, but I thought, I'm going to apply, and I got the job. And so I ended up living in London, living my dream. I ran the world's largest independent breakbeat label at the age of 24. I was looking after some massive international acts. We were touring all around Europe. I was living in a fairytale. Yeah, that's the
Brock Ashby (00:10:59):
Dream. That's why you moved. That's
Leah Simmons (00:11:00):
The dream. And it was work hard, play hard, play, really, really hard. Harder than I've ever played in my life.
Brock Ashby (00:11:10):
Yeah, the music scene is notorious for that.
Leah Simmons (00:11:12):
And no social media, so no evidence of anything. Do you know what I mean? It was being in the moment, there was no, you weren't being filmed. It was pure, unadulterated experience and presence. And it was so much fun. And I had so many firsts in my life, sort of between the age of 24 and 29, and I really cherish those times to have lived without the pressure of social media. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:11:45):
Well, I feel like now people just do things for the gramme. They're tidying and something like that. Oh, did you get it? And then they just sit down and edit it and post it. It's sad.
Leah Simmons (00:11:55):
They're in the moment. It's actually, that breaks my heart to feel like all of these moments that you see are fake moments. And look, to be honest with you, this actually led me into the whole Kaya journey is being a perpetrator of that fake life. But that's later on in my fitness story. But look, every, all good things must come to an end. And I realised that I was about to turn 30, that I can't keep going on this train. It will end up crashing. It's
Brock Ashby (00:12:29):
A fast train.
Leah Simmons (00:12:30):
It's a fast train to nowhere. And every time I'd come back to Australia, my mom would just, she'd take one look at me and be like, you need to come with me and get some exercise and get some sunshine.
Brock Ashby (00:12:47):
So were you working out at the time or no? No. Fitness wasn't,
Leah Simmons (00:12:50):
Absolutely not. My cardio was on a dance board baby,
Brock Ashby (00:12:55):
Which isn't too bad of
Leah Simmons (00:12:56):
Performing cardio. No, but I wasn't eating anything. I was probably drinking way too much. There was other stuff going on. It was what I was living the dream of a 20 something who wasn't in the fitness industry, who was obsessed with the music industry. And I was just having these amazing experiences. But I started to feel like the time in, it was kind of coming to an end. My sister was about to have her first baby. I was kind of starting to go, what am I doing with my life? I can't keep doing this. And so I ended up moving back to Australia just before I turned 30. And around about this time was when iTunes was just starting to become a thing. And so the music industry was shifting anyway from this very physical, you'd go into a record store and you'd scan all the music and you'd choose really carefully because records were expensive.
(00:13:58):
And it wasn't just download a song for a dollar that didn't exist. And so our industry relied on people buying music and then the artists touring to support all of that. And the bottom started to fall out of, especially the independent record label industry, because all of a sudden you could have whatever song you wanted available to you to download. There was no more experiential going into the record store. So the whole thing was shifting, and I was like, right, this is a sign. It's time for me to go into something new. And I was like, what else do I love doing? And at the time, my mom had introduced me to Pilates as a method, and it wasn't popular. It was 2006. It was a thing that you either did when you were old to rehab a hip replacement or something, or you did as an ex ballet dancer coming out, because that's what we're an ex dancer. But it's funny, now I look back on it. People, professional surfers, professional basketball players, all the rugby league teams, they were all doing it. It just wasn't called Pilates. It was called core conditioning.
Brock Ashby (00:15:12):
It sounds, I guess, for rugby players and surfers and stuff, it sounds less like Pilates was more maybe like a female thing.
Leah Simmons (00:15:18):
Totally. And there's all that stigma around the language and everything, but you are all doing it. You know what I mean? But I really, really resonated with the method. And it was the one thing that actually I could see real results in my physique. I felt taller when I come out of a class. It did something where it, because I love the focus on postural alignment and spine health. I think it's really, really important to look after your flexibility.
Brock Ashby (00:15:48):
You're looking at me, all the warning signs are there. You're like, you're a
Brock Ashby (00:15:52):
Walking problem.
Leah Simmons (00:15:54):
Yes. We don't want to end up like a pretzel.
Brock Ashby (00:15:56):
I'm sitting here trying to fold myself in half, and
Leah Simmons (00:16:01):
I think Joseph Pilates said, you're only as young as your spine is healthy, because it really is. If you let that go and you just focus on your superficial muscles and you don't bring the training down into all those little muscles in and around your spine and start training from the inside out, you really feel it. It's like a tree that has this seemingly really strong trunk on the outside, but is hollow on the inside. You could just push it over.
Brock Ashby (00:16:28):
I felt very hollow this morning. So to give you a bit of context, I did the kayak class at, what's the spot called
Leah Simmons (00:16:37):
At Vertus in Bond
Brock Ashby (00:16:39):
Beach. So 9:00 AM We had a class, and I was actually telling Leah I'm strong, but I couldn't hold my arms out. So we were doing, how do you explain the pose? Just arms out to the sky. So it's
Leah Simmons (00:16:52):
An extended arm hold.
Brock Ashby (00:16:53):
Okay, extended arm hold pinkies kind of to the sky. So
Leah Simmons (00:16:56):
You want to turn everything on. So we're not getting lazy in our positions. And
Brock Ashby (00:17:02):
I could not last, I think I had a two minute run at the start, but it was, I dunno, 11 minutes, nine minutes. So I was coming in and out, back down. There was sweat dripping down my face. My back was super sweaty, my hip flexes were sore, my spine, well, not spine. My erectus were sore, my arms were sore, I was sweating and I was looking around to see if everyone else was sweating and was like people weren't really sweating. And then that lady in front of us, straight out.
Leah Simmons (00:17:27):
So I mean, there's a lot to unpack in that because first of all, first time, second of all, you came in with an expectation that it was going to be easier than it was.
Brock Ashby (00:17:36):
I did think it was going to be a lot easier.
Leah Simmons (00:17:38):
So expectations, as we know, are the breeding ground for disappointment. I
Brock Ashby (00:17:43):
Was very disappointed in myself.
Brock Ashby (00:17:45):
But
Leah Simmons (00:17:46):
They're going to potentially hinder your experience because you've already put a series of caveats on what you think is going to be the outcome. And thirdly, it's something that you're not used to. You're not conditioned to it. You haven't done it before. It's new.
Brock Ashby (00:18:04):
I haven't done Pilates before. Not that that's a Pilates class, that's a Kaya class. It's an experience,
Leah Simmons (00:18:09):
But it combines a whole
Brock Ashby (00:18:10):
Bunch of stuff. I haven't had anything like that.
Leah Simmons (00:18:12):
So all of those things combined are going to set off those receptors in your mind that either you can't do this, it's hard. You are going to feel the sensations all of your body. So I try to not refer to that as pain per se, because pain is subjective. What's painful for you? Your pain threshold is different to my pain threshold. We also associate the word pain with something that's negative, where sometimes after you go through that initial period of discomfort, the outcome is really, really positive. It's
Brock Ashby (00:18:46):
Almost always
Leah Simmons (00:18:47):
Positive. So what I like to do is to break it down into a series of sensations. Where am I feeling this in my body? And isn't that interesting? And meet that sensation with a bit of curiosity rather than judgement and going, oh, I'm really shit at this because you're not, let's look at all the things that you've done really well, and I've just sat here for two minutes with my arms out. Let's celebrate that. Do I need to rest? Perhaps? But maybe let's go back into it and see if I can start to build on that experience. And as I was saying to you before, the whole class is a metaphor for life. I'm not trying to build up your traps. I mean there's, that's the secondary thing. I'm not trying to do that. What I'm hoping is going to happen is that you can sit in a period of discomfort in your life for even if it's just one more breath cycle longer than you thought you would be able to, and then go, oh my gosh, if I could do that, then how else in my life can I show up for myself in a way that is beyond what I think?
(00:19:56):
Because it's all a mental mind game. Do you know what I mean? We put limits around what we are truly capable of because of fear, and that's normal. It's not like we are doing anything that any other human being isn't doing. And it comes from that sort of very primal fight or flight where we want to keep ourselves safe. What does safety look like? Is our life in danger anymore on a day-to-day basis? No. But our physical reactions to when things aren't going our way, or if we are taken down a different road to somewhere that's unknown, that response is the same. Still
Brock Ashby (00:20:40):
Primal.
Leah Simmons (00:20:40):
It's still primal and what would happen. And I think with Kaya, what really trying to show people is that there's a space in between the stimulus and then your response to it that you have control over. And it's in that space that you want to try and build capacity and resilience and trust in your own ability to be able to actually push through that perceived limit. It's all just perceived. There's really no threat there except what's in your own mind. And Kaya is a tool that you can refer to on any day, at any given time, when you are faced with a challenge or something that makes you uncomfortable to meet that challenge with a little bit more patience, a little bit more compassion, less judgement , less resistance, and a bit more openness, because it's in those moments, I think, where you really truly understand yourself and then can open you up to everything that life has to offer you rather than living life with these blinkers and these sort of, so that's why I created it. It really, it was all of the things and all of the practises that I was doing in my life on a daily basis that kept me together.
Brock Ashby (00:22:05):
So you started Pilates? Yep. Originally, your mom got you into it, and then how did you form the rest of the whole, yeah, putting everything
Leah Simmons (00:22:13):
Together. Okay. So winding back decided that I wanted to become a Pilates teacher, did my PT training, did my Pilates training, took a couple of years, was teaching in my Pilates studio in Double Bay. Was loving it, absolutely loving it, building up a really solid client base, seeing people's transformations. The one thing though that really baffled me was that this was when social media started to become a thing. So
Brock Ashby (00:22:40):
What year are we in?
Leah Simmons (00:22:41):
We are in 2007, 2008, Instagram, Facebook, just starting. My handle was body by Leah Simmons. So I was very focused on the body, the physical, because that's what we can see. It's tangible. It's what you can touch and feel. And it's like, this looked like this day, and now it looks like this. Obviously it's doing something else. And what we were being fed, I think, was that this particular, or this body type, this ideal equals health. So if you look a certain way, then you're going to feel a certain way and fit equals healthy and all of this sort of stuff. And that's what we were taught.
Brock Ashby (00:23:27):
There's still a lot of people in that world.
Leah Simmons (00:23:29):
Well, there are, but thank goodness, I think that the narrative is starting to be questioned. It's not so much that it's wrong, it's just why do we think that? And if my experience that does make my experience not valid, because I have to be honest, I was right into that. And what I was experiencing was that the pressure to maintain this body meant that I was engaging in practises that would not have been deemed healthy at all. Right? So what's the winner? I look this way, therefore I am this way, or I look this way despite not being this perfect picture of health. If I could show you, and I'm now starting to talk about the things that I was doing behind the scenes to preserve this body.
(00:24:27):
I mean, I was just saying to my friend yesterday, back in those days, we were all talking about publications. There was your day on a plate. Do you remember your day on a plate, Brock? When you get asked, no, you'd never, oh, you're too young. They would ask you, what does your day on a plate look like? So you'd have to list all of the things that you would eat in a day as a, I mean, God forbid, I should actually put what I was or not consuming in the day. So what I would do, and this was where I really kind of met myself for the first time. I would put together this amazing plate of food, eggs, tomato, like sauerkraut the most. I'd be counting, tick all the boxes, all the protein, and just the right amount of this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Shoot it, throw it in the bin, and you laugh. But that is sad.
Brock Ashby (00:25:18):
Well, I laugh because I question it because still things, well, it's not really day on a plate, but now it's like people are posting or influences fitness influence what I eat in a day.
Leah Simmons (00:25:28):
Well, it's the same thing. And
Brock Ashby (00:25:29):
I see the same thing. It's like that stuff. And I'm like, surely you are not eating that.
Leah Simmons (00:25:34):
But this is what in my mind would gain. I mean, where I was going mentally was just so far away from where I should have been. So it was like, this is going to get, first of all, the most amount of likes. This is not going to get me into trouble. This is maybe even in the back of my mind, what I want to be eating. All these crazy thoughts. But the bare fact was that I would throw it in the bin. I wouldn't eat it. I wasn't eating. I was engaging in terrible health practises. My sleep was suffering. I was disconnected from myself, my son, my partner. I mean, I was so far away from being healthy, but I looked healthy. And this is when I started really questioning what did it mean to be truly fit? What does it mean to be truly healthy?
(00:26:27):
Where does health come from? And is healthy just a physical feeling? What about your mental health? I mean, mental health wasn't even a conversation back then. We weren't really even talking about it in the mainstream. And so what happened was I was not only noticing that I was having these thoughts and these questions, but my clients would come in whinging about their relationship, whinging about this, whinging about it. It was all whinging, whinging. Meanwhile, they're looking amazing. And I'm like, everybody's feeling this? Yeah, it's a massive imbalance. It's a huge imbalance. And so then I started going, well, where does happiness come from? What does it take to be happy? Where are they mutually exclusive? What's one without? The other is health and happiness. And so all these questions. And then I met my husband, who's now my ex-husband, but he lived in Bali and through this kind of amazing, I guess whatever you want to call it, from the universe, I ended up spending a lot of time over there.
(00:27:28):
And that's a very, very spiritual place. It's a very healing place. I got introduced to lots of different modalities that started to have an effect on me mentally and emotionally. So breath work, meditation, I'd never meditated before. It just wasn't part of who I was. I was like, I can't sit still. I'm like a little energizer bunny constantly need to be busy and moving. And that first foray into just sitting with my own thoughts, horrific. I struggled with that today because you actually start to realise that you are not a nice person. Do you know what I mean? All the thoughts. And I'm like, I, if I met me, would I be friends with me? No. Do you know what I mean? So there was all of these things.
(00:28:25):
And Adrian, my husband at the time was, he kind of gave me an ultimatum before we moved to Bali. He was like, you need to have a look at your situation because it's becoming untenable for me. You're angry all the time. You're disconnected and you can't even see it. And that was my wake up call. So I was like, right, I'm in. I'll do whatever I need to do to just to really look at the hard truths. Someone's saying this to me for a reason. It's time for me to step up and have a look. And the most powerful practise that I found over there was Kundalini yoga. And that's where the arm hold comes from, is that really pivotal moment in a practise or when you're looking at yourself, where you are faced with you. Do you know what I mean? You're looking into a mirror and you're like, do I like what I see? And if I want to make change, what am I willing to do to make those changes? Nobody else is going to change me. I have responsibility for this. I am accepting responsibility for where I am, and I'm the only one that can change it. And there's power in that.
(00:29:39):
There is, you know what I mean? Once you accept responsibility for where you're at, then you have the power to be able to change it. And so I started doing all of these practises, bringing them into my day. We were doing breath work sessions and ice baths and yoga and meditation, all this sort of stuff. And all of a sudden the whole day's gone with all these things. And I was feeling amazing, and my life was changing, and I was becoming a much calmer, more centred, more present person. And I was like, but the teacher in me was like, I need to share this. I need to be able to share this with the world. This is what my clients have been missing. This is what people have been missing, this combo. But there was nothing, there was no workout out there that sort of combined all of it. It was always, there's your gym session, or there's your yoga session, there's a meditation, there's that over there. It was all separate. And I was like, who's got the time to do all of these things day four different hours of
Brock Ashby (00:30:35):
The day
Leah Simmons (00:30:35):
In one workout? Expensive. So I was like, I'm going to create a workout that combines all of those different modalities into one, even if you just get a taste of it all, and I'm going to smash it into 45 minutes. And that's what I did with Kaya. It's four pillars of health, four modalities, 45 minutes in, you're done. And then obviously the DJ in me is like, well, this needs a killer soundtrack because I need that motivation too. So what music mix the music, there's a big journey. It's an experience, and it's had some incredible, incredible feedback. Just the momentum behind it has been so good because people are really connecting to, I guess, themselves for the first time. They're really understanding their own potential. They are realising that they're much stronger than they think, and that they've actually been their own roadblock or their own obstacle in their own growth. And as, I guess that can be quite a hard truth to hear, but it can also be a very liberating one because you're like, oh my God, now I know I can.
Brock Ashby (00:31:51):
Yeah. Well, once you know what's wrong, you can make a change. Yes. Yeah. Well, I felt something today. I haven't shared this with you yet. So when I was sitting there and I think, I can't remember when it was. I think it was one, it was after the workout when we were kind of closing our eyes and stuff and we were trying to think about things, and I feel stockpiled up with thoughts, and I feel, I felt like these are all in the way and I can't do the meditating thing. So I've never been able to meditate. So I have this morning routine thing. Yeah, you're probably laughing. You probably already know this just by looking at me. But I have a morning routine, which I kind of see as my meditation thing. So it was originally called the Gratitude List, and then someone was like, call it the Thank Bank or something like that. I was like, okay, the bank, bank, yeah, I know what it sounds like, but that's why I thought it was funny. So anyway, I kind rattle off these things. I have a list of family members and friends that I read I'm grateful for, and then I say these things that I want to be or that I am or that. So an
Leah Simmons (00:32:57):
Affirmation.
Brock Ashby (00:32:58):
Yeah, I am thoughtful, I am generous, I am, all these kinds of things. The list gets longer every day's now it takes me 15 minutes to read out. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I have the time for this today. And then I go through and ask for the things that I am aspiring for. And then I read all these quotes, some from the Bible, some from things that I pick up, some from books that I'm reading and stuff. I love that. So that's I guess my version of meditation, right? Yes. But I can never sit still and just kind of think I feel. So I dunno what the word is, just overwhelmed with thoughts that when we were doing that, I can see where you wanted me to be, but I felt like that was 50 thoughts away, and I need more than 45 minutes to sit there with. That's one thing I face today just from having, I guess that space, my life feels very full at the moment. And that was an experience where you're saying, I'm, I am the roadblock.
Leah Simmons (00:33:51):
I mean, I guess it comes down to having an outcome. So meditation isn't about clearing your mind or it's about being able to just observe yourself and your thoughts in that moment without any judgement . So even if there are 45 thoughts in front of it and you've got no hope of connecting, you might not even hear me what I'm saying. And that's okay. It's pure observation and becoming aware of the fact that you are sitting here, the fact that there is this thought machine that is running constantly in your mind. And once you become the observer of that, then you realise that you are not your thoughts because you're actually observing your thoughts. So who is it that is sitting there in observation it? And your thoughts are a combination of your ancestors, your upbringing, people around you, what's right in front of you today, what was in front of you a year ago.
(00:34:59):
It is this kind of pool swamp sometimes of just subconscious stuff and conscious stuff and worries and fears and concerns and conditioning and beliefs and value. There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes into why we think the way that we think. It gets programmed into us at a very, very young age when we're actually not, we don't have the rational capability to process and choose whether or not we want to retain that thought as a belief. That's how we get brought up sometimes in meditation. And the more consistently you can do it, you can sit there and actually question those thoughts. Is this something that I really, really believe? Or is this something that is potentially going to limit my growth? And I think just reflecting back on the last couple of years, especially with Covid and how our lives have been thrust into this really, really confronting moment where we've been thrown together with people 24 hours a day or away from people, we've started to really question everything, authority, the media, the things that we get fed.
(00:36:16):
And we've had to really start to rely on our own radar around what's truth for us and what's not truth. And I think being able to sit in that space where we know that the things that are going through our mind, those thoughts, we can pick and choose which ones that we want to either carry out or the ones that don't particularly have much relevance to us anymore. And meditation allows those thoughts to start to slow down and kind of become ordered, if so to speak. And anything consistency is key. So you can't do one meditation and be like, I can't do this. I'm terrible at it. Of course you're going to be, it's one of those things where you go, I'm committed. Start with five minutes. It doesn't have to be 20 minutes. It doesn't have to be, and just have no expectation of an outcome.
(00:37:12):
There is no, if you sit there and have your mind just this junky kind of trash can of whatever of stuff, great. You've sat there for five minutes. There is no such thing as a bad meditation. The fact that you showed up and did it and committed to it, that's where you need to pat yourself on the back. And over time, it will get, I mean, you weren't born like this. Come on. Well, I don't know. You had to work for your muscles. Yeah, definitely. Right? So it's like that. It's building a muscle and it's all it is. It is meditation sitting with yourself and showering yourself in a little bit of, and it doesn't have to be this love affair to start off with. It just has to be a bit of patience and a bit of kindness. I'm doing the best that I can with the things that I've been given and know that I just want to walk out of today a little bit better than I did yesterday. And if I didn't, tomorrow is another day. Everything is impermanent. You don't have to carry, we always have the opportunity in every moment to switch or pivot or change, or it is literally one breath away.
Brock Ashby (00:38:23):
Yeah, I was always too, I'm better now, believe it or not, than when I was previously, when I was a face-to-face personal trainer, which you can relate to in terms of just being clients. And all the time I was too busy to even think of that. Now that I'm, so I've transitioned from face-to-face online. I did that because, well, the primary reason was I wanted more time to learn and actually become a better trainer. So more education, so time to study and stuff. I didn't have that time, but I kind of see it as, I guess I also slowed down as well, because I had time to, I felt like I was frustrated with myself because I was just in the physical. You were saying, I was just sessions, sessions, book people in, oh, I've got a half an hour. I can make that busier. So it was kind of like, how can I make my life busier? And I suppose that's a manifestation of
Leah Simmons (00:39:14):
What I do. What are you avoiding by trying to fill your day with all of this stuff? I think those are the questions as well. It's like, it's the space between the spaces that we need to look at. Why am I trying to, what am I scared of seeing? What are I not wanting to confront? What is it that I don't want to create space for right now? Those are the things that we need to actually put some energy and attention into.
Brock Ashby (00:39:39):
Well, I was making myself busy in the things that I knew I was good at, but say even just from a business perspective, I wanted to leverage scalability, being able to coach people online and stuff. But that was an area that I struggled with because I don't know anything about online coaching. It was early. There was no blueprint. There was no like, oh, this is what you do. You just have a website and la la. There was none of that. So I was like, I wanted to go there in my mind, but I was like, oh, it's easy. And it's more guaranteed to just get sessions and get clients. So it kind of prolonged, I got in my own way. Once again, I prolonged where I wanted to go by making myself busy, doing the easy thing where I needed to do the hard thing. And I suppose that's what you talk about with Kay is that space in between definitely knowing what to do, not knowing what to do and kind of that,
Leah Simmons (00:40:25):
And also know that there's a human being behind this as well. And I was faced exactly with the same issue as you. So I opened a studio When I moved back to Australia, I had been sort of road testing kyah. It was a different version. It was called something different in Bali. And after the first year of Covid, we moved back to Australia just to visit family. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to teach a few classes just to see how it's received in my hometown. And it just kind of took off. And I said to Adrian, my husband at the time, I was like, I really want to stay and see if I can make a go of this. I feel like it's got some potential. And he was like, great. So we stayed. I found a little studio space in Bondi, three months of teaching.
(00:41:11):
Amazing. Started to build the community. Classes were going, well, lockdown. And I was like, okay, this is new. Do you know what I mean? What do I do? Studio had to close, just started getting momentum. I was like, I'd never turned on Zoom in my life. I didn't a clue what it was. And I said, because I'm quite impulsive sometimes, and I will say things and I'm like a speak first, think later about kind of person I said to, because I didn't want to lose the momentum that I'd gained. And I also knew that during this period of isolation, I really wanted to start to try and look after my client's mental health, so important during that time as well as their physical health. And I knew that Kaya did that, and they knew it. So I said, right during the lockdown, I'm going to teach a free online class every single morning until the lockdown is finished.
(00:42:12):
I mean, who does that? Oh, no. I was like, oh, it's going to go for two weeks. 78 days later, I'm still showing up every single morning. In the meantime, this thing had started growing, and I had to learn how to use Zoom and my whole setup, everything as we went. I had days where everything, I mean, internet would go off, microphone would fall down, batteries ran out. It was an absolute shit show, but it was so funny. And it was happening in the moment, but it got to the point. Two months into it, I was having up to 700 people a day globally joining my free Zoom class. And I don't even know if it was for the workout. I think it was for this space that people knew they could come to and feel supported, feel seen, feel heard, feel connected, feel part of a community.
(00:43:06):
I'd always open it with a daggy kind of eighties. I'm a diehard eighties fan, some ridiculous eighties song dancing around because I wanted people to feel comfortable. And if I'm going to be a fool, then you have mission to be a fool. They can, yeah, that's right. Open the door and let's all kind of come and be fools together in this really crazy time. I mean, look at what's happening in the world. So bizarre. And then we do the workout, but then afterwards I'd sit and just listen. And I think as a teacher, we don't listen enough to our clients. And so were they able to speak? Yeah, no one muted or anything? No, everybody was muted. But who wants to share something such and such wants to share? Great. And everybody could hear it. And people were typing in the chat. And I mean, it was just amazing.
(00:43:59):
And I mean, some of the stories that came out of this experience, there was a woman who hadn't left her house in 18 months, and she had this incredible fear of, I mean, it just culminated in so much. And my mantra, as you can see in Kayah, is Can you see that? I can do this. I am doing this. And it's about being present and it's about believing in yourself. And it's one more breath, one more rep, one more breath, one more rep. And we were on the call together with this woman, and there was about 500 people on the call, and we were on the phone with her, and she walked out of her front door in front of everyone, and she was, I can do this. I am doing this. And she walked out to the gate and she walked down her street about 500 metres, and we were cheering, and she was there and she was doing it. I mean, I get teary thinking about, and there were stories like that every day, people finding the courage to leave an abusive relationship, people finding the courage and the self-belief to ask for a promotion. People just finding the courage to love themselves a little bit more. And literally daily, there was stories. My Instagram was just getting inundated with, just, I have to share with you. I had to share with you. This happened. This happened. And so when the lockdown sort of was coming to an end, I was like, no,
Brock Ashby (00:45:32):
Stay inside everyone.
Leah Simmons (00:45:33):
Totally my captured audience. It's not safe. But I was like, okay, I can't abandon all of these people. When the studio opens again, what am I going to do? So I created an online platform and I created a virtual studio, which we're sitting in at the moment. And I created this online space where people could still come and experience all the workouts and connect in the same way that they did and have those shared experiences. And well, what I did find was that I love online. It's obviously allowed me to scale, and it brings in a global audience. But for me, I still love being in a room with people as well. And today was one of the first classes that I taught in a long time. And the energy is palpable, especially with the practise that I do. It's you feel it, and people feed off that group energy. It's like a real motivating kind of thing. It's like there's an electricity in the air, and
Brock Ashby (00:46:32):
It's like camaraderie. You're all striving towards the same thing. Towards the end, people were making sounds, sounds, they were being loud. There was a lady beside that was kind of laughing, so maybe she was a bit like, oh, a bit uncomfortable.
Leah Simmons (00:46:44):
No, no. So that was Leisha. She's a huge client of mine online. Oh, right, okay. She's a laugher. No, I said to her, I was like, Alicia, because people, it's all a release, right? Laughing, crying. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:46:56):
I was all for it. I was like, it's just
Leah Simmons (00:46:57):
Expression. She actually shared with me. She said, you know what, Leah, I'm going in next week for some pretty life-changing surgery. I'm going to be out for a month. And she said, when you said pain is the gateway to transformation, I started laughing because I was so scared of this surgery that I'm going to have. And now I realise that the reason I'm having it is to transform my life, to bring a little bit more comfortability. And this is going to change me physically, and it's going to change my life. And I started, because you've literally just flipped that switch in my head. So now I see it as nothing to be afraid of. It's something that is literally going to be this. My life is going to be better after this. And that's why I started laughing. And so it is, it's all of these realisations where you have these conversations in your mind and you are the one that does the healing for you. Nobody else is doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not standing there with a gun to your head asking you to stand with your arms at. You are doing it because down at some base level that you have more in the tank, you have more to give, you have more potential, you have more strength, more capacity, more, more, more. And if I can do that, well, what else can I do in my life? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:48:21):
What else can I do? It kind of invites you in for what else you can do. Yes. I love that quote that you were saying. I actually forgot it. I wanted to ask you about it. The pain is the gateway
Leah Simmons (00:48:28):
To transformation.
Brock Ashby (00:48:29):
Transformation. I'm a huge fan of that.
Leah Simmons (00:48:30):
Yeah, it is. It's through, if you think about when pressure is applied to certain things, things need to restructure. If you think about how a butterfly is formed, if you think about how a diamond is formed, it's carbon under pressure, things under pressure are forced to restructure themselves and look at what gets born from it. It's this beautiful metamorphosis of really having to go through that tight squeeze, that bottleneck of it's uncomfortable. And that's when most people flame out. I don't know if you've seen the Kubler Ross change curve? No. So it tracks what happens during change. And so you'll have an event, you'll have this kind of questioning, there'll be denial, there'll be anger, there'll be frustration. You're going down, down, down. You get to the bottom. Most people in that moment will sort of, it's called flame out. They'll run back to the comfortability of their old habit, their old behaviour, their old pattern.
(00:49:32):
If you can sit in that space just beyond what you think, you start to move up the curve. You start to move up into a place where you experiment around what this could look like for my life. You start to move up into that place of self-belief, and it starts to gain momentum. And then that is where this change, this transformation really starts to manifest in your life. And you can be in different stages of it in different areas of your life all the time. So it's not just like, oh, I'm here and that's where I am. But to understand that there is this curve can maybe help you stick in that bottom bit for a little bit longer, that there's going to be a light. There's going to be a big upswing at the end of that tunnel. And I always come back to, if something's really difficult, something's really hard. If we're going through a tough time, if there's a lot of pain. Am I okay? Am I okay? Am I okay? Yeah, I'm okay. I can go through this a little bit longer. The world's not falling down. My arms aren't going to fall off. They're not. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:50:42):
So why do you think people flame out? Because personally, I'm very much love that ideology. I think the ways that my life has changed has been, they've kind of had to be in extreme circumstance where it's very hard. Or I've, when I first moved, so I was born in Christchurch, New Zealand, and we had earthquakes. So I was the last year of high school, there was not much going on. And I was like, well, what do I do? Actually, I was in a band at the time. I was in a boy band, a
Leah Simmons (00:51:17):
Boy
Brock Ashby (00:51:18):
Band. A boy band, yeah, five singers. And we were from Christchurch, and I was like, we need to push, because who knows where Christchurch is? No one. People don't even know that it exists. If anywhere in New Zealand, Auckland. And then we can think about bigger places later, maybe Australia, maybe America. I was thinking big when I was young, and I was so good. So I had a Honda Civic. My dad bought it for me off my brother's ex-girlfriend for $500. It was like rusty piece of shit. Had no registration, no warrant, and an oil leak. I took it the day before I left, no, on the day I left. And I was like, can I get a warrant? And he goes, nah, you're going to need to wait till Monday. You need too much help. And I said, well, I got a ferry to catch on Saturday.
(00:52:04):
So I just left no warrant, no rejo, all my stuff packed in a car. Dad gave me $800. When I arrived to Auckland, I had to spend it on the car to fix it. So I had no money. So that was hard. That was emotionally hard. I didn't know anyone in Auckland. I slept on a friend or I had a friend. I slept on his couch for two months, probably a month too long that he liked. I was sleeping on, it wasn't a bed, it was kind of like a coffee table with a mattress on it beside the dishwasher. It was like my life was a bit of mayhem. But on the back of that, I learned how to ask for things to go and get things. I had no job. So I was a singer. But we all know musicians, if you don't make it, you don't make much money.
(00:52:46):
So I had no money and I had no friends or anything. So in that time of hardship, I was crying myself to sleep most nights. And I was reading every night. I was really trying to believe myself. But that was one of the hard times in my life. But that's where I grew the most in terms of being independent or making money to pay bills or pay my friend that I was sleeping on the couch with, all that type of stuff. I'm a huge fan of that. And I didn't flame out once. But Why do you think people flame out?
Leah Simmons (00:53:14):
Because I don't think people have a goal or a compass that they can see beyond the situation that they're in. You had this vision, you were like, I want to be here, so what are the steps I need to take to get there? And you had that in the back of your mind the whole time. You had a purpose. And I don't think most people have a purpose. So they reach this bottom part where all they can see is the hard, and there's no light at the end of a tunnel. And I think when people talk about finding your purpose, it's not as easy as some people think. There's a lot of people that aren't born with a purpose. I knew at a very young age that although it wasn't clear in terms of health and wellness, I was meant to be a teacher of something.
(00:54:15):
I was always going to be somebody that I was loved being on stage. I loved performing whatever capacity that was. But my sister unclear, no specific kind of direction, no real passion, nothing. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think that people are, so, especially nowadays, we define purpose as having some big global impact where it doesn't have to be that your purpose might be being the best homemaker or the best mother, or the best it could be, and whatever that looks like to you, that could be your purpose. And there's a lot of integrity in that purpose. It could just be my purpose right now is figuring out what my purpose is. Do you know what I mean? And it can change.
Brock Ashby (00:55:08):
Well, you have to spend time figuring it out, right? Even with my one, I spent years, I told you I had a little experience at, well, not little experience. There's actually years of my life, but at church from 14 to 22, I was heavily involved. I was there almost every day, gave up sport for it, and music was my thing. I was singing all the time. But I spent so many, and I really don't care that I say this. I cried a lot. I had so much stuff to deal with. Kind of like the thoughts I was saying I had today in the class. I had to get them out of the way before I could focus on anything else. And I still have those thoughts there. But it was like I had stuff I had to deal with from when I was young. I lost my mom. So that sort of stuff, that kind of never goes, but
Leah Simmons (00:55:49):
No, but you learned to manage
Brock Ashby (00:55:50):
It. I chipped away at it, and I was like trying to make sense of it. Okay, what does that mean? As soon as that happened, I was like, I'll just live to make my mom proud. But then that worked as a fuel, but then that's kind of empty as well, because it's like, well, she would already be proud. Of course. So then I was just, well, as soon as I thought of that, I was like, well, then what else do I strive for? I got no other purpose. It was just that. So I spent time chipping away at that purpose doesn't come overnight. You really have to think about it. Absolutely. Yeah. I had to break down to, I guess, ashes for the Phoenix to rise, if you put it that way. So I could actually rise and be like, okay, I have a greater purpose than just making my mom proud, which is already proud. I want to do this and I want to do that.
Leah Simmons (00:56:31):
And I think it's so important that people share their stories because for every inspiring story like this where someone's actually found their purpose and are living it in a meaningful way, there's 20 stories of people that just have descended down into the other side of that, which is addiction. And I don't think that we should gloss over how difficult it is sometimes to attach to a purpose, to find a purpose, to live with purpose. What does it even mean to have a set of values that we live to? I mean, one of the things that I say in the class is say what you mean, mean what you say. And it's a simple saying, but easier said than done. We live in a society where expectation and perception is everything. How we are perceived by somebody else, nine times out of 10 is going to be the driving force behind our behaviours.
(00:57:24):
It's not how we think of ourselves. How is what I do going to come across to you and why do I care about that? You know what I mean? What you think of me is none of my business, and that is a universal truth. If we could all sort of subscribe to that, I think we could walk around with a little bit more self-belief rather than trying to fit into these little moulds of how we think people, because to be honest with you, I don't even think people think about other people as much as we think we are thought about. If
Brock Ashby (00:57:56):
That makes any sense sense at all. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I think to put it simpler, no one cares about you. No one cares about you. We have Exactly. Yeah. I say that a lot when people ask me like, oh, I have gym anxiety, or I think people are looking at me,
Leah Simmons (00:58:09):
One's looking at
Brock Ashby (00:58:09):
You. No one even remembers you. They're so fixated on themselves, but we're thinking, everyone's looking at me. I
Leah Simmons (00:58:15):
Know the
Brock Ashby (00:58:16):
Truth is no one really cares.
Leah Simmons (00:58:18):
No. And if we put the same level of attention on what other people think of us onto what we think of us, oh my God, we'd have a lot more integrity. We'd be walking around a lot more self-belief, a lot more compassion for ourselves, a lot more. But look, I think I love the fact that now we're having these conversations. I love the fact that there is a huge focus on mental wellbeing and emotional health. I love the fact that when we talk about fitness now and good health, it encompasses and includes things like having balanced emotions, connecting to your heart. All of these things that would've been perceived as being so woowoo and so taboo even 10 years ago is now becoming so mainstream and so talked about and so necessary, I think to it is coming into schools, meditation and mindfulness practises coming into schools, we were still getting our underpants checked when I was at school, lifting up my skirt, making sure I had grey underpants on.
(00:59:26):
I mean, mind blown. You know what I mean? How far we come, thank God. So I'm really encouraged around the conversations that we're having. And I sometimes go onto podcasts with 20 something and they asked me about the universe, and I'm like, God, when I was 20, the universe, what was that? That was never even a conversation that we're having. So I think it's heading in the right direction, and I love that we can sit here as two physical fitness trainers and have an esoteric conversation about how we feel and that not be weird. I love the fact that all of these places, these gyms and are bringing in meditation and yoga and things into their spaces that really can support people on a different level as well as just physical fitness. It really makes me think that we're heading in the right direction and we're going to be okay.
Brock Ashby (01:00:24):
Yeah. I think we also acknowledging the root problem. I think often fitness, and I've experienced this personally, but fitness is often just a, what is it? Like a manifestation of what's going on. You are trying to, let's say it's pretty common for people to be insecure about their bodies, so they will just work really hard to fix that in the gym by putting on muscle, maybe dropping body fat, which can be great for self-esteem and confidence, but it doesn't get to the root problem of why you may feel unhappy or on a deep level, not just, oh, my arms, I wish they were two centimetres higher,
Leah Simmons (01:01:06):
But why do you wish they were two centimetres higher? Who are you comparing yourself to, and is that a societal problem of we've projected that this is the ideal. There's so much in the space now with body positivity and we are seeing all different shapes and sizes of women on catwalks in advertising, and I think it's really, really important. And what's really interesting is women of my age, so I'm in my middle forties, we were brought up on that very thin. Everything was airbrushed. We had this real kind of nineties, early two thousands aesthetic of what was beautiful, and I now see 20 year olds walking down the street so confident in their bodies cropped tops, and everything's kind of out, and they're just walking around, look at me, I'm owning all this. Whereas women my age will be like, oh, I couldn't something that, it's a belief that's ingrained in you, and I'm loving watching just all the confidence that is oozing out of our youth, our millennials. It makes me really happy to see that they are embracing shapes, sizes, all of it.
Brock Ashby (01:02:16):
Yeah, I think it's health at all levels as like you're saying, it's not just the physical aspect because you could have that physical look like an absolute beast, but have zero confidence a hundred percent. But I guess one thing I hope is it doesn't go the other way where we're just so confident and we're taking away from the physical health aspects because I see that sort of stuff too. And I am all for body positivity, but I'm also all for actually being healthy, which is a different aspect.
Leah Simmons (01:02:45):
You want to make sure that it's not laziness disguised as, oh, own it. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:02:53):
I just love myself enough. It's like, well, there's a difference
Leah Simmons (01:02:56):
Between being, yeah, because obesity is a thing and health practises, but look, again, can't please everybody all of the time. Do you? And that's, I think, and what we share, as long as it's in so much as I like a little bit of scientific backing in the things that I like to share because that makes me feel comfortable and credible and that it's coming from a place of, it's been peer reviewed, so nothing that I do is made up. I don't pluck it out of thin air.
Brock Ashby (01:03:32):
Yeah. Well, actually that's what I really enjoyed your exercise selection today. If we go on the physical level, because that's why I don't like group classes sometimes because it's very just get a sweat and there's no thought of are we actually moving correctly or are we choosing good exercise?
Leah Simmons (01:03:49):
Exercise. That's why I talk all the time because I'm queuing constantly. Yeah, I loved it. I do upper lower push pull. I like isometric holds. I like eccentric and concentric phases. I'm still very much rooted in good technique and safety first. And also modifications. If you can't do something correctly, come into a position where you can feel the benefit, but still so that you're not compromising your safety or your technique. And again, I think this is one of the things that you have to face when you're teaching online is that I can't see a lot of the people, their videos are off. So I'm just having to trust in my own ability to cue their own ability to listen, my ability to demonstrate. And hopefully that all culminates in some form of a correct technique,
Brock Ashby (01:04:43):
But as long as your principles are correct and you're queuing correctly, then it's safe. Exactly. I have a similar thing. So when people sign up to Team Brock Ashby, whatever programme they decide, so I've done a detailed maybe one minute to, depending on the exercise, sometimes they take longer, one minute to three or four minutes tutorial on how to do it. And it's not just me doing it. And yeah, look at me. It's like me coaching a client through it, so it's so many hours doing that. I'd ask a PT friend, Hey, man, can I come film you? So we're going to do a dumbbell chest press with a neutral grip, then a pronated group, then a
Leah Simmons (01:05:18):
45 group. I mean, there's so many different variations. So I would
Brock Ashby (01:05:20):
Do all the videos so they all have them, but once again, I don't have, I'm not watching.
Leah Simmons (01:05:25):
You have to just,
Brock Ashby (01:05:26):
Sarah and America do her workouts. She just has access to the app.
Leah Simmons (01:05:30):
And Sarah, if you're watching, we are watching nail it.
Brock Ashby (01:05:34):
But like you're saying, as long as it's based in efficacy and it's efficient and it works, then
Leah Simmons (01:05:41):
You're good. And you know what? And I think that's what I'm also like, don't try and reinvent the wheel. A squat is a squat. Why are we trying to make it fancy? Why are we trying to deconstruct it? Why are we trying to do, it's an effective workout. It's a functional movement. I feel like there's so much trickery nowadays in everybody's trying to have a point of difference. And I know that me sitting here having created something, but I just think with movement, less is more in terms of go to what works. You can still make it fun, but it doesn't always have to be new and tricky because I feel like that's where you start to lose people. I find if people can't see themselves in space, half the people don't even know they're left from their right. Well, some people
Brock Ashby (01:06:31):
Think they're doing a squat perfectly, and you're looking at them going, that's not a great squat.
Leah Simmons (01:06:34):
Totally. And so I try to keep it as fun as possible, but not complicated and really try and bring movements in that people would do on a day-to-day basis. So bending and lifting up lots of rotation, lateral side stuff, squatting and because that's what's going to support people. That's what do moving forward. It's what we do. Exactly. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:07:03):
Well, that's what I dislike about social media. And we're on social media, so I guess we have this backing that we can talk confidently from. But even with TikTok and stuff, the videos that are going viral are people doing crazy exercises that no one would ever do in real life. And it's almost like the harder, the better, or the more complex, the better. I'm standing on one leg, but I'm holding a kettlebell hair and a dumbbell hair, and I'm doing a deadlift,
Leah Simmons (01:07:28):
Having a cup of tea, it's
Brock Ashby (01:07:30):
Like, how many things can I do at once? But the way I say it, the more complex something is, the more unstable it is. And when you're less stable, as you know, you're not strong
Leah Simmons (01:07:41):
And someone's going to go and try and do it. And I think that's where I start going, oh, you are doing this. Why are you doing this? It's to get, it's for shock value. It's for, it's an engagement post. It's an engagement post, and yay, we're all impressed. It's great. But you wouldn't do this in every day. But again, look, I'm not here to judge anybody else's techniques. All I know is that what's worked for me and what's worked for Kyra and what's worked for my clients and your clients obviously is this kind of tried and tested results driven basically around people just want results. That's what they pay for. That's what they pay for, that's what they come for, and they're getting it. So job done. Yeah, don't change it.
Brock Ashby (01:08:28):
Actually, one thing I loved about your class that I want to touch on a little bit is I was telling you about the spiritual aspect. So as you know, I spent from 14 to 22 in church heavily. I was a singer, I was writing songs. I was speaking, not necessarily preaching, but I was speaking right, sharing things, wrote songs out of experience, had all these kind of great times through it and grew a lot personally. So from 14 to 22, that is usually when you will go partying, go drinking, pursue girls, pursue men, whatever you want to do. I was in church,
Leah Simmons (01:09:01):
I
Brock Ashby (01:09:01):
Was writing songs, and I think that's actually where I grew up a lot because I had a lot of mentors at the time that were like 30, 40, 50, 60 speaking wisdom of me. And usually that's when you're not being wise, right? You're just kind of learning. So I was learning in a different
Leah Simmons (01:09:17):
Way. Learning through your mistakes. Yeah, yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:09:19):
I was learning through I guess foresight, and this is
Leah Simmons (01:09:22):
Through other people's mistakes.
Brock Ashby (01:09:23):
This is a great way to live. So I was doing that, but today when I was sitting there, so I used to, and this is going to get slightly, I guess churchy, if you want to put it that way. So when I was sitting there with my hands out like this, so at church often a lot you would feel warmth on your hands, and that can be whatever you are experiencing. It could be Jesus, it could be the Holy Spirit, it could be whatever, or maybe you just hands are warmth, but you have this kind of sensation, I should say. And I had that today and maybe that was just my arms were throbbing
Leah Simmons (01:09:54):
Or was it Yeah, that's right.
Brock Ashby (01:09:57):
Yeah. But I felt it. I guess what I see it as now is energy in my hands a
Leah Simmons (01:10:02):
Hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (01:10:02):
And I had this eyes were closed and stuff, and I had to get comfortable with it. I haven't done it in a while, sat there with my eyes closed and really be with my thoughts while my arms are up there. And I was kind of thinky things, but I had this, I guess, spiritual feeling and this, I guess spiritual encouragement. You can do it type of thing because this kind of warm, I guess it felt like as if someone was grabbing my hands and holding them up. I know this sounds weird, but yeah,
Leah Simmons (01:10:26):
That's so amazing. Wow. Yeah. But
Brock Ashby (01:10:29):
I had this feeling and the thoughts that were in my head, it helped me. I felt like, okay, I need to get them out of the way so I can get out of my own way type of thing. I kind of made all these decisions for things that I had to think, but really quick that I've been maybe laying on for one or two weeks decisions that I have to make. And I was like, bang, bang, bang. Maybe three or four answered. And then that was I guess a spiritual
Leah Simmons (01:10:54):
Experience that how long do you've procrastinated or ruminated on these decisions? Hundred. Had you not been pushed into a position where you were like, right, I'm here. I'm doing it. I mean, amazing. And first of all, you were contending with a whole lot of new stuff. It's new environment for me. I haven't sat here with my eyes closed. I haven't sat here with my arms out. Everything's hurting. I'm sweating. I've just done a workout, the breath, all of that stuff. So there's all of those things to take you out of the present moment. And then you've got, you are now being taken catapulted back to a feeling that you had when you were at a really pivotal time in your life. Wow, what is that? Why am I now getting this and why am I thinking about this is amazing? And you are right. What you said is exactly right.
(01:11:46):
It's energy. It is energy. You are energy. You are made of it. And we determine the quality of the energy that we cultivate for ourselves with every decision we make, with every thought that we have, with every emotion. Emotion is energy. Thoughts are energy, and they manifest in actions and behaviours. And so those actions and behaviours are either going to align with living to your truth, living a set of values, living whatever, or you're going to have this thing called cognitive dissonance where it's saying one thing and doing another, and the amount of energy that takes is mind blowing. That's why we feel depleted at the end of the day. That's why we feel we don't notice it. But if you, you've got anything that's going on in your life that is living in your head a tough conversation, you need to have a habit that you want to break a recurring pattern, a relationship that you want to get out of, the amount of energy that takes out of your day, out of your life is enormous. No wonder we are feeling, so we reach for that three o'clock chocolate hit or the coffee or whatever it is. We try and get those dopamine levels, those serotonin levels back up where actually it's our own behaviours that is driving this energy slump. We need to address that. It's that root. That's what we're talking about. It's the root cause.
(01:13:30):
I mean, I've had this so many times in my life where you'll ruminate on something and you will create scenarios around something in your head or having to do something. The 3000 different outcomes, what if this happens? We go into the future and then you spend a day doing that and oh my God, and blah, blah, and then you actually go and do the thing and it's never as bad as you think. No way. No way. Never. Right? Never. And you're like, why the hell did I spend so much time thinking about all the ways that it could go wrong when actually actually just gone and done it? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:14:06):
Actually there's a word for it. I think it might be, I think it's the gon or zagon effect, but it's like having open loopholes and you just need to close them because it's exactly what you're talking
Leah Simmons (01:14:14):
About. Yes. You've got to plug them.
Brock Ashby (01:14:15):
Yeah, you have to stop it. Yeah. Or else it's
Leah Simmons (01:14:17):
Just going to keep, yeah, we have these feedback loops
Brock Ashby (01:14:19):
And the more we leave them, the more weight it kind of harbours, I guess if you look at it, if you're in a boat and there's holes everywhere, if you just leave them, you're just going to keep sinking. But you need to,
Leah Simmons (01:14:30):
Yeah, we need to plug them all up. Plug them up, and the more we subscribe to these sort of feedback loops, it actually, they create neural pathways in our brain and it's like they're trenches, and so you can reprogram your brain. They've now proven that the brain is malleable. There's a thing called neuroplasticity. So we can actually fire new synapses, new connections, new neural pathways and things like breath work is amazing to do. That flooding the body with oxygen, that real oxygen hit disrupting our natural breath cycle retention of carbon dioxide. There's all these things that are starting to come into the mainstream where we can actually train our brain and improve our brain health, get it firing a little bit more. Those connections, those synapses, and these are the things that are going to start to help us form new habits. And the habitual things that we do in our life are going to determine the quality of our life.
(01:15:35):
If you constantly reaching for the sugar, if you're smoking, if you are alcohol, if you're this and that, the other, and I'm not saying, oh my God, don't, don't go and no one's asking you to be a monk. I'm certainly not a monk. I like to have fun. I like to go out and do my thing, but it's not a habit. It's not a habitual thing that I have no control over. It's not something that controls me. Do you know what I mean? It's not where I go to get my dopamine hit. It's not where I go to get my serotonin or those feel good hormones.
Brock Ashby (01:16:05):
Yeah, your fulfilment.
Leah Simmons (01:16:08):
And unfortunately in society, those are the things that people go because it's easy. It's a quick fix. It's that instant gratification. It's as bad as social media and getting those likes and so easy that gives that instant thing, but it's not lasting. It's actually damaging. And what we want to try and do is to take back control over our quality of life and not be at the mercy of bad habits. And so for me, those, that combination of practises that have gone into a Kay class were the things that allowed me to take back control of my own happiness and my own wellbeing and my own mind and my own heart. It really connected me to how I was feeling, how I wanted to feel, being able to look at myself in the mirror and know that even when I wasn't feeling great, I still was worthy of love and being loved and accepting love and giving love, and the people around me would openly receive that, and that's a really, really nice feeling. So
Brock Ashby (01:17:19):
Yeah, I like to look at the decisions that we make as I kind of had, not really a vision, but a kind of a picture. When you walk through, let's say the bush, every time you walk a path, it gets easier to see the grass pathways and there's more of a path on the ground. The more you walk that, the easier it gets to see and follow that path. When you make a decision the first time, you have no idea what it's like and you're like, oh, I'll try this. And you do it once, and then if you do it two times and three times, but then when you do it 10 times, it's that neuroplasticity thing you're saying. You can keep walking down that path and it becomes familiar. But then if you want to say that's a habit now and say it's a bad habit, you're always reaching for a drink and you reach for a drink again for a month, then you need to change it. It's like walking into a lost bush. You're like, this is unfamiliar. Dunno what's around the corner. It could be very hard, but the more you do it, the more that path becomes clear and the previous path begins to grow over and become That's
Leah Simmons (01:18:19):
Right. More lost. I think to that point of that analogy, and I love it so much, is we carve our paths and that can be for good habits or bad habits. If we want to deviate off that path into a different thing, sometimes we just stop because no decision or inaction is also an action, if that makes sense. So we don't have to replace this way with a different way all the time. Maybe we just have to replace this way with no way for a minute, just stop for a second. And you don't have to know where you want to go next, but you just have to know that you don't want to go that way anymore and take some time to really figure out what it feels like to have options. I know that this is not serving me this direction, this habit, this pattern.
(01:19:13):
I dunno where I want to go next. By choosing to not go down that path, I've actually already made a decision. So that's an action, that's a choice, and I'm just going to sit for a little bit and just be with this new way of being. And then hopefully the new behaviour, the new habit, the new pathway will show itself. It's not going to be me forcing my way through everything all of the time. It's going to allow myself to feel into it a little bit more. And back to your point, I feel like we always feel like we want to be busy and doing things. Who am I? If I'm not doing 20 things at once, and believe me, I'm the same as well. Yeah. You're like,
Brock Ashby (01:19:53):
I'm lazy or I should be doing more,
Leah Simmons (01:19:55):
But doing nothing is a choice. And I said this the other day to my class, I was like, when we feel like nothing's happening, we feel like nothing's happening. But actually when nothing is happening, we've actually created space for all of the things that we've set up in our life to happen to actually happen. Do you know what I mean? We've actually sat back and gone, okay, now I'm just going to enjoy being in this moment where things can actually happen rather than throwing another thing in the way or pivoting again or going in a different direction. We don't ever allow time and space for things to actually just manifest,
Brock Ashby (01:20:33):
But that's so hard say
Leah Simmons (01:20:36):
That's a belief. Okay.
Brock Ashby (01:20:37):
No, no, no. So let me finish my sentence. I'm saying that's hard when you have say social media, which is something that's easy just to grab and fill in time. Yes. It's hard to do nothing to allow things to happen. I wasn't saying personally, obviously I do struggle with just sitting there being, but yeah, we don't have boredom anymore. No, we don't. So my wife pulls me up on it all the time, like it's quiet and I'm like, let's what the music on. And she's like, just sit there
Leah Simmons (01:21:04):
In the car to be comfortable in silence.
Brock Ashby (01:21:06):
Yeah, I'm not the best at that. It's just nice to have music on. I'm just put some music on or I'm just going to do this thing or do that thing.
Leah Simmons (01:21:15):
So now that you know that this is potentially a little block for you, not being able to sit in silence or not being able to sit with your thoughts, if I were you, I would be like, okay, I'm going to take myself off for a three day silent retreat.
Brock Ashby (01:21:30):
Is that not speaking or just
Leah Simmons (01:21:32):
Not speaking? No tech being with your thoughts. Oh, I know I have to plan challenging.
Brock Ashby (01:21:39):
I might do that when the baby's born, make that nice and convenient.
Leah Simmons (01:21:44):
Your wife is going to kill me. No, but you know what I mean. Now you're like, okay, what are the harder things in my life? It's easy. I'm good at all these things. I'm successful in all of these areas. I know that I'm actually not getting fulfilment from continually doing those things over and over. I know that I can do them. What would really allow me to harness a little bit more of my own potential is doing something that I know I'm terrible at that is going to be hard and that I'm probably going to dislike for the entirety of it. But oh my God, when I come out of that, if I do it, it's like fasting or doing any of those things that the minute that you tell someone that you can't have something, you just want it. That's all you think about all the time. If you are deprived of it, then oh my God, give me that thing. Do you know what I mean? Flip that conversation. I like to think about fasting not as a deprivation, but it's a fast track to potential, a fast track to breakthrough, a breakthrough. It's a fast track and it's three days of your life or it's five days of your life, or it's whatever you want to do. And it doesn't have to be a terrible experience. It's same thing, three days of silence. Oh my God, imagine how much I'm going to know myself.
Brock Ashby (01:23:01):
Right? I'm scared of three days of
Leah Simmons (01:23:05):
Sounds terrifying. They did this study, I can't remember, I'll have to Google it or whatever, but they did a study in the states, I think it was in the nineties or the early two thousands where they hooked people up to an electric shock machine that delivered them a pretty decent voltage of electric shock. And they gave them two options. They said, you can either sit for 15 minutes with yourself, with your thoughts, or you can choose to shock yourself and come out of the experiment Early. 68% of people chose to inflict physical pain by way of an electric shock just so they wouldn't have to sit with themselves for 15 minutes. 15 minutes. This is how scared of our own psyche and our own thoughts we are. That's what I find interesting. What would you take? Would you take the shot? Oh, 15 minutes all day, every day.
(01:24:07):
I love sitting with my own thoughts. I find it's like a carnival because I'm not attached to it. I'm not in it. I'm a spectator now at my thoughts. And it doesn't mean that they stop. It doesn't mean that they even get any less ludicrous or ridiculous. It just means that I don't attach to them anymore as becoming either an action, a behaviour, and sometimes they do believe me, and you're about to embark on this, I have a 4-year-old and a 13-year-old, and sometimes they'll push me to the point where I will act without being able to catch that thought and I'll scream at them or I'll yell or something will come out and then I'll be like, would I have done that differently? Hell yeah. But we learn from it. And let me tell you the amount of time I now sit in debating myself over whether I want to do something or sitting in that spiral of self-deprecation or sitting in that rabbit hole of whatever it is I get taken has been drastically reduced from two hours to two minutes.
(01:25:15):
And that's the muscle. That's the work training. Yeah. I don't think we designed to always have positive thoughts. I just don't think that that's the way that we are manufactured. I do believe, however, that we can choose how long we want to sit with those negative thoughts and ask ourselves, is this thought going to add value to my life or is it going to take away? It's as simple as that. And if you can approach it from a pragmatic, kind of rational place like that, then I think in certain situations, I mean obviously there's going to be things like trauma and grief and heartbreak and all those things. And yes, feel the full spectrum of those emotions. Go through it, release, cry, do all those things. Don't let it define you. I mean, how often have we been in the moment where it was like, oh my God, you've broken up with someone. It's the worst day of your life, the worst things have ever happened, and then six months later you're like, that was the best thing that ever happened to me. Do you know what I mean? Pain is the
Brock Ashby (01:26:27):
Only way
Leah Simmons (01:26:27):
To transformation. Totally. It's like you change your perspective and you change your view of a situation. And all it is, all we have is our relationship to the event. And that goes for everything. And time is a great healer. You can reduce the amount of time simply by changing your view, but how do we keep that view consistent? It's through practises that raise the energy levels in all of those areas of our life, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, keeping in good health, keeping that energy flowing, feeling good about ourselves, cultivating good beliefs. And so Kaya is a tool to be able to help you keep those energy levels high so that you can be making good decisions, thinking good thoughts, feeling good emotions. And
Brock Ashby (01:27:19):
So what would you say to someone that struggles with dropping things like that? Dropping events, because I'm all for, I guess my piece of advice would be yours to express them. I'm a big crier. My wedding day was horrendous. I was just crying. Beautiful. My face off. Thank you. There's not many good photos. That's amazing. The aisle walk is so
Leah Simmons (01:27:42):
Bad.
Brock Ashby (01:27:44):
Yeah, my wife's favourite one is, I could show you later, but my face is all screwed up and it was terrible. I'm a big express myself kind of guy. I just like, I don't get angry too much, but I will go quiet if I have to deal with something because probably until I need to cry it out, it's just like, I think it's beautiful that you allow
Leah Simmons (01:28:06):
Yourself to be vulnerable
Brock Ashby (01:28:07):
Like that. If I have things to deal with. And I have the same with my friend, he's like, we'll cry it out and then we need a big sleep and then we'll wake up and it's like we're a new person. We have thought.
Leah Simmons (01:28:17):
Do you think, is that a cultural thing for you? Was your family emotional like that? Did they express themselves? You
Brock Ashby (01:28:26):
Know what, not really. No. So not really. My dad's not very emotional. We've always expressed that stuff like dad taught me guitar, I guess musically in that way. But I think that I got this way to be honest. Through church. Through the church? Yeah. Because it was just like I was a rugby player, classic New Zealand guy. I want to be in the All Blacks play sport, rah, rah, rah, right?
Leah Simmons (01:28:51):
Masculine, masculine, macho,
Brock Ashby (01:28:52):
Macho. And then when I got into music and started writing songs and started going to church and stuff, I was open to this kind of different energy that was singing, that was being a bit more kind of, I guess open-minded and dealing with my stuff. And once you've cried in front of 500 people and you're on stage with a guitar,
Leah Simmons (01:29:13):
Yeah, come at me and you can't sing, throw at me, whatever. I got you. You can handle anything.
Brock Ashby (01:29:20):
So I was just like, I'm just going to go through it. So that's how I go through
Leah Simmons (01:29:22):
Things. Strength through vulnerability, huge. Do you know what I mean? I think when you don't become stronger by being your most confident self, you become stronger by being your most vulnerable exposed self. When people can see you and you're like, holy shit, how do I deal with this? That's where you find that inner strength. That's where you find that inner fire. That's where you find that inner ability in yourself to be like, okay, I've got two choices here. I can crumble or I can really, and sometimes, I mean all crying is crying and laughing and screaming. It's just an energy release. So you're just shifting something that needs to move through your body and it's the way that you are expressing it. And I want to normalise crying. Yeah, me too. And men crying. I'm a huge fan. I'm sure. I'll ask your wife. I'll wait until your baby is born. Yeah. Oh
Brock Ashby (01:30:23):
My God. Yeah. No, she gets it. But I think that, yeah, after every kind of breakdown or whatever, I get clarity, I get like, that's beautiful. Yeah. Like you say, strength, okay, I know what to do now. Not that it's all about doing stuff, but I feel more capable that something's kind of out of the way, which is probably my thing. But what would you say your advice would be if people can't drop it? I think it's like people have to experience their things. Yes. If they're addicted to alcohol because of some event, they're having alcohol to kind of block it up and put it away. But they haven't dealt with it yet and they could be 50, 60 years old and still haven't dealt with something that happened when they were 20. Yep.
Leah Simmons (01:31:01):
So my number one piece of advice is just show up. Come as you are, do not have any expectations around anything beyond sitting on that mat period. Because just showing up and knowing that it might not be perfect. It might not look perfect, it might not feel perfect, but I'm here is half the battle won because not a lot of people even do that. So if you've made it to the mat, fucking bravo. Well done. You are already halfway there. The second one is compassion. So don't have any expectations over doing anything perfectly. Having to keep up with you are your own barometer. Only where you are at and what you are capable of in that moment. And if you last for 30 seconds, well done. If you do two pushups, well done. You know what I mean? As long as you can sit there and go, I really tried and I gave 'em my best and I'm going to show up tomorrow and do it again.
(01:32:08):
So there's five principles of Kaya and they are courage, which is just show up. Okay, commitment, just keep doing it day in, day out, compassion for yourself. Alright, consciousness. So meet yourself and then greet yourself because it's different every day. And then community, which is share. So really engage people around you and be vulnerable in that space because nine and a half times out of 10 they will resonate because they're going through something as well that they might not have the courage to be able to talk about. And you opening up your door will help open up somebody else's door. And that's beautiful. That connection I think is a really important aspect of anybody's growth. We are not designed to go it alone. We are social animals. We are designed to move in packs. We are designed to be in communities, to foster villages, to be raised by everyone.
(01:33:16):
I feel like why we've kind of retreated is there's a bit of an information overload now. We are so exposed to everything that's happening on the other side of the planet. There's this feeling of helplessness, there's this feeling of overwhelm. There's this feeling of, well, what can I do? I'm only one person. Focus on yourself, your own growth. Be the best you that you can be. Start local, start small. There's a million things that you can do in your own community to help your fellow human do a random act of kindness once a week, pay it forward someone's coffee behind you once a week. Do those tiny little things and I promise you, you are going to start feeling so much better about yourself. And that is contagious. Your energy feel. Once you start going out with that sort of vibe, your vibe attracts your tribe and all that kind of stuff.
(01:34:11):
Whatever. It's true. Yeah, it is true. And that's what we say about raising your vibration. So emotions have a frequency and shame, guilt, fear, anger. Live right down around 50 hertz not great. That's your low vibe. As you start to move up, you come into places of courage and acceptance and willingness and love. 5 28 hertz all the way up to what do you think is number one at the top? 900 Hertz? Happiness. Gratitude. Oh, gratitude. That's why gratitude is such a powerful thing to invoke. That's why gratitude practises because instantly it catapults you up into that amazing space of feeling good. If you can be grateful about something in your life when you're feeling low, it instantly makes you feel better.
Brock Ashby (01:34:59):
Yeah. That's why I read that thing every morning. Yeah. I feel like it makes me, I had another vision thing, I guess I'm quite symbolic in my head. It makes me feel like steel. If you wake up grateful and especially I think it's a bit of a superpower in the hardship type of thing, losing my mom. When you're young, you feel even that makes me feel still because I've dealt with all that kind of stuff. You feel like once you go through that you can handle quite a lot of things, a hundred percent like almost everything.
Leah Simmons (01:35:27):
And you don't wish that on anybody, but you just say, thank you for showing me. This was unveiling my superpower. And there's always gratitude to be found in every situation, even though it feels like despair, total despair. And it might not be in the moment, it might be years later, it could be whatever, but every opportunity in your life is one to learn from and one to be grateful
Brock Ashby (01:35:55):
For. Yeah. And when you start your day with that, you feel like you can kind of take on anything. Exactly.
Leah Simmons (01:36:02):
And that's how you want to start your day. You don't want to be like, I heard this great podcast the other day with Jay Shetty and Dr. Daniel Amon who has this brain health thing. And he was like, the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is tell myself that today is going to be a great day. Because what it does is your words feed your subconscious and your subconscious is basically programming what you are going to be thinking during that day. If you wake up going, today's going to be crappy, well guess what? Today's going to be crappy. If you wake up at least giving yourself the best chance going, today's going to be a great day, then at least you've sort of set yourself up in your mind. And it's so simple to do. And
Brock Ashby (01:36:48):
Then, sorry, also, when you set the tone for the day, when you take control, it eliminates other things. If you just reach for your phone first thing and you see that, I dunno, the queen has died, then you've already let that kind of dictate the way that you're thinking that day. Obviously it's a sad time, but it was probably a bad example, but you're right. But if you told yourself wake up and you were grateful and you had some sort of routine or you just, I'm going to have a great day today. If you saw that it's going to have a different effect than if you were just an open book. I'm ready to be influenced. What's the day going to bring? Okay, going to be how
Leah Simmons (01:37:22):
Much do let other people's situations influence our day before we even open our eyes properly? We've got five people's stories in our mind. We haven't even had a chance to assimilate into our day. I've got my daughter back at the moment. I do a month on a month off with her and she, I'm not ashamed to say it. She sleeps in my bed. She's four. I know I'm never having any more children, so this is the last opportunity that I'm going to get with her. And I don't have her all the time. And let me tell you, sleep is a myth. When she's in my bed for me, she's doing circle work. She's taking the covers down to one end. She's coming and she's fast asleep, by the way. I'm having the worst. I've got a king size bed. I get the strip edge side of it. She's constantly pushing into me and I wake up in the morning, I've got a foot in my eye, she's dribbled all over me. And I literally can't not look at her with just this overwhelming sense of love and gratitude because even though I've had no sleep and I've got a black eye, Hey Kay. Yeah, exactly.
(01:38:32):
I'm just like, I just save her every single second that I have with her and know that it's going to be fleeting in the grand scheme of things. I already see my 13-year-old drifting off into teenage land and I'm like, bye. It was nice knowing you. Yeah, that's a different one. And so I really, I'm now much more present with her because I'm like, this is fleeting. I am going to look back on these moments and wish that I'd had her toe up my nose a bit more. You feel lonely or that I had pushed her away. So those are the lessons that I learned is be present with all those things. Find gratitude for all of those things. Even if they seem completely horrible at the time, there's going to be some time in your life where you look back and you go, I'm really glad that happened because it was either a really great experience or it taught me this. It's plain and simple,
Brock Ashby (01:39:28):
Kind of like, oh, what's the saying? You don't lose you learn type of thing. Yes. Yeah, exactly. You either win or you
Leah Simmons (01:39:34):
Learn. You either win or you learn. I said, yeah, exactly. And it's true. It's very
Brock Ashby (01:39:38):
True. A hundred percent. So I've got three questions that I just want to wrap it up with since we're getting towards the end. They're not crazy just so this is the Better with Brock podcast, right. So I love fitness, but I see it as a tool of self-development. Yes. I love, I fell in love with self-development when I jumped in that Honda Civic and drove up to Auckland and didn't have any friends. I kind of lent on books for a while and I just dove into books and I felt like that kind of saved me for a while. And even though the self-help industry can be a bit motivation and a bit like that, it kind of saved me at the time. And now I kind of take what I like and leave what I don't like. But I'm a big fan of self-development, so I just have a few questions around that. So even though you already have the quote on your sleeve there about I can do anything, what is one quote that you think has helped you become better?
Leah Simmons (01:40:40):
So my 100 and 1-year-old, well, he nearly got to 101, my 100-year-old grandfather. Wow. Yes. What a run. I know, right? He was two months shy of his and first birthday. Good old grandpa, Jack. He passed away about seven years ago. But he said two things to me. He was a man of few words, but they were wise words. Number one, go for the dough. That didn't eventuate in my life. But anyway, number two, and this has stuck with me, don't expect, and I could never, I sort of was like, don't get it. What does that mean? And I think it really comes down to this whole thing that we have around expectation is don't expect to me means you can't control how other people react to you. You can only control how you react to in a situation. And that has been so freeing for me. No expectations, no attachments, focus on me. And it was really powerful and it took me quite a long time to understand what that meant for me, but I think he had it in the bag. So yeah, don't expect.
Brock Ashby (01:41:59):
I like that. Second one. Do you have a book that has helped you become better?
Leah Simmons (01:42:06):
Yes. I loved The Alchemist. I've read that. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic story. I think it's a great story. I read it to my children. It's like a universal thing. I just love the journey that he goes on in all those realisations. So that's been amazing. I mean, I too, you am just a book nerd. Just love. Yeah. I wouldn't say there's any one definitive book. I take pieces from different ones and use them to write the book of my own life. But I love diving into everything from nonfiction to fiction, to self-development stuff, to murder mysteries, to whatever it is. If I'm just feeling like I'm reading a great book at the moment called Conversations, what is it? Oh my God. Now I can't remember. Confessions of the Bird or Conference of the Birds. Conference of the Birds. And it's a story about how in the seventies, this group of actors, actually Helen Miran was one of the actors. They did this incredible odyssey through Africa and they just stopped in all these amazing places and would put out a carpet and just perform and all the different cultural things that they came up against. I, so there's a whole bunch of stuff that I'm reading. But yes, the Alchemist, I think for me was a very powerful book. It's one that I come back to a lot. So I read it a lot.
Brock Ashby (01:43:39):
I just finished one from Ryan Holiday called Courages Calling, and I'm on a second one called, well not a second book, but of the, he's got a series of the, for kind of, I don't know, pillars of stoicism type of thing. But a quote that I love at the moment from that book is, and it's really simple, but for me it's inspiring at the moment to find, I guess for me to, at the moment, I feel like I'm at a place where I need to find hard things and pursue them. Where when I first went online, it's a new world and it's difficult, but then you find that you have more time and you can be complacent or you can find hard things and pursue. So I feel like I'm at this place and it's a quote, if not me, then who? If not now, than
Leah Simmons (01:44:26):
When. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:44:27):
And it's super simple, but I was just like, man, I feel like I'm called.
Leah Simmons (01:44:32):
Pick me. Yeah, totally. So another one of my favourite books that you just reminded me was a book called Untamed by a woman called Glennon Doyle. And she has a podcast and her biggest thing was We can Do Hard Things and that's it. It's what the podcast is called because it's about fuck that. Just because it's hard. We can do hard things. I think we're made for hard things. We are made for hard things, and I think we've become soft as we've evolved. And now we're starting to realise that it's in us, it's in our DNA, it's part of who we are. We are resilient, we have courage, and we can do these things that are, I mean, God, life isn't hard. Imagine if we had to go out and kill a wildebeest and drag it through the please. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:45:18):
Actually, I've been talking about this lately because life has gone from survival. So we've overcome that. There's food and abundance
Leah Simmons (01:45:26):
Now for some of us.
Brock Ashby (01:45:27):
Yeah, that's a privileged thing to say for most of us, right? In the western world, we are food. We don't have to hunt for food. So survival is kind of ticked off in terms of we can go to Woolworths and buy food and we're okay, but now it's like, what's next? So it's kind of like this fulfilment kind of original,
Leah Simmons (01:45:48):
But can you see, there's actually a pushback against that whole very cushy life and people are starting to go back to living off grid and living off the land and really just using what they need. And this kind of over consumption, over commercialised, over commoditized is starting to become a little bit, there's a backlash against it. And let's return to the land, let's return to nature, let's return to our roots. I like that movement. Go back to living simply, but with meaning and not treating the earth. It's just there for our consumption, actually working with it because part of it, and we're not separate from it and we're killing it and we can't keep going the way that we're going because we will run out of resources and then we'll be like, oops. But
Brock Ashby (01:46:42):
That's very
Leah Simmons (01:46:42):
Hard to undo. Once we get to that point, it's going to be a bit late. So I think that now we're starting to realise that climate change is real. We need to take action. Let's try and leave the planet better than we. It's all these things. It's literally about being aware. It's about being conscious of our choices, our decisions, and being a little less selfish, being a little bit more. Alright. What's question number three?
Brock Ashby (01:47:11):
Last question. What is one thing you do every day that helps you become better?
Leah Simmons (01:47:16):
One thing I do every day that helps me become better is like I find something to be grateful for. So whether it's something tiny, it always is something small. I think the more I get into it, I'm appreciating the smaller things in my life. And then obviously Kaya, I do Kaya every day. That helps me become better.
Brock Ashby (01:47:40):
So on that note, just kind of wrapping up, what's next for Kayah or what's next for you?
Leah Simmons (01:47:44):
What's next for Lisa? So much is happening
Brock Ashby (01:47:47):
Or that you want to talk about, that you want to make people aware of?
Leah Simmons (01:47:50):
Well, the platform, we're growing the platform. We're bringing a lot more community stuff into the platform. So that's all underway. I mean, it's just this constant work in progress. Obviously finding a team that resonates and so we're doing that. In terms of Leah, I'm just continuing doing what I'm doing. I've got a few things in the pipeline that we're working on. I can't really talk about 'em too much at the moment, but just know that, watch this space. Watch this space. That's all we can say. Yes.
Brock Ashby (01:48:25):
All right. Well thank you very much for coming to the
Leah Simmons (01:48:26):
Podcast. Appreciate your time. Thank so much for having me. It's been great.
Brock Ashby (01:48:30):
Awesome. Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number 22 of the Better with Brock podcast. I have Erin with me. She is actually the most recent winner of the Built by Brock eight Week Challenge that I'm yet to announce, which I will announce before. This is long show, so you will know. But yeah, Erin has come a long way. I don't want to tell her. Sorry, I'll let her tell it. But she's done an amazing job of, I guess turning her situation around. She came, I think it was right at the start when you were in the Moon Boot when you signed up. But yeah, Erin, thanks for coming on. I appreciate your time. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Can you give, I guess just a little bit of an intro to who you are and then we can kind of talk about, I guess, where you've come from and what your journey's been like?
Erin (00:00:54):
Sure. So I live in the United States. I had heard about you from my cousin. So he had used, I think one-on-one training, I believe, but it could have been Who's your cousin? Tim?
Brock Ashby (00:01:10):
Yes. One-on-one. Okay. His sister, Betsy.
Erin (00:01:15):
Betsy too. So those are my cousins.
Brock Ashby (00:01:17):
Oh, right. I didn't even know that.
Erin (00:01:18):
Yeah, surprised.
(00:01:22):
So they had told me about you and at the time, I mean, I've always been really active and done a bunch of stuff, and I don't know, I always had you in the back of my head a little bit, and I started, I think following you and kind of looking at some of your stuff, but I didn't feel like I had a great reason to reach out. So I got into, I've always really liked running and I got into running a little bit too much. I get into things, into habits, and we got a treadmill, which I was super excited about. So I started doing treadmill bootcamp workouts with sprints and inclines and all of the things that I like, which I know that sounds crazy, but I like those things. That is crazy. I started doing it every day until I started having some pain in my foot, and they had thought it was a stress fracture.
(00:02:22):
So my doctor had put me in the moon boot. I was in it for three weeks. So before that, I've always worked out hard and consistently, but never the same. I never really had great results because I didn't always have a plan. It was unorganised or I would push myself too hard and get hurt, and then I would backtrack, and it was always kind of like that. Well, after having two kids, my plan was every day to work out when I got home from work, but when I got up, I put in the boot, I kind of felt, oh my God, if I can't run or do anything that I'm used to doing to maintain where I'm at, what's going to happen? Am I just going to start packing on weight? All of the things that I can do to stay where I'm at without really significant progress, but just stay where I'm at and be okay with it.
(00:03:21):
I can't even do that. So I started to panic a little bit, and I thought, I think that your programme was more weightlifting and with the boot that could be an option. And I reached out to you and you were so kind and you got back to me right away and kind of explained, you don't need to do any cardio during this. And I even had asked you, I think specifically like, I'm in this boot, do you think I should wait until I'm out of it or should I do, what do you think? And you gave me good advice, and I thought, okay, well, the price is right for me. I don't have a tonne of extra money right now with our two kids and daycare and all of those expenses. And so for the time I thought, okay, one-on-one really isn't going to work, but your other programme that you said would be a good fit based on my budget that I presented to you, I thought, okay, if it doesn't work or it doesn't work for my lifestyle or whatever, I won't be out a lot of money, so what's the harm? So I was really, really happy when I started seeing results right away and I thought, oh my God, how have I been missing this?
Brock Ashby (00:04:30):
Yeah, it seems like you just dive into things when you really enjoy them, and often that's quite hard for me to get people to buy in, especially because it sounds like I'm biassed. I'm like, you need a structured programme. And it sounds like I'm just trying to money grab people into training with me, but it's like if you just tried it,
(00:04:55):
It'll start working, but you just kind of need to dive in. And it sounds like you did that too with your running as well. But that's what I often say to people, not that they're going to get injured when they run, but it's actually quite, especially if you're doing treadmill workouts every everyday treadmill and mixing that with running and doing all sorts of other stuff, often you'll throw in burpees and jumps and it's quite stressful on the knees and stuff like that. So often I don't say to everyone, you don't have to do cardio, but often if you mix that with weights, it can be a lot of pressure on your knees and you can get things that actually put people out for a bit to actually slow their results. I remember I trained a lady here in Sydney when I was doing face-to-face training for a minute, and she actually, she started in a moon boot as well.
(00:05:44):
I didn't tell you this, but yeah, I had to travel to her work and bring equipment to her and do things that we couldn't do things standing. So we would sit on an exercise ball and do overhead presses and do lateral raises, just kind of do anything that wasn't really from running, but it's limiting. But there's always a solution, and I can't remember the exact words that I said to you, but that would've been what I conveyed is we can work around it. There's always, I think the worst thing you can do when you are injured is completely stop everything, number one, from a motivational point of view, you just feel like you're doing nothing with yourself. You've gone from in your situation doing bootcamps every day to just sitting on your ass. It doesn't feel good from a motivational point of view. It just feels very static. And then from, and I've always
Erin (00:06:35):
Worked so hard, so hard and had little results. I mean, I felt better. My cardio endurance was great. I'd get faster and be able to do those types of things, and I'd set goals, especially running goals, and I'd meet them. But I never really saw a huge change in myself physically, especially after having those two kids. I felt like it was so much harder to bounce back and get stronger despite my best efforts and to be able to put forth all of that energy into running. My first goal was I wanted to run a full marathon before my kid's first birthday, and I did it, but in order to do that and all of the training that goes with it, I mean, you have to be eating and eating because you just get dizzy and weak and headaches and all of those things when you're going out for 10, 12 mile runs for training runs. I would never get really, and I thought everybody that runs is skinny. Why am I not skinny? This doesn't make any sense. But yeah, I don't know.
Brock Ashby (00:07:46):
So why was it running at the start? Why did you decide, okay, I'm going to do heaps of running? Did you grow up doing running or did you just enjoy it? Did a friend introduce it to you?
Erin (00:07:56):
I've actually been a soccer player my entire life. I started playing travel soccer when I was, I think seven years old, but I played kids Bumblebee soccer and things like that before that What's
Brock Ashby (00:08:08):
Travel soccer?
Erin (00:08:11):
It's like competitive soccer that you do outside of your school. It's a soccer club.
(00:08:19):
But I did that all through. And then my adult years, I coached and played on co-ed teams and intramural type teams and stuff like that and kept it going, but then shocking, I sustained two ankle injuries. One I was supposed to have surgery for and I did not, but I ended up being okay and able to run and things like that. After that, I went through all of my physical rehab. First came back, I stepped in a hole running backwards and did the other one. And I was a nurse, a working adult at the time who I worked in a hospital. I was on my feet all day, so I had to be off work completely two times for months because I was non-weightbearing and then toe touch, weight bearing and all those things. And I thought, it's not worth it. I'm a grownup. I can't not go to work. It's not an option for me anymore. And it broke my heart, but I had to stop playing soccer. So running was always something I thought was fun, and it was challenging and I kind of could control it a little bit. So I thought I'll just do that. And I did some CrossFit and bootcamp workouts and a little bit of some MMA type open gym things, just stuff that I thought was fun. I like high intensity, but I'm like, stop or go. I was never go on a walk boring. That's not fun
(00:09:46):
Because I liked that stuff. So I get kind of down in the dumps when I couldn't play soccer and running kind of filled that for me.
Brock Ashby (00:09:55):
So when you joined built by Brock, what was it like going through? You don't have to talk about training in the Moon boot or anything, but that's my kind of starting point from when I met you. So what was it like going from, I guess running and doing fully intense stuff to doing gym-based workouts? Because it is different. It's not like in the gym if you just train, I know you train hard, but if you just train hard all the time, it's a bit more, I guess, strategic. It is not just like go in and just go balls to the wall and then leave. It's a bit more of a strategy. So how did you adjust to that?
Erin (00:10:37):
I liked the challenge of that. I've always liked lifting weights, but I never really did it, and I never had a lot of structure and guidance, I guess. So I mean, I would do it, but I didn't really have a great plan. So I liked that the plan was super simple and I was able to follow along. And if I didn't know what something was, I could look at a video and kind of figure it out. I would usually go through and watch each video for the exercises just to make sure I really knew what it was, and then I would go through and do it. I thought it was, I liked it because it was new and it was a challenge, and I didn't find anything to be boring or anything like that, which was good for me. I was pleasantly surprised in that because I was so used to whatever, but I can still control my music, so I still can put my headphones on and listen to whatever and make it as intense as I want to. So I have really enjoyed that.
Brock Ashby (00:11:40):
So did you find weights boring beforehand? Because that's quite a common thing. I've never found it boring just because I loved it, but I know that some people just don't enjoy weights, especially coming from soccer and coming from a sporting background where it's so dynamic and you're vering real life people in front of you. It's exciting. And then sometimes when you go to the gym, it's like, oh, well now these things aren't moving. They don't talk back. They just sit there and I just lift them up and put them down. That's what I think sometimes. That's why I enjoy jiu-jitsu. I'm a big fan of people doing sport. Well, especially people that aren't active because it kind of disguises health in something fun. When I do, I'm going for 90 minutes. I'm wrestling, I'm fighting, I'm kind of doing whatever, and you don't realise, but I'm like, I'm sweating. You sweat so much. But then at the end of 90 minutes, you think it's fun. Sometimes when you walk into the gym, it's like, this isn't as fun.
Erin (00:12:37):
Yeah. Yeah, I know what you're saying. That part was a little bit challenging because I had shift my mindset, but I really, going into it beforehand, I watched a bunch of the videos on the nutrition and the strategy and the science behind things that you had put in there, and I kind of prepared myself because my options at the time were nothing. I was just going to sit at home and rot for weeks or whatever if I wasn't able to do that. So I thought, okay, I'm going to figure this out. This is a good approach. I'm going to listen, try to listen and pay attention and figure out what I need to do. And I liked that part of it. It was almost like a game for me to try to navigate through something that I didn't already know everything about, because that's just easy to say, oh, I know how to lift weights, or I know how to do this or this. But
Brock Ashby (00:13:34):
Yeah, I saw that quite a lot, and I think you actually do move really well, but quite a lot of people that I saw, especially as a personal trainer, when I see them, they'll say, oh yeah, I know how to squat. I know how to deadlift. And then just because I'm curious, I'll say, okay, let's go out to the gym floor and show me your squat. And it's not what they think, especially when you film people, because sometimes when you do a movement, you think you're really nailing it, and then you see what you're doing and it doesn't matter what you think you're doing. So it's always like if
Erin (00:14:08):
Someone records you dancing.
Brock Ashby (00:14:11):
Yeah, I thought I was moving a lot better than that. Yeah, it's similar to that. So I always get a bit cautious when I hear that, but you actually do move well in the gym. What would you say would be, I guess, the biggest difference of, I guess the little kind of weights bootcamp work to actually doing something structured? Was it more like you had to focus on form a bit more? Was it like you actually count your reps and sets and tempo now as opposed to just like, oh, I'll just do 10 of these and 10 of these. Because one piece of feedback I get a lot is people don't even know what tempo is, for example, and they're like, oh, I just usually lift weights and just do 10 reps and then that's it. I just rest until I'm not tired and then I go again. But now you have rest to count. Now you have proper form to follow, a tempo to follow. Was that very different to just the previous stuff that you did before?
Erin (00:15:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you don't think that all of that goes into it. Obviously this many sets of this, okay, you can figure that out, but there's a lot more that goes into it than that. So that's an educational piece that I didn't really think about beforehand, and that was nice. And I like that you switch things up where it's like you're doing a tonne of reps this week or the way that you're doing things. It's always different. So I have to constantly calibrate, okay, well, what am I going to start with and what am I going to do? What do I think I can handle? And then I like that part of it too. It's not, oh, I'm just going to go lift this many pounds this many times, and there's more to it than that. So I think that's probably good.
Brock Ashby (00:15:54):
It can be quite monotonous. Lifting weights only so many exercises under the sun. And even after 14 years of training, I'm like, there's not really an exercise I haven't done. So then you have to get kind of creative with tempo, with sets, with structures. Do you drop the weights? Do you do them descending? I guess that's how you get more advanced. I think a big thing that you saw a difference is was with your nutrition. I kind of want to talk about that a little bit. What did you do previously and what was, I guess, the biggest difference of you seeing significant results? We haven't even touched on the amount of progress that you've made, which has been huge, but maybe you can touch on that as well, but what was the big change? Because this is the thing that stuffs people up is people's nutrition. A lot of people just train like dogs. They can work, they can go into the gym, they can sweat, they can squat, they can run, they can jump, they can do whatever, and then they'll just get home and kind of undo it all just with the way they eat because it's just, I don't know. There's this mindset that you can just outwork any sort of diet that you follow, but where was your big change?
Erin (00:17:12):
Yeah, I think that's been the biggest piece because I've always, like I said, consistently worked out almost every day, probably too much, seven days, not taking rest days, things like that. But the nutritional piece, again, I've always thought, oh, I eat pretty healthy. I don't eat and I haven't for decades. Any red meat I eat, just lean chicken, Turkey fish, that's it. I like sweets and things like that, but I don't ever go overboard. I was never a snacker. I don't sit around and snack. I have drinks with friends. Not all the time. There wasn't anything in my diet that was horrible, but I wasn't paying attention to how the exact calories of things. I had never counted calories before this. I always thought, I do not have time for that. There are too many things going on. It takes too long. And I had tried a couple times, maybe gave it two, three days and thought, oh my God, I'm not doing this. This is horrible. I don't have time for this. It's horrible. I think the first time I had tried it was with MyFitness Pal, but I don't know that there was a barcode scanning option at the time. It was a
Brock Ashby (00:18:25):
While. I think that's a new feature.
Erin (00:18:28):
I kind of thought, oh my God, I can't, I'll just eat healthy. Well, I was eating healthy, but I was eating too many calories of the healthy foods. So starting to pay attention to it, it's been eyeopening. I can kind of now size things up and try to figure it out a little bit better. And I noticed just with that in the consistent training, the weight just started to come off. And I've never seen progress of myself where I've never lost weight except one time I did the shake route because I was desperate and I thought, I really need to do something. And I'd seen somebody who had lost weight doing that. I jumped on the bandwagon and it worked until I stopped drinking two shakes a day as my meals, which was very boring and not enjoyable at all. And I came back, and then I got pregnant the two times and had kids and weight came back on, and it was never a huge weight gain, but just the way my body was composed had changed significantly. So it's been really exciting for me to see a change where I can get back into jeans that I wore before I was pregnant with my first daughter are getting to be too big. And that is kind of crazy to me. I'm,
Brock Ashby (00:19:55):
My God,
Erin (00:19:56):
I remember I messaged you and said, I'm finally into a stack of pants. I'd put into the other room thinking, someday I'll get back into those someday I will. And I thought it was kind of like a pipe dream, but I got into 'em and now I'm finding them a little loose and I'm thinking, this is just kind of crazy.
Brock Ashby (00:20:17):
Yeah, so good. Yeah, I think that's the thing a lot of people do is just sit in that kind of like, I'm going to eat healthy. I've worked with a lot of people and a lot of I eat healthy, but I'm just, it just doesn't work or I eat healthy, but this, and there's multiple things with that. Number one would have to be healthy is kind of different for everyone. It's very broad, what I would call healthy could be very different to what someone that's never done fitness calls healthy. They might think, for example, early back in the day, I used to think granola was healthy. And then you kind of look at it, some granolas are okay, but some are just full of sugar, full of honey, full of oils and stuff like that. And the calories are huge. You kind of think you're doing a good thing by having a bowl of granola and it's like, man, you could have just had a ham and cheese croissant and just gone on with your day and it would've been less calories type of thing.
(00:21:18):
Healthy is very different. It's very broad and it's quite hard to kind of just say, oh, I eat healthy. But when you actually go in and analyse the calories, I think you can start thinking health aside. Obviously health is always a focus that I want people to focus on, but you have to just get into the nitty gritty of just tracking. And I know it's offputting because it can be annoying, especially weighing food is really annoying, and I can understand as a busy mom and working and stuff, you don't really think you have time to carry around scales or weigh food, and you have to make food for more people than just yourself. It's easy for me. I have a wife, but I'm just like, I don't have any kids. I'm just cooking for us too, or I don't cook. So she cooks for us too, and it's very different. How did you find that process of tracking initially? I know you said it wasn't super exciting or exciting at the start, but what kind of got you to stick with it? Because this is a hard sell for me as a personal trainer to say, all right, let's start tracking your food. A lot of pushback. It sounds boring, it sounds too intense. What made you get through it and stick with it?
Erin (00:22:31):
Well, in the MyFitnessPal, I mean, it saves the foods you eat the most. If you, you've looked something up and you've entered it, that's there. So that ends up, the more you use it, the easier it is to just put in all of the things that, because I usually, I don't always eat the same things, but around the same things. And sometimes as a shortcut, I don't put the exact thing in, but I know it's similar and calories are the same because I've looked it up and I can't find this brand or that brand or whatever. But I know that because I've already, if it's a protein shake in the morning, which I always have, and try to keep it as simple as possible, those prepackaged protein shakes. Well, this brand is 160 calories. This is 130 calories. I don't have time. I'll just click this one.
(00:23:25):
That's more, oh, well, I mean, I have a general idea, so I don't, for sustainability, I don't kill myself worrying about the details. I was weighing my food at first pieces of meat and things like that. But now that I kind of know about this size is this amount of, especially with just the chicken about this size is going to be four ounces. That's what I usually put on my salad or whatever, and I don't feel like I have to wait anymore because the way I've been doing it, I'm still losing. I feel like I build enough of a buffer in there that I don't shoot low. I'll shoot high if that way. I might overdo it a little bit, but then there's a buffer in there. So it hasn't been bad, but it took a while to get used to it. If you're busy, you don't want to sit down and say, oh, now I have to all this stuff.
Brock Ashby (00:24:26):
Yeah. I used to do a similar thing. So when I did the ice cream challenge, I'm not sure if you followed me at the time, but I did an ice cream challenge where I ate ice cream every day for 30 days, and then not just ice cream, I added ice cream on top of whatever I was eating. I wasn't just like, yeah, let's eat ice cream all day every day. I think I would've died doing that, but because I was eating ice cream every day, just to kind of prove the point, not that ice cream is the fat loss food that you're not eating more. So the fact that you can have a flexible diet, enjoy foods that you like. And I did, I guess more of an extreme version. I don't eat ice cream every day, but I wanted to prove to people that you could and still lose weight.
(00:25:13):
So I lost over five kilos, which is maybe 10 or 11 or 12 pounds over 30 days, and I created a calorie deficit. I ate ice cream every day. But the thing with the ice cream, and it was gelato, which is my favourite type of ice cream, is it's different with all the different flavours and stuff like that. So I would just do something similar to you. I would just search up gelato and just add it in, because it's very different with the sort of foods that you're going to have. And I think that is the most sustainable way to go, because sometimes you just can't have the foods that you search up something and it's not there, but something is better than nothing in terms of an approach. I get that a lot. If you're eating, you're out and you're eating carbonara pasta. And how do you track that?
(00:26:01):
Do you put in, I think that's 300 grammes of fettuccini pasta or whatever it is, and I think it's 50 grammes of bacon and mushrooms and whatever. I just search up carbonara and I'll just add that in. And it's probably not that accurate, but I think it's more so the accountability that you feel like you are actually sticking, you are tracking, and you're staying accountable, and you're actually able to change. Because that's what I, I've found that when you stop tracking, it's less, you feel less accountable. You feel like you're, I guess, backsliding a little bit. I don't know the terminology, but just putting things in makes you feel like you are sticking to it a bit better. Did you find that or not
Erin (00:26:50):
That just No, I did. And I feel like even if there was a day or you're going out with friends or a birthday party or something and you don't put in because you know that you went over whatever, it's hard to figure out what you had, whatever. Before I would go out that day, I would just make sure that I would not, I knew that that would happen. I would know, oh, they're going to go here. And I would either put 'em in and just guess, or if I didn't enter it, I didn't enter it. I know that I went over tomorrow, I'm going to shore it up and do better and enter everything tomorrow, and then I'm just right back in it. I don't know. That's kind of the way that I do it, and I know that might not be the best way, but
Brock Ashby (00:27:43):
Yeah, I think it's different for everyone. If we were competitive bodybuilders about to step on stage, it'd be very different. We probably wouldn't be socialising as much or being a bit loosey goosey with everything that we're tracking. We'd be a bit more onto it. How do you balance family life with your training and nutrition? You said you have a couple of kids you work and stuff. And once again, I've always had the freedom of working in fitness. So for me, if you're not training and you're working in fitness, there's no real excuse. Especially when I was in the gym, it was like, oh, I've got an hour. I should just go lift weights. It's very different in your situation. So how do you prioritise it? How do you balance it?
Erin (00:28:28):
It is, and it's kind of hard. It's hard in the way that I like your programme, because for me, I've been able to make it work with my lifestyle. So if I felt like me working out was cutting into time with my kids, I would probably drop off working out because being a full-time working mom, I have from six in the morning when I wake up until seven 30 with them, that's it. And I'm getting ready during that time too, showering and getting dressed, and they're needing to get dressed, and it's a mad dash out of the door. And then from 6:00 PM until seven 30 at night with them, Monday through Friday, that's it. So if I had to take a chunk of that to drive to a gym, which we're lucky, we've been able to cruise for deals on Facebook marketplace and all those things, and slowly build an acceptable gym in our basement with just adjustable dumbbells, barbells, squat rack, things like that we've gotten from people.
Brock Ashby (00:29:37):
That's awesome.
Erin (00:29:38):
I'm not cutting into that time with a commute back and forth or anything like that. And I drive home from work. I get home around five, and then usually by five 10 ish, I'm in the basement in the gym, and I finish up before they walk in the door, and then I missed no time with them. I would've been doing nothing but maybe sitting on my phone and relaxing dishes, things like that. That should probably get done too. But those can get done later when the kids are in bed. If I waited to work out until then, I would be exhausted. I know my heart wouldn't be in it. It would just be one of those things like the grind of work, kids working out and then just going to sleep. I wouldn't have any time to relax, so I'm able to shove that right in there before they get home. And then, which is why I asked if we could do this at this time. This is a time there's a potential, they'll come running.
Brock Ashby (00:30:38):
So I've cut and deal workouts, I've cut and deal workout. Sorry.
Erin (00:30:42):
Yeah. But it's just nice. It doesn't cut into anything. And that's what I've made it sustainable for me. If I had to get up early in workout, I'm not a good morning workout person. I feel like I'm weak. I feel like
Brock Ashby (00:30:57):
I Me too. No, it's not happening.
Erin (00:31:00):
If I have to do it, if I have a meeting after work and I know I can't get that workout in that day or we're travelling or something, I'll do that. I'll make that adjustment to make sure I do the workout, but it's not as good as it could be. So I've found if I drink a little caffeine before I leave work, and then by the time I get home, I'm able to get the workout in efficiently and then it is what it is. So it's worked out well in that way. And they still get to see me coming up kind of sweaty and after working out, and sometimes they'll come down at the tail end and kind of join in. And my four-year-old has these one pound weights that she gets on the bench and just does all this, and it's really cute, and I think it's good. She'll run around and say, I'll ask her, how'd you get so fast? And she'll say, I exercise a lot. And I think that's is just such a cute motivational thing for me to keep going,
Brock Ashby (00:32:00):
Especially if that stuff's rubbing off onto your kids. Yeah. That's really awesome. So what do you sets you up for a good workout? Do you, you said you have caffeine in your car kind of on the way back. I do the same thing when I drive to the gym, I make a coffee and I put it in a ke cuff and I'm sipping on it while I'm there so that when I get there, I'm fully charging. Yeah. What's a good workout set up for you?
Erin (00:32:27):
Yeah, I would say definitely a little caffeine, not a lot, because I want to be able to go to sleep when I need to go to sleep too.
Brock Ashby (00:32:35):
So caffeine impacts you if you have it later in the day for your
Erin (00:32:38):
Sleep? A lot. If I have a lot. Yeah. It didn't used to because worked all different shift work when I was working as a nurse, but now I'm a little more sensitive to it. At nighttime, it's probably just getting older or whatever, but I'll have maybe a Diet Mountain Dew or something that's just a medium amount of caffeine.
Brock Ashby (00:32:57):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Like
Erin (00:32:59):
A cup of coffee, one thing, not like a monster or anything like that, that would keep me up too long. No. Or anything like that. If I did that, I would've to be in the morning. But doing that and then making sure I eat a good lunch, a healthy lunch, and some snacks so that I'm not super hungry when I get home and loud music, my headphones. I think that is super important. It's me motivating.
Brock Ashby (00:33:33):
And what sort of music?
Erin (00:33:34):
It's me time. I don't really have, I mean, all day long from the moment I wake up until that moment, I'm not thinking about myself. So it's nice to just kind of be by myself in my little gym with my music, whatever I pick and
Brock Ashby (00:33:51):
Yeah. Yeah. So what sort of music do you listen to when you're training?
Erin (00:33:54):
You're going to be probably surprised. What would you think?
Brock Ashby (00:33:58):
Oh, man, I don't know. Well, I was going to say, judging by the videos you sent me on Instagram, it could be very country, very American country. Oh, no.
Erin (00:34:14):
Those pictures were not a reflection of me
Brock Ashby (00:34:16):
At all.
Erin (00:34:18):
I was forced into that situation.
Brock Ashby (00:34:21):
No, I don't know. Surprising. I'm going to say old school rap.
Erin (00:34:30):
Yeah, old school in the sense where the kids today would be like, I don't know what that is, but not super, super old school, like early two thousands type.
Brock Ashby (00:34:43):
So rattle some artists,
Erin (00:34:46):
Southern rap kind of stuff.
Brock Ashby (00:34:48):
Who's that? Like Nelly is Nelly. No.
Erin (00:34:52):
Yeah, kind of. There's a lot. But amongst my friends, I have that reputation of being the one that really likes the hardcore rap music, and it's never expected by anyone, so it's just motivational for me more than anything. Like the beats and all that. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:35:14):
Actually, I've been getting a lot into, so my friend Dave, who's a pt, he loves 50 cent more older school, 50 cent. And so I've been getting on, so I've made a playlist called Old School Rap, so I'm actually listening to, well, what I call old school rap. I don't really know what old school rap is, right? It's probably not even what I'm saying, but it's like Tupac and Wu-Tang and Notorious BIG. I've been listening to that, and I find it motivating too, I think not necessarily from the point of the lyrics, more so a lot of Tupac, I find it motivational in terms of the spirit and the passion and stuff that they kind
Erin (00:35:52):
Of, that's exactly where I'm at, I think. Yeah, I think people would, they listen to the lyrics and think, oh my God, you listen to that. I support talking
Brock Ashby (00:36:02):
About killing people.
Erin (00:36:03):
Yeah, I support what they're saying. That's absolutely not the case. It's just exactly what you're saying. It gets you hyped up. It's the message and Yeah. Yep.
Brock Ashby (00:36:14):
Yeah, it's like the, I don't know what it's too, it's like the vibe or the energy that they're like, and then you take that into your workout. I was listening to Audible and books and stuff sometimes, and sometimes I'm like, man, I'm trying to, I don't know. I'm trying to train. But then I'm also, say I'm listening to some finance audible. I've been trying to listen to property books and stuff, and I'm trying to think of tax rates and stuff while I'm training. I'm like, no, no, no, I need some Tupac right now because I'm struggling over here.
Erin (00:36:46):
I would do that. I would listen to Audible when I was going on long runs, because the music, you can only listen to so many songs in a row, or I would have my running playlist and I would need a break from that just to fill the time. It would be so long that you'd be out running and then towards the end I'm like, okay, I need music back on. I need to be re-motivated. You kind of needed to space out for a little bit. But yeah, when I'm working out, it has to be really aggressive, loud music to get me through.
Brock Ashby (00:37:21):
Yeah. And now I've changed my audible to drives. If I'm driving somewhere or walking somewhere, then yeah, I'll put on stuff to learn because you feel like when you're walking, you can also take in things. But yeah, training's definitely changed the old school rap. Now, one more question on nutrition. I know we kind of got sidetracked. What do you find has been, I guess, some of the keys that have worked for you? I know flexible dieting has been awesome for you and actually allowing yourself to have certain things that maybe you wouldn't have. I remember on one of the calls you mentioned one of the soccer moms dropped donuts off and you were like had them. What has been some of the keys to you actually successfully get in progress? And you haven't mentioned it, but I wrote it down 16.8 pounds you said is kind of what you're down now?
Erin (00:38:13):
No, that's what I was just before at the eight weeks.
Brock Ashby (00:38:19):
Oh, okay.
Erin (00:38:19):
I'm down 32 pounds.
Brock Ashby (00:38:21):
Oh, double it. Yeah, 32 pounds. That's huge.
Erin (00:38:25):
Yeah, I know. I know.
Brock Ashby (00:38:28):
Okay, then well, that's different story. Yeah, that's massive. Great job. Yeah, because you sent through the photos. I have the photos that when you submitted for the challenge, which is awesome in itself, but you've continued to progress, which is amazing.
Erin (00:38:45):
So for the nutrition piece, every morning I have a protein shake, so that keeps it simple for me. And I usually will stay full. I'll drink that and I'll drink a cup of coffee,
Brock Ashby (00:38:58):
A couple of, is it just a protein shake? It's not like a smoothie or anything, it's just
Erin (00:39:02):
Protein and
Brock Ashby (00:39:04):
Protein and milk. Okay. Yeah,
Erin (00:39:06):
They're like milk-based protein shakes, but they're either one 20 to one 30 calories, and that'll keep me full until lunchtime. So I've found that that has been really a lifesaver for me because I'd eat cereal and with milk or just whatever. And I actually found these breakfast sandwiches too, which I had my first one today, and I was really happy about it. It was 150 calories sandwich. Yeah, it's an egg sandwich and a Peter wrap with Turkey sausage and cheese, and it was 150 calories. Sounds good. Yeah, sounds
Brock Ashby (00:39:45):
Better than a protein shake. That's the show.
Erin (00:39:47):
I know they're probably more expensive, but I stick to something simple. So I set myself up to have more at lunch, and I make it easy because if it gets complicated, then things fall off. I always try to set myself up for success in that way. So for lunch, I'll usually have a salad with the pre-cut a big tub of greens, grab as much as I can of the greens and put 'em in there. And then for my protein, it's either pre-cooked chicken that I've made ahead of time, or my husband has rather, he does all of the cooking like that. Or I've found these unbred grilled chicken strips in the freezer aisle that they have buffalo chicken ones and blackened ones, and those I can just throw in the air fryer. So if I'm making a lunch in the morning, I can put 'em in for seven minutes or so while I'm getting the kids ready and throw it on top of my salad with a low calorie dressing, some carrots. So I'm still getting a big amount, like some easy snacks. Yeah. Yeah. Easy snacks. I eat these Turkey pepperoni sticks and a cheese stick and yoghourt and things like that that are easy so that I'm not sitting there starving thinking, Ooh, what can I get out of the vending machine? Or what can I order? We have these little robots that'll deliver us food to our work.
Brock Ashby (00:41:18):
No way.
Erin (00:41:19):
Whatever you want. Robot, you order robot on your phone. Robot, huh? Yeah, a robot. They're like these little white robots and you order it on your phone and they drive to work. This is horrible for me when I was pregnant, because they would come every day and they can bring you donuts and coffee and Mediterranean food and pizza, whatever you could imagine.
Brock Ashby (00:41:41):
So it's kind of like Uber Eats, but it's just, there's no human, but there's
Erin (00:41:45):
No person.
Brock Ashby (00:41:46):
So they self-Drive.
Erin (00:41:48):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:41:49):
From the places.
Erin (00:41:50):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:41:51):
Right. Well, and
Erin (00:41:52):
They stage, and I'll send you a video sometime because it's really weird.
Brock Ashby (00:41:57):
I think that's dangerous. It talks to you.
Erin (00:42:00):
Yeah. Yeah. It'll say, hello, thanks. And you've got to send it away on your phone. Yeah, it's really, but it's easy for me to access bad food is what I'm getting at. So it's nice for me to try to set myself up. For example, I had to work the county fair all week, and I was there from, I would run the safety meeting in the morning until four 30 in the afternoon I was there. So I remember on fair food, all of the horrible foods that you could imagine, just high calorie everything the whole week. And the safety meeting starts off in the morning with donuts, so everybody goes and gets donuts. But I would
Brock Ashby (00:42:42):
Tell myself in the morning, too, you're starting off your day with donuts. That's it.
Erin (00:42:44):
I know. I know. It's a hot stuff. So I would tell myself, if I'm going to have a donut, I'm going to have one donut this week. Okay, whatever. I'll pick a good one, it'll be fine. But then that day for lunch, I would go, because I couldn't really pack a lunch. It was very hot out there, and there was nowhere to keep my lunch. And so if I ate that, then I would get a salad or I would bring healthy snacks with me so that I could eat healthy snacks and then not be worried about. Then I would go get a Turkey burger or something that wasn't as good, but I would have the healthy snacks to counterbalance it instead of going around and getting a milkshake, fries, a hot dog, elephant ear, whatever. Just little tricks like that in the balance. I love fair food. Who does it? So if I'm going to have a milkshake today, then I'm not going to have a donut in the morning or I'm not going to, I would just kind of pick and choose what I was having.
Brock Ashby (00:43:45):
Yeah, preparation's a big one. And I think that's what a lot of people aren't willing to do. And now with, well, we only have Uber Eats over here. We don't have robots delivering food, but I can imagine with that, it's only going to get worse in terms of the, I guess, nutritional environment we can create. It's so easy to get food that being prepared. Even I was talking to my wife last couple days, she'll take in salads and she'll cook eggs and put them in Tupperware containers and take them. You have to kind of be proactive if you do want to have a kind of healthy baseline, because if you rely on, I guess what the world will give access to you, it's not very, look at the majority of people, even in Australia or in the States now, I feel like the majority of people are overweight as opposed to in any other way, just because it's so easy to get access to that food.
Erin (00:44:47):
At my job, we travel a lot to different areas, and last week we went to a meeting outside of the county and there was pizza provided for lunch, just pizza. But I proactively packed a lunchbox and I had some snacks and stuff in there that way I wasn't starving that way. I didn't feel like I had to eat three pieces of pizza. I could eat my snacks and then eat one piece of pizza. I'm not going to exclude myself. I'm not going to be, I don't, yeah, sorry. That doesn't fit my, no, I like pizza. It's good. But I wanted to be able to set myself up that I wasn't super hungry and making really bad choices.
Brock Ashby (00:45:30):
And I think when you get to like, oh, I don't eat pizza, I don't eat, this can start. It kind of affects people socially, but then also you lose that enjoyment in life. It's not
Erin (00:45:42):
Fun. I
Brock Ashby (00:45:43):
All, yeah. You still want to have an aspect of, okay, I'm going to have some pizza today. I'm going to have some. I went up to Queensland for my niece's birthday, first birthday the other week, probably about a month ago now. And yeah, I was eating donuts. There was burgers and chips for that they put on. I was like smashing it all, and it was like that whole weekend I guess was way more food than I would usually eat. So I compensated instead of just doing a day, I had to compensate for a week. It was kind of like an extended amount of donuts because then you're back with the family and they have it at home and stuff. So yeah, it's about balance and I think people's idea of balances is also different as well. Just like health, when people say, oh, I'm healthy, or I eat healthy. It's very broad. I have three questions, three questions, three questions that I wanted to wrap it up with. I called the podcast Bed with Rock, not just so we can talk about fitness, but more so about getting better holistically in all aspects. So three questions. First one, what is one thing you do every day to be better?
Erin (00:46:55):
I would say probably my workout. I mean, not even necessarily just, I started doing this after I gave birth to my second daughter and I was clear to work out. It was like, you know what? I'm doing all these things for everybody else every day. My husband is very supportive of this. He's like, every day, if you want to work out, I'll make it happen. I know we have stuff to do. I know the list always is growing, but you take the time for you, whatever you need. So I would say, okay, all I need is a half an hour. All I need is 45 minutes or an hour or whatever. But because I get that time to myself, no dogs touching me, no kids touching me, no one yelling, mama, mama mop, which you might hear soon because they're probably pulling in the driveway. It makes me better because it gives me peace of mind. It makes me stronger physically, mentally, and then I'm better with them. I'm not riled up or stressed out or feeling slow or sad. I'm energised. So I would say that is the thing. And if it's a rest day or something like that, that day, just having that time to myself going on a walk or doing something like that would make me better and be able to perform better for everybody.
Brock Ashby (00:48:13):
Yeah, I've had a lot of friends have kids and first kids, and they're just adapting. I've seen some prioritise that time to train and they'll wake up, the dad will go train, come back, and then the wife will go train and come back. It's like a schedule type of thing. And then I've seen other people that just haven't trained for months and they've just let it
Erin (00:48:38):
Slip. It's easy to do that.
Brock Ashby (00:48:41):
And I'm not a father, so I can't say, oh, this is right and this is wrong. And I'm sure there's no right or wrong in parenting and everything's different, but everyone kind of responds differently. But I think taking that time to have your time is pretty important, especially as kids time. It gets very precious, very quick.
Erin (00:49:02):
Yeah, it does it, it makes you very efficient.
Brock Ashby (00:49:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Our second question, what is one book that you've read that's made you better? I know you put one in the Facebook group around, I can't remember what it was, but you put it in the Facebook group around what you did for work. I haven't read it to be honest. I have a big wishlist that just keeps growing and growing and growing and I can't seem to read fast enough. But yeah, what's one book?
Erin (00:49:36):
Like I said, my time is very precious. I used to love reading, and now my audible list is, it is what it is. But the books that I read usually I feel like to justify me spending the time to read them, they need to serve a purpose. So whether that's making me better or whether that's helping for work with different perspectives on things. So the book I had shared with you fits into that kind of both ways. I like listening to leadership books and things like that, but it was the Unthinkable by Amanda Ripley, and it's really interesting because it just goes into the science of why, which I like that piece, the science behind everything, the science of why and how people react during disasters in times of crisis and stress. So it doesn't have to be isolated to a disaster, but how and why people react a certain way. I feel like it's really helpful for you to understand in your own mind how you can adapt when presented with any challenges. So training, anything,
Brock Ashby (00:50:46):
Has it impacted you with the knowledge that you've taken from the book and how you live day to day, or how you react under stress?
Erin (00:50:53):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that it provided a lot of insight just historically about different disasters, which I really like, and that is what's what I do for work is disaster preparedness work. So it's nice to understand that, and it helps me understand why I react to things the way I react and help me understand my own psyche and the reason that people have certain muscle memory and freeze the fight or flight type thing. Yeah, I think it's a great book. I always recommend it to everybody. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:51:30):
A side question on that, do you think stress can be beneficial for people because there's, oh, my life is stressful or there's too much stress in my life. I kind of have this theory where I think the most stressful times in my life have been the times that have been the most transforming, not necessarily the happiest, because stress and happiness don't really go together, but it's more so in hindsight, and I feel like in our lives, depending on what stress it is, obviously it is like, oh, I don't have much time and kids and stuff. That's a kind of daily stress. But I mean kind of stressful times that are challenging. I think my perspective is to kind of push towards that because I believe that's where I've kind of transformed and grown out of that. And maybe it's in the book or something, but do you feel like that should be something we push towards or something that Yeah, maybe a stress-free life is good, what people are pursuing. I don't want stress, but I think we should pursue some kind of stress, not necessarily just be stressed all the time. Oh, I've got deadlines to meet and kids and work and just always be a headless chicken, but I feel like this should be some sort of aspect of stress that we push towards. What do you think about that? Yeah,
Erin (00:52:55):
No, I agree with you. I know that that's kind of like a controversial topic because everyone wants to be stress-free, protect your peace. If you don't like something, you don't need to deal with it, avoid it, and that's fine. Everybody's different in their amount of resilience too. So some people having a little bit of stress is it's too much for them to handle, but I know that I perform best if there's a little bit of stress, if there's a little bit of, it helps you laser focus in on what you need to do, it gives you a little bit of motivation. I always feel like I do much better when there's a little bit of stress. If there isn't, you go in, it doesn't matter. I can dress however I want and do whatever I want and say what? No, I feel like you should be a little stressed, but it's on a scale. Whatever's healthy for you. If you're finding that your stress is causing you to be physically, mentally, I mean in a bad way, then that's something that needs to be modified. But otherwise, I think a little bit is a good motivator and driver. That's how we get better. You don't get better by sitting around and doing nothing. You got to learn more, seek more, do more.
Brock Ashby (00:54:19):
Yeah. I had a quote yesterday. If it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. It's quite simple, but it's very true. And
Erin (00:54:27):
Some of the things that have been the most stressful for me that in the moment I thought, oh, this is horrible. This is the worst thing ever. Oh, I can't believe this. And really made me mad, made me better and changed me for the better. It just took a little bit of reflection to realise that that's what it was.
Brock Ashby (00:54:45):
Yeah, I can put it down to, so there's points in my life, and this is probably, it could just be poor financial management, but there's two really key points that I was literally very broke, nothing to stand on. And from those two points was kind of where I pushed into the trajectory where I am now. So the first example was when I first started, I used to sing and I wanted to be a Calvin Klein model, and I had all these dreams and I was a TV presenter in New Zealand at the time, and I was doing all the stuff, and I quit normal jobs and I just did that stuff and then it kind of ended and then the band broke up. I had to go into the label and say, Hey, we wanted this band. And it was just me, so it wasn't me and the band, it was just me.
(00:55:32):
So it felt like more intense than it did. And I kind of went back and I was like, I don't have much money. When you're doing music and you don't make it, especially in New Zealand where some people don't even know it's a country, it's so small and you're like back yourself in a artistic way, which is quite challenging financially if you don't really make it. I was broke and I had this big breakdown at home. I was 20 years old. I called it like a midlife crisis. I was like, what do I do now? So I spent a couple of days and I was bling my eyes out type of stress, no money, no real sure way of where I was heading. And then that was when on the back of that, I decided, okay, I'm going to do personal training. I've played sport my whole life.
(00:56:14):
I've trained my whole life. I'm passionate about it, blah, blah. So I called heaps of gyms and just kind of started. So on the back of that kind of stressful time, it forced me to make a decision to where I wanted to go, and I did all the personality tests in the world. What's the best career for this personality type, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was really focused. I did that. And then even more recently in 2020 when I left the gym face-to-face, personal training, I went online. I tried to build this website and I got done over by these web developers, and I lost tens of thousands of dollars, which was lots of money that I worked hard with saving up as a personal trainer. And Kiki. I just went on this holiday with my dad and with my best friend, and we hung out and had this amazing time, and it was quite an expensive holiday.
(00:57:04):
And then on the back of that, it was like I left the gym. I thought I'd have this website that would be great to do my personal training online. Didn't happen. Got back. I had like $2,000 left, which was only about a month. Rented Sydney. Kiki had just moved in, my wife or my girlfriend at the time. So I was like, $2,000. Sounds like you have quite a nice little pocket, but in Sydney that is not a nice little pocket. That's the equivalent of 20 bucks. These days, I feel like it just disappears. So once again, I was at a point where I was like, I feel challenged as a man because I'm like, man, I can't even provide for my girlfriend. She's moved in and I was like, bored my eyes out again. I was like, what am I doing? Blah, blah, blah. But then that kind of forced me to double down.
(00:57:49):
I was like, okay, I'll just make it work. So I'll start posting more. I'll do my own website thing, dude. And these two stressful times, and these haven't been the only stressful times, but I can just think of it off the top of my head, were the best parts of what have made me push to where I want to be. So I think often people that feel unfulfilled, I think they don't have enough stress or their levels that they can handle are very low. Just so used to trying to have a stress-free life, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Our last question, one quote you love that has made you better. I love books and quotes and morning routines and all that kind of stuff, if you haven't guessed. Yeah. One quote you think that's made you better.
Erin (00:58:37):
I would say fail. To prepare to fail. That is kind of my life mantra. I mean, it carries into my work and my everyday life with the kids. Just setting yourself up for success by pre-positioning things to make your life a little easier. Because if it's not simple, if it's not, then it won't be sustainable if it's not for me, I just know myself. If things are too chaotic, I have to triage what I need to do, and certain things will drop off the list. So if I prepare myself things adequately or as much as I can, then I'll set myself up for success. So that's Benjamin Franklin, that quote. I'm sure you've heard that a million times, but
Brock Ashby (00:59:32):
Yeah, I don't know if it was Benjamin Franklin. I've heard that quote before. So what's ways that you prepare, say, on a daily basis or practical ways that you prepare to fail or fail to prepare? How do you apply that?
Erin (00:59:46):
Like I said, with the food stuff, making sure that I have all the easy things for me to grab so I can make the lunch. That way I'm not stuck scrounging for something that's going to be more high calories, making sure that I can get a workout in a certain amount of time. So if I have something that comes up a meeting or something that I need to do, I make sure that I say, okay, mentally, this is my plan. I'm going to have to either double up these days. I'm going to have to get up early and do this. I'm not just going to leave it to the cosmos or whatever and just say, oh,
Brock Ashby (01:00:27):
To the robots,
Erin (01:00:29):
Yeah, I'll do it whenever. No, this is what I needed to do, so how do I make it happen? I try to make sure that I'm setting myself up like that with the kids. If there's anything that they need to do for school or I set it out the night before, it's just easier to do things like that because if you're running around a chicken with your head cut off, things are going to fall off the priorities, especially things that are important to you, but it's not. You can only do it however much you can do. So,
Brock Ashby (01:01:02):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like taking ownership as well. You have to, I read a book called Extreme Ownership by Dropper Willink, which is a great, that's
Erin (01:01:12):
Not one of my other favourite books.
Brock Ashby (01:01:14):
Oh, is it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that book. I'm not super into, I guess military and I don't have much knowledge on that, but I really resonated with the message of that book, and I think that's
Erin (01:01:27):
What I probably would've said book number two would be. So
Brock Ashby (01:01:30):
Let's extreme ownership. Yeah. Yeah. It's a strong one of mine too. I'm a big fan. I just think the message of it, not enough people take ownership. There's too much entitlement, and they think that things should be brought to their lap, where I'm a big believer in you should work for the position that you want, as opposed to just ending up there. Erin, thanks a lot. I appreciate your time. Thank you. The kids are probably coming home. Congrats. Oh yeah,
Erin (01:01:56):
They're downstairs. I'm surprised they haven't made a guest appearance with you.
Brock Ashby (01:02:00):
Yeah, and congrats. Sorry, I got the 16 pounds wrong. I was just off the eight weeks, but 32 pounds. Congrats. It's an awesome part of my job to be a part of it. Not that I take credit for any of it, but it's awesome to be involved in the situation and guide you. It's very inspiring, especially now that my friends are having kids, and I kind of understand it properly now, how you as a full-time working mom, are pushing on and charging and achieving amazing results. Spending time for yourself, not just being, I guess, a slave to other people's wants and needs, which I'm sure you have many to fulfil. It's like making that time for yourself is super important. So congrats on that. Thanks for your time once again, and yeah, I'm sure we'll talk very soon. I again. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much, Aaron. Bye. See ya. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
To episode number 21 of the Better with Brock podcast. Today I'm going to be taking you through 10 huge mistakes you cannot be making in the gym, but a lot of people are making. So I want to give you these tips to help you get better results. If this is the first episode you're listening to, I am Brock Ashby. I'm a body transformation coach, born in New Zealand, now living in Australia, working with clients all over the world. A majority of my clients are based in the United States, Europe, Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and all over the world really. So hello, welcome. I've made a coffee. I'm just going to be sitting down and rattling off these 10 mistakes because I've worked in a gym. I began in 2015. I was a face-to-face personal trainer on the gym floor pretty much every day from 2015 August, and then I guess retired as a face-to-face personal trainer end of 2019 just before lockdown happened and the world kind of shut down.
(01:11):
And that's when I went to become an online face, sorry, not face-to-face, an online personal trainer where I started helping people all over the world, which is awesome for many reasons. It allowed me to help more people. It allowed me to have more time to educate myself, to make content, to help more people and just grow as a personal trainer. Really, if you are a personal trainer or have no oneone, you'll know that we don't have my time. You're in the gym at 6:00 AM You leave at eight to 9:00 PM and that's your life. Monday to Friday, you might do weekends, two mornings, and then outside of that you're pretty burnt out. You're pretty overwhelmed. So it was nice to step out of that, not because I didn't enjoy face-to-face training, but just because I wanted to grow outside of that and continue to learn, continue to study, go to seminars, do courses, do online courses, and being a face-to-face personal trainer, I literally did not allow for that.
(02:11):
When I transitioned online, I felt like I really ironically became a better personal trainer because I had more time to grow. And then that kind of makes you question, well, are the face-to-face personal trainers, the best people to be helping you? And there is amazing ones. I have great friends that are amazing coaches. I know that there are amazing coaches all around the world, but it is very hard to continue to upskill and grow. And I definitely did see people that were personal trainers, face-to-face in the environments that I was in, have a very close-minded attitude. And what they did works, and that's all they're going to do. But there's always research coming out. There's always new things to try and different ways to get results. So yeah, I'm going to be going through 10 in no real specific order. It was more so just the things that came into my head at the time when I was planning for this podcast.
(03:08):
So let's start with number one. The first mistake that people are making, and I actually would say that this is the most important one of highest priority is just having no goal. And this can lead to frustration and you kind of don't know why you're getting frustrated, but you're frustrated. And I see a lot of people like that. They're in the gym and they're like, oh, well, I'm not making any progress. I'm like, well, what are you going for? And they're like, well, and they have no answer and they're not sure. And I think having a goal is super, super important. And I've broken down goal setting before in a previous podcast, so I'm not going to go through the approach of setting a smart goal, and I like to spell it S-M-A-A-T as opposed to S-M-A-R-T. But having a goal is super important. And if you're just frustrated from going to the gym and having no goal and just doing random things, then that's on.
(04:11):
You have to take ownership and know that if you're going to do something, you have to have a goal. Just like if you are going into a relationship and you're frustrated with it, that's because you both don't have a goal. Or if you do, you're not communicating that enough. If you just want to have fun in a relationship and just see what happens, that's different too. I want to meet a lifelong partner, get married and have children and move into a house together. That's very, very different. Those are two very different goals, and if you don't talk about them, then that relationship is on thin ice. Same thing with Jim. If you're going to the gym or if you're working out at home and you have no goal, you're going to get frustrated because you don't actually know what you're striving for. And that's step number one is setting a goal.
(04:56):
And I'd encourage you with goal setting, don't be broad, don't be general, don't be. We'll see how it goes. Really commit yourself. I think people get too scared to really commit to a goal because they're scared of failure, but failing opens you up to look at yourself and say, oh, well, why did I fail? Okay, I didn't try hard enough. I said I was going to train four days a week and I trained two. Of course, you're going to fail if you're not committing to that. So have a look at yourself. What can you really commit to and what do you want to achieve? Okay, you want to lose weight, that's great. That's only the first level of thinking. You have to go deeper. How much weight do you want to lose? Okay, you want to lose five kilos? Great. Okay, and what timeline do you want to lose?
(05:42):
Five kilos? Well, I don't know, four months. Okay, now you have a specific goal. You want to lose five kilos in four months. That's a lot better than, oh, I think I just want to lose weight. And once you have that goal, you can start outlining how you want to proceed. So number one biggest mistake is just having no goal. There's a quote that I like from James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits. I'm a big fan of reading, and the quote is, we do not rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems. And this is a great quote that outlines the fact that you have to set something that you want to achieve and actually have it lean on something strong. If you're just throwing out goals, but you have nothing to get there, then it's just like having no goal, having a goal without a plan is just a dream.
(06:38):
I think that's another quote. We have to set something that we want to achieve, and this quote kind of rolls onto number two. The second mistake that I see people making in the gym is having no plan. So now that you've set your goal, you have to acknowledge that you need a plan to get to that goal or else it's just a dream. Like I was saying before, if you have no way of getting where you want to be, then you'll never get to where you want to be. It's quite simple. This is not mind blowing stuff, but you have to have a plan to get there. So if we go back to that Aboriginal goal of saying, all right, I want to lose five kilos in four months. Okay, well how are we going to do that? Okay, let's look at how many times we're going to train.
(07:22):
We're going to train four days a week. All right, cool. What are we going to do in those four days? Alright, let's do a full body push day, full body pull day, and then we'll repeat that and then we'll repeat that. So you'll have four days a week, full body push, full body pull, and then you'll just repeat that full body push, full body pull four weeks. You do that for four weeks. You have two sessions that you repeat. That's eight workouts in a month. Sorry, that's eight workouts in a fortnight. Yeah, so that's 16 a month. So you're doing four workouts a week, but you're kind of doubling up. Now you have a bit of a plan that you're going to hit that's a lot better. And now you have to think, okay, now what am I going to do with my food? Well follow Brock on Instagram, he's saying, I need to create a calorie deficit.
(08:14):
All right, so I need to create that. So now you go on to online calorie calculator and you start calculating your calorie deficit. So these are the steps that you have to make to start making a plan. So number one, if you have no goal, number two, if you have no plan, you are doomed. You're going to get frustrated. And I'm starting with these because this is where people make a mistake and they think, okay, I'm going to start getting fit. I've never done this. I'm going to start training. I'm new to training. And then they just start training. They have no goal, they have no plan, but they're just training. They're just trying to make a habit, but nothing sticks. And they give up and then they walk away from fitness going that, okay, this fitness lifestyle just isn't for me. I don't want that to happen to you.
(08:54):
I want you to continue. So we have to have a goal and we have to have a plan. And it's quite hard to create a plan when you don't know what you are needing to focus on. And that's why I always recommend a coach. Obviously I'm super biassed, I'm a personal trainer, I'm an online coach. I coach thousands of people. So of course I'm going to say, well, you need a coach in the best interest of my business, but that's not my goal here. If you want to work with me, that's amazing, I'll help you. I'll get some solid results for you. But if you don't want to find someone else that can get you a plan, that's going to work. If you don't have the ability to create your own plan, it's just very important. Okay? It's just like if you're saving up for a house, if you're saving up for a house and you're just like, okay, I need to save.
(09:37):
Well, what's your plan to save? Are you just going to save? What? Are you going to save $10 a week or are you going to save a thousand dollars a week? What's your capacity? What are you able to do? You have to look at fitness as the same. Number three, no structure. So having no structure is similar to having no plan, but having a structure is kind of like, how many days are you training per week? How many calories are you consuming per week? How many hours are you going to sleep per week? How many walks are you going to go per week? How many steps are you going to get per day? Or looking at that as a per week budget as well. So number one, number two, number three are all very closely correlated, but having no structure is a recipe for failure because you don't have anything to lean on.
(10:28):
If you wake up on Monday and you go, okay, I know that I'm doing my full body push day on Monday, then you wake up and you do that, you have a structure that you follow. Humans are great at sitting setting into a routine and just running that. So set your routine once again. If you can't do that for yourself, find a coach to do it for you. Find a friend that knows fitness and is actually good, not just a random friend who does workouts and you just listen to them. I think that also misleads people because they often dunno what they're talking about. Their brain is kind of filled with bro science. So find a structure. Okay, what do you do on Tuesday? Oh, Tuesday's my rest day. What do you do on Wednesday? Oh, that's my full body pool day. I also go for a 10,000 step walk.
(11:16):
So I make sure I get my 10,000 steps and I go with a friend called Kyle, and I walk with Kyle and we chat about work, and then I come back and then I do my meal prep on Wednesday for the rest of the week, Thursday, Friday, and then Saturday I'm at home so I can cook my own meals. That is a structure. We need a structure. So if humans are left to do things at our own expense, we are very easily emotionally swayed. If we're upset, we might comfort eat. If we're angry, we might want to just go stuff this routine, I'm just going to not train today. I'm putting on Ozark and I'm watching the rest of the season. So we have to have a structure, a routine for our nutrition, for our training, for our lifestyle. So we have something to abide by or else we're overrun by emotions, we're overrun by fear of missing out.
(12:12):
Our friends are going out for lunch. I want to go, our friends are going to the beach. I want to go, I should be going to do my workout. But stuff it, I'm just going to do this. If you have a routine, yes, that might mean you have to sacrifice going to lunch with your friends, maybe, maybe not. Maybe you can go later in the night, but maybe you have to sacrifice a few things. So that's what a structure has, and I think this is why there's that quote. If you need something to get done, give it to a busy person because a busy person has structure because they have things to achieve. And when you have things to achieve, you have deadlines. And with deadlines, you have to have a routine or a plan to achieve those things to a certain date. And busy people aren't doing whatever the hell they want.
(12:56):
They're often following a set structure, a routine that they have set up to achieve those things. And if there's a lunch with their friends, they'll just say, I can't go because I have these things to achieve. And you kind of have to get into that mindset when you're trying to transform your body as well. You have to have that structure so that you can abide by it to achieve your goals. You have to get selfish about your goals. And I think that's one thing that a lot of people struggle with, and I find that female clients struggle with that a bit more because they're a bit in general. In general, emotionally aware and don't want to let people down. I feel like guys are a bit more like, I need to do my thing, so I'm going to do it. When women are a bit more wanting to be, how do I say this, aware of what people are thinking and in social settings, not piss off people where guys are kind of just like, I don't care.
(13:56):
I'm going to do this. So having a structure helps you stick to your guns when you need to put yourself first because you have goals to achieve. Moving on number four, too advanced, too early, not enough. Focus on the basics. This is huge. You scroll through Instagram, you'll see some crazy shredded dude doing jump lunges into burpees, into pull-ups, and then you'll go, oh man, I'm going to do that. That's super advanced. First of all, I wouldn't even do that. It's like a combination exercise and workouts. I wouldn't do that. People overlooking the basics, right? People on social media and insight to social media, right? As a personal trainer, you look at it and it's almost laughable. These are not what people are doing for their workouts. These are what people are doing for engagement and posting for engagement and posting for workouts is completely different.
(14:50):
And we're often not seeing workout posts on social media. We're seeing engagement posts, alright? No one really puts baby oil on their abs, takes their shirt off and does a treadmill ab workout. No one does that in real life, but on social media, it seems so normal because you're surrounded by this polarising content that's like, do this for abs, this gets you abs and in two weeks you get abs. That's an engagement post. That's not a workout post. Okay? Stick to the basics, right? That's why when I composed my basics programme, my 12 week guide for beginners, it's about the basics. You're not doing sexy stuff, but that is not what good physics are built off. They are built off the basics. You're not even doing a back squat when you're joining my beginner's programme. You're not putting a barbell on your back. First of all, we're doing front foot elevated split squats to teach you that pattern to get your ankle mobility sorted.
(15:52):
For you to realise how hard a split squat is. If you can do a front foot elevated split squat with great form, you can put your butt down to your heel. So if you don't know what that is, that's like, so you're in a split squat stance or like a lunge stance, one foot in front of the other and your front legs elevated, you're holding dumbbells by your side. All you can do at body weight with your hands on your hips and you're lunging or split squatting forward and you're trying to put your butt on your heels, your knees going over your toes because that's an important component of squatting. It's not bad for your knees. That's an important aspect of squatting, getting those knees over your toes, putting your butt to your heel and then pushing back up and you're travelling more like an escalator than an elevator. You're not going up and down. You're kind of going forward and down and then backwards and up. So if you're watching on YouTube, you can kind of see my hands moving, but you're moving like this.
(16:49):
So you'll do that for the first four weeks, then you'll do that for the second four weeks, and then in the last programme you'll be doing a back squat. But the thing is, even though the back squat seems like a basic, it's a very advanced exercise. And often we don't have to back squat, we don't have to deadlift, we don't have to bench press, we don't have to overhead press. We don't have to be bound by these exercises that we think have to be done. They are very advanced exercises. You can start with dumbbells, and that's what I want you to understand is it's not about doing advanced exercises. It's not about doing a clean and joke from the floor, right? In general, I'm talking about body transformation, getting strong, building muscle, losing fat. It's about doing the basics right? And with good form, the risk you run by getting too advanced too early and lifting weights that are too heavy for you or exercises are beyond your neurological efficiency and how you can move your body.
(17:55):
The risk you run is injury and the risk you run is lifting too heavy for the range of motion that you're going through and just moving your body in ways that aren't natural to you yet because you don't have the coordination or neurological efficiency, your body doesn't know how to move in that manner and that takes time. That's why we focus on the basics. That's why when you come to me, especially when I was a face-to-face trainer, when you came to me and I gave you a programme, you weren't overwhelmed. You weren't like, wow, Brock really knows what he's doing because it was a relatively boring programme. You'll get four to six exercises and that's it. You'll do four sets, three sets of them, somewhere between eight to 12 reps, and that's what you're doing, and you're doing similar exercises over and over and over again.
(18:42):
But when you're getting into it, or even just if you're somewhere between beginner and intermediate, you have to get good at moving a certain way. And once you master these basic movement patterns, then you can move on. You have to understand what a horizontal press is, what a vertical press is, what a horizontal pull is, what a vertical pull is, what a quad dominant exercise is. What are hip dominant exercises, what a hip hinge is, what a split squat is, what a lunges, what a fly is, what a raises, what a y raises. And if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you should be looking at your programme. Are you doing these complex exercises just because you think that that is what is necessary? And I'm not saying that training should be boring because it kind of sounds like I'm doing that.
(19:35):
That's definitely not the goal. But training should be about developing a foundation because if you look at it from a long-term perspective, which is how we should be looking at training anyway, we should be looking at training until we're 60 or 70 as opposed to just training for the next few years. If we look at it from that long-term perspective, if we spend a year or two years just nailing the basics, you have plenty of years to play around with all the fun stuff, all the advanced things that we do, but you don't have to get into that straight away. And if you do, I'd argue that it would hinder your progress early on. And the biggest pitfall, which I talked about earlier, is if you go too advanced too early, you'll think, oh, this is too hard. I'm not getting results, I'm not getting progress.
(20:19):
I'm getting injured. A lot of bats always sore, my bloody elbows sore. And then you'll just be like, nah, fitness isn't for me. And that's what I don't want. So that's why we don't go too advanced too early. I'm going to take a sip of my coffee. Might be getting cold now, number five. Number five is not training hard enough. And I saw this a lot with some of my corporate clients that I trained face-to-face here in Sydney. When I was in the CBD, my training hard looked very different to what their training hard would be. And that's not trying to say, oh, my name's Brock Ashby. I'm a personal trainer and I'm such a hard trainer. I really know how to push myself. Everyone's version of training hard is different, but what we need to look at is removing emotion from what you think hard training is and look at it from a physical level.
(21:17):
Is what you're doing hard and how would we define hard training for the body? Well, I like to look at training hard as reaching a point where you get to involuntary reps. And when you look at involuntary reps, they are when your muscles can't push up the weight at the same rate they could from the first rep. So if you're doing a one second up bench press and you're going two seconds down, one second, up two seconds down, one second up. If you're doing eight reps and by the fifth rep, your one second up is looking more like a one and a half second up and then on rep 6, 7, 8, it's looking like a two second up. Those are, excuse me, are involuntary reps because your muscles are involuntarily fatigued and other muscles are having to recruit more muscle fibres to help you get the weight up.
(22:13):
So those are what involuntary reps are, and those are essential for building muscle. And we really need to get to that point where we're hitting involuntary reps to build muscle. And I can tell you for a fact, I had some clients that would never hit that involuntary rep, but they thought they were training so hard. Oh, Brock, this is so heavy, I can't believe I'm doing this. They didn't know. Say for example, I had a male client who's going to remain anonymous. He was doing a chess press exercise, and I would literally have a female client a couple hours later go beyond his weight that he was doing for the chest press. And I'm not trying to say that men should always be stronger than women. What I'm trying to say is he should be statistically and his makeup hormone wise, we're talking testosterone. He should be stronger than her.
(23:09):
He was taller than her, he was heavier than her. He was a male. He's had testosterone flowing through his body for a lot longer than she has. He should be stronger than her, but he wasn't. And it was because she knew how to work hard. She was a gun, she would train until she'd literally fail, which was great when we need to train like that. But my other male client, he would never get to that point. And this can be for many reasons. Obviously people are very different. People are aware of their body in different ways. Some people have great coordination, some people have great proprioception and some just weren't athletes as a kid. They weren't into sport, they were into academia. Maybe they were into drama, maybe they were into reading, they were into other things. So I'm not saying that everyone should be coordinated and everyone should be able to push so hard that they can build muscle really well, but we have to be training hard enough to stimulate muscle.
(24:04):
So that's just a key thing. And I think a lot of people, and especially my male client that I'm talking about, he struggled with this because of his lifestyle. He was really well off. His work was very sedentary, very meeting based. His hobbies outside of work weren't very physical, and so he wasn't used to pushing himself. So when he would try to push himself, he had a very low threshold of what he thought was hard. However, his hobbies were going for hikes, going hunting, playing touch rugby, doing juujitsu. He might have a different level of what hard training is. So number five is not training hard enough. That's a huge mistake. And ultimately you're really going to struggle with building muscle if you're not training hard enough, if you're not giving to this level, if you're not getting to this level of involuntary reps where your body is slowing down the pace of you concentrically lifting the weight, okay?
(25:11):
So that's a really good measure. That's what I would highly recommend you pursue. And if you start to reach that point, then you're in a good spot. So for example, if you're doing eight reps, if your reps become involuntary around rep 5, 6, 7, then you're in a good spot. If you have 20 reps and your reps are already slowing by rep five, you're lifting too heavy and you're not going to be able to get the 20 reps. So it has to be this kind of balance, right? If you're doing 20 reps, you want those involuntary reps occurring at about 15, 16, 17, you always want it occurring at about 75% of the set. That's going to be a great way for you to understand, okay, I'm training hard, my muscles are fatiguing. I'm recruiting a lot of type two muscle fibres to help get the weight up. I'm going to be building some solid muscle.
(26:00):
So it's no surprise that my male client wasn't very muscular. He was only training about three times per week, and he struggled to build muscle. It wasn't because the nutritional protocol that I wrote for him, it wasn't because of the workout programme that I programmed for him, it was because he just wasn't getting close enough to failure when he was lifting weights, which is a huge driver for hypertrophy your proximity of how close you get to failure. Number six, a huge mistake that you could be making in the gym, which is on the other side of the spectrum to the client that I was just talking about. This is someone that just trains every day. And I am someone who I used to train, what was it? 12 sessions per week. That was my goal when I was a personal trainer, I just moved to Sydney full of ambition, full of passion, trying to take over the world, trying to get as much clients as possible, trying to learn as much as possible.
(26:57):
I was like more, more, more, more, more. I was in this mindset where I was just trying to smash everything. My training was under the same scope. So I trained twice every day Monday to Friday, and then once every day on Saturday, Sunday. So two times. So for example, Monday I'll do a heavy day in the morning about 10:00 AM and then Monday around 2:00 PM I'll do about a 30 to 45 minute session, which wasn't heavy, but I was still training with great intensity with higher rip ranges. So I'd have a heavy session in the morning and let's just say a moderate session that was probably 15 to 20 minutes shorter in the afternoon. I did that Monday to Friday, and then Saturday, Sunday, I'll do this kind of big session. I didn't have time restrictions with clients trying to fit them in and stuff. I would train these big sessions on Saturday, these big sessions on Sunday.
(27:50):
And often I'll do it with another personal trainer mate or a friend, and we would just kind of take our time. I enjoy training, so I'm in my happy place when I'm at the gym. I'll train 12 times per week. And I'll tell you, there probably wasn't a day when I was doing that sort of training that my lower back wasn't sore. I was just completely crushed all the time. I was squatting heavy, I was dead lifting heavy. I was overhead pressing heavy, doing barbell, bent over row, heavy bench pressing heavy. Everything was heavy and I didn't take that time to recover and rest. And mentally looking back at it, then I was fried, man, I was absolutely smashed. I was trying to continually be focused, work-wise, get my scheduling right, making sure my client's payments are in check, and I'm not overcharging people and posting on Instagram, stuff like that. And I look back at it now going, what the hell were you doing, Brock? You were just everywhere you were making. I remember I started making some mistakes.
(28:55):
I would double book clients accidentally and I'd see two clients coming together and I'll go, oh, mate. And my heart would sink to the floor because I knew at that time that I'd booked two clients at the same time. And I'd have to say to someone, I am super sorry, I've just made an error. And obviously they wouldn't pay for that. I would try and make it up to them, give them a session, a free session because I'd done them over and made a mistake. And these sort of things were happening a lot when I wasn't allowing myself to have days off in the gym. And it's crazy how much of an impact that has on you, not just physically, but also mentally. I was making a lot of mistakes like that as I was training through this period of time. And I actually had to step away from training to go training once a day and then back to five days per week eventually.
(29:46):
And I was operating at a much better level. Physically I was becoming stronger. I also think that aesthetically my body improved because I was recovered. I was getting a lot stronger because I was recovered as well, and mentally I was making less mistakes and I was making better progress with all of my work staff career wise, and also content creation wise as well. So that's a big one. Training every day is just not good. We need to be recovering. And also a super serious injury happened to me while I was training that frequently as well. I did my backend, I've talked about it before on the podcast, but I literally did my backend ambulance had to come, a client of mine was a doctor and brought me some pills that helped with the pain. And it was a very hard time for about three months.
(30:43):
My training was significantly different. I couldn't lift anything with two legs. It was super painful. I couldn't even bend over and pick up a dumbbell for my clients. So for a while there I felt really bad. My clients had to carry all their dumbbells everywhere, which is what I would usually do. So there's many bad things about training every day, but ultimately the biggest thing is you don't recover. And when you don't recover and you train on sore muscles, that's when you get injured. That's when things start breaking down. So I would not recommend training every day. The maximum I would go for anyone is six days per week. However, I prefer five days per week as a maximum because I feel like it allows you to have a couple of days off. And often that fits well with training Monday to Friday, taking the weekend off.
(31:31):
Weekends are the time where we spend time with family, we see friends, so it often aligns with our lifestyle better. So I really do like the five day split. I also like having training Monday to Wednesday, take a Thursday off train, Friday, Saturday, take Sunday off, or even having rest days in the weekdays. If you enjoy training in the weekends, because often in the weekends gyms are less busy, you have more time, you can smash out bigger sessions. And if you really enjoy training like myself, you can kind of take your time a bit more and really enjoy the training session as opposed to feeling like sardine in sardine can, not being able to use squat rack, not being able to use leg press, not being able to use anything and just kind of freestyling your workout just because it's so busy. That's so frustrating.
(32:19):
So often clients of mine that don't like busy gyms, I'll say, look, let's take Monday off. Let's take Tuesday off and let's train Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Because if you look at it from a population perspective in the gym, those are of lower populations. There's less people going to the gym. Monday, Tuesday, everyone's in the gym, everyone's like, I'm going to smash my week. Diet starts Monday. Training starts Monday, I'm going to kill it. And they're in there, the Monday Warriors absolutely smashing it, hashtag Monday motivation, killing it. And then Tuesday, all right, I'm still feeling good. I'm going to the gym, bang. And then Wednesday they might go, they might not Thursday. Oh, I've been invited out for dinner. I'm not going Friday. No way, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'm never going to the gym then. And then their motivation is gone. So we can call these people the motivation warriors, and they go around Monday to Wednesday and that's about all they last.
(33:13):
And that kind of cycle goes over and over and over again. So if you want to avoid the gym rush, obviously this is only for people that have the flexibility to do so, but if you can train around Monday, Tuesday, then that is going to be a great solution. So I sidetracked a little bit, but training every day is a no go. So I currently train five days per week, and that seems to work really well for me, right? Some days I'm just super sore and I'm like, I need to take a day off. For example, yesterday I took a rest day, I was meant to go to the gym, but I didn't. I took a rest day, but today I'm going back to the gym. I'm still going hit my five workouts I for the week, but my body was super sore from training, so I took it off. And that's the flexibility you have when you have rest days. However, if you have a seven day training programme because you want to be hardcore Henry, then you're just going to go, would you benefit from just going to sleep for an hour? Probably, but your hardcore Henry program's like, let's smash it and then you get injured. And I've fallen into that trap before, which is why I'm saying training every day is a pretty big mistake that people are making.
(34:26):
Number seven, a huge mistake. People are making no enjoyment or no discipline. So I'm doing this from two sides of the coin. I say no enjoyment because if you don't enjoy it, you're obviously not going to stick to it. So if you ask a 14-year-old kid who loves Xbox and you're like, do you want to play Xbox? Do you want to play Halo? Let's play a death match. Of course they're going to say yes. Why? Because they enjoy it. If you're going to ask me, Brock, do you want to go for a workout and then eat burgers afterwards? Hell yeah, I'm going to be there. I love working out and I love burgers, right? So if you enjoy it, you're going to stick to it because it's easy to do because you enjoy it, right? That's not rocket science. But some people don't enjoy training, and I understand that.
(35:20):
So that's why I say no enjoyment or no discipline, because if you don't have discipline, you're not going to get through things that you don't enjoy. What it takes discipline to do things that you don't enjoy. Do you know what I don't like? I don't like doing emails, but I them every day because I have discipline and I know that that is how I'm going to achieve my goals by answering my emails. That's how people can reach me. That's how people in Europe can talk to me and say, Hey Brock, I want to do your built by Brock eight week challenge. How do I do it? And I'll say, well, okay, so here's my goal. I want to help as many people as I can transform their bodies. Now I need discipline to answer my emails, which I don't enjoy doing. I need discipline to answer these emails that helps me get to my goal.
(36:09):
It's the same with your body transformation. Say your goal. Let's go back to that goal we were talking about earlier. Losing five kg in four months. You need discipline to do your workouts when you don't feel like doing them. Because if you don't enjoy them, you have to discipline them. You have to just do it because that is what is going to get you to your goals. So that's super important. And obviously I'd prefer you to enjoy it first. Enjoying things is always going to be an easier alternative to get people to do it than just to discipline. Hey man, just shut up and do it. That's not very exciting for people.
(36:50):
Hey, let's play Xbox or let's do the dishes. What do you want to do? Of course, I want to play Xbox. I don't want to do dishes, right? So it's kind of like do enjoyment or do discipline, but sometimes it takes both. And even though I love working out, sometimes I don't want to work out, so I have to exercise that discipline. So it can be both as well, but you have to find some sort of enjoyment and some sort of discipline because you're going to need to call on both, even if you enjoy it. And this is kind of like why in training, I'll always love lifting weights, but I've lifted weights for 14 weights now for 14 years now, sorry. And it can get quite stale. So I've started jujitsu started last November, and I've been loving it, and it's brung, brung, I don't know the word.
(37:41):
It's brought a lot of enjoyment into my life, and now I don't struggle to go. I did at the start because I sucked and I still suck. I still heavily suck. I get smashed every session, but I'm starting to enjoy it a bit more and it's brought more enjoyment to my training because my training impacts my jiu-jitsu in a positive way. So now I enjoy training, but I also enjoy jiu-jitsu, and now I do both. It still takes discipline to go sometimes when I'm sore or when I don't feel like going or when I have other things I could be doing or want to be doing. So enjoying things are important, but also having discipline as well. And if you don't enjoy it, it's tricky. You probably won't stick to it, right? If you are doing CrossFit because you think that's the only way to build muscle and lose fat, and you're just forcing yourself to go, you're disciplining it. You can have a tonne of discipline, but also just be like, man, this isn't working. And then you just give up CrossFit. It might last three months, six months, even a year, but you're not going to last try and find something that you enjoy. It doesn't have to be lifting weights, even though I love lifting weights, I coach it.
(38:53):
I'm all about, well, my voice just cracked. I'm all about sets reps tempo, hitting it with good form drop sets, rest pause methods. One-on-one quarter reps. I can really nerd out on programming, but if you don't love it, I probably don't really want to coach you because it's not going to be a long-term solution. If you want to play golf or play tennis or do karate, then do that. And even though that may not align with your goals of looking like an action man, shred person, maybe it will, maybe it won't, but you're going to enjoy it and it's going to be sustainable for you to do. So sometimes you have to overlook that. It really just depends on you. There's no black and white thing, and not everyone, like I said, enjoys training. So sometimes it's that discipline that has to kick in as well.
(39:42):
There's a pigeon right beside me. Anyway, moving on. Number eight, majoring in the minors. The biggest mistake people make, number eight, and this is putting too much focus on things that don't really matter. Number one could be cardio. A lot of people, especially women, when the fitness industry was starting off, it was like women don't lift weights, women do cardio. So we're going to make specific gyms for women just to do cardio so they can feel safe. And I am not a fan of that because there's a lot of ladies that I trained that absolutely love weight training, and they belong just as much as the men do on the gym floor, smashing out some weights. If you want to do cardio, that's cool, but lift weights too because it's just as good for you as it is for men, right? So that's one thing that often women focus so much on because they thought cardio was for fat loss, and that's how you get this lean petite physique, which was often the goal.
(40:50):
And now I think there's a rise in women looking strong. Often women are focusing on curvy, focusing on glutes, focusing on looking strong. They lift as opposed to just doing cardio and looking skinny. I feel like there's definitely a shift towards this type of physique, this avatar physique that a lot of women are striving for, but a lot of people were focusing on cardio first and it was women, but obviously for a lot of people, that is not where they need to spend their time. If they want to transform their body and change the shape of their body in a muscular way, it's lifting weights where that would happen. And the same thing went with supplements. A lot of people, even to this day, focus so much supplements. What fat burner should I take? What pre-workout should I take? What mass gainer should I take?
(41:40):
You're majoring in the miners, you're caring about things that just don't really impact the situation so much. How much razin should I take per day? How much beta alene should I take per day? What sort of magnesium should I take? And these are all valid questions, but this is not where you should be focusing all of your energy, your energy should be focusing on. If we take it back to point number four of getting too advanced too early, there is not enough focus on the basics, and that is what you have to major in, major in the majors, not in the minors. You should be worrying about things like sleep, consistency, physical activity, lifestyle, exercise selection, things like this, things that are important, things that are going to impact you. Do you enjoy the form of exercise that you do? That's super important. No one's talking about that. You're trying to talk about a pill or a powder that you can take to accelerate your results in an unrealistic way. That is not what we should be majoring in. Okay? Too many people are majoring in minors. What's some other minors that people are focusing on? I've said cardio. I've said supplements.
(42:43):
I think that another thing that people are caring about, too much about is what people think of them. We're scrolling on social media so much now it's growing and growing and growing, especially with the introduction of TikTok that's super addictive. And we are comparing ourselves to other people that have different genetics, different time availabilities that they can spend in the gym and on their physique. We are majoring in things that don't matter. Who cares what people think about you? Just try and be the best version of you and achieve whatever you want to achieve stuff what other people look like. I posted a viral video on TikTok the other day, and it was about how to create an hourglass figure. According to TikTok, it's got 4 million views. And so many people, and especially young women that follow me on TikTok are obsessed with creating this hourglass physique because that's what a lot of these people that people look up to, that's what the physique they have.
(43:43):
They have an hourglass figure. And to be honest with you, a lot of these idols that people look up to have actually achieved their physique through surgeries and through unnatural ways. It's not from training hard, it's not from eating a certain diet, it's not from doing certain workouts and doing certain exercises. They've literally bought that physique and they're striving so much to look like someone else, and they're caring about what other people think about what they look like. There's comments on their post, I'll never have this body, this sucks. Please post a workout that I can do that's going to help me look like this. They're so concerned about looking like this. This is not something that we need to be focusing on. We need to focus on. Coming back to, I can't remember what stoic said it, and it is just a super simple quote, but it's about controlling what you can control and letting go of what can't, what we need to focus on. I guess another aspect of majoring in the mine is not just on things like cardio and supplements, but also our mentality and our mindset. We need to focus on what we can change.
(44:51):
Number nine, it's the reverse minoring in the majors and things like we have to focus on sleep, but everyone overlooks it because it's not a sexy topic. Sleep for seven to nine hours. What? No one's going to listen to that. No one wants to sleep for seven to nine hours because you're missing out on things. That means you can't stream the latest TV series. That means you can't go to the party where all the cool kids are hanging out. That means you don't get to see your friends, alright? That means you can't play the game after work that you always play. Tough luck, man. You have to make sacrifices somewhere. But if you want to make massive progress to your goals, you should be well slept. That's going to help you physically, but also cognitively, it's going to help you a lot mentally, spiritually too.
(45:45):
It helps you feel good about yourself. You feel less tired. You feel probably more optimistic. Well slept. You're recharged. You're probably going to snap at people less at work, right? Sleep is super important, but no one talks about it because number one, you can't profit off sleep because people sleep and it's free. And number two, you're missing out on things. And then there's things like consistency, physical activity, going for walks, getting eight to 10,000 steps per day. That's not a sexy thing to talk about your lifestyle. That comes back to overall how much sleep you're getting, how much you're walking, what sort of things you're doing. Are you drinking too much? Are you taking too many drugs? Are you doing things like this? Right? This is important. Often people don't want to talk about alcohol because people will get pushback, but here I am questioning, are you drinking too much alcohol that's negatively affecting your testosterone? That's going to negatively impact how much muscle you can build and how much you're going to recover after your workouts.
(46:45):
Exercise selection, what exercises are you doing? No one wants to talk about that. They want to talk about how much cardio should I be doing? What supplements should I be taking? What's this person's workout? I need to do this. No, you need to do the exercises that are going to get you to your goals. To your goals. Sorry, do you want to build solid pair of glutes? Okay, let's do a hip hinge. Let's do a bridge. Let's do a hip thrust. Let's do a squat. Let's do a low bar squat. Let's do step ups. Let's do a leg press with your heels high. These are the things we should be discussing if you want to really achieve your goals. So obviously it depends on what goals you have, but we need to stop minoring in the majors worrying about. We need to start worrying about things that matter as opposed to caring about things that don't.
(47:34):
Ultimately what 0.8 and 0.9 are about? Number 10, this is the last point, your ego, right? That's the biggest mistake people carry into the gym is their ego. And then obviously there's the concept of ego lifting. And I do want to talk about that because that's how people get injured, people showing off, guys showing off to girls, girls showing off to guys, guys showing off to guys, girls showing off to girls, people trying to show off, people trying to lift weights that are too heavy, that's going to get injured. Okay? That's a huge mistake because you'll be lifting these weights with shitty form. That's how you get injured. But it's also how you limit your potential because your form that you think is good enough to lift certain heavy weights is never going to get better because you're not training well. But the second sort of ego that I want to talk about is ego knowing.
(48:28):
So there's ego lifting and there's also ego knowing, and this is people with a huge ego that think they know what they're talking about in the gym. And as a personal trainer, this is pretty frustrating, and this is why I don't go up to people when they're training and say, Hey man, you're doing that wrong. You should try it like this. It doesn't work because people have an ego and they think they know everything. And it obviously depends how you approach people, because I actually got a number of face-to-face clients by walking up to clients in a respectful way saying, Hey mate, when you're doing, okay, so I'll give you an example of how I got a face-to-face client. And my intention wasn't really to get him as a client, it was just to help him out. I was training, I was doing squats, and in my wrist period, I took my headphones off and I walked over to him and I said, Hey mate, my name's Brock.
(49:14):
I'm a personal trainer here, and I'm training, so you probably didn't think I was a personal trainer here, but can I help you with your chest press form? And he was like, sure. He was a nice guy. And I said, so when you're doing this chest press machine, try not to flare your elbows. Try and keep your elbows a bit tighter to your body and it's going to be a lot better for your chest. It's also going to feel a lot better for your shoulders. And that's all I did. And he said, thanks. And I finished, walked away. I went back to squatting. At the end of a session, he came up to me and said, Hey mate, I'd love to see what you're like as a personal trainer. How do I get your details? And then we went from there. My intention wasn't to get him as a client, oh, you're rubbing my hands together.
(49:59):
Here we go. It's going to be an easy one. I wasn't doing that. I just wanted to help him while I was training and as my gym, and I kind of prided myself in knowing all the members and being helpful, and that's what I wanted to do, regardless if they were my clients or not. And he didn't have an ego of being, oh, I know what I'm doing. Please don't talk to me. And I got that a lot in the gym, and that's what often stops people from getting the results is people think that they know what they're doing. And there were people in the gym that I used to work at that would walk around with their piece of paper, and when I first started as a personal trainer there I was very young and I'd just walk around and try and help people.
(50:42):
I'd say, Hey, mate, how are you going? And they'll be like, oh, good, thanks. Yeah, please just leave me trained. Leave me alone, and I get it. Also, they just want to train. But also I could have given them some knowledge. I'd studied a lot. I was also just learning, and I was also passing happy to pass on my knowledge that I was learning, but their ego was just so strong that they were closed to hearing any sort of advice. They could have been doing the absolutely worst things for their goals, but they would never know it. They're just focused on this programme that they wrote three years ago, and they're doing it every single day, and this is what I do and this is why, blah, blah, blah, and they're not making any progress. It's your ego, right? So ego lifting big, no-no. That's how you get injured, and that's how you stop progress.
(51:30):
Ego knowing that's how you stop making progress to your goals because there's always new knowledge to be made, and there's always things we can learn from people that can help us get to our goals. Okay, so let me just summarise these points. Number one, okay, let me summarise that one more time. 10 huge mistakes you cannot be making in the gym. Number one, no goal. You cannot have no goal. You need to have something to strive towards. Number two, you cannot have no plan. If you have no way of getting to where you want to be, you'll never get there. Number three, no structure. You need to have a structure to get there. What are you doing on Monday? What are you doing on Tuesday? What are you doing on Wednesday? Have a structure to help you get to where you want to go, and you have to set that first.
(52:20):
Number four, don't get too advanced too early. You need to focus on mastering the basics. Number five, you may not be training hard enough. Try to push to those involuntary reps when you're trying to build muscle, and that's going to be a great sign that you're in the right place. Number six, don't train every day, six days max, preferably five. And to be honest, if you're training anywhere between three to six days, that's fine. You just need to know what you're doing in those days and trying to make the most of your time that you're in the gym. But you definitely don't need to have seven days. One thing I'll quickly add on training every day is if you're not training every day, you can also have kind of mental days. There's physical days of training, but there's also mental days on days I don't train.
(53:08):
Instead of training, study, watch an extra online course video, which is what I do, or read a book, even though you're physically not training mentally, you can still go, go, go, go, go, go. You can still read, you can still study, you can still work on your business, you can still, excuse me, can still do things, but you don't need to train every day. Number seven, another big mistake. No enjoyment or no discipline, right? Try and find something that you enjoy or try and find the discipline within yourself to make sure that you do it. Number eight, majoring in the minors. Too many people are focusing on things that don't matter. An example, supplements. What fat burner should I take? Number nine, minoring in the majors. A lot of people are not focusing on the things that really do matter. Sleep consistency, physical activity, mindset, what sort of exercises you're doing, and number 10, your ego, ego lifting and ego knowing. Leave that at the door. That gets you nowhere. Guys, I hope that this podcast has been very helpful. I think this is going to be about an hour long. It's been really awesome to share these lessons that I've had as a face-to-Face personal trainer, and now as an online personal trainer for over a couple of years.
(54:33):
I get thousands of people results, and it's only going to continue to grow that number. I still study every day, and on this podcast, I want to continue to bring knowledge. I think I'm going to dive more into podcasts and more of a kind of research behind things. Maybe certain supplements, certain exercises, certain strategies so that you are getting advice that's backed by evidence. Obviously, everything that I say is backed by evidence because that's all I study, but that's also nice for you to know the papers and where we're getting the stats from and the knowledge. So hopefully this podcast has been helpful. If you do enjoy it, please leave reviews, five star reviews, preferably, and help me grow this podcast that helps me get a guests on the podcast, which I'm going to be working on. If you can watch it on YouTube, that also helps as well.
(55:27):
I'm trying to get my watch time up, which is something that I really have to increase if I want to continue to grow my channel. So the length of time that people spend on my channel. I think having great podcasts will continue to grow that. So if you could share this with a friend or two or share on your socials, that will help me out a lot. If you do want coaching team brock hp.com is where you can find me. We just started the Built by Brock Challenge on Monday this week, so that is not open, but the Mail Guide, the Beginner's Guide, and one-to-one coaching is still open. The Male Guide 2.0 will be coming out next week, most probably, or the week after that. So that's the second edition of the Male Body Transformation Guide, which has transformed thousands of men around the world, which is really cool. I'm really excited to bring out the second edition of that. Yeah, and that's pretty much it guys. I'm Brock Ashby socials. You probably know where to find me. Just search my name and have a great day. I'll talk to you very soon, and much love. Stay safe. Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up everybody? Welcome to the Better with Brock podcast, episode number 20. Today we have the legend Jordan side. He's been a massive inspiration to me and also just, man, I think you were one of the pioneers of, I guess the no BSS fitness industry that's running rampant at the moment. So man, I appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you do and it's awesome. Take you on the podcast, man. Thanks for coming on,
Jordan Syatt (00:00:27):
Man. Thank you. I'm stoked to be here. Like I was saying before, sorry for all the bullshit scheduling that I put you through. For everyone listening, I made Brock jump through hoops to get on this fucking podcast, and it was not deliberate. I'm just the worst with calendars and scheduling. So thank you for hanging in there and dealing with all my nonsense,
Brock Ashby (00:00:47):
Man. I appreciate you jumping on. All good, brother. I kind of wanted to touch on a little bit just how you're posting the exercises We shouldn't be doing, people losing their shit. I just think it's hilarious. Where I'm from in Christchurch, New Zealand, it's not really small town living, but it's real. I find the smaller the cities, and I haven't travelled much, so correct me if I'm wrong, I know you're well travelled. I guess the more straight up people are, they tell you how it is, and I found when I moved to bigger cities, and maybe I just went to the wrong bigger cities, but people were a bit kind of just tell you what you want to hear and they kind of schmoozed you and they were like, everyone wanted to be nice. And then I found that the same in the fitness industry. Then you come across someone like yourself who just tells it how it is. What made you want to just, have you always been like this? Have you always just wanted to post that? Was it something that you came across, you're like, oh, nah, I'm just going to be myself now.
Jordan Syatt (00:01:44):
Yeah, so there's a lot to it. So first and foremost, thank you for the kind words. Second, I would say I started making content in July of 2011, so 11 years ago now I started making content. It's been a long fucking time and I have a lot of practise with it, and if you go back and look at the content I made early on in 20 11, 20 12, 20 13, you'll see a very different content creator. You'll see someone, you'll see a young guy who was very nervous, who I was so nervous when I was on camera that I would sway back and forth side to side and I would get red in the face. I'd get red in the face and I'd be swaying side to side and people would comment, they'd be like, this is great information, but relax a little bit. I'd be so nervous on camera, and when I was really nervous about being on camera, I wasn't as direct because I was.
(00:02:41):
So, the thing that I was really nervous about was I was young, I was like 21, 22, and online fitness wasn't really a thing yet. It wasn't a big thing at that time. I was so nervous about other professionals saying, you're wrong. This is incorrect, dah, dah, dah, dah. That's why I got so nervous. It wasn't because I was nervous to put myself out there per se. I was nervous about being called out and someone thinking that I didn't know what I was talking about. That's what I was really worried about with that mindset. I didn't have the mental or emotional capacity to really be myself because I was so worried about not being wrong. As I grew in the industry, and as I grew as a coach and became more confident in myself as a human and as a coach, then I was like, ah, fuck it.
(00:03:26):
I don't really care. And I was able to be more of myself and my content because it got to a point where I truly just didn't really care. Not to say I don't care what people think, I just didn't care if someone disagreed with me. I think that was the big jump where before I didn't want anyone to disagree with me. I felt if someone disagreed with me, then there was something wrong with me or I'd have to get into an argument and a confrontation. I didn't want to do any of that. Eventually I got to point where I was like, fuck it. If someone disagrees with me or has a confrontation with me, whatever, it doesn't really matter. So I didn't care about that anymore, and then I could say whatever I wanted and be more of myself. And I grew up in Boston, and Boston is an east coast city in the United States where people, it's like New York, they just don't give a fuck.
(00:04:12):
It's like they say it like it is. It's funny because you have east coast versus west coast, so Boston, New York versus California and stuff. And Californians often tend to be like, Hey man, much more relaxed, bro. But oftentimes they won't be as direct or confrontational or straightforward. It might be a little bit more beat around the bush more politically correct. And East coast, they're like, fuck you, whatever you want to say, you say it. So it's actually really funny because a huge portion of my audience is actually, it started out as East Coast people because it appreciated what I was like, and often the West coast people did not like how I was so brash. Sometimes now it's grown, but I think my most diehard supporters are people who just like to be, if I get a nice message from someone, it almost always says, I appreciate your straightforward, no bullshit attitude. If I get a mean message from someone, it's almost always like, I don't like how mean you are or how much you swear. So it's the same attitude, garnering two different responses from two different types of people.
Brock Ashby (00:05:21):
And did anyone ever call you out in a big way?
Jordan Syatt (00:05:26):
I mean, in a big way, yeah. I've had people call me out to their audiences if someone has a big audience. I've had people do that for sure, and at first it used to, I think any business owner, regardless of fitness industry or not, whatever industry you're in, if you own a business, there's always a fear of could I lose everything? Everything that you've spent so much time and energy building, there's always some fear of will I lose it all? And so there were times where someone would call me out and I'd get so nervous because I'd be like, fuck, now all of their followers think I'm an idiot and everything's going to collapse. And it didn't and everything was totally fine. So earlier on, it would be a big deal. Even today, if someone called me out today, I wouldn't be happy about it. I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm so happy that someone with a big audience just called me an idiot. But yeah, it does happen for sure. And usually at this point in my career, I'll either ignore it or if I do address it, I'll just be like, listen, they're entitled to their opinion. That's fine, but it is what it is.
Brock Ashby (00:06:26):
Yeah. Do you think it's harder to start now? Because I feel like you were very early to the game. You were early on YouTube, you were early on Instagram. I know you started early on TikTok, then you're kind of like, ah, this place isn't for me. Screw this. But there's so many people out there, even I'm on TikTok and there's a lot of accounts like user 1700 million and 42, and that is like, you're wrong. You shit, you are dumb. Arnold didn't say that, blah, blah, blah. Do you think it's harder now to post because there's just so much more awareness, there's so much more usership on these platforms?
Jordan Syatt (00:07:04):
Yeah, so it's an interesting perspective. So in one, most people when they ask this question, they say, is it harder to start because there are so many more fitness professionals on? And for that I would say no, it's not harder, mainly because I would say yeah, there are many more fitness professionals, but the number of fitness professionals who are actually very good at being a coach and also who are very good at posting content and who are also very consistent at posting content, those three things, it's tiny. It's a minuscule percentage of people. So in that instance, no, it's not harder at all. Now, I would actually say it might even be easier now on that front because you have so much more great content available to see and to model your own content off of. When I first started, it was like, I'm just making everything.
(00:07:52):
I have no idea how to make content. I'm just going to, whatever comes to my mind, I'm going to format it in whatever way possible. And I mean, that's how I came up with infographics. I was like, I'll just try this shit in 2017 and that went off, but you make shit up Now you can sort of say, oh, I like how that person does it. I like how that looks. And I'll sort of make my message into something that looks similar to something I've already seen. So in that stance, I think it's actually easier. But from the question you asked in terms of, because there's so many people on there now and there can be a great amount of positivity, but also a lot of negativity, I think it's harder. It's much harder now because when I first got on, there was negativity for sure, but not like there is now and not with the ease of, for example, when I first started, I was really only on my personal Facebook page and my website.
(00:08:42):
That's really all there was. Instagram didn't exist in 2011. I was posting on my personal Facebook page and my website and on a website, especially back then in 2011, 2012, when I first started, I was only having 20 views a day on my website, and it was like 18 of them were my mom. That was it. So I wasn't getting a tonne of other people. And for someone to go out of their way to read a 2000 word article and then leave a comment, like a negative comment, that's a big time investment on their part. And usually if someone goes to an article, they're going to read most if not the entire thing. Now someone will see a 15 second reel, watch the first two and a half seconds and then leave a mean comment. The comments are right there, it's super easy. It's going right in front of their face. You don't have to go to a website to find, it's just the ease of it being shown to you. It's so much faster and more accessible and the comments button is right there. So I think now, because there's so much more ability for people to give their unsolicited opinion without actually even fully understanding the nuance of it, you're saying it can be more difficult from an emotional and mental perspective to put yourself out there.
Brock Ashby (00:09:49):
A hundred percent. Yeah. I found that with, so I did a post and I wasn't saying I was against body positivity, but people just took the first part of the video absolutely wrong. All I was trying to say this certain individual said that this is where my body wants to be. And then I came with the approach of that's not really how I'd look at it. I'd look at it more like that's a result of your lifestyle, your genetics, your activity, what you consume and all of that. And then all these people just jumped in. I think this is what she meant. I think this is what she meant. And then I was like, well, if she meant that she'd probably use that would, I was trying to be real respectful, man. I could have just been like, this is, look, I was like, look man, if she meant that she wouldn't have spoke metaphorically.
(00:10:36):
Like you misread her metaphor. And I was like, man, if I didn't have thick skin, I can take that. I've been online not as long as you since 2011, I started in 2015. But you kind of develop thick skin and just realise people just post them because I don't know, there's something going on in their life where they just want to say, they just want to have this kind of opinion that's heard and they just kind of throw stuff at you. But yeah, especially TikTok, I find that it's pretty, I can understand why you jumped off or why you didn't really find
Jordan Syatt (00:11:07):
The comments. Section on TikTok is the worst. It's unbelievably stupid. So if I do post, I just don't look at the comments anymore. But what you just said is actually one of the reasons why I don't do much content, that there's a whole, and I've seen you doing this and I've loved your content on it, but a lot of people are now doing the content where they'll screen record what someone else has said and then they'll make content on it. And I've done that a little bit. But for example, my buddy James Smith, he does this all the time. James does this all the time and he's super good at it, and he's very deliberate in one of the reasons why he'll do it, because it will drive more engagement, dah, dah. For me personally, I've done that to a few people. Mainly I would do it to people like Drew Barrymore had the fucking dumbest thing.
(00:11:58):
It was these vegetable lollipops. It was like, alright, what the fuck is this nonsense? So I did that and I knew Drew Barrymore wasn't going to make a reel about me doing, she's not going to go out of her way to do that. Number one, she looked like a complete idiot, but I just know she's not going to do that. I tend to stay away from other people in the industry making content. That's why I'll make up my own characters. That's why I'll put a wig on and I'll make something else up. Because inevitably, if you end up using someone else's content, you are going to piss them off. You are essentially no matter what, burning a bridge every single time. And so for me, it's like I don't want to burn a tonne of bridges. I don't want to. Gary Vaynerchuk said something that always stuck out to me basically saying, if you want to build the biggest house or the biggest building, you have two ways of doing it.
(00:12:51):
You can try and tear every other building down, or you can try and make your building the biggest, and you could just try and build the tallest building. And so I realised that I was spending so much time when I would call people out worrying about what they were saying or what the people who their followers were saying, or the pissing contest between us was like, fuck it, I'm just going to, if I see something stupid, then I will not use this individual. Or if it is an individual, I'll make sure that it's something that there's no way, either they're going to see it or it's very rare that they're going to, or it's not going to end in a pissing match. I knew I was not going to end in a pissing match with Drew Barrymore, but she doesn't give a shit about what I, she's laughing the whole way to the bank. She doesn't care at all. But I see a lot of people doing that within the fitness industry to other fitness industry professionals. And it's fine if that's what that coach wants to do, but for me personally, I'm like, social media is draining enough. I don't need to make more fucking struggles for myself by bringing out more controversy and more burning bridges and more, I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. If I need to do something, I'll put on a wig and I'll make something up based off something I saw.
Brock Ashby (00:14:01):
Yeah, it's hard to really, yeah, it is a challenge. You feel like you're walking on this tight rope. I always do my best to go at an idea as opposed to a person, but often people find it very hard to separate. They're like, oh, you called this person out. And I'm like, no, it's the information that they're talking about. I'm not saying that they need to do this or that. They are wrong, but yeah, I know what you mean. You get stuck in this kind of fight where it's like I wasn't necessarily, I really don't want to fight people. I'm just trying to be like, I found that if I would just create a video where I'm just talking about the topic, people are just like, okay, but yeah, maybe I need to put on a blonde wig or put on some roller blades and try something new.
Jordan Syatt (00:14:42):
But dude, even your videos have been great. I've posted so much less on my feed recently for a number of
Brock Ashby (00:14:48):
Reasons. I see that, man, I was just looking, your last post is the 7th of July,
Jordan Syatt (00:14:53):
And even before that, it was way before I go through phases. But right now in my career, number one, I could lose followers and I'd be totally fine. I don't really care. The other thing is, man, I've been doing this for a long time and I'm fucking tired of the nonsense. My favourite type of content is number one podcast. So having amazing conversations like this and also Instagram story, q and as, Q and as, I love because I can take time to really put nuance into it. And through spending so many years doing them, my audience, they will spend 20 or 30 minutes going through my q and as, holding them down, reading the entire thing. They're ready for long form content on my stories where I can get into nuance. Whereas on the feed, so much of it is how can I get their attention super fast and how can I keep them on it for as long as possible just so that it will reach more people and get more followers.
(00:15:53):
And one thing as coaches that we do is we always tell our clients, don't worry about the number on the scale. Don't worry about the number on the scale. It doesn't mean anything, dah, dah, dah, dah. And meanwhile, all we're focusing on is the number of followers that we're getting and we're doing all these things just to bump up the number of followers just to bump up the number of followers. It's like there's nothing wrong with getting more followers, but when that's your soul focus, it steals your soul. It's poison for your, I'm like, I'm fucking done with it.
Brock Ashby (00:16:20):
And it often changes the message that you originally want to say because you have to say it in a different way.
Jordan Syatt (00:16:25):
Correct. That's exactly right. I was like, I would way rather just go on my stories and put something out in a very simple, easy to understand way than have to put on this wig and dance around for a fucking hour and then edit this piece of content where I don't even get the best information across. It's much better when I do it in a story q and a for me at least. And I understand I'm fortunate and blessed in the sense that I already have a large number of people looking at my stories. So if I was starting from today, I would have to go to my feed. I couldn't just go on my stories. If I lost all my accounts and everything and was starting from zero, I'd have to do that bullshit on the feed just to get more eyes on me and engagement. But at this point in my career, I'm fucking tired of it.
Brock Ashby (00:17:07):
So is that why you jumped into writing a book? Is that something that you always wanted to do? I know you wrote Eat it, you put it out with your mate, Mike, is that something that you always wanted to do? Is that because it's more long form content, it's stuff you enjoy and people that are reading it are actually going to absorb it, or it's not like the first couple pages or the first two seconds of a reel and then they throw it away?
Jordan Syatt (00:17:28):
Yeah, so it is a great question. I think there's a bunch of aspects. Number one, I think is just a bucket list ego type thing where it's like, it's cool to say I've written a book. I think that's probably a major, if I'm being honest and objective, it's partly for my ego and to say, I wrote a book, cool. As of right now, I have no fucking desire to write book. That was a brutal process. It really was, and I'm very proud of it, but it was brutal. The other part of it, and I think the major part was I have a tonne of articles on my website. I have thousands of articles. I have almost a thousand YouTube videos, I have hundreds of podcasts. I have thousands and thousands of Instagram posts all over the internet. But nowhere is my methodology compiled into one easy to access manual.
(00:18:18):
It's like you can't get all of my thoughts on all these topics cohesively in a very well thought out in your hand here, this is everything you need. You'd have to scroll through my Instagram and find random posts and go to my website and find other articles and go to my YouTube and it's all here in the book. So for me, it's just, Hey, you need to know what I think about this. Here's the book. It's in there and you can carry it with you, you can travel it with you, you can travel with you, whatever it is. Whereas with the other stuff, it's not as cohesive and not as in the right order. So I think that was the biggest part of it. And yeah, going forward, I was talking to my buddy Mike about it. I was like, the only way that I would write another book is if I was offered an unbelievable amount of money because it's the process of writing a book.
(00:19:05):
It's devastatingly brutal, and this isn't even a super long book. The whole purpose was to actually make it relatively easy to read so people could read it within a day and a half, two days and have everything they need if they really wanted to. I mean, I don't know how some people like JK rowing who's one of my favourite authors of all time writing seven part series, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages, each book getting longer than the last. I'm like, God bless her soul. I don't know how these authors do it. It's unbelievable.
Brock Ashby (00:19:33):
But do you think nonfiction is more challenging than fiction when you're trying to use research and if it's your imagination, it's kind of all subjective and you can make up your own truths, but especially when you're talking about diet and sustainability, there's really strong research that you kind of want to follow or you might get.
Jordan Syatt (00:19:55):
So that's a great question. I think in some ways it's easier. In some ways it's harder. I think for example, we look at Harry Potter, we look at Lord of the Rings, whatever. I mean are, I don't think people understand the gravity, how unbelievably genius these books and stories are. They knew from page word one, page one, what was going to happen. They had to have all of this planned out ahead of time or else it wouldn't have worked. Literally, Lord, he made up a language. He literally made up an entire language that people speak now and to have all of these moving parts that I think it's a level of genius that we really can't comprehend. So in that sense, I think it's way more difficult. On the other hand, you can use your imagination and it's art in the sense of you can make it up whatever you want.
(00:20:46):
Do you want to have a spell that does this random shit, cool, got a spell that does that random shit needs to solve this. Cool. So in that sense, it can be more fun and imaginative. Whereas with our work, the more science-based work, it's easier in that there are objective truths. It's like these are reasons why the scale might fluctuate. We know that here. We'll list them all out scientifically. Why on the other hand, it's harder in that it is often very difficult to get someone who's not really passionate about this stuff to actually spend the time reading it and learning it. So I think we all know if you go to school and you're in a textbook and it's just so dry and boring, you're not going to read it. So that's where we have to bring the creativity and the writing skill and the ability to keep people's attention, which I think can make it more difficult when you have a set in stone list of rules and objectives that you have to follow when you could sort of choose your road in nonfiction or in fiction, whatever it is, when you can choose whatever you want it to be, you have so many more options, you can make it more interesting.
(00:21:50):
But for more science-based text, well now all of a sudden like, Hey, here's the guidelines, and within these guidelines you have to figure out ways to be more creative and fun and engaging. I think that's a different type of skill.
Brock Ashby (00:22:02):
So what were the things that you really wanted to drive home in the book? Obviously sustainability, I know is one of your key foundations or pillars that you put to a diet. What other things did you want to drive? Or was it really just like, this is the long-term game, this is what we need to focus on?
Jordan Syatt (00:22:20):
The main thing, when I first started doing one-on-one online coaching in 2012 is when I got my first ever online client, I realised it was very different than in-person coaching for a number of reasons. In-person coaching is obviously, especially when you're a personal trainer, it's more personal training, it's strength training, it's technique, it's all that stuff. And they'll talk about nutrition and everything, but it's not a nutrition consultation. You're there, you're coaching them, you're making sure they're using the right muscles, they're not going to hurt themselves, all that stuff. One-on-one online coaching, now you have much more time to converse about nutrition. You have much more time to discuss what they're struggling with individually from an emotional perspective, psychological perspective with their spouse, with their kids, with their work. Now all of a sudden, all the things you couldn't talk about as much in person is becoming a huge part of the conversation.
(00:23:14):
And it's not just once or twice a week. It's 4, 5, 6, 7 times a week. They're emailing you every day. And so you have way more communication, which is why I've always said, I think in-person coaching can often be better for strength training. Online coaching is often better for nutrition because you actually can really talk to them and get to know them better and know what's actually going on outside of simply the food choices. So what I realised through online nutrition coaching was the main reason people were not succeeding had nothing to do with their knowledge or very little to do with their knowledge. It wasn't that they didn't know what to do. They knew they should be eating more fruits and vegetables. They knew they should be eating more lean protein. They knew they should be working out. They knew they should be sleeping well. They knew they should drink more water.
(00:23:59):
They knew all this stuff. They know it. The issue I found is that as soon as they went off track, and that's in air quotes, as soon as they had a bad food or a bad meal or went on vacation or had a weekend where they weren't tracking or they went over their calories one day, they felt like they fucked up. They felt like they ruined all of their progress. They felt like everything was, well, what's the point of trying if I already failed? So then they go off track, they binge for a day, a week, a month, whatever it is. And so that's their cycle, the yo-yo dieting cycle. And I ended up making video courses for all of my one-on-one clients, and it was a 30 video courses that I would send them one new one every day. And they were between two to five minutes.
(00:24:40):
And this is their introductory video course to working with me. And the first video I sent them had nothing to do with nutrition. It had nothing to do with calories or macros or protein or carbs or fats. It had nothing to do with strength training. It had nothing to do with consistency. It had nothing to do with anything. The first video was titled, you Can't Fuck This Up. And it was me talking about how I don't care if they go over their calories for a day or for a week or for a month. I don't care if they miss one workout, three workouts, seven workouts, I don't care. I don't care what happens. The only way you fuck up is if you quit altogether because as long as you get right back on track, you will make progress, period, end of story. And that is what I made the first chapter of this book, and it's really, we spent the first couple of chapters really hammering that home because if you don't have that as the foundation for your knowledge, if you don't know that you can't fail, if you don't know that, then you are going to set yourself up for failure in the long run because at any point in time, you will use any mistake as a justification to quit altogether.
(00:25:46):
So that for me is like that's the foundation of the book. That's the message we drive home throughout the entire book. It's what you would call in a speech you'd call the through line where that's like, this is what we're trying to get across, that the entire message of this book is cool. Here are your calories, here are your macros. Here's your strength training programme. Here's your nutrition. Here's all this. But no matter what, the one thing you need to remember is you only fail if you quit. As long as you get right back on track, I don't care what happens, just keep on going. And as long as they do that, they'll succeed. That's really the foundation of it.
Brock Ashby (00:26:21):
Yeah, I think that's super key. And coming from face-to-face, personal training myself, I started on the gym floor as well, and I was there for a few years before I went online. It's really hard to, you can email back and forth, but often I found that my one-to-one face-to-face. Clients didn't want to email and stuff. They saw me. They're like, oh, I'll just talk about it when I see you. But then you have 60 minutes, sorry, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, maybe two minutes in a rest period. You can't break down anything in that amount of time. If you want to talk about nutrition, first of all, they can't breathe, so then they're drinking, they're not really listening, and then you just kind of rattle off this random thing, maybe about a calorie deficit or proteins important or sleep and all that kind of stuff, and there's just no time for it.
(00:27:05):
I definitely found that too, but I found that the standard of personal training when I first started, I find that I was, and I thought I was giving a minimal the standard, but it's hard because it's unregulated. The standard of personal training is unfortunately quite low. I bought an iPad and I had my programmes with them, and I just saw PTs walking around and they were busy, too busy. PTs just walking around. And I started in fitness first, like a commercial gym that's just very, just get started. And as long as you're paying rent, you're all good. As long as you're paying rent, you're not injuring members, then you're all good. Yeah, they would just walk in and look around. Oh, the bench press is free. Like, oh, we'll just go over here. Oh, did we train chess last time? Oh, we'll do back. Oh, we'll do Ben over road. It was just crazy. I was like, this is madness.
Jordan Syatt (00:27:56):
Yeah, dude, it's so true. It's funny. The barrier to entry to becoming a coach is super low. It's a very low barrier to entry. So anyone can do it. Anyone can put it in their Instagram bio and all of a sudden they're a coach. Now, what's interesting though is what you said, how these were busy personal trainers, right? So busy, they had a lot of clients. And to you, someone who values the science of this and the coaching, you're like, what the fuck? They don't even know what they're going to train today. They're about to make up the workout, but they're super busy. And that is something that I think most coaches, especially science-based coaches, let's be very honest, most science-based coaches suck with people. They're fucking awful. And they're like, well, I'm a great coach. And they get super jealous at coaches with big audiences or are doing really well, and they're like, well, I'm a better coach than them.
(00:28:45):
It's like, well, listen, part of coaching is knowledge, but what you have to remember is that you're coaching a real human being and they don't give a fuck how much knowledge you have if they don't like you, if you aren't likeable, if you don't care about them, I don't care how knowledgeable someone is. If I don't like them, I'm not going to pay them to learn from them, period. Why would I spend time with someone that I don't like? So I would rather probably spend money with someone who maybe might not be as knowledgeable, but I love them. I love hanging out with them. They make my hour better. It's not so many coaches look at this, well, you need to optimise this hour or so. Every single thing is perfect, and it's like people don't give a fuck if you're being really annoying. They're not going to spend 1, 2, 3, 4 hours with you every week. No, absolutely not. They're going to find the coach that makes them feel good. It's an enjoyable hour. It'll push them. But most importantly, they just like being around them. That's what it is. So if you can have both, be really knowledgeable and very likeable and be good with people, that's really where the magic happens. And I think too many coaches end up only focusing on the science, and then they're not busy at all and they're not helping anybody.
Brock Ashby (00:29:55):
Exactly. Yeah. I found that when I first started in here in Sydney, I started in New Zealand, but I came over and I was young, so I was maybe 21, 22 pt, but I was putting in the hours. I started at 6:00 AM I finished at 8:00 PM I was just walking the gym floor trying to be friends. You've been through it, the grind, and I was grinding, and there was these guys with PhDs and they had their own physiotherapy clinics on the side, and they were looking at me, and I remember one pulling me aside, he is like, Hey, man, with your client that's doing pull-ups, you can't do it like that. He's like, you can't do it like that.
(00:30:29):
It was breaking down the scapula. I've never heard it before. I was like, look, man, thanks, but no thanks. But he was not busy enough, and I was young, but I was passionate and I was learning and I was getting it, and I was being nice. And he was just like this guy that was just trying to point fingers over there, Hey, man, you need to break down the scapula. That's not very good for them in the long term. And I was just like, man, I once again, fortunate to know that, okay, it's more this guy's problem than my problem, because what I saw was perfectly fine. Maybe he saw a dodgy rep when they were tired, but it's really tricky coming in when you're young and you're trying to be a pt, and then to throw on nutrition on top of that with timing and stuff like that. It's really difficult. How did you transition to online? I probably did that in 2020. I went full-time online just before the pandemic. And I know you did it a bit earlier. How did you transition to that?
Jordan Syatt (00:31:29):
Yeah, so I went fully online in 2014, super
Brock Ashby (00:31:35):
Early to the game man.
Jordan Syatt (00:31:36):
Yeah, really early. And I was very lucky and blessed, but basically, so I was coaching people in person from when I was in 2005. 2006 is when I started doing in-person coaching. And I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do. I just got an internship when I was in high school. I was wrestling. I started wrestling when I was eight years old, and basically I made varsity as a freshman in high school. So first year of high school I made varsity and I beat a junior out for the varsity spot. But I was good from a technique perspective and endurance perspective, but because I was so young going up against mainly older kids, my strength wasn't where it needed to be. So I wrote to a gym. I sent an email to a gym a couple towns over for me in Boston, and I was like, I'll take the trash out, I'll clean the floors, just like, let me come and learn from you.
(00:32:26):
And not only did they take me out of their wing, but they were also very science-based. So from 14 years old, I was in a very science-based gym, which was just so incredibly lucky. And so I knew I wanted to coach people, and I did that from then all the way until 2014 I was doing in-person, but I started online in 2011. It was like when I started making online content, got my first client in 2012 and started to build up over those next couple of years building an online programme. And I went fully online in 2014. And basically I started with just one-on-one coaching. So I was just doing one-on-one online coaching. I'll tell you the first time I ever got a one-on-one client, it was 2012, I had been making content online for a year, year and a half or so, all on my personal Facebook page and website.
(00:33:17):
And I was coaching people online, mostly my roommates in college and high school friends and all of that, but all for free. I wasn't charging anybody because I didn't know that I could charge. I didn't know it was possible, and I just loved coaching people. So I was like, yeah, people were like, Hey, can you write me a programme? Yeah, sure, I'll write you a programme. And I would coach people online. And then one day I got an email from a woman in Brazil, this is in 2012, and the way that she phrased her email changed my life forever. She said, Hey, Jordan, love your content again. Instagram didn't exist yet. It was all my website. Love your content. How much do you charge for online coaching? And I was like, I have no fucking clue. Well,
Brock Ashby (00:34:00):
Usually it's free. But
Jordan Syatt (00:34:01):
Yeah. So I replied, I just made up a number on my head. I was like 300 bucks. And in my head I'm like, I'm 21, 22 years old. I'm like, there's no way that this person who I've never met who lives in another country is going to pay me $300 to write a programme. And she comes back, she's like, amazing. How do I pay you? And I'm looking around my dorm room at my roommates. I didn't say anything. I thought I was going to jinx it. So then I go on Google and I Google search how to make payments online, and I found paypal.com, which I didn't know existed. And so I made an account and all this stuff, and I created a link for $300. It was $300 for 12 weeks of coaching. And so it was super low price. So then I sent her the link and looking back, it's super low price, but then I was like, I'm about to be rich, 300 bucks.
(00:34:56):
I couldn't believe it. And so I sent her the link, and in my mind I'm like, there's no way she's actually going to send me the money. There's no way. And very quickly I get a notification from PayPal saying There's $300 in my account. I lost my shit. My roommate had just come back from working a double as a waiter in a bar, and he was super excited because he made 120 bucks after a 12 hour shift. And I was like, bro, I just made 300 bucks just now. And he couldn't believe it. And so I spent the next 48 hours, there's a cafe, like a coffee shop called Bruhaha, a couple of blocks away from my dorm room. I spent 48 hours making this programme. I mean, I spent so much time, I was so worried. I thought if I sent her the programme, she was going to be like, what is this?
(00:35:43):
And want to refund immediately. And I had to make my systems from scratch. I had no idea what I was doing. I had to make all these systems film all these videos. So the technique videos are there. I had to do everything. So I spent 48 hours making this programme before I send it over. I'm super nervous. I'm like, she's not going to like it. She's going to think this is ridiculous. Dah dah, dah. I sent it over. She's like, oh, this looks amazing. Thanks. And that was it. And she was my first online client and I was like, whew, alright. Everything is okay. And then so I went through the coaching process with her and I started taking, and then whenever anyone asked, Hey, can you write me a programme? Then I started to say things like, okay, yeah, it costs X amount per programme or in each programme is this much time. And then I eventually changed it to month to month as opposed to every 12 weeks. But that's how it started. And then by the time I got to 2014, I was fully online. And then in 2015 I started my membership and I didn't go fully into my membership until 2017.
Brock Ashby (00:36:38):
Wow, man, what a journey. Yeah, I was in a similar position when I first went online, I had nothing as well. I was doing face-to-face and maybe like you, I was doing half and half kind of, or not half and half, but as I was doing face-to-face, and I started posting online and people ask you, oh, how can I work with you? And then you get some people. Then I was like, oh, well then maybe I may have to increase my rates because then I'm just too busy. I was burning at the candle at both ends for ages a long time. Most personal trainers do, man, when I first started, I was doing the whole 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM sorry, 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM thing every day, Monday to Friday. And then gym was closed Saturday, Sunday. So I was washing dishes on the weekend. I was doing dishes Saturday morning, Saturday night dishes, Sunday morning, Sunday night, finished midnight back on the gym, 6:00 AM Monday.
(00:37:29):
It was just the grind. I feel like a lot of, there's so many online coaching courses that you can come out and just do. Then you're an online coach. It's like they don't understand what it's like, man. Yeah, I was scrambling too. My first online client, I was like, Google Sheets was that at the time? So that's how I did it all PayPal and Google Sheets and email and I was just like, yeah. The first time I did it was someone was in New Zealand where I was originally from. They followed me originally and then I came to Aussie. They were still following and they tried to work with me and it was like, I was like, okay. Then I was just like, how much does it cost? Yeah, man, I think it was like 200 bucks. I was like, you just low barrier entry. I was like, I can't believe these guys actually want to work with me.
Jordan Syatt (00:38:14):
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's really mind blowing.
Brock Ashby (00:38:17):
So I kind of followed you up a little bit and you said that you started with Kettlebells. Yeah. And then you move to powerlifting and now you're training longevity. I know you're training Jiujitsu too. Actually, a big reason why I started it too. I'm in early stages of Jiujitsu. Let's
Jordan Syatt (00:38:34):
Go.
Brock Ashby (00:38:34):
So getting my ass kicked, man. For real. What's been the, I guess, reason for your shifts in the time? Obviously you started with Kettlebells probably because you were limited with what you had, and then you went into powerlifting, which is probably the gym that you interned at, and now you're more training. Obviously you still want to be strong and build muscle or whatever when you want to. But I remember you saying you're training for longevity and training to benefit your jiujitsu as well. What's been the evolution?
Jordan Syatt (00:39:05):
Man? So there's a lot, and it's been scary every time. I changed for a number of reasons, but actually, so I first got into Kettlebells because when I started looking into strength training for wrestling, I came across this guy. I was 13, 14 years old, and I came across this guy named Pasu, who so many people know now. Pavel, right?
Brock Ashby (00:39:28):
I don't know him,
Jordan Syatt (00:39:29):
PA, oh man. He's like the guy who popularised Kettlebells. He's like this guy, P-A-V-E-L, Pavel Sauce, and he's like the godfather of kettlebells. Alright,
Brock Ashby (00:39:39):
Lemme write that down.
Jordan Syatt (00:39:42):
Super, super famous. He doesn't do as much online now, but back in the day, he's the reason Kettlebells are so popular all around the world. He's the guy who popularised them. And I found his work, and this guy's pretty skinny, not bodybuilders at all, but fucking stronger than you could ever imagine. This guy was lifting the heaviest kettlebells over his head easily the insane shit, the most insane strength. And I was like, that's what I need. I didn't want to be like a bodybuilder. I didn't want to be huge because wrestling is a weight controlled sport. I always had to keep my weight down, but I wanted to get stronger while staying the same weight. And he was always like, kettlebells are the best that all you ever need. I was also a teenager, and so I was super influenced by whatever someone said. And so basically I just assumed Kettlebells were the best. And they are great. They're a wonderful tool, especially for combat sports and for military training. They're amazing for that. But I really thought that that's all you'd ever need. And so I Google searched kettlebell gyms near me, and that's how I found the gym that I applied to when I was a teenager. It was a kettlebell gym,
(00:40:51):
So it was a kettlebell gym and they took me under their wing and they also did barbells and dumbbells, but they were known for their kettlebell training and they were very high level. And so I got certified in Kettlebells when I was 14, 15 years old. I got obsessed with kettlebell training and that's what I trained from 14 to 18 years old, was almost exclusively kettlebells. I got really fucking good with 'em and that's what helped with my wrestling training and all of that. And so then after, after high school when I decided I wasn't going to wrestle anymore, I went into power lifting. That was a logical next step for me was like, I love the strength training, but I want to go further. So I went from kettlebell training and wrestling to power lifting. Power lifting was a huge, that's really how my career started to take off because I'm a small guy. I'm five foot four, I don't know what that is in centimetres or anything, but short, super short. And I was able to deadlift four times my body weight. So that's massive. Weighing 132 pounds, I deadlifted 530 pounds, and I don't know what that is in kilogrammes, but fair enough. It's low, man. It's definitely over 200. Yes, it's significantly over 200. I think it's like 230, 200, between two 30 to two 50 kilogrammes.
(00:42:07):
And so I lifted that and I started to make a name for myself in powerlifting because this is around 2000 10, 11, 12. At that time, powerlifting was big, but it really started to get big for women. And this is sort of me being in the right place at the right time because many women started wanted to get strong. This is right at the beginning of really women being more involved in strength training and not just cardio shit and yoga and all that. They want to get strong. And so they were nervous though. They didn't want to get bulky. They didn't want to get huge. So here I come in and I'm the super small guy lifting more weight than guys who are double my size, but I don't look huge. I'm defined and lean and all that, but I'm not jacked like a bodybuilder, like, alright, well I want to work with this guy.
(00:42:55):
So when I first got into powerlifting, I thought I was going to be coaching big, sweaty, hairy dudes. And to my surprise, the vast majority of my client list was women who wanted to get stronger and wanted to lift weights and they wanted to get stronger without getting huge. That was how I started to make a name for myself. So then I was competing in powerlifting and I was doing really well, and that was driving 98% of my business, which is powerlifting women who wanted to power lift. And then I deadlifted four times body weight and I was fucking tired and achy and I just didn't want to powerlift anymore. So I retired from powerlifting and I went more towards just general health and I was very scared to do that because I literally built my entire business off the back of me being a powerlifter.
(00:43:41):
And I was super worried that if I stop powerlifting, I'm not going to have clients anymore. So it was a really difficult three to six months of transition for me. Really worried, really scared, almost like should I just continue to powerlift just because that's what I've always done, which ironically I think is what a lot of bodybuilder and physique competitors do now, even though they have a terrible relationship with food, they continue to do it because they feel like that's how they're going to make their business different story for a different day. And eventually I realised, I was like, I'm going to do what I love. I'm just going to post about that. And at that point, I wasn't in love with powerlifting anymore. I was more in love. I went back to kettlebell training, more to longevity stuff. I general strength training, combat training, wrestling, jiujitsu, all that. And sure enough, people started to ask about that type of coaching. They're like, well, can you coach me to get healthier or reduce my blood pressure or get a chin up or get my first 10 chin ups or whatever it was. And so eventually the vast majority of my clientele are just people who just want to be healthier and be there for their family and friends and live a longer life. And that's been the transition.
Brock Ashby (00:44:42):
And where do you think most of those people need your help the most? What do they find the hardest to get started with? General health training. Because a lot of people in the world as we know, need to be healthier. Well, I shouldn't say, well, yeah, maybe need is the right word. They need to be healthier.
Jordan Syatt (00:45:04):
That's not shaming anybody. That's not mean they need it unless they want to die earlier or have a terrible quality of life. Yeah, they need
Brock Ashby (00:45:12):
It. Yeah. So where do you think the big struggles are? Obviously I think personally environment's a lot. I think nutritional availability is a lot, man. The amount of door buzzes that go off on the weekend here just from getting Uber Eats in this apartment building is crazy. It's like every 10 minutes someone's getting their Uber Eats delivered and it's like, this was not happening a while back, no,
Jordan Syatt (00:45:41):
Five years ago it wasn't happening. It's a brand new phenomenon. It's so different.
Brock Ashby (00:45:46):
So where do you think they can start or where do you think they need to start to improve their position that they're currently in?
Jordan Syatt (00:45:53):
So it really does depend on the person and it's sort of a, I hate the answer, it's annoying. It doesn't give any information, but it depends. So I would say for most people, I'll tell you what I used to say as a coach, and now what I've changed in the last couple of years, I used to say the vast majority of people need to start with their nutrition. And the reason is because especially if someone needs to lose weight for their health or whatever, nutrition is going to be the most important part of that. Nutrition really drives the car for fat loss. Nutrition is the driver's strength training and movement is the passenger.
(00:46:30):
But I changed that recently mainly because even though nutrition is probably what they need to focus on, most needs the most change. I realised that from a behavioural change perspective, it's much harder to change your nutrition than it is to change your movement. So for example, let's say someone needs to start losing weight. So they start making better nutritional choices and they have an apple and a donut in front of 'em and they know they can have the donut they want, they can fit it into their calories. But you know what? I need to make the choice that's going to be more nutritious right now, so I'm going to choose the apple instead. When they choose the apple instead of the donut, they do not immediately feel better. They do not immediately lose weight. They often feel deprived because they didn't take what they wanted.
(00:47:14):
And so oftentimes they don't feel good even though they made the decision that was right, they don't feel good about it and they don't see the results immediately and they get a little bit demotivated. Whereas let's say that same person, instead of starting with their nutrition, we say, all I want you to do is focus on getting 10 minutes of walking today. Just 10 minutes a day of walking, just getting you moving. Well, once you start moving, there is a physiological response that you actually feel better, your endorphins increase, you legitimately feel better because of that, it's an immediate response. I'm not saying you lose weight immediately, but physiologically you feel better, you are happier. And because you've done that work now in your mind, often it's more worth it to eat well because you've put in the work, and we see this with people all the time.
(00:47:59):
If they get a workout in, they eat better. If they don't get their workout in, they eat like, shit, I already ruined it, so why bother? So for me, after coaching for 15 years, I finally realised, I was like, I'm going to emphasise movement first, knowing that it might not be the thing that they need to work on most, but it will cause them to do the thing they need to work on most. As opposed to if we only focus on nutrition first, they might not actually do it. And I'll also say that was more of a fat loss related answer. Let's just talk about health, not necessarily fat loss, which they are intertwined, but they're not the same from a health perspective. I think movements by far are the most important. If we look at, it's so funny, we could look at the longest living populations in the world and we could look at Greeks, we could look at the Japanese, we can look at all these different populations in the world that live super long lives.
(00:48:57):
Their diets are vastly different, vastly different. They have so many different things from different places all over the world. But the common denominator is movement. It's walking the ones that actually made movement a regular part of their daily life regardless of their body fat, regardless of, obviously body fat played a role in it, but even those who had maybe had a slightly higher body fat, the ones that were active, were far healthier and likely to live longer than people who were not. So for me, it's no-brainer when we're talking about health movement walking, that comes first.
Brock Ashby (00:49:33):
Awesome, man. I've got a few questions that I want to, I'm kind of thrown at the end. I don't want to take too much of your time. I know we're coming up to about an hour.
Jordan Syatt (00:49:41):
No worries, man. No rush.
Brock Ashby (00:49:44):
So question number one is this is the better with Brock podcast, and ultimately I just created it just to help people become better people. Obviously it's very general, but it kind of opens me up to talk about many things. I didn't just want to talk about sets and reps and training volume because that's dry for a lot of people, even personal trainers. But what's one thing you do every day that helps you become better or make sure you have a better day, making sure you're heading in the right direction forever for wherever you want to go?
Jordan Syatt (00:50:13):
So it's changed over the years, but for the past, about two and a half years, it's been juujitsu, which I do five or six times a week right now. I'm just, I'm obsessed with it. I love it.
Brock Ashby (00:50:24):
That's a lot, man. That's a lot of work.
Jordan Syatt (00:50:26):
Yeah, I love it. It makes me super happy. When I first started Juujitsu about two and a half years ago. Oh, almost three years ago now. Holy shit. Yeah, wow. It was almost three years ago in August. So when I first started, my first coach said to me, he said, when you start your day trying to prevent someone from choking you out, every other obstacle you face that day seems relatively insignificant, still alive. You didn't die, right? And it's like in Juujitsu, it's a very vulnerable sport. You put yourself in very vulnerable positions where if someone wanted to break your arm, break your leg, choke you out, they could do it. But you're trusting them not to. And them similar to you, they're trusting that you won't choke them out. They're trusting you won't break their arm, break their wrist, break their leg, dah, all this other stuff. So every day you are put in a position in which you could die or be really, really seriously injured, but you didn't, you made it out, you're fine. So anything else you face that day, any problem at work, customer service issue, piece of shit online, whatever's going on, you're fine. He didn't die that morning. So for me, that's been really a fun way for me to look at it.
Brock Ashby (00:51:36):
And do you prefer gee or nogi?
Jordan Syatt (00:51:38):
I prefer, gee, when I first started, I preferred of the wrestling background, but the GI man, I love training. With the gi, it's so much more technical. With Nogi, it's a lot more scrambling. There's a lot more sweat and slippery, and you also have a lot more leg attacks, which for me, one of the main reasons I love Juujitsu and martial arts in general is I like to learn how to defend myself. And I feel like the ghee tends to be much more realistic in terms of a real fight. Unless you're fighting someone who you both have your shirts off or you're wearing a rash guard, but most people are wearing something usually if you're going to, so
Brock Ashby (00:52:20):
You can grab,
Jordan Syatt (00:52:21):
Yeah, you can grab it, and there are leg attacks with the gi, but it's mostly focused on the upper body. It's more shoulder locks, elbow locks, wrist locks, choking out armbar, stuff like that, which is in a real fight. You're not going to go for someone's heel, they'll fucking smash you. They will let you hit in the head, they'll punch you in the face, it's not going to work. So the purpose for especially all jujitsu, but especially in the gi, it's control leading to submission. You need to control them first. And so for me, I feel like I get the best aspects of that from the GI as opposed to nogi. And no gee's fun, but I really prefer the gee, what about you? What do you like better?
Brock Ashby (00:53:01):
I prefer, but this is because I'm super early into it and lacking technique. So I can rely on almost a little bit of, it's a weak spot for me, obviously, because it's like I can avoid things a bit easier. I can slip out of things, I can kind of scramble around, like you said. So I like it for the reasons that you don't like it. But I think when I get better and more technical and understand a bit more of how to use my body better, then I'll rely less on brute force and wrestling and just trying to throw people around and actually get a bit more technical. Where I'm at at the moment, I'm wiped out. I've got a couple stripes. I'm just really early into it. But I do enjoy the pace of nogi naturally. I'm more of a hyper dude, so I like using a lot of energy. Naturally. I've just got high levels of need, so I like running around and getting sweaty and wrestling and stuff. But yeah, I think later on I'll learn to appreciate the gee. Second question is, what is a book that has helped you probably the most to get better? Or one thing you've taken a book you've taken the most out of? I know you're an avid reader, you do audiobooks too. I know you read a lot of history as well. So
Jordan Syatt (00:54:16):
Yeah, man, lot of
Brock Ashby (00:54:17):
History. No books are off the table.
Jordan Syatt (00:54:20):
So there's a bunch. I mean, first I'll say, and people are going to think this is weird, but the entire, I'll give you several books. Number one is the entire Harry Potter series changed my life for real. And it's not even just because it's amazing and it's just that book. It's taught me how to use my imagination better. And I feel like imagination, it's not really encouraged much, especially it's not discouraged actively, but it's not encouraged, right? It's not like people don't use your imagination. But I feel like at least in the school system that I was brought up in, it was far less focused on imagination and much more just like, this is what we say, do it this way. This is how it's supposed to be done. It's like, well, there are many ways we could do things and we could use our imagination to figure out how we could get this way.
(00:55:10):
We could find so many different roads. And I feel like this is one of the reasons why we have so many issues in politics. And the world is one side has one way, the other side has one way, and it's like nothing else works. It's like, let's use our imagination. Let's try and figure this shit out. And so I love Harry Potter for if nothing else, it encouraged you to use your imagination and to think outside of just the one box that we've been told exist and realise there's many boxes inside, many boxes inside many boxes. And it's like we can figure out so many different things from exploring them. So I love that for that reason. There's also many archetypical characters within Harry Potter that relate to life in many ways. But I would say, man, I would say one of my favourite books for content creation was called Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath.
(00:56:01):
It's an amazing, amazing book for any content creator is looking to make better content that really hits home with people. I would say, man, from a history perspective, there are some really great ones, but one that I read recently that was phenomenal was called Operation Paperclip. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. It's a really good book. It can get a little bit dry and repetitive, but it's an amazing book about how after World War ii, and it's funny how people, when they hear World War ii, there's so many aspects to it. It's massive. Some people often, so I'm Jewish, so in the Jewish community, we hear World War II and we only think Holocaust, but it's like there were so many other aspects of World War ii. The whole Japanese were involved. It's not just Germany versus the United States or Germany versus the Jews.
(00:56:56):
There was so many other aspects of World War I. But Operation Paperclip was specifically about how after World War ii, there was a lot of tension between Russia and the United States leading to the Cold War. And the German scientists were at least 20 years ahead of every other scientist in the world. They were so smart, they had engineered some of the most genius things in the world and were so far ahead of America, of Russia, of anywhere else in the world. So there was a race between America, and this is all private. They didn't release this until recently. And the United States and the Russians, knowing there was huge tension between them, were both going into Germany after World War II to try and find Nazi scientists so that they could bring them back to their respective countries and use them for their knowledge. Now, the US alone, nevermind Russia, the US alone, brought over 1800 Nazi scientists from Germany to the United States with their families, gave them new names, new identities so that they could work in the United States to help them develop rockets, to help them develop weapons of mass destruction, to help them develop so many different scientific advances in the United States so that Russia couldn't use it.
(00:58:17):
Now, interestingly, the only reason the United States was able to land on the moon is due to Nazi scientists. And some of these scientists, they were not unaware of what was going on in Germany. Some of them were directly complicit in the mass murder of millions of people. They were directly involved in it. It's not like they were just, the whole following order is like, no, they were directly involved and they had ill intention. Not all 18 hundreds, some of them were actually good people and were trying to do the right thing, but some of them were just straight up evil. And the United States still took them just because they were like, listen, either the Russians are going to take them or what. And so there's so much debate around this, and this book was going over who was brought over, why they were brought over the debate, how we got them.
(00:59:04):
They were like, how did they avoid the Nuremberg trials? So much crazy shit. And as you're reading it, you have so much cognitive dissonance because on one hand you're like, this person was directly involved in the killing and murder and torture of so many people. But also we need them. We can't just, what do you do? And these are super hard decisions that head political figures have to make in the world. It's like, shit, what would you do in that situation? And one of the best analogies I've ever heard to explain it is, let's say, say, God forbid you're fighting in World War ii, you're on the front lines. You're fighting. Let's say we will use me as an example. I'm fighting, I'm a US soldier, and I kill a German soldier. I kill a Nazi. Well, that soldier dropped a gun with all of their ammunition.
(00:59:54):
Should I not use that tool because it belonged to a Nazi? Or should I use that tool to help me progress further? And so we could look at these Nazi scientists, their knowledge as a tool, should we use that in order to progress further or should we discard it entirely because of who it belonged to? And that's the question. So that for me was a really, really good book. Very interesting, very scary, very, I know a lot of people are anti conspiracy theories, but Operation Paperclip was at one point a conspiracy theory. People didn't think it was real. People thought they were just making it up. And it finally came out, and it was a very real secret government operation that these things happen all the time. And so I think some conspiracy theories are crazy, but also some of them are very real. And so it'll sort of shake you with what the government can and has done.
Brock Ashby (01:00:51):
So do you find reading history a bit more interesting than reading, say other books? Why does that fascinate you so much, obviously, is it just aligned with what you're interested in? Have you always been into history?
Jordan Syatt (01:01:06):
So I've always been into history. It's always been something I've been interested in. I think I've always been interested in people. I've always been interested in humans and their behaviour. And for me, I wrote a massive paper, probably I think one of my best pieces of writing ever in college, specifically on Nazis and my paper that I wrote. This is one of the, I was always interested in how could someone do such evil things and not just one person? Because one person you could chalk it up to, they're psychotic, not like psychotic in the way that people say nowadays, it's overused. I mean, legitimately a psychotic individual who suffers with psychosis and they need medication. There are people who are sick in the head and that's what happens. But how could you convince an entire nation of people to do these things? And so then I started researching the lives of the Ss, the evil, evil, evil, some of the worst of the Nazi death squad that did a lot of the killing.
(01:02:11):
And I started researching the lives of them. And I couldn't find anything online. I had to do the old school way, go to the library, dig up. And what I was doing is I was going through their journals. They have journals that these officers would keep in their houses, and they found them and they published them. And so I was going through trials and transcripts of trials to see what they were saying. And I just wanted to see what the life of these soldiers was, not as a soldier, but as a human. And the craziest thing to me was that these soldiers, the most evil people you can imagine, were just like you and me. They had a wife, they had kids, they would go to work, they would kill people. Then they'd go on vacation, they'd tuck their kids into bed, they would go to the grocery store with their family.
(01:02:59):
They were regular members of society. They had a break room in the Nazi death camps where they would hang out and joke around. Then they'd go out, they'd kill people. And it's one of those things I was like, how the fuck does that happen? And for me, I realised I was like, evil doesn't have a certain look. It's not like you could just point to someone and say like, oh, that's evil. Oftentimes we see people doing mass shootings or crazy things and all of their friends and family are like, I had no idea. They didn't seem like that kind of a person. It's like because evil doesn't have a look. And people can say and do things. And one of my favourite quotes, I forget the guy's name, it's a Russian name. I believe the line dividing good and evil runs through the heart of every single human being.
(01:03:50):
We all have good, and we all have evil within us. And so many things can impact that. And so I love humans. I love human behaviour. I love analysing why humans are doing certain things. And I think history is one of the easiest ways to study that because it's already there. It's all laid out. It's different. Right now with you and I talking, I might be able to analyse your behaviour. You might be able to analyse my behaviour, but we don't know what that will lead to. We can sort of just give our thoughts. But when we look at Hitler for example, we can trace his entire life from the moment he's born or from even before he's born, all of the things he went through and analyse, well, what happened here? What happened here? What happened here? Why did that happen? And so it's an easier way, I think, to analyse behaviour with history.
(01:04:34):
So looking at Hitler, looking at Mao, looking at Stalin, and for me, I've just always been interested in dictators and war and the most evil things. It's crazy for me, one of the first history classes I took was mediaeval history in high school. Bro, if you want to see some scary shit, look mediaeval history, that will blow you away. The stuff that happened in me, thank God we don't live then. Thank God we are not living in those times. Wow. It's unbelievable. The times that we live in now are the best. We are sitting in air conditioning. We're so comfortable we can get our Uber eats. Yes, there's terrible things going on in the world, but never has the world seen a better time than today. Today is the best day in the entire history of the world. Today is the best day by far. It is. And we're so lucky and blessed to be living now. I think it's another reason why I like history, like man, holy shit. People had it really tough and we've got it so easy.
Brock Ashby (01:05:38):
Yeah. So last question to wrap up, and you touched on a quote, a couple of good quotes actually just before, but what is a quote that has helped you become better? I love a good quote and I'm always seeking them out.
Jordan Syatt (01:05:57):
Yeah, man, there's a bunch, but I have one tattooed on my arm and it just says, he who hesitates is lost. And my mom said it to me when I was like eight or nine years old after a wrestling tournament. I had beat everybody in the tournament, made it to the finals, and I just made a stupid mistake in the finals and I hesitated and I lost when I should have won. It was a kid that I had beat before. I beat him after I should have fucking won. I'll never forget, I was sitting in the backseat of my mom's car. She looked in the rear view mirror and she just looks at me and she goes, he who hesitates is lost. That's all she needed to say. I was like, fuck. And so I got that tattooed on my arm and it applies to everything in my life, whether it's business, whether it's my relationship with my wife, whatever it is, he who hesitates is lost. And for all the politically correct people, he or she who hesitates whatever the fuck. But the original quote is just he who hesitates is lost. So it's really thinking about not sitting and dwelling and just do it. Just do it. If the longer you wait, the longer you hesitate, the more issues there's going to be.
Brock Ashby (01:07:01):
Yeah, that aligns with me massively. I think one reason why I've been able to even just make this job that I call a career now that didn't really exist. Obviously you did it way before me, but it's not a common job online personal trainer. Correct. Personal trainer is weird enough people look at you. But yeah, from Christchurch, I just left and then I just went here and then I went from Christchurch to Auckland to Gold Coast. I just flew all over. Just different places and you just have to go. And I feel like a lot of people just coming through now and even just that I've spoken to that want to run their own business, that want to even just be a personal trainer. What do I study? They're asking so many questions. I feel like the amount of information or maybe even just the way that people are kind of thinking now, I feel like there's a lot of hesitation. I'm not sure if you've experienced this too, but I have many conversations with people that want to start something that just don't. And I've come to being broke many times in my life being real. So I understand that some people don't want to do that, but I've always had the courage to just back myself. My dad's always been super supportive. Yeah, son, just do it. So I think that's definitely helped me as well. Parenting shapes you massively, but have you found that as well with people around you? Yeah,
Jordan Syatt (01:08:25):
With everything. There's another great book actually by the same authors of Made the Stick, it's called Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath. And I think when a lot of people here don't hesitate, they assume that means well just do it. Just do whatever it is you're saying you want to do. And in many cases I agree, but sometimes it's not about doing it, it's about deciding you're not going to do it. Just make the fucking decision. Whatever it is, don't be in this middle ground of well, should I or should I not? Should I choose make a decision? You're either going to do it or you're not going to do it. The issue is when you're just floating in between and you spend weeks and months and years floating and floating and floating, and then you're unhappy when it's like, if you just made it, yes, you know what?
(01:09:14):
I'm going to go for it. Or you know what? Fuck it not worth it. I'm not going to go for it. Whatever it is, just decide. Make the choice. And from there you can finally move on with whatever it is you're going to do. Either you're going to keep going, you're going to try and move forward with that, or you're going to move to something else. But when you're just floating in this like, oh, I don't know what to do, that's when there's problems and that's when you end up being unhappy and unsure and imposter syndrome and all of this stuff. Just go do something.
Brock Ashby (01:09:41):
Often the weight of indecisions much heavier than the weight of deciding yes or no.
Jordan Syatt (01:09:46):
Correct. A hundred percent. And if you're the person who's like, I don't know if I can say, I don't want to do this yet, then do it. If you're floating, you're like, well, I don't know if I can with finality say that I don't want to do it, then do it and see how it goes. And if it doesn't work,
Brock Ashby (01:10:07):
I think one thing that people, I guess underestimate is the power of just doing something and how that actually builds confidence. Regardless if you fail or not. I've failed many times, and I'm sure you've had your sheer amount of failures too, but that's often where you learn the most. I tried to build a personal training website a while back and lost a lot of money, but from the long story, but yeah, worked with the wrong people and now rebuilding something, it's like now, even though it was a costly mistake, you understand, I know what sort of people I want to work with. I know that this is where we're going, and I feel like that's undervalued now and people are too afraid to have those experiences.
Jordan Syatt (01:10:56):
I've failed way more than I've succeeded. If we could make a handwritten list of my total failures versus my total successes, the failures, it would fill so many libraries and the successes might fill a few pages of one book, but the failures would be tonnes of university sized libraries. And people really don't understand that. It's like it's easier to look at what someone else has done and only look at what they've done well and not see what they've failed at. But with yourself, it's the opposite with yourself. You always look at what you've failed and not at what you've succeeded, so you have to flip it and you really have to focus on just go and know that you will fail. But those failures will lead to successes as long as you don't quit.
Brock Ashby (01:11:45):
Yeah, I think that, yeah, that's so true, man. Failure is the key just to getting better. Alright, man, well I'll wrap it there. I appreciate your time. I had a few other things I wanted to talk about, but mate, I appreciate your time. I hope that the baby site comes soon. I know that it's expected very soon. I've been following your stories.
Jordan Syatt (01:12:10):
Thank you, brother. Thank you so much. Listen man, this has been great. I'll come on anytime and I promise I'll do better than with the scheduling. But thank you. This has been great, man. You're an awesome host and keep up the amazing work
Brock Ashby (01:12:22):
And thank you very much, man. I appreciate your time. Of course.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
What's up guys? This is Brock here. Welcome to episode number 19 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with me, huddle Gregory, longtime friend of mine. We've been friends since, I think, man, 14 years old, so that's like 14 years. Yeah. So we're super good mates. He recently came over for my wedding. Appreciate you flying over, man.
Miharo Gregory (00:25):
Of course.
Brock Ashby (00:26):
Yeah. And while he's, right now he's in, I would say the biggest band in New Zealand at the moment, playing keys for LAB, cleaned up the Alor Music Awards and just absolutely smashing the charts as well in the air. Huge YY, huge. And the albums just doing awesome. So I wanted to get him on to, I guess, chat about what a type being in one of the biggest band in New Zealand. So yeah, man. Welcome to the podcast. Awesome to have you on. I'd love to, I guess start off with how you maybe got into music and ended up where you are in LEB, because I know personally you've been in a few bands and worked your way up. But yeah, what's that whole process and give yourself a bit of an introduction, maybe better than mine.
Miharo Gregory (01:25):
No, that was good. Hey, bro, thanks for having me. And yeah, 14 years, eh, that's crazy.
Brock Ashby (01:32):
Yeah, man.
Miharo Gregory (01:33):
Went through puberty together.
Brock Ashby (01:35):
I'm still going through it.
Miharo Gregory (01:36):
Going through it. Yeah. Well, way back when I was young, my parents signed me up to keyboard lessons when I was five or six. So I kind of learned all the basics, but I didn't really get into playing music until high school, I guess. I dunno if everyone knows. You used to play music.
Brock Ashby (02:02):
Yeah. Just not as good as you.
Miharo Gregory (02:05):
Yeah. We had a cool crew that we all started jamming together, and that probably inspired me to pick it up again and take it a bit more serious, start writing songs. So much so that I went and studied it, studied music and audio engineering down south in New Zealand. And from there just joined bands, joined bands and gig people. Did all sorts of gigs.
Brock Ashby (02:37):
Yeah,
Miharo Gregory (02:39):
Yeah. Slowly worked my way up to LAB, I guess.
Brock Ashby (02:43):
Yeah. So, man, I remember being at your house and you playing around on Fruit Loops. Is it Fruit Loops?
Miharo Gregory (02:49):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (02:50):
And we used to record music and sing and stuff and make songs
Miharo Gregory (02:56):
Number one hits.
Brock Ashby (02:57):
Yeah, make those number one hits that we'll release later. But yeah. So what did that look like? I know as a musician, when I was trying to make it and trying to make a name for myself when I was singing and playing guitar, I studied jazz guitar, but never got amazing. But man, you do some gigs where there's two people or, well, I did. I did anyway. And they're your mates that you've invited, but yeah. What sort of gigs did you have to do to persevere to get to where you are?
Miharo Gregory (03:37):
Yeah, I remember several gigs. Sometimes there's literally no one there. You can just see the bar staff and the bouncer awkward eye contact with the bouncer. Just like it's pretty much just a rehearsal in a venue and you're like, oh man,
Brock Ashby (03:52):
I'm getting paid for this.
Miharo Gregory (03:54):
Yeah, yeah. You pay for it and then the bar manager's hitting you up. I'm like, yeah, yeah, a hundred people show up, but no one shows up.
(04:07):
But yeah, it started off with, I don't know, kind of doing anything you can playing for exposure or donations, but the more you do it, I think it's the best way. The more you do it, the better experience you have, the more experience you have. And I think you see a lot of artists nowadays who maybe get famous with a song on the radio or TikTok and that, and they're just catapulted to a level of fame, and their first performances are in front of big crowds, and it's just not, you can tell they're not very confident maybe. So starting from the bottom and working your way up is the way to go. And then I moved to Wellington in New Zealand and got into playing with other bands, meeting other musicians, kind of networking and getting into the session musician scene. So I'd get contacted by a record label and go in and just play keys for someone for an artist. And slowly got to know different people who eventually linked me to LAB. And I did a few sessions with them, and by the time the next album came around, they asked me to join. So that's how it went, really.
Brock Ashby (05:41):
So before you were actually in the band, were you just playing keys for them as a session musician? So it wasn't like LAB plus me huddle or anything. It was just like LAB. But you were the keys, but not being acknowledged type of thing as a band member.
Miharo Gregory (05:54):
Yeah. Yeah. They already have a keyboardist, but he plays rhythm guitar as well. So live, he had to juggle keys and guitar and singing. So on the second album, I'm in the credits, but I'm not a member.
Brock Ashby (06:12):
Yeah. So where do you think you started getting traction with your music? Because obviously when you start doing sessions and then LEB invite you on, that took time as you see it, but where did you think this is getting better, and was there any point as well where you were like, oh, I don't know if I want to keep pushing where there's some, I don't know, a struggle where you're like, you're doing a gig and there's two people there. You're like, fuck, why am I doing this even though I'm still not in music? But I remember those gigs. Yeah, I remember I lived in Gold Coast and I used to do gigs. So I would do PT from 4:45 AM till 12:00 PM and then I'd have three hour gap and get ready for a gig, and then I'd gig from, I don't know, six or four till midnight sometimes and just do, and that was my day. But I'll do gigs at this burger stock, this burger store hit. He was Maori, and he was like, oh, yeah, you can come play and pay me, and all this kind of stuff. But it was like sometimes no one was there. I'd literally ask the waiters, do you want to hear a song? What song do you want? No one here. Was there any points where you really struggled to keep pushing? And when was that kind of breaking point where you're like, no, I'm going to really keep smashing it?
Miharo Gregory (07:31):
Yeah, definitely. There was a few years I used to work at a cafe as well to start, I don't know, six I think it was, and then go till four and then have enough time to get ready for a gig in the evening. And there was a band, I had my own band that I was kind of the director of, I guess, that I was trying to make it Nation. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (07:55):
Nation. Yeah, I was going to
Miharo Gregory (07:56):
Say. But yeah, I learned a lot from that experience. I don't think anyone can ever be, if it's your vision, no one else is going to be as committed as you, if you know what I mean. You can try and spread it out and make it a group thing, but in the end, it's kind of your vision to look after. So yeah, I had that and that did well. But sometimes it was just a struggle playing for a few people, or you spend a lot of money recording songs and then going on tour. Sometimes the band feels like you're just dragging them along. But so that got kind of hard, and it's not like music is making you a lot of money in the early stages, so leaving away. But yeah, it kind of all happened at once, which I think is a thing. You're just working away. And then opportunities come out of opportunities. So we took a gig that cost us money, but I knew it would be a cool experience. It flew down and played with fu, and through that, the
Brock Ashby (09:23):
OG Man, the og
Miharo Gregory (09:24):
Og, which is just an awesome gig in itself. It's crazy. We also played with Lawton Kura, who's sung for CO and through meeting them. Yeah, I got a lot of opportunities. I got along with Lawton who was producing an album for Rio Hall, another singer, and I got on that. And then other big bands were kind of interested in taking me on tour and that. But yeah, LAB snatched me, and yeah, if I could have picked a band, it would've been LAB.
Brock Ashby (10:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with that, with totally agree with you, you just work away, but you feel like looking back at it, it was all building, but at the time you feel like it's not adding to anything. It's just not happening. And then it just explodes. I think that's how some people get confused with overnight success. People often working their ass off, but they're not seen, and then they do one thing, but it's not that one thing. It's the momentum of things that they've been working on for that entire time.
Miharo Gregory (10:40):
So that one thing wouldn't have happened without all that.
Brock Ashby (10:44):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the hard thing when you see things from afar. That's why I like having conversations like this, because people that don't know you, or maybe were just high school friends with you, they're like, oh, me huddles just exploded. And now he's in New Zealand's biggest band, and they're winning awards and stuff, but you were out there doing gigs to people or to invisible people that weren't there, and you were doing session and you were trying to decide where to go and stuff like that. That's what happens. I'm a big fan of that. You just put your head down and work, and then opportunities will come.
Miharo Gregory (11:20):
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Just saying yes to pretty much anything. And then over time, you can slowly narrow it down, I guess.
Brock Ashby (11:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I kind of put it down to when I first started personal training, I would say yes to anyone. I would train everyone and anyone, because you can't get selective with who you work with. A lot of people would pride themselves, oh, I just work with CEOs and high net worth individuals or professional athletes and all that kind of stuff. And I got to a point where that was who I trained, but at the start, I trained anyone. I was like, yep, I'll take you. I'll take you and I'll take you and your friend. And then as you get better, and as you get experienced, you get used to what you're good at and you find things out, or you discover who you click with and what you sort of like. And with you, it'll be like, oh, this is the genre of music I like. Maybe you're doing gigs and you're just doing everything and anything covers, maybe then you're like, oh, but I actually love doing originals, so I don't want to play other people's music. But you have to discover that and go through that process.
Miharo Gregory (12:23):
Yeah, that's totally it.
Brock Ashby (12:26):
Yeah,
Miharo Gregory (12:28):
You can't just, probably can't just start out saying, I'm going to train top athletes. You have to work your way up.
Brock Ashby (12:38):
Yeah. You have to do your reps
Miharo Gregory (12:39):
Figure everything out. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (12:41):
Yeah. I think that's social media as well. Even just body transformations. People will see this shredded dude and this buff guy and be like, oh, I want to look like him. But it's like, man, he's trained for 10 years. He knows everything back to front and what to eat, and his lifestyle is all in check. It doesn't happen overnight. Even with LAB before you joined, I'm not sure if they got heaps of awards previously that they may have, but you guys have put out a lot of albums.
Miharo Gregory (13:14):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (13:17):
Sorry, you go.
Miharo Gregory (13:18):
Yeah, it was an album a year for five years, which has been so far. And I started helping out on the second album. So before I joined, they'd released the album, and then two years before that, they'd been gigging and writing. So yeah, they'd been working hard as well. And then before that, they'd been in other successful bands. So all that knowledge and experience comes into play, which helped LAB to move up so fast as well.
Brock Ashby (13:52):
So what album do you think it took to really kick off? Were they all doing well as well as they are now, or do you think it's been the last two, or just I'm personally aware of the last two that have been since you've been in it, and I've been really paying attention and listening.
Miharo Gregory (14:12):
Yeah, when I joined, no,
Brock Ashby (14:15):
They've only taken off when I joined. That's the answer.
Miharo Gregory (14:19):
I think one and two did well, but it wasn't too number three with the song in the air that hit number one in New Zealand. So that really, that's huge. Skyrocketed everything. And then people go back and discover the first two albums.
Brock Ashby (14:37):
Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (14:39):
And once you're at that level, then everything else does better.
Brock Ashby (14:44):
Yeah. Yeah. I love in India, I remember when I was at my brother's Bucks, because over Australia, I don't listen to much music, especially radio and stuff, just listen to Spotify and that. But they were all playing it on the Instagram stories, posting summer at the beach, the Sun, everyone. That was the song that was on, well, on the radio and then on everyone's social media as well. It was huge.
Miharo Gregory (15:09):
Yeah, it's crazy. It's weird. It was weird hearing it. I'd walk into the warehouse and just hear it playing. It's me.
Brock Ashby (15:19):
Yeah. Has that been your biggest song so far?
Miharo Gregory (15:26):
I think so. Yeah. It'd be between that and why or why.
Brock Ashby (15:29):
Yeah, because they both hit number one.
Miharo Gregory (15:33):
Yeah, I know why did get hit number one in Hawaii as well.
Brock Ashby (15:38):
Yeah. Nice.
Miharo Gregory (15:42):
But yeah, one of those two.
Brock Ashby (15:43):
So what other countries is LEB popping? I know that you guys did a tour over here in Australia, and you've been doing some stuff in New Zealand too, but are there any other areas that you guys are getting played?
Miharo Gregory (15:58):
Yeah, definitely smaller radio stations in the UK and America. But yeah, I think we want to kind of make Australia like New Zealand, if you know what I mean. Yeah. So we've done well in New Zealand, want to do well in Oz and then use that as a springboard to hit Europe or America. But seeds are already being planted over there.
Brock Ashby (16:27):
And what's the songwriting process? I know that everyone does it differently. Some people start with an idea, start with a quote, or start with a melody or start with an instrumental. How does it all work? It's quite interesting, especially you guys got so many band members, it must be a handful to also juggle everyone's opinion and be like, yeah, that's not the best idea. Let's do this. Or it must get a bit awkward.
Miharo Gregory (16:53):
Well, Brad, who's the drummer, he kind of started LAB. It was his vision, I guess, and he is the producer or the person that has the final say, which I think you need someone who's going to, there's five of us, so you need someone to say yes or no. So we'll just be sitting in the studio. We all record in Wellington, like a week at a time. They all come down and we just sleep in the studio on the floor.
Brock Ashby (17:29):
That sounds awesome.
Miharo Gregory (17:30):
Yeah. So the recording desk is pretty much going 22 hours a day, if you know what I
Brock Ashby (17:36):
Mean. Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (17:38):
People will sleep and take shifts and do different bits and pieces, but yeah, we'll either just sit there jamming away and Brad will say, oh, that's cool. Let's work on that. Or bring a preexisting idea. I'll have a bunch of, at the moment, I'm just trying to come up with a bunch of chords and ideas for the next time we're in the studio. So yeah, we just flesh them out. And it's up to Brad, but everyone contributes, of course. But yeah, he steers the ship and is the painter using us as brushes kind of
Brock Ashby (18:17):
Thing. So what's the process for you to create, because pretty much when you think about it, you're making the tunes of the next LEB album that's going to come out when you're just fleshing out these ideas. Some of them won't make it, or most of them won't make it, but a handful will make it onto the next album. How do you start that?
Miharo Gregory (18:36):
Yeah, I mean, it's cool. We are not trying to write a hit, if you know what I mean. I think then it gets a bit like, I don't know, disingenuous.
Brock Ashby (18:54):
Yeah, obvious.
Miharo Gregory (18:56):
Yeah. Yeah, obvious. So yeah, we just write songs that we like or resonate with us, and that is our audience who like that too. And it's all about the, what do you call it? The, I dunno, the interactivity, the chemistry that all the band members have that make the song. So even a little addition by someone could be a big difference in the song.
Brock Ashby (19:26):
Is there any point where you are proud of, most proud of that's on the album? Are there any bits? I can't remember the song, but there was a solo that I sent you, and I was like, man, I love this from you. It is like a piano solo. And then the guitar copies it. Oh,
Miharo Gregory (19:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Mr. Riga.
Brock Ashby (19:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The instrumental for me, that was my favourite. I was like, man, that's awesome. Just from you. But are there any other parts, and I suppose only the true LAB fans will know, but any other songs where you're like, oh, this is it.
Miharo Gregory (20:00):
There's a song on the fourth album called Natural. Do you
Brock Ashby (20:03):
Know that one?
Miharo Gregory (20:04):
Yeah. Yeah. I wrote that in this room pretty much over the first lockdown that we hit. And I remember writing it and the words as well, and I was showing the boys and Brad, I was like, man, that'd be a cool instrumental. And I was like, oh, I have got lyrics to it. And so I sung the words, and then he's like, oh man. And it ended up being, there's two versions of it on the album. The acoustic
Brock Ashby (20:35):
One?
Miharo Gregory (20:35):
Yeah, acoustic instrumental version, and then the full on song. So I was like, that's pretty cool. I didn't even think to have both. I was just like, damn, the lyrics are going to miss out, or The cool vibe is going to miss out. But yeah, pretty proud to have that on that album. I think it got the number five in the charts or something.
Brock Ashby (20:56):
The acoustic version, or the one where you're singing in the woods?
Miharo Gregory (20:59):
Yeah, the full on singing one.
Brock Ashby (21:02):
So how does that go down when you perform? Do you do that one on tour? Because for instrumental, people will jam, but people love singing.
Miharo Gregory (21:15):
Yeah, we kind of do this cool when we play that song. It's a cool little intro that I play. I guess that's the acoustic version. And we have a good friend of ours, Louisa Williamson. She's an amazing saxophonist. She kind of comes out and shreds the solo before we go into the full band version. So it's a cool little moment. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (21:38):
Nice. So what's it like being on tour with the band?
Miharo Gregory (21:45):
Yeah, with this band, it's pretty me. Previous tour, it's good because previous tours where I've had to hit up my aunties and that to sleep on their floor, now I can invite them, give them free tickets to,
Brock Ashby (22:03):
It's a different position.
Miharo Gregory (22:06):
They're always like, do you need a place to stay? I'm like, nah,
Brock Ashby (22:09):
Nah, here's some tickets.
Miharo Gregory (22:13):
But yeah, it's pretty cool with this band. We just spent a month in Oz, or you were on honeymoon, so missed out. But yeah, it's cool hotels, and the key thing is probably just keeping healthy or keeping active because it's easy. This band's pretty good. Everyone's active and healthy into fitness, but a lot of bands just can get to be ruckus onto it. So keeping that in check. And then, yeah, like Brad, the drummer, he's also a Brazilian Jiujitsu black belt.
Brock Ashby (22:56):
Yeah, I saw you guys doing roles in the hotel in Adelaide, was it in Adelaide? Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (23:01):
Yeah, Adelaide,
Brock Ashby (23:02):
Somewhere.
Miharo Gregory (23:03):
Brisbane. We went to a few gyms as well. So yeah, he's awesome to have around. He's similar to yourself, I reckon, and just always working away, keeping busy at getting better and stuff.
Brock Ashby (23:20):
So what do you guys do to stay fit? Because yeah, I know a lot of, well, even musicians in general, I would say are not the healthiest people. There's quite a lot of overweight musicians, especially Mus, that aren't in the face of being the lead singers usually lead singers. And I'm not trying to say if a lead singer's overweight, that means they can't be a lead singer. But in general, for musicians, even, I know back in Christchurch, a lot of them, they just get comfy and they're like, oh, well, I just play music, so I don't really need to look after my health or I'm on the spotlight. So being overweight is all good for them. And you're up late, you're just playing your instruments, so you're not really moving, you're sitting down or just standing up stationary. What do you guys do to stay active?
Miharo Gregory (24:10):
Everyone has their own thing. Like Joel, the singer, he hits the gym all the time, big walks, big runs, that kind of thing. S into Waka.
Brock Ashby (24:23):
Oh
Miharo Gregory (24:23):
Yeah, Olo canoeing kind of thing. Yeah, mountain biking is pretty active. And then, yeah, Stu, Brad and myself all do,
Brock Ashby (24:35):
So do you guys roll together when you're,
Miharo Gregory (24:38):
Yeah, which is pretty handy.
Brock Ashby (24:41):
So what's Stu? Is he, what belt? He just so
Miharo Gregory (24:46):
Blue, blue belt. Okay. White belt. Stu ISS blue belt, and Brad's second degree black belt or something.
Brock Ashby (24:52):
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw him posting his kids doing. Yeah. That's good, man. So does he almost run a class for you guys and teach you stuff, or do you just guys do open mat roles?
Miharo Gregory (25:07):
Yeah, he teaches us stuff. He does, our touring party is probably about 15 people.
Brock Ashby (25:15):
Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (25:16):
So yeah, he'll message everyone 7:00 AM boxer class or gym session.
Brock Ashby (25:24):
Right. So he's like the pt?
Miharo Gregory (25:26):
Yeah. He owns a gym back in.
Brock Ashby (25:30):
Oh, true.
Miharo Gregory (25:31):
Yeah. It used to be a gym with weights and stuff, but now he's just narrowed it down to BJJ.
Brock Ashby (25:38):
Cool. Yeah. So actually we were talking about this, talking about BJJ because it's hard to talk about it because we're both white belts. So we're both pretty average in terms of when you roll with a black belt, you just get your ass handed to and you just feel like you're achieving nothing. But one thing I always say about Jiujitsu is I just love it in terms of how humble it keeps you in terms of leaving your ego at the door. Because one thing that's awesome is it never, well, you never finish. You're always working on processes or if you want to, this word's a bit cheesy, but you are focusing on the journey and how to get better. Not really just an outcome. Say if you just want to, I want a six pack, it's just a six pack, but it doesn't really require any skill to get there. So I love that focus on actually just becoming better and focusing on what you're doing and not just what, if that makes sense. What do you love about it? Why are you still hooked?
Miharo Gregory (26:45):
Yeah. I think it is that to become a blue belt, say you actually need to know a bunch of stuff, and it's having the blue belt is evidence that you've progressed and gotten better at all these things. So it's like a good analogy for life, I guess. Jujitsu just sticking at stuff and getting better. Yeah, I think I just like the progress.
Brock Ashby (27:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. You go.
Miharo Gregory (27:19):
Yeah, you can definitely tell from getting chugged out every time to getting chugged out less
Brock Ashby (27:26):
Every second time.
Miharo Gregory (27:30):
Working on my tapping, getting,
Brock Ashby (27:35):
Yeah. I think, yeah, that's one thing that I love as well, just while obviously what I was saying before, just focusing on the journey. But yeah, it's easy to see progress in terms of maybe how much you tap or you learn new submissions or you're learning, I don't know this or that. It's not necessarily about the belt. It's more so just about is a reflection like you're saying, of what, but I think it's also a reflection of just how much time you put in. And I think that's one of the great metaphors that you're saying that's just life. It's like just the more you do something, the better you get at it.
(28:15):
It's a basic thing. And that's coming back to being that overnight success. It's like people aren't overnight successes. They're spending time doing their thing. Maybe you're just not seeing it, or it's in their room at night when no one's watching, but they're putting in work. And it shifts your focus in other areas of life as well. Maybe with your music now, you keep chipping away and you focus on learning new things or doing extra song ideas instead of just rocking up to a concert and just being like, oh, it's just about performing. It's like, no, it's about what you do before the performances and the stuff you're looking at for the future.
Miharo Gregory (28:50):
Yeah, definitely. It's also just another practising piano or guitars. So concentrated a little area, if you know what I mean. It's just your fingers moving. So it's like a good outlet. Your whole body's being used and takes your mind off that you can come back fresh to whatever you are working on.
Brock Ashby (29:10):
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I think personally with going to the gym, it's really good for applying what I learn in the gym, because often when you're training, you're just training to get strong and that's it, or look better and have bigger muscles and maybe have lower body fat or whatever you're chasing. But that's really all it is. It's quite one dimensional. But then when you add in a sport or jiujitsu, you're like, man, I can actually see what I can do with this strength and with this size because it helps me on the mats even I still suck, but I can get out of things a bit better or move a bit quicker, or I can explode doing a hip escapee, I can get out quite good because I have strength and other people can't get moves on me just because I can move my arms. So it helps a lot
Miharo Gregory (30:02):
Putting stuff to you.
Brock Ashby (30:03):
Yeah, I think I'm such a big advocate for that. That's why I like Brazilian. Well, I encourage people to do it as well, because it's like, yeah, you are focusing on what you can do as opposed to just what you look like. Because there's a point where you get to where you're happy with your body, and then you go, well, now what? Yeah, do you just get worse and then just go back to the same spot you're at? Or do you just keep getting leaner? And then you get caught in this point where you're just getting leaner and leaner and leaner and leaner and just starving yourself more and more and more and more. And then just like, yeah, life doesn't become fun, but when you actually focus on what you're doing, it's much more fulfilling because you're like, oh, instead of just having a photo and saying, oh, this is what my abs look like, you can actually look yourself at a video of you rolling and going, oh, look at what I did.
Miharo Gregory (30:50):
Yeah, that's true.
Brock Ashby (30:55):
Yeah. So actually, just one more question on Juujitsu. I know you said we wouldn't go there, but are you GI or Nogi? What do you like?
Miharo Gregory (31:06):
Man, I like both. Most of the classes are gi, but yeah, there's rolling. There's one class and then rolling on Saturday, which is Nogi. So I think I prefer Nogi, but Gee is easier at the most. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (31:28):
Because you can hold people and play,
Miharo Gregory (31:30):
Get more submissions or Yeah, I don't know. It's easier to hold people down.
Brock Ashby (31:35):
Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (31:36):
But yeah, I'm keen to get into Nogi more, more realistic, right.
Brock Ashby (31:42):
Yeah. I've been doing Nogi a lot more. I kind of do it on a two to one ratio, two nogi and one gee, I just feel like, well, I think it's easy. I can slip out of things better. Just you get so sweaty, man. When I first started, I didn't realise how sweaty you actually get, but you can slip out of things easier. So I liked it for that reason because I could pull my arm out if I was getting tapped or arm out or whatever. And then with gh, I can't pull myself out. So just lying there all day, getting dominated.
Miharo Gregory (32:11):
It's a lot slower. Slower,
Brock Ashby (32:12):
Yeah, slower. I think it's more of a, I've heard people say, no, GI is the young man's game, and then when you get less like a spring chicken, you just chill out and do gi.
Miharo Gregory (32:22):
Yeah. And with gi, I noticed holding death, gripping the gi, my hands got pretty sore.
Brock Ashby (32:31):
Yeah.
Miharo Gregory (32:32):
Which isn't great for,
Brock Ashby (32:36):
Especially if that's how you're trying to play with a cast on.
Miharo Gregory (32:41):
So taking it easy on the gis good for that as well.
Brock Ashby (32:44):
Yeah, I get really So elbows and forearms. Yeah, I think it's from gi gripping. I think it's the way I grip. It's not really my hands. It's more so my elbows and my forearms, or I'm just trying to frame too much. I'm not sure what it is, but I just get really, and it affects me in the gym. I can't bench press. I can't do certain things because my elbow's too sore. I think it's just because I panic for dear life. I'm trying to squeeze so tight. Some of the professors just breathe, man. I think that's another, I guess metaphor that we learned from jujitsu is trying to be calm in stressful situations or life and death situations, if you want to put it like that. If you don't tap, you're going to die, but you almost have to just remain calm in positions where you're in serious danger and in life. It can help you navigate through life with a cooler head.
Miharo Gregory (33:39):
Yeah, because the only way, you can't just panic out of it. You have to think
Brock Ashby (33:45):
Exactly. You have to plan your exit whilst you are getting choked. So what's next for LAB and your journey? Yeah, you guys just came to Aussie. I sadly missed you, but what's next?
Miharo Gregory (34:05):
Yeah, just went to Aussie. We've got this month off May kind of off, but we're back in the studio in June. We've done an album a year for five years. I don't think we're going to try and finish a sixth one this year. Just let the five breathe for a bit. But yeah, just keep riding and ticking away, and a little New Zealand winter tour coming up as well. So
Brock Ashby (34:30):
Cool
Miharo Gregory (34:31):
Ing for those. And then it'll probably be summer again.
Brock Ashby (34:35):
So when's the next time you're coming back over to Australia?
Miharo Gregory (34:39):
Yeah, early next year. I think they're still booking things in, but hopefully our own tour around. Yeah, early next year.
Brock Ashby (34:49):
Awesome. And lastly, before we wrap up with the last kind of three questions, I've got a question in what you think makes a good song, what do you think you're like, oh, that's a good song?
Miharo Gregory (35:07):
I think I'm kind of a lyrics person, so I think a good story always helps. But yeah, just the groove. I'm a band guy, I guess. So an actual band playing together where you can kind of hear the musicianship as opposed to just triggers and that, which is sometimes awesome. But yeah, I just love the little nuances and thing of a real band playing a good message, and it just has to be catchy, I guess. Say Souly.
Brock Ashby (35:51):
So what would be, okay, two questions on the back of that. Your favourite artist slash band, and then favourite song of all time. I know this is so hard, it's asking your parent to pick their favourite child, but what would be favourite band or artist and a favourite song on the back of it?
Miharo Gregory (36:11):
Man, I don't know if I could actually pick a favourite song, just because if you like,
Brock Ashby (36:20):
Well, let's go top three then. If they're out or top five, if you could rattle them up.
Miharo Gregory (36:27):
But artists, yeah, I don't know. I like a range of artists. Say I went through a big period of listening to Muse, if you know the Band Muse?
Brock Ashby (36:36):
Yeah, they, they're huge. Like the rock band.
Miharo Gregory (36:39):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (36:40):
But it's like alternative rock. They're quite
Miharo Gregory (36:42):
Alternative rock. But then, I don't know, DeAngelo and that whole world of sound, and then heaps of Kiwi acts, Hey, it's a band called Unknown Mortal Orchestra, who are real cool Fu Shapeshifter at Freddy's. I don't know, I could keep going, but to pick a song would be like
Brock Ashby (37:13):
What? Top three? Top five,
Miharo Gregory (37:14):
Top three, man. It definitely goes through periods. I'd say at the moment, I've been listening to a lot of old school stuff, like Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston and stuff.
Brock Ashby (37:38):
Yeah, right.
Miharo Gregory (37:39):
Which is, I dunno, it's cool. It's like throwing things back. But if I just picked a song from the artist I was saying, I'd say Knights of Edia by Muse. It's a classic. I'll just say that one.
Brock Ashby (38:02):
Yeah. Okay. Okay. We'll go with that. I actually don't know, but I'll have to check it out after this. So to wrap with the last three questions, this podcast is about why it's called Better with Brock. I wanted to create something where it's not just about fitness and becoming better by being stronger or being leaner or being more muscular, but being better as an overall person. So these last three, I guess wrap up or summarise the podcast. The first one is, is there something you do every day to make yourself better?
Miharo Gregory (38:37):
Yeah. I mean, I have a diary. I've been doing a diary for a while,
Brock Ashby (38:42):
Like a journal or a schedule or
Miharo Gregory (38:45):
Kind of like a journal and a schedule. So at night I'll kind of summarise my day, I guess, but say what I'm going to do the next day. I've got a calendar as well where I kind of plan out what I'm up to for the week, but just writing it down really helps me. I go to sleep thinking about it, you know what I mean? And getting up. I just love crossing things out or
Brock Ashby (39:17):
No better feeling.
Miharo Gregory (39:18):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (39:19):
No better feeling.
Miharo Gregory (39:20):
I'll do things just to
Brock Ashby (39:22):
Me too. I'll even write things, do the washing and just to get off,
Miharo Gregory (39:29):
Take shoes off
Brock Ashby (39:31):
Breakfast, nailing it. I'm killing it. Successful.
Miharo Gregory (39:36):
Yeah. So I don't know. I think that definitely helps. And all the things I write on there, obviously things to make me better. So by doing that, it helps me get better.
Brock Ashby (39:49):
So I got a question for you. Literally looking at the whiteboard in front of me, and it has things that are crossed off and it has things a lot mostly that aren't, what do you do when you're not ticking things off?
Miharo Gregory (40:01):
Yeah, that's a tricky one, I guess. But I think, yeah, starting small, just riding. Do the washing or something can get you rolling or can get me rolling anyway, make your bed or something. And then once you've done two you're like, oh man, I want to keep going. Go to the gym or do whatever you're supposed to do helps me.
Brock Ashby (40:27):
Sorry, you
Miharo Gregory (40:28):
A quote that you put up on Instagram once or something was, what was it? It was like motivation comes after the action or something like that.
Brock Ashby (40:41):
Yeah, remember
Miharo Gregory (40:42):
That?
Brock Ashby (40:42):
Yeah. Yeah. I talk about it a lot. I'm not sure what the exact quote is, but there's actually, I was talking about this on an earlier podcast today. There's action results and then motivation. But action is the first thing. It's not the other way around.
Miharo Gregory (41:00):
So you can gain motivation by doing the action
Brock Ashby (41:05):
As well, but people think it's, you need motivation to take action, but that's not how it works. You can't rely on that because it's not there all the time,
Miharo Gregory (41:19):
Which I guess all that other stuff comes in discipline and that. But just doing a little bit of something can give you a little bit of motivation.
Brock Ashby (41:28):
It gives you that hit of oh, results, and then, oh, now I'm motivated. So let's do more.
(41:33):
So when you're making this, do you just do a couple of small things or do you blot it all out? I do everything I want to do and just put it all down there. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and almost get scared and not do many, but sometimes I just absolutely kill it. But sometimes I'll just do a few. I know that's what I'm going to do realistically, but sometimes I'll put too much knowing that I won't do it. But having it up there kind of pushes me at the same time. It's a bit weird, but what's your strategy? Because I know this will help a lot of people because a lot of people like the same feeling because when you tick things off, you do get a dopamine hit and it makes you feel good. And I know a lot of people do this, so yeah. What's your strategy to what you put down on the list?
Miharo Gregory (42:18):
Yeah, I'm the same. I just kind of write it all out and then sometimes it's too much and I'll kind of put ones I can do tomorrow or something. But yeah, no specific order, write it all out and then just start with some little ones or save some little ones for tomorrow.
Brock Ashby (42:38):
Yeah. Yeah. So how about big goals? Big, big goals, not things you do day to day, but big things you want to achieve. Let's say you want LAB to be the number one band in the world. Say you have a goal like that, or you want to achieve, I want to make this much money in a year or whatever, not that it has to be there, or I want to be a black belt. Where do you put these big goals that are big things that don't just happen the next day?
Miharo Gregory (43:08):
Day? Yeah. Well, I think at the moment, thankfully all those big goals, I'm heading towards 'em, if you know what I mean. They line up with what I'm doing. So every little goal I write is helping me towards that end goal. I've got them written down, but I think it's good to have them there, write them down or whatever, and then almost write them down, plan out some steps, and then almost forget about the end picture and just put your head down, if that makes sense.
Brock Ashby (43:44):
But it's still important to have them though, or us. I feel like a lot of people don't really have those big goals and they just make all these little steps, but it's kind of putting every little step of a ladder on the wrong wall because you're not going the right way.
Miharo Gregory (43:58):
Yeah, that's true.
Brock Ashby (43:59):
So I was wondering just where you store them, because I'm the same. I have big goals and I'm heading towards them. But yeah, I have a folder on my phone or on my laptop just on notes that's like X, buy this or change this many people's lives, create the best PT platform in the world, this sort of stuff that just sit there and they're like the dangling carrots. And then I set up the path to get there.
Miharo Gregory (44:27):
Me and my mate made this, it's like an Excel spreadsheet, I guess. And yeah, it's just got big goals written down, broken down into smaller goals. And for example, just because it's easy, but a black belt is the goal, but I'm just focusing on getting a blue belt, if you know what I mean. But I keep going. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (44:56):
Yeah, that's it. You can't really control the timing of that, but you can control your actions and what you do day to day. That's awesome.
Miharo Gregory (45:04):
Yeah, this many hours or this many techniques, that kind,
Brock Ashby (45:07):
Yeah, it's not that complicated when you think about it, eh? It's just like you're doing it in an Excel spreadsheet, but so many people don't actually achieve what they want to achieve because I think a lot of people are paralysed by fear as well. You have this big goal and it seems so far away, like black belt, you're like, man, that's like 10 years away minimum. But really the key is just going to the next class.
Miharo Gregory (45:29):
Once you break it down, it's easier to digest it
Brock Ashby (45:34):
And it's palatable. Yeah. Second question, is there someone that you know or just are aware of that contributes to you becoming a better person or becoming better every day? Could be a family member. It could be an author or a book you read. So it'd be that person that'd be responsible for it, or a mentor, or for you maybe, I don't know, a band member or whatever. Do you have someone that you would be like, yeah, that person's made me better?
Miharo Gregory (46:05):
Yeah, probably. I mean, I try and surround myself with people who are motivated and doing well, and I'm quite, people rub off on me pretty easily, I think.
Brock Ashby (46:21):
Yeah, I'm the same.
Miharo Gregory (46:23):
So I try and surround myself with people who are doing well. And I think I live with other musicians who are all pretty successful, and they definitely have made me better at music and then just at discipline and that kind of thing. But yeah, probably, definitely at the moment, Brad from LAB has definitely made me hone in and improve myself in a few aspects of life. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (46:56):
Yeah. I suppose you don't get to black belt by chance, do you?
Miharo Gregory (46:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that whole juujitsu thing, he got me into it. And then music of course, and just hearing his story and what he's overcome. Yeah, it's pretty inspiring.
Brock Ashby (47:14):
Awesome. Lastly, last question number three. Is there a quote that once again helps you get better or has helped you develop into a better person?
Miharo Gregory (47:26):
Yeah. One I often think about, which I've heard it used for a few things, but a successful musician is just a musician who stuck around. I know a lot of people who have dropped off or just kind of stopped, but the ones that are doing well have just stuck at it. And that is probably the same to relate it to jitsu. Again, a black belt is just a white belt who's stuck around, spent a lot more hours on the mat, and I'm sure that's the same with you don't get a physique a God to your physique without putting the hours in it.
Brock Ashby (48:08):
Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, and that's exactly why I love Jiujitsu, and you put it that way. Well, yeah, being a top tier musician is the same. There's not many of them, because a lot of people kind of fall by the wayside and yeah, same with physiques too. A lot of people want to look like X and have this physique, but they don't want to put the work in. It's like, yeah, they don't want to stick around when it's raining. They don't want to go for a run. It's crazy when it's raining, people don't go to the gym and they don't even go to Jiujitsu. I'm like, it's inside.
Miharo Gregory (48:41):
I know. Do you follow that guy, David Goggins? Do you know the guy?
Brock Ashby (48:47):
Yeah, I've read his book too. I don't follow him because I feel like once you've read his book, you understand his whole theory because he is just like a real hardass. He'll run a marathon with a broken leg, but yeah,
Miharo Gregory (48:57):
It's probably not the best. Well, but yeah, you get the idea.
Brock Ashby (49:04):
Yeah, he's that whole mindset.
Miharo Gregory (49:06):
Yeah, the mind can just do anything if you make it.
Brock Ashby (49:10):
Yeah, he's definitely one who's stuck around, man. He's pushed through everything. He's got a knee brace on and he's running. He's
Miharo Gregory (49:18):
Crazy.
Brock Ashby (49:19):
Yeah. Nah, his story's inspiring. Hey man. Well thanks so much for coming on, bro. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's been awesome to chat. Obviously, I've known you as a mate for a very long time, so I'm super proud of you, man, seeing you climb your way up and yeah, work your way through, going through your journey, starting music, going through nation, studying down on Inver Cargo, and then yeah, jumping on the band, not jumping on the bandwagon, the LEV, now you're really driving it with them and becoming the biggest band in New Zealand, so that's awesome, bro. It's been awesome to watch.
Miharo Gregory (49:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me and likewise, watching your journey and watching you. How well you've done is, I'm proud as well done. Awesome.
Brock Ashby (50:05):
Yeah, man, we just keep putting in the work. Hey, that's what we got to do.
Miharo Gregory (50:08):
Sticking around.
Brock Ashby (50:10):
Sticking around, man. Sticking around. Alright brother. I appreciate it, man. And yeah, well, I'll be talking to you soon. I'll see you at Blue Belt.
Miharo Gregory (50:18):
Yeah. Sweet bro.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
What's up and welcome to episode number 18 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Haley Jensen, the New Zealand cricketer, and we've been, I guess, messaging a little bit on Instagram. You've joined Built by Brock, which is really cool. And I've been following you through the World Cup and I guess checking up on you and seeing how you're doing, but I'd love you to, so most of my following or people that will listen to this are actually based in America and then it's Australia and then it's New Zealand. Can you give us a bit of a intro on who you are, how you come to play cricket for New Zealand?
Hayley Jensen (00:46):
Okay, cool. Thanks for having me on first of all. So I grew up in Christchurch, New Zealand. I've got an older brother, so he used to play cricket, and I just used to go around to his matches. And then one day I just decided that I was going to join in and basically cricket's a game with a bat and a ball for all these people who are in America who may not know it. It's a little bit like baseball, I guess. You have a bowler, which is the pitcher, and they bowl the ball down, you hit it and the score runs. You run end to end rather than round bases, and that's how you score runs. Aim of the game is the score more runs than the other team. And it's the same with outs, I guess. Strikes. If you get bowled out, then you are out of the game, so you lost.
(01:40):
It's a little bit like that. Anyway, so I started playing cricket when I was eight years old, and then when I was 10, I'd made my first training, winter training one-on-one coaching. My mom put me through it. So I was very cricket orientated from a very young age and have been doing it since, well now. So I'm 29 now, so it's a very long time. Well, and so yeah, I played for Canterbury all through my age group, going up to under 20 ones. And then when I, I think I was 22 or 23, I made New Zealand for the first time in 2014, went away to a World Cup in Bangladesh, which was a real eyeopener I've never seen. I had played for New Zealand for that full year and then got injured, so I tore my oblique, which meant I couldn't bowl or throw the ball, which meant I couldn't get selected for the next year. So I took a little break and moved over to Australia where my mum moved over to Melbourne. I took a gap year and worked in the school for a little bit, and then I moved back to New Zealand and made the New Zealand a team, but that unfortunately got cancelled because of the earthquakes in Christchurch.
Brock Ashby (03:07):
No way.
Hayley Jensen (03:10):
So that happened and then a couple after that made the back go to Melbourne and I ended up making the Victorian team there. And that was the first year of the Big Bash that came in. And so I played in the Women's Big Bash and played with Victoria in 2015 and then ended up moving to Canberra for a little bit and playing over there. And then through playing Big Bash over here, I guess I got called up by New Zealand and they wanted me to play back in New Zealand again. So I kind of had to make a decision whether I wanted to stay in Australia and play for an Australian competition as a local Australian player or throw that out the window and play as a New Zealand international player. So it was a little bit kind of a big decision because there was a big pay discrepancy I guess. So I was getting a lot more money playing in Australia because it's obviously well supported over here. And New Zealand's quite a small country, so their funding, they don't get as much funding, but New Zealand and talked to family friends and made a decision that I was going to go over to New Zealand and play again. So I've been in the team since 2018 and here I'm now, but now I'm in Canberra playing for New Zealand. But yeah, I just travelled back and forth one of these training camps and things like that.
Brock Ashby (04:51):
So what was the main deciding factor with you deciding to play for New Zealand? Was it a gut feeling? Did you know that deep down you wanted to represent your country? What was the deciding factor?
Hayley Jensen (05:04):
I think the main reason was it was always my dream to play for New Zealand. So ever since I was that little 8-year-old who started playing cricket, it was always my dream to play for New Zealand. So my mom just kept reminding me of that. And then probably the second major factor was cricket is not a lifelong career. You can only play it for a short amount of time and do I want to spend that time playing in one country or do I want to spend my time exploring other countries around the world? So that was kind of my second and biggest factor, deciding factor
Brock Ashby (05:43):
And coming back to that, obviously sport players do have that window of opportunity to really smash it. Have you thought about what life would be like after cricket?
Hayley Jensen (05:56):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (05:57):
Obviously you're not thinking about it now, but I'm a very forward thinker with everything that I do. So if I was playing sport, I would just always keep it in the back of my mind. Have you thought about it? Definitely,
Hayley Jensen (06:09):
Yep. So we get told to think about it quite a lot throughout New Zealand Players association. So don't just, life is not just cricket. So we have to think onwards what kind of courses and stuff we want to do. But I want to get into the real estate industry. My sister actually is in the real estate industry at the moment, so when I was up in the sunny coast with her, I kind of spent a few times at work and I really liked what she kind of does. So I want to get into real estate, do a few courses and that, then yeah, move on from cricket.
Brock Ashby (06:46):
Yeah, but it's such, obviously you want to put all your focus into here, but it's just a lot of sport players do it. A lot of the, for example, the NRL players go on and they do commentary or they do shows and stuff, but then some of them are just like, that's it, and then there's no real plan, and then they might spend all their money and then they're kind of just left. They didn't even almost have that career that is quite lucrative. They can make a lot. You talked about an injury. How did you injure yourself with your oblique? Was it from bowling because yours stretched out from
Hayley Jensen (07:23):
Yeah. Yeah. So it was basically when I crunched over, I just felt like this almost like a pop in my oblique and breathing, coughing, laughing, anything like that just I couldn't. And so it was terrible actually.
Brock Ashby (07:44):
And what was the rehab like for that? How long were you out for and what did you have to do session wise? Were you in the gym? Were you at the physio?
Hayley Jensen (07:54):
Yeah, I think I was out for about 12 weeks and just did a lot of physio. It was so long ago now for that injury. I've had so many injuries, but physio a lot of when I was up to doing it side planking, but starting on my knees then working way up. But a lot of cool work. I haven't had that injury again, thank goodness. So all the rehab must have felt? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (08:23):
And what other injuries have you had to overcome?
Hayley Jensen (08:28):
So I've torn my hamstringing before. I used to get a lot of knee issues. I used to sublux my kneecap a lot, so all my ligaments in my knee got stretched out, broken fingers, dislocated thumbs from catching the ball. You can see my pinky is a bit weird compared to that one. It's a bit off a lot of, if you haven't broken a finger, then I can guarantee you're not a true cricketer.
Brock Ashby (09:00):
You haven't played cricket.
Hayley Jensen (09:04):
What else have I done? I've had a stress fracture in my shin, slipped discs in my back. Cricket is, especially bowling is such an abnormal thing to do for your body and you put so much stress on it. So yeah, if you hadn't had any sort of injury, if you're a bowler, then
Brock Ashby (09:28):
In a bowling fast enough, get
Hayley Jensen (09:29):
Yourself lucky.
Brock Ashby (09:31):
Yeah, I think that's the danger with, well not danger, but that's the price you have to pay when you are playing sport. You've got to put your body on the line. And especially with bowling, it's such an imbalance. You're doing one side over and over and over again. And then if you're batting same side over and over and over and over, do you do any work for the opposite side in the gym? Just out of curiosity, because obviously if you're throwing with one arm you can get overuse injuries and stuff like that. That's just the nature of the game. But do you do any work to try and combat that?
Hayley Jensen (10:15):
We do a lot of pre exercises beforehand, so a lot of band work for shoulders and things like that, but we do them both sides. We do definitely do them both sides and a lot of single leg work so he can stop and imbalance on both sides as well. So we definitely do a lot of single arm, single leg stuff just so we're not trying, if we're doing a bench press for example, we're not using predominantly our stronger arm, the bowling. So we do a lot of single arm dumbbell press.
Brock Ashby (10:55):
Out of curiosity, what does your gym training look like? How often are you training? I know it'll be different if you are I guess gearing up for the Commonwealth Games and you're at training camp or if you are in cruise mode like off season, but when you're training and you're trying to get game ready, what does your training look like?
Hayley Jensen (11:18):
Yeah, so training, so getting into game mode type thing, we'd probably go in the gym around three, four times per week. And if we were on tour, it would be pretty low rep stuff, like heavy low rep. Right now it's like 15, 12, 8 reps just to get our strength back up. We are on a leave period, so three to four times per week in the gym. And then we'd have four conditioning sessions, whether it's running or a bike, probably through running sessions a week and then a bike, so like an off feet conditioning session. And then we'd have, depending if we're on tour or not, we'd probably have training every single day with the game
Brock Ashby (12:13):
As well. So
Hayley Jensen (12:15):
It's pretty full on.
Brock Ashby (12:16):
Yeah. So what other guidelines did they have in place for you? Obviously you're representing your country, it's a huge deal with nutrition or with sleep advice or lifestyle advice. Are they talking about how many steps you should be doing or how many hours you should be getting, giving you bedtime routines? How detailed do they get?
Hayley Jensen (12:41):
So we have a nutritionist and so that's when we get all of our skin folds done, which is the worst get skin folds done. He basically gives us, depending on how we went with our skin folds, if we just crept up a little bit,
Brock Ashby (13:04):
Which I'm sure happens in the off season, what
Hayley Jensen (13:05):
We're eating type thing. Yeah, definitely. Or on tour sometimes. Yeah. So he'll give us guidelines, basically use MyFitnessPal what you use as well. And so we can start tracking again, get back on track obviously with supplements and things like that. Because we are an international sport, we have to get all of our supplements and things batch tested, so we can't just go out and buy our protein or anything from the shop. We have to get them from New Zealand Cricket. So that's how we do all our supplements. We're sleep. We don't really get any advice on sleep. I mean I'm a very good sleeper, so I definitely don't get a lack of sleep. And then in regards to lifestyle and balance, life and cricket, it's mainly with our players association. So we have people who work pretty much 24 7 for us. If we have any questions that we need around, if we're too afraid to ask for some time off or we need a break, we go through our players association and they can forward it onto coaches. And then they're other ones who help us with other courses careers, they can even write your resume for you if you're applying for jobs.
Brock Ashby (14:38):
I've been making most of that.
Hayley Jensen (14:39):
They're basically our life coach. They're basically our life coach. And then we've got a nutritionist, SNC and other coaches as well.
Brock Ashby (14:51):
And this is just purely just out of my selfish curiosity, what sort of nutrition do they put you on and how does it differ off season, on season or after the game? Do you have post-workout things that you need to have or pre not, it's not really pre-workout if you're going into a game, but I guess I suppose took it so long. If you had a pre-workout, you'd be up for an hour, then you'd be asleep out on the field.
Hayley Jensen (15:22):
So our nutritionist would give us a big rundown of, so after any of our training sessions or games, he likes us to have protein help with recovery. And then when we're on tour, all of our lunches, all of our dinners after games or after training that provided for us. So he runs through basically with the caterers and things, what we should be eating so we don't get a choice in that. He just provides it for us. So I guess during game days it's more like high carbs stuff, so we have enough energy and then rest days it's probably not as much needed.
Brock Ashby (16:10):
And how do you keep your energy high for a match? Because obviously there's matches that will be short, shorter overs, and then there's huge entire days or weekends of cricket. How do you keep your energy that high
Hayley Jensen (16:27):
Or
Brock Ashby (16:27):
Manage your energy level?
Hayley Jensen (16:30):
So during games we always have an electrolyte bottle and then we have our water and then we have drinks breaks and stuff. If it's a 50 over match, so during those drinks breaks you can have an energy gel. I like those because they taste nice.
Brock Ashby (16:50):
I've had one, I ran a half marathon once. I was like, this is delicious. I stack up stuff in
Hayley Jensen (16:58):
Those. And then we also have snacks like bananas usually. Sometimes there's lollies, we get them, but and then we have lunch anyway, so we've got a full lunch menu to choose from. But I guess most of the girls, depending on if they're batters or bowlers, they don't like having a big lunch depending on if we buttered first or bowl first. So mainly it's just after the game, just yeah, some people don't eat much lunch because running around, we get a meal after the game for us and then we go back to the hotel and we order some more food just so we recover the next day. That's our point.
Brock Ashby (17:45):
Yeah, so I used to be a back in the, I posted this on Instagram the other day actually. I was a water boy, well, not well, sorry, I shouldn't say water boy. I was a ball boy at a Mami stadium after it was called Jade Stadium for the All Blacks and for any game that was at a MI stadium. So the first year I was younger, I was the only one that was 11 and everyone was 12. And then the next year I was head, so I was the big dog, I was the boss and yeah, when I was 12, but we did all the matches at AAMI Stadium, so the Canterbury Crusaders, whoever they versed, the Canterbury, NPC, I'm not, is it still called NPC or it TM cup
Hayley Jensen (18:30):
It TM cup, I think it's now.
Brock Ashby (18:32):
Yeah. So we did all those matches and then we did the All Blacks and we did the lions tour when they came and when they were placed South Africa and all this kind of stuff. So it was an awesome opportunity for a young up and coming rugby player, which I was, but after the match I used to hang around the changing rooms like a fly, like a peasant, just waiting to get their autograph and their signature because I used to buy the thing and get their autographs or if they lost the finals, they would give me their socks or their shorts and I was just like, like, mom, dad, look at this. And then and
Hayley Jensen (19:11):
They're like, oh, stinky.
Brock Ashby (19:12):
Yeah, they're like chocolate straight in the wash. But the food that they would have was huge in the changing rooms to refuel and recover. And even though it wasn't back to back or as long as a cricket match, that'd have snakes that have sushi, that have pizza, that have burgers, that have club sandwiches and sushi rolls and all that kind of stuff. But the table was huge. It was like 10 metres long of just food and they were just all stuffing themselves after the match. The amount of food that especially athletes can put in is huge and the amount of, because you are sweating and you're warming up and you're training so much that you do need that nutrition. I think that's one thing that I like about sport and performance-based goals over just trying to look good because at least when you're playing sport, you're really fueling to perform well and to make sure you do what you need to do. But often when people are just focusing on what they look like, it's like they won't eat enough and they'll try and see how much they can eat under what they need to because I think it's better. But with sport and performance, it's about how you actually perform and what your body can actually do. Have you ever been through a period of your life where you're focused on body transformation? Maybe I guess on the back of what you said, it's from the Skinfold test where they're like, Hey, your body fat's a bit too high,
Hayley Jensen (20:46):
You need a shred. But definitely you go through spaces all the time, especially being on tv, you're getting pictures taken with you and well, depending on who you are. I know definitely for me, I've had body image issues and stuff before and I've been through that period where I'm like, right, I'm going to go on this massive diet. I'm going to have 1200 calories per day. Meanwhile, I'm a professional cricketer and I'm wondering why I'm not getting rid of the results that I want. Yeah, I look a lot fitter and a lot skinnier, but I've got no energy. My fitness is going down, I'm getting weaker and I'm like, what the hell's going on? But now since I've been through that, I'm like, I actually, I've had it drilled into my brain that I actually need to eat to get energy to produce results. So yeah, it's something, especially sports people, when you look around at other players or other people and they have a different body image to you, you might be like, oh, I want to look like that, but they might not be as strong as fit as you type thing.
(22:10):
So it's definitely a big thing, especially in women's sport. I'm not sure if it is in men's sport because I can't say for them, but definitely in women's sport, body image and body issues is a big thing and I definitely think that needs to be talked about a lot in women's sport. But to answer the question, definitely being there on the chubby side, seeing myself and be like, no, I need the shred and look a bit better. But obviously that didn't fit in terms of my fitness and my strength. I might've felt a little bit better of the way I looked, but I didn't feel better in the way that I was performing. So need to find a little balance of that.
Brock Ashby (22:55):
Yeah, I think that's the downside of social media as well, where you'll just look at this person who is lean that isn't a professional athlete, that is getting paid to be shredded and look good like a fitness model that is sponsored by a supplement company that need their apps to take photos with their supplement tub in front of them. People can look at them and go, I want to be like them, but that's how they get paid. That's what they have to do in order to put food on the table. But then I think it's quite stupid when people look at them and they're like, oh, I want to be like that. But it's like, that's not how you get paid.
(23:37):
You don't need to be that lean. It doesn't make sense for you. You work a nine to five corporate job, you don't need to have a six pack year round, and you can do that if you want. But I think, yeah, it's super important to look at what your body does, especially when if we come back to women's sport and even moms and ladies, they're looking at people that might be 10, 15 years younger and they've just popped out a couple kids and they're comparing themselves to this 18-year-old, and it's like, that's not how it works. Sure, you can look amazing after kids. There's no obstacle to that, but you don't have to look like that. It's like what your body's just produced two amazing children. You are now structurally different and you need to embrace and be more about what your body can do as opposed to just looking a certain way, especially when it doesn't serve you. A lot of people deprive themselves of the foods that they like or of a lifestyle that they want to live just to look like this person that no one is actually expecting them to look like, but themself.
Hayley Jensen (24:43):
Yeah, definitely. I work in a woman's gym at the moment, just some casual work in a woman's gym, and even the women that come in there, they could be mothers of four kids or 7-year-old woman, and they come in and they're like, how do you look like yourself? And I'm like, well, I'm actually a professional sports person. I've been doing this for so long. You can't just come in the gym and expect something to happen. I've put in so much work over 20 years, so don't compare yourself to me, my job to be fit and play a game.
Brock Ashby (25:25):
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I also get the same thing. I'm not a professional sports player, haven't represented my country, but I trained, I've trained since I was 14. I grew up playing rugby. I played sports since I was six. I've played one game of cricket and I absolutely sucked. It was the worst. I was the worst. Cricketer two, I got nine runs, I faced about four balls. I got nine runs and I was done. Then I got bold.
Hayley Jensen (25:56):
Well, at least you got nine runs at a good strike rate
Brock Ashby (26:02):
Out with a bank. But yeah, I've been doing sport since I was six. I've been training seriously since I was 14, literally five to seven days a week for, what is that now? 14 years. And people are like, oh, I want to look like you. What do I do? I'm like,
Hayley Jensen (26:18):
It's like, we'll backtrack 14 years.
Brock Ashby (26:21):
Exactly. I'm like, well, we can make some great progress in eight weeks or we can make some solid progress in a year. But to just expect a programme and a diet and a supplement protocol just to look like someone who's trained for 14 years is just crazy. But then again, that's just for people what they look like. But then if you say, oh, I want to be as good as Haley's cricket, people kind of understand, oh, she's being playing for ages. That takes time. But for some reason, when it's about how you look, people think it just happens overnight with a sport. People are like, oh, that's a skill that has to be trained. Or they look at a golf swing and they try. When you first try swinging a golf swing, it looks horrendous, and then it takes years to get better and better. People understand that. But in terms of like, oh, I want a six pack and I
Hayley Jensen (27:11):
Want to step into a gym and then a six pack a pair,
Brock Ashby (27:15):
Yeah, exactly. It just doesn't work like that. But for some reason people just, they think that it's just handed to them. So how do you set your goals with training? Obviously you have to have your team goals, but you must have individual goals as well. Maybe there's a record or a certain stat that you want to hit or a certain ratio that you want to hold yourself to. What's your goal setting process as a team, but also as an individual?
Hayley Jensen (27:46):
So before each tour, we'll go through a campaign plan. That's what it's called. So out of the tour and how we want to play our style of game, you can set goals and targets during a game, but so many variables can happen during a game. So we don't really set goals or things during a game, but we have certain targets of how we want to play, how many runs we want to score. But because each pitch is different, we don't use a 20 kilo barbell that you can buy anywhere or you can find at any gym around the world. So each pitch is totally different. So you have to be so adaptable. So we have kind of guidelines of how we want to play our game, but then also we know that you have to assess it when you're on the field. And then personal goals are mainly just around performance, but at the same time, you could be feeling so good and then you could just nick out and get out first ball.
(29:02):
It's so hard to do performance-based goals in cricket because a lot of the game is about luck. You could hit the ball in the air and get dropped, but you actually gave away a chance. So it's like, do I think that's good that I made this many runs, but I actually got dropped and then the next day you could get at physical court, but the day before that you got dropped. So I think goals for me that are more around how I'm feeling, so if I go through my processes, each training, so I have this little routine that I do before the ball's bold, how I can react after the ball's bold, but if I played a good shot, you kind of tell yourself you're coaching yourself as you are playing. So if I'm in a good mindset, then that's a good thing for me. If I'm not thinking too much, then it's probably the best for me. But yeah, if I'm overthinking things, that's when I know that I'm in probably a bad space.
Brock Ashby (30:13):
So how do you, my
Hayley Jensen (30:13):
Goal sitting?
Brock Ashby (30:15):
Yeah, how do you try and control your mindset? Because yeah, like you said, you have to coach yourself. I do something every morning where I literally talk out loud to myself, which seems a bit bonkers, but I've done it every day for a pretty long time, and I'm a big fan of that, and I guess that is coaching myself every morning to try and have the best day possible. How do you coach yourself? Do you talk to yourself out loud or do you just talk in your
Hayley Jensen (30:38):
Head? Probably not out loud. Yeah, I talk in my head a bit and also if I'm struggling, because especially when you're batting, you have another person down the other end that you can talk to. You just have to be like, can you just tell me to calm down? Or we're just going to talk to take up some time so I can just gather myself before I go and face the next ball. You've got little tips that you can go up and just rely on your other person. And then obviously when you're fielding bowling, you've got 11 other people that you can talk to and slow the game down. Hey, please come over here and talk to me. Just tell me what I need to do because I'm a bit model at.
Brock Ashby (31:23):
Yeah, I think that's the benefit of team sport as well. You get to lean on people. I've started Juujitsu recently, and it's not really a team sport because it's just about you and what you're doing, but it kind of has that same feel if there's a class and we're rolling, which is if you don't know you're rolling with someone, you're kind of sparring them or fighting them. If you're just getting absolutely smashed, I do often because a white belt, so I'm getting absolutely Hamed, I've only done it for about six months, but they'll actually help you and they'll say, look, this is how I submitted you. I went like this. I went like that. You're doing good. There's such a good atmosphere, and even though it's a solo sport, you're out there. It's not two on one or two on two or anything, it's just you.
(32:10):
It's super helpful. The higher belts will say, oh look, I got your foot because you put it here and there and there and it kind of makes you feel better. But it's such a challenge for your ego as well. Even though I'm strong, I've trained for 14 years, they're like, yeah, man, you're really strong. You'll do good. But I still get smashed every time because it literally doesn't mean anything. If you have no technique, which I'm still trying to learn. I can push people off me probably more than other people, but I still get caught just as much. So I struggle sometimes. I get there, I'm just like, oh man, here's another session where I'm just going to get tapped and I'm going to get armbar. I'm going to be in a triangle and tapping and choking and all this, but I lean on the higher belts sometimes and just say, how can I get better? Or mate, I'm frustrated, I don't really want to be here. And they're like, mate, there's three more years of this. They're like, I've been doing it for five years and I still don't know what I'm doing. And you're like, oh, that kind of makes me feel a bit better, even though I feel like it's a struggle. There's a saying that a black belt is just a white belt who never quit. It's just showing up and doing the same thing over and over and over again. I know that's not really coaching yourself, but having that team or that people or support network around you really, really helps to build you up. I've got another question.
Hayley Jensen (33:31):
Definitely. Oh, sorry. That's what team is for, isn't it?
Brock Ashby (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was
Hayley Jensen (33:36):
Just, that's what the team is for, isn't it? Helping each other.
Brock Ashby (33:39):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I got one more question that I wanted to get out before I wrapped up with the last kind of three questions around, but I guess I was talking to you, how do I word this without screwing it up? So I had to write it down, and I guess I'll let you talk about it more. I guess I just want to answer the question, but I have a lot of clients and even audience followers or I don't really like that word, but people that are around me or that I influence. I also don't like that word either, but that again, especially a lot of one-on-one clients, even when I was face-to-face personal training, and they've talked about their journey to me, what it was like growing up. So the question that I wrote was how was it discovering your sexual orientation growing up? And then I guess on the back of that, navigating that through women's sport.
Hayley Jensen (34:34):
Yeah, I guess I was pretty lucky. I had really supportive parents. I have really supportive family who are completely fine with me being gay. And then through that, I guess a lot of cricketers, they at least know someone who is gay in a team or a sport environment. It's very common in cricket, especially to actually know somebody who is gay. So it wasn't too difficult for me in sport. We actually have a married couple who's in our New Zealand team who they're gay, they have a baby, everyone loves her. She's got a million aunties all around the world, this little girl. Yeah. But it's a common thing that nowadays it's so well known and accepted around the world, I guess.
Brock Ashby (35:42):
And do you think that would've been the case if it was way back? Do you think it's grown in, I guess people being maybe comfortable to express themselves or communicate that? Do you think it would've been the case maybe 50 years ago or even, I dunno, a hundred years ago or 20 years ago even? Do you think the landscape is changing that way?
Hayley Jensen (36:05):
Definitely. It's changing a lot. It's becoming a lot more accepted. I think it's all through social media because if you think of 50 years ago, you wouldn't have had Facebook, a phone and a newspaper. So when you've got all the social media platform that people are expressing themselves, you have a lot of famous people coming out over social media, people will think, oh, well, it's actually okay now this person is lesbian or this person is trans or this person is gay. And because of their profile that they're expressing through the world to social media, people are becoming more accepting of that. And the fact of the matter is it's that person's life. If I said that I was straight and I could just be myself more accepted if I was like I was gay, I'd be exactly the same person. So sometimes I don't understand. I guess there is religious things that come into it, but at the same time with people who don't have religious issues and things like that, I'm kind of like, I'm the same person whether I'm straight or gay, if you like me, you like me. If you don't,
Brock Ashby (37:27):
Yeah, I think at the end of the day it's just about being the person that you are and regardless of your religion or your outlook, I think it's up to the individual to make their own life choices and you can't do anything about that, whether you get infuriated or whether you are super pro it and you're like, that's awesome. I think regardless of what you say or do, people are going to do what they want anyway. So in my opinion, it's like there's no point in combating that unless you are a super religious person that's going to stand out outside of Westfield with a microphone and a big sign and say, Hey, you need to do this and you need to do that. But yeah, I think people should be open to live the life that they want to live and express themselves the way that or love the people that they want to love. Do you have any advice for anyone that may be discovering their journey or maybe struggling in terms of wanting to tell people or trying to navigate that part of their life?
Hayley Jensen (38:36):
Find somebody who you trusts the most, who you think that you can tell your deepest dark of secret to, and then tell them, and then you've told at least somebody and then they can give you confidence because it's kind of like once when you're keeping it to yourself, you feel so claustrophobic almost that you're keeping this secret, I guess, about your own life. It's becomes so suffocating sometimes. So if you actually tell someone who you trust the most, and then I guess you'll actually know if they're a really good person in your life, and so they'll be there supporting you if they are that person. And if they're not, then they probably shouldn't be in your life anyway.
Brock Ashby (39:28):
Yeah, no, that's great advice. Yeah, friends telling people, I remember when I was younger and I actually started in, I guess it was a boys group, we would just meet up and it was all good mates, and I remember this one time was this guy, he was like, he's like, I struggle with watching porn and masturbation, and everyone was like, whoa. He just went there. It was quite light stuff. We were like, oh, how's your day? Oh yeah, work's tricky, blah, blah. And we'd go around circle and say stuff, and then he was just bang and everyone was like, whoa. But for him to share that, that then opened the door for everyone else, and it turned out pretty much every dude that was a teenager in the group was feeling the same way. They're like, I struggle with that too. Or I have a girlfriend this and I can't blah, blah, blah, makes me feel like this and that. And all of a sudden we got way closer as mates because we were all, I guess being more honest, but it took that one person to take that step first to say it
Hayley Jensen (40:39):
First. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (40:41):
And that reminds me of that advice that you just gave. If you just be honest with someone that can kind of open the door to even freeing you, but then also letting your friends' input into your life as well.
Hayley Jensen (40:57):
Yeah, they could take that confidence from you. They're like, wow, that's so brave of sharing this thing about themselves. Maybe I can find the confidence to share something about me if they're holding to something.
Brock Ashby (41:10):
Yeah, a hundred percent. It's kind of like that team sport thing that we were talking about before. I want to jump into these last three questions. Don't want to keep you for too long. The first question is, so these questions are based on self-development. I'm super passionate about it. I read heaps of books around self-development and I love quotes and I love pushing yourself and motivation and that whole topic of just getting better, which is a big reason why I started this podcast. So I have three questions that I want to ask you just wrapping up. The first one is, is there something you do every day to make yourself better or help you become a better person?
Hayley Jensen (41:50):
That is a difficult question because I don't have a certain routine or anything that I do every single day, but once in a while I kind of just look back on what I have done during my life and what I can do in the future. Certain things like cricket wise and also studying wise, that sort of thing, and where I first started and actually where I am now in regards to those type of things. So I do that a little bit. I wouldn't say I do it every single day because it's probably the same kind of stuff, the
Brock Ashby (42:31):
Same thought,
Hayley Jensen (42:33):
But definitely, I don't know, once a month, once every couple of months have a look back and wow. I do write a lot of notes down of my gym programmes, like my cricket life, and so I just have a look back of a few months ago what I've done. Wow, this is where I'm now, so I do write a lot of notes. Maybe that's something that I do, but not every day, but most days I write notes, but so I can look back on what I'd done before and then can see changes in where I'm now.
Brock Ashby (43:15):
And do you find that the things that you look back at are things that you are doing or have already done?
Hayley Jensen (43:21):
Yeah, so mainly it's like, I guess gym programmes. So what my PB was then, and I was so stoked with that and what my PB is now and I'm more happy with that and now I can make another goal and be like, I want to get to here by this time. And then when I look back on that, wow, that was so low, I can't believe that was so good for me.
Brock Ashby (43:47):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's important to do that every now and then look back and actually see what you've achieved and then you can use that, I guess willpower that you get or motivation, yeah, motivation from what you previously achieved to fuel what you need to achieve next, and it kind of creates the cycle. I've talked about this before, but there's a cycle of motivation that's like you get results and then you get motivation and then that turns into action, sorry, starts with action, and then that leads to results, and then it goes to motivation and it kind of just goes around like that, but you need to take action first and get the results, which is what you're looking back at. This is what I need to do. Then you do it, you look back, you see the results and then motivates you and you kind of keep using that as a willpower circle that I guess like a turbine or a fan to propel you into the future. Yeah, that's awesome. The second question is, is there someone that you can credit or that helps you become a better person or someone you follow or a parent or a friend or a family member or just anyone, maybe a book you read, an author. Is there anyone that you would give you credit to creating who you are
Hayley Jensen (45:06):
As an all round person? There's probably not one single person. There's probably a lot of people, people in my family, my mom, my sister, my brother, they've kind of made me into the person I am personally, but cricket wise, probably the person who I live with, Susie Bates, I'm sure she wouldn't mind me mentioning her name, but when I go to Otago and I'm there for about three or four months a year in New Zealand, I stay with her and she's a legend of New Zealand cricket. She's the goat of New Zealand cricket, and so she helps me a lot. We train together, we do everything together. She drags me down to the track to do all of our sessions together. She drags me to the Nets to do all that training cricket wise. So her definitely through cricket and basically just the person that she is, she's every session, she just lifts the energy of the group. So by the time I'm finished cricket, I want to be a quarter of what she is,
Brock Ashby (46:31):
Susie Bates. That's awesome.
Hayley Jensen (46:33):
Yeah, that's her name.
Brock Ashby (46:36):
And the last question is, is there a quote that you lean on or that helps you become a better person?
Hayley Jensen (46:46):
It's probably just, so the one that I relate to cricket the most was one of my coaches when I played in my first ever tournament, she mentioned to me, she said, always play the highest level that you can so you can learn off all the people around you, even if you're not playing in the actual playing 11, even if you are just sitting around them, you can always learn so much. And the other one was always be happy with what you're doing. If you're not happy, then you're not going to be doing the best job.
Brock Ashby (47:23):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of quotes and that higher level one, I'm super into that as well. That can come down to even applying that to your friends and your circle. Not saying that you only need to hang around with high achievers, but it definitely does, I guess, lift your perspective and lift your energy when you hang around people that would be above you in any area that you want to be. That's one thing I definitely did growing up, hanging out with. I think I just gravitated. Yeah, that's why I was a ball boy. I was like, I'm going to sit there one day. I guess I just gravitated towards older people and just having, I guess more of a mature mindset and I think that helped me grow up as a kid faster, especially losing my mom at a young age. That really helped me grow up and look at life for what it is and be inspired to, I guess I had to grow up quickly being surrounded by people that were older, helped me guess get better in a lot of areas than I needed to kind of get by.
(48:31):
And also on a sporting level, so I used to play touch rugby at a representative level back in Christchurch, so I played for Canterbury. I actually got asked to play for New Zealand, but I couldn't afford it at the time. So I said, I was like, dad, fundraise sage chocolate. I was like, dad, do we have any money? Can I play for New Zealand? He's like, no. I was like, oh, okay. Then. Yeah. Anyway, having three and a half grand at a young age, I think I was 16, was non existing. I looked at my bank, I was like, I don't have 3000.
(49:09):
Yeah, that was my favourite sport growing up. That was I guess my cricket. But yeah, so the under nineteens team, they asked me to play or even under nineteens for touch rugby or I could where I would I guess be in the middle where all the action is the captain or pretty in a good position, or I could play for the men's and they were like 35 to 25 all yeah, it was like the best team. The New Zealand Captain Naza was the captain of the cannery team, so I was like, whoa, I'll just play for them and then I'll get way better. I was on the wing, so I wasn't getting much ball time or starting most games, but I was around the world's best players. I was around Scotty Grunt, who if touch, he invented Hudson Corners and I was like, man, this is absolutely awesome. So I played for them. We went on tournament and deal with stuff, and then I came back to play in my age group and I was just smashing because it's just completely different. So that quote's like so true. Did you have that in cricket a time where you played for a higher team and then came back down and realised the difference or an opportunity to play for a higher team
Hayley Jensen (50:27):
Team? Yeah, definitely. Growing up, I think I might've been about 15 and I got asked to go to, it was called a Canterbury Development Team, which is basically under 20 threes. And so I went away with them. So I had the choice to either go to an under 17 secondary school tournament or go on the development tournament, and I was like, oh, well, if I'm looking back to what my coach said to me when I was younger, should go on the older one. So I went back and played for them, and even though I was probably batting number 11 and probably bowling a couple of overs per game and just standing out on the field for the rest of the day, you actually learn so much. And even if you have a certain quality of bowling or you have a certain quality of players, you're instantly going to improve your game so much more, especially in defence because they've been bowling a little bit better. And then just the people around you, because they are going to be better than you, it just motivates you to get on the same level as them. So once you go down a level again, then you're just like, wow, this is what they did here. I did all of this awesome stuff there and now I'm just back down doing this basic thing that I'm already nailing.
Brock Ashby (52:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like that though. It's like you go complete the test that you're studying for and then all the answers, you're like, oh, I already know how to do all this stuff. It just makes you cut above the rest. So I guess to wrap up the podcast, what's next for you? You said you're gearing up for the Commonwealth Camps?
Hayley Jensen (52:21):
Yeah, so I think I've got two weeks of leave left and then headed back over to New Zealand the start of June for a training camp. And then I think we've got two within 10 days, so I'll probably stay over there day there for a few weeks, then I might come back to Canberra and then for a couple weeks and head back over. The Commonwealth Games are in Birmingham and England, so it's the first time that Cricket's ever been in the Commonwealth game. So we're all very excited for that.
Brock Ashby (52:56):
Sorry, I missed it. I missed it. The computer's shitting itself. He's like, hurry up and get off, bro.
Hayley Jensen (53:07):
Yeah, so crickets. It's the first time that it's going to be in the Commonwealth game, so we're all excited for this new opportunity.
Brock Ashby (53:18):
I got that. So first time it's going to be in the Commonwealth Games, you're pausing out a bit. So I think I'll try, I guess we'll wrap it up. Your computer's not liking me, it's shitting itself, so I'll wrap it up. I'll say,
Hayley Jensen (53:34):
Now you're cutting out for me. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (53:39):
The time limits up. I guess we'll wrap it there. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, we tried to do this, so hopefully next time you're in Sydney we can get it actually and sit down in a room where we don't have any breaks and I'm cutting out. But yeah, I appreciate your time. I know you're wifi
Hayley Jensen (53:57):
Issues.
Brock Ashby (53:58):
Yeah, I know you're a busy lady and you got a lot to do, so I appreciate your time and wish you nothing but the best at the Commonwealth Games. I'll be watching. So post on your stories or post please, so I can watch.
Hayley Jensen (54:11):
Okay? Okay. Thanks for having me on.
Brock Ashby (54:16):
No worries. Thank
Hayley Jensen (54:17):
You so much. Hope you're back. It's better, by the way.
Brock Ashby (54:20):
Yeah, it's terrible man. It's actually just sore sitting here, to be honest.
Hayley Jensen (54:26):
Oh, sorry.
Brock Ashby (54:30):
I can't, so putting my arm up hurts like this. It's really weird. So yeah, I'm seeing a physio tonight, so hopefully it gets better because it sucks. Yeah. Alright then. Well thank you so much and yeah, I'll talk to you again soon.
Hayley Jensen (54:46):
Okay, thank you.
Brock Ashby (54:48):
See you. Bye. See. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up guys and girls? This is Brock here, and we are on episode number 16 of the Better with Brock podcast. Today I have, or this morning I have a client and becoming, I guess you could say becoming a partnership or a friendship over this journey that we've had together. My client, thorn Reynolds and, well, he's actually the winner of the first built by Rock Challenge that we had. He had an amazing transformation in the eight week challenge that we first ran, and as being a winner from that, we've done well. We're going to be doing, it's not there yet, but six months of one-to-One coaching, which we're currently working through on our last eight weeks with that. And he's just, I really wanted to get him on because he has achieved amazing things, but he's also been on a journey through his fitness. He also has a career that's very fitness oriented, I would say. So yeah, thanks for jumping on this morning. May I know, well, it's kind of early, but I appreciate your time, man.
Thern Reynolds (00:01:04):
No, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.
Brock Ashby (00:01:07):
So I kind really want to start, I guess with where you started and how your fitness journey has, I guess, started to, I guess where you met me or came into built by Brock and really I guess decided to take outside action on your progress. So how did it all start for you?
Thern Reynolds (00:01:29):
Well, I think I just have to go back a little bit. Well actually go back over 20 years. As you know, I'm a professional, have been a professional dancer since I was 16 and work in musical theatre. And basically I only ever started, I started at the gym in my mid twenties. I'm 49 now, and I kept getting back injuries and I was seeing my osteopath and I kept saying, I'm having this constant back pain. And he literally looked at me and he said, you have a really strong back, but you have no chest. And I was really flat chested like no pectoral muscles. And he is like, you need to work the front of your body because the back of your body is taking the strain of what you're doing all the time, so you're putting too much pressure. That's how I started at the gym. So I basically hit the gym and I was, luckily, my body responded very well to weights and to gym training, and it ended up being something that I loved and I did it. Initially, I only started doing it because I had to improve to help with my career, but then I ended up, I love the gym and I still do, but I got, before I started the Built by Brock, the first challenge, I had hit a point obviously with Covid as well and lockdowns and all of that kind of
Brock Ashby (00:02:48):
It,
Thern Reynolds (00:02:48):
Particularly in, we had it shocking, but I just sat on the couch and ate donuts, Hey, because donuts are another passion of mine, gym and donuts, go figure. But look, it wasn't just donuts, but it was bad habits sitting on the couch. And I just noticed that I had just stacked on, well, actually, I didn't notice that I had stacked on weight, but I felt like I had, and it wasn't until I remember I messaged you literally, I think it was late at night like 9:00 PM the night before the first challenge started. And I messaged you and said, am I too late? And you were like, no, man, go ahead, sign up. So I literally just did it the night before and I just woke up the next day ready to go. I, I think the catalyst for it really was after that conversation with you when I took my photos and I saw the behind pick, and I said to my partner, mark, I'm like, how could you not tell me that I looked like this?
(00:03:49):
How could you not mention it? And he said, well, I didn't really notice either, but I reckon he did that. He did mention it. But anyway, I saw those photos and I was absolutely horrified because I'd never in my life had gained that much weight and I actually couldn't believe that it was me. So that next morning I woke up with a brand new, I was just, and we were locked up. So I even had a curfew at the time. I just woke up with the resolve and the drive. I was like, I'm going to do this. And I was so focused on it and I was lucky. Thanks for letting me win. Hey,
Brock Ashby (00:04:25):
Well, you earned it, man. You earned it. Yeah,
Thern Reynolds (00:04:27):
I loved it. I loved that. And that first workout that I did was the home workout, and it wasn't, so I wasn't even in a gym. And we had purchased, mark and I had spent about probably about a thousand bucks on just a few sets of dumbbells and a bench for home to get us through that period. And I literally won that challenge with one set of 30 kilo dumbbells, one set of 17.5 kilo dumbbells and one set of 10 kilo dumbbells. That's all I had for that challenge, but it was the diet and it was the calorie deficit thing that really I think was the biggest tool in my box. I followed those calories. I went hard with the diet, but that's what I think really it's the diet and it's the way that you explained the calorie deficit. I've always felt that I had to take stuff away from myself to achieve something. And that was never something that sat well with me. I've never been on a diet, I've never been the sort of person that, because I've never had to. Well,
Brock Ashby (00:05:33):
When you're dancing, and like I said, your career is founded on fitness, you're so active, you don't really have to think about diet because you're burning so many calories, you can almost eat what you want and it just looks after you, just looks
Thern Reynolds (00:05:44):
After. Exactly. And I was a very skinny teenager. And then I think around 30, I started to really notice that my body had changed into a man, man body before that. But it was weird to suddenly think that food was having such a negative impact on, I shouldn't say food was my choice of the amount of food that I was eating during that time was having such a profound effect on the I looked, and that really struck me. When you get to my age, as I say, not that I'm really old, but when you get to your late forties and you've spent a life of fitness looking and feeling good, and then suddenly you look in the mirror and all that's changed and you have to make drastic changes and at least apply yourself. And that's what I loved. You made it really easy. It was very easy for me to focus on the information that you'd given me, and it wasn't complicated. And too many people in the past had always told me that I had to go without this. And you just made it sound easy to do in the sense that the methods and just the discipline, and it just struck me. I've spent my whole life being disciplined and it was just like you reminded me about the discipline and I just applied really.
Brock Ashby (00:07:04):
So take us through, if you can come back to when you were doing the challenge. What were you actually eating in a day? Was it very different to what you were having before? Because you said you were chilling on the couch eating donuts, and then you were like, all right, I'm going to join the challenge. I'm going to try this calorie deficit thing. What did it look like your day to day?
Thern Reynolds (00:07:26):
It didn't change a lot. What I was eating didn't change a lot because I also do stand by the fact that I love food, I love pasta, and I love, as I say, donuts and cakes and sweets, and I love crisps, but I literally didn't change a lot. I mean, I ate healthier. I found myself, I love the Chobani Fit yoghourt and the berries in the morning. That became a staple for me. It became the way I started my day, and while it's not very filling, all I felt like I needed in the morning was just a little something inside to get me through the first few hours of the day, I learned to budget my intake. If you ask again, I keep mentioning my partner, mark, but if you ask him, I'm a shockingly awful person. When I'm hungry, I'm a hungry. I'm one of those, you go, I get crazy when I'm hungry and what this calorie deficit.
(00:08:27):
And by spreading it, what it actually made me do was it actually made me tolerate that feeling of hunger. So I would only eat when I knew that I couldn't physically get through another minute of the day. So I just, instead of being a glutton and opening the cupboard whenever I felt like it for a chocolate chip cookie, again, it was just the mental strength of saying, no, you're not actually hungry. Just wait a little bit longer. And I counted calories. I was to the absolute. By the time we finished that eight week challenge, I think I was on 1700 calories, but I started on 2,200. And what I did was just as the weeks went by, I would see how I was feeling and then I would just sort of, again, it's looking at it and thinking, well, I didn't really need that, but I had it.
(00:09:21):
So if I really wanted to shred a little bit more, I could go without that. So we have the little apple pies for dessert. Here's an example, and these are only the little four mini apple pies. I went from having one of those and a tub of little tub of custard, which we love here in our house. And I went from having, it's a mini apple pie. Then I said, okay, I can halve that apple pie. And the thing is, is that it's satisfying. It was enough just to halve the apple pie without having to eat the whole thing. And I think that's really what I learned.
(00:09:57):
But I love Asian food. So once a week I would allow myself to have my Thai, it's like a fried rice with chicken and stuff, which is what I love. But I limited myself. I didn't stop myself from having it, but I just had it once a week. And every Saturday night I look forward to that Thai dinner, but it was just negotiating with myself and just saying, no, no, no, just have something else tonight. And it just seemed to work. And I also had Mark here doing it with me. So we did it together. And I really think as a team, I mean he was already ripped, hated him. I was so jealous. He was already already, but he did it with me because it became a game in our household. We enjoyed counting the calories and seeing what we could and couldn't have. And it became something that we did together. And that I think really helped.
Brock Ashby (00:10:46):
Yeah, I think
Thern Reynolds (00:10:48):
Could I have been that disciplined on my own? I don't know. But he really helped me in that respect.
Brock Ashby (00:10:53):
Yeah, I think when you start to see it like a game, it does help. It kind of makes it fun as opposed to just feel like you are depriving yourself or this is so hard, you kind of see it as a challenge. That's what I like to do as well when I'm dieting, is I like to put the foods in that I'm trying to make room for. Let's say you said you like cakes and donuts and stuff. I like ice cream. That's mainly my thing. So I would put that in at the start of the day, so I know that I have that, and then I would work back from there so that I always made room for it. So then it was a game of, okay, what else can I squeeze in that's healthier than ice cream? And yeah, what do I feel like, what can I put in there? Can I put peanut butter in? Should I not? So I can have that later on in the day. It was a bit of a game, but I like what you said.
Thern Reynolds (00:11:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:11:41):
I like what you said, and you didn't have to change the type of food that you were having. You were just changing the quantity. And that's what really gets under my skin as a personal trainer. When people say, oh, you can't have that, or That's not healthy. Alright, we're going to do this challenge. Heaps of personal trainers do challenges, but it's like, here's your meal plan. Okay, we're cutting sugar, we're cutting bread, we're cutting dairy, we're not doing that. And you're going to do this for eight weeks. And let's say they do get great results in eight weeks, but then what's the solution after that when they want go back to normal where they do want to eat a donut on the couch, if they do that, they associate that with that being bad. And then they're kind of forever stuck on this meal plan. And that's why I'm not team meal plan, I'm team flexible dieting because as you said, you don't have to cut anything out. You just have to have discipline with the quantity, but you still get to have that taste of the things you enjoy and it just makes it feel that much more sustainable.
Thern Reynolds (00:12:37):
Well, as you just said then the word that you just used then was enjoy. And I want to enjoy my life and food is a big part of my life. Again, I keep mentioning Mark, but he doesn't love food. Mark eats because he has to eat. And that just blows my mind because
Brock Ashby (00:12:56):
Yeah, I'm kind of in his kind of mindset. Yeah, I'm not a big foodie. I've always said this with, well, so my wife will go off, well not go off at me, but she'll, because growing up in New Zealand, I was tomato sauce on everything. So she gets so offended. I look at her, I'm halfway through my dinner, I'm like, I'm going to get the sauce now. And it's kind of like it's got to a place where it's okay, but first of all, it was like, what the hell are you doing? I would put it on Thai food, I'd put it on Indian food. I would just absolutely ruin food. A foodie like yourself would be like, what are you doing? But for me, because I guess I was like, mark, I ate because I had to eat and I was a skinny kid growing up, so I would literally not have to force feed myself, but I'd have to eat a big volume of food. So I'd kind of just be like, well, I'm not really enjoying this. I'll just eat it because I have would just put bread on things because I had to, or else I'll just keep losing weight and losing weight. I was so active. But yeah, I'm probably in Mark's camp with just hiding because I
Thern Reynolds (00:14:06):
Grew up with a father who's mixed race on my dad's Malaysian and a whole bunch of other things. But I grew up with Malaysian food on the stove. My dad would cook curries and rice and it was just always sitting on the stove. So we've always been exposed to yummy food growing up. So I don't know. But for me, like you just said then before, to enjoy, I can't enjoy what I do and I certainly can't sustain my work if I'm not eating food brings me happiness, and that becomes part of the happiness that I need to get through my day. And as you say, other trainers, I just would never be willing to sacrifice food, but certainly learned that sacrificing the quantities of what I eat, there's no denying that it works.
(00:14:57):
I think I mentioned to you, I was going through this box of 26 chocolate chip cookies in 24 hours during that lockdown period before I started the programme, I would literally eat 26 cookies in 24 hours. It was bad, but I love cookies and I didn't see the effect that it was having on me and learning about that. I think the food journey more than anything else, as I say, I've trained and the workouts are fantastic, and you've certainly introduced me to a whole brand new way of training and the variation, how important the variation is in changing things up and using programmes for a certain amount of time to build, to be goal focused, and then changing accordingly depending on the way you've progressed with strength and all of that sort of stuff. But the food stuff, that has been the big game changer for me, really learning that those quantities really matter, really matters.
Brock Ashby (00:16:04):
And how did you stay focused during lockdown training at home? Because obviously you had a built by Brock programme, which would've helped because you would've committed yourself to something. But still, even me, I struggled to train at home. I did it because I had to, but I've had years of, and I posted about this morning on Instagram actually. I've had years of doing things that I don't want to do
(00:16:29):
When you don't really want to do them, but because you do it, you kind of build this grit, you build this resilience of, okay, it's just something that has to be done so I can do it. And I understand that you would've had that too with your career and even with your training and stuff, but how did you stay motivated? Because a lot of people were in that position that you were, but for the whole pandemic eating donuts on the couch, but for the whole time you gave it, I don't know, maybe a month or two or three, and then you were like, all right, I need to get myself. Yeah,
Thern Reynolds (00:16:57):
Actually, I think we started, we start the programme in the September, I think it August, I think it was September. It started
Brock Ashby (00:17:04):
In August, our
Thern Reynolds (00:17:05):
31st of August, and I noticed that I was starting to eat, so it was actually March that year is when I started. The downhill slide was March, April, may, June, July. So it was about five months of gluttony. And I like to call as Mark calls me a guts. He said, you're a guts. And I hate being called a guts. Like don't call me a guts. That's awful, but it's the truth. I was being a guts, but I stayed motivated, well for a couple of things. And the first one is I just kept looking at that photo of myself that really motivated me to have those pictures and to keep uploading those pictures into the app so that you could see them. The accountability kept me motivated, the thought of you
(00:17:51):
Putting this time into me and then me not coming back with the results. That was a factor. And really when I look back at the pictures, I noticed that at the three week mark, I was doing what I was doing, but really at the three week mark, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 weeks is where I went. I just noticed massive changes week, week, week after week. So it took a couple of weeks to kick in, but also I think, as I say, I don't do anything in life unless I really want to do it. I've always been like that. It was not a problem for me to stay motivated during that, wait eight weeks at all. In fact, I would wake up every day and the first thing that I would do is reach for my phone to see what my workout was going to be. I had absolutely no issues at all throughout that entire time, staying motivated because I really wanted to do it. And I knew that email to you the night before. It just something clicked in my head.
(00:18:53):
But I loved that. Even that at home workout, it was phenomenal. It was phenomenal for me. I just responded well to it. And I think that combined with the mindset plus the support of Mark with the food and that whole thing, everything just seemed to come together really, really easily. As we've discussed. What I find now is that with my work and the things that I do with life, it's been this last four months of all my new programming with you that I've had my ups and downs with trying to keep in line with the new stuff that we've been doing. Because as you know, with my work, every week can be different and depending physically on how I feel. But during that eight week at home, not a drama, I did not struggle at all with that initially. With food I might've, I was like, oh God. But that was just again, changing habits, but doing the workouts and getting up each day to face what I had to do that day was not an issue at all.
Brock Ashby (00:19:55):
Yeah. One thing you touched on with taking photos and looking at yourself, that's why I'm a big fan of people doing that. Obviously, if people have something that it's going to negatively impact their mental health, when they see photos like that, I'm not going to push it on someone like you have to take photos, but I just know that when you look at photos and even myself, sometimes you can just say, okay, I've let myself go or I'm comfortable. So now it's time to get back into that. It's not like fat shaming yourself like, oh, I'm this person or that person, and negatively talking about yourself. I think it's just important to track where, so you can have an honest representation of actually where you're at, because we're so good at lying to ourself and being like, oh, it's all good. It's fine. I've been worse, or something like that. But when you actually look at facts and data and what you actually look like, sometimes that can be the motivating factor, and that's why, same with calories, we can say, oh, I'm not being too bad. I'm being pretty good with my calories. And then as soon as you track it, you know that you are 2000 calories over your maintenance and that's why you're putting on weight.
Thern Reynolds (00:21:09):
Yeah, there's only one other time in my life, and as I say to you, looking at that picture, it shocked me. And if I go back like 12 years, as I say, I've always been fit, but I remember getting some photos back from a Christmas and there's a picture of Aussie Christmas. Sometimes it's really hot, and there's this picture of me sitting at the Christmas dinner table or lunch table. I remember, it must have been really hot. I had no shirt on. And whoever clicked this random picture, it was a picture of me with a chicken leg in my hand, and someone had clicked the picture just as I had opened my mouth and was about to put it in my mouth. And I was leaning forward and I had this big belly, which I didn't actually have. I probably had a bit of extra weight on.
(00:22:00):
But just that clicking that moment in time, that was the only other time in my life where I've looked at a picture and gone, is that me? And I was like, that's me. Look at me. And as I say, I'm not into fat shaming either. I have never forced myself to have the perfect body, only the body that I was happy with, and that's all that really matters to me. I see people half my age with abs, and I've never had that body type. My abs poke out at times throughout my life, but I'm not built that way. But I've always had a waste and I've always felt very fit. And literally last August was the last time I sort of looked at myself, and even then I wasn't ashamed. I was just a bit shocked that I've done it, but I didn't think for one minute that I couldn't rectify it. I was like, okay, I've got to fix this. And I did.
Brock Ashby (00:23:04):
And I think that's one thing that we can't forget as well, is what you can actually do with your body, which is where I always tend to go. It's not always about having abs or having this or that, but what you can do with your body is very impressive. And often I think that should be the goal. Yes, there's a time and point where we should, okay, let's really dial down and go for abs, or we're going away on holiday, we're getting married, or I just want to feel confident with my shirt off. There are time for those goals. But I think beyond that, we also have to look at what we actually do with our body and what you do with dancing and with gym now, especially as you've really challenged your strength. That is amazing. And often I would think that would be more important than having abs.
Thern Reynolds (00:23:57):
Oh, absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:23:57):
Everyone's different. But for you and your career and where you're right, being strong and being able to hold your own, especially with your Cory and everything that you're doing, that's super important. And I think often people just set this random goal. I want to have abs just because that's what they see on social media's, or there's a fitness model, he's got abs. I guess I'll just try look like him. And often it doesn't fit the criteria of what you actually need in your life.
Thern Reynolds (00:24:22):
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with that. As an example, when push comes to shove, when I was working last week physically, so demanding the repetition of doing what I do, spending all day teaching and dancing and showing people hour after hour with no break, I just remember that the woman that I was working with, she happened to buy me a chocolate chip cookie that day, one of those big chocolate chip cookies, but it was sitting in a bag. But I actually got to a point, I think it was near the end of the fourth hour that from going and going and going and going, that if I had this moment where I actually felt quite lightheaded and I suddenly thought, oh gosh, I felt like my blood sugar level had just dropped to a point where I just started to feel quite faint. And I reached for that cookie and I ate about half of it.
(00:25:21):
It was one of those giant ones, and I sort of ate about half of it, and after a few minutes, I could feel my body. It just needed that hit at the time. And if I have to choose between my wellbeing and just having a quick sugar spike and eating a half a cookie, then starving myself to have abs, I'm going to pick the cookie or I'm going to pick the orange juice or whatever's close by over that every time, because I think I couldn't test starve yourself for those kind of gains. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Brock Ashby (00:25:54):
Once again, it's about performance as well, especially with your work at the detriment. If you're like, oh, no cookie's bad, I'm going to starve myself. I'm going to wait and then have a salad or whatever. But often carbohydrates, fats, that isn't something that we should step away from or try and avoid, especially with high physical activity levels. And when you have a decent amount of calories, you can have that food and what we talked about before, and it's not going to negatively impact you. If anything, it'll make a diet more sustainable and enjoyable for you, and it will help fuel your workouts or fuel your performance in your career.
Thern Reynolds (00:26:33):
Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:26:35):
I have a big amount of calories per day. I have to eat at least 3,500 per day or else I'll lose weight. And if I want to try and maintain or build muscle or get stronger, I have to be in a surplus or at least maintenance. And I'm not afraid to post the stuff that I eat because it's like, well, it's just for me. It doesn't mean you should eat three burgers at lunchtime. That's what I did on Sunday. I went to Grilled. I got a Zen Hen Burger, I got a Chicken and Bri Burger, and then I got a Simply Grilled burger, like three burgers. Seriously, it was probably like 1500 calories. But what you don't see is I've trained six days that week I did three juujitsu sessions, and they're probably about 90 minutes to two hours in duration. So I'm expending so many calories. I'm six foot, I'm 90 kg. There is a lot that's going on just to keep it moving. And then I back that up with 10,000 steps a day and all these workouts. That's what you have to do. And I guess that's the danger as well. If you just look on social media and just see what people are eating and what people look like, you're like, well, that's okay. I guess I'll just do that. But it's for each person.
Thern Reynolds (00:27:53):
Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:27:53):
It's all individual.
Thern Reynolds (00:27:54):
And that's what I've found with the workouts and with the programme too, is that, and I saw the results of some of the other clients that were in the challenge, and I can see that everyone had some amazing results from some of the other people in the challenge, but I noticed that none of us had the same results.
Brock Ashby (00:28:13):
Yeah,
Thern Reynolds (00:28:14):
It's interesting. People were seeing the pictures of other clients and seeing the different weight loss in different places or the muscle gain in different places, and we're all doing the same workout and applying the same rules, but just different bodies are different bodies. And so we all ended up with our own personal results, and all of them are fantastic. One is not better than the other. I mean, even though you, and I'm going to say it again, even though you made me the winner and I was chill, I don't think that necessarily means either that my effort was any better than anyone. I think we all put in some effort and you, sorry, I'm going off track now, but you kept the amount of communication that we get from you, even in that group situation. It just keeps, it's just often I've said to Mark and I've thought to myself, how do you even find the hours in the day to communicate as much as you do, plus do everything that you do? I think that's one of the best thing about the groups and promoting that communication within the group, so we can all talk to each other. And I don't think there's a single comment on our Facebook group that you don't respond to personally or in some positive way. And I think that plays a huge part in Built By Brock as well.
Brock Ashby (00:29:36):
Yeah, well, that's what I
Thern Reynolds (00:29:37):
Strive for. You don't feel like you're on your own.
Brock Ashby (00:29:39):
Yeah, that's what I strive for. So I created, built by Brock a month before, or a couple of months before the actual challenge began. So August, it was probably a couple of months, maybe July 30th, 31st. I kind of started it, and I really wanted to try and create a community, especially with Covid, because Covid was really strong at this time. We were all at home. I was at home myself too, and I was like, man, I want a place. Well, first of all, I guess more cost effective than working with me so I can have more people. But then this communication, that's why people get personal training face-to-face because yes, they want guidance in their training and their nutrition, but they also want, I guess someone to ask questions and someone to come to just to really say, oh, that workout was good, or this could have been better, or blah, blah, blah.
(00:30:32):
So I wanted to create that as well. And that's why we do the coaching calls now and why I'm always in the Facebook group, because that's often just what we want, like a community or just accountability, support, accountability, support, support, support and support. Because it's so easy to, I always say it's easier to give up on yourself than it is to give up on someone else because no one's keeping you accountable, but, and if it's just you, I'm all for hard work. And yes, it's me against the world, but it's also, that's why people get coaches, and that's why sport teams have coaches so they can get that guidance.
Thern Reynolds (00:31:07):
Well, let me tell you, over the course of my entire fitness journey, I have had at times personal trainers in real life, and none of them have helped me achieve what you have. I've had personal trainers in person that stand there and they're on their phones, and as well as being a performer, oh, don't get
Brock Ashby (00:31:30):
Me started on the phones, man.
Thern Reynolds (00:31:32):
I'm also a teacher. I teach dance and singing students at an advanced level. I know what it's like to stand one-on-one with a student, or to have to maintain the energy of a class full of 30 brilliant dancers for 90 minutes. That's my responsibility. I have to motivate that class. I have to get results. I have to make them feel like they're achieving something. So I know a fake when I see it, and I've so often, and look, I haven't had a lot of trainers, but the ones that I have, I literally have said, look, this isn't working because I just don't, I kind of feel like their function is there to motivate me and to help me achieve what I want to achieve. And I've just honestly, and even the sessions that we have one-on-one
Brock Ashby (00:32:27):
Through the phone,
Thern Reynolds (00:32:28):
Through the phone, I feel like sometimes I'm like, I just wish, oh God, I wish he couldn't see me. Right now, I am struggling, but you know what? You count me through every rep. I know that you're watching me and for an hour, I don't feel for one second. And we chat in between, but you keep me on my time limits, you keep me on my toes, and it's actually far more productive than any other training session that I've ever had.
Brock Ashby (00:32:55):
Yeah, mate. That's one thing that really got under my skin when I first started personal training. So I started, well, I've done a few gyms, but I guess the worst experience I had was my final gym in Sydney where yeah, people were on their phone. I remember seeing this guy and he was busy, and I really don't understand how he was busy. Maybe he was charging $10 a session or something, but he would literally have his phone. He would have his phone down by the charger, and you know how the Charger's only maybe one metre long. So he's down, cro down, literally facing away from his client who's doing back
Thern Reynolds (00:33:36):
Squats,
Brock Ashby (00:33:37):
And he's on his phone, his phone's charged. I'm like, man, what is more important right now? Do you really? And he did that for the whole session, and people started complaining. But the thing that I hated the most about it was when people would see him, and he was right by the entrance of the gym, which was even worse, people would think, oh, that's what personal trainers are like.
(00:33:57):
And then I would have my clients and they would get a completely different experience, personalised programme. I'm there, I'll carry their towels, I'll get them water if they need all this kind of stuff. But then there was such a difference. And that's one thing that's always been really frustrating as personal trainings. There's no real, I don't know, your level one, your level two, your level three go with this guy, he's this and this guy's that. It's just like there's a really low barrier to entry, and it's like a lucky dip. You would've had people that were on their phone that would've annoyed you, but maybe there was someone else at that gym that would've been really great for you.
Thern Reynolds (00:34:31):
Well, look, the difference is that, and I think, and again, I can relate to you in some ways with what I do, is that there's a very big difference between somebody who works for a job and someone who loves what they do. And I've never felt in my career in professional musical theatre, when I get to go into the theatre, I don't feel like I'm working. Yes, the hours are long and you can live at the theatre, or I can spend hour upon hour teaching, but I actually love it. And I think that's the difference. I don't do what I do to make money, God forbid.
(00:35:06):
And I know that in that sense is what I'm saying. But of course, I do it to make money as you do too. We want a nice life for ourselves. But you can spot the difference between somebody that does what they're doing because they think, oh, I can charge 90 bucks for this and get away with it. Oh, great, let's do that. And you're laughing all the way to the bank, but you, it's obvious that you love what you do. And because I love what I do, I can see that in you. And so I know that you're not leading me up the garden path rub.
Brock Ashby (00:35:40):
Yeah, I can get
Thern Reynolds (00:35:40):
Away with this with rubbish, and I think your clients are going to spot the difference. I think we all see that. Do you know what I mean then? So you sort of go, oh, this is awesome. And so you want to jump on board that train?
Brock Ashby (00:35:56):
Yeah. Well, actually, I shared this. I did a podcast yesterday with one of the OG personal trainers that I learned from when I first started when I was in this gym where that guy was texting and I was doing his courses, and I was learning in my spare time, and I actually, I walked the gym floor for a while, as you do when you first start to try and pick up clients, Hey, can I help you? My name's Brock. I'm new here. If you need help, let me know whatever, offering free sessions, doing all this kind of stuff just to build up my clientele and show people that I can do what, well, what I say I do or what they want. And I built up my client base relatively quickly in three months. And then after that, I didn't have to walk the gym floor after that because I could maintain my clients, right?
(00:36:43):
Because like you said, I cared and I tried to do the best that I could. And then there's this guy who was on his phone all the time, and he was probably double my age, and he was always walking the floor trying to find new clients, always, just because he wasn't upskilling well, number two, he wasn't passionate either, but he just didn't have the skillset or the passion or the desire to get better to actually maintain a client. So yes, maybe he was doing heaps of sessions, but the lifetime of his clients was probably, I don't know, three weeks to three months, where after three months for me, I didn't have to walk the gym floor ever because I just maintained my clients. Or they would tell someone, or I actually got quite a few people would see me with clients back to back. And then in between me saying goodbye to a client and walking to a new client that was waiting for me, they would say, oh, hey, can I have your number? I want to work with you, type of thing. And that's, people see passion. And I'm not trying to say, oh, I'm such an amazing trainer, but I guess I'm trying to get the fact that when you're passionate and when you're enjoying what you do, you radiate an energy that's like, yeah,
Thern Reynolds (00:37:52):
Absolutely. And you can't fake that best, get more. You can't fake it. You can't. Yeah. And effort equals results. And
Brock Ashby (00:38:01):
A hundred percent
Thern Reynolds (00:38:02):
What you are saying even about your work ethic, it's the same when you're applying it as a client to your actual exercise effort equals results. And that's a life lesson. That's not a gym lesson or a training lesson. It's a life lesson. And I think what exercise can do and what your programmes, your programme, the Built by Brock programme, once I got that part of me together, I was just so much more open to we are lucky, I have a nice life. I'm not going to lie. I don't wake up every morning struggling and thinking, oh God, today's a bad day. How am I going to get through today? We're really lucky. But the programme gave me clarity. It gave me, I was quite down, and it just changed my perspective on life in general.
(00:38:58):
Again, I just felt like it just as soon as I finished the programme and I got with you, I then decided to update my entire musical theatre songbook. So it inspired me to get all my stuff ready for the next part of my career. Even though musicals were shut down in the country with Covid, I learned 15 new songs and worked with a musical director to get, so the challenge led me to that. So all of a sudden I was just finding myself getting organised. That's what winning built by Brock did for me. It just spurred me on to get motivated in other areas of my life as well.
Brock Ashby (00:39:36):
Yeah, that's it. So I always come back to the saying, it's actually one of my favourite quotes, how you do anything is how you do everything. And that's why, well, that's a pure example of that, but that's why I'm, I'm a big fan of the gym and what I was saying earlier, doing things you don't want to do when you don't want to do them is such a power. Once you do that, you feel the results of it. And then for you with your career and just learning 15 new songs, you didn't need to do that, but you've put in work in other areas, you saw results, so you're like, that's right. Maybe if I do it over here, I'll see results as well.
Thern Reynolds (00:40:15):
Yeah, it's absolutely true. What did you say it was? If you do,
Brock Ashby (00:40:19):
How you do anything is how you do everything.
Thern Reynolds (00:40:22):
How you do anything. Yeah. Fantastic.
Brock Ashby (00:40:24):
Yeah, that's one of my favourites. I'd love to know within your career in choreography or also if you're performing, I mean in teaching and or performing, where have you felt the benefits of training or gym? Has there been a moment where you've felt, oh, I was lucky. I was strong enough to do that, or lucky I've been doing training outside to do that. Are there any maybe standout moments or memories where you've experienced that?
Thern Reynolds (00:40:55):
Oh gosh, yeah. When I was, as I said, I'm 49. When I was 44, I could have been 43 or 44, but I don't know if you've ever heard of, there's a big queen musical that's been in London, Australia, all over the world called We Will Rock You. And it was written by Ben Elton, who's an author and musical theatre director. And I went into audition for this particular show. And as I said, at the time, 43 or 44 years old, and every single person that had kind of played that role previously was either mid twenties to mid thirties. It was never someone my age has never been cast in the show. And I remember going along thinking, I dunno about this. I could be a bit old to play this role, but there was something about it that I really liked. And when I walked into the audition room after doing heaps and heaps of auditions into the final callback, because the character's name was Brit or all the characters in Wheel Rock were named after pop stars or rock stars.
(00:42:07):
And the funny thing about my character is that he was the rough, he was the bohemian rough guy, the leader of these crazy band of bohemians, and his name was Brittany Spears, right? So my character's name was Brittany, but I had to talk, he was just rough, had a kilt on. I literally shaved my head, had a mohawk, everything. And I remember that when I walked into the final audition, it was the first time that Ben Elton was actually there. And I walked in and I walked in with jazz flowers, who was the girl that, a great mate of mine. And she ended up playing Oz, who was my girlfriend in the show and named after Ozzy Osborne. And she played Oz. And as we walked in, he stopped us in our tracks, and he literally looked us both up and down. And he went, God could I have had two people that couldn't look more perfect for these roles?
(00:43:04):
And I remember at the time, I remember just thinking as a, again, not that I was old, but I was older. I was just thinking, there's no way I would've got this role had I not been training and keeping myself fit. And I earned in that year. I earned some bloody good money. And I just remember thinking, God, and I'm not saying it was just my body, but my body factored into, because I've got a few tatts as well, and I just think it was right for the character, but my body and my physicality played a huge part in me earning a great amount of money that year and getting that role. So had I not looked the way I looked, had I been unfit, there's no way I would've scored that role. And that was just a moment. I think that's just part of getting older too.
(00:43:55):
You're thinking, oh, and you doubt yourself as you get older and you get into your forties and I was thinking, don't go. You're not going to get this role. They're going to give it to someone younger. You're too old. And you start saying all this stuff to yourself. And really, I think I said that to you when I won the challenge as well, that one of the things that I initially thought was, God, I'm 48, I can't win this challenge. And I started using age as an excuse of ages, a barrier to achieving and what I just realised, well, that's absolute rot. I love that mindset. Yeah, it is. It's complete rot. You can achieve anything. You may not do it as quickly as you would therefore when you're 25 or 30 or a bit younger, but it still actually happens. So yeah, that's the one that really sticks out in my mind is the moment where I was really proud of myself as a professional dancer and a singer and actor. The self-discipline. I mean, I started doing this professionally when I was 16. I mean, I've been doing it for 33 years professionally, and that takes an awful, awfully big amount of discipline physically after, I mean, I've been performing in musical theatre longer than you've been alive.
Brock Ashby (00:45:07):
Yeah, I'm 28. I'm 28. There
Thern Reynolds (00:45:09):
You go. See? So I started my professional career on stage five years before you were even born. So I've had to keep up this physical journey of mine for all of those years and considering where I am now physically and what I'm still achieving, I'm bloody thrilled with my project. Yeah, you're in an amazing spot. But I'm also grateful that before I met you, I was going to the gym and I was maintaining a body, but I was nowhere near as strong as I'm now because I was doing the same workouts every week. And that's the biggest thing that I've noticed. I haven't grown hugely in size, but I didn't want to. And that's the other thing. But what I've noticed and what I wanted was I just feel so, so much stronger Now, remember when we started, I couldn't even do because I've got an injury with when I broke my finger.
(00:46:05):
And so I always said to you, doing chin-ups or just doing a pull up was I could never get past four or five, and I'm knocking out 12, four sets of 12 now that to me, that in itself is the ability just to pull my body up and go, boom, and do that was like, that's where I've really noticed the most positive. I like, oh, wow. Or bench pressing 80, 90 kilos, which I've never done before. And that's not a lot. I know in the scheme of things. Well, it's still a lot. No, but for me it was because I'd never wanted to go past bench pressing 60 kilos because again, I never wanted to lift heavy because I had to worry about my career. And as soon as I felt like things were getting too heavy, that could possibly cause me an injury or accident.
(00:46:55):
So I pull back you back off. And what I've learned by with you, and I've had to back off all those years, but now that I'm learning with these programmes, I'm actually finding that my strength is increasing. I'm probably stronger at 49 than I have ever been in terms of lifting weight, but the confidence that comes along with doing that is what I have now. I don't go, oh, I shouldn't do this because I'm going to get hurt or blah, blah, blah. I just sort of go, no, no, you can challenge yourself this week. Let's go up to 90 and see how we go. And yeah, I might only do three or four reps, but that's more than I did before.
Brock Ashby (00:47:29):
Yeah, exactly. But it, it's confidence. I was the same when I was just getting into lifting, which I was quite young, but I had no idea what I was doing. I would never really push the envelope in terms of, because I was worried about getting injured, especially with things like squats and deadlifts. No one was helping me. I was just going off the cuff. I would do the classic, just look at a big dude in the gym and be like, I'm going to do that.
Thern Reynolds (00:47:56):
Okay, yeah, we've all done that.
Brock Ashby (00:47:57):
And then as soon as he puts the equipment down, you're run over and you do exactly what they were doing. So I was literally doing that. I didn't, didn't lack confidence, but I didn't have the courage or the confidence to be like, okay, I'm going to do as heavy as I can for this amount of reps, and that's why I'm so focused on form. But actually lifting heavy weight isn't something to be concerned about. Obviously if your form goes out the window and you're ego lifting, that's a different story. But actually, there's a quote, and I'm probably going to stuff it up. I don't really know it, but it's like if you think going to the gym or being strong is unsafe, try not being strong. It's much more unsafe to be weak than it is to be strong. And if you're doing things right in the gym and getting stronger, that's actually much better than just doing nothing and remaining weak.
Thern Reynolds (00:48:59):
Well, we were actually, again, mark and I were having a conversation that was only a couple of days ago, and he said to me that this is a question that I have for you. How did you come up with your programmes? Was it trial and error? Have you just spent years finding what works and what, how do you, that's what I find most because we were chatting about it. He's like, how does he know? Is this through trial and error? How did you get where you've gotten?
Brock Ashby (00:49:29):
Yeah, so actually my wife asked me the
Thern Reynolds (00:49:32):
Same questions. Sorry, I'm asking the questions now. No,
Brock Ashby (00:49:34):
No, no, it's fine. It's good. It's good because actually, my wife asked me, I do her programmes as well, and she was like, how do you know what to do? She was like, oh, I couldn't do, she said, oh, I couldn't do glute bridges, so I did a Bulgarian split squat. And I said, oh, I probably wouldn't replace it with that. And then she was like, why? And then she asked, oh, well, how do you do my programmes overall? It's a good question, man. And it's not something that you can just say, oh, it was this, because it's a balance of what the research says. It's a balance of what the goal is, and it's also a balance of what has worked for me and what has worked for other clients. So that's why when people do online coaching and they haven't been a face-to-Face Coach, I just think it's absolutely absurd.
(00:50:17):
I'm like, you haven't seen what works for people. You don't know what people go through face-to-face or how their body moves. So before I went online, I was face-to-face for six years. I did tonnes of hours on the gym floor. I was there from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM most days. And you see what works. You see what people struggle with. Males, females, overweight, underweight, really strong, really weak. You see what works. So that has really helped me decide what population or what person I'm working with, what the end goal will be. So it's always reverse engineering what do I want the goal to be? So that's one. And dealing with who's in front of you, and then there's like what the research says, or just knowing anatomy, what a push is, what a pull is. Like for example, there's horizontal push, which is your chest press movements where you're pushing horizontally.
(00:51:14):
There's vertical push, which is like shoulders overhead. You have horizontal pull where you're doing rows, then you have vertical pull where you're doing, and then there's other ones for the lower body too. And you kind of have to look at it as in, I never want to be too out of balance. So if I'm doing a lot of pushing, I have to balance that with a lot of pulling. Or as you create imbalance, which is what you faced, your chest wasn't strong enough for your back, and then that's where you started to get injured. And that's where a lot of, especially dudes get injured. They're doing bench press, they're doing lateral raises, they're doing all this chest and shoulder work, actually the opposite to you. They forget about their back, and then they have sore elbows, and then they have terrible posture because their chest is tight and then it leads to trouble.
(00:52:03):
So there's that experience mixed with, I guess, knowledge of anatomy and movement patterns. And then, yeah, I guess that's pretty much it. It's a balance of being a practitioner, being a personal trainer, seeing what happens. But then it's also, you have to mix it with what science comes out, because there's always a lot coming out in terms of how many sets to do, how many sets are able to allow people to recover and push at the same time. And everyone's different. But when I'm doing programmes like Built by Brock, where it's like the goal is to create a male physique where we're predominantly focused on upper body, we don't forget lower body. We generally want chest, shoulders, back arms. There's certain things we want to follow, so maybe I'll turn up sets or volume in that certain place. But then, yeah, it's hard, man. And then there's different techniques like we'll use drop sets or we'll use wrist pause methods, or we'll use tempo.
(00:53:04):
For example, in the Christmas Crunch challenge, we did the tempo contrast method where we did five reps slow, five reps fast on the same muscle group, and that's a new one. When I first did that, I was like, what's this? I've never used tempo as a variable. You just think sets and reps or three sets of four sets of eight, five sets of five type of thing. But then when you think, excuse me, it's like four sets of 10, but then in the 10, the speed of the reps are different. That's right. You're like, whoa.
Thern Reynolds (00:53:38):
I think I mentioned to you a little while ago, the tempos changed my life remembering to look at the tempos. Initially it was like, oh God, you've just done that whole exercise three times, but you didn't check the tempo. And so now when I look at the app and when I look at my programme, just double check the tempo all the time, and I actually think that's been an integral part of gaining my strength is learning that control and the tempos really changed. I might've emailed you about that quite a while back because I remember he really did, because that for me, you're just trying to, in our minds, before you have information, you're just trying to struggle to get reps out. And I've realised now sometimes in my programmes, you'll say, you need to do six reps. And I know that sometimes you say, look, if you can only get out four, then have a rest and then do two more if need to do six.
(00:54:31):
That's the only thing from you that I've ignored, and I shouldn't say ignored, but I haven't always done that because I want to, when I go back and each week when I start a new programme. I like to go back to the week before to check in the app what I actually did. And if how I performed last time, I did the same workout. And so just for the first couple of weeks, I'd just like to put in whatever it is that I could do, just so that I've got a benchmark to look at when I go the next week and think, I only could only manage three of those last week and let's try to get four. Let's try to get the full six. But then by the end of it, I always find that by the time I get to the third and fourth week, I've achieved the amount, honestly.
Brock Ashby (00:55:14):
Yeah.
Thern Reynolds (00:55:15):
You know what I mean? And I shouldn't say honestly, but without
Brock Ashby (00:55:18):
Taking a break.
Thern Reynolds (00:55:20):
That's it. I'm sorry if that's a little bit naughty, but No,
Brock Ashby (00:55:24):
No, no, no, no. But the only point of say doing four instead of doing six is if you accidentally or if you really think, okay, I've got this, and then you don't get it. The goal is not to go, I'm just going to increase the weight anyway and just do four and just see, that's not the mindset. You always go for the reps that are there, but if you can't and you fall short, then that's okay. Just take rest and do it and then realise, okay, that was too heavy. Then maybe you pull it back as opposed, that's right. Oh yeah, I'll just do four, take a break and do six, because that's cheating. Then you're,
Thern Reynolds (00:55:54):
Yeah, it's cheating.
Brock Ashby (00:55:54):
Literally saying you did a wait for six rep, but you didn't, so
Thern Reynolds (00:55:57):
That was never, and that's another thing with the initial challenge, I did not cheat. And I think that's the easy thing to do sometimes, is to go, ah, you know what? I've got nine, but I'll put down 10 and I've thought of it. No, but you do. Oh, we
Brock Ashby (00:56:14):
All do. We
Thern Reynolds (00:56:15):
All do. Because again, because of that accountability, I don't want Brock to go, oh look, it's just been really crap this week, but it crosses your mind to cheat. And I just never have, even though I've been tempted to go, oh, let's just put it down. Like, oh, whatever. But no, and that's the other thing too, and again, that comes to a discipline thing about just holding the accountability, as you say, holding yourself accountable, being accountable to you as a coach. Honestly, it's all or nothing. And if you can't do that, then the only person you're really cheating is yourself. And in those moments of doubt, I don't know what, I had my little voice in my head that goes, no, no, no. Come on, come on. Get through it. Push through it. Don't lie. Be honest, but
Brock Ashby (00:57:10):
The achieve, but you listen to that voice, the louder that voice gets. That's one thing that I've definitely noticed. And that's why I was saying once again, to come back to doing the things you don't want to do or listening to that voice that you don't want to listen to. The more you do it, the easier it gets.
Thern Reynolds (00:57:26):
Less full of moments like that. You're going to have to do plenty of things, and why not just get into the habit of sucking it up and really, because you just have to move through.
Brock Ashby (00:57:34):
Yeah, because it comes much easier in the long run. I want to be aware of time and just kind of wrap up the podcast with this question. So this is the Better with Brock podcast. It's about being better in all areas. Yes. Predominantly fitness, nutrition. I'm a personal trainer. You're into fitness too, but ultimately it's about self-development, which I'm a huge fan of as well. So one of the questions that I have for you is what do you do every day that ensures that you become better or that helps you become better? It doesn't have to be fitness, it doesn't have to be work. It can be anything in life, but it's more so about the fact of becoming better in way
Thern Reynolds (00:58:16):
Every day I get up and I do my chores and I call them chores. First thing, I make a cup of coffee. I can make my latte at home and I don't even sit down to have the latte. I take a sip because that magical first sip, which we all love, like man, I love that first big beautiful sip of my coffee in the morning. But then I will start my chores. I will empty the dishwasher. I will, if there's things from the previous night, I like to go to bed with a tidy house. I'm one of those people. I like a clean, tidy home. Mark is the opposite cyclone tornado mark.
(00:58:57):
If I put something away, he'll pull it out. So we monsoon mark, monsoon mark, let's call him that. So for me, I don't start my day until my home is in order, and bed making is the biggest one for me. I have to make my bed. I have to make sure that when I leave the house to do things that I want to do for me, that I'm coming home to a clean living space. That's my thing. That's how I start my day every day. And some days I get a bit tired. I'm like, or whatever, but clean, tidy home.
Brock Ashby (00:59:32):
Thats
Thern Reynolds (00:59:33):
How I
Brock Ashby (00:59:33):
Think. How you do anything is how you do everything. Right.
Thern Reynolds (00:59:36):
That's it. That's it. So yeah, get up and do. I don't get up and sit down and I get up and once I'm up, I'm up.
Brock Ashby (00:59:45):
What I do, I'm the same with my coffee. So I do that. I make the coffee and I could be better. I always make the bed Today I did the dishwasher.
(00:59:56):
So yeah, I'm the same. I can't work. If the house is a mess, I struggle because my mind feels, if I'm trying to, let's say we're doing this podcast, my mind is like, you need to put that glass in the dishwasher or you need to put your clothes on, or you need to hang this out or you need to wipe down this or that. I'm the same. Yeah, so true. But it just helps me. The way I look at it's, it eliminates all friction so that when you actually sit down to do what you need to do, when you do sit down, you're focused.
Thern Reynolds (01:00:29):
Today, when I sat down here this morning with you, everything's done over there and I thought, work, I'll just sit myself on the couch. The cushions are there, blah, blah, blah. Everything's in order. Otherwise I'd be doing the same thing. I'd be sitting here going, oh God. I just wouldn't feel like I could have had this conversation without getting stuff done first.
Brock Ashby (01:00:47):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
Thern Reynolds (01:00:49):
Even though it was only half an hour. I do. You know what I mean? It still had to be done. It had to be done. But I try to do it the night before now so I don't have to wake up to it. That's another thing. Try and finish the day in a clean way at the end of the day, pack the dishwasher, get stuff done at the end of the day so you can go to bed and wake up without having to do that,
Brock Ashby (01:01:14):
Without it hanging over you being
Thern Reynolds (01:01:15):
Like,
Brock Ashby (01:01:16):
Oh, I have to do this. I have to do that.
Thern Reynolds (01:01:18):
Yeah. And here we've ended our conversation talking about housework,
Brock Ashby (01:01:22):
Talking about dishwashers and stack in them. How exciting,
Thern Reynolds (01:01:26):
Exciting, there you go. Built by Brock podcast listeners.
Brock Ashby (01:01:29):
Yeah, if you've learned anything, make sure you do your dishes. Do it at night or do it when you wake up. Hey man, mate. Well I appreciate your time, man. I know you're a busy dude and super. You have things to do in the day. I'm sure you've got to a workout to get in or something, so Yeah, I do, mate. I appreciate your time. It's an honour and mate, honestly, and even coaching you mate, it'ss an absolute pleasure. Your energy in the Facebook group as well has been great pushing people and as we said, a community's a big part of Built by Brock, so just having that voice and especially coming from a challenge winner being like, come on guys, you can do this. Or adding your 2 cents in here and there. It's been awesome, man. So I appreciate,
Thern Reynolds (01:02:07):
Well, honestly, and I appreciate you a lot too. I appreciate everything that you've done for me. You're just such a down to earth. Say it like it is kind of guy, and I just relate so well to people like you and I completely respect your knowledge and your support. You're fantastic and I can't thank you enough for kicking my butt back into Hey, thanks man. I appreciate really, really, so thank you. Have a great day, mate. Awesome
Brock Ashby (01:02:35):
Man. Yeah, you too. Enjoy your workout and I'll talk to you very
Thern Reynolds (01:02:38):
Soon. Okay, sweet. See you. Thanks brother. No worries.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up guys and girls? This is Brock Ashby here. Welcome to episode number 15 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Tony Ji. So to give you a bit of background about him, he was the guy that all of the personal trainers here in Sydney when I first started at Fitness First Market Street in 2016. So six years ago they were all talking about go and see bat, and I was looking at all these exercises. I saw the front foot elevated dumbbell split squat for the first time and I asked the trainer, where'd they get that from? And they were like, oh, it's Tony. So I signed up for his courses immediately and I went out and did the course. I think I did all the levels, fat loss hypertrophy. There was some cardio in there as well. And he's one of the big reasons why I developed as a personal trainer and also saw more than just, I don't know, personal training as just a fun thing to do. He really showed me the science behind it, how to get really good. So massive props to Tony right here. Thanks for coming on the podcast, man. It's my
Tony Boutagy (00:01:04):
Pleasure. I appreciate it. It's great to hear that story and to see the kids like you coming through and becoming a really big deal. So I'm honoured.
Brock Ashby (00:01:13):
Yeah, well thanks mate. But I want to give props to you because your course is out there in, well, it's in Mossman where we are now. Where I moved. It was the first time, as I said, where it was like I said to you earlier in the podcast, it was evidence-based, everything was backed by science and you were obsessed with books. You had the library there and we were going in and looking at you and you were saying this book and that book. And I still screenshot books that you read at the moment and I go and get them and kind of read up on them. What do you think of, well first of all, can you explain I guess what evidence-based fitness or the community is, because it's pretty hot right now, everyone likes to claim their evidence-based. Can you explain that in layman's terms to people and I guess what's your thoughts on I would call it like a movement.
Tony Boutagy (00:02:04):
It's a movement because when you consider where the fitness industry has come from before that it really wasn't driven by science, it was driven by gurus and whoever was a huge name, who would have a huge following. And I'm saying he, because the Giants before that, they were generally males and they loved having followers. It was almost cult-like, and you as a trainer, you would put after your name who you did courses with, that was your, it wasn't, did you have a Bachelor of Sports Science or a master's you would say comma, whoever you did the course with. And a lot of these folks, they knew each other, so they was huge rivalry amongst the big names.
Brock Ashby (00:02:49):
And can you drop us some of the big names just for some people out there?
Tony Boutagy (00:02:51):
Sure. So in the nineties, the biggest name initially was Paul Check by far and away. And so they were affectionately known as Chuckies, right. And Paul had a very physiotherapy like approach. So there was assessments and there were progressions and it was, he really popularised Swiss ball training and functional training before anyone else did. A lot of people like to claim functional training, but Paul Check really was the father, Paul check Ian King and Charles Quin. They ran courses together, seminars together, and eventually they had falling outs. And so they all ran their own courses and Ian King is still around running amazing courses because you can't get better than Ian. He really is. He's been doing it so long. His brain sees the training process in a very unique way. So Ian King's fantastic Charles Poll, Quin is no longer with us, but he had a falling out with the other guys and he said, I'm going to run my own courses. And people would claim to be a Quin devotee or a Che or a Ian King. So they were the biggest names by far.
(00:04:07):
There were a few things like you would see with coaches where it was their experience. If you question that with science to say, well, if you do that exercise that's been shown scientifically to impose a very high sheer force on your back when you're doing a, I dunno, good morning or a rounded back, good morning. And Charles would be famous for saying, yeah, but how many gold medalists has that researcher trained? And the followers loved that because he could tell stories at the 1988 Olympics, I saw this and I trained this and there was this cult-like following. And in time a lot of people took issue with it and called him on it. And folks like Brett Contreras who has done a PhD, he would say, well, hang on Charles, this is not right. You're making this claim and the science doesn't show that to be the case. So there came a movement and folks like Brad Schoenfeld, Brett Contreras, these are a PhD level thinkers who were trainers and coaches and they really brought in a higher standard of how do you know what, is that a correct way? Is there an alternative way of viewing things? Is it right? And that they like to use the term evidence informed rather than so much based because they also, that an eight week study on university students, it is not the highest level of evidence. It's not like medication. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:05:37):
And there's a lot of cherry picking as well. Some people will cherry pick studies just to back up their confirmation
Tony Boutagy (00:05:41):
Bias. Yeah, it, it's fraught with problems. And that's why I prefer the term like they do as evidence and forms and you've got to read the science and the data and it helps you, but you also need to know its limitations that if you're looking to write a better programme based on science, well that will only take you so far. You do need to be informed by what coaches have done over many decades and many years. So I know at least in my reading, I certainly read science every day, I read science, but we're not in a basic science field like chemistry or physics where that's all you do is read science. We have to read what other coaches do and you chat with them and your conversations are how do you approach training a Paralympic athlete or a swimmer or a physique competitor? What's your approach over 12 months? And that you blend with what we know about science and biochemistry and anatomy, and then you form your own approach to doing things.
Brock Ashby (00:06:34):
So that's more, yes, you are I guess based in evidence or on evidence, but you still mix that with being a practitioner and mixing what's in front of you. And that's one thing I guess I learned or have been learning along the way is there's I guess a scientific way of programming that's going to be perfect. But also there's the client, which is like, as you said, we're not just chemicals or we're not just sitting in a beaker. We have emotions, we have behavioural problems or habits that we have to take into consideration. And sometimes doing a five by five for someone would be a really great idea, but then they just don't want to do it. So you have to kind of mix that in. So what would you say your approach to training is?
Tony Boutagy (00:07:16):
It definitely is, as you've hinted at, it's a blend of science. So what we know about the training process and how to grow muscle, how do you lose weight? It's grounded in what we understand with the basic principles of science, but it's also been observation, trying to pay attention to clients because that's really all I've done as an adult since I became a trainer. 18, I'm now 45 and I've done nothing else. So
Brock Ashby (00:07:45):
It's a long run.
Tony Boutagy (00:07:46):
Yeah, I counted a few years ago I was at a conference and they asked me how many sessions I'd done and I had to quickly do some calculations because in the early years, you know what it's like when you start, that's all you do. You work weekends and you train people all day
Brock Ashby (00:08:01):
And you're counting sessions as well every session.
Tony Boutagy (00:08:04):
Absolutely. So I've trained over six, I've done over 60,000 sessions over my life. Wow. You pay attention and you can learn things about certain personality types and anatomy types, what they're more suited to. Now interestingly, science is doing interesting stuff. Now, one leg might do leg press doing a drop set, and the other leg over eight weeks might do not a drop set, but equate the repetitions, like do three sets with rest to see individual differences. Because when you look at data and it looks at drop sets versus straight sets as an example, you might have two people who just don't respond and you might have six that do, and are they just outliers or was the volume insufficient for them or what was it? And that's why we now need to start, we need to see data which compares you with you. And that's what a wise personal trainer would do is to realise, well, this is actually not working for this person and maybe they are different kind of responder.
(00:09:05):
And this goes back to, I read a lot of coaches who are really successful and there's two coaches that stand out amongst everyone else. And er, the German rowing coach, he's had medalists at every Olympic games since 1972 up until Rio, so amazing. The other is Anatoli Bondek who is a hammer thrower, he was also at the Soviet Union and then went to America. He's very famous for saying that there's essentially three types of athletes. You've got those who thrive on volume, those that thrive on intensity and those that thrive on variety up until even recent times. I would always try and work out whether a client was lots of sets or really heavy loads, but not a lot of volume. But in time you realise, well, maybe 30% of my clients are frequency responders and require constant change to the variables. And he had already worked that out in the seventies. So reading what good coaches have done and how they see the world, whether they're in a completely different sport, you might not work. I don't work in hamath throw. I've never trained a hamath thrower neither. And that's all he does is train hammer throwers. But his understanding of the training process is what I would learn and then apply it to a physique competitor or a fat loss guy. So
Brock Ashby (00:10:22):
When you look at someone or get someone that is working with you, how do you determine, initially you must have a bit of a hunch they look like they can handle a bit of weight or they look like more volume people or they need a lot of variety. How do you determine which way you start? I think that'll help a lot of people. If they're just kind of getting into it, how can they identify what will be best for them to save them years of experimenting? Because even myself, I started training when I was 14, but I don't think I made any progress for about 10 years. I was just trying to figure it out.
Tony Boutagy (00:10:55):
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of proposed ways of doing it that is find out somebody's one RMM and then give them 80% of that and then ask them to do as many reps as possible to find out whether they're a fast or slow twitcher. And that's been generally validated in science, that if you bomb really quickly, so you take 80% of your one and you bomb at four reps, then your fast twitch. So it would argue that you would do more work in that higher one RMM work intensity. And I remember this one guy I trained, he became an ultra runner, but before he became an ultra runner, I gave him 80% and we had to stop him at 15 reps. He is just still going. It's like, you can stop now. So clearly he's blessed to be able to go all night, and that's what ultra athletes do. I find the easiest way is that for all clients, I always start with preparation work, regardless of what their goals are, they have to learn how to use their body properly.
Brock Ashby (00:11:57):
And actually I'd love you to talk about that. One of the biggest things I took away from you is client preparation work. When I took in clients, first of all, when I first started as personal trainer, we talked about this before we jumped on, they kind of just want your money and then they want you to pay rent, and then they start educating you on the way. But ultimately their goal is just to have you as a personal trainer, paying rent and qualified. So you kind of get chucked into the gym with not too much knowledge. And even though you may have the best intent I've always had with my clients, I don't think I've always done looking back now, I'd definitely do things differently. But what I took away from your course was how to prep a client and how to really take one on board and see where their strengths are, see where their weaknesses are, maybe they have imbalances, how to deal with them, but what's the kind of process that you take them through.
Tony Boutagy (00:12:44):
Sure. Okay. Well,
Brock Ashby (00:12:45):
And that's a
Tony Boutagy (00:12:46):
Pretty long process. Lemme finish off on how do you work out which client is what kind of responded? Well, generally speaking, after a preparation period, I will trial programmes that have either volume-based, max strength-based, intensity based or really diverse. And I'll change the programme every time they train. When they start giving the feedback as I really like that session, then I know that they're that kind of a responder. And that could be 10 sets of three go. That was the best workout I've ever done. So alrighty. You're intensity responder and then there's others and you do 10 sets of 10 or whatever. But it's a 400 rep workout. I feel like I am working and they just love, they thrive it. They don't want to rest. They want you to keep going. And I've got a number of clients and then there's other clients who want a different workout every time they're trained. They have variety responder. But is there
Brock Ashby (00:13:34):
A bit of a balance between variety and just giving them something different every time?
Tony Boutagy (00:13:39):
Yeah, well ideally you shouldn't, unless that's something that a client really thrives on because then they work harder, they can do more work and you don't make them completely different. So for the variety of responders who I have, it's not a completely different workout. Every time they turn, they're different themes or ways of doing things within the same broad heading of, I'm working on shoulders and obliques and glutes and I'll hit 'em from slightly different angles, but to them it's enough of a difference. It's a one Legg Romanian deadlift and it's a one Legg cable and then it's a one leg good morning. And you're cycling through the good exercises based on that pattern. But that's enough for them to buy into it and perform it better because that's everything.
Brock Ashby (00:14:27):
So as a trainer, you can kind look back and you can see, okay, it's horizontal push or horizontal pull and all that, but as a client you're just, oh, getting all this new exercise, it's so fun.
Tony Boutagy (00:14:34):
Totally. So I've got a plan, they dunno the plan, but they're thriving that there's variety and difference. I've already worked out that they're going to do this, this, and this, and I'm working towards something. But because they buy into it, they lift so much better. Their results are so much better compared to a traditional, say, month programme where I'm progressively overloading it each week. The majority do thrive on that, but not everyone does. Now to answer the larger question, how do you approach training or the preparation and this principles that I wish that I invented, but I didn't. I just learned them from every coach who is a good coach because you can't be game match physique all year round. You can't be at peak all year round, which
Brock Ashby (00:15:23):
Is a struggle when you check on social media where people are looking shredded all year round.
Tony Boutagy (00:15:28):
Of course. Yeah, that's right. And this is the difference between smoke and mirrors and the actual reality. You just can't be there. And otherwise they would hold the Olympic Games and Championships every week, every week. So you just peak all year and it doesn't happen. And this still for athletes that I work with, they still get post-competition blues and you explain it to them, we are going to peak. You are now in the pre-competitive phase, and then you're going to peak and then you're going to have some time off and let your body go. You can't push the accelerator like this all the time. And if you haven't come from a dedicated sport where you've gone through years and years and years, you won't understand that and you often are hit psychologically badly with it. And so I view the year in different phases, but everyone always starts with a preparation phase.
(00:16:20):
And the preparation phase is twofold for me. And that is to build work capacity so they can train whatever their goal is better, because the fitter you are and the more general strength and the more balanced you are, you can do more work. And we're in a world of the fitness industry that rewards typically doing more work because if you can do more volume and more intensity and train more frequently, then you will generally get a better result. And the other is to fix weak links. And this is because everyone has imbalances and the imbalances can be between front and back muscles, say quad and hamstringing, they can be left to right limbs, which really common, and they can be between your prime movers and your stabilisers. And the preparation phase allows me that chance to prioritise those areas that I'm just not doing in a fat loss phase or a hypertrophy phase or strength phase, just don't have the luxury. You have to improve strength or do high energy expending training. You don't have time to go and work on ankle stabilisers and your rotator cuff and your grip, but you do that in the gpp now it's not basic, but you just do it. A lot of people, there's a lot of misconceptions that it's the basic training a beginner does is, well, not really only a beginner does beginner training.
Brock Ashby (00:17:39):
So where would your advice lie for people just starting out with training, I guess in some way, shape or form, kind of doing their own client prep. What would you say to someone who's just starting
Tony Boutagy (00:17:54):
Identify what you hate doing and what you suck at because you have to become good at it, it will catch you later. That's the primary rule of thumb, and that's what a trainer is meant to do, is to identify, well, you've done a lot of glute work, but you've done no lower ab work and you've done no ad duct work. All abduction work for your outside glutes. Yeah. So you don't have to not do that, but you have to do a Copenhagen ad deduction, you have to do some reverse leg curls, reverse abdominal curls and maybe some scap and something like that to balance you up.
Brock Ashby (00:18:33):
Yeah. So do you think that that's hard to do. Obviously I'm on social media, there's a lot of people out there posting on social media and they're doing just a glute workout. So then people go to the gym and they go, I'll just do this glute workout, and then they'll find someone else's glute workout and just keep doing that. How do people navigate through that?
Tony Boutagy (00:18:54):
I was listening to a friend talking recently, it must have been last week. And she said, well, I just find a workout online and I just do that. Is that bad? No, I've got two answers. The number one answer is no, of course not. Because it's exercise. It's better than nothing and it's better than nothing. And you're doing something and hopefully it's been designed by somebody who knows what they're doing. So at least it's got a degree of balance. That may or may not be true, but we can be charitable at this stage now. Then the professional answer is, is that the best we can do and will that result in imbalances down the track? It's the same as if I say, bro, I want you to take up swimming just freestyle and all we're going to do is freestyle and we're going to start at 10 minutes and we're going to build it.
(00:19:40):
And that's all you. So then in six months time you're saying, well, my swimming's really improved, but I've got the shoulder ache. Why is that? Well, because done a million internal rotations and no external rotations, so it's not Nobel Prize winning stuff to realise you've got to do some backstroke or you've got to get to the gym and do some external rotations and work on what the sport doesn't do. That makes sense. Everyone understands that. But what about in our industry, which is physique driven and that is, it's rewarded by glute core shoulders, females and say pecs and quads for guys work on that, but equal and opposite work on the opposing muscles that the movement patterns that you love doing work on their equal and opposite. You have to train them, otherwise you will get lumbar problems because your tilt will be so aggressive in the hips and your shoulders will be, I mean, we all see what happens when a guy just does bench and no back, but it's the same for every, if you're doing AB deduction and not ad you're going to have problems. They just don't show up in six months. They show up in time. That's the problem.
Brock Ashby (00:20:46):
And that's one thing I took away massively from your course, especially going through the general pep where I think I probably will stuff up the numbers, but the dumbbell chest press had to be the same as the single arm dumbbell row I think in terms of proportion. And my pull was not very good. I could bench pretty good dumbbells and then I'd try and row and it was pretty average, and then I'd try and do the shoulders and I think they were meant to be 66% of what I could do. And correct me if I'm wrong with the numbers and I couldn't get that either. And then where I really screwed up was the external rotators with I think that was 15% of your chest. And I was absolutely out of balance that way, and I didn't get injured, but I think maybe I caught it early and that's where I, well, as a PT even growing up, like I said, you don't come in the most educated, they just want you through the door.
(00:21:42):
So I was just kind of doing mirror muscles and I was lucky to not get injured, but one thing I did kind of injure myself on was my lower back when I was squatting. And I remember at your course we were looking and I would tilt sometimes at the bottom, and that's one thing that I still focused on to work on to try and stay upright. But it was because unbalanced, I had to do a lot of single leg work for a while. And I think one major thing that I see now, a lot of people jumping into squatting, jumping into deadlift straight away, even though they haven't qualified themselves to do it, how would you judge people to say, okay, you can squat or you can deadlift because people think you have to squat and you have to deadlift to get big legs or to get big glutes or to get whatever they want. That's what they strive for. How can they qualify themselves?
Tony Boutagy (00:22:29):
Yeah, this comes back to the evidence-based principles we're talking about at the beginning. There's a lot of very strong opinions in the fitness industry, and some of them, they're just not the person giving them, frankly, and it sounds terrible. They shouldn't really have an opinion. They don't know enough about it to give an opinion. And you see this, well, you should only squat or only deadlift, really, that's not how muscle works. So if you take a muscle and you do single leg deadlifts and you work to failure or very close to it, and you match the volume based with double leg deadlifts, you take a sample of muscle, you look at it, you're not going to say, oh, well this is the deadlift muscle. We can tell, right? You're working deadlifts. The muscle doesn't know. It just knows effort and fibre recruitment. So whether you're recruiting that fibre with one leg or with two legs, the muscle doesn't care. It just wants muscle fibre recruitment or high levels of recruitment. And so to answer your question of, I use Mark McKey, he's a strength coach from Queensland, a very famous strength coach. He would say, you've got to earn the right to progress. And before I was a trainer, I was a guitarist and I wanted to, I've seen
Brock Ashby (00:23:47):
That. Sorry to jump in. I've seen that on Instagram. I saw you kind of busting
Tony Boutagy (00:23:50):
That out. Yeah, I was in covid lockdown, so I was like, what am I going to do? I'm going to pull out the guitar. And then I felt really bad. So then I wasn't even looking at my phone for a few days, but so when I picked up the guitar, I wanted to play everything and I would look up to these people who could shred. It's like, I'm going to shred. It's like I don't even know where my BT string is and how to. So you've got to learn this. And anyone who's played a musical instrument understands that you've got to learn to read music and your notes and your technique and your picking, and then you can play your me Hendrix in the gym. Stop that. I'm just going to learn how to do a snatch group deadlift standing on a podium with bands.
(00:24:25):
Okay, well, let's deconstruct it. So to do that means you can do a snatch group deadlift. To do that means that you can do a deadlift to do that, you can do a Romanian deadlift back extension, good morning hip extension. So in my programme, so what I'll teach any trainer is foundational movement patterns that teach a client to move through their hip, but create rigidity at their trunk so they're not moving their trunk when you don't want them to move it. And then they're not going to load that. But then I need to make sure that left and right are balanced, which is what you alluded to. So there are ratios that if you can squat X, then your Bulgarian squat should be Y or your front step up should be W. And there's ratios, but the ratios are kind of, oh, they're helpful. They're guides to know whether you are ballpark or way off, but most importantly, they show left or right. And that's the issue because if you can do a weight, you should do for 10 with your right leg, but you can do six with your left. Well, why are you loading a barbell when you're doing a squat? Because you've got one leg that's 40% stronger, it will do all the work and you'll see a shift and your lumbar disc will be calling out for mercy.
Brock Ashby (00:25:33):
Yeah. Well, so I actually was training late at night. I was still a PT at the time at Market Street, and I trained and I just rushed it and I think I was just tired and exhausted or whatever, and I went down to a squat and I couldn't get back up. And it wasn't too heavy, but it was 120 kg on my back, which isn't very easy to do when you kind of slip something and I couldn't walk the next day. I was really bad. I had an ambulance come in and Is that
Tony Boutagy (00:26:01):
Right?
Brock Ashby (00:26:02):
Yeah, it was pretty bad. But that was from then I kind of had to go back through the client prep stuff that you worked and me being the client being slowly working through to work my way up back into, not that squat and deadlift once again are necessary, but to work my way back up into it. And I stayed away from squatting and deadlift a while. For a while. I was a little bit fearful more so it was a mentality thing. Now I'm back into it. I have confidence working into it. To kind of go on another direction, I know that you've coached some pretty great athletes. You've coached Hattie Boyle, you've coached, and recently I saw Anna Creatin, is that how you say her name? Take the WBFF Pro title, what's it like coaching them? Because I know a lot of, especially female athletes kind of, and even some men as well, but I think a lot of female females just in the gym in general kind of look at competing and put it on a pedestal. And it is a great achievement, but I think people don't really understand the amount of work it takes and the amount of grit that these people have because I know because I've seen it, but from the outside looking in, a lot of people have this goal, I want to compete one day as if it's something you just tick off the list. But it is actually a lot of work.
Tony Boutagy (00:27:20):
It's a lot of work. And the idea that I just want to tick it off and I want to do it for me, you can do that. I mean, if that's something that floats your boat and that's something that you would like to do, then I would encourage you to go after your goals. But at the higher levels of performance, and this is unique, I've worked with at the highest level of sport in over 30 different sports. But the uniqueness of that personality, it's all the same personality. It's a single minded devotion to the task. And sometimes the athlete is very good at also having a normal personality, not just them focused and other athletes. Not everyone exists for those individuals, and they might look really nice, but one person exists and that's the athlete and they're not very fun people to work with. But the strength coach is the bottom of the pecking order.
(00:28:23):
That's why I never talk about athletes because all I did was told them the sets and the reps, it's not a big deal. Out of the 30 or 40 hours a week that they're training, they might be doing strength work two or three hours. That's a really small deal. So when you hear strength coaches talking about all the athletes they've trained, it's like, come on man. It's the athlete. We're the bottom of the barrel of the support staff really. So I tend to not talk names, but that single-minded devotion to perfection and being the best is a common theme that goes across all the athletes, across all the sports that I've worked with.
Brock Ashby (00:28:59):
And how have you dealt with the other side of, like you said, post competition blues? Because I've seen online people, they're gearing their, and especially people with followings, their kind of gearing their followers up like, oh, I'm so pumped. I'm two weeks out, I'm one week out. And then they don't place how have you,
Tony Boutagy (00:29:19):
But there can only be one winner,
Brock Ashby (00:29:21):
But
Tony Boutagy (00:29:24):
This is it. You pour your heart and soul and some sports are very clear cut as in you were the fastest athlete, you lifted the most weight. Others have a team of people judging you, and gymnastics is a sport like this, but physique competitions are like this, which means that, and my experience, Hattie and I have talked about this, is that she won the world championships one year and then the next year she came second and they said, you need to come in a different condition. So we did that. We did everything that they said, and she still came in second. Well, what did you want? Now you're saying she's too small, so which one is it that you want? And this is the unfortunate subjective side to visual based, aesthetic based sports.
Brock Ashby (00:30:13):
And I guess that's one thing why I haven't really dived into, well, people have asked me in the past, would you ever compete? Because that's kind of, oh, you're a personal trainer, you just compete, and then you get all these lean photos and you post it and you get clients. I never kind of went that way. And I think subconsciously, looking back at it now, and especially after studying juujitsu now, which is a, I guess you could say a performance-based sport where you don't just win by being in a certain condition, but you win by I guess being the better athlete through a performance. I think that's one reason why I kind of stared away from it, because well, especially when you mix in the question if someone's natural or not, and then you are, if I was going to stand on stage, haven't touched anything, and then someone's taking something and then they're better than me, and I've trained my ass off for 20 weeks, and I believe I do have pretty good genetics. I'm Maori, my dad's helped me out with the Maori genetics. That helps building muscle, I think, but then someone that's on the source, I like to say, I'm just not going to, and I didn't want to put myself through that rollercoaster because it is like, well, how do you judge that?
Tony Boutagy (00:31:22):
Yeah, it is an issue. And the unfortunate level of high level sport is that doping is a reality and it's very, very hard to detect cheating. That's how it is. But in physique sports testing isn't really a big deal if done at all. So at the very highest levels in certain federations, it's just assumed that if you are competitive, you are doping and you need to make that decision. Whether do you want to do that and compete like that, but don't go around and saying that you're completely clean. Right? It's like, well, any coach can work that out pretty quick. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:32:12):
That's one thing I hate. I've seen some interviews where they're on live tv and I actually met this guy in real life and I won't name him, but a big fitness dude I was in. I actually flew over to America with my friend and I had a high net worth client. I flew over to America to train him for a certain extended period of time, and we went to Gold's Gym and the famous fitness model guy was there, and I was like, I think, and this was a couple years ago, but I thought I was in pretty good shape for 10 years or 12 years of natural training, and he just made me look like a stick. I felt like I didn't even train beside him. And he's like, he was on this interview saying, yeah, I'm just natural trained. It's trained harder. And I'm like, well, I believe he's trained hard for sure. I would not put that against him, but he's like, I don't know, just made me look like an absolute stick. That's one thing that I can't get behind saying, I think that's lying to get clients. That's all I see. Because the only other reason you would do it, or the only reason you would do it, would be to financially benefit, right?
Tony Boutagy (00:33:23):
But it can also just support a whole body dysmorphia image that you feel that you have to have that to look a certain way and feel a certain way. There's a lot of psychology in it, but yes, when your body is your business and you generate business, the issue of course it's illegal, which means that people are going to lie about it. That's the nature of it. I think as long as most people realise that a lot of what is seen on social media has been pharmaceutically enhanced. And the problem with that is if you're an 18-year-old kid and you want a good physique and you look up to somebody and you think you can do it naturally well, you can't because there's a limit. There's a ceiling to what the human body can do.
Brock Ashby (00:34:10):
And I think that's the biggest problem is people will look at person X and say, I want to look like him. They start training, get fed up. I wasn't in that boat once. I would read all the articles, look at their interviews, look at their photos, eat their meal plans, which tasted terrible, do their programmes, which took about two and a half hours and I'd still get nowhere. I kind of want to talk about hypertrophy a little bit because I know you well, for me, coming up once again, as personal trainer, you were a person that just opened my eyes to what I actually took to build muscle. Can you kind of break down, I guess just the process of building muscle, what it takes, and then maybe just maybe the biggest thing people get wrong with building muscle because I think one thing people think, and I've experienced a lot with clients signing up saying, I want to put on 10 kg of muscle, and I'm like, are we signing up for six years or what's going on? It's, it's much harder to gain, to gain muscle than to lose body fat. But some people just kind of compare it like, oh, I'd like to just lose five kg of muscle. I mean, lose five kg of body fat and put on three kg of muscle. But it doesn't really work like that.
Tony Boutagy (00:35:22):
It doesn't work like that, and it doesn't work like that when you consider it in the lens of evolution, having more of you was not of evolutionary benefit, but having endurance was. So the adaptations that we get in our bodies to improve endurance capacity, they're driven by obviously doing that task, walking, jogging, but also in the absence of food. So interestingly, by being on low energy and even low carbohydrate, you get more out of that training session. So the body evolutionary is designed to ramp up those pathways to make you a better hunter or a gatherer. But growing new muscle is energy expensive. So there's a lot of things that have to go into the stew, so to speak, of growing muscle. But to become a better runner, you don't need to focus much about nutrition even happening when you train before breakfast and you don't even skip.
(00:36:28):
All of those things help you become a better runner. But weight training, it's so easy to lose muscle, and if you have covid or you have a flu, you're going to lose muscle mass with your bedrest because muscles are in a constant state of build up and build down, and we're turning over basically a percent of our muscle every few days. So within a few months, you've got a completely new muscular system, but it's driven by what is the overall stimulus. And if the overall stimulus is you take up running because you want to do a marathon, then the turnover of muscle is geared towards taking in blood in mitochondria. But if you're doing weight training, then that turning over the stimulus is now I'm going to grow muscle. Now that process is really slow because every time we eat a meal and it's got protein in it and you've been lifting weights, we take less than 10% of that meal or about two grammes and turn that into muscle per meal. It's a very slow, very small process. And when you do gain weight and you look at this goes, oh, I've gone up a kilo this week. You didn't get a kilo of muscle. We wish you get a few grammes of muscle and the rest is water and glycogen. So it's a very long process.
Brock Ashby (00:37:38):
So where do you think would be the number one thing that people kind of screw up with trying to build muscle in the weight
Tony Boutagy (00:37:45):
Room, you say? Yeah, because I would say there's two big issues when people fail to grow muscle. And one is inappropriate programming variables because there is a known amount of volume and intensity and rest all of these things that have been studied and compared against something else and shown that this is a better way and the other is just not eating enough because it's energetically expensive to lay down new you. So if you are under eating, and let's say you have a wearable, you've got an aura ring and it says you move around at work and you went for a walk and you lifted weights, it says your aura ring, you did 3000 calories. Well, that means in three meals you need to eat a thousand calories each to be in balance. Just to balance. Just to balance. Not even before the surplus energy that the brain says, well, let's take that surplus and send it to the skeletal muscle to grow. But if you're an energy deficit, you can grow muscle, but you need to be very fastidious, but the body is primed to grow muscle in energy balance or surplus. So firstly, you need to understand what are you burning every day? And if you've got no idea, then you're just guessing, right? Why bother talking about macros or protein? That doesn't mean anything. You have to understand that if you're expending 3000 calories, then you should probably eat 3,300, maybe shoot 10% above it.
Brock Ashby (00:39:08):
Yeah, I think that's one thing that I've found just people absolutely stuff up is that the pyramid of nutritional importance or the whole calories in thing, people are focusing a question that not infuriates me, but that I dislike getting is what protein powder should I take or how much razin should I take per day?
Tony Boutagy (00:39:29):
Lower order questions, find out how much you expend in a day, do it over a week, and you'll find that there's quite marked changes. If you have a leg day or a rest day, you could be at 2,100 calories, and then on a leg day you could be at three and a half thousand. Once you understand your total energy needs for the day, then you need to shoot just above it. That's the point of now being in surplus. Now, the weight training stimulus, that's telling that surplus energy to go to skeletal muscle. If you're in energy deficit, you're in preservation mode. Why would you grow new tissue by and large when you're in energy deficit? Now again, you can, but it's not optimised. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:40:07):
I was going to say optimised. There's that study, I think it's on rugby players where it's like the calorie deficit, they still build muscle. Yeah, it's
Tony Boutagy (00:40:14):
Very,
Brock Ashby (00:40:15):
It's just super rare or you have to have really great genetics.
Tony Boutagy (00:40:18):
You need to know what you're doing. So the best, this is called recomp. The best comping study that was precisely controlled was done by Stu Phillips, and I spoke to Stu via email afterwards and he said the guys were walking around just saying, feed me, feed me. And he induced a massive deficit and trained them an hour vigorously six days a week. It's possible. In fact, every girl I've worked with for physique competitions, they've all recounted from coming into dieting phase to just before competition. Very, very possible. You just really need to know what you're doing. So most people don't, to be honest, they just don't know what to do.
Brock Ashby (00:40:57):
And I think a lot of people don't understand that, well, you'll be on lower calories, so you'll probably feel pretty crap. But then you have to train like a beast. You've got the most energy you have throughout the day. That's a really, I don't think people have the kind of grit to do that.
Tony Boutagy (00:41:14):
And that takes you back to the, what's the psychology of an athlete? It is single-minded focus towards their task and that grit just to train when you don't feel like training and when it's cold and raining and dark and you've been doing the same thing over and over and over, if that doesn't float your boat, then find something else to do. But that's what it takes.
Brock Ashby (00:41:34):
I want to jump to a couple of questions that people sent through. I'll just be aware of time.
Tony Boutagy (00:41:44):
How
Brock Ashby (00:41:44):
Do you know when to bulk and when to cut? So some followers have sent these in through Instagram, so how would you know when to bulk and winter to cut
Tony Boutagy (00:41:54):
Excluding a competition? So just in life,
Brock Ashby (00:41:58):
Just kind of when should I get leaner? When should I decide to put on
Tony Boutagy (00:42:02):
Bulk? It's a really personal answer, and that is when do you want to look good in the least amount of clothes? So for the vast majority of people, that is going to be December until March or April. So that's great. That means that at least 12 to 16 weeks before December, you now need to think about entering a phase of training, which is calorie restricted, higher volume focus with training and a real emphasis on dietary protein because in energy deficit, your body will break down muscle tissue. The body doesn't really care what it's breaking down as long as it's breaking down something in that shortfall of energy. And that's why studies have shown 30, 40 and sometimes close to 50% of the loss of weight can come from muscle tissue. So if you can take up running because you want to shred, so you are running in energy deficit, then that's a catabolic stimulus. So you will lose muscle tissue, so you won't look the way that you want to look. So that's why weight training becomes so critically important in that cutting phase. So that's you work your way backwards, which means then from, let's call it April until that 16 weeks, you just devote yourself to being in balance or slight surplus and you build as much tissue as your genetic frame or a lay to build.
Brock Ashby (00:43:23):
And what advice would you give to people that struggle with gaining weight? A big one. People want to transform their body or build muscle mass, but they can't hack their genes getting tighter or actually having to put on a little bit of weight because I do it, but I do it very subtly. I do it in small increments where I'm okay, I don't look as lean as I have before, but it's not super obvious like, whoa, Brock's let himself go. But some people struggle with that tightrope walk of being lean or I'm fat. I'm just going to eat whatever I can now
Tony Boutagy (00:43:58):
Then stay in balance. So decide, determine what it takes to be an energy balance and use a wearable and okay, they're not perfect. Everyone knows they're not perfect. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:44:09):
I got a Fitbit
Tony Boutagy (00:44:11):
And it's going to be a ballpark. It's not 7,000 calories and it's not 1500 calories. It'll be a ballpark for you, and that ballpark would be relatively consistent. So eat around that just a little bit above. If you want a muscle focus or just stay around there, then you can at least get the most out of your training. But if you are consistently sitting under that by 300, 500 calories, you skip a meal, you're busy. You never get the physique that you want.
Brock Ashby (00:44:41):
But that's the struggle. People just want to look lean 24 7 and stack on muscle at the same time.
Tony Boutagy (00:44:46):
Yeah, yeah. Well, this is, it can't happen. It can't happen. Long-term. The studies that show Recomp, we're talking about studies that are four weeks to eight weeks. They're not talking about a 12 month study where you sat at six kilogrammes of body fat all year round. You have to do a prodigious amount of work to do that. It's possible, but do you have work? Do you have family? Do you have other people in your life? Do you like food? You can't do all of those things and still have six kilogrammes of body fat.
Brock Ashby (00:45:20):
Yeah. And that's a problem you see with people, say,
(00:45:24):
I'd say such as myself, I think I have fortunate genetics. I can eat quite a lot of food. So my average maintenance will be, if I get somewhere between 10 to 15,000 steps, I do my couple juujitsu things. I train five to six times a week. I can eat about 3,500 and just maintain. If I want to lose weight, I can go down to 3,200 or something like that, and I'll still drop weight nice and slowly, and I'm still eating. On Sunday, I had three grilled burgers for lunch, I don't know, 1500 calories just in one meal. And you kind of see, say, I might pop up on social media and I'm eating this and that, and you see, whoa, these guys are lean all the time, but they're eating all this. I think people don't really understand the importance of genetics, I guess is what I'm trying to say. At the same time that I'm giving advice to people about fat loss and stuff like that. I'm often on the other side of the spectrum where I was a hard gainer growing up. I was always skinny. I was just like a bottomless pit. My mom would be like, do you have worms inside? You're like, I'll just keep eating and I would just never gain weight. But everyone's so different in that way.
Tony Boutagy (00:46:35):
Rule number one, you just cannot compare yourself to anyone else. You don't have the same microbiome, you don't have the same psychology, you don't have the same insulin sensitivity, digestive enzymes, food history, what your ancestors, none of that. So you compare yourself to you and you've got to find the solutions of what works for you. And some people really are very genetically blessed with insulin sensitivity. Other people just do a prodigious amount of work. You can take, say somebody on social media, take Ross Edgeley who is an adventure. He's an absolute beast. He's a beast. And he can put away the food and he shows pictures of his food. I've seen ridiculous amounts of food, but he also can swim 25 kilometres in five hours.
Brock Ashby (00:47:22):
Who's doing that in their spare
Tony Boutagy (00:47:23):
Time? And then I'm going to go and do some heel sprints and then I'm going to lift some weight. So your daily energy expenditure is 9,000 calories. So you can eat 8,000 calories and be in massive energy deficit and look like that.
Brock Ashby (00:47:39):
Or you're comparing yourself where, let's say you're an office worker, you sit down from nine to five, and then you go home, you sit down, watch more tv, and then there's a fitness person on Instagram, say, Ross, who's kind of like, boy, you could say full-time job is to be an athlete. It is. And to do things. You can't compare yourself to someone that's literally getting paid to be an athlete and paid to work out where you are. Can't be bothered working out. Yeah, it's just like chalk and cheese.
Tony Boutagy (00:48:03):
Absolutely. But don't forget that also, those people who gravitate to sports and physics, that's what drives them. That's working at a desk in front of a computer all day doing banking. That's not what drives them. They thrive on going to the gym and counting their macros.
Brock Ashby (00:48:21):
So I have a couple more questions. Oh, this is a good one. Tips for a brand new pt, as in this is the first gym I'm working at and I'm brand new.
Tony Boutagy (00:48:34):
Great personal training is an amazing job, and you can meet so many different people and help all different types. And personal trainers are like the GPS of the fitness industry. We need to have a working knowledge of everything, but you don't have to specialise, but you need to understand about nutrition and how to help rehab a knee and what to avoid to hurt someone's back and help somebody lose weight and put everything that's really like a gp. So the more courses that are diverse that you can do the better and click with personalities, you'll find educators who you see the world the same way they do so many great courses out there, and there's so many books. So I always advise, read as widely as you can, take some time out of social media and actually read a proper book.
Brock Ashby (00:49:31):
People are like, I'm doing some research
Brock Ashby (00:49:33):
There on Instagram researching.
Tony Boutagy (00:49:38):
I saw a great picture of somebody sitting on the toilet and you see the pants around the ankle and the meme is, I'm doing my research. So read as much as you can and attend as many different courses across the different fields. So do courses with physios and sports dietitians and strength coaches and coaches who do different sports to what you do. You'll pick stuff up and don't get overwhelmed a lot to become good at, and it takes a long time.
Brock Ashby (00:50:12):
I think one thing that I really liked when I watched you, I remember when I came to do your course on the lunch break, you had a client, and that's
Tony Boutagy (00:50:20):
Right, they were hell days.
Brock Ashby (00:50:22):
Yeah. You were like, oh yeah, guys, I'm just going to teach and now I'm going to do a client for an hour while you guys get lunch. And then you're back into it. And you were so quiet in fitness. First you get to one two, counting every rep, and how's your weekend? How's this, how's that? And always counting, how's that? Is that all good? And then I saw you. It was just normal to me. You just see at fitness first, I think, well, I shouldn't just single out fitness first, but I think the standard of personal training could really improve. And I think that's why I loved your course because especially the trainers at my gym that did it, they were the busy trainers because we kind of picked up an idea of what could be improved or how we could be better trainers. But yeah, you were so quiet.
Tony Boutagy (00:51:07):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:51:07):
Not quiet in this,
Tony Boutagy (00:51:10):
I'm an introvert by nature, and I don't feel that clients need fake pumping up, and ultimately your client picks the trainer based on a personality agreement. So my personality is I'm not going to talk if I don't need to talk, and I really don't think you're interested in my life despite what you might pretend to be, but I know you're not listening to me, so I'm there because you want my brains to be honest and my eyes. So I'm there to see what, and if I don't need to say anything, I won't. So it's all pretty, yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:51:47):
Yeah. Well, that's kind of half the chat you hear on the Jim Flores weekends. And
Tony Boutagy (00:51:52):
I think trainers need to realise that their clients don't care. I mean, they're polite, don't get me wrong, but they're not listening. Why would they care about a 22-year-old what they did? They don't. They're being polite. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:52:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Tony Boutagy (00:52:05):
So we need to get out of our own way pretty quickly. I like
Brock Ashby (00:52:09):
That. Another question, actually, I find this one quite interesting. It was a question directed at you, or do you nap during the day sometimes? And do you recommend it?
Tony Boutagy (00:52:23):
When I'm at work, I do not because I don't have time, but I love a good nap sometimes The knowledge of having a nap is the only thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. I just love it. And data shows improved cognition with it, so you get a better rest of your day. But if clients feel obliged that they have to have a nap, it could be a sign of something else. And that's worth exploring. And I would look at two avenues. One, are you getting a rebound hypoglycemia? So you'll have a meal and you'll get a really large surge in insulin and glucose, and then it would drop below to where it was before the meal, and you just feel like you've got to have a nap. So if that's within 30 minutes to an hour of having a meal, it's like I'm tired. You might have rebound hypoglycemia that's worth talking about with your gp. And is
Brock Ashby (00:53:20):
That from calories? I know there's the postprandial kind of effect. Is that just from calories or is that from carbohydrates as
Tony Boutagy (00:53:26):
Well? You have to work out, which is, so if you just are eating a large amount and you're having 1500 calories and all of that food is in your stomach and the blood is being shunted away elsewhere and it's now going to digest, yeah, you're probably going to feel pretty sleepy. But I mean, how many people are putting away 1500 calories at lunch? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:53:45):
Well, actually, it's funny you say that. I used to feel really sleepy after breakfast, and I used to sink a huge amount of calories starving when I wake up. And because I have such a big calorie budget, be like, well, I've got to put away quite a lot of food, especially if I have a high activity day. So I'd have this big yoghourt bowl and sometimes I'll throw a chocolate in there and honey and peanut butter just to make up my calories. And then I'd be like, man, I want to sleep. And it's like 9:00 AM
Tony Boutagy (00:54:08):
I've only awake. That's classic. Postprandial, topa. So the other is if you're just having a normal size, you have some oats for breakfast and I dunno, some sourdough, and then an hour lady's like, I really need a nap. Have a chat to your gp. You could be rebound. The other is that your sleep architecture might not be great. So you're either waking up mid REM cycle and you're not getting enough REM sleep because remember you have deep sleep and you've got REM sleep and you've got phases of sleep, different brainwave activities. Most of your sleep in the early hours of when you go to bed is deep restoring your body. The latter hours is rem. So if you wake up too early, you haven't missed an hour of sleep, you've lopped off 50% of your REM sleep, you're doing all of your dreaming sleep at that stage, depending on your sleep architecture or your sleep duration, you might not be having enough or great architecture. So in the day you just have to sleep. Every athlete sleeps unquote, every athlete, virtually every athlete has that luxury of training in the morning and having a nap then. But for the rest of us who work a bit of a luxury, but do ask yourself, is it just a rebound issue from food or does your sleep hygiene need some focus to make sure that you can push through, but there's nothing inherently wrong with a nap. Yeah, it's limited to 20 minutes.
Brock Ashby (00:55:29):
Right. Is there certain types of people that like to nap more or because kind of concerned? Sometimes I used to nap, especially when I was really busy as a personal trainer. If someone cancelled or if there was a 30 minute spot, I'd run to the car park, put the seat back, cover my eyes, sleep back, and I would do that. But I think it was just because of pure exhaustion. But pure
Tony Boutagy (00:55:51):
Exhaustion. Yeah. If you're not sleeping in that case nine hours a night, then you're going to need a nap.
Brock Ashby (00:55:57):
No, I was going five or six days.
Tony Boutagy (00:55:59):
That's a sleep hygiene issue. So your sign can be that you're not getting enough sleep or enough sleep quality. And then don't sleep too late in the day. Sleeping, having a nap takes the pressure, the valve off, and you've got to be careful. So three o'clock, that's it. You can't sleep after that. Really. So you've got a nap before that.
Brock Ashby (00:56:19):
And well, I asked you if you wanted a coffee on the way here and you said you don't do caffeine at 8:00 AM Is that something you do to protect your sleep? Absolutely. Or is that something else?
Tony Boutagy (00:56:27):
Yeah, you've got to fight for your sleep. There is no question that everything and everyone encroaches on your sleep. It's your partner, your kids work, emails, entertainment, all of those things will try and take you away from an eight or nine hour sleep opportunity. If you are training with regularity and focus and discipline, you will need nine hours of sleep a night or at least very close to it because you need that to restore your body. But let's call it eight hours, you need eight hour sleep opportunity and maybe a bit more if you training heavily. How many things we'll try and get away of that. Eating out at night, watching a movie, bingeing, catching up with your wife. I mean, these are all things that incorrect, so you have to fight for it. And caffeine is a sleep destroyer, so it has a six hour, which means that quarter of your coffee that you had at eight o'clock in the morning is circulating your brain when you're going to bed at eight. I wake up at four, so I'm a bed at eight, but it's terrible for social life, but I've got to go to work.
Brock Ashby (00:57:26):
Turned me down. You just turned me
Tony Boutagy (00:57:27):
Down for a coffee. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So my rule of thumb is it's 12 hours for concentrate. I'll have a tea maybe a bit after that, but there's 30 or 40 milligrammes in a tea, but there's 120 in a coffee.
Brock Ashby (00:57:41):
So with tea, do you doge your green tea because it's higher caffeine, go for something else or do you
Tony Boutagy (00:57:47):
Know, think about tea, English, breakfast. So it's pretty simple.
Brock Ashby (00:57:52):
And is there anything else that you do to protect your sleep?
Tony Boutagy (00:57:56):
Yeah, I wear blue blockers. And
Brock Ashby (00:57:59):
At what time?
Tony Boutagy (00:58:01):
Trying to mimic dusk. So at this time of year, it's pretty easy. I put them on from five. I'll avoid doing any sort of work within an hour or before bed. So I will not turn my computer on. I won't even check my emails. And bed is for sleeping and intimacy, so I won't sit up in bed and do work.
Brock Ashby (00:58:21):
I used to do that a lot. I've stopped that now.
Tony Boutagy (00:58:22):
It's a mistake. Yeah, it's a mistake that a lot of people just don't. You are creating an association whether you think that you are or not, you are. So bed is for sleeping.
Brock Ashby (00:58:35):
Yeah, I think that's one thing. So we moved to Mossman to have a bit of a better place and also to get our own property, but the place that we lived at before was so small, so the bed was there and the desk was right beside it. So I was literally, I kind of had no other choice because the place was literally so small. There was the lounge and all of that, and then there was the bed and then there was a desk, and then that's where it was. So it was really easy for me to grab my laptop when I was sick of lying or sitting at my desk. I just go lie on my bed and call like that. But I think subconsciously, well that's one thing I took away from your course was your body remembers what it does, where it is. So if you're in the bed and you're working and then you try and go to sleep there, it's like, well, this place is for working.
Tony Boutagy (00:59:20):
Oh, a hundred percent. And for those people who do live in smaller places, you just need to fastidiously set the place up that's designed for different activities. So your bed, once you get up in the morning, you make it, and when you look at it, you go, that's my place that I'm sleeping and it's perfectly made and it's beautiful. But then on my desk, my desk is clear. And if it's like what you had, you have a division and that division is you've got your workspace and then you might have some books or some pictures and then that separates that workspace where you do all your working and then you've got your bed.
Brock Ashby (00:59:54):
Yeah, I wish I had, well it was, man, it was like 38 metre squared or something. It is pretty tight. Things
Tony Boutagy (00:59:59):
We have to do what we have to do. Right. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:00:02):
Last question I want to end on, and this isn't from anyone, it's from me. This is the Better with Brock podcast, and it's mainly, yes, it's around fitness, nutrition, lifestyle. I'm a personal trainer, that's pretty obvious, but I'm also very interested in self-development and I read a lot of self-development books. And just a basic question, what do you do every day that helps you or ensures you to become better?
Tony Boutagy (01:00:32):
It wouldn't be one thing, that's for sure. It would be a number of things. And professionally, I read every day for about an hour, and that is spread across. Sometimes it's just workbooks and sometimes it's just pure science, but it's a practise that I don't miss, never miss. It's a non-negotiable.
Brock Ashby (01:00:54):
And when do you do this? Because I've been playing around with times to read because, well, I'm doing courses as well. I did your course early on. I'm always just trying to learn from different people. And at the moment I've found that I have to do it when I first wake up or else I make too many excuses. I have to train, I have to post, I have to write a programme. I do it from six till seven. I'm kind of still waking up, so I'm having a coffee, but I think that's definitely better than me not doing it, which is what I would do for a long
Tony Boutagy (01:01:21):
Time. Absolutely. You do need to find, it's a bit like exercise when you're speaking to a client and well, where are you going to do it, where it's not going to get hijacked by your day. Now I happen to love reading, so it's no problem for me to find time to read anywhere. Whereas I'm in a stage of life with three young kids where if I don't exercise first thing in the morning, then it's hijacked and I don't feel comfortable doing it. When my wife's doing everything for the kids, I'm just going to go lift some
Brock Ashby (01:01:48):
Weights.
Tony Boutagy (01:01:49):
So I will read at a different time of day, but earlier on was the first thing. I'd wake up, make coffee, and then read for an hour, and then I'd start my day. Now I train first thing in the morning, so I'm up and I train and then I get that done and then I can see clients and read and so forth. So I'm catching that all over the place. Exercise was also a non-negotiable. I would exercise every day. Daily. Daily without exception. So last year I averaged over two hours a day every day of the year. Wow. I was, and
Brock Ashby (01:02:20):
Sorry, what does your exercise look like? Because people might just think, oh, he's just lifting weights 24 7, but I know that that's
Tony Boutagy (01:02:25):
Not you. That's right. It's everything. So I happen to cycling and so I will cycle most days, but I diversify the fitness across a multitude of different modes. So I swim, I run, I cycle. I use an assault bike, I lift weights, I'll walk. If I feel like I'm really beaten up, I'll go for a 60 or 90 minute walk. But it's diverse, but I never, ever, ever take a day off, ever. So that practise of always reading and reading across different disciplines so that I have a higher chance of being able to solve problems that clients bring and looking after my health. That'll be the two big things. And trying to be a nice guy. That'd be the third guy.
Brock Ashby (01:03:15):
It'd be nice. And lastly, this is just kind of my curiosity at the moment. What do you do for your training now? And then, I promise we're finished, but are you still doing your two hours a day?
Tony Boutagy (01:03:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I try and accumulate about 10 hours a week in zone two. So about 75% of my maximum heart rate that keeps lactate levels below two millimolars. That is the most potent stimulus to improve your mitochondrial health. So I try and accumulate that and that could be a three hour bike ride on Saturday when I have more time. And then it's an hour each day. So I commute to work on my bike. There's an hour. I will do intervals at least one day a week. But pushing that glycolytic capacity at my age with no goal, well, how much do I really need to do before it wipes me out? So it's all about doing the most amount of work without feeling I need to take a week
Brock Ashby (01:04:09):
Off. And what sort of intervals are you doing? I remember when we were doing cardio intervals at your course, I was sprinting up the hill and then walking back down, sprinting back up.
Tony Boutagy (01:04:19):
Yeah, I prefer sprint interval training like that. Or short intervals, like 15 seconds on 15 seconds off or 30 seconds on 30 seconds. I can do that for blocks of say eight minutes and then you rest and do eight minutes of that. I like that. As opposed to doing say four minutes of work and then two minutes of rest. But you've got to do stuff that you don't like doing. But they're the three, I'm mixing the intervals up all the time. I'm not training for anything except to be fit lot. A lot of zone two work, a session of interval training. I swim every day that I'm home and that's just zone two. And when I'm lifting weights, I mix it up between doing strength endurance work, making sure I'm taking care of my stabilisers, some maximal strength work and some mid range 10 to 20 reps. But I don't want it to make me too sore so then I can't run. So it's more about being strong and having muscle.
Brock Ashby (01:05:16):
And lastly, just before we go, where can people find you? Have you got anything coming up? What's next for you? I know that you're doing courses That's right. Which were once face-to-face. Are you still doing face-to-face course?
Tony Boutagy (01:05:28):
Purely online? No. Only occasionally. Only occasionally. And I think we'll have some middle of the year and it'll be problem solving exercise technique based. And that just helps having another set of eyes to say, well, you need to do more soleus on your left because you're shifting this way and you need more serus on your right. And so that course will be about that hopefully. But Covid meant that I turned all of my courses into something that was online. So tony bati.com is my website and that has all of my course information and Tony bat on Instagram if you're a nerd. Then I post interesting scientific articles on Twitter. And I'm Tony bat there as well.
Brock Ashby (01:06:06):
Twitter? Yeah, I'm not on Twitter actually. No,
Tony Boutagy (01:06:09):
It is not designed visually, but a lot of academics go there and they put their stuff up before it's published. So it's a really great resource if you know how to use it.
Brock Ashby (01:06:19):
Well, I saw you post the plant-based protein versus whey protein and that was kind of mind boggling
Tony Boutagy (01:06:25):
For me. Me, I tweeted that. I tweeted that. Well, I tweeted
Brock Ashby (01:06:27):
That first, right? I only saw the Instagram story
Tony Boutagy (01:06:29):
Because then you can actually read the article because it takes link.
Brock Ashby (01:06:32):
Well, it was just a screenshot. I was like, alright, I'll take his word for it. I was doing my research in
Tony Boutagy (01:06:36):
The toilet. Instagram is not designed for academics. It's designed to look at things. And even when you do see somebody posts a researcher, they think, oh, that's great. I can't click on it. Twitter, you just click on it and takes you to the paper.
Brock Ashby (01:06:50):
Okay. Well thanks so much for coming on the podcast, man. I pleasure. I
Tony Boutagy (01:06:53):
Appreciate it. Great catching up.
Brock Ashby (01:06:54):
Yeah, I appreciate it. Well, yeah, that's us. Yeah, Tony, thanks for your time and hopefully I'll see you at your course very soon.
Tony Boutagy (01:07:00):
It's a pleasure. Thank you. Cheers mate.
Brock Ashby (00:00:01):
What's up guys and girls? Welcome to episode number 15 on the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with my friend, my client, Tyler Murphy. Yeah, give us a bit of an intro, man. It's awesome to have you on board. I actually should have worn my support made shirt. I just thought of that as soon as I got it. I was like, oh, I've got the shirt, I've got the hoodie. I would've been so prepared.
Tyler Murphy (00:00:24):
I got it on. I'm wrapping it,
Brock Ashby (00:00:26):
But just give us a bit of an intro. Just from my perspective, we've been working together for a while now, over 80 weeks. I think it's the end of this eight week programme will be 88. Week 88, which is a long time. Over a year, well over a year. But yeah, you've been through a lot. We've achieved a lot. But yeah, just give everyone a bit of an intro.
Tyler Murphy (00:00:51):
Alright. Yeah. Hey guys. As Brock said, my name is Tyler. I've been working with Brock since August, 2020. Fitness has always been something that's been really important to me, both aesthetically. That's obviously a big part of it, but mental health has always been a big part of it for me. No problem sharing this. I am type one bipolar. So for me, working out has always just been a matter of keeping a level head and just kind of getting rid of any anxiety and stress and it's just a good serotonin boost for me. I've been in and out of the gym since I was 15 and I've done everything from Barry's bootcamp to, I used to box competitively, just amateur, nothing big, but it was something I enjoyed.
(00:01:48):
Not a lot of fun, always getting punched in the head, but it was pretty fun getting to punch other people in the head. And yeah, I guess everything's kind of always come back to just traditional style lifting. For me, that's where it all started. I guess achieving goals, whether it be with nutrition and body fat, percentage to, I guess the big stuff being compound lifts and hitting a high one rep max on a squat or a DEI or a bench. That's kind of where the main passion of it all lies for me and that's why I enjoy doing it.
Brock Ashby (00:02:32):
And that's one thing that I always try to gravitate towards focusing on being strong or developing your lifts because say with you, we've dropped our first eight weeks, eight to 16 weeks, we got really lean. We achieved a great body fat percentage in terms of what you're talking about, aesthetics is an important thing and I think anyone who says, oh, I just want to, I don't care about how I look, I think there's a little bit of lies in there. We all kind of care about how we look because it's not just about how we look, it's how we portray ourselves. It's our confidence as well. It's our self-esteem, not that we need to tie it together, but it helps when you're looking good because you feel better as well and it comes through in your confidence. But I think it's important as a coach to be like, well, sometimes you have to, once you get really lean, you have to bite the bullet and realise that you can't just keep getting lean.
(00:03:29):
You're going to have to go through a period of time. You get thicker where you gain body weight, where you focus on building muscle. You have to, that's the only way you can build muscle. You can't just stay in a calorie deficit for the rest of your life. And you've strived, man, you've been hitting, especially recently, we've been doing four reps, you've been getting really strong. So what have you had to shift to go from just chasing aesthetics to getting stronger? Is it a mindset shift? Obviously I'm doing your programmes, so I'm changing the programmes and everything, but how do you deal with that? Because it's tricky to go from, I'm super lean to accepting that you have to put on body fat to get strong.
Tyler Murphy (00:04:15):
Yeah. Oh, I think it's definitely been a combination of things. Obviously trusting you to where I got to a point where I was just like, mate, treat me your project and just have fun with my programming knowing that I have these focus areas. And that was obviously my choice in the direction I wanted to go. But I think personally what I had to really overcome was a mental thing. I guess to some degree have had a level of body dysmorphia and coming away from the leanest I've ever been in my entire life, I think I was down to 7% body fat, which was insane and it looked amazing. But when I finally got to a point quite recently where I realised that realistically for me, I enjoy food, I really enjoy food, and that aligning that with trying to get stronger just kind of goes hand in hand. And that because of that, I have to accept that I might have a little extra pudge here and there as long as I keep it controlled. And I think that that's probably been the biggest shift in my biggest journey over the course of working with you is acknowledging that I have strengths in other areas and to really focus on that. And then being proud of the fact that I know I can get to that lean stage, but just being happy with the current part of the journey that I'm on and acknowledging those strides.
Brock Ashby (00:06:05):
Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people forget. You can always go back there. It's not like I did that. I'll never be that person again. And there's a lot of people online that do bodybuilding comps and they throw back to competition day. They were that lean and they kind of glorify that as if it's never going to happen again. But you have to, if you want to change, it's easy to be lean. But it's quite funny when you meet these people online that say have big followings and they look quite jacked and quite huge. They're actually quite small because they try to stay that the whole time, but you can't. I can get very lean and I stay relatively lean throughout the year, but there's times where I'm definitely thicker and I'm carrying a bit more body fat, but that's when I'm getting really strong and that's where I'm building the most of my muscle mass.
(00:06:56):
You have to kind of take it with both. If you try to do both at the same time, it's really tricky. We've had that conversation before because it's like, yeah, but you've started to understand that you have to go through that stage where it's like, okay, I'm shifting the goalposts. I'm just changing the focus right now. I'm not trying to be lean. I'm not trying to see abs. I'm probably going to have to let go of abs and just focus on being strong. And that's why it's important to focus on being strong, not just about what you look like. It's more so about what your body can do and you're getting really strong now, especially for your body weight. You're cranking out some good numbers.
Tyler Murphy (00:07:33):
Yeah, I think I had a moment in the gym on Saturday when I doing my deadlifts where I was feeling rough. I was just getting over being a little bit crook last week
(00:07:48):
And this guy walked up to me, never spoke to the guy in my life, and I had just thrown on the one fifties and he was like, me. That's impressive. That was rocket fuel. I thought to myself, I've never had anybody come up to me and be like, oh, you're so lean. I had somebody come up to me and say, acknowledge the effort I was putting into a certain amount of weight. And that was kind of a weird light bulb moment of like, oh, I enjoy this type of programming so much more and full respect to anybody who's on the opposite end of that spectrum and you focusing on being lean and hypertrophy and all that angle of it. And if that's your forte, then by all means, keep rolling with it. But for me, having that, I guess validation was a cool moment. And to be honest with you, I think that's what helped me hit that PB was just that little comment from that guy that made me just cruise through it.
Brock Ashby (00:08:57):
And I think it's great that you get to a point where you're focusing on what you can do with your body. Because I think long-term, when we look back at we're 70, we're 60, we're probably not going to be walking around feeling amazing or looking like Greek gods having six packs or whatever. But we're still focusing on what you can do with your body. And I always think about that. I kind of always zoom out and be like, okay, what are we going to look back at long-term? And it's pretty much going to be like what you can do with your body, and if you can do this stuff now that helps you build muscle, it helps you stay more sturdy, less fragile as you get older. And not that that's the real goal now is longevity or prevention of injury as you get older. But it all comes hand in hand where this person that's just focusing on being lean 24 7, you're not going to harbour that longevity or those results. I kind of want to dive into a little bit, and excuse my ignorance, I don't know too much about it, but type one bipolar. Can you give me a bit of a rundown of what that's like? Just share what you're comfortable with. I don't want you to dive too far in, but I don't know too much about it and how that's impacted your journey.
Tyler Murphy (00:10:16):
Oh, absolutely. So there's type one, type two, and I believe there's now even a type three. I was diagnosed in 2016. I had been diagnosed with depression when I was 18, and I feel like even at that time in 2004, bipolar still wasn't very, you didn't hear about it as often. So what it ended up being when I was diagnosed with bipolar 12 years later, it turns out that I was misdiagnosed at the time with depression for me. And I think a lot of it's been environmental for me. So I was diagnosed when I used to live in New York City and everybody's experience is different. So mine would be bouts of manic. So I'd be like the life of the party, let's go out, let's party. I'd spend all my money and then I wouldn't have money to make rent, and then I'd go into this deep depression and I wouldn't get out of bed for four days. Harmful thoughts though I never moved forward with those.
(00:11:35):
Luckily, thankful and boxing was a big part of my life at the time I was diagnosed and talk about getting rid of the anger and aggression. I was punching people in the face. It was a pretty thing. And for me it was the perfect outlet and I was still doing weightlifting and stuff at the time, but I think given my environment of New York City where it's just go, go all the time and then having an outlet like boxing to where it was just the ultimate in, I mean you do, so there's just a level of having that intense body contact where you're hurting someone. And it's not like a, I don't want to say you get pleasure out of hurting someone, but you get pleasure out of knowing that you're dominating that situation. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:12:30):
I was going to say dominance, it's more so you get that feeling like you have the potential to dominate someone.
Tyler Murphy (00:12:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:12:38):
Or get dominated.
Tyler Murphy (00:12:41):
So yeah, I mean for me, that was my avenue at that time, that was my path. And I, I'm on medication and I'll be on medication for my entire life and I have to check in with a psychiatrist every now and again. But since I've moved to Australia and the ocean is my happy place, I guess, if you will, and now living in a space where I can hear birds and I can see the ocean and I have a better work-life balance, the bipolar thing has luckily taken a backseat, but again, I attribute fitness to a lot of that as well, is making sure that I'm listening to my mental health and making sure that I'm listening to my body and going into a space like the gym to make sure that I take care of myself.
Brock Ashby (00:13:39):
Yeah, there's something about it. And I think because I'm doing combat sport as well. Well, when you were doing boxing, I'm doing juujitsu. There is something about I think combat, there's something, they're quite different jiu-jitsu in boxing, but I don't know, there's something about exerting yourself that feels really good. Absolutely. And you get that from jujitsu, from boxing, but you also get that from weights as well, kind of just physically exhausting yourself, feels really freeing. I've never really, I've struggled with mental health in the past, especially when I moved away from my family in New Zealand and I lived on my own. I kind of did it to myself. I thought I had to conquer the world at 18 or at 20, so I left the house. I was like, I'm going to go change the world. I moved from crushers to Auckland and I thought that was a huge step, but I lived on my own.
(00:14:41):
I had no money, same sort of thoughts that I had, and I never really dealt with losing my mom when I was young. So I had this kind of stuff to face. I never saw anyone or got a diagnosis, so I'm not trying to claim anything and it's never going to be a competition of whose life is worse. But I went through times, but even though I didn't do jiujitsu back then, I always exerted myself with training or at some points in my life I was into cardio. I'm definitely not into cardio now, but I would exert myself and I would always feel better after, even though the situation hadn't changed, I would always feel better. So would you feel that you would, if you felt these emotions, would you go to boxing or would you try and apply that or was it just something that you kind of did that was in the schedule that just made you feel
Tyler Murphy (00:15:34):
Better? Especially when I was training for a fight, I, I don't think it was something that I consciously was like, oh, by going to the gym, I'm going to mentally feel better when I committed to fighting or competing. Well, that's it. I've committed to competing, so now that means I need to be at the gym at this time and at this time, and my coach even moved in with me for three months leading up to my fight,
Brock Ashby (00:16:06):
A committed coach.
Tyler Murphy (00:16:08):
We were both kind of in a spot where it was like he was looking for a place to live, and New York City is the most expensive city in the world, so paying for a coach was expensive. So we just met in the middle and he lived with me rent free and I didn't pay for training, so that was our agreement. But by doing so, I had somebody monitoring me 24 7. I had somebody that was holding me accountable at all times, and we were good friends too. That was the beauty in it to where I would wake up in the morning and if I was going to grab something that wasn't as nutritious in competing in the lead up to a competition, he'd call me out on it. Or if I had an early morning session the next day and I wasn't home by a certain time, I would get a text and it would be like, where are you at? And it was a very unique situation, but I committed and by doing so I got to the level that I wanted to get to. But I guess kind of bringing it back to your original question, I think maybe even subconsciously by me committing to something, it's just like I know that by doing so it's going to have that positive effect on my mental health. And as opposed to just being like, well, I have to go to the gym today because of my brain. It's
Brock Ashby (00:17:49):
Just, yeah, it was kind of like a ripple effect of that.
Tyler Murphy (00:17:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:17:54):
Yeah, and I think one part of it is feeling progress. I think that that's really healthy for our mental state as well. I think that the times where I was struggling, and I'm not saying this is the sole reason, but I felt a bit, I guess purposeless or just going with it, just cruising. But as soon as say you competed or signed up for competing, then you had something to work towards and then you have this kind of progress that's pushing you. I feel like that really helps. So for example, with Jiujitsu, the belt system is one of those things like I'm a white belt, I got one stripe end of last year that's like, oh, I'm making progress, and then I'll keep working hard and then I'll get another stripe and then another stripe and then another stripe, and then I'll get my blue belt then.
(00:18:42):
So you're kind of hooked up to this progress, which I think helps because you feel like you're getting better, which helps you with confidence and all that kind of stuff, but you're also going somewhere. And that kind of applies everywhere with work as well. If you have these goals and you're making progress. I know you're a very goal-driven dude, I feel like, and I am too, but I feel like I have to be because if I don't, even these days, if I feel like I've done all my tasks and stuff, I'm a bit of a wreck. I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do with myself. I have all this energy. I want to apply it to things. And I feel like progress or just applying yourself to things, saying yes to things or for you signing up to competing, doing these things, really applying yourself as a person. I think that human beings were made to progress towards things as opposed to just kind of crews. And I feel like when you get to that point, and this might just be my experience, so jump in if I'm just kind of saying things that you're not super agreeing with, I feel like when I'm applying myself to things, I feel like I'm a much happier person because I feel like it gives me purpose.
Tyler Murphy (00:19:48):
Absolutely. And I'm a very organised person. I love a good spreadsheet and having, I think it's kind of a visual thing of seeing things that are organised and goals kind of fall in that same box of knowing what you're working towards, knowing what the equation is to get the result that you're hoping for and to bring it to our training programme weekly. And it's funny, if I hand my partner my phone or I give my phone to a friend like, Hey, can you find this for me? And it's like most people are like, don't scroll through my pictures. And it's like, well, you can scroll through my pictures, but they're going to just be a tonne of photos of me and my underwear from my
(00:20:42):
Check-ins. But it's having those weekly check-ins that you kind of look back on things that everything kind of comes back into perspective of, wow, look how far I've come. And then that automatically for me personally, just kind of triggers, well, if I've done that in that amount of time, what am I going to look at eight weeks from now when I go back and scroll through my phone? What's the progress going to be? And creating that habit and creating that routine I think is super healthy for me mentally and knowing that I am working on a healthy routine for myself, which in turn helps me put myself out there for the rest of the world as positive as I can be.
Brock Ashby (00:21:34):
Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think looking at progress, even just the transformation photo to come back to that progress kind of brings you purpose and then kind of motivates you at the same time just seeing your transformation photos. I remember especially with fat loss because it seems more extreme as we're talking about, if you go into building phases and surpluses and just focusing on getting stronger, often aesthetically the change isn't huge. It's more what your body can do. But when you're going through fat loss and you see the two photos side by side, you see where you started and where you come from, it's a massive pat on the back and that gives you that confidence to keep going and keep making that.
Tyler Murphy (00:22:16):
And one of the biggest things that I've learned in my time training with you is that you can actually eat whatever the hell you want, but just stay in your lane, stay in your limit, keep your goal focused. If I could eat one thing for the rest of my life, it'd be chocolate. I love chocolate. And there was a time in my life where I was like, I can't eat the things that I enjoy because that's going to result in me not looking the way I want to look. And since working with you and tracking my daily calories, it's like you can still eat those things and you can still have that. And really finding the balance of having goals and routines and regimens and balancing that with I can still do the things that I enjoy. That's been an awesome takeaway from all of this.
Brock Ashby (00:23:18):
And I think that's one thing that fitness has definitely moved away from that kind of hardcore, you can't eat anything else but clean foods and you have to be super extreme. I think we're kind of coming away from that a little bit, but I kind of wanted to talk to you about what America is like with training and with nutrition stuff. I remember I used to read articles and go on websites, check out guys, and they were often from America on what they ate, the fitness model lifestyle, what their training was like, and it was always very restrictive. It was always very extreme. You have to do this at, yeah, 9:00 AM you have to have just chicken and greens and then 12:00 PM you have to have tilapia and greens, and then you might have a small little teaspoon of oats. It was very restrictive
Tyler Murphy (00:24:13):
Or waking up and having apple cider vinegar.
Brock Ashby (00:24:15):
Oh man, don't get me started.
Tyler Murphy (00:24:17):
I'm embarrassed to say that I went through that at one point in my
Brock Ashby (00:24:20):
Life. Yeah, me too. Me too. But was that, I want to say it was an American thing, but I didn't want to say that. I'd love to know what it was like for you living in New York. What was it like? What were people saying? You have to be keto? Was it like that whole type of thing? Well,
Tyler Murphy (00:24:37):
I mean there was always, granted, I've lived in Australia for going on six years now, but I grew up in the deep south in America, so obesity is rampant. So I guess fitness is different depending on where you are in the United States. That's not to say that there are not fit people in the deep south, but statistically you're going to find more people who are obese and overweight than you are fit. Now. When I lived in New York, you walk everywhere all the time. So people are hitting 20,000 steps a day as opposed to 10,000 steps a day. And you live in Sydney when you live in a major city, walking is just like eating. You just do
Brock Ashby (00:25:32):
It. It's what you do.
Tyler Murphy (00:25:35):
And then when I was living in New York at the time, the big CRAs were Barry's bootcamp and that kind of hit style training. I just think another part of New York is looking good. Fitness was just about working out so you could look good, and when you went out at night, you looked like all the beautiful people. So it was definitely part of society for whatever reason. When I lived there at the time, I feel like keto was massive. Keto was a big thing at that time. I remember a lot of people were on the, what was the caveman diet? A
Brock Ashby (00:26:29):
Paleo
Tyler Murphy (00:26:30):
Paleo. That was a big thing. No
Brock Ashby (00:26:33):
Processed foods, no carbohydrate vegetables. It was very just like meat, vegetables. You weren't even allowed grains. I don't think you were allowed grains.
Tyler Murphy (00:26:45):
And then I remember there were quite a few people that just at the time I was leaving, I remember they were on only raw. They would only juice. That was their thing. They would get all their nutrients from juicing. And I'm like, how can you not chew something? I get enjoyment out of chewing. So yeah, now that I've been here for quite some, when I first moved over here, I had every intention of living in Sydney, but the first place I visited was the Gold Coast and I was like, oh, this is hot.
Brock Ashby (00:27:22):
A lot of people from Sydney are actually moving to the Gold Coast now.
Tyler Murphy (00:27:26):
I mean, it's the way of life and it's just beautiful and it's blue skies majority of the time, but the Gold Coast is probably per capita or whatever. The ratio is probably one of the most fit places in the world.
Brock Ashby (00:27:42):
It runs up so early,
Tyler Murphy (00:27:44):
Everyone's up so early, too early. To be honest with you. I've usually hit my 10,000 steps by 7:00 AM It's crazy because everybody's up at 5:00 AM and walking. And so out of all of the places I've lived, just to kind of bring it back to your original question, I feel like fit culture is way more of a thing here, and I don't know if that's just a sign of the times and how social media has evolved and that overload of Insta models and influencers and that kind of life. But yeah, I think people are a lot more conscious of it in Australia. And I just think it's everything to do with work-life balance and just quality of life I personally believe is better in Australia.
Brock Ashby (00:28:44):
Yeah, I've heard that. I've been to New York as well just for a day and to see the vibe there, it's very different. It's such a different vibe. I thought coming from Christchurch, which is a small city in New Zealand, which is a small country, and then going to New York, I was like, I thought Auckland was busy, and then I thought Sydney was busy. And then you go to New York and then you think Sydney's like a shield holiday town, new York's crazy. You can't find space on the pavement to walk. It's super loud. All you can hear is horns like me. Everyone's like, get out of the way. Everyone's going somewhere. I feel like that is very different to the vibe here. Obviously in Australia, that whole work-life balance and the climate as well, it's nice weather here. People often, especially the Gold Coast, they go there for that kind of slower pace of life where you can get up and walk and enjoy the sun and walk your dog and do that kind of stuff. Where in New York are kind of really just kind of hustling. Oh,
Tyler Murphy (00:29:43):
Absolutely. And that was a big reason why I left was especially in the winter months, that would be when the low points of my mental health would really, really hit. Because in winter you wake up, it's still dark outside and there's a good chance that by the time you get off the subway when you're walking into work, the sun is just now starting to make an appearance. But because of all the tall buildings, you're not really getting that vitamin D. And then by the time you leave work at it's very normal to very normal thing in New York to not leave work until six 30 or seven o'clock at night and it's dark.
Brock Ashby (00:30:22):
You've missed the sun,
Tyler Murphy (00:30:23):
You've missed an entire day of sun. You may maybe dip out on your lunch break to get some lunch or whatnot, but that is not enough time for the human body and mind to be experiencing sun. And it's a very dark and gloomy place in the wintertime. Now spring and summer, it's popping. It's a lot of fun. But for me, the hustle and bustle of the city, you never slow down. And even when you're sleeping at night, you hear all the noises going on subconsciously, so your brain never shuts off. So
Brock Ashby (00:31:04):
Yeah, I think also what you do for fun over there is different just in bigger cities here in Sydney, I've what, I've never really lived that New York lifestyle, but when you see your friends, should we go for a walk? Should we go for a swim? You're doing things that are active and fun where you are going to the park if they have kids and you're playing around and stuff like that. But I feel like in New York, and I went to LA and Chicago when I went over to America and it was very kind, let's meet up for dinner. It's pretty sedentary or it's around eating or it's around drinking. And obviously people in Australia still party. They still drink and they still do all that stuff. I feel like it's more common over here to do things a bit more physical and a bit or a bit like healthy. Not that you're trying to meet up and be healthy, but it just kind of happens because of where you're based. Absolutely,
Tyler Murphy (00:31:57):
Yeah. The focus is definitely different in terms of the various options. And another reason for that, in New York, in LA, people go hike the stereotypical, they go do Runyon Canyon and
Brock Ashby (00:32:10):
You've done that.
Tyler Murphy (00:32:12):
There is a bit more of that element to where people can say, oh, let's go do something a bit more active today. But in New York, unless you're going to go walk in Central Park, as beautiful as it is, it gets old and do anything else, you have to take a train or a plane out of the city to experience any other kind of environment. So yeah, I guess that was my long-winded answer as to how it's a bit different ince between the two spots.
Brock Ashby (00:32:40):
Yeah, I guess I've just seen, especially dealing with a lot of clients in America and you being there, but also seeing what Australia is. I feel like American people in general kind of, well, I just felt like they've fallen for stuff a lot harder, but I feel like the marketing's a bit more aggressive over there. There's this guy that was, I don't even want to say his name, but he was saying, tea is bullshit. Tea is killing you if you drink tea, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not saying that all Americans are like this, but he's saying that it's the thing that's going to kill you and it's super extreme. And you watch that and you kind of get a bit like, oh man, maybe I shouldn't do that. And I feel like I've been trying to almost unteach this kind of extreme marketing because that's popping off. That's what gets used, that's what turns heads and especially
Tyler Murphy (00:33:38):
Fear-based marketing.
Brock Ashby (00:33:40):
Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's manipulation as opposed to motivation, which is what Simon Sinek talks in that book. Start with why, which is what I'm reading at the moment. But yeah, it's very, yeah, don't eat this or you're going to be fat or don't eat this, it's going to kill you, but the solution is wrapped up in their expensive package or their expensive product or whatever they have to do once you step back and see it. It's very obvious. But I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of that. Even that V shred dude, I'm not sure if you've seen him and pop up on your ads, but he pops up heaps on YouTube and he's saying that you need to be having this one food to boost your testosterone, and if you're not having this food, then you are wasting your time in the gym. And this is how the six pack celebrities get this, and obviously you have to sign up for this programme to get it, but it's very, if you're not doing this, you're a failure. You're wasting your time. So immediately you're like, if you're buying into it, you're fearful that you are wasting your time that you're not doing it right. It's just like an extreme version of marketing. I feel like it's very prominent over there.
Tyler Murphy (00:34:46):
Oh, absolutely. And I think another, especially in America, and as an American I can say this, we're always looking for the fastest option, the quickest route to get to what we want. And that's nine times out of 10. If it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. So between the fear-based marketing and this get skinny fast or get fit fast, people are just kind of ignoring the reality of the situation. For some people, it's just about taking the time to educate themselves. And again, a lot of the times people don't want to do that because they just want the quick route.
Brock Ashby (00:35:33):
It's such a hard sell because me as a personal trainer, I come from New Zealand, we tell it how it is and I'm like, well, it's going to take a year to drop. Someone's like, can I drop 20 kg? Someone told me I can do it in four weeks, or someone told me I can do it in eight weeks. I'm like, that's a lot of weight. That's going to take a lot of time. It's going to take the overload. And I go into this actually what it takes, not the secret gimmicky bullshit. I'm like, this is what it's going to take. And then I just kind of lose them. It's like, well, what mindset shift did you go through to change yourself from thinking, I need it tomorrow to, okay, this is going to take work.
Tyler Murphy (00:36:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think I signed on with you what, April, may, June, July, August, five months into covid. So I knew that I wasn't going anywhere. I knew that we had some time to work on some things and I definitely packed on the kilos in the initial few months of not doing anything and living a sedentary lifestyle. So for me, I think it was just kind of a change in circumstances. I was just kind of forced to being patient.
Brock Ashby (00:36:47):
Yeah, I think a lot of people went through that when covid hit.
Tyler Murphy (00:36:49):
Yeah, exactly. We were just kind of forced to just take a step back and focus on the things that we could focus on and have to just let everything else fall to the wayside and let it take its course in due time. And personally, I feel like our first eight weeks together, there was a drastic change. There was a drastic change, but that was because I just kind of put my face to the ground and got the work done. And I'm glad that I did so because I think it was that eight weeks that really made me shift perspective. And I'm not someone that can sit here and think of different exercises and how to balance out my macros. That's why I come to you, and that's why I trust you to do that for me. But it, it's a very simple thought process workout. If you want to gain weight, make sure you're having the right type of workout, but you're in a calorie surplus, you got to eat more. Or if you want to lose weight, you got to eat less. It goes hand in hand. And I think signing on with you and learning those basic principles of if this is what you want, this is what you have to do, and sticking to it and realising that there's no fad out there that's going to replace simple science.
Brock Ashby (00:38:26):
That's one thing that people get messed up with is the whole method versus principles. So you're talking about the principles, calorie surplus to gain weight, calory deficit to lose weight training hard or progressive overload training to a certain intensity. These are principles that it's based on. But going back to this kind of marketing that people are doing, they're talking about methods which is completely different. And I'm all for methods. If they work for you, if intermittent fasting works for Tyler, then I'm going to say, man, let's do intermittent fasting. But that's just a method. That's not a principle. And I think that's where people get a bit confused. They think I even have family members and I never push my personal training onto them like, oh, you should do this diet or you should try this or that. I just kind of let them go through it.
(00:39:13):
I don't like people pushing stuff on me personally as well, so I just kind of let them go through it. If they ask for me, I'll give advice, but if they don't ask, I'm not going to push it on them. And I have a family member that started fasting and she was like, I've lost weight because I've started fasting. But straight away there's this confusion with method versus principle because she thinks it's the fasting, but it's not the fasting that's helping her drop weight, it's the calorie deficit behind it. She's like, I've lost five kilos and it's been a month. And I was like, that's awesome. And I was trying to explain, but now she's frustrated that she's stopped losing weight and she's fasting, so now the method's not working, but I need to talk about the principle. And I feel like that's where people get a bit mixed up and it's that whole education thing in the background that you just need to have.
(00:40:07):
It's like that is actually what's making a change. But too many people are talking about methods, intermittent fasting, keto, vegetarian now carnivals, running rampant, eating raw stuff, and it's confusing. So I'm grateful for people like you because even you are like, you'll tell your friends it's the calorie deficit or it's the calorie surplus. It's like principles. You have to train hard, you've got to sleep more, you've got to get your son, you've got to get your steps in. These are principles that people can live by as opposed to methods that people try to live by, but then they stop working, they get confused by they're not working. It's because the principles they're standing by aren't really working anymore.
Tyler Murphy (00:40:46):
Absolutely. And I think people try to also overcomplicate things
Brock Ashby (00:40:51):
Because it sounds smart when it's complicated.
Tyler Murphy (00:40:54):
Exactly. Spot on, spot on. And what people need to realise is we are literally living goes through their own journeys, but when you just kind of break it down to the discussion of fitness and wellness, it's literally the most simple thing. Walk, move. It is proven that if you move, it's better for your brain and it's just better for your body and either eat more or eat less and eat the things you enjoy, but stay in your fence and you will tick all the boxes you are trying to tick to achieve your goals. And if you just realise that it's that simple. And for me, the way I realised it was that simple is I just kind of put my faith in you and said, mould me, Brock, mould
Brock Ashby (00:41:59):
Me. I'm your clay.
Tyler Murphy (00:42:00):
Yeah, I'm your clay mould. Me and everything else. Just I look back at everything else I've tried to do in the past and I'm like, how did I not get to this point sooner? It just makes complete and total sense.
Brock Ashby (00:42:17):
And I come back to that whole method verse principle thing. Even say you're doing Barry's bootcamp, which is where you started. You think it's because you're doing Barry's, that's why you lost weight. Oh, how'd you lose weight? Oh, it's, I'm doing Barry's. It's not because of you. There's no education of what actually Barry's did to get you there because companies often like to hide the principle because then you can do it yourself because then you might stop going to Barry's. But I kind of think the opposite, where if you actually empower them with the principle, if they go, they go, who cares? I think there's plenty of fish in the sea, but I think if you empower people and give them the keys, they're probably more likely to stay than to leave because they're like, thank you for getting me the results. What else can I learn?
(00:43:06):
And then you've got a client for life or you have a Barry's bootcamp member for life. That's my theory anyway. And that's kind of been proven I guess with my personal training where I've sustained clients for a long amount of time and kept a good relationship because I feel like I've almost been that hand when they're drowning in misinformation. I'm like, come to the light side where it's like this is the light, and then I feel like people will stay with personal training. When I was face-to-face, and I'm not saying this to gloat or anything, but when I had face-to-face clients, I was very active for the first three months of my career in Sydney, because in Sydney was where I really stayed for a longer time and personal trainer for three years. I was very active for three months I went from zero sessions to about 60 plus sessions per week.
(00:43:56):
In three months I was very hungry. I was talking to people on the gym floor and trying to get people into my client base and get people results, teach them things. And after that kind of three months, I never walked the gym floor again because I would give people answers. They would get the answers, but they wouldn't leave and say, oh, thanks Brock, I've used them for everything he's got and now I'm off. They would actually stay because they learned and they got results. And then if people want results, they'll stay where they got them because it's unfortunate a lot of people don't get results. It's actually very tricky to find a fitness solution, whether it's diet, whether it's training that actually works. So when people get it, they'll stay around. And I think that's true for any business. If a marketing agency gets you good return on investment, you'll probably stay with them.
Tyler Murphy (00:44:48):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're like my fitness Yoda. I just kind of keep coming back to you with helping me to get what I want to achieve. And I think whether somebody's coming to you personally or they're going to the Barry's bootcamps or whatever, that's kind of a tool for our toolbox. That's what is helping us work on ourselves. And if it works for you, well then you're going to continue to use that tool. And just like any tool, you got to sharpen it to make sure that you can continue to use it, and that's what's going to help propel you forward as you go along.
Brock Ashby (00:45:33):
Yeah, I think that's where it's important to keep learning. I think giving people tools is empowering for you also as well. I'm just speaking from as a trainer because I've taught you stuff, but I'm still learning because I need to keep learning because if you do get everything and you use up all your resources, then there's no need to stay with me or to stay with whatever you're using or Barry's bootcamp because then you've learned everything. So it keeps me on my feet as well. I've been saying this quite a while, but I've been studying for the first hour when I wake up because I just want to get it out of the way because I don't enjoy studying, but I have to do it because I'm going to teach you stuff later on that you'll be like, oh, I never knew that I was learning about oxidative stress this morning.
(00:46:16):
I don't find that super exciting, but it's what's going to help me with my programming, but also how you live your lifestyle and how stress can impact your results. So it's stuff that in the future I'll be able to tell people and tell you and tell everyone else in Team Brock Ashby, but if I wasn't sharing any information with you, you'd probably be like, well, I don't need to stick around anymore. So it's that kind of continual education, more educational journey. What would you say the biggest thing that you've learned from at the moment, not necessarily from me, but with fitness that has worked for you that you're like, I'm so glad that I learned this. What's been that thing?
Tyler Murphy (00:46:56):
Well, I'd say it's two things. Equally. I think it's the nutrition side of things, and you can still enjoy your food and enjoy what you like to eat. But I also think the progressive overload has been a really kind of like a all Yeah, if you do four sets of four at the same weight, you're going to be at that same weight. Whereas if you start maybe a little bit lower than what your max is and work your way, and maybe it's a mental thing, I don't know. But for me, when I go back into my Brock Ashby app and I see what the weight I did last week was I'm like, okay, well, where I was at my second set last week, I'm going to make that my first set so that I can just incrementally go up so that when I get to my last set, I'm just a little bit above where I was last week and everybody thinks that they got to throw another 20 kilo plate on each side, make the jump, and it's like, no, it's all about incremental. And instead of throwing a 20 kilo plate additionally on each side, and if you can, then you're not starting high enough first of all, but if you throw maybe a 2.5 kilo on each side, that's five kilos more than you did last week, and that's going to be where your body really starts to make the change. And by doing those things, I've been hitting PBS like crazy, and it's been amazing that each week I'm tagging you on Instagram like pb pb pb, and it's been a crazy response to my training.
Brock Ashby (00:48:38):
I think it's not the amount of weight that you're putting on, it's the fact that you're putting weight on. I think that's much more important. And it comes back to that kind of, you want that quick fix, quick result mentality that people have. I need to put 20 plates on and get strong really fast, but if you kind of zoom out and have this big picture and you're like, even a 2.5 plays awesome because when you look back over time and it gets harder to get stronger at that rate, it does get hard to get strong as you get more advanced because your body's like, well, I've seen a lot of this stuff. As you get stronger in those little increments, that's where the progress is. It's the overall trajectory. Those small, I'm even happy for 1.25 plates on each side, same, anything,
Tyler Murphy (00:49:26):
Especially on the heavy compound lists. I feel pride for any little bit amount of weight extra more than I did the previous week because I know that I'm getting stronger, and who knows, maybe I could have done that same amount the last week, but it's seeing it in front of me on the app to say, oh, well now I'm doing more than that because in the long run I'm just going to keep going higher. And for me, that's a huge motivation. It's like some people like to run and they like to get a better time than they did last week. For me, I like to see that I put more weight on the bar than I did last
Brock Ashby (00:50:06):
Week. And just from a physiological point of view, your body is saying, I've never seen the stimulus before. I've never lifted this amount of weight. I'm going to need more muscle to lift this. So then that's how to put it really simply. That's how you build muscle. You do things you haven't done before.
Tyler Murphy (00:50:26):
Yep,
Brock Ashby (00:50:26):
Absolutely. Yeah, that's how you do it. I think one thing that really shifted, I guess in my experience in terms of getting stronger is that as well, just the fact of progressive overload and whatever that looks like. For example, for me at the moment, my lateral raises have maxed out at, I'm doing 15 reps for 10 kg. If I go up to 12.5 kg, I can only get about eight reps and then I'm gone. It's a big jump for lateral raises. It's a small muscle. So what I've done, this whole programme is 15 reps for the first week, and then I've done 16 reps for the second week, 17 reps for the third week, and then 18 reps this week, which is what I've been doing just because I can't lift a heavier weight, but all I'm doing is doing an extra rep, but it's still a signal to my muscles like, Hey, you haven't done this yet, so I'm still going to be making progress. It may not be as fast or as exciting as putting in a new weight, but it's still the fact of progressive overload, and that's where that patience comes into it and that idea of making progress that you have to just get obsessed with. It's just the fact that about progress, not how much progress, because the more you do it, the harder it gets to make these crazy jumps and it kind of look impressive. It's often not impressive. 1.25 plates, they're like, they're tiny. Yeah.
Tyler Murphy (00:51:55):
And I think again, that's where people overcomplicate things. It's like just look at it in its simplest form, it is progress, and it doesn't need to be like, oh, it's progress, but you don't need to put the but in there. You've made a stride in your training and focus on that because that's going to be what keeps moving you forward to the next level.
Brock Ashby (00:52:25):
A hundred percent. It's just progress. Just be happy with that. It wasn't this, but I could have done that. It's just progress.
Tyler Murphy (00:52:32):
Yeah, exactly.
Brock Ashby (00:52:34):
I want to talk quickly about support mates because I love what it's about. You are wearing the T-shirt. I know that it's something that you're running. Can you tell people a bit what it's about because I'm a hundred percent behind it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a great cause.
Tyler Murphy (00:52:50):
Yeah. Well, thank you for your support, first of all. So I started Support Mates in 2019. We are a Gold Coast based disability support service, and we help young adults who are just transitioning out of high school find their place in the community through various community activities, but we place a big focus on health and wellness. So yeah, we'll go to the movies today or we'll go bowling today, but before we do anything, we're going to either do a gym workout or we're going to hit our steps and we're just going to get movement going because these young adults are at a very crucial part in their life where forming healthy habits is kind of integral to 'em living a healthy independent life. And there's going to come a time where all of our crew come from very beautiful families, but the reality of the fact is, is that there's going to come a time where they can't depend on mom and dad anymore.
(00:53:53):
I don't know if they're going to be able to depend on us At a certain point, it is our goal to make sure that they flourish and move on to the next stage in life, but before they get to that next stage in life, I want to ensure that they are forming healthy habits. And one of the things in the disability space that they talk about is choice and control. And choice and control is an amazing thing that an individual should have the right to make their own choices. But I think it is our responsibility as someone who supports people with disability to educate them on healthier choice and control, and putting them down a pathway where they're not going to end up with diabetes or they're not going to end up obese, and that when they're living on their own, whether it be in a group environment or they're living in their own apartment with 24 7 support, that they make the decision of, oh, hey, let's go out for a walk today. Or Oh, instead of going to Macca's Hungry Jacks or KFC, why don't we cook our own hamburger today? And getting 'em into that habit of just making a healthy choice.
Brock Ashby (00:55:02):
What's ways that you'll do that? You're walking, I've seen you've been actually going to the gym with them a few times.
Tyler Murphy (00:55:11):
We do gym programmes three days a week. We do a swimming programme where they actually do full Olympic lane laps one day a week. We do, we've got a great relationship with TAFE here on the Gold Coast, and we do a cooking course every other week just cooking healthy recipes and then the rest of our days are spent, the gang loves to go bowling or they love to go see a movie, and we do kind of those prize activities as I like to call 'em, as you guys did a workout today, let's go do something wild and crazy.
Brock Ashby (00:56:00):
Kind of rewarding the good behaviour.
Tyler Murphy (00:56:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:56:04):
And do you think that helps them associate health and wellness or doing something good for yourself with something positive?
Tyler Murphy (00:56:14):
Oh, absolutely. I think a big part of the draw for our crew is that they're just getting to do it alongside their mates. They are just spending time with their friends and they're associating that they're associating healthy outcomes with doing things with friends and doing those other fun things. So it's all of these influences that are really kind coming together that are hopefully going to help them set their own routine.
Brock Ashby (00:56:46):
And I think associating that with positive reinforcement is so important because often, especially as adults, when we're kind of past that young adult phase or even through that time, you associate or you tend to associate things like eating healthy as boring or bland or depriving yourself of something tasty or, oh, I have to do exercise. It feels like you're sacrificing something as opposed to building towards something. That's a very common, especially when I first started as a personal trainer and I was very naive. I thought, everyone loves training, everyone loves fitness. I was a sporty guy. I was like, if I could do sport my whole life, I would just do it. If I could eat well, I would, but I would deal with these corporate people that were kind of double, triple my age when I first started personal training and they were like, I hate working out. It sucks. I get sweaty, I get sore, I get tired. Food tastes boring. So it's really important, I think that you're doing that, associating it with building towards something with positive reinforcement, with, Hey, this is actually doing something good for me, as opposed to, oh, this is just making me tired and I'm not seeing the results. If you keep associating that with something positive, it's going to be something that you can sustain ly as opposed to just trying to put up with it.
Tyler Murphy (00:58:06):
For me, I'm right there with you. Fitness has always been something I've really enjoyed, and I think with my mental health side of things, knowing that the positive effects that working out have had on my mental health, I wanted to be able to share that with the young people that I support because there is a massive health gap in Australia for people living with disability compared to Australians living without a disability and the ripple effects that has on mental health is also pretty disturbing. So we can help change that, and we can help narrow that gap even just a little bit for our crew specifically by getting them into these routines. Well then I know that there is a less likelihood that they're going to be struggling mentally.
Brock Ashby (00:59:06):
Yeah, like I was saying, it's such a great cause, man, you're a champion for trying to close that gap and giving them the best opportunity in life. I want to wrap up the podcast with one question that I've been asking, and it's to do with just becoming better in general. This is the Better with Brock podcast, and my original thought behind this podcast was just to help people become better in any way, whether that's through training, whether that's through nutrition or just through simple changes they can make or simple acts of progress that they can do. What is one thing that you do every day to ensure that you become a better person?
Tyler Murphy (00:59:47):
Oh, I think working in the space that I work in is a big part of ensuring that I'm doing my part for society and for the world. But I think what allows me to do that is my focusing on my fitness and my nutrition because that puts me in a good head space. I can there so that I can then show up for the people that depend on me.
Brock Ashby (01:00:21):
So doing you, making sure that you're looking after yourself so you can look after other people.
Tyler Murphy (01:00:26):
Yeah, spot on. Yeah. You can't be the best version of you unless you're there for you first and you focus on that and by doing so, your ripple effect that that's going to have on the rest of the world. If you're in a happy mood that's going as woo woo as this might sound, that vibe is going to be what you put out into the world.
Brock Ashby (01:00:50):
No, I'm a hundred percent behind that. I'm the same. I'm the same. I wake up and I do my thing that I do every morning, my gratitude, my quotes, who I want to be, who I want to help, all that kind of stuff because I know that that sets me up. And so you have the physical people that you're showing up and working. You have your support mates. I have more like an online community or a team that I feel responsible to. And I used to have the face-to-face clients that I used to be responsible for as well. I remember when I was face-to-face personal training, I would be four hours sleep. I was trying to grow my online and do crazy hours and stuff. And I would show up every time, wake up 4 45, bang, walk into the gym, do my thing. Because you feel like you have these people to look after, but you can only look after them if you're feeling a hundred yourself.
Tyler Murphy (01:01:43):
Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. Because people, whether you realise it or not, people will know when you're not. A hundred percent percent.
Brock Ashby (01:01:51):
I got that a lot. Brock, you look tired today. I was
Tyler Murphy (01:01:54):
Like, ah. They
(01:01:56):
People will recognise when you're not in the space. One of my guys who has an intellectual disability, unfortunately there's a lot of people out in the world who will discredit someone with an intellectual disability, but we're all switched on in our own way. And there have been a couple of times where he's gotten in the car and I'll leave out the expletives, but he'll be like, bro, what is wrong with you today? And it's like, how did you what? And they just catch it. And we are doing a disservice to the rest of the world if we're not looking after ourselves, because then we're not showing up for everyone else.
Brock Ashby (01:02:42):
Yeah, a hundred percent. All right, man. Well I think we'll wrap it up there. It's been awesome. We've been chatting, well, we chatted for probably half an hour before we actually jumped onto this. So for us, it's been an hour and a half podcast, but you'll only get an hour of it. But man, I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy dude.
Tyler Murphy (01:02:59):
Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me along for this, so
Brock Ashby (01:03:01):
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, man, I wish you nothing but greatness with support mates and obviously with your results. Keep pushing hard. Keep that progressive overload. Keep slapping those two point fives on. Keep eating whatever you want, but staying within the fence. I like that. And yeah man, we'll talk very soon. I'll see you in your underwear for your photos, your check-ins this weekend.
Tyler Murphy (01:03:23):
Let's just turn into a very different type of podcast.
Brock Ashby (01:03:26):
Yeah, no, but actually I get, like you're saying, when you give someone your phone and they're looking through the photos and it's going to be heaps of photos of you and your underwear, that's my phone too. Except there's you and there's all these kind of other people around the world and people looking through my phone. What is this guy? There's all these people half naked in my phone, I swear. I swear. It's just body transformation coaching. That's
Tyler Murphy (01:03:52):
It, man. Well thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Brock Ashby (01:03:54):
Alright, man, we'll talk soon. Thanks bro. Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00:01):
What's up guys and girls? Welcome to episode number 13 of the Better with Brock podcast. I have a good friend of mine, a client of mine, Nicholas on, and as opposed to kind of starting how we normally would, we were just talking before we jumped on and he was talking about some really cool stuff. So I'd love him to just start with this story. First of all, you can introduce yourself if you want to, but I'd love to go from where you were, what your teacher said about the knees, and then just I had to stop him because I was like, man, we need to record this. You're spitting too much. Good stuff. We need to actually hit the record button or us, we'll do a whole podcast before we start. So yeah, just introduce yourself and then yeah, take off with that story.
Nicholas (00:00:47):
Sure. Yeah. Hey, my name is Nick. Yeah. Been a client for with Brock for over a year. I think it's been over a year. Yeah, it has. Yeah. So yeah, what was I saying? I was talking about how I've been trained in dance and there was a dance teacher I had in college
Brock Ashby (00:01:11):
And you used to dance at Disneyland?
Nicholas (00:01:14):
Yeah, I used to dance at Disneyland and that I think was something that was always a frustrating thing, just performing there. Just sometimes I felt like the level of performing that we were doing, I felt like wasn't matched with our pay and whatnot, and we were putting our bodies through all this crazy stuff. And I think that's another reason why I'm like, I try not to take for granted what my body can do for me. And then I think, again, what I was saying is I think we so often take for granted what our bodies do just breathing wise. It's like we go to sleep and we're able to just sleep and not choke to death because our body's keeping us alive in a weird scientific way. Yeah, but do you want to talk about the knee thing that I was saying or just,
Brock Ashby (00:02:14):
Yeah, I like that story
Nicholas (00:02:15):
Teach
Brock Ashby (00:02:17):
And also just to jump in, like I was saying before, I used to hang out with a lot of dancers when I was into singing and yeah, dancing looks easy. And then I've done a few beginners classes, man, it's worst, man. I was like, I looked like, especially when you go to the gym and you're a bit stiff, you stand out so bad, everyone looks like a wave
Nicholas (00:02:42):
Water. And there's
Brock Ashby (00:02:44):
Me in the back, like this gym guy walking around. It's a bad look. But yeah, you guys train so hard. You learn choreography for hours and hours and hours. And I was saying before, it's almost like singing, if you don't crack it, if you make it, if you don't become a star, you're often not compensated very well. And it's a struggle financially. That's absolutely. To be honest, one of the main reasons I jumped out of singing was I committed a lot of my youth into that from man, from 14 to 2021, I was fully into music. And New Zealand's hard and it's small and you try your best, you try songwriting, you try and meet with as many people as you can, but if you don't make it it, you're singing at pubs for little money, you're staying up late, you're doing all the stuff, knocking on doors, trying to get a meeting with someone or trying to write with a producer and stuff like that. And if it doesn't go big or if they don't believe in you, it's like a waste of time. It's a real battle. And for dancers, it's like, and there's a ticking time bomb. You can't dance forever,
Nicholas (00:03:52):
Especially for dancers. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:03:55):
It's definitely, you can't dance forever.
Nicholas (00:03:58):
No. Yeah, I know. That's the thing. I think you have to love it so much that you're just willing to go through anything for it and know that you may or may never, you may or may not ever be successful financially. You have to be cool with it. Yeah, you have to be cool with it. I mean, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't just give up on it. You could still love to do it. You could still pursue it, but maybe not in a way of making the big bucks or as your main way of income.
Brock Ashby (00:04:39):
Yeah, well that's that fine line of do you back yourself and go all in, which is what I did. And it didn't really pay off music-wise. Okay. I did a few cool things, but it's not like I was bringing home a lot of bread and you have to make that decision. But then again, it's like, well, would you rather be happy earning whatever, that isn't as much as you would like, but doing the thing that you love and waking up excited or would you rather do something else? Try squeeze it in on the side or just forget about it, make more cash, but be dragging yourself through life. And I've seen people on both sides of the spectrum. And to be honest with you, you'd rather be that person that isn't earning as much that's just loving life. You're so excited. They're so exciting to be around. They're excited about projects. They're always like opportunistic. And then there's the people that, because then you carry around regret, you have more money. So what if you're just kind of dragging yourself through? But yeah, before I keep talking, tell us that story about kissing your knees. I liked it.
Nicholas (00:05:44):
So I had this modern dance teacher and we'd warm up before every class and we'd go in, we'd tuck our knees in and she would have us kiss each one of our knees and just say thank you to them for just keeping us moving and keeping us from collapsing and everything. I always try to keep that in mind when I am exercising or if it just ever pops up, maybe if I even feel a little pain in my knee, I'll just go down and be like, thank you, I appreciate it. Please don't collapse on me right now. I appreciate not needing knee surgery and knock on wood, I ever have to. But yeah, and just going off that, it's like what I was saying earlier is just I think we so often take for granted how our bodies move and whatnot, and that our bodies can move.
(00:06:50):
And I think that I try to keep that in mind whenever it's hard for me to either get up in the morning or get to the gym or whatnot. Sometimes I think we have the mentality of like, oh, I have to go to the gym right now, or I have to get these 10,000 steps in, or whatever. Sometimes it's like, wait, no. It's like I get to do this because I'm able to do this and some people aren't able to do this, and what would it be like if I was this person that wasn't able to move my body the way that I can? And I dunno why I'm getting a little emotional about that, but I'm just thinking about it. I think just thinking about it, it's like I think I'm just grateful for that. I'm grateful for being able to do these things that we so often take for granted
Brock Ashby (00:07:55):
1000% man. And I think gratitude is where it all starts. I think if we all had that, I think if we all had that understanding of I'm so grateful for what my body can do and what it's doing on a daily basis without me even acknowledging it. I think we would all be in the gym or we would all be doing stuff that benefits our body. We would be eating better, we would
Nicholas (00:08:19):
Be eating
Brock Ashby (00:08:19):
Better. We would be taking advantage of what our body can do as opposed to pulling it through the ringer and just smashing it. It's such a rare thing and it blows my mind sometimes because I'm a personal trainer, so oh man, everyone's into fitness. It's so rare. It's so rare not to throw anyone under the bus that I saw on holiday at the Moldies, but when I was away, the gym was absolutely empty. And I know if you're in the Maldives, you are not there to,
Nicholas (00:08:51):
Yeah, you're not going there to go work
Brock Ashby (00:08:53):
Out. Yeah, you're not going there to become Mr. Olympia. But when you are, no one really looked, and this is just from the outside, obviously you can be healthy with them, but no one was really looked like they looked after themselves. It's such a rare thing, but I think if we had that understanding of what we have and what our body can do, we want to make that happen for as long as possible. So many people just ignore it. And it's crazy to me, and especially with my parents or people that age, that's when you pay the price. You don't pay the price. Now, as a young person, we're young, we're still able to do whatever. We're still training, we're still being active, we're still doing our work, and if it requires us to do physical things, we can do it. But then there's people in my dad's age bracket where their physicality limits them.
(00:09:53):
Joint pain, lack of muscle fragility. If you're fragile and you can't do things, like that's when it starts to pay off. I mean, where you pay the price, not pay off, that's where you pay the price when you're older. The work that we're doing now, because we have that level of gratitude to be like, we need to look after this because it's not a forever or guaranteed thing. You have to look after yourself. Now if you want a bit of picture and it's such a hard sell, how can you sell that to someone as a personal trainer? Oh, think about it. In 20 years time you'll be so healthy. Everyone's like, come on, I'll just deal with 'em when I'm there. But when you're there, it's often too late.
Nicholas (00:10:33):
It is too late. Yeah, definitely. I would definitely absolutely back up. What they say is health is wealth. It really is. And then you made me think about my dad. I have my dad and my mom and my mom has been a runner and she's been going to the gym forever. And then my dad who just hates broccoli and they're very different people and just doesn't really, I think probably the most active he was when I was growing up. He was pretty much just, he loved golfing and that's great. That's a great form of exercise. You get your steps in. But he kind of waited until he was a lot older to go to the gym and whatnot and didn't invest in his health as much as he probably should have in the beginning. I mean, I think that's something that's, yeah, that's just something that we don't realise how valid it is or how important it is until way later in our lives. And I think that's another thing. I see so many commercials of people, not people of, let's see, it's either losing weight or it's certain diabetes or whatever. And I always pay attention on who it's targeting and it's always targeting older people. It's not targeting younger people because we're
Brock Ashby (00:12:03):
Not paying the price
Nicholas (00:12:03):
Yet, right? Yeah, exactly. We're not paying the price yet, but we're paying the price at this age because we didn't invest in our health and fitness earlier.
Brock Ashby (00:12:16):
Well, I think also back in the day, they didn't even really know what Jim was. That's true. Actually. It's funny. Only
Nicholas (00:12:27):
Olympians did.
Brock Ashby (00:12:28):
Yeah. But my dad, I think he has a brief understanding of what I do for work, but he still can't really wrap his head around it. I'm like an online personal trainer, but my dad, he's getting better at his phone, but he's pretty hopeless in terms of being able to operate it. But if you show him and stuff, he's all good. He can do a Facebook messenger call now. So he's always on the video call, which is awesome. But other than that, he can't really do much. So when I say I try to explain, I put programmes in people's phones and then they follow
Nicholas (00:13:01):
And
Brock Ashby (00:13:01):
Do that in the gym, he's like, oh, okay. But it's still such a foreign concept.
Nicholas (00:13:05):
You can tell. It kind gets it.
Brock Ashby (00:13:08):
Yeah, it's a bit of a grey era. First of all, personal trainer, he kind of gets, but in that era, no one really went to the gym. It was all physical labour work, so
(00:13:19):
They were just labour and that was their physicality or they played a sport true, but it was never really gym or health and diets weren't really a thing. It was just like you just eat what you had or you eat what was available to you. So I don't blame them that they end up in this position where they don't have this knowledge of what nutrition is or what calories are or what training is or how important it is. My dad just signed up to a gym last week, which is amazing. I've been like, you want the best for your parents? I've been on his back like alcohol or eat this, it's going to be better. Not trying to force him into anything, but just trying to make him aware of it. And he finally signed up to a gym and he had a personal training session with this other guy because if I tried to sign him up or just put him on the app that we use, it was like he would just get overwhelmed. Well,
Nicholas (00:14:14):
Have you ever, sorry, just really quick. Have you ever tried to, or have you ever helped trained him ever trying to just got into
Brock Ashby (00:14:24):
The gym with him and be like, Hey, no, dad's never been interested in the gym, but as soon as he met his granddaughter, aria, my brother's daughter, his whole life's changed. He is like, man, I look after myself. I've got a granddaughter to be around for, which is so beautiful, such a beautiful reason. So now he's like, I want to be healthy and I want to be around for her and stuff. So he's into it now, but he's never been into it. He came over for our wedding recently and I was like, oh, dad, we're going to go to the gym. Do you want to come? But he was like, oh no, not really. I'll just do it when I get back. So I was like, okay, that's cool. I'm not going to be, you have to train. But he's finally getting into it. But even my dad, he's like a pretty solid dude.
(00:15:05):
He doesn't gym, but he's, there's just dudes that are kind of solid. You're just like, oh, he's solid. But even he was saying he was doing bench press with the bar and he was shaking, he was trying to be ripped, and he was all over the place and he couldn't control it. I was like, he's just getting into it. But it, it's so new to them. Even trying to explain to dad a calorie deficit, it's so hard to explain. So what I did with my dad is just give him recipes and then he would just eat them. And then he ended up losing weight because he was just cooking more. Wasn't trying to say, this is 300 calories and if you do this and then if you get 10,000 steps, all that kind of stuff. It was just too over his head. And I just kind of met where
Nicholas (00:15:51):
He was at. It's a lot.
Brock Ashby (00:15:52):
And I just gave him recipes and it worked. So sometimes it kind of just depends who's in front of you, but for them it just wasn't around fitness or gym. You think now for people, there's almost no excuse. We're so aware. There's so many people talking about fitness. There's so many gyms everywhere and most people are aware, even calorie wise, people are aware of foods that are better or worse.
Nicholas (00:16:21):
I mean, theyre aware. It's also just they don't choose always the best option.
Brock Ashby (00:16:31):
But that's where it comes down to that gratitude thing that I was talking about before. If they understood how lucky we are to have a body that works wholeheartedly and does everything that we want it, you should try and look after it for as long as possible.
Nicholas (00:16:45):
Yes, I agree.
Brock Ashby (00:16:49):
So without transformation, obviously as you said, we've been working together for well over a year, and you're a busy dude. You're working and we're talking before you have a side gig that you do and you have a very active social life.
Nicholas (00:17:04):
Yes.
Brock Ashby (00:17:05):
What do you do, talking about being aware of calories, and obviously you are in team, bro, Ashby, so you have this big understanding of kind of education, but how do you stay consistent when you live such a busy lifestyle? One thing that people really struggle with, and I struggle with too, when I'm super busy, I have a pretty scheduled life. I like routine. I'm at home so I can make the meals I want, but you are out and about. How do you stay consistent? What are some things that you have that keep you on a roll?
Nicholas (00:17:38):
I would definitely say it's the most easiest for me to be consistent is definitely my work week or Monday through Friday. It's just that's when can find the best routine. And I'm so against routine and I've been trying to just get better with it. So I think what has helped me is just trying to plan accordingly. And we usually, without fail, I'll always have yoghourt for lunch. And that's something that I have learned from you is just a solid way to get your protein in. And what I love, I don't know, I've eaten a lot, but I love that there's so many different ways to add different things. I love it so much that I want to make a store, a yoghourt store that you just sell Greek yoghourt and you just have all these different toppings, kind of like an ice cream store. It's probably not going to be as popular as an ice cream store.
Brock Ashby (00:18:42):
People be like, is that gelato? Or
Nicholas (00:18:46):
No, it's just actually plain Greek yoghourt.
Brock Ashby (00:18:48):
You just walk right back out. Yeah. Do you know where Ben and Jerry's is?
Nicholas (00:18:54):
No, but there's a lot of protein in this and it's good.
Brock Ashby (00:18:57):
Are you grateful for your buddy? Are you grateful? If you're grateful, you'll stay. You are not serious about your goals yet.
Nicholas (00:19:10):
Get the hell out of here.
(00:19:13):
Yeah. So I mean, I think that's the main thing is I think just trying to really just have this, just remember my goals, where I want to go and I want my body to be, and you have to, I'm learning that I really have to prioritise what I want for myself, and sometimes that means I'm sorry I can't go out right now because I need to prioritise my sleep. And that's something that I'm also very against. I mean, I'm not against sleeping, but I love having a social life. I'm a very extroverted person. I like doing stuff with people and whatnot, and that's something that I'm learning at least when I'm in a programme like yours that we're doing right now. It's like I think, okay, well this is an eight week programme. I could do this for eight weeks. It doesn't mean I'm doing this for an entire year. I can't. I can stick to this. I just need to prioritise what I really want and know that it is that it's valuable.
Brock Ashby (00:20:39):
So with that thing, so say you have your body, what you want to say look like or what you want to feel like or how strong you want to be, so you have that goal and you're aware of say things like protein. You're having your yoga bowl instead of having something else. You're very aware of it. So you have that, you're aware that you need your protein intake. You're aware of what you want to achieve with your body transformation. But with that going out lifestyle, you said you sometimes have to say no because you want to get a good sleep. You train early in the morning. I know that from you. You wake up at four 30 where you've been trialling it recently and you've been going to the gym at like 5:00 AM 5:30 AM So what else do you do throughout the day or on a weekly basis in your routine to try and stay on it when you're out? Snack wise or training wise? Snack, I know that you, because you're out and about and you want to see your friends, and then after you are up early and you're off to the gym at 5:00 AM So it's done
Nicholas (00:21:39):
Definitely Monday through Friday. I mean, I'm definitely not doing anything outside of that. I mean, maybe on Thursday nights I would go out and whatnot, but I've taken a break from that and even say I was to go out with friends just for dinner or whatever it is, definitely I'm more likely to say yes to having a couple drinks or okay, I'll have some dessert or whatnot. So it's about maybe what I'll do is I'll eat before I go out with them so I'm full. So I don't say yes to having that bowl of mac and cheese that will make me go over my calories and whatnot. Another thing that I do is I try to, sweets is just a killer for me. So once I have one Oreo, that whole Oreo, that whole package is going to be gone. Matters of a day or two. Yeah, I can't. So I think that's something that you brought it up a couple days ago. If you're one of your wees sweets, just don't have them around. And that's what I'm trying to do. But another thing that really helps me is I'll get, there's these new protein, I don't know if you guys have Poptarts, but Yeah, we have
Brock Ashby (00:22:58):
Poptarts, but I don't know if we have protein ones. They're
Nicholas (00:23:01):
Protein. Oh my God. So they're addicting and I can't stop eating them, but that is a good substitute because they're low in sugar. I think it might be even zero sugar. I think they're keto friendly because they're made with erythritol, but they're like 20 grammes, 20 grammes of protein and 170 to 180 calories, and they come in all different flavours, and they're just like the best. So
Brock Ashby (00:23:32):
Finding substitutes for your sweet tooth is a good
Nicholas (00:23:34):
One for you. So yeah, so if I want Snickers, I'm not going to have a Snickers. I'll have maybe a protein bar that has chocolate in it and stuff, so I can have my chocolate and I can have my protein at the same time.
Brock Ashby (00:23:49):
Yeah, I think that's a great way to do it. Even though in the back of my mind, there's this voice that's like, you can eat whatever you want.
(00:23:58):
You can have the real snick if you want, but sometimes you're just like, I want something similar, but I just don't want that because then that's going to mean I'm going to have to sacrifice elsewhere. For example, I know that every night I could have some Ben and Jerry's, but sometimes when I'm trying to be more mindful or if I just want a bigger volume of ice cream stay on the top of topic of ice cream, I like ice cream. Sometimes I'll get this Peter's, it's like low sugar Peter's ice cream and just get vanilla. But there's also this chocolate Ripple one or Raspberry Ripple or something. There's two other flavours I'll get them because I know I can have more of it as opposed to Ben and Jerry's, which is if I eat the whole tubs, it's a pretty, I think it's like a thousand calories or something, or maybe even
Nicholas (00:24:43):
More. I believe that probably more.
Brock Ashby (00:24:45):
Yeah, probably more. You can eat quite, and I could eat it if I wanted to, but then there's sometimes where I'm like, but I want more volume or this time if I have this lower sugar, then I could have a bigger dinner type of thing.
Nicholas (00:24:58):
And
Brock Ashby (00:24:58):
That's the beauty of flexible dieting. And I always say it's not about squeezing as much junk food into your diet. It's about doing what works for you. If you want to have Ben and Jerry's, you could have Ben and Jerry's, but if you wanted to have a low fat, low carb, high protein ice cream that's at the grocery store, you could still have that as well. It's not limited to healthy food and junk food. You could have in between food as well. It just
Nicholas (00:25:25):
Really, halo top is amazing.
Brock Ashby (00:25:27):
Halo top. Yeah, I like Halo top. I like the chocolate chip cookie dough one. That's my jam.
Nicholas (00:25:31):
Yeah, I'll have to try that one.
Brock Ashby (00:25:34):
Yeah. What's
Nicholas (00:25:35):
Your favourite flavour on that one? I would say as of right now, I think just plain old chocolate actually has it got
Brock Ashby (00:25:41):
Bits in it though. I love the bits in it. If there's no bits in it, no bits. Yeah, you have to have the bits. You have to have the bits. That's why I like the chocolate chocolate chip cookie dough one, because you can have you bite it on the cookie dough.
Nicholas (00:25:55):
Alright, I'll try that next time. But yeah, I love that you could have a whole pint of that and it's, or 300, 330 calories and 22 grammes of protein or something like that. It's
Brock Ashby (00:26:10):
As opposed to a quarter tub of spinning areas that
Nicholas (00:26:13):
Has maybe 0.5 s of
Brock Ashby (00:26:16):
Protein. Protein negligent does not
Nicholas (00:26:20):
Exist. Negative five.
Brock Ashby (00:26:28):
So how are you finding the early morning workouts? Because shared this with you? My opinion with early morning workouts, I've tried it before. I remember when I first moved to Sydney, I used to wake up at around five 30 or five or six, I can't really remember, but I used to just wake up and have, I was still into fat burners and stuff back then. This was maybe six or seven years ago. I was like, I want to be shredded. So I popped this thing, it was called, I can't remember what it was called. Maybe it was Hydroxycut. No, that was a pill. It was something, it was kind of similar to an oxy shred or a fat burner that supplement companies would market to you. And I fell for it, obviously, and I'd have it in the morning and I was like, yeah, caffeine. And I'd go to the gym and then I'd do 30 minutes on the stand master and then I'd train and I'd train out of pure determination. But I know that I wasn't as strong as I could be, and it never really worked for me. Physiologically. I would push through, but I was always battling
(00:27:29):
And I'm not afraid of a battle for a workout. So that's why I was saying I committed to it for a while,
(00:27:34):
The early morning workouts, and it was still dark when I was training. You just go in and do it. But now that I train later in the day, which I've found out only through experience, which is what works for me and my schedule as well. Don't forget that, but I feel much better training in the afternoon. And I can't, well, I could train early in the morning, but I know that I'm never really going to lift heavier weights than I did previously because I'm always just a bit lethargic and I need a bit of food behind me when I'm training. How are you finding training in the morning?
Nicholas (00:28:06):
I mean, as of now, I love it. I mean, my goal has always been to be there at 5:00 AM and as of now, I've been doing it for almost two weeks at 5:00 AM And it's hard because I definitely have to go to bed earlier. I just can't just stay up till 11 and then wake up at four 30. That won't work for me. But what I love, I, and I don't normally eat anything before it. I guess I, I feel still, I have a lot of energy in the morning. I could be, I think
Brock Ashby (00:28:43):
You're an energetic person too, though. You're a very energetic dude.
Nicholas (00:28:47):
Yeah, I would say that. I would say that I am find, even if I have five or six hours of energy, once I get into the gym and I get moving, everything starts working and my engines start going and it's like, I'm good. And I would say that I love it, mainly because I feel so accomplished at 6, 6 30 in the morning. I've already done this workout and now I have the whole day ahead of me whole day to just fit in all this other stuff. I mean, mostly it's work, but I think I prefer to do it all before work because I have now this feeling of productivity. I'm ready to start. It's just a great way to start my day. It's like a great good cup of coffee, just the way to start day.
Brock Ashby (00:29:44):
Yeah, that's one thing that I really enjoyed about training in the morning, probably more so from a psychological point of view than physiologically what my body was telling me. I love the idea of training and then not having to do anything later on. Because I was saying before on the live coaching call for built by Brock, that sometimes the workout hangs over you. You are working or you're with friends and all that. Not that it's a stressor, but you're like, oh, I still need to get in my workout, so I'll probably have to leave my friend an hour early. I need to go to the gym. Or I'll probably have to, I probably can't make that call or do that email because I've got to go to work or else if you don't do it, you just miss your workout. So that's one
Nicholas (00:30:25):
Thing. My main thing is I think that so much more can happen either after work or during work that it'll just either drag on and I'll have to miss my workout. I think I just have, I'm more likely to miss it if I don't get it in right in the morning. And there's also times where I'm just gassed after work. I'm like, oh God, now I have to go to the gym and I have to really lift these weights. And I've done it before I've had to, but there's been also times where I'm like, oh, okay. That was actually a lot better than I thought. But I also just dread getting to the gym and it's just packed of everyone else who's here after work because they wanted to get their workout in after. And now I'm fighting for all these machines and all these weights and my workout's taking even longer when I get there, right at 5:00 AM it's right when it opens. There's all these ways, all these things available. So it's kind of like the lesser of two evils, I guess, in a way because I now have the freedom to, I could just run around that whole gym and get this
Brock Ashby (00:31:36):
Workout. Super everything.
Nicholas (00:31:37):
Yes.
Brock Ashby (00:31:39):
You don't just do it all. Yeah, I think that's the trade-off, and that's all it is in life with every decision that we make really. But when we're training and we're looking at when we train or how often we need to train and stuff like that, it's just like what works for you? And obviously this is working for you. Now. If my schedule was so crazy from 7:00 AM till 7:00 PM I couldn't do anything. I would get up at five, train till six 30, get back, get ready to shower, and then go from seven. It's just like what works. And we were also talking about this in the live coaching call as well, that if you have kids, that's a whole different story. Or you have a family, you have babies crying and you operate often on their schedule when they wake up, when they need to sleep, when they need to eat, when they need to snack. It's just trade off. I have a brother, I have friends going through their babies growing up. They're like one or just turned one or getting close to one. And it's hard for to train. It takes discipline.
Nicholas (00:32:43):
Yeah. My sister actually, she just gave birth in January and congrats. Thank you. Yeah, uncle Nick. I'm excited. It's crazy. She's the cutest thing ever. But yeah, we share each other's activity on our watches and started, yeah, so I just saw that they started working. They just started working out again and everything. But I just think about them. I'm just like, wow, how do you make it work?
Brock Ashby (00:33:13):
Yeah. How's she managing it at the moment?
Nicholas (00:33:15):
I don't know. I think they take shifts because she's on maternity leave. She's there, he works out, I think closer to when I work out because usually when I'm ending my workout, he's eventually ending his workout. And then I know that she ends for, I think she's not as she's, I think she works out whenever she can.
Brock Ashby (00:33:37):
I don't think as with a newborn, I'm just going to go now. You go to sleep. Okay. And you stay asleep.
Nicholas (00:33:44):
Yeah, I'll be right back. She's just, she's at the mercy of the baby. But yeah, I commend anyone who can do that. I don't know. I don't know how I would be able to fit that in. I don't know. I tell myself when I become a dad, if I become a dad, I will make sure that I will work out it. Not every day, but I'm not going to let myself go
Brock Ashby (00:34:19):
Fight. Yeah. I think that taking shifts is a strategy that I've seen that's worked, and it's the only way that would work.
(00:34:28):
And actually, I've been thinking about it too, like, well, that's going to happen in my life soon. All my friends are doing it. Your friends get married and then you get married and your friends start having kids, and then you have kids. I was thinking maybe I'll just make a little pen for him or her to be in while I just lift, set up a gym at home somewhere and just put them in this little area and I'll play with them in the rest period, do my squats, whatever, and then go back and hang up with them. I was like, man, I think that's what I'm, I'm going to have to do something.
Nicholas (00:35:00):
It'll probably be something just like that. Yeah, that's something
Brock Ashby (00:35:03):
I've thought about a lot.
Nicholas (00:35:05):
Your life completely changes when you have kids. I mean, I'm not definitely talking about from personal experience, but I mean, I can just only imagine from then on. It's like your life is
Brock Ashby (00:35:17):
Different,
Nicholas (00:35:18):
Different way, different, a whole different way of doing everything.
Brock Ashby (00:35:24):
So coming back to your transformation and information, it's actually nice to hear how you stay consistent out and about because it's tricky. That
Nicholas (00:35:34):
Hasn't always been easy.
Brock Ashby (00:35:36):
Yeah. Okay.
Nicholas (00:35:38):
I would say
Brock Ashby (00:35:39):
Because trained a lot of people, especially face-to-face, when I was a trainer in Market Street in the heart of Sydney, CBD, I would train a lot of busy professionals, just like with a schedule of yours. You're working all day, you're doing what you need to do. But then another thing that they would have to do was go out and try and smooth their clients and take them for dinners and take them for alcohol
Nicholas (00:36:01):
And
Brock Ashby (00:36:01):
Take them partying and do what they need to do to win over their clients or just create great relationships with people. And that is something that they always struggled with, and I would often do. I would be like, the restaurant you're going to, or I said to my one client who, he was the director of the business, and his role was just hanging out with clients all day. He was so good with people. He was a cool dude. He was super charismatic. Everyone loved him, and he was the life of the party. So the directors were like, Hey, man, your skills, you just talk and hang out and just be, everyone's like, mate, win the deals, whatever. So you are just like the face. And then the other directors were the nerds in the background checking finance reports and making sure all the numbers are legit and stuff. But
Nicholas (00:36:54):
That sounds like a fun job to me.
Brock Ashby (00:36:55):
Yeah. Oh man, he had, I was like, are you working? He's just walking around in a suit. I'm like, whatcha doing after this? He's going for lunch. And I was like, what about after that? He is like, oh, I'm going for dinner. Going for dinner. Serious.
Nicholas (00:37:09):
Yeah. Then going a club after that.
Brock Ashby (00:37:11):
Yeah, no, exactly. That was his life. He was like a superstar when he got there, because he had the company credit card. He was going out, clients and that stuff, but he was also, it looked like he was just having fun, but he was also really good. He was also winning clients over and having great relationships and getting referrals and all that kind of stuff. But he was just so natural about it. And I went out with him a few times. I was a personal trainer. He was like, oh, I want you to meet my mate. And I started training his mates and stuff like that. So he was really cool like that. And I saw him out there hanging out with people. He doesn't look like he's working. He's not stressed at all. He's just like, that's just what he did. But what I did for him was I said, send me all the names of your restaurants. He sent them back. His goal was weight loss. And I was like, have this, have this, this. So I literally created him a list of when he went here, he'd eat this, when he ate, when he went here, he'd eat this. And that's the lens I'd had to go to try and save this guy, because also his clients are drinking, so he would drink too.
Nicholas (00:38:14):
That the thing,
Brock Ashby (00:38:16):
It's hard, but there has to
Nicholas (00:38:18):
Be, you feel pressured. You feel pressured because especially when you go, yeah, when you go out with friends and they're all ordering drinks and you're just like, oh, no thanks. And then sometimes they'll give you this look like you're an alien. Y'all going to have anything. You don't even say anything. But then it could be so easy to just give in and say, you know what? Yeah, I'll have a double margarita or I'll have, and then yeah, I'll get a dessert as well. It's so easy to do that in that setting.
Brock Ashby (00:38:49):
But yeah, it has to be a trade-off. And that's the thing that I was trying to explain to my client, used to having anything and everything. You know what I mean? He's a director. He was cashed up. He was doing everything he needed, and I was like, you can't have that and that if you want this for him. He is like, but I get everything. What do you mean? I was like, I was trying to educate calorie deficit on stuff, but he didn't want to worry about it. So I said, well then just eat this. Just eat this and eat this. But then the challenge was always the party lifestyle as well. It's just a challenge.
Nicholas (00:39:27):
Absolutely.
(00:39:30):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I do think about that sometimes when I, I'm not criticising people at the gym, but I do look at people when they're lifting and stuff, and sometimes I wonder, what are you eating? Or, because they do seem to be working out, but it also seems like they don't eat the right things, if that makes sense. And I feel like sometimes we also think we don't understand how calorie deficits work, and I didn't really understand how they work until I met you. And I was like, oh, so I just need to eat a little bit less, maybe a lot less. And then in addition, this physical activity and whatnot, and you'll lose fat. That's something that kind of was maybe sold to me, but I didn't really believe it.
Brock Ashby (00:40:26):
But it's such a new concept as well, was saying people in our parents' age bracket, they're not aware of calories, they're not really aware of diets or what foods are worth and stuff like that. So I remember when I was working in gyms, I was there, man, 14 hours a day. I was training people or trying to find potential clients or studying in the PT room. I was there a lot. And I would see people just come in looking the same, looking the same, looking the same. And you can tell by their body language, and they're following a programme that they want to see change, but they're not seeing it. And people, it's like an old school mentality as well, that if you train, it's all good. You can just eat whatever you want.
Nicholas (00:41:10):
That's what I was going to say,
Brock Ashby (00:41:11):
But it is just not the truth. Well, it is. If you just want to be strong and you just want to enjoy training and just not really worry about body composition, that's fine. But you can tell that they do want to see a change because in between sets, they're walking up in the mirror, they're like, hold this thing back. So they can see their stomach or they flex their muscles and they're checking it out that they're concerned about it, but they're not really equipped with the knowledge of how to change it.
(00:41:39):
But yeah, that's why I'm so pro education. You just have to really understand that if you want to say it. But it's so hard to convince people, and that's why I don't spend time trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced. I did that on the gym floor when I was new to personal training. I was trying to engage with people and say, Hey, blah, blah, do you want help with anything? And they'd say, oh yeah, I'm trying to lose weight, blah, blah. And I'd be like, okay, it's like this and this and this, and then they'll just not want hear it. So they wanted the result, but then they didn't want to worry about how to do it. They just want to talk about it, but not really do it.
Nicholas (00:42:19):
Yeah, it's a whole self-discipline. You tell them, this is what you do, and they're like, is there another way to do this? Because I don't, don't that one,
Brock Ashby (00:42:27):
That doesn't sound that good, man.
Nicholas (00:42:29):
That doesn't sound like the way that I want to do it. I'd rather do a pill or I'd rather do something that's quick and easy, something that's going to just get me there that straight away. It's not like that. And I think that's something that I think that's a lot of us. I did do the keto diet for a while. Me too. I don't know how long I did it. I did it for a minute and I saw great results and stuff, and then I think I hit a plateau and I was like, okay, eating all this fat or this meat, whatever, it's not really doing as much as it used to. And God, do I miss carbs and whatnot?
Brock Ashby (00:43:08):
The thing about the keto diet coming out of it is so tricky coming out of it when I stopped and I was like, first of all, feeling super deprived of carbohydrates because when there's a, you cannot eat it. You're like, I must eat it in the back of your head. It's like, I must, I will. If it's the last thing I'll do, I'll find a way. So as soon as you decide, yeah, and I reached the plateau too, because in keto there's this thing, this saying where it's just eat fat to burn fat, eat fat to burn fat. So that's all you're doing. You're eating cheese, you're eating nuts, you're eating super fatty cuts of meat, eggs, put all the yolk in and eat it and stuff. And yeah, I lost weight too, and I felt lean. My training was pretty average though. I didn't feel super energetic.
Nicholas (00:44:02):
No, that's so true. You
Brock Ashby (00:44:04):
Found that as well.
Nicholas (00:44:06):
There was actually this point, so I've told you, I walk on stilts and I did this event that it's just gruelling. It's a very physically demanding job. And there was a point that, and I'm doing this all without carbs, and we have actually a sports trainer, a physical trainer at work. She knows that I'm working with her and she's helping me with my fitness goals and whatnot, and she knows I'm on keto, and she's like, for this, you're going to have to start eating carbs because there's no way that your buddy's going to laugh. Your buddy needs these carbs to keep you going. And then one time I was squatting down or whatever, and I just kind of passed out in a way because I just didn't, I was going at such a high speed and moving and everything, and just all I was working off of was zero Gatorade, zero and maybe some peanut butter. I don't know. It's like,
Brock Ashby (00:45:07):
Yeah, but training just falls through the roof in terms of energy and even just productivity levels throughout the day. I just felt like a bit of a zombie. There was no up, it was just like I wake up and there was just a slow decline until I went to sleep. That's all it was. It wasn't like, oh, I feel good after eating, and now I feel a bit tired. It was just
(00:45:28):
Straight down. I didn't feel that great. But then afterwards, after I hit a plateau, because I wasn't aware of calories, I was just like, eat fat, burn fat, eat fat to burn fat. So that's all I did. Well, I'll just eat fat. And you have no awareness of how many calories you're actually consuming. You're probably not even in a deficit. So that's why I wasn't losing body fat. So just eating all this fat, which is actually more calories than protein and carbs, I'm just eating it on it. And now I just got frustrated. I had no energy. My training was average. I wasn't seeing results. And then I was just like, man, must eat cs. And then that's where, yeah, you just go off the rails. Then you gain all the weight that you kind of lost on the kiddo diet because you just take in all these carbohydrates and then you're like,
Nicholas (00:46:08):
That's literally what happened to me.
Brock Ashby (00:46:10):
Yeah, that's literally what happened to me too. And my friend back in New Zealand told me that too. He is like, oh, I did keto. And I was like, how'd you go? He's like, oh, I lost 27 kg. And then I was like, oh, awesome, man. Are you still doing it? And he's like, nah, man, I just,
Nicholas (00:46:24):
Now I'm up 50 kg.
Brock Ashby (00:46:26):
Well, he kind of came back up seven kilos, which sounds like nothing in the broad scheme of things, but he did. Seven kilos is still quite a lot, but it's just a real unsustainable thing to stick to. And even just eating out with people. I understand you go out with your friends a lot eating, and you enjoy a drink every now and then. And too, you can't really engage in that either when you're on a keto diet.
Nicholas (00:46:52):
No, no, no. I mean, yeah, I would go to, I don't know, what would I do? I forget. I would go to an Italian restaurant instead of getting pasta, I would get just four meatballs, please. That's all I would get. And just put a shit tonne of mozzarella on it,
Brock Ashby (00:47:10):
Which sounds pretty good, but when you have over and over and over again,
Nicholas (00:47:14):
Yeah. Yeah. It was only so much I really missed carbs. And I think that's another thing. When I started eating carbs again, I felt guilty because I was like, oh my God, I'm going to swell up and going to just, I don't know. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:47:33):
Yeah. No, I felt that too. And I did as well. You just overcompensate because you've missed it so much. You're like, I haven't had carbs in so long. I just want to eat carbs. So you do swell up. It's body fat, but it's also water as well. You're holding more water. Yeah. And that's where balance is hard after you go through things like that because you're like, well, I looked good when I was all keto and now I'm eating carbs. How do I find this balance swinging? You're like, should I go here or should I go here? And then you have to find this, well, I feel guilty when I have rice, which is crazy, or spaghetti or something. But you have to slowly work on this relationship with food.
Nicholas (00:48:11):
Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:48:12):
And I think we're always working on it. We're always trying to improve and be like, okay, well, it's okay to eat carbohydrates, and once you get there, you have this great relationship and you can start to eat
Nicholas (00:48:24):
Food
Brock Ashby (00:48:24):
Groups from everywhere, but it definitely doesn't happen overnight. I struggled with that for a long time.
Nicholas (00:48:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm still struggling with a relationship with food, and I think a lot of us, we feel like, damn, I had an extra piece of pizza. I, we'll either beat ourselves up about it and we'll be like, okay, well now I have to go and run 15 miles tomorrow to just get that one piece of pizza off my body. But it's okay. It's okay that you had that piece of pizza. Just get back onto the horse tomorrow. Okay. And I, yeah, I just think a lot of people either who struggle with weight or diet can deal with that. I mean, I've been dealing with it since I was a little kid, and I think something that I've actually ever told you, but when I was seven, I was diagnosed with this brain disease and I was a really, really, really skinny kid.
(00:49:37):
But because of this brain thing that happened, they had to put me on steroids basically. My brain was swelling and they had to calm down the swelling by putting me on steroids. And so they put me on steroids and I swelled up, swelled up, swelled. It looked kind of abnormal, got picked on a lot. And it was upsetting to me because I was like, you guys, I'm not just like this because I ate a certain way. I'm like this because of this condition. And then I got skinny again, and then when I was nine, it happened again. And I was like, you got to be kidding me. This is already a rare disease and I'm getting it twice. So it was always something that I had this fat that was a part of me that was I no control over. So I think that's just something that I think maybe ever since I was that young, I've always felt like I was a prisoner of, and I was never able to. I mean, there's definitely fluctuated with my weight, but I'm now at a good point where I feel confident in my body.
(00:50:52):
But I think just growing up like that, it's hard. You get, I got looks and everything from all these kids, and I try to always remember that I try not to ever poke fun at people for the way they look and whatnot, because you don't know their story or whatever. A hundred percent. But yeah, I think I relate mean a lot of us relate so much to people with unhealthy relationships to food because we always feel guilty that if we eat this, we're going to bloat up and whatnot. I have a friend who's the skinniest skinniest person ever, and I don't know if maybe she suffers from body dysmorphia, but I think she looks at herself and she thinks she looks like a whale. And it's like, I think I could see every bone in your body. I'm so sorry, but it's like you could definitely have a couple.
Brock Ashby (00:52:07):
But that's the thing. When you are in that situation, I know as well, I was at a time where, and this is the photo that I always post on Instagram where it's 2014, I'm super skinny. My waist was 28 and it's now 32. It was really small, and I was like at that point where you're the leanest or skinniest that you've been, you almost feel the fattest. It's a crazy,
Nicholas (00:52:32):
It's insane.
Brock Ashby (00:52:33):
It's a crazy perception from the outside. You're like, what the hell are you talking about? You are blind. What are you looking at? And all you can see is the smallest little pinch. You're literally forcing your skin out. You're like, look, look, I'm fat. You're pulling this. It's like, man, everyone has that. Look at your cheeks. You have that. Everyone has that. It's like, yeah, I think that's the trick. And to jump into the fitness industry, that's one thing that's almost glorified with personal training competitions and body comps and stuff. You have for the chicks, there's bikini comms, and for the guys, there's male physique comps and stuff, and the board shots, and they're all lean and people are, that's what I need to look like. And if you're not that where they literally stab themselves 20 weeks and train their nuts off, if you're not that you're a failure. It's like, man, that's not success. No,
Nicholas (00:53:32):
No, no.
Brock Ashby (00:53:33):
If you know what it takes to get that lean, which I've never stepped on stage, but I've been lean, and like you said, your friend is super lean. You see what they eat, and that doesn't feel like success sometimes. That should not be the goal to just starve yourself. Because if you want to achieve success, if that's success, it's very easy. You just don't eat and you just train hard. That's it. That's like one, two, bang, done. That's it. But that's not success. There's so much more to that. It's like, how do you feel? Feel on a productivity basis? How strong are you? How do you feel about yourself? Because often it's like the people that compete have the worst relationships with themselves because they're always comparing themselves to that person that's at peak week and they're lean and you can see all their abs and stuff like that. And now you can't maintain that for the rest of your life. It's literally unhealthy to be that lean. No one recommends it. There's a reason that as soon as they finish their competition, they start eating like you are depriving yourself. You're in a state that's emergency. You shouldn't be there. That is not the goal.
Nicholas (00:54:46):
Yeah. I mean, you may look amazing and whatnot, but I mean, just don't keep it going forever.
Brock Ashby (00:54:53):
No, but it's impossible, man. I want to be aware of time. We're going to talk forever. I want to finish on, well, first of all, I want to say I appreciate you sharing that stuff about when you were younger. I know that stuff's not easy to share. Yeah,
Nicholas (00:55:08):
No problem.
Brock Ashby (00:55:09):
But just to wrap up the podcast, I like to ask a question. This is the Better with Brock podcast about becoming better in any way, shape or form, whether that's with your body, whether that's the mindset that you carry, but what's one thing that you do every day that makes you better?
Nicholas (00:55:31):
I wouldn't say it's every day, but I would say it's pretty much kind of similar to what you do. We have kind of a gratitude journal. Just try to always be present and be grateful for at least one thing every day. It could honestly be anything. Kiss the knees, whether your knees, that your body can move, that you have a roof over your head, that you have blankets, that you have food, that you have a job. Especially, I think that's another thing coming out of quarantine or coming out of this pandemic. We still are in this pandemic, but this pandemic has thrown our whole world into this crazy whirlwind. And a lot of us were unemployed and some are still unemployed, and I can't imagine how that would be. And thankfully I had friends with me that were in this altogether. So I think just trying to always be grateful for at least one thing, and I'm trying to be grateful for more than one thing a day, but just always, that's, I would say, is one of the things to keep myself staying better, whatnot.
Brock Ashby (00:57:00):
But I think that one thing is where it all starts from that one thing. It also unlocks other things because if you're like, well, I'm grateful for having a roof over my hand. Then you're like, well, I'm grateful for the clothes of my body too. And then I suppose I'm grateful, got a job. Some people don't have a job, and it continues to compound like
Nicholas (00:57:23):
That. Yeah, and I think that's another thing is always keeping myself or try to keep myself in check when I either come from a place of, what's the word, not ungratitude, something, I guess ratitude where maybe I see myself acting a certain way. I'm like, no, no, no. Let's reel it back. You're not this person. Maybe you're just hungry or whatnot. Maybe you haven't had caffeine or you haven't had sleep or whatnot, but just making sure that you remember where you came from or you remember how you were raised and things like that. Just humble yourself. Do things that Humble yourself.
Brock Ashby (00:58:02):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's what gratitude does. It just brings you back to square one where you're like, that's where we're saying at the start of the podcast. That's where I think it can come from to start someone's transformational journey. They'll be like, oh man. Sometimes it gives them, people always get started in the gym or they start being proactive about their health when they get a health scare. I know that when my dad has had a sit down with the doctor and he is like, look man, you got to start getting your shit sorted. Then he is like, okay, so then whether he admits it or not, or whether people that get a health scare, admit it or not, they have this gratitude like, I'm alive
Nicholas (00:58:46):
And
Brock Ashby (00:58:47):
I'm healthy. I can work out, so I better start doing it. That's where it comes from. That's where action comes from to actually make change. And I think identifying that's important and that's why I do the same thing. I wake up and I'm like, I read this out. I read that out. I'm grateful for this and that. And then the rest of the day is like, well, now I have all this. I suppose there's no excuse for me to go and do whatever I want because
Nicholas (00:59:10):
Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:59:10):
I've got everything I need, which a lot of people don't.
Nicholas (00:59:13):
Yeah. It's all a choice. You have to choose happiness, you have to choose positivity, and it's not always easy. And I think about sometimes what you just brought up. We brought it up a couple. We had a live the other day, or it was a Zoom meeting. Just when I wake up this early, it's like it's hard sometimes. It's hard to not push the snooze button, but you get up and then you're just moving and you just keep going in this momentum, and I've been practising that too, and it's working. It's like once you just get out of bed, you're on the go and
Brock Ashby (00:59:56):
It's
Nicholas (00:59:56):
That slow. Yeah, it's all good.
Brock Ashby (00:59:59):
That's absolutely true, man. Man. Well, I appreciate your time, brother, and thank you so much for sharing everything, for sharing what you're going through, the tips, the tricks, the stories. I appreciate it. It's an honour to be your coach, man, and it's been exciting to see even knowing more about you now from where you've come from to what you've achieved from just us being in partnership and working together to where you are now. I'm excited to see where you continue to go as well with the growth of your mindset as well, because stuff doesn't change instantly. It takes work and it's awesome to see you have that mindset to continue to work on it as well. So yeah, man, it's been awesome to have you and I'll
Nicholas (01:00:39):
See. Thanks for having me.
Brock Ashby (01:00:41):
No, man, it's awesome to have you on board, man, and I'll see you in the next coaching call for sure. Or in the Facebook call.
Nicholas (01:00:47):
Oh yeah. Alright.
Brock Ashby (01:00:49):
Alright brother. Well I'll talk to you soon, man. Awesome chat.
Nicholas (01:00:52):
Definitely. Have a good day.
Brock Ashby (01:00:53):
See you bro. You too. Bye. Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:01):
What's up guys and girls? Welcome to episode. I think this is episode number 13 of the Better with Brock podcast. I've got my client, I would call him a friend as well. We've been in each other's world for a while now. Well over a year, I think. Maybe even longer than two. I'm not sure.
Jordan (00:00:19):
Just about two, I think.
Brock Ashby (00:00:21):
Yeah, just about two. So Jordan's an awesome dude. He's achieved a crazy transformation. I've posted him a couple of times on Instagram. He's achieved an awesome, I guess you'd say, fat loss transformation. And I guess what we've been really working on together is building, because fat loss is quite, I think fat loss is easier than building, right? Losing fat is more simple than building because building takes a lot more patience and you end up even aesthetically looking worse and trying to be patient. Where in fat loss you can just go, okay, yeah, this week I'm looking leaner. I'm on lower calories. But it's very easy to visually see. So building's always a challenge. But yeah, Jordan and I have been working together for a while now. It's been awesome journey. We started off now smashing built by Brock, which is really cool to see the stuff that we learned together and you applying it with your own workouts and programmes without the accountability of me hounding you.
(00:01:28):
Like, Hey man, where's your photos? So yeah, that's great, man. So yeah, I really, we were talking about it before, I really just want to bring him on to, I guess make fitness less daunting. He's still living his life, working, doing his hobbies. He's big into self-development as well. Books, we talked about it quite a lot. And he's still being able to manage his fitness and actually in its fitness and achieve awesome goals. And often I think when people look at fitness, they're like, oh, that's too much. I'll have no social life, or I won't be able to see my friends. I won't be able to eat the foods I love. I won't be able to do this and that. But I guess what we're trying to do is, I guess with this conversation or what my goal is, is almost break down the barrier of entry to get into fitness. You don't need these prerequisites of you have to be this or that, or you have to give up this and that. You have to sacrifice this and that. It's literally starting where you're at and just making small improvements day to day, week to week, month to month, and just seeing where that takes you. So Jordan, man, I'd love you to introduce yourself and just give a bit of a background story, what you do, who you are, what you like, and then we'll go from there.
Jordan (00:02:43):
Yeah, for sure, man. Thanks so much for having me on, Brock. Yeah, like you said, we've been working together for almost two years now, which is crazy to think, man. But Brock was saying, my name is Jordan. I'm actually from California. I live in this smaller town in kind of central California. If I mentioned it, no one really know where
Brock Ashby (00:03:05):
It's at. No, I mention it. Mention it. It's
Jordan (00:03:07):
Called Turlock, California. Turlock. Turlock. Yeah, Turlock. But I'm originally from the Silicon Valley is as some would know it, the Bay Area, San Jose, California. Lived there most of my life. And then I moved out here. My parents actually moved out here, and I actually transferred to school, finished my bachelor's degree out here, and I've been out here ever since. So 10 years has flown by, which is crazy. Yeah, man. But yeah, man, a little bit about me. I started a new career this year, which is kind of crazy, but I've been loving it so far. I work in the insurance industry, I'm in insurance sales, but I never foresaw myself being in this type of industry, which is crazy. But I do love, and I think we've connected to about this a little bit is the more I have more of an entrepreneurial, I think, or at least I like to think entrepreneurial viewpoint towards a career and building something for the future is where I'm always looking at. So yeah, I was working in a corporate job, I guess you could say. I worked for a rental company called Hertz. Oh yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:04:33):
They're over here too. Yeah,
Jordan (00:04:35):
Yeah. I guess worldwide.
(00:04:38):
I'm saying it. It's only in America. They're all over the place. But yeah, I worked there for, well, actually since I got out of college, I was there for five years. I didn't feel like I was progressing where I wanted to be and I was kind of burnout and I was offered an opportunity to join the company I'm with now, and I'm in management with them now, which is cool. But my day-to-day is different every day, which is fun. I love that challenge, but it also brings new challenges to this ongoing fitness journey that we were talking about. I still,
Brock Ashby (00:05:14):
Yeah, so what are those challenges?
Jordan (00:05:16):
So the challenges is my schedule is not set and I'm on the go a lot. There's two days in the week that I'm in an office, so those are really more structured. But other than that, the other days I am out and running around meeting with clients usually in their homes and things like that. And so the challenges are really when it comes to nutrition, it's either I pre-planned my meals, which I'm not the greatest at.
Brock Ashby (00:05:47):
Join the club, man. Join the club.
Jordan (00:05:49):
Not the greatest at doing that. It would probably save me money, but I'm a single bachelor right now, so I can afford a little bit here and there. But the challenge is eating on the go, you know how like you got to find somewhere that you can eat something that's relatively within your budget, I guess. But what I love about what we do man, is that it's flexible. So I'm able to just kind of work whatever I'm eating that day into my budget and work around it.
Brock Ashby (00:06:25):
So say you're out, you got your day where you're out with your clients, you're meeting them and you're out and about because this really trips people up how to eat, and then it's like, oh, well there's nothing healthy around. So then they just cave and just get the pizza that they weren't going to get or So how do you stay on track when you're out and about and it's almost like, oh, I don't really know what these calories are. Is it high? Is it low? What should I get? How do you navigate around that?
Jordan (00:06:56):
So I think what's cool is now we are in a place where we have so much tools and resources to us. For instance, you and I are big advocates of MyFitnessPal man. I use that all the time. And what's great about it is that you can search foods and there's a lot of verified foods on there. They're fairly accurate, I would say they're not always a hundred percent, but within a margin of error,
Brock Ashby (00:07:26):
A guess is better than no guess. That's how I like to think about it.
Jordan (00:07:30):
So you can use that to kind of see where different restaurants and foods are going to be healthier or not. As far as how much calories are in that meal, I use that all the time. And I think it's just kind of trial and error, man. I've learned how to find places that I can get simple. I can get something like grilled chicken or chicken and rice or vegetables or something or salad or something like that on the go. That makes it a lot easier to eat within my macros that day. I don't go over budget.
Brock Ashby (00:08:08):
And something I do personally is if I'm out and I'm tracking and I know that I have to hit something and the menu's a bit, whatever, or there's grey areas, it's a lasagna and I haven't had, you don't know what the calories are in lasagna or I literally just go for what I think is an okay guess. So it'll say one piece and you're like, well, what's one piece? One piece to little kid is the size of your hand. But one piece to me when I'm starving is the size of my face. So I'll just go, okay, one piece, and let's say it's 30 grammes of carbs and 10 fat and 10 protein, whatever. I'll just go then, because then that's better than just having nothing. And once again, reading that unawareness of what you've consumed and then by the end of the day or the next meal, you're like, I don't know what I had. So then you just kind of go veering off course. But even if that one piece of lasagna is way off, at least mentally, you're still staying accountable to your fitness goal, which I think is much better in the biggest scheme of things than just giving up and saying, oh, I ate lasagna now I don't know what to do.
Jordan (00:09:16):
I think I was telling a friend about this actually earlier today actually. I was talking to 'em and they were asking me, you track your calories. And I was like, yeah, I think people think it's a daunting task, and it might be at the beginning, but I think once you get in the habit of it, it really is not, it's just a habit that you form anything else. It's building upon habits, little things build upon each other. And that's what I told her. I was like, look, if you're at home and you're cooking, you have much more control about the proportions and you can measure things and stuff, but you're out at a restaurant, you don't. So your best guess is probably better than no guess or nothing at all, as long as you're within that range at least.
Brock Ashby (00:10:00):
Yeah, and I think tracking is one of those things that you get better at over time. When I first started, and sorry, I'll add onto that, it's something you get better at over time, but it's also like you go through different phases. At the start, when I first started tracking, I was quite young. I had no idea what calories were, protein, carbs and all this kind of stuff. I didn't follow certain macros. I picked a random number out of the sky and said, that's how many calories I'm going to do. I didn't even use a calculator. I was just thought that was cool. Okay, we'll just do this number. So I just picked the random number, and I remember when I was young, I thought, okay, get shredded, whatever. And it was 1500, which was way too low for me. That's more calories for a small girl.
(00:10:39):
And I was like a six foot dude, and I was just like 1500 calories, whatever. And then I wasn't even focusing on protein or anything. I was trying to eat healthy foods that I knew of, and I wasn't the best at tracking. So what I did was I almost went to the other side of things where I was super extreme. I was like, I had a food scale everywhere at home. We went and bought one and my dad was like, what are you doing? I didn't do this stuff before. I was just trying it out. So I was weighing everything, weighing vegetables at night, weighing meat, and it almost looks obsessive. And I think that's where the whole tracking your calories is obsessive and it's bad for you and all that kind of stuff. And I think if you have disordered eating, maybe it's not the best thing for your mindset to be tracking every calorie because it does play with your mind sometimes.
(00:11:25):
But I think if you can handle it and you're just going through this kind of time where you're kind of obsessing, you kind of need to obsess over things sometimes just to get an understanding or not obsess, but just go to an extreme that you wouldn't really do long-term just to really understand it. So I was tracking everything. I've talked about it before. I've counted almonds. I was weighing my fruit, I was weighing the meat. I was really obsess me trying to get the exact number, 1500 calories. If I didn't, it was like a failure and I was getting really into it. But that was the first stage. And then after that, as you get into this obsessive thing, instead of counting my almonds, I would look at it and go, okay, that's probably 50 grammes or that's probably half a cup. Be a bit more flexible.
(00:12:11):
And that's probably the mid phase where you just almost, you're still tracking things, but it's like, oh, it's like a cup of this. It's not the exact 237 grammes of pumpkin that you would obsess about. That's kind of like the mid phase. And then I'd say the phase I'm in now is just like, well, when I'm tracking, I'm tracking sometimes. So I am still weighing food and stuff like that, but I'm not as obsessed about it. It has to be this and it has to be that, and I have this, I can almost eyeball things where it's like you have this better understanding of what foods are, so you don't have to, one thing that's daunting about calorie tracking is you think you're obsessing and it takes 20 minutes out of your day or even 30 minutes to do all this stuff. But as you get better and faster, you have different phases. And then tracking really will only take up three to five minutes a day. Everyone has three to five minutes. You just look at it and you can even save the foods that you use. If you always have this for breakfast or lunch, you can just save it and go bang. It's not that full on. It can start full on, which is where it's tricky. But once you get past that hurdle, it actually gets a lot easier. Have you found the same?
Jordan (00:13:20):
Yeah, exact same man. Honestly, what's crazy is, well, to be honest with you, I literally just bought a food scale. I haven't used one in a long time. I misplaced mine a long time ago. I just haven't used it in a while. So I kind of went through the same phase. I was measuring things, but I think you kind of have to get an accurate idea of what is an ounce of chicken. And so, oh, well that looks to be about four ounces. You can kind of tell just by eyeballing it after you've done this for a while, and that's when it becomes I think, a little bit easier to do it. But like you said, man, it's so much easier than people make it out to be. I think just because, I don't know, I've been doing it for a long time now, but really it takes me, I literally just in the habit of when I eat the meal, then I just pull out my phone, pump it, and I'm done within a minute. Especially if it's stuff that I eat on a regular basis. Because like you said, it'll save those commonly used foods in there. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:14:24):
It'll be on the recent food list
Jordan (00:14:27):
And it just takes literally 30 seconds for me to do it. And now I know pretty much when I'm eating most stuff that I eat a lot, I pretty much know what the calories are going to be and the macros, I just punch it in there so I can make sure that I'm tracking it for the day. But I already know most of the time.
Brock Ashby (00:14:46):
And I think that's where it becomes really handy. For example, when I was on honeymoon and when we were away, I was just eating whatever, and I really did not care. I was like, I'm not going to go to the honeymoon and try and track my food. I'm not an Olympic athlete. You go, I'm not a bodybuilder about to step on stage. Who am I? And I was like, I want to enjoy the food as well because you're at this nice restaurant this holiday, once in a lifetime, whatever, of course you're just going to enjoy yourself. So I was just eating whatever. But then also in the back of my mind, not in an obsessive way, but I was just like, okay, that's probably high in protein. I would get a whole plate of dessert. It was like buffet breakfast. And I was like, well, this is out of control.
(00:15:29):
I don't even know how many calories in this, but it's a lot. But it wasn't affecting me negatively. I was just aware. And that's all it is. It's like awareness. So you can understand that you're having heaps of calories if you're having heaps of calories, but at least you're aware of it. So if you want to act on it, try and counteract, okay, well then I probably won't watch TV and just lie around all day. I might go for a bike, I might go for a snorkel, which is stuff that we did just because really my wife and I enjoyed that, but we ate literally so much, two or three plates every meal, and we would usually just have one at home. So we were guessing, we were like, man, we probably ate three to 5,000 calories a day. And for her, for a girl, that's a pretty decent effort for me.
(00:16:14):
That's kind of like a normal day back home sometimes. But I was like, man, that's a good effort. But we calculated it. We only gained, well, not really over the top, but we only gained around one kg. Each was not that much for a honeymoon where we spent a week literally eating our face off, but we were also physically active instead of, so we saw everyone else contacting because when you're at the place, you got this 24 7 butler, so they would do whatever and whenever you wanted, but we didn't really have anything for them to do because they were calling them and saying, can you pick us up to go to dinner? So they'd pick you up in the golf buggy, drive you to dinner, drop you off back home, but it was like a five minute bike on the bicycle or a 10 minute bicycle if it was the other side of the island.
(00:17:02):
So we just cycled everywhere. And it's small things like that, that made a huge difference. And not that I was thinking, oh, I had 1500 calories for breakfast, so I need to cycle there. That's going to be about 200 calories. I wasn't doing that. But having the awareness kind of makes you like, okay, I probably should move a bit more. I have been consuming a tonne. It's that background knowledge that I think helps later on because tracking calories, we're doing it quite often, but as we get older or even certain periods of our life where we don't want to track, we may not even do it, but at least we have that background knowledge. So what do you do on the structured days at work? Like you said you're in the office two to three days. How does that differ from your days when you're running around? Do you do meal prep, do you things?
Jordan (00:17:47):
For sure. Days I'm in the office. For instance, tomorrow I'm in the office and I'm in there quite early. So usually I will do a little bit of meal prepping and I'm very basic with it. It's just me I'm cooking for, so I don't really care, man. I like food to taste good, but I'm easy to please. So I, whatever's going to be quick and easy to prepare, that's my jam
Brock Ashby (00:18:12):
To that brother,
Jordan (00:18:13):
Man. So days in the office, I try to bring in food. And so I'll usually meal prep, some chicken, salmon, some kind of protein, some rice with it, some broccoli or some kind of green because I just like to have something green on my plate and I'll throw some snacks in there. And the mornings, my breakfasts are pretty quick and simple just because I'm getting out of the house pretty early and I'm not a morning person, so whatever I can go grab in two minutes is
Brock Ashby (00:18:47):
My, your eyes were half open. Yeah,
Jordan (00:18:49):
Exactly. I rolled out of bed, I got dressed, I rocked downstairs, grabbed my stuff, and I'm out to, that's literally, I'm trying to get better at that.
Brock Ashby (00:18:57):
So what's a quick breakfast that you'll make or that you'll grab on the go? I literally just shared mine on Instagram, which I'll chat about after this, but what will you grab?
Jordan (00:19:07):
I love, so we have Costco over here, which I don't know if you guys have something similar over there, but we have Costco and I will get a bunch of stuff there for my meal preps. They have a lot of great stuff there that's made already or easy to make whatever. And they have these egg bites that, this is my jam recently, by the way. This is more a recent
Brock Ashby (00:19:32):
Thing. Egg bites. Egg
Jordan (00:19:33):
Bites, yeah. So it took 'em in, it's almost like an egg, how would you say it? Like an egg muffin or something like that. But they cook it in a certain way, sous V. So it's like a certain style. Anyways, they throw spinach and peppers and a little bit of cheese and egg whites in it. So it's actually relatively light as far as calories higher in protein. So in a package, it'll be about 20 grammes of protein for that. And then I'll also have just a quick protein shake or smoothie in the morning, something I can grab on the go usually. And coffee obviously.
Brock Ashby (00:20:15):
Oh, so you'll grab that whilst you're driving to work or you'll grab it from the fridge
Jordan (00:20:20):
Either. I usually have 'em in the fridge. I'll grab that stuff, warm it up real quick, and maybe I'll eat it here or maybe I'll eat it on the go. And typically I'll either make the protein shake here or sometimes I'll buy those little pre-made ones. They have those and I'll take it with me and then maybe drink that when I'm at the office. Most of the time it's just whatever I can get the most amount of protein in the morning and a shortest amount of time.
Brock Ashby (00:20:51):
Yeah, I think that's a big tip as well. Having a big hit of protein in the morning. I'm a big fan of that because for this main reason, when you are highend protein for breakfast, so number one, actually there's a few points, so lemme backtrack, but number one, if you have high protein in the morning, protein is the most satiating macronutrient, so it ties you over to lunch quite well. I find that I don't really have to snack if I have a, and I'm not a big snacker anyway, but if I have quite a big hit of protein in the morning, which I have done habitually for a while, I don't tend to eat anything before lunch. I'll just hold off until lunch because I'm pretty full. But also, if you hit your protein quite high in the morning, it saves you scrambling around later at nighttime when you've run out of carbs and fats and you've just have protein left.
(00:21:44):
Because the worst thing, and I've been in this situation a lot, I think is coming home and you have to have heaps of proteins. You have this chicken breast or whatever piece of salmon like you said, or a steak, whatever, and then you have no calories left, so you just have some spinach with it or some greens or something to end the day. That for me is the worst day possible. So what I like to do is really jack up protein for breakfast. I have a smoothie or I used to have yoghourt bowls quite a lot. And then for lunch I'll just usually have tuna and rice, real simple and a packet of frozen vegetables to make it colourful. And then later on for dinner, I only have to have 20 grammes of protein or 30 grammes of protein, which is a piece of meat or whatever.
(00:22:26):
And then I have heaps of carbs and fats left, so I try and kind of hold them off because carbs and fats for dinner is the best feeling. Last night I had pasta with melted cheese through it and cut up steak, and I was, I was just thinking and literally talking about it now, I was like, this is the best way to end the day with heavy carbs, not trying to hold off on cheese fad and all that kind of stuff. Just ending the meal with a real nice feeling of being full and being on the couch like, oh, this feels good.
Jordan (00:23:02):
That's something I learned from you honestly, is stacking up your protein earlier on in the day. And because I'm right there with you, man, I love good food. I love pasta and cheese and all that good stuff, man. And I also, I'm a big dessert guy. I have a huge sweet tooth and I don't know what it is, but I've always been this way, man. I eat something and I'm always craving something. Just
Brock Ashby (00:23:31):
It's a little, it's not finished yet. The fight's not finished. It's
Jordan (00:23:34):
Not done, dude, unless you can just,
Brock Ashby (00:23:36):
I cannot sleep.
Jordan (00:23:39):
It's not over. So I'm with you, man. It's nice to be able to bank your calories almost basically, and get your protein loaded in. And you're right, it's the worst thing for me. And it still happens less now than it used to, but it still happens where I'll get home and I'm like, dude, I got to get 80 to hundred of protein sleep.
Brock Ashby (00:24:04):
You're like eating this dry chicken verse. Yeah, it's not a good feeling. And
Jordan (00:24:08):
By the way, I have 20 carbs left and I have 10 grammes of fat. How is that going to work? And so that's the position that I don't want to be in. So yeah, it's really just being more methodical. What things can I do to get that in the way?
Brock Ashby (00:24:22):
And it's actually not a huge sacrifice because what I like to think is when you're having breakfast, you're pretty hungry anyway. You haven't eaten for however long you've slept. It could be six hours, could be eight, could be 10. So you're usually pretty hungry. So what I like to think is you use that hunger drive to almost eat the things that you're probably the least excited about, which is protein. If you had a chance of eating carbohydrates, fat or protein, if you are thinking health and fitness, you'll probably take protein. But if you're not thinking, I just want to, you'll think carbs or fats because it tastes better. So I like to use that hunger drive that you wake up with to eat high protein, because that's probably something you won't do when you're less hungry. So later on during the day when you are chilling and it's end of the day, you want to finish it with a nice thing, and it's nice to have your protein looked after and just have your carbs and fats.
(00:25:15):
So with your sweet tooth, how do you do that with fitness? I talk about ice cream a lot. That's my jam. I like to save some calories for that. For example, last night I had a bowl of ice cream and it was like the no sugar added Peter's one. I was trying to be better with it calorie wise, but then again, I had a huge active day, 20,000 steps. And I went to the gym too. So I got a big scoop of peanut butter with a spoon and just put it in my ice cream and I mixed it up, and then I put coconut flakes in it, so it was like vanilla ice cream with peanut butter and coconut flakes. And it was like I said, one of the best ways to end the day. So how do you have dessert or wrap up your days of eating?
Jordan (00:25:59):
Well, it's a dangerous game, Brock. Lemme tell you. It's a fine line. No, but honestly, okay, so first of all, let me just say when I first started seeing your stories where you're posting this freaking yoghourt bowl, but you have chocolate and protein or chocolate and peanut butter and honey and all this stuff in there, and I'm like, how does he manage to, it kind of blew my mind. And then you started talking about the ways that you're able to accomplish that and we're talking about now, and it just really kind rearranged the way I was thinking. I always thought, okay, if you really want to be lean and stay lean, you really got to these foods and it was like an all or nothing thing
Brock Ashby (00:26:47):
Most of the time. Yeah, sorry, quickly just to jump in there. Sometimes that is what it takes. I've been training for 14 years, so I'm always pretty clear on that. I have a lot of calories. I train a lot. I'm a tall dude. I weigh like 90 kilos, which I don't know how many pounds, maybe it's 200 pounds, I'm not sure. But yeah, I've been doing it for a while. So when I started out, I wasn't eating ice cream bowls and all that kind of stuff. It took a while to get there. But yeah, but carry on. Yeah, carry on, man.
Jordan (00:27:13):
No, no. And to your point, it's not like it's different for everybody and it all factors in, like you were saying, your level of activity, how many calories you can take in all day, that all has to factor in. But what kind of stuck in my mind was, okay, I can still have those foods as long as I'm banking it. And with my macros for that day, if I'm planning for it, if I save a little bit at the end, I know I have two or 300 calories left. But little tools that I use man is I just try to find, for me, I have a sweet tooth, so I'll try to find things that are substitutes that are still good, that maybe less calories. And nowadays it's seems like there's more and more things out there that you can get. There's ice cream bars that you can get at. Again, Costco, my favourite place, or different grocery stores where you can find them, sponsor us. This podcast has been sponsored.
Brock Ashby (00:28:10):
Bye Costco.
Jordan (00:28:12):
But for real, I'll find stuff. And honestly, bro, it's like I'm on TikTok and people are posting like, oh, I found these. And I'm like, whoa. So I'll get an ice cream bar or something that's like a hundred calories, 150 calories, and that satiates my sweet tooth without really killing my diet or my macros or it's just really about moderation. Honestly, some stuff I won't buy because I just know I have no,
Brock Ashby (00:28:43):
Oh, yeah, no, for real, I can't
Jordan (00:28:45):
Get Oreos, man. I'm no good with those, bro. I'll eat a whole sleeve of those man that's my fat kid just comes out and it's over. So there's certain things I just can't do, bro, but I love that I can still have ice cream or it's not going to kill my diet. And if you're looking at it from not just that day, but from that week or that month or whatever, you're looking at it overall perspective one day where you might have something like you're out with friends and you go out to dinner and they have dessert and stuff, and you have a little bit of dessert, it's not going to kill it. It's just weighing it into your, it's like all this stuff that I've learned from working with you is how to plan that into your lifestyle, into your week. Looking at it from a macro perspective, not the term macronutrients, but a macro, looking at it from a bigger perspective versus hyperfocused on just that what's in front of you. But if you want to know little things that I'd like to do, man, I love, I started doing yoghourt bowls. I never did that before. If I got yoghourt, it was like the fruit kind with loads of sugar in it.
Brock Ashby (00:30:00):
Yeah, same man. Yeah, well, that's what you start with. As a kid, I would take them
Jordan (00:30:04):
Coffee. It's yoghourt, man.
Brock Ashby (00:30:06):
Yeah, yeah. I used to think yoghourt was sweet. I remember growing up mom would put a little, so when we went shopping, we'd get the six pack and we'd break one off and take one to school. That was the fruity ones and stuff. You get strawberry ones and all that kind of stuff. You're not thinking about the protein, it just tastes good. Or I remember there was these ones, I think they were called yoga, it was like a gorilla on it, and there'd be chocolate or chocolate caramel and stuff. So as soon as I found out like, oh, yogurt's high in protein, it can actually be pretty good for you in terms of hitting protein and it tastes pretty good. That was a game changer
Jordan (00:30:47):
For sure. So getting the non-fat yoghourt and then you just throw stuff in there, you like a little bit of peanut butter, a little bit of Nutella, maybe your favourite protein or something, and just mix it in there. And that honestly was what, especially when I was cutting, cutting lowest calories, if I had any calories at the end of the day and I needed a little bit more protein or something, and that would be my before I go to bed snack thing. And that was what saved me a lot of times because it's still filling and it gives you that kind of sweet tooth.
Brock Ashby (00:31:18):
Yeah, I think that's where my yoga bowl started. It was like when I was cutting or when I was on lower calories trying to fit in something sweet, because it's quite hard when you're cutting. You can't just crack open a tub of bin and Jerry's and go to town. You have 200 calories to work with, so you're like, okay, I'll have some yoghourt and a bit of protein and some strawberries and some raspberries. It starts like that, but then when you have more calories later on and stuff like that, and especially for breakfast, I'd be like, yeah, just throw in all this kind of stuff in. I remember at Easter time I was like, man, I'm just going to put an Easter egg in my yoghourt bowl. So I was just like, bang, whatever, man. I was like, yeah, you can put anything in it.
(00:32:03):
And I think that's the beauty of flexible dieting. You can literally just have whatever you want and then it kind of depends. And then I could just deal with it later on because I had a whole Easter egg for breakfast. I probably had 1500 calories in that breakfast bowl, so I was like, oh, I'd probably just have a smaller lunch and then carry on as per normal or that's the beauty of it. It doesn't have to be super calculated, but a couple of things on what you touched on before the whole, your mind was blown when you thought you could have ice cream in your dieting or put things in your yoga bowl. That was a big switch for me too, because when I first started out on fitness, this was before I was a personal trainer or before anything, I was reading interviews on different websites and reading articles and all these fitness models and stuff.
(00:32:48):
They never talked about having ice cream and stuff like that. And if they did, it was a cheap meal. And that's like those two words together are just my worst nightmare. I hate it, man. I had a question on Instagram the other day, like, oh, what do you have on the weekend for cheap meals? And I was like, I sound like a broken record, but I'm like, you don't need to have a cheap meal. It can just be a normal meal that is high in calories and you just get over it. It's not a cheat meal. This whole cheat, as soon as you say cheat, it sounds bad. It's just the whole terminology is like you're doing bad things against your diet, but if you want to talk about it like that, then I have a cheat meal every day. You know what I mean? We have ice cream almost every night. That word is just detrimental. So knowing that, it really
Jordan (00:33:37):
Kills people's, their will when they think I can only have one meal and that's like a carrot on a stick, the
Brock Ashby (00:33:46):
Whole meal. And some people are like, oh, that is my motivation to stay healthy, to have that cheap meal. But then, which is fine if it works for some people, it's just not how I like to roll and how I like to coach my clients because it's really uneducated. It's just like, oh yeah, I'll just have a big cheat meal on Sunday. And it's like, well, if you're trying to lose fat and you've been good this whole five or six days or whatever, and then you just have this massive cheap meal and let's say it's 3000 calories, you just go to town, have burgers and pizza and drink alcohol, all that kind of stuff. If you do that and then you don't lose weight, it's like, well, then you think, well, why did that happen? Was it the cheap meal or was it because you didn't create a deficit, a great enough deficit during the week?
(00:34:30):
Was it because I didn't walk enough? Was it because you don't have enough knowledge of what's going on, but at least if you're tracking things or you're aware of it and eating the foods that you like, A, it's more sustainable, but B, you actually have the data to make change if you need to. But with a cheap meal, which often, like you said, it's really negative, and then they have it and then they feel really bad and then they just have a whole cheat day, that's when it's really out of control. And that's where I don't like that strategy because I think it's disempowering. It leaves you not knowing where at least with flexible dieting, you're completely aware of the decisions you're making.
Jordan (00:35:08):
Yeah, exactly. I think that's what really got me, honestly, that was really what got me interested in following you and you got my attention is because the things that you were saying, I wasn't hearing anywhere else or seeing anywhere else in the fitness industry, social media realm, if you will, because there's so much, I think we talked about this before, there's just so much stuff out there, bull crap out there. You have to sift through to figure out what's real
Brock Ashby (00:35:47):
Odd. Man,
Jordan (00:35:47):
It's hard, but what I love about what you do broman, is you just make it very practical, easy for people to understand that, hey, it's not that complicated. You don't have to do this specific guy's diet or Chris Hemsworth's Thor, what he did to be Thor or stuff
Brock Ashby (00:36:13):
Like that. Yeah, Wolverine or the rock. Yeah, it's hard, especially when you are new to the fitness thing. Say when you first discovered me and you're new, if I was just saying all this kind of stuff, you have to eat like this. You have to eat blueberries because if you don't, you're going to die. Or if you eat steak, it's going to explode in your liver. If you have no idea, you might go, whoa, this guy knows what he's talking about. He's got a six pack. He definitely knows what he's saying, and you have no education. That's the danger of social media at the moment. I saw this video the other day, and I won't even say his username because I don't want to bring any attention to his page, but he's saying, T is bullshit. T is killing you and saying all this stuff. And I was like, T, t, man, are you serious? Even so hysteria was like plants release damaging toxins when they're getting eaten because that's their defence mechanism. Even them you're not eating the leaves, you're having tea. It's mostly water and a small and tea mate. There's millions of people that are drinking tea. People from India, from Sri Lanka that have been consuming it for a while, their population seems very fine, and this
Jordan (00:37:36):
Houses of years maybe,
Brock Ashby (00:37:38):
Man, you see this guy who he has a six pack and he's talking very confidently. So you're watching, you go, whoa, this guy must know what he's talking about. And then he is cherry picking some research and saying, this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then if you have no idea, you could just be like, man, tea's bad for you. And it starts from there and then you tell your friends, stop drinking tea tea's bullshit. Watch this video, this guy, and then it just starts from there. So that's why it's my mission to just be like, yeah, like you said, try and make it really practical, make it really simple. But the thing is, so my theory is your best diet that you need to follow is actually not that far away from the diet that you're already following. It's very close. It might just be smaller portions.
(00:38:22):
It might just be an extra serving of fruit and vegetables. It might just be one less meal. There's these small changes that are very discreet that would make a massive impact in your life and your results and all that kind of stuff, because the diet that you follow and the diet that all my other clients follow, they're not crazy extreme. They're not like, you cannot eat this. You cannot eat sugar. If you eat sugar, it's going to turn to fat and you're going to get fat and then you're going to be terrible and all this kind of stuff. It's not like that, but it seems too simple and too practical that it's not going to be effective saying tea's bullshit. So it's very extreme like, whoa, we don't touch tea. I feel like I'm doing something drastic, so I'm going to get drastic results. But really in my opinion, it's the small things that make the huge changes.
Jordan (00:39:09):
So right man, for me, my fitness journey started, it's been a long process I feel like. And so I feel like maybe I'm more familiar with what is by now I'm more familiar with what is actually more accurate and realistic. But for people that don't know any better, all they do is they see people, these influencers saying the stuff and they trust it based upon, well, it must have worked for them. But I think what people don't understand, and I think what I learned the most from you is that it really is much simpler than we try to make it. At the end of the day, we think it has to be this big thing, this crazy diet that we go on or this drastic change. And like you were saying, it's really not. It's small changes to your life that add up to bigger results. Hundred percent. And I think that applies to so many other areas of your life, which is awesome. I think that it's bled into other areas of my life, not just fitness, and we can get into that at some point if you want, but I really have become almost like a disciple.
(00:40:29):
I'm preaching the gospel, spread
Brock Ashby (00:40:30):
The word man, spread the word convert everyone, man.
Jordan (00:40:35):
I'm trying man. A friend of mine recently started to really get serious about losing some weight and he's been lifting weights and stuff and he had moments when he was really into bodybuilding. He was really cut and stuff, so he's gone through, but I kind of really was just trying to tell him, it's really simple, man, honestly, you got to get into a calorie deficit and increase your activity. I was like, get a Fitbit. He's like, get a watch or something that tracks your steps. Yeah, there you go. He did to his credit. And I was like, just track how many steps you're getting in for 10 thousands more than he lost 30 something pounds over a shorter period of time. These principles that you apply, I think people try to make everything really complex and complicated that it's unachievable, it's really not. It's alright, figure out what it takes for you to, what's your maintenance at or what is your base level? Go from there, figure out what the deficit is going to be and then just get into that deficit and stay in it. I think what I loved about our training together was you applied that priority theory. If you're looking at just the nutrients, the macros, stay within your calories first and foremost, number one. Then two or one a I guess would be hitting your protein goal. We were trying to maintain, I was trying to maintain muscle or even build if I could while cutting, which is crazy hard.
(00:42:28):
And then the other ones after that, your fats and carbs and whatnot. But that made it a lot easier for me. I was like, oh, okay, well it's not this daunting task. It's okay, let me first focus on just staying with my calories. And then I started like, okay, let me hit my protein goal every day. Let me just focus on that. And then I really started dialling in the other one because it was easier because I figured the other steps first. These little steps that start to add together is what it is.
Brock Ashby (00:42:59):
And that's such a practical way of looking at it too, which I think appeals to people that don't look for the quick fix, but I think you have to get into that mentality first because a lot of people are looking for that quick fix, which is why people fall for the whole, all these people saying T's bullshit. And they go, okay, well then what is the solution? Oh, here it is, you have to buy it for 500 bucks. Oh, okay. And then they buy it and it's like, oh, well that quick fix didn't work. But once you develop this kind of like you're saying your perspectives changed around fitness, you kind of have a bit more understanding of what bullshit might be and what bullshit might not be, what actually makes sense. But that's such a practical way of looking at it. Your protein matters first.
(00:43:40):
It's called, I guess if you want to call it the hierarchy of importance, like what Jordan's referring to. And there's a video, I have educational video, but I'll just kind of run through it quickly where at the bottom of the pyramid, the thing that matters the most in terms of body composition or body transformation is the amount of calories that you consume calories in versus calories are, and this is where I really am, calories in versus calories out where if you burn more calories than you consume, then you're going to lose weight in a calorie deficit. If you consume more calories, then you burn, you're going to be in a calorie surplus, which is going to make you gain weight. And if they balance each other out, then you're at maintenance, you're at homeostasis. So that's the most important thing you have to focus on.
(00:44:22):
And once you understand that, then you can worry about other things that are less important, but still important, but lesser to how many calories you're consuming. So there's your fats, there's your carbs, and then as you keep going, you have things like meal timing, supplements, sleep, which are also important. But when you look at the bigger scheme of things, calories are the most thing because if you get great sleep and you take creatine and you take your pre-workout, so you're training really hard and you are having fish oil twice a day and all this kind of stuff, and you're taking the right supplements, you're sleeping well and you're training hard and you're trying to lose weight, but then you stuff it up by just eating too many calories. It doesn't matter how much you sleep, you can sleep 14 hours and you're still not going to lose weight.
(00:45:11):
And once you have this awareness, it's kind of like tracking calories where you develop that nutritional awareness. Once you have that educational foundation of this awareness that calories are the things that matter most, and then the other stuff on top, then it can really be actually empowering and like you said, give you confidence to actually lock down and focus on the things that matter because or else you're focusing on things that don't matter. For example, people looking for supplements and going, this is going to fix it. But then when you look at that pyramid, it's right at the top, which is one to 5%. That doesn't really matter, but people are spending all their energy, it's like their pyramid's flipped upside down and they're focusing on the right things and then they're screwed. They're just eating too much and taking these supplements and then supplements don't work and then fitness doesn't work, and then they end up giving up. That's why I wanted to have this important conversation with you to break down the barrier to entry of fitness. You don't have to know that much or be a special person that is always fit and always positive and fitness person. You don't have to, your goals and your mindset and your lifestyle that you need to live to achieve them are very close to what you're doing now. You just need to make small changes. So with your transformation journey, where did you start?
(00:46:31):
I guess what was the straw on the camel's back that's like, okay, I'm going to start training or I'm going to start eating a bit better. When did you decide that and what things did you first do? I'm sure you made a few mistakes on the way I did. And most people do when they're getting into fitness.
Jordan (00:46:47):
Yeah, so it's interesting you say that, man, because my journey so far ties directly to what you were just saying. When I was younger, I was a heavier kid. I was a chubby kid, if you will, which people see me now. They never believe me when I say that, but that's where it was. And then so believe it or not, I went to my checkup, whatever, and the doctor was like, yeah, you're obese. And I was like, what?
Brock Ashby (00:47:20):
And how old were you and how old were you at this time was 12. I
Jordan (00:47:23):
Was 12, man. Yeah, which was crazy. I kind of knew that until he said it to me. A doctor said it to me, I was like, oh, this is serious. So even at 12, 13 years old, my mom was just talking to me about this the other day and she was like, yeah, it was kind of crazy. You had this little food journal and you were really conscious of what you were eating. We went through a drive through, I'd order a hamburger, no cheese, no nothing on it like a diet Coke. I was just really conscious of what I was, and that's where it kind of started for me. But over the years, I kind of just was trying to figure it out. I tried different things and was just trying to figure out what works. For instance, when I was going to college, I worked at the campus gym there, so I would work out almost every day. I think for a time I was working out every day playing basketball three or four times a week. But I was never lean. I was probably slim down, but I was never lean. I was like that skinny fat kind of
Brock Ashby (00:48:37):
Right in between.
Jordan (00:48:39):
Yeah. And I was like, man, I'm doing two or three hours of cardio here. Why am I not six pack already? That's where my mind was at. The more cardio you do, the leaner you get, which is not wrong, but it's not a direct correlation necessarily. And so what I wasn't calculating was how much food I was eating or whatever, what kinds of foods I was eating and all that stuff at that time wasn't really on my radar. I was just focused on that exercise aspect of it. And I started working with a trainer there teaching me how to do,
Brock Ashby (00:49:17):
So this is at the college campus? Gym? The college,
Jordan (00:49:20):
Yeah. So he taught me a lot of good stuff about how to squat, how to deadlift, do all that stuff. But even he, at the time, you were saying the other day, I was a big no knees over toes guy.
Brock Ashby (00:49:33):
Yeah,
Jordan (00:49:35):
That was him too. He was the power lifter. And so it was like, he's like, bro, you don't need to do all this stuff. You just need to do dead
Brock Ashby (00:49:42):
Suspension. Just deadlift and just squat. Yeah, that's all you need. The big three.
Jordan (00:49:47):
He's like, bro, you don't need to do all that stuff. All those influencers, whatever, dude. And I was like, but I want to be cut. And he's like, no, no, no, you just need, bro, you'll get cut. You just do all this stuff. I was like, okay. I think what fast forwarding though a little bit, because I tried different bodybuilding.com, so-and-so's programme, and I
Brock Ashby (00:50:07):
Would, yeah. Oh, I did that tonnes, man. I was doing like Jeff, Jeff Seeds programme or Jeff side, however you want to say it, or
Jordan (00:50:14):
Steve Cook or whatever
Brock Ashby (00:50:15):
You lease seeds. Lizza Angelo. I was doing all of them, man. I was like, what are they doing? They look great.
Jordan (00:50:21):
And I'm trying to follow their meal programmes and stuff.
Brock Ashby (00:50:24):
It's so hard. Meals a day when you're in high school, it just doesn't work.
Jordan (00:50:30):
At college, I couldn't bring all these Tupperware,
Brock Ashby (00:50:35):
I've only got a backpack.
Jordan (00:50:38):
I was still in school working. I was also music minor at the time, business major, so I was still actually involved in music there. So I was not only doing my core studies, but I was practising for the music stuff, jazz and all that. It was just didn't have a lot of time for all that stuff. Coincidentally, I just would fall off the track.
Brock Ashby (00:51:03):
And that's also the thing with these fitness models that we would research, they do that full time, so they have a lot of time to say, cook the meals that they need to cook or carry them around and they're doing that full time. But you as a person studying, doing a major and doing a minor and trying to balance life and train and figure stuff out, it's just not practical.
Jordan (00:51:26):
It's not so fast forwarding to 2020, I think is when I found you on Instagram. I don't remember if it was pre Covid or right during Covid, but
Brock Ashby (00:51:43):
I remember, but I know that you trained with gym access, so it may have been before because you were training at the gym when we first started. I think
Jordan (00:51:53):
It was. Was yeah, been before. So at you weren't
Brock Ashby (00:51:55):
In lockdown. Yeah, maybe slightly before, but
Jordan (00:51:59):
I know that I found your page around that time and I was following you for a while. And then as with most people, I think what kind of the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, was just I went through a tough breakup during that time. And so finally I was just kind like what I'm doing, I was still working out all the time. I never stopped working out, but I wasn't seeing the results that I was looking for. And I probably looked decent, but I wasn't as lean as I wanted to be or anything like that. So I think that finally I was like, I need to do something. I need to change something. And I had watched your page for a while, so I trusted the information and I saw the results of the people that you worked with, and I kind of knew your approach to it.
(00:52:48):
And I was like, this guy knows what he's talking about, knows what he's doing. So I was like, lemme give this a try. So that's when I first kind of started working with you. And I think as you always ask, tell me a little bit about what your goal is, what you want, describe what you're looking for, and I don't even know if I was super specific. I think I might've given you a body fat percentage or something I was looking for, but I've never measured it. Yeah. Anyways, I knew I was somewhere in the team and I was like, let me shoot for 10%. And the first go around we did pretty good. And then I think maybe six months, a year later, it was my second time going one-on-one with you. And that's when I feel like I really was able to hit and achieve my best fitness so far. And I think that's when I really stuck with everything and committed to everything a hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (00:53:49):
Yeah, I was just going to say that I think definitely as your coach seeing you progress through those eight week coaching programmes your second time, you were definitely more compliant in terms of don't know what that was. Maybe it was your state of mind or maybe it was you just being around more fitness or being more aware of my theories and how I think and the strategies. But yeah, you really nailed it. You were on some pretty low calories that you have to have a lot of discipline with you definitely weren't having ice cream every night. You weren't doing the whole flexible, and that's where you have to be a bit more choosy about your calories. That's probably when you're having Greek yoghourt for dessert as opposed to Ben and Jerry's. But there's certain times that call for certain things. But your compliance level was really good, and I think that's what people misunderstand about getting the six pack or getting the dream body or supposedly what people say they want is it's actually really hard work. And that's one thing I'm never really shy to talk about is like, man, you need to really give it, especially when you haven't been there before, and it sounds pretty obvious, but you have to do things you haven't done to achieve something you haven't achieved
Jordan (00:55:02):
100%.
Brock Ashby (00:55:03):
You never really dieted down to 1600 calories before and who does? Some people will have that in one meal and be like, why am I not this physique that I want? You had a full on six pack, you were shredded, your arms are huge, you're doing really great lifts. You were getting, I remember your second eight weeks, in your first eight weeks, it still occurred, but it was very prominent in the second eight week programme you were doing getting stronger too. It's like you were getting stronger on 1600 calories. What? You were really pushing it. You were digging deep, you were really focused, you were diligent, you were hardworking, and that's what took you to that level that you achieved and that you could still achieve again if you put in that same work. But it's a different level of work to be super strong, 10% body fat.
(00:55:49):
You're working hard in the gym, you're working hard on your nutrition, you're trying to sleep as much as possible as well because you want to feel fresh and you want to perform your best and train as hard as you can, and you're also trying to get your steps in. There's all this kind of stuff that's going on topped off with your working you're doing. So as much as we're trying to bring down the barrier to entry to fitness to get started, it's very easy. But to get to an elite physique that you want to achieve is also very tricky. So it's like this balance to get started. Anyone can do it, I swear all you have to do is some small things, but as you progress and get more advanced and want to achieve these kind of bigger and more advanced goals, you have to put in that work level that's proportionate to those goals.
Jordan (00:56:37):
Absolutely. Yeah, man, it's spot on, man. What you're saying is, and you can remember probably at some point during that eight to 16 weeks that we were doing that, I was getting frustrated because I was like, man, I'm not progressing.
Brock Ashby (00:56:52):
Yeah, you're what? I didn't lose weight this week or you gained weight. It was like, I was like,
Jordan (00:56:58):
What's going on?
Brock Ashby (00:56:58):
Yeah, I've been sticking to it. And yeah, I remember having those talks like, man, you just got to ride it out. You're doing everything you need to do. And that's the benefit of, like you said, looking at it from a macro perspective, stepping out big picture. If you step back and look at say, four weeks of progress, you've still dropped a decent amount of weight, but maybe one week you didn't drop. But it's just about continually showing up, being consistent. But when you look at day to day or week to week where certain things don't work out the way that you want to work out, it can be super frustrating and that's where people give up. But having that macro perspective can be like, well, if we look at it in the grand scheme of things, it's not that bad.
Jordan (00:57:39):
Exactly. And I think for me it was like, okay, I don't know more towards advanced lifter at that point. So progressions were going to be incremental. And I didn't realise that until I got into it. I was I looking for this huge jump, but you kind of help me see, no man, you've been doing this long enough. It's going to be smaller and smaller changes over time. And I think that people have to understand that too, especially if they've been working out for a while or something as you go it, you're not going to see as big jumps as you did in the beginning where you lose a bunch of weight or you put on a bunch of muscle because it's kind of like your body is, it gets adjusted every level that you get to and you have to continually up the ante in one way or the other to get results and push really be committed to the process.
Brock Ashby (00:58:34):
But no matter how hard you push, sometimes it's still smaller increments. I've been lifting for 14 years. You've been lifting for at least a couple with me decently. I'm sure you trained well before me, but I guess having a structured programme and doing lifts and focusing on progressive overload. You've been training well for a while, but we still struggle to see huge jumps. I'm not adding 10 kg plates on each side every week when I'm squatting, I'm getting pumped up for a 1.25 kg plate. It's crazy how excited I get to put this small plate on my squats. I'm like, yes, for sure. They're really small increments. But on the grand scheme of things, the closer you get to the genetic potential of your physique, how strong you can be, how great you can look, and it just gets harder and harder and harder. And that can be motivating or it can be demotivating.
(00:59:26):
It really depends which is why to jump to another point, it's important to have these goals of being performance-based as opposed to just looking better all the time, like physique based or aesthetic base. Because if you just look at your aesthetics, sometimes they don't improve for six months because you're trying to build, so you look fatter in the mirror and you go far out, man, I just look fat or not fat, like, oh, where'd my six pack though? I don't have it anymore. And it's like, well, you have to think of that macro perspective again. You have to come back and go, well, when I choose to cut later on, my chest is going to be bigger. Or that's if you're just looking at aesthetics. But if you're looking at other things like a strong squat, I know you're doing weighted tricep dips now, how much weight can I do on the weighted tricep dips?
(01:00:12):
When you look at that stuff, it gets a bit more exciting for you personally. And it also keeps you in the game if you just look in the mirror all the time, and I think this is what a tonne of people do, and they start getting worse because they've finished their cut and they've reached this physique and then they're like, well, what do I do now? So they start eating more and then they're like, oh, well I've gained a kilo. And then they just scurry back into a calorie deficit like, oh, this is weird. I'm putting on weight or I'm not looking like I was when I was straighter and head of six pack, so I need to go back to there. And I think that's how people get stuck in this calorie deficit forever. There's so many people that just live in this calorie deficit poverty calorie world, and it's sad, man.
(01:00:53):
You don't want to have salads every meal for the rest of your life to be stuck on 1200 or 1500 or 1600 calories. And I think that's something that I'd love you to talk about and I won't keep you on too much longer. I know we're talking for a while, but yeah, no worries. You went from 1600 calories to achieve the lean physique that you did at the peak of our cut, and then you started climbing your calories were much higher. So how was that process for you? It's tough. When I first tried to do it coming off 1500 calories, I was talking about when I was younger and I was like 1500 calories is the number. I got really lean. I weighed super light and then I tried to increase my calorie slowly, but I would just end up bingeing and I would just end up going. I was like, stuff it. I'm either super calorie deficit guy or I'm like, stuff it, eat, whatever. How did you, I'm either this guy or I'm that guy, like a monster. So how did you manage to get the balance between, obviously you had a bit of my guidance sometimes, but how did you deal with going from 1600 calories, which is very low for you and very low for a dude in general. How did you go from there to higher calories and trying to get that mindset change as well?
Jordan (01:02:13):
Well, I think part of it, man is, and I'm still figuring it out. It's an ongoing process. It's an ongoing process. So to go back to when that period of time I was on 1600 calories, it was tough for sure. It was tough, but your body adjusts, your body eventually adjusts and eventually 1600 calories, you still don't feel like you're eating a tonne of food, but eventually it doesn't feel like you're necessarily starving either. Like your body adjusts to it. But like you said, it's not a place you want to stay in. It's a season. It's just a short time that you need to be in that to achieve your result. And so people understand understanding that the goal is to eventually come out of that and reach a maintenance phase. And I can't tell you how excited I was to get back to maintenance phase, man, and I think I did great with it for a while. Now, when I went to the holidays was easy to kind of, honestly, once I stopped paying closer attention to my calories, I probably started going over it a little bit again. And so now I've learned, okay, I can in general know where I'm at, but I should still probably track it even when I'm in maintenance because we give ourselves a lot of slack. I think, to be honest. We're like, oh, I didn't eat that much today. But when we go back and look at it,
Brock Ashby (01:03:43):
Human beings, human beings are the worst. We are really bad at guessing calories. If we leave it up to our eyes and what we think we are eating is way, way, way inaccurate. We are not good at that.
Jordan (01:04:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think part of it is finding the balance, man. Now, kind of what you're saying earlier, or we talked about this on our call recently about maybe your calories are this much, but to maintain your level of leanness, you have to increase your activity. For me, very sedentary kind of job. And so when I'm calculating my maintenance calories, I always put in sedentary. I don't put in active even though it can be kind of confusing because it's like, well, I go to the gym five, six times a week, I'm pretty active. But the way that you explain it and looking at your overall day and how much activity you have, if you put it in that perspective, well, my job, I'm sitting a lot, I'm driving somewhere, I'm sitting with appointments, I'm sitting at my desk. And so it's important that I understand that and I have to make up for that lack of activity in work.
(01:05:04):
And there's times when I really can't, I can't help it. If I have to sit with a client for an hour or two hours, I'm driving to an appointment, I'm sitting, what can I do? So something that helped me a lot was you like, well, think about the opportunities that you have to make up for it. For instance, if you're on the phone, go for a walk or when I'm at the office on lunch, what I started doing is going for a walk during my lunch. I'll eat my lunch and then go out and walk around my office and stuff. Doing things like that helps make up that activity massively and slowly increasing that can help you be able to eat a decent amount of calories, not feel like you're restrictive while you're in a maintenance, but still maintain the progress that you made.
Brock Ashby (01:05:52):
Yeah, I think that's a big mistake people make and I still am communicating this with the built by bbr team members and even one-to-one clients and talking about it on socials, just because you train a lot, that doesn't really mean you're that active. When you look at your whole day and you are working out for an hour, but you're sitting for, I don't know, 10 to 12 hours even more, when people get home, they sit down and watch tv. They're not really playing sport and all that kind of stuff.
(01:06:29):
You're pretty sedentary. But it's nice for you to think, oh, I'm very active because I'm training a lot and I'm not taking that away. If you're still training five to six times a week and your S entry good on you for training, keep doing that. But where you can get more bang for buck is yeah, your neat levels, you are walking, you are going for walks in the office, going for walks on phone calls. That's a big one, man. Now when I have to edit videos or take phone calls or do certain things, I go for a walk as well because I'm like, do I sit down and edit videos? Because even though I'm a personal trainer, being an online personal trainer is very different to being a face-to-face personal trainer. I was racking up, I remember, and this is no joke, at the point where I was transitioning out from face-to-face to online personal training, I would walk into the city from my old apartment, which took me about 45 minutes, but I was, people would seem walking, it looks like you're running, man.
(01:07:28):
I was powering in because like I was trying to get as much sleep as possible. I'd just get a coffee and leave while I'm half asleep. And I'd wake up literally while I was walking into the city to do work, and I would walk up a hill and do all the stuff. I would walk about 6,000 steps into the city and then with my clients, what I would do because, and for any personal trainers listening to this or even just people that train in general, I would walk in rest periods. So what I would do is we'd do our six reps of bench press, whatever, and then let's say they had 90 seconds rest between the chin-ups. We'd get up and I was always walking with other personal trainers in my gym. They would look very stationary. So I would get my client, I'd be like, good job, man, high five, whatever.
(01:08:15):
We would walk for a minute, come back, do the chin-ups, rest 30 seconds, whatever. There was 90 seconds. So we'd rest a little bit, do the chin-ups, high five, good job, man, keep walking back to the bench. Or sometimes I'd send them for a walk while I would change the weights. I'd say, good job, man. We're going to up the bench press five kilos each side. You go for a walk, go to the drinking fountain, get some water, come back. So they're getting steps in because they're doing what you are doing. They're sitting on their ass all day. They have a ary job, but it's not their fault. They're not lazy people. They're trying to pay the bills and feed their family. Man, I don't blame them. You can't just tell your boss, I'm not working from nine to 10, I'm going for a walk.
(01:08:54):
They're laughing. You can't do that. So I was trying to get them to move as much as possible. So if you're a trainer, I highly recommend that, first of all, it makes you stand out as a personal trainer because people go, what's that guy doing? Instead of them just sitting down and talking about the weekend, which is cool, but you can talk about the weekend and work with your client as well. But it also bumps up your physical activity as a personal trainer, but also your client that's most likely trying to lose fat and trying to be physically active. It hits both goals. I found that was such a lifesaver. So I would literally hit 10,000 steps at 7:00 AM and I was like, wow. And some big days I'll do 10 clients. So every session I'm walking and then I train, and then I'd walk back home. I remember getting 38,000 steps one day and I was just like, whoa, man. I was like, I need to eat a lot because else I'm going to lose weight. So when I was a personal trainer, my diet was not personal trainer. It looked like I was some morbidly obese dude or eating challenge Guinness World record breaking on my breaks. I'd go into Guzman Gomez. I think you have Guzman Gomez over there. It's like burritos and stuff. Do you have it or not?
Jordan (01:10:07):
No, I've never heard of that. But I also live in California, so we
Brock Ashby (01:10:10):
Have all kinds of, it's kind of like, what's that place that's really big? Chipotle? Yeah, Chipotle. Yeah, I had that in Chicago. Really good. So yeah, so that I would have two of the large burritos, sour cream cheese, the goods just for breakfast. Huge, bro. And I'd get fries and then I'd eat whatever I could in between my breaks, like burgers and stuff. And then I'd get, it sounds really bad, man, but if I didn't eat these calorically dense foods, I'd literally lose weight because 40,000 steps and training. That's crazy. Your activity levels. So I'll get home, I'd eat a whole tub of Ben and Jerry's, and I'll just be maintaining weight, but physical activity is such an underrated marker. So if you're sedentary all day, but you're training, you're active for an hour, but you're sitting on your ass and that's the education that really matters because it feels like you're physically active.
(01:11:01):
When you really exert yourself in a session, it feels like you're like, whoa. But yeah, so I guess I was just saying that because it's such a neat, levels are such an important thing. Going for walks really underrated things that once again, it's not extreme. You're not doing a hundred pushups every minute. You're not doing backflips, you're not sprinting up a hill with your shirt off or you're not doing these extreme things. You're just going for a walk when you can. People look at you just go, oh, he just goes for walks. But these small little habits that you are doing are paying off and helping you get to your physique or your content fitness level that you want to.
Jordan (01:11:45):
I think that unlocked a big piece of the puzzle for me and fitness in general. It's just like I always had this idea that, oh, if you want to be super lean all year round, you have to do more running or stuff like that. And I hate running
Brock Ashby (01:12:05):
Join the club. You know what? I think everyone who tells the truth in the world hates running. I think people that say they like running, they're just liars, man.
Jordan (01:12:13):
Yeah, exactly. They're just lying about it, man. Nobody loves that. But it's like, I mean nothing against it. I think if your goals are aligned with, you were saying performance aligned with running and stuff, which I've kind of been thinking about myself, but for me, the fact that I could increase my activity, I could lose weight without doing any running. I'm like mind blown. And so that really, really helped me. And honestly, it's something that I have really tried to tell everyone else that wants to know. I'm just like, honestly, I didn't do any cardio, so to speak, of during my cut. I just started walking. I never really did this before, but I would go, I live nice little neighborhood's, not bad. So I would just go for a walk, even if it was at night, I'd already been to the gym or whatever, get home, I'm like all, I still need to get my steps. So I would go for a nice hour long walk or something and get the rest of my steps in. And honestly, for me, it was a good time because that I could use that time to do something that was also productive, like listening to books, audio books, things like that, that are challenging me and educating me in other ways in addition to getting my exercise in. And it made the time go fast.
Brock Ashby (01:13:42):
Yeah, I think that's a thing to add into the reason why it's a great idea is listening to audiobooks. I do the same. If I have the time, I'll listen to audiobooks or another thing I will do is call my grandma. I'd call my dad, I'd call my brother that lives in New Zealand. I'd call my sister-in-Law. I'll just call people. I'll call my wife's family and see how they're doing. Because when you're working, you're busy and stuff. You don't have time to do that, so you're going for a walk. So you're getting physically active, but you don't just have to walk and focus. Like I am walking. We walk without thinking, so we don't need to, it's not like you're doing an intense run or anything. You can talk to people or even if you have the privilege walking with your wife or walking with your friend or catching up with someone. Or I remember if my friend was at the gym, sorry, my friend was at work, I'd walk his dog because we don't have a dog. So I'd be like, man, can I take your dog for a walk? He'd be like, yeah, so I'll take the dog for a walk. I love dogs. So it sounds pretty cheesy and pretty lame, but it's actually really fun doing that stuff, like going for a walk. And once again, it's not extreme. It's not sexy. Like, oh, he walks. Yeah, man, that's cool. Whatever
Jordan (01:14:57):
Works
Brock Ashby (01:14:57):
For you, man. Exactly, man. And as you're saying, spreading the message. That's what I do too. It's such a low barrier to entry. Once again, oh, you want to make progress with fat loss, go for a walk. And it's like, oh, okay, whatever. No one really takes you serious. But if I could point to anything that has helped my clients as much to get to their goals, like you're saying it's helped you, I would say it's walking. It's that stuff in between
Jordan (01:15:25):
Understanding meat levels. That was a huge key for
Brock Ashby (01:15:28):
Sure. And you're saying telling someone to get a Fitbit that keeps you accountable to it? I think that's a big driver as well. If you look at your watch, you're like, oh, I've only done 2000 steps and at 6:00 PM you're like, oh man, I better move. Because that's a reality for a lot of people. Just to, we could talk for ages. I want to start to wrap it up just because, yeah, or else we'll be here for three hours. It'll be like a Joe Rogan podcast.
Jordan (01:15:54):
Joe Rogan. Exactly.
Brock Ashby (01:15:59):
I like to ask my guests, well, I've started doing it recently, maybe the last three or four, but this podcast is the Better with Brock podcast. So it's about becoming better in any way. And we've talked about many reasons or many things I should say that can contribute to help you become better if you want to become healthier. For example, we've talked about walking, we've talked about flexible dieting, we've talked about your body transformation, what obstacles you faced to get to where you are now, but what's something you do? And this doesn't have to be related to fitness. What's something you do every day to help you become better?
Jordan (01:16:34):
Yeah, man, that's such a good question. I think there's several things that I do, and really it all comes down to, especially this year kind of clicks for me, it's just, I think if I could sum it up in one word, it's just intentional, being intentional. I think if we kind of let life, you can just kind of cruise through life through the week in your routines, but pushing yourself to do the things that are uncomfortable, that are going to help you grow is really where I'm at right now in my life, because I'm a single man. I'm just working. I don't have anybody depending on me. So now I'm like, now's the perfect time for me to get my stuff together, get all my, before I meet somebody or whatever happens down the road. But one thing I do intentionally is I've been trying to do instead of in the morning instead of first thing I do, getting on my phone or looking through social media or whatever, which is such an easy thing to do. You're waking up. It's so
Brock Ashby (01:17:44):
Easy. It's so easy. Like quick dopamine.
Jordan (01:17:47):
Yeah, I put on a book or I put on personally, I'm a Christian and I like to read the Bible, so I'll put it on audio bible version and I'll do that just to get, that's the first thing that I'm listening to. Or if I'm just drinking my coffee, I'll sit down and read a chapter or something in the morning and have my devotion time and stuff. And if I start that in the morning, that kind of sets my day off, right.
Brock Ashby (01:18:16):
Massively. I do. Just quickly on that, have you got any favourite verses or your favourite verse that you have of all time? I've got one that I have, but have you got one?
Jordan (01:18:25):
Ooh, that's
Brock Ashby (01:18:25):
That's a tricky one, man. You got a lot of options.
Jordan (01:18:29):
There's a lot of 'em, man. Hold on. I
Brock Ashby (01:18:31):
Actually, what's D one? What's D one or at the moment? That really gets me going?
Jordan (01:18:37):
I think it's crazy, man, because it always changes for me. Yeah, for
Brock Ashby (01:18:40):
Sure. That's why I was saying for now, because yeah, you go through things in life that require different guidance.
Jordan (01:18:49):
Yeah, I was going to say I favorited something recently. Let me see if I can find it. But I love anything in Proverbs, honestly. Yeah, I
Brock Ashby (01:19:00):
Dunno if I have a favourite verse.
Jordan (01:19:02):
Yeah, I think it's in Proverbs. Let's see, hold on. I'm not good at memorising stuff, but I'm going to look it up for you. No, you're alright.
Brock Ashby (01:19:11):
So while you find it, my ones Proverbs 10, four, and I keep this, I read this out every morning too lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth. And one thing I'll lead with is that's not just me trying to be rich, because often when people think wealth, it's money and it's true. I think when I first read it, I was like, because I'm a hardworking person, I really get drawn to the word diligence. That's probably, if one person said to describe me, I think you would say I'm diligent. That's one thing that I've always tried to practise, like I'm hardworking. So I guess it's because it favours my confirmation bias that hard work brings results, but it really helps me stay hardworking because it's like lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth. It's so black and white and you see it as you go through life.
(01:20:08):
And I was about to say as you get older, but I'm not that old, but I've seen a lot of people, I've trained a lot of people. I've met a lot of people and it stands true, like lazy people. And I'm not trying to talk down on lazy people, but I just mean people that maybe like you say, cruise and go through life and aren't intentional with what they want to do, it makes for poverty. And that doesn't mean that they're poor, but they're poor in the areas that they're lazy in. So for example, it's really easy to talk about work. If you're lazy at work, you're probably not going to be the CEO or the C CFO or a directing manager. You're probably not going to have much responsibility because you're lazy. So therefore, in terms of work, you're probably poorer than other people that are more hardworking.
(01:20:55):
But the diligent, and then it says, but diligent hands bring wealth. I like that because it's like diligence and then it has hands in it, which requires you relate hands to work. So it's like diligent hands bring wealth. So the more you're diligent with your actions and the more you do in your life, the more wealthy you will be in those areas. Once again, it doesn't just mean if you're hardworking, you're rich. It means you are in those areas. So if you spend a lot of time with your friends trying to help 'em through hard times or whatever, you'll probably have really strong relationships. So by far, that's probably my mission statement of life. What I stand by is that saying lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth, which is Proverbs 10, four, I'm pretty sure. What's your one? Did you manage to find it?
Jordan (01:21:44):
Yeah, I found it. It's also in Proverbs, but this one's a pretty common one. That's trust in the Lord with all your heart. Do not depend on your own understanding. And I think for me that just speaks to just basically we can try to figure everything out on our own, our own, but at the end of the day we don't have all the answers. And so it's really just about trying to continue to learn and to grow. I think for a lot of people, even if you're not religious or anything like that, even if you're not religious, if you read Proverbs alone, there's so many nuggets of wisdom in that book,
Brock Ashby (01:22:23):
Man. There's so many, so many
Jordan (01:22:25):
That you could apply directly to your life. And I try to read in addition to whatever I'm reading in general, whatever book I'm in at that time, I always try to read at least one chapter of proves because I just learned so much stuff. There's another one that kind of goes on with what you were saying, which is more practical, but wealth from get rich quick schemes quickly disappears, but wealth from hard work grows over time.
Brock Ashby (01:22:51):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And once again, that's not just wealth in the bank account. That's wealth in all areas.
Jordan (01:22:59):
Wealth and life, wealth in so many different areas. It's hard work.
Brock Ashby (01:23:03):
Yeah. I've got I think, how many is there on Proverbs? I could just quickly read them all out. There's so many, but mine are vary along the same lines of the first one because once again, that's what I gravitate towards for sure. But this is pretty much the same thing. The soul of the slugged craves and gets nothing while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied and all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty. So that one's more so in hard work or in adversity. There's profit. But if you just talk about things you're going to do but don't actually do it, not much is going to happen. This one is a big one. The power of the tongue is life and death. Those who love to talk will eat what it produces. And that was one that really caught myself up because sometimes you can catch yourself just talking about others and I still catch myself to this day.
(01:23:55):
I'm not perfect by any stretch, but that really helped me be careful with what I say and be really encouraging with people and be really cautious about what you say because they're like knives, man. You throw them and it may be positive or not mean to mean harm to people, but sometimes it does. So it's really important to be cautious about what you say. I've got a tonne more on there. But yeah, I often recommend Proverbs to people too, just for a place to start regardless of their religious outlook, because that's founded in life as well. That's founded in your experience and it's truth. I think it's universal truth. There's no other way to say it. Quick fixes get you rich. No, everyone knows that. So it's nice to see it and read it. I'm totally on that. So sorry to jump in on your stuff. So being in No, you're fine for you is important in the morning. So you read. Are there any other things you intentionally do?
Jordan (01:25:02):
Yeah, just the small things, man. I think we've been talking about kind of the theme of this podcast it seems, but make my bed in the morning.
Brock Ashby (01:25:10):
I'm big on that.
Jordan (01:25:12):
Yeah, yeah. Because it looks like it's a small thing, but if you build that habit and it also affects I think how our environment is and how we keep our environment affects our mental state and our mood and everything. I noticed when I'm really busy or I'm really lazy, whichever one you want to call it, I'm like the dishes start stacking up and stuff like that. My mood changes.
Brock Ashby (01:25:40):
It bleeds into your life.
Jordan (01:25:42):
So being diligent about just do it right now. Do the thing that you don't want to do but you know need to do, just get in there and do it.
Brock Ashby (01:25:52):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. Do it now. Do it now. Yeah. If you don't want to do it because you do it now, you don't have to do it later. That's the better thing. And that's the thing that once again bleeds into your life. For example, if you want to buy a house, it's like save now. Spend later. You have to think like that and it's the same thing. Do what you need to do now because it creates a better opportunity for later or quality of life or whatever. It's like delayed gratification. One quote that I love, which ties in everything that you're saying is how you do anything is how you do everything. And that's one thing, that's why I make my bed because I'm, now that I know that quote, I'm like, oh man, oh man, should I go do the dishes right now?
(01:26:35):
Should I do the washing? I want to be a person that does everything how I do anything. So I to, I think it helps you keep yourself to a high standard because it's easy to drop if you don't keep yourself accountable to that. And it's true when I'm tired or when I'm feeling lazy or not doing the dishes and they're stacking up, then I'm probably less diligent at work. I might cruise a little bit more. But if you're very intentional, I like that word about what you do in the morning, it helps you be intentional about what you're doing in your life. Small thing, making your bed can make you a more organised person. I'm sure if you looked at everyone who made their bed and people that just ran out of the house without making their bed, their life's going to be more chaotic just like their bed. It's a small thing, but I'm sure that would be the case. I don't know if there's a study on that, but it just makes sense.
Jordan (01:27:27):
It does. And I'm such a personality-wise man. I'm not an organised person, so I've really had to, it's a discipline almost. It's like I've had to teach myself that skill. It is. And especially in my profession, man, I really have to be organised to be successful because the little things like you were saying, add up in my profession, if I don't do the little things in the week, I slack off in those areas that I know I should be doing and then the next week is going to be affected by that. And then conversely the week after that, and if I don't turn it around, it's going to be a snowball effect. So I think it's the same thing. You can always say, I'll do that tomorrow, I'll do this. But I think it's really important that you really be conscious of your day and just plan out time for everything.
(01:28:18):
If you don't decide at the beginning of your day or ahead of time that you're going to do it, it won't get done. Hundred percent. Even just making time for things I want to do. I love what I do, but it's not necessarily my passion. I love music, so making time to do music is important. I put a time in the day, 30 minutes, let me sit down and work on this song or work on this even though it's something I want to do. I don't always find myself doing it because I didn't plan it out. I didn't make that decision before
Brock Ashby (01:28:55):
Or you weren't intentional about that time to come back to that word that you're using. And I think that's how things slip by. You're talking about in life for you. It's a time for you as a single bachelor dude to be intentional about what you want and work on yourself. Because when you have someone in your life, you just don't have the freedom of let's say eight o'clock till 10 o'clock at night where you just want, you have that time to do musical or you have that time to do your own thing because two become one, you're spending time on your relationship. So I'm all for you in that space. If you're intentional throughout your day, then you will allow time for music to occur or your hobbies to have time for that. But if you don't, you're going to be unintentional about your time and things just kind of cruise by.
(01:29:39):
Like you say, if you cruise in life, you don't get to do the things you want to do because things just jump on board. And I think that's one thing I've always tried to be really on is be intentional about where you're going. And I think sometimes I was a bit too intentional on the other side of things, really risking a lot. I was just going out on a whim, not much money, moving cities, moving countries and just really kind of backing myself. But it was like this super intentional, I know what I want to do, so I'm just going to do it. And whatever I had to do, I would just do. And that's what happens when you're intentional. You are going to be more, you have a higher chance of achieving what you want to achieve, that's for sure. Because or else people just put stuff on your plate. Can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? Or bro, can you do this? Or sometimes our natural human state is like, we just want to sleep in or we want to just chill and watch TV or just blob out. But if you're intentional, sometimes you've got to have the discipline to get up and do the things you need to do. Like you said, do the things you don't want to do. You have to do them, you got to do them now. Yeah,
Jordan (01:30:48):
And there's a time and place for those things, but I think too often if you don't push yourself to do the things that are uncomfortable, you won't grow. And it's because I'm thinking ahead and I'm thinking like, yeah, there's going to be a time when I don't, my time's not going to be my time anymore. And then whether it's I'm married or eventually if I have kids or whatever, I'm going to have to have these things figured out and locked in so that I can still do them and also have time for my family and stuff. So that's part of my thinking is long-term, I'm looking down the road, but you've got to break it down. What do I want to do a month from now? Okay, what do I need to do this week and what do I need to do today to reach that? These little
Brock Ashby (01:31:36):
Goals. Yeah, it's that whole reverse engineering concept. I'm doing the same. I think a big conversation that I've had with my clients and even on this podcast, one thing that separates me as a trainer is my prioritisation of education and the importance of that. For example, neat levels and focusing on things like that that's helped you. Flexible dieting, introducing these ideas to my clients. I want to be a very educated personal trainer. So I've implemented this the last two weeks. Every morning I wake up instead of doing what I usually do where I would do my emails and start posting, I've been studying for an hour. So even this morning, it's not the most exciting study, man, to be honest. I'm learning about the electron transport chain and how to programme for a metabolic stimulus, and I'm learning about the A TP cycle and what happens at the mitochondria, all this kind of stuff that you probably will never hear, but if I understand it, then I can give you a basic thing of, Hey man, if you have a lot of oxidative stress in your lifestyle, it's going to be hard to recover.
(01:32:40):
So let's try get some stress management tools in your life and here's a stress management tools video that I've made. I want to be that trainer. So reverse engineering, being intentional about my time. I'm doing that now. So that's an example I guess, of what I'm trying to do to be intentional about being one of the smartest personal trainers out there so that I can help my clients achieve things and have that low balance entry and kind of understand things in your own language. There's some concepts that require a bit of nerdism where you've got to speak the lingo, but sometimes it's just being really basic. For example, get 10,000 steps. If I say that to you, you understand what that means. But the science behind it is people that live in the blue zone are often more physically active. And blue zones are areas in the world that people live longer. So there's heaps of studies on there, but you don't need to know that. You just need to know to do 10,000 steps a day and just simple things like that. That's not rocket science, but other trainers aren't sometimes talking about that. They're talking about how many ounces of chicken breast they have and you dunno why you're doing it.
Jordan (01:33:47):
I think it's a key point there, man, is what you said is you're doing the things right now that's going to help improve your ability to help people as a trainer and set you apart. It's going to make you a better trainer, right? It's not going to make you worse trainer.
Brock Ashby (01:34:04):
A hundred percent. Yeah.
Jordan (01:34:06):
You're going to understand the theory and the reasoning, the why really on these concepts and be able,
Brock Ashby (01:34:14):
Yeah, and I don't want to be honest with you, I don't want to watch these videos.
Jordan (01:34:19):
No, for
Brock Ashby (01:34:20):
Sure. I want the result of them. But you have to go through the process and that's kind of the thing I'm doing the thing I don't want to do early in the morning because I just want to get it out of the way. And it sounds bad. I don't really care for my education. I do, but I don't find that stuff interesting, man. I'm a personal trainer. I like lifting weights. I like sport. I like talking to you. There's certain things I do that I like that I don't find this podcast hard. We've almost talked for two hours. This has not been hard at all. This is very easy. I find this easy, but what I struggle with is study. So I have to do that because if I don't, I'm never going to do that. I'm never going to, out of my own whim, go, man. I feel like learning about the A TP system and how that occurs and it's relation to A and pk, I'm, I don't want to do that, but you have to do the things that you don't want to do. You have to wake up and make your bed, man.
Jordan (01:35:10):
A hundred percent, man. I think it applies in so many areas of your life, man. If you're a musician, if your job is to be a musician, a lot of what you do you love, but there's parts of it that you have to do that you don't love. So you can be better at what you do. Understanding learning how to programme and produce and mix on software or reading books on songwriting or music theory and stuff. Understanding the mechanics of things and progressing and continuing to educate yourself. All those things can apply in so many different areas. So I think it's really important that, I like that you highlight that and talk about the not fun parts too. Oh yeah. Hey, there's stuff that I have to just grind out.
Brock Ashby (01:35:57):
Yeah, because what you have to do if you want to separate yourself, because as we're saying, it's not a natural thing to be drawn to hard work.
(01:36:09):
If you look at animals and animal kingdom, you see lions hanging out. They're just lying around. You don't see them practising their jump on hunting zebras or our natural state is just like to chill. But these days, if you want to succeed, I feel like in an area that you enjoy, there are things that you don't enjoy. For music. Learning the circle of fifths or learning the, I don't know, melodic, minor scale, doing stuff like that. I remember doing that at jazz school. I was like, this sucks for sure. I was like, I remember doing scales for hours. I was like, I hate scales, but you have to. I would do it for hours just so that when a song came and someone played a certain chord, I would know in context that I could refer to that scale and bust out a riff. And it is just like my studies, if I'm doing a q and a and someone asks me, Hey, Brock, by any chance would you know anything about a TP?
(01:37:05):
And I'll be like, oh wow, here we go. Bang, I'm armed. And I know what I'm talking about in that area. Man, we have to wrap this up because we'll be here for ages. I just want to thank you, bro. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. I think it's been super insightful just for me to know, even though I was your coach, to know what you've gone through. But I think super helpful for the listeners to understand how hard it is to transform your body, what it takes, but also how easy it can be, and also the mindset it takes to achieve certain things in the physical fitness world and how that can be applied to our life, which we've just talked about on that last question, what do you do to become better? We've probably riffed on it for about half an hour now. That's what I really love too. And I think people can really take a lot out of this podcast, man. So I appreciate your time, man.
Jordan (01:38:00):
Dude, thanks so much for having me on, man. And yeah, I love this stuff too, man. I love connecting over these types of things because I'm passionate about it like you are. And I could go on for hours, honestly, having a conversation like this, I think we both could, man. But it's so awesome, man. I really love it, man. And just being able to share a little bit about my journey, man, I love being, if it helps somebody, if somebody hears this and it helps them kind of get over what's hindering them from starting their journey or whatever the case may, case may, man, that would just be amazing. So thanks for having me on, man. It's awesome.
Brock Ashby (01:38:37):
You're welcome, man. Thanks for being a part of it. I think it could be something like you were saying, you were following me for a while and you saw transformation photos and you saw evidence of what can work and that help you took action. And I'm not saying that everyone listening to this is going to sign up to train with me, but I mean, it can help promote them to take action to whatever goals they want to take. And I think that's the main thing that I want to achieve from this podcast, man. So yeah, once again, I appreciate your input, your stories, your advice, your experience, and I'm sure I'll see you on one of the next built by Brock coaching calls. We're going into week six this week. So yeah, three weeks left of the challenge. Keep crushing it brother. And yeah, we'll be chatting very soon. I appreciate your time, man. We'll talk soon.
Jordan (01:39:23):
Bye man. For sure.
Brock Ashby (01:39:25):
Thanks bro, appreciate it. Catch you. Alright, man.
Jordan (01:39:28):
See you later.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up guys and girls? Welcome to episode number 12 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm with my client actually, that we've been together for a long time. Regner Ramos. Is that Ramos or Ramos? How do you say that's true? Okay.
Regner (00:00:15):
Ramos. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:00:16):
Okay, got it Right. And ultimately man, he's managed an amazing body transformation. He's dropped a significant amount of weight. He looks completely different. I would say his behaviours and lifestyle is completely different and from anywhere, from nutrition to the amounts he moves to the amount he trains. And I really just wanted to get him on to talk about what he's been through because he's one of the rare cases where he succeeded. A lot of people want to drop a significant amount of weight when they're in that position to do so, to become healthier, but he has succeeded. So I really just want to get his insight on what he's been through. So Rena, give us a little insight about yourself, who you are, what you do, and I guess how you came to decide to make a change.
Regner (00:01:15):
Yeah. Well I am a university professor. I teach architecture courses and I'm a researcher and designer based in Puerto Rico in the Caribbean. So a lot of my life is quite passive. There's a lot of my daily life where I'm just sitting at a desk where I'm drawing, where I'm meeting, where I'm teaching my courses, some of them are four hours long, so especially during the pandemic where you're in front of a computer all day long and the gyms were closed, I think my weight just got really out of control, but I've always been chubby. I was always the fat kid at school and I've always struggled with my weight. So I had done diets, especially low carb diets because I felt like that was the fastest thing that worked, but it's just really unsustainable. So during the pandemic I broke up and all hell broke loose and I was eating everything and anything and there was no gym open anyway, so I tried doing workouts at home and I found them super boring. I honestly really also going to the gym because I like seeing people and I kind of feed off of the energy on the gym floor. And I also kind of like people watching me. So I think that also kind of gives me extra
Brock Ashby (00:02:35):
An environment or a little bit of pressure to be like, Hey, people are watching. Yeah, I understand that.
Regner (00:02:41):
I just find home workout, it wasn't working for me. So when I tell people it was the Instagram gods that sent me your page, you just showed up randomly on the explore page for some reason. And I started looking through the caption that you wrote and it was so well written. And because I'm a university professor, I pay attention to these things and it was like, there's no typo. This guy really makes sense. So I started following the content first to see, because I was kind of thinking about a trainer, but I've always found trainers to be quite intimidating. I don't like people telling me what to do, and I tell people, the only person I like telling me what to do is Brock like nobody else.
Brock Ashby (00:03:26):
So why me though? What makes me different to the other fitness influencers that you hate hearing from?
Regner (00:03:30):
I think that you're just not intimidating. I think that there is, especially as a gay person, there's a softness about you. There's a gentility about you that's not this super aggressive. You have to lose weight, you have to look like this. It was just kind of like a softer approach to fitness, which I found it resonated with me. So I studied you for a while, like a true researcher would, and I thought if I'm going to do this, I need to know what I'm going to get myself into. It's not going to be easy and I don't want to set myself up for failure. It's not something that I want to start and then not finish and I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. So I followed you for a while and just saw how you worked and what kind of things you were teaching, and I found it to be really accessible. And I said, okay, so at some point I need to message this guy and say, okay, I'm ready to do this. And it was just kind of like, today's the day I think I messaged you and I wanted to see what equipment I needed. All you said was if you have gym access, all you need is a weight to weigh your food and a weight to weigh yourself on mornings every day. And that's how it started.
Brock Ashby (00:04:49):
So what do you think was the defining point that made you ask for my advice? Because I don't know, maybe it was just an accumulation of all the thoughts or maybe there was an event or I'm not sure.
Regner (00:05:04):
I see, especially on TikTok, I see a lot of people posting before and afters and a lot of the people who lose a significant amount of weight, their befores are them crying and saying, I was really unhappy. But for me, honestly, I was happy even when I was significantly overweight. And I think the deciding factor was that everything was going pretty well for me in terms of career in my personal life, and I felt that I physically wasn't looking as good as I felt on the inside. So it wasn't like I was crying and sad about what I looked like and who I was. I thought I was still attractive in my own way. I was still going out on dates, but it was just kind of like, if I'm successful at work, if I'm killing it and all these other things, why do I see fitness as something that's so unattainable?
(00:05:55):
I've always liked to go work out, I've always gone to the gym, but I used to do it to relieve stress and I would see people go to the gym and then see results and lose weight. And I was thinking to myself, why is everybody else losing weight? I'm still going to the gym just as much. My body not changing. Why am I not losing any weight and why have I kind of pushed that to the back of my mind where I'm not going to the gym to see results, I'm just going to the gym because I have fun with it. So I was like, well, clearly I need somebody to tell me how to do this to train me. And that's why I decided, okay, I need to train her. I can't do this by myself,
Brock Ashby (00:06:35):
But that's a great place to start. Just training to relieve stress. There's worse things you can do to relieve stress. There's a lot of people that have stressful lives that instead of going to the gym, they go out and they go into the bathroom and do whatever they need to do and come back out and that's their stress relief and it's just bandaid, bandaid, bandaid, and for you to reach into the gym and go there, that's a great start. But yeah, there's a lot of people that do that that don't get results. And as a personal trainer, that kind of baffled me a bit. When I first started in gyms as a personal trainer, very early on I thought that people go to the gym, this is me, naive being really young. People go to the gym, they just all get results. And I would help some people do that that are probably more dedicated as a personal trainer, but everyone should be getting results.
(00:07:24):
But the amount of people that are regulars that are doing the same things over and over again looking the same, just plateauing. I'm like, you want to get a return on all this time? You're spending five to 10 hours in the gym per week. You're there for an hour and a half in the morning every day, these regulars. And I was like, man, you guys are just looking the same. And I don't know their goals, maybe it's just to stay the same and to not die and to be healthy and to not be so overweight. They can still do this and that, but I'm sure there's something inside of everyone that wants to see progress
Regner (00:08:00):
Of course.
Brock Ashby (00:08:01):
And I think that's where I can help certain people. But yeah, that next step is what's crucial. So what do you think was the defining part of you actually making progress with me because you finally got the courage to work with me. What was the switch? What was different to what you were doing on your own to when we worked together?
Regner (00:08:21):
Yeah, I think one of the reasons why even now that we've been together for such a long time, and I still like the one-on-one thing is because I like that you design a programme that's just for me and for my personal goals and considering also my, because how I busted my back at the beginning of the process and that's kind of still been healing and I still go to the chiropractor. So I like that I have someone who's designing something for me and it feels very bespoke and just for me and it feels like a game plan. It's my strategy. It's not the fix for
Brock Ashby (00:08:59):
All the general
Regner (00:09:00):
Training, which is what I was doing when I was not training with you. One of my friends gave me his routine and I was just kind of going through his routine every single time. And then because you don't have the discipline, sometimes the equipment wouldn't be available and I just would skip that one and I would do something else. So it wasn't, I liked this idea of training the same routine once a week for four weeks and then shifting. So instead of doing the same thing over and over again, which also gets quite boring. This method where things change every four weeks and the calories change. To me, it's almost like a game. So it makes it more entertaining as well. It's not like I'm just going through the motions. It's the same thing over and over again. It always feels like I'm pushing myself and progressive overloads, and so it just feels like I'm challenging myself, whereas before I was just repeating.
Brock Ashby (00:10:00):
Yeah, that's the difference between, I guess following a random routine that your friend gives you or there's also the other thing. So there's doing the same thing over and over again, which gets stale and stops working after a while, but then there's the people that will just do something different every day. Yeah, it's like a lucky dip. It's like, oh, what do I do today? Oh, today I'm doing bench press. And then, oh, the next day, oh, I'm doing squats, and then, oh, I'm doing bench press again the next day. I just dunno what else to do. And that's just as bad. I like to say random workouts, get random results and then you could probably say the same workouts will get you the same results. It's that balance of giving yourself something that you can do and get better at and progress within, but then flip it on its head to get a different stimulus to continue to make progress. And that's why I would often people would say, oh, can I do your programme?
(00:10:59):
Earlier on Instagram, I was posting a lot more workouts and I was like, this is what I'm doing. People say like, oh, I want to do that. Can you send me a programme? And I was like, it doesn't work like that. You don't train as much as I do, or you train more than I do, or you don't respond as well to these sort of exercises or heavier weights that I respond to. And then it just doesn't work like that fitness. There are general programmes that can work, but that's why I'm so pro-education because if you have a general thing, obviously it can still work like say one of my programmes built by Brock, but there's education that can give you context behind when things don't really suit for you. For example, when exercises aren't free, I understand that now you have a bit of a better understanding that you could replace an exercise or you could potentially come back later to it. Or there's
Regner (00:11:52):
One of the best things about working with you and knowing what the game plan is, is that I feel much more confident going to do things that normally I would be kind of intimidated to do or scared to do. I would avoid the free weight section altogether. I wouldn't touch a Smith machine. I wouldn't do really barbells either, so I would stay in other stations, but knowing what I needed to do and exactly how many of those to do and how much to rest in between you. Also, you waste so much time in between sets and reps. If you're not,
Brock Ashby (00:12:29):
There's no plan
Regner (00:12:31):
And it's been six, eight minutes and you see people scrolling and scrolling and texting and it's like, that was me as well. So having a game plan makes me feel much more confident because I don't feel like I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I feel like I have the necessary very references, especially when you're starting out and you've got all these videos, which are so helpful to see what you need to do.
Brock Ashby (00:12:56):
Yeah, I think that's one thing that people underestimate to give them confidence in the gym. A lot of people, a lot of people, I would almost say the majority of people that are in the gym almost lack confidence or lack the certainty that what they're doing is I get a tonne of messages and even emails from clients, I'm not sure what I'm doing and I think I might go try the squat rack, but I'm intimidated because I think everyone's looking at me or maybe some buff dude is going to want to use it, so I'm going to step back and it sounds like I'm just trying to preach for personal trainers or trying to sell my programmes when I say it, which I'm not. I'm just trying to say, if you have a game plan, you can go, I belong in this squat rack because this is what I need to do. It becomes a bit less emotional and a bit less scary because it's just like you have to do that thing. And it's like anything, if you want to successfully build something, you have to have a plan. I guess as you study design buildings or whatever you're trying to create, there has to be a game plan. You can't just come in and be like, alright, I'm just going to do this and just see how I feel and do this. If you have no confidence in a plan, then there's going to be no execution.
Regner (00:14:09):
For me, one of the most intimidating things to start were pull-ups, even assisted with the bench. I was so scared because I feel like it's a very visible exercise to do and if you fuck up, people will be looking at you. But really I think that nobody's really paying attention to, man. It's true. I'm just thinking about am I breathing right, is the form correct? Am I counting the seconds in between? So I'm really in my head and I feel like it's the best thing because I'm not focused on work, I'm not focused on problems. I'm just inside my body and it feels really cool.
Brock Ashby (00:14:48):
So what were you doing with your training before you started following my programme? You said that you were staying away from three weeks. What would a session look like for you?
Regner (00:14:58):
A typical session would be to do maybe crunch machines. I would do shoulder press, but on a machine. So anything that I could sit down that I didn't have to lift a dumbbell or go to that area with the mirrors, that was the most intermediate thing. We also start the sessions with cardio, so I wouldn't have as much energy when I was doing weights. I also was just winging in, do I do eight reps? Do I do 10? Do I do 12? It's really hard also to keep track of if you're doing random things, it's really hard to know how you're progressing. So if I did chest press on Monday and it's Wednesday and I don't do it again, I might not do it again until next week. And I don't remember really what I would, how much I was bench pressing that day. So it just becomes really random and you lose track of what I can physically do.
(00:15:51):
And one of the things that your programme helps me to do, especially with this one that you designed, every set is supposed to get heavier and heavier is to push how much I think I can actually do. Also knowing what my limitations are, but sometimes I'm like, oh, actually I could do five pounds more, which surprises me, and now next time I know that that's where I can start. So instead of just avoiding equipment altogether, it's just much, I feel much more confident instead of just having to stay where everybody else is staying, sitting down and waiting around for the equipment to become available.
Brock Ashby (00:16:31):
And as a researcher, it just makes sense. You have data to pull from and understand that the trend needs to be heading in a heavier direction every set or every week. And I think that's where people that are doing random exercises, random workouts or random sets in reps, should we do 20, I'll do 25 now and then maybe I'll do eight after this. There's no data, there's no trend. It's all just like a shotgun shooting everywhere. I'm just hoping it hits something. I'll
Regner (00:17:03):
Rest two minutes in between or i'll rest five minutes in between. So it becomes really random
Brock Ashby (00:17:09):
And it's hard to know if you're progressing. So back to I guess your progress. We've kind of talked about the way your changing changed, but how did your nutrition change? Because I know that this is a bit of a game changer for you.
Regner (00:17:25):
No, for sure. I think that the thing that I identified at the beginning was that I had a really unhealthy relationship with food and I was losing control and I'm a control freak,
Brock Ashby (00:17:38):
Which is what you want in a designer, by the way.
Regner (00:17:42):
So I just felt like I had control over so many things in my life, but at the moment when I was sitting down to have dinner or lunch, I was just having BK five times a week. And it was just a total lack of control that when I finished eating, I felt guilty every single time. And I just thought, this is bss. I can't live like this because I don't want to feel guilty every single time I eat something. So my relationship with food has completely changed. I still think that I'm prone to those behaviours because it was so many years of that being the norm that I still, even when I'm at 2000 calories a day, I'm still very mindful, don't slip, don't go back into that, eat anything and everything. Still count everything. I think the only thing that I don't count is if I use ketchup on french fries, but at the beginning I was so obsessive that I would even count my bubble gum, how many calories?
Brock Ashby (00:18:41):
I was there too. Yeah, I was there too. I was like five calories in this, I'm not even eating it.
Regner (00:18:48):
So I think that understanding and seeing food as nutrition and actually your body needing to get certain sources out of it to change and to be healthy is one of the biggest things. Because like I said, I was going to the gym three times a week normally doing random things, but I was still doing random things. I was doing cardio, but then I was eating the world when I got home for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So I wasn't seeing any progress because my relationship with food sucked. I can't even imagine how many calories I was eating per day.
Brock Ashby (00:19:21):
And that's the crazy thing when you don't track it, it's so crazy how oblivious you are to actually what you're consuming. And I'm not trying to demonise not tracking calories and saying that everyone needs to track calories. I believe there's a time and place for it, and there's a certain group of people that really thrive on it, and there's a certain group of people that probably wouldn't benefit from it as much as we do, but it's crazy. People are like, oh, I'm probably consuming around 2000 calories. And then you see what they're eating. I'm like, man, you need to double that at least. Especially to take your food, for example, if you're having BK five times a week, not that you can't do that, but the calories add up, especially when you become aware of what you're consuming. But where do you think your, I guess, relationship or lack of relationship with food came from? Where did that guilt originate from?
Regner (00:20:15):
Well, I think just to say to contextualise a little bit, Puerto Rican food is very, very heavy. When people come to Puerto Rico, like tourists come to Puerto Rico, they think that they're going to be served. It's a topical island, so they think that they're going to be served fruit bowls and refreshing drinks, but everything is deep fried here. So it's
(00:20:37):
Fried pan, deep fried pork, fried chicken, fried pork chops, so it's very carb heavy. It's rice and beans. So our diet is very caloric and very fatty as well. So this is what we're taught even as kids, this is what you eat every single day and when you're not aware of how much calories, and I think if you're prone to my body type, I gain weight really quickly. If you're not aware of these things, it's really easy to lose control. But then also with work, I don't really like to cook to begin with. I don't really have that much time. So it's much easier to, on my way from work, pick up something at bk, which is next to my apartment. So it's about convenience and it's something that really had to change if I wanted to see the results that I wanted to see.
(00:21:33):
And I think that's one of the reasons why I was researching you at the beginning because I knew that my relationship with food was going to change. I thought it was going to be much more restrictive. I think that the flexible dieting approach is a godsend because it's not like I tell people I can eat anything I want when I go home for the weekends. My mom is like, what can't you eat? And I'm like, I can eat everything, but if I eat this for lunch, I'm not going to be able to eat that for dinner. So it's more like I see it more like a budget and tracking that is indispensable. So it was a combination of my upbringing and what we eat in this island and the time I have and what I enjoy. I don't like cooking. I've had to invest time now to do it, and it's much easier because I know now exactly how many calories are in the things that I'm eating. But yeah, it does make you the least favourite person to ask to dinner. My friends are like, how many calories are you on now? Because they invite me to dinner. But yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:22:41):
So what's changed from your day-to-day? Like as you said, you'd kind of get BK on the way home. I assume your lifestyle's pretty similar in terms of your work and being busy because that's usually a constant in our life, but what's changed? Have you been meal prepping? You said you've been cooking a bit more. Have you been, instead of getting bk, picking up something else?
Regner (00:23:02):
I found a happy medium. So I've just discovered that roasted chicken, like rotisserie chicken is super healthy and I can order that if I don't want to cook and have that delivered, so I don't have to cook the meat itself, but I'll make a wrap and I'll add the spinach. So I've just had to man up and invest time in meal preparation and in cooking. But if I don't want to cook and I can order something, I'll choose the healthy option. I don't go to BK directly and I won't order a whole pizza and eat the whole pizza.
Brock Ashby (00:23:41):
And I think that's the thing that we need to understand with people just trying to make a transformation is you can't just expect to live the same and get the same results. People are often like, oh, fitness isn't for me. I don't want to change my life. But I'm like, well, in anything in life, their demands are change. You have to, if you want to earn more money, you probably have to study and increase your knowledge or you have to work a bit harder. You have to sacrifice some time. You have to sacrifice, I don't know, sitting around and watching a show on Netflix for doing an hour of courses to upskill you so you can get a promotional, you can do a side hustle or whatever. There has to be a change for anything. Even if you want to start seeing someone or get into a relationship or do whatever you want with someone else and you're single, you can't do single things. Just sit at home and eat ice cream and whatever. You have to try, go on dates or try engage with people, try talk to people. There has to be a change. And I think it's so unfair for people to be like, oh, I want to get these results, but they're not willing to give something else up. There has to be a trade-off. Yeah.
Regner (00:24:51):
There's also, for me, I think I, when we started, and you ask in the questions that you ask us, what are your goals and why you need me, I think that one of the things I said was, ideally, I want to have a rugby type of body. I never thought that I could have, and I don't have the most, I mean, there is a drastic transformation, but it's not like I'm done very drastic, don't have work to do. So I never thought that I could get to where I am now. I always thought that this would take so much time and so much effort, and it was unachievable for me. So when I saw the first two, six packs, I was like, what? How is that even possible? It's not this thing that I thought was impossible to get. It's not like I am devoted all my life to fitness, but it has required that I make, for example, one of the things was I don't put off the gym.
(00:25:51):
So I schedule my gym sessions almost like, it's like I'm going to church, I need to do this. I don't take any meetings on Thursday afternoons, and I don't take any meetings on Mondays between one to four because otherwise it becomes really easy to displace the gym. So I've had to switch the mentality where it's like, if you want to see the results and if you want to do this right, there can be no excuses. This is the amount of times that you have to go to the gym and you can't change the gym because I know that for me it was easy to say, oh, I'll just go some other day. But then the end of the week is there and you've lost
Brock Ashby (00:26:26):
The other day doesn't come.
Regner (00:26:28):
Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:26:31):
It it's trade off. You have to get serious about it and scheduling your workouts in is a good one. That's why I was, well, that's kind of what I was talking about before we jumped on the podcast. For me, my studies sometimes just take a hit because I've kind of developed a mentality like you that I'll always get my gym session in. I'll always do it. But for me, studies is something that's probably less enjoyable for me than going to the gym. So I have to do it. So the thing is what I trialled today, and I've done it before, I'll just wake up and do it straight away because then if I know it's done things like the gym or things like work that are strong for me, I will always make time for that. So I need to do, there's that saying, what is it?
(00:27:15):
I don't know. Is it like kiss the ugly frog in the morning or eat the frog? Do the thing you hate the most first. If you have a big list of things, I've got a whiteboard behind me that has everything I need to do today. If I do the thing that I hate the most first, then everything else seems much easier. But if you leave it, I guess the frog gets uglier and uglier and uglier and uglier as you get more tired. But once you have your fresh energy, you do that thing straight away and then it's easier to do to come back to your I tried that. Sorry, you go.
Regner (00:27:49):
I tried that to get the gym out done in the morning, and then as I got more familiar with the routine and whatnot, I realised that my optimum hour for workout is right after lunch. So I just have more strength. I feel more awake, I feel more alert in the morning. I get hungry during the workout. So for me, one to 2:00 PM is I realise it's the ideal time. That's when my body performs the best. So I moved it from the morning to the afternoon because that's what works for me.
Brock Ashby (00:28:23):
I've never understood people that can work out first thing in the morning, especially without eating food. I tried it for a bit too. I tried to do it. You and I would wake up like five 30, get to the gym at six and train my, and I would struggle. I would struggle. I was just training on pure determination, nothing else. My weights were not heavy and I was hungry. I'm thinking about breakfast and I'm fatiguing, and then I'm looking at my programme, I'm like, I've got three sets left. There's quite a lot of times where I would just can them and just go home just because I was starving.
Regner (00:28:56):
Yes, on Sunday, I went to the afternoon anyway, and I was just like, this 1700 calorie thing, it's like I was so angry. I was like, I can't do this, my power through the workout. But I was literally, this was me holding my stomach during the workout because I was so hungry. I had eaten, but I'm just constantly hungry. I know that I only have one week left on this, so I'm powering through.
Brock Ashby (00:29:19):
So what gets you through those times that are tricky in the calorie deficit? Because we've been in a calorie deficit for significant amounts of time, and a lot of people try diets, a lot of people fail diets. What's been the thing that gets you through? Because a lot of people just struggle with it.
Regner (00:29:39):
Yeah, I think the thing that gets me through is that I actually see the results with you. So it's not this diet that I was trying, and I dunno if I'm making any progress or not. I can literally measure my body. I can weigh myself every day and I take pictures so I know that it's working and that makes all the difference in the world because I don't feel like I'm wasting my time. I know that even if I'm a little bit hungry now, when I weigh myself tomorrow morning, it's probably going to be worth it and I'm closer to my goal. So not shooting bullets in the air, hoping that it's working gets me through every day so I know that it's actually doing something. I'm also complimenting it with exercises, and if I'm really hungry, I might eat some yoghourt and then I won't eat as much as night.
(00:30:28):
Although I did tell you the other day, I had this massive ice cream craving, and I rather just go for that ice cream and sleep because if I go to bed and I'm hungry, I just won't fall asleep and I'll just get hungry and hungry as the night goes by, and then I don't get my eight to six to eight hours of sleep. So I've also now allowed myself to know, at the beginning I was scared that if I messed up one day, I would lose momentum and just say, fuck it and not continue. But now I have the discipline, it's been over a year that I know that if I ate that ice cream that day, I'm still at the gym the next day. There's not going to be any excuse, and I'm still going to do my diet the rest of the day and I'm not going to give up. So I trust myself now and knowing that even if I'm lenient one day, my track record shows that I am capable of getting back on track the next day.
Brock Ashby (00:31:26):
100%. Yeah, that's what I love about flexible dieting too, is once you open up the idea of thinking that it's not just a day-to-day basis, it's like a weekly calorie budget, or even if you take a step back and look at your overall trajectory, which I posted about the other day, if you step back, zoom out and go, well, I started here and now I'm here. That one day of having an ice cream doesn't look like a big deal Once you have that perspective. But often people, when they're starting diets, it's a day by day basis, oh, I failed this day, so that means I'm a failure. That means my fitness is a failure. And yeah, I'm like, screw it, man, I'm out of here. But once you understand that there's a bit of grace between that period of like, okay, you've had an ice cream, but maybe the next day you eat less. Or maybe you just take it on the chin and go, well, I made a mistake. I'll try not to do that next time and have a bit more discipline.
Regner (00:32:22):
At the beginning, it was definitely worth being that disciplined. And like I said, even tallying how much that piece of gum had, because you just don't know. You just have no idea how much calorie is in a bag of M and which I love. They actually helped me think a lot. I think the crunch is something, there's something in my brain and it's chocolate and it makes me really be able to think. But now I know that there's 250 calories in that bag of m ms and it's, that's a whole meal. So at the beginning, it was really, really helpful for me to not allow myself failure and be really strict on myself so that now I know that I have the discipline to not beat myself and ate myself if I have a drink at dinner or if I had that ice cream before bed and let the record show that I did not gain one pound the day after that ice cream,
Brock Ashby (00:33:18):
It's fine. It's fine to have ice cream. I had a man, well, I'm not trying to lose weight at the moment, so I actually have quite a lot of calories to work with. But last night I got a big tablespoon of peanut butter and I just put it in the ice cream tub and just sat down and ate. I was like, I like, I'm just going for it. But the power of that is the flexible, the old me would be like, you can't have that, especially when it's dark having covered, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is fat storage a clock. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's a journey, man. But tracking calories is something that's literally saved my life, and I have to stress, I was obsessive at first so I can understand where people say tracking calories is obsessive, don't do it, all that kind of stuff.
(00:34:04):
I get where that stems from. I don't agree with it, but I've been there. I used to count my almonds, I memorised there was seven calories per almond, so I would limit myself to 10 or 20 on a good day if I was feeling generous with myself, I would get cans of tuna that were in spring water, the smallest cans possible, because I knew that that was the lowest calorie. And I would just navigate my day through tracking things obsessively, which I know probably wasn't the healthiest at the time. But now looking in hindsight, I have this understanding where it's almost like you can see into the matrix and no one else can, especially people that haven't tracked calories before because you are sitting at a dinner table or you're at a wedding and there's food out, and you can kind of see, okay, that's protein, that's carbs, that's fat, that's worth this, that's worth this.
(00:35:00):
And not to become overwhelmed and be obsessing about calories at a wedding. It's something that just goes on in the background of your head that you can make conscious decisions when you're out socially to not screw yourself over. And I think if you did have to obsess at the start to overcome that fear of not knowing, once you have that knowledge, it's such a blessing because if you don't, I was talking about this yesterday on a podcast, the unknown is where the fear comes from. And then when that fear builds, that's where the anxiety comes from and that's where you start to generate these thoughts of, oh, fitness isn't for me. I'm just going to stuff it up. And then you just don't end up starting. But there's worse things to obsess over. People obsess over some stupid things if you're obsessing about calories, just to kind of help yourself out nutritionally, I think there's worse problems.
Regner (00:35:49):
No, for sure. I mean, like I said, I, I'm a control freak, so some of my friends say, how are you able to do this for such a long time? And how long are you going to need to be able? How long are you doing this for? Is this sustainable? And I think that for me, because I like control and I really enjoy knowing what I'm going to eat the moment I wake up and tally. So for dinner, I'm going to have this, and those are properties.
Brock Ashby (00:36:17):
It's a bit of a gang.
Regner (00:36:19):
So yeah, it is a gang. So I find it really fun. I understand that for some people it must be hell, but in my case, I quite enjoy it. And I also tell my friends, if I don't count them today, it's not going to make an impact in the long run. I think they're both impressed and also kind of like, how long is he going to do this?
Brock Ashby (00:36:44):
Also worried.
Regner (00:36:46):
Worried. Yeah, you're so thin now. I'm like, actually, I'm not thin, but I'm better than I was.
Brock Ashby (00:36:54):
But in comparison to where you were, your progress has been substantial. How many pounds are you down today
Regner (00:37:01):
Or
Brock Ashby (00:37:01):
Total?
Regner (00:37:02):
I'm trying to get to the 70 pound mark. It's between 68 and 67, and I'm hoping that it'll be 70 by the end of the week and not for any other reason than to just say 70.
Brock Ashby (00:37:15):
It's just a milestone.
Regner (00:37:17):
Yeah. It's not like my body's going to look ridiculously different, about two pounds lighter, but it's just like the number, there's a nice end to that phase. I didn't think that it was even going to be 70. And I think to myself, sometimes I wonder myself, did Brock, when I first messaged him, did he think that I would be working with him this long and that I would have dropped this amount of weight?
Brock Ashby (00:37:43):
Well, that's always the goal, man. But for me, I'm never going to, when people come to sign up with me for an eight week block, I'm not going to be like, oh yeah, in my head, I'm not going to always say to myself, I'm going to have these guys for years and stuff like that. Because it really depends. Some people I've had for over 80 weeks, which is coming, some I've had over three years when I was face-to-face personal training, I had clients for three years, four years that just wouldn't leave. And not that I wanted them to leave. I mean that would just stay. But I think it's when you find something that works for you in something that you care about a lot, that something that you haven't got progress in before, it's actually quite, it's something you want to hold onto. And I think that's where, not to compliment myself, but I'm a trainer that's founded in research and actually focuses on results, not just churning in clients and being like, Hey, bye. I think that's where that's important.
Regner (00:38:44):
Yeah, I agree. And sometimes I get messages from people on my Instagram and sometimes people want a quick fix solution. How do I lose weight and what have you done to lose weight and build muscle? And it's like you have to, the muscles will come if you're doing weights and you have a good programme. But my goal, I needed to lose a lot of weight. I was 227 pounds and I'm five foot eight, I'm 173 centimetres high. It was a massive amount of weight on my body. So sometimes I see myself and I don't even recognise, I think sometimes I even see myself larger than I am. My friends are like, have you seen yourself? I, I think it's going to take some time to see myself and to adjust not that same person because I'm so used to seeing that same person. So when I started, I needed to buy clothes. That was one of the most exciting parts. I remember when I had lost four pounds and I was like, nobody has said that I've lost. And then when I started seeing the clothes no longer fit properly and starting to buy new clothes, that's when I was like, I would see the clothes. And I was like, there's no way I fit this. And then you wear it and it's like you lose think it fucks up with our mind. You lose perception. It becomes this really wars thing. So it's definitely been fun. It's one of the funnest things I've ever done.
Brock Ashby (00:40:20):
So what's the main benefits you've felt of dropping weight, being this new person?
Regner (00:40:32):
Like I said, I was happy before. I think I'm happier now. I think I am prouder of myself. I found a new category of achieved, new level unlocked in the things that I'm able to do. So I feel very proud of myself and confidence not in the way that I look, but in my capacity to
Brock Ashby (00:40:51):
Achieve things or to stick to something and achieve something. Like to achieve goals. Yeah.
Regner (00:40:57):
So it is just a testament of hard work and me being able to put in that work and that I think gives you a lot of confidence in other sectors of your life. It's not just
Brock Ashby (00:41:10):
About, oh, 100%, man. I love the ripple effect of training and I've kind of stood by it. And I think that's something that's stuck with me for my whole life because I've trained from such a young age and even from when I was too young to lift weights when I was six years old, I still had this diligence of going to sports practise of game day on Saturday, having this diligence of hard work. And now that it's in the gym, it's like training five days, six days a week. It's this work ethic that you generate and you see it with people that work out that they're kind of driven because of what they do in the gym. They have a programme, they follow it. They do what needs to be done. They show up regardless of their programme if it's doing well or if they're doing random workouts and stuff. Take that out. Just the act of sticking to something and trying to progress in heavier weights. It kind of has this ripple effect that it has to pour out in your professional life or else it's like, I don't know, something's wrong. I'm like
Regner (00:42:11):
In the gym. And then there's also the mental part, the emotional and the psychological benefits. I found during this, my show, queer Toia just opened at a museum here, and the months of production towards that show were super stressful. But I still went to the gym four or five times a week depending on what the programme was. And it helped me. And like I said before this, not listening to anything and just listening to your breathing and counting and counting and counting. My brain was resting from all the problems that were going on in the show. So when I needed to go back to work, it felt like I was able to just come up with solutions quicker and pivot and be able to work through the chaos, because I think that my brain really appreciated those two hours, that it wasn't thinking about problems, it was just focusing on my body and my breathing, resting. So when I needed it to power back on, I just felt like it was quicker.
Brock Ashby (00:43:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I found that too. I use it as a stress relief. I kind of used to do it a lot later in the day, but now I do it in between and then I come back and do a couple hours work after that. But yeah, I actually feel refreshed, and I found that my wife feels the same too. When you train, you're using energy, but somehow when you come back you are more energised. It doesn't really make sense. Absolutely. Smashing yourself when you're training. I've seen you train. You've seen videos of me train my wife. Trains just as hard. We go for it and we come back and we're feeling great. And then the days that you don't train, you feel like you're reserving energy. You often feel more tired. I think I feel more tired on my rest days.
Regner (00:43:55):
I find it really, unless I have a really busy day planned where I'm keeping my mind doing elsewhere, I don't enjoy staying at home, watching tv, knowing that I could be at the gym on a Saturday. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'd rather go and do an extra day than just not doing it. I just enjoy it. It becomes happiness for me. I much more happy when I'm there and I'm doing it. And how I feel about myself after is great. So I have to force myself to you. Also a break, your body needs also rest.
Brock Ashby (00:44:33):
Yeah, you do need to recover as well.
Regner (00:44:35):
Just stay put. It's okay. You'll go tomorrow. So it's just been, it's crazy journey and I think everyone's super proud of me and I'm really proud of me.
Brock Ashby (00:44:46):
I'm proud of you as well, man.
Regner (00:44:48):
I
Brock Ashby (00:44:48):
Know it's massive. We've been on this journey for a while. We've gone through different programmes. You've become more advanced as a lifter, tackling more, I guess, complex exercises, different strategies with programmes.
(00:45:02):
What's one way that you've been able to be consistent with your travel? Because you've gone on a few holidays while we've been together too, and that's where people fall short training. A lot of people that travel a lot are like, I can't do it because I travel and I understand. It's tricky, man. On my honeymoon, I'm not saying that this was really a common travel, but I definitely took a hit, a honeymoon's, a bit of a, you're not there to train. You're there to enjoy yourself, but we still train every now and then. But when you travel, there's flights, there's lack of sleep. There's kind of average gyms when you go to hotels and stuff or there's no gym or it says there's a gym and you go there and there's a treadmill. You're like, this isn't a gym man. This isn't a gym. How did you stick to your plan and just keep making progress?
Regner (00:45:58):
The time that I've gone away get daily passes for a gym, for a good gym, I, I'd rather just go and do it, because otherwise, I did go on one trip and I think I remember telling you, I am not bringing gym clothes for this trip, and is it okay if I go to the gym, finish all my routine before I go, and then there's this five day gap where I don't work out, and I did it and I just didn't enjoy it. I felt bad. I felt like I could have easily gone to the gym. I'm just doing nothing here. So if I can be flexible and just go a couple times while I'm on vacation, I always do as many times as I have to go to complete the programme, whether I do two on vacation or three or four or five, it just depends. But I personally, I think it depends on people. I personally rather go, I'm going on another trip in a couple of weeks and I plan, I have to check in baggage. I can't bring carry on because I have to bring gym clothes and I have to bring different types of shoes and whatnot. So it becomes also a thing of planning and it's more costly, but I know that I want to eat and I want to drink a few cocktails when I'm there, so I need to go to the gym.
Brock Ashby (00:47:16):
And you still want to make progress?
Regner (00:47:18):
Yeah. So I did the thing where I didn't bring my gym clothes, and I ended up regretting it thinking, okay, I'm going to have to buy clothes and go to the gym. So I'd rather just say, I'm going to go and I enjoy it. That's my case. I don't think that it works like that for everyone, but in my case, I like the, and I'd rather just enrol in a day past at the gym and do it. I feel much better about myself.
Brock Ashby (00:47:42):
And I think that there's oftentimes on vacation where there's a lull, lull in a day where it's like, well, this is, I guess what I feel because I've been to the gym, I'm like, it's time to go to the gym. People are just like, I don't know. I just have a feeling. I'm like, it's gym time. People are chilling out. Some people, it's like the time in the day where it's like before dinner, I find it's somewhere between three to five where you've done the activities, you're walking around, blah, blah, blah, and then people are like, oh, I'm going to take a nap, or I'm just going to lie on my phone for an hour. I'm going to read. I'm like, it's gym time. It's time to go.
Regner (00:48:19):
That's
Brock Ashby (00:48:20):
It. Yeah, it feels good to train. And my goalposts shift when I'm travelling, I'm not like, I'm going to be the strongest person that I've ever been. I'm going to lift pbs because often when I'm travelling, there's, like I've said, the hotels aren't that great. It's more so I just want to maintain what I'm doing. But it also feels good to really just exert yourself whilst you're training on honeymoon. When we were away, the gym was actually pretty good, but the goal wasn't really to follow my programme to the T and Progressive overload this and that. It was more so because I couldn't do all the exercise. I was just following the broad structure swapping exercises in, but it felt really good to go in with my wife train. And it's also fun. I'm helping her out with exercises. I'm like, try this elbows down. I actually find that really fun and she likes it too. And then when we're, it wasn't really to justify our calories because on honeymoon it was just like we weren't really focused on trying to stay in the best shape of our lives, but it was more so just I enjoy it and I actually look back on the honeymoon and those are parts that I enjoyed. Sure. I enjoyed snorkelling with eagle rays and seeing dolphins on the boat, but then I'm like, man, it was actually fun training too. For
Regner (00:49:33):
Sure. I think that too. And I think that a lot of before you start, and maybe even some people who do train, there's the idea that you go to the gym because you have to, not because you love it or it, and I have been kinder to myself when people say, oh, you don't have to go to the gym at all as much as you do. But it's like some people like to go to the beach and sit and do nothing and read a book or listen to music while sitting on the beach. Why is it bad that I rather want to go
Brock Ashby (00:50:06):
And lift weights
Regner (00:50:08):
When I go out on a holiday? That's part of what I do. I want to see the gym. I want to see the people that go to the gym. And like I said, because I know that I have a tendency to pack on weight easier than to lose it. If I want to enjoy the local cuisine, then I'm happy for the trade off to go to the gym, enjoying it anyway. And that way don't feel like an absolute failure if I have barbecue ribs with french fries at night.
Brock Ashby (00:50:34):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was having this conversation with someone at the gym yesterday, and she was saying when she goes on holiday, we were talking about honeymoons because it's fresh in our mind. And she was saying that when she went on one with her husband, she loved hanging by the pool, listening to music, reading books, and I was like, that's just not me. I get itchy feet very easily. Sometimes my wife films me and I'm just standing there with my feet crossed, tapping my feet. I look like I want to move, and I even want to, I get this thing when I eat at dinner. Sometimes I just need to stand up and walk around. It's a weird thing.
(00:51:12):
I'm considered a hard gainer anyway, so genetically I have a higher neat level than most people, a higher tendency to move. That's just me as a kid. I've just always moved. That's just a trait that I've always had, and I just stand around. I just want to move. So to me, at the honeymoon, there wasn't really a time where I would just lay down in the sun unless I was asleep. So if I'm laying down, I'm asleep, or I'm like, I don't know, aren't dms or doing something on my phone, like writing a caption or posting a reel or answering something back. I just like to do things and everyone's different. That's the beauty of life in general. Some people like to sip cocktails by a pool. I couldn't think of anything worse. I'd rather go, I'd rather go for a snorkel, or I'd rather go for a walk or back in the Maldives, get on our bicycle and go bike to a beach that we haven't been to before. That stuff for me is really fun. But everyone's different. And I don't think we should be. Like when people want to go to the gym, like, oh, man, come on, we're on holiday. What are you doing? You don't have to do that. It's like, bro, just lemme train, man, having fun. I'm having just as much fun as you are at the pool, having cocktails in the gym.
Regner (00:52:25):
I was talking about this with a gym friend I have. He loves to go to the beach. I mean, we live in tropical Caribbean islands.
Brock Ashby (00:52:34):
I wouldn't man, a lot
Regner (00:52:35):
Have to go to the beach, but I have a threshold. If I am at the beach, I can't, after two hours, I am ready to go home. It's enough. I have to pee. I'm hungry. I'm bored. I'm not doing anything. I'm just sitting there. If I get up, I'm worried somebody's going to steal my shit. So I'm like, I would rather just remain pale and not be tanned because it's still cool, especially if I'm by myself, and especially since I'm not even drinking. I can't afford the calories at the moment, so I'm just not like, I'd rather go to the gym and that's what I'll do. But it's crazy. It is movement thing. This hitting the 10,000 steps. I eat my yoghourt bowl every morning while standing so that by the time I'm done, I've hit 10,000 steps. Even if I'm just,
Brock Ashby (00:53:23):
I've seen the videos of you on Instagram. I'm like, that's impressive, man. That's commitment.
Regner (00:53:28):
So if I'm posting something on social media from work, I walk around the hallways because maybe I ended up doing 20 minutes of walking, where normally I would just be on the couch or sitting on bed writing that. So today I knew that I was going to have a day where I was going to be sitting down for quite a while, so I went walking around my building while reading on my iPad and stuff. So
Brock Ashby (00:53:51):
Yeah, I do similar things. I do similar things. I know that, for example, I have to edit some reels that I've recorded. So I'm going to go for a walk while I do that because I can edit and walk on my phone. It's just what you have to do. I'm sitting down all day as well. Same as you. I'm a personal trainer, but that doesn't mean I'm in a gym 24 7. I spend most of my time here at the desk, whiteboard in the back, typing, doing my thing. But sometimes you just have to do what you've got to do. We're talking before, it's that trade-off, and that's why people with sedentary jobs that don't have the effort or have the awareness, that movement is such a powerful factor for health. They're missing out on the benefits.
Regner (00:54:33):
Yeah. My favourite place to edit reels is on the bike, on the stationary bike.
Brock Ashby (00:54:39):
Yeah. I see.
Regner (00:54:40):
Time goes by and you burn that many calories. You're like
Brock Ashby (00:54:43):
Sweating, dripping on the phone,
Regner (00:54:46):
The time you hit post, you finish the workout and it's done and you hit the calories. But
Brock Ashby (00:54:53):
Yeah. Yeah, I've always considered getting a treadmill desk, but we don't have a big enough apartment yet because it'd literally be in the lounge.
(00:55:04):
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd like to have it at home so I can walk and do stuff like that. But then again, I think I like to go outside as well to walk. It's always nice to be in nature. It's much different than staring at a wall in front of me and just kind of doing my thing. One thing I want to start wrapping up the podcast with, because we've already been talking for about an hour, I think with this podcast, it's called Better With Brock because it's about becoming better. Obviously you've been sharing what's helped you become better, what obstacles you've overcome, but in a more general aspect of life and self-development, something that you do every day to become better,
Regner (00:55:53):
I think what do I do every day to become better?
Brock Ashby (00:56:02):
Take some time if you want, because it's pretty broad, but some people have their things. For example, I wake up and read this thing called the Thank Bank that I used to call gratitude list. But that's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing. That's the, that I wake up and I've talked about this a fair bit, so I'll it brief, but I kind of write things that I'm grateful for. Simple things like a roof over my head, clothes on my body, real basic, because that takes you back to gratitude. So if you start your day with that, I'm grateful to be alive type of chat. Then everything else is cool because we're so blessed already the life that we have. There's a lot of first world problems these days, so it's really easy to go, oh, I don't have the latest AirPods, or I don't have the latest MacBook. But if you go, I've got clothes, I've got enough money to survive, I've got food and I've got friends, I've got family, then. So I kind of say that stuff first and then I
Regner (00:57:03):
Do that at night. I do that before bed.
Brock Ashby (00:57:06):
Right. So the morning and night are supposedly the most crucial times to do that because it's when your brain's fresh, and it's also when you're about to go to sleep, and then you're about to kind of, I guess, rest on those thoughts that you last thought. Yeah. So the first thing is gratitude for what I have. The second thing is declaring what I want to become and the person I want to be because I'm just Brock 28 point and the 29.0 version could be different and could be better. So I kind of declare what I want to be. I want to be hardworking. I want to be generous. I want to be unique. I want to be diligent. I want to be this, and then I want to be that. And then I declare what I want from life. So pretty much my goals. I want to achieve this.
(00:57:51):
I want to help these people. I want to help this many people. I want to have a website that does this. I get quite specific then because I believe the perspective you have to look through life really determines what you get back. So having eyes to see those things allows you to attract them, I think, and put the work to get them, because I did this crazy thing where I wanted, back in the day, it was a small thing. I just wanted to rent a house, a one bedroom apartment with a water view. Like I said, that in 2016, and then in 2017 I had it. And that wasn't because of, I do believe in the secret and law of attraction, but I don't think that you just sit and dream and it happens. I worked for it. I was on real estate apps and I paid for it and blah, blah, blah, that sort of stuff.
(00:58:36):
So I wanted that stuff and I saw it and it happened. So I like to put those things out there so I can do what I do to need to get there. And then the last thing I like to read is just quotes that kind of just pretty much they motivate me, they inspire me. I have all these quotes that I read. There's probably about 30 of them, and every time I hear a good one, I just put it on. So every morning I'm kind of filling myself a thing. So I guess if I was to answer your question, that's what I do. That's my thing that makes me bulletproof for the day. If someone says, Brock, you're a stupid personal trainer, I hope you die, or something like that, I'm like, I don't care because I've made myself bulletproof because I know where I am and what I want.
Regner (00:59:18):
For sure. The gratitude aspect is I like to do it before I go to sleep. So I'll revisit the 10 things that happened that day that made the day nice. Even if something really bad happened, sometimes I'll say somebody gave me a smile and that made me feel nice or somebody or the power didn't go out because in Puerto Rico, we have blackouts all the time. So I was like, oh, today the power didn't go out and I was able to do everything that I needed to do, or my back feels much better, so I'll give thanks for little things. Sometimes I'll give thanks for you. You're on my list. I'll be like, and I'm thankful that I have Brock because I wouldn't have been able to do this. And it's really crazy because I started writing down. I did the things that I want to do, the things that I want to get. And when you get them, it's really easy to forget that you wanted that a year ago.
(01:00:11):
Sometimes I like rereading the things that I wanted because you realise that life gave them to you, and one of the things was, I want to look my best, or I want to lose this amount of weight. And I had forgotten that. I was so specific when I asked for that, and I wrote that down that I went back and I was like, you got tenfold what you wanted. And you almost forgot that. And the universe is providing, but if you don't, don't, I'm at the process right now of redoing that whole thing, rereading those lists to see actually how much you've gotten and you've accomplished so that then you feel like, wow, it happens for me. And because we forget about all the good things that happen,
Brock Ashby (01:00:53):
It's so easy to do that.
Regner (01:00:55):
It just becomes like default. You got it. And you'd even recognise that you wanted that badly. And then the other thing that I think makes my, I want to say that maybe it does make me better, but it makes my life better, is my two pets, Kon and Vale or my two little parrots my days. I've seen
Brock Ashby (01:01:12):
That on Instagram, man,
Regner (01:01:14):
It's crazy. I love
Brock Ashby (01:01:15):
When they make a feature.
Regner (01:01:18):
My day starts with them saying, good morning, my love, and giving me kisses so you can't go. It doesn't get any better than me. How
Brock Ashby (01:01:25):
Can you have a bad day after that? Man,
Regner (01:01:27):
I know I start the day smiling and laughing at what they're doing and saying. So I think that that puts me in a particular mindset. I think that they help calm me. They make me kind a more empathetic person as well, not just for humans, but for other species. And I think also I'm really aware that I'm doing what I want. I'm very happy with my career. I'm doing meaningful work here, and I feel like my work matters. So I don't go to work thinking I'm just getting money. I'm just doing to get paid. I have a tonne of respect for people who that's the life that they have, and I'm happy and I'm grateful that in my case, I feel like I just don't have a job. I have a mission, and I think that that helps give me a different mood during the day, and it makes me just be a
Brock Ashby (01:02:18):
Happier person. So there's two things I'd add to that with the whole mission over a job thing. I think the first thing with a mission is it's not very hard to stay motivated. For example, the concept of me being unmotivated does not come to my mind just because I'm not chasing a paycheck. I was doing this a long time ago before any sort of, I guess success or having a group of clients to work with. Before I had that, I was doing this ages ago, having a mission. If you're doing something you love, you don't have to go, oh, okay, let's go. Let's do this. If you're doing something, let's say you love playing PlayStation games. You love playing Call of Duty. You don't have to get motivated to do that. You don't have to go, oh, I hope someone helps me turn on the PlayStation. You'll do that. You'll sit down and you'll do that for hours. And if you can do that with something that you enjoy, then you don't have to get motivated. And the second thing that I would add to that is with the concept of having your own work, I've kind of lost my train of thought there.
(01:03:38):
It kind of baffles me that people would do a job, and I understand not everyone's in the same situation as us too, to find their passion. Sometimes people don't have their passion, but if you have the opportunity or you have time on your side to do so, which most of us do, whether we know it or not, try and do something you enjoy. We spend majority, I would say majority of our life, working majority. If you work nine to five, 40 hours, if you sleep eight hours, that's half of your waking day. We spend that doing our job. Why would you do something that's literally boring you to death? That's what you do most of your life. I was talking about it yesterday on a podcast as well, you have to try things, and I'm not trying to get motivational or motivational speaker, life coach, whatever, but you have to try things.
(01:04:29):
I've tried many jobs that I just didn't like, but the things that I didn't led me to what I did. And I think too many of us are too scared to step out and try things. Like I wash dishes, I serve tables. I sold flip-flops. I hated that. I flipped burgers at a rugby stadium. I used to actually, this was quite a cool job. I used to be a ball boy at the rugby stadium. I was really into rugby, and my principal chose the ball boys for the stadium. So when the All Blacks would play at Jade Stadium back in the day, I was the guy that if they kicked the ball out, I would bring the ball back and be like, Hey, you go and wipe it with a towel. I tried all these different things and I always said yes to things. I used to clean the church when I was back going to church, and I was really into it when I was singing.
(01:05:17):
That was my main job. But if you don't make it and singing, you don't get paid. So I was literally cleaning the church, the toilets, I was vacuuming everything. I was doing that on the side, but just to kind of get by. But doing all these things, you discover what you don't like, and I think that's important. Yeah, I think that's important to discovering what you like because life's too short to spend half of your waking life doing something that you hate or something that even slowly kills you. It kills. There's some people you talk to that are just beaten down. They're struggling and they're just stuck in this world. But I think we need to try as many things as possible to get to something that we enjoy.
Regner (01:05:55):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I've seen it with friends and partners of friends who are doing jobs that they don't really like and that they know that that's not what they want to do in life. They're equipped with the capacity and the skillset and the education to change the circumstance, but they don't. And I don't know. I'm not like that. I'm not built like that. I am built to get what I want, but I don't understand the mentality of if you have the power. I know that some people are just dealt really shitty cards and circumstance just led you to that. And I understand that sometimes you're stuck in it and you can't get out of it. But I think that there's also young people and educated people who are stuck in circumstances that they don't enjoy. I don't get that. I think that to me is baffling.
Brock Ashby (01:06:47):
You have to climb your way out somehow. You can't be defeated by that. And yeah, that's why I'm a big fan of not the initial time of going through adversity. That is always the worst time. But I think adversity is a great development for your character. The stuff that I went through when I was younger, losing my mom, that made me a stronger person. Not that I'd wish that upon anyone, but that can really generate your problems that used to be huge are now very small. Because what's important, coming back to that gratitude thing, you're just grateful for being alive. That's a really fundamental thing. Once you have anything above that, the
Regner (01:07:24):
People that you still have in your life,
Brock Ashby (01:07:27):
And then anything above that is a bonus. So why not go for it? But then there's also some personalities that take a different approach to that. They might let that really impact them. So we all have different, it's tricky to say, oh, if you go through something hard, you just have to grow out of it because sometimes people don't have the strength to get through that or the people around them or the environment or the mental capacity. But yeah, I think that's a great teacher for us all. And I think that when we go through those things, it can help develop that grit, I think,
(01:08:03):
To get through those things. So I think we could talk about this forever, but is there anything you want to, I guess, throw to, I know you are running your exhibition. I know you have a radio show that not everyone would know coming on this hearing about your fitness journey and stuff like that, obviously that's what I know you as or your world in terms of fitness. But I also know your career is a big part of your life. Is there anything you want to, I guess, let people know where they can check it out if they want to?
Regner (01:08:34):
Yeah, if they want to follow my project, it's called Queer Topia. It's spelled C-U-I-R-T-O-P-I a's this really beautiful projects that talks about island life and what it's like to reimagine what Caribbean spaces can be for the queer community here. There's a lot of artwork, beautiful drawings, maps, models, artefacts, beautiful imagery. So yeah, if people want to check it out, that'd be really cool. But the most important thing I think, is to spread the word I think about the podcast and about your page, Brock. I think that's the most important thing. And I keep telling my friends, follow him because people message me and ask me your advice. And I'm like, follow Brock, because no one's going to be able to explain it better than he does on his posts. So thank you for ringing me on and for working with me all this time. It's been just the craziest journey. It's been so fun. Worth the whole pain, sweat, hardship, starvation.
Brock Ashby (01:09:44):
Sounds great, man. You're selling it very well. The thing
Regner (01:09:48):
Is, and I do tell my friends when they're like, oh, if there were no results, I would've given up a long time ago. I would've called bss. But because the results are there, sometimes daily, other times, normally it's weekly, sometimes monthly, but it's all documented there and it works and it works for me and it works for a bunch of other people. If you have to suffer a little bit, you see the result at the end of the day. And I think that that is what motivates people to keep going because you literally know that it's right there. I know that if I stick up the rest of the week at 1700 calories, I'm going to hit the 70 pound weight loss goal, which doesn't mean anything really in terms of what it does for my body, but it is just like an imaginary number that means something to me.
Brock Ashby (01:10:43):
It's a box to be ticked, man. You're an ambitious person. You like to feel like you're making progress. And I think even though those numbers don't mean anything on paper for you, it's like I did that. It's a special thing and you've completely changed yourself. So I completely see that. I a hundred percent see that. Thanks for the kind words, man. I appreciate it. It's really overwhelming to hear. Sometimes I get really focused on, let's do this, let's do that. I'm a very look forward person. I've always struggled with celebrating things, terms of even my client's progress because I don't know, there's a million things to do in life, but it's nice to be brought back and even hear you say that it's really special, man. But as much as I've played a part, it takes two to tango. You have to, let's put it in your words, starve yourself.
(01:11:34):
You have to train when you don't feel like it. You have to wake up and do steps while you're reading books on the iPad. You've had to do all that. And that's where I definitely wanted to have you on because you are the person that's done the work. And that's what I want to communicate with the podcast, with my message. Just if you hear Brock Ashby name overall, it's just like there has to be work. It's hard to achieve things. I don't like this message. Fat loss is easy. It's just like a walk in the park, like we said. Yeah, there's no quick fix. No, there has to be a trade off. There has to be something that you give up to change. Because if you do the same things, there's that quote, there's insanity. It's insanity to expect different results. You have to do different things to be in a different place than where you are now. And you are that person that's done that, which is inspiring. Even posting your transformation photos and just seeing them. When I check in with you every single week, it's like, wow, man, this guy's killing it, man. He's achieving things. This is what people want to do. And that's why I wanted to get your message out there because it's unique. Unfortunately, it's unique. I would love everyone to get the results that you get, but it takes a certain mindset and a certain courage to do that.
Regner (01:12:45):
I think that's why sometimes my followers or my friends will, because the account that you follow, Regner XYZ was about my work. People weren't used to seeing fitness content. But the reason why I share it is because I want people to realise that it takes a lot of work to be successful in everything. It takes a lot of work to lose this amount of weight. It takes a lot of work to build muscle just as much as it takes a lot of work to put on an exhibition or publish a book or get ahead in your career, it takes effort. And I think a lot of times people on social media to post the outcome, but it looks really pretty when it's just the outcome and you don't know how to get there. So I like to share the journey so that people know just how hard I work, but also because I do it. If I did it and I never thought that I could do it because I'm an academic, my brain was focusing on other things. If I can do it, anyone can do it, but it's going to take work and it's going to take focus and you just have to commit.
Brock Ashby (01:13:46):
Yeah, but that's the inspiring thing, seeing the journey. But I also think when you say that it's hard work, it qualifies people that are up to the job to do it. I think when you say, this was easy, I lost 70 pounds. Check it out. It's like people think, oh yeah, this is easy. They give it a go. They don't lose 70 pounds. They don't even lose one pound because they can't stick to the diet. They give up and then they're like, fitness isn't for me. But if you say, guys, I did it, but it was hard. I did this, I did that. And you document it as you go, people are like, wow, it takes this to do this. So then you have a more accurate idea of how you can get there yourself. But if you just see the outcome, like you said, and this whole fluffy idea of fat loss is easy, you just need to stop eating bread and then in three days you lose three kilos. It's so great. I hate that message. That's not the truth. But what you're spreading is the truth.
Regner (01:14:44):
And I think at the beginning, you really have to arm yourself. Like I said, when I lost four pounds, I was expecting people to tell me, you look skinnier. And it's like, it doesn't work that way at four pounds when you're 227 pounds, no one tell anything. I could barely tell. So you can't rely on anything out, any external validation. You just have to go through the motions and do it every day and weigh yourself and take it week by week and not get discouraged. But the outcome will come and it's going to feel so great when you do see it. And when everyone starts noticing and when you're closed, no longer fit, and you see the pictures, the before and after, it's crazy. It becomes almost addictive. Like, oh my God, if I did this, what's next? What can I do next?
Brock Ashby (01:15:36):
But there was things to be addicted to, you know what I mean? Sure.
(01:15:41):
But yeah, man, it's super inspiring, man. So I'm excited to get through the 70 pound milestone just to tick the box and then continue to see where we can go. It'll be cool to really commit to a build phase or a maintenance phase for a while so we can get some more calories in and really push it to work. And that's one thing I guess I'd like to end the podcast with is you don't have to live in a deficit. People will hear you saying, oh, I'm on 1700 calories and stuff like that. That's not forever. That's just to get from A to B. And
Regner (01:16:13):
We've, and I also say that, I don't know if you recall, but this was me telling you, Brock, I think that we need to be really aggressive and bring it down to S
Brock Ashby (01:16:20):
This is your fault, man. You did this to
Regner (01:16:22):
Yourself, myself, my friends. They're like, why is he giving you 1700? I was like, I asked him for 1700 because I needed to be more aggressive to hit the 17 pound mark.
Brock Ashby (01:16:32):
Yeah, that's the thing though. It's all unique to you. Some people can handle aggressive things. You are very committed, you're very driven. You are data driven, so you can see what's occurring so you can stick to it. Some people can't handle the low calories. They last two days and then they're like, I'm starving. I'm getting BK on the way home and I'm giving up. So once again, that's credit to you for the mindset that you carry in your diligence to achieve. But not everyone can handle it. For example, me, even though I still have that mindset of diligence and stuff like that, I just prefer more calories. So I'm really slow. I like a slow cut. I'm like, alright, I want to drop a couple kilos. I'm going to drop it in eight weeks. I just go super slow. I can't tell. All I do is instead of having ice cream at night, I'll have an apple bang. If I do that over eight weeks, I'll lose two kilos super slowly. But that's what I like. That's what I prefer at this time. But if someone's like, Hey man, let's do a photo shoot next week. I'll probably be like, let's go the ner approach. Let's drop down to 1700 and just it. So it all depends.
Regner (01:17:34):
You also said something really, really I think insightful and one of the post-its you had done where it's not about where it's about getting as much food as you possibly can within those 1700 calories and not feeling as little as you can. So I think that now that I've done this for such a long time, this last cycle of 1700 calories, I can manage it a lot better because I know already what's best, what works best, what's going to fill me for longer, even though I'm hungry and most of the time, but it's not.
Brock Ashby (01:18:10):
But you could be hungrier though. That's the thing. You could be hungrier.
Regner (01:18:13):
I could be hungrier and I could be miserable. I get hangry sometimes, but I do eat well. I'm not literally starving myself. I am eating a significant amount of chicken and protein and yoghourt. I'm not starving myself. But your body does notice that you're running on low fuel particularly.
Brock Ashby (01:18:32):
Oh, of course. But that's the nature of the calorie deficit. That's what people have to understand. And that's why I don't like the whole fat loss airy fairy. Oh, I just lose weight a like I sneeze in all my weight falls off. It's not like that, man. A calorie deficit. If you look at it and break it down, it's controlled starvation. It's still starvation. You are receiving less than your body needs. That's classed as starvation. So let's make it very clear that a diet is just a fancy word for controlled starvation. So once you understand that, you can understand that you will feel hungry. That's what happens when you starve your dog. Your dog will come up to you and bark at you until you feed it because it's hungry. If you put it on a deficit, if you were to do that for a dog that's a little bit overweight, it's going to tell you that it's hungry and it's the same with you.
(01:19:25):
So once you get that, you understand, yes, dieting is going to be hard, but once again, that's more I think, empowering than disempowering. Because you know that when you get hungry, hungry, you're like, this is part of the process. I'm doing it right. It's not like, oh, I'm hungry. I shouldn't be hungry. I'm dieting, I'm giving up. I need pizza. It's like, okay, I'm meant to be hungry. So this is what's meant to happen. And once again with that, eating as much food as possible. So pro that, I feel like social media almost glorifies how little you can eat. It's like these fitness influences are almost posting how little they eat and how, how much they can start themselves. They're like, oh, this is my 1200 calorie day. I'm like, man, you don't eat like that. You don't eat like that. That is not sustainable. Let's talk about how much we can eat calorie wise, but also if the calories are lower, how much can we fit in that?
(01:20:29):
I don't like this whole under reading kind of fitness thing. It used to be cool bodybuilders being like, Hey man, I post this. And it's like Tupperware of chicken and broccoli. That's gone. We know better than that. We don't have to eat that anymore. We can have big yoghourt bowls, we can have big chicken bowls, rice bowls and all that kind of stuff whilst we're dieting. That's what I want to talk about. And it's cool that you're talking about that as well. You are literally living it. You're on a deficit. Sure, your calories are a bit low, but you're still trying to put as much as you can in there.
Regner (01:21:02):
For sure. So I'm looking forward to this week being over.
Brock Ashby (01:21:07):
Yeah, man, let's get through it. Let's get through it. Alright man. Well let's call it there, man. Once again, I appreciate you coming on here. Yeah, man. And I'll edit this up and I'll get it back to you and we'll go from there. But I'll see you in your weekly check-in photos, measurements. Wait, this is me as a coach talking now. Yeah, I'll see your checkin. And then yeah, we'll make some changes from there. Get some more food in there. Maybe sneak some m and ms in there. More ice cream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. And we'll change the approach. But man, thanks for coming on. It's been awesome to hear your story, even though I know your story. It's nice to get the insight and finally talk to you like this.
Regner (01:21:46):
Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you for inviting me and I'll see you
Brock Ashby (01:21:50):
Later. Yeah, man, I'll see you soon.
Regner (01:21:52):
Bye.
Brock Ashby (01:21:53):
Catch you brother. Bye-Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00:02):
What's up guys and girls? This is episode number 11 of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm with my client, Ricardo. How do I say your name? Salazar. I want to get it right.
Ricardo Salazar (00:00:15):
Salazar. Yep,
Brock Ashby (00:00:16):
You got it. So I'm with Ricardo and I asked them to jump on the podcast because he's had an amazing run, well, I should say is having an amazing run with his body transformation. He's completely different, I would say, inside and out. He's just achieved an amazing success with this, and I want to just give you, I guess an insight or behind the scenes look or under the hood look of what he's been through to achieve that. Obviously we all start diets, we start training programmes and actually the data's not that exciting when you look at it. A lot of diets fail, and I find that to be inspiring as opposed to depressing because I'm like, well, what can we do to make them more successful? And Ricardo's a success story. He's had amazing results, but he's also had his own struggles of, I guess misunderstanding or listening to people's advice that potentially isn't right and going down the wrong road.
(00:01:21):
But now I guess I've coached him for a while. We did, and now he's in Built by Brock, which is a programme where he has access to everything pretty much that he needs to have to achieve a successful transformation with workouts and nutrition. And he's more so taking his transformation in his own hands, still under my guidance I guess you could say. But he has a real understanding of education behind nutrition, behind training, behind things he can do with his lifestyle to actually achieve success. And like I said, he's one of those people that has achieved it. So I kind of want to give you a look of, oh, this is what he went through. I'm going through that too, but this is what he did to actually push through where some people would, I guess, potentially fail or give in and then lose hope. So yeah, I guess Ricardo, to start where to give people a picture. Just give us a brief intro on yourself, what you do, I guess where you're from and all this kind of stuff. And then I'd like you to slowly go into, I guess where you were before you started your transformation and I guess how you got to a place where you're like, okay, I want to make a change.
Ricardo Salazar (00:02:30):
Perfect. Well first off, thanks Brock for having me. I think it's a great opportunity for me to share to wider audiences. I've had a lot of friends that have seen what we've worked on starting since last year, last summer, and the common question is that they always think that there was some sort of secret that you unlocked that I had no idea. And it's like, well, actually it's straightforward, but it was a process and it was a process that required discipline. And so to start off, my name's Ricardo Salazar. I live in Texas, I'm in Dallas. I'm a finance professional. I've been working in debt and investment management for a number of years now. I'm going to be changing jobs starting June 1st, so I'm going to be an investment banker, but still in the same industry. But yeah, my background is not in fitness obviously.
(00:03:28):
I studied finance. I'm a finance guy through and through. I even did some teaching for a few years, but that's always kind of been my focus. I'm a numbers guy and so everyone else that isn't into a fitness professional, I only know what I was exposed to through TV through just word of mouth from hearing it from sometimes on radio shows, but by no means was an expert. And in college I tried going to the gym and I would go to the gym with a buddy and I dropped a lot of weight one year because I had put on a good amount of weight my senior year in high school, and I did it in the worst way possible. It was just a really aggressive and unhealthy calorie deficit. I had no idea about nutrition, so I just basically wasn't eating. And it's something that when you share your story Brock about and you show that picture when you're really, really skinny, it was something looked similar to that is what I looked like, but I just was not going about it the right way.
(00:04:37):
And then for a good 10 years, I was mostly around the same kind of average middle. I was never a big guy, but I was also a real skinny guy, but sometimes he would yo-yo and that was normal. But then after December of 2017, I lost my dog, my husky, and I was really depressed, so I was drinking a lot, was eating terribly all the time, and I put on a fair amount of weight for about a year and then I just never, I was kind of in a funk to be honest for a while because I was kind of feeling like my job, I was in a rutt really in my career and what I was spending a lot of my time on was more than anything doing I guess anything social that would get me out of the house, but a lot of that just revolves around eating and drinking.
(00:05:47):
And so I was working, going into an office, which it was becoming clear to me was exhausting, just the commuting, all that sort of, and then I wasn't really happy when I was there, and so what would I do on my free time? Just go out and eat and drink and just not have any sort of structure or healthy habits built in. Right. Well, the pandemic happens and the first few months of the pandemic, so this was already two years ago, we didn't know, no one knew how long this was going to go, how long this is going to last. So in my mind, because I was so tired of commuting to work and I actually was exhausted of always filling my calendar with commitments that weren't even really about me. It was someone's birthday, it was someone's brunch, it was someone's whatever, and I finally had the opportunity to be alone, to be at home, just relaxed with the dog.
(00:06:48):
I did adopt. I rescued a big Golden Pyrenees asleep right now, thankfully, shout out to Dakota. One was over there, he's taking his nap. We just finished our long walk and so this is terrible. I know because the pandemic was no joke, but the only big plus for me was that I was finally given space to kind of think and just clear my head. I didn't have any social commitments, no one was doing anything, and I didn't have to go into the office. I was working completely from home. So the first few months of the pandemic, I was kind of like, man, I'm just going to do all these things I've been wanting to do, pick up on these hobbies that I've been wanting to my cooking and baking and just my video games. And I was kind of having my own little party and I would sometimes it'd be 12:00 PM and I was like, oh, time for a cocktail who caress, no pool during pandemic and then the summer rolls around, we all kind of realised, Hey, this is going to go on for a long time. This isn't going to be a two, three month thing and we're back to normal.
(00:08:00):
Yeah. Then summer, I just took a lot of time to think about why do I feel this way? Why do I feel just stuck? Career was a big part of it. I just felt stuck in my career, but also I knew I wasn't happy with the way that I looked. I just wasn't, and I knew that, especially when I got to that point because I had put on even a little bit extra weight when I was during the pandemic of what I was doing, eating and just drinking at home. I was like, it doesn't have to be this way. It just doesn't. I'm just doing it just because I can, but doesn't mean I wasn't happy when I looked at myself in the mirror. So I just started on my own at home and it was July of 2020 when I started and all I had at home and I kept them as kind of almost reminders. They're in the corner of my, like
Brock Ashby (00:08:55):
A trophy,
Ricardo Salazar (00:08:57):
A yoga mat and a kettlebell and only one kettlebell. Not like a whole set. There's a single one that I have there,
Brock Ashby (00:09:06):
Single out everything. Yeah,
Ricardo Salazar (00:09:08):
Yeah. Single everything. I always do the whole, I would load YouTube, kettlebell routines on the tv, stream 'em on there, then I would do yoga, and I just knew that if I start doing something, it's better than what I'm doing now, which is nothing. Something
Brock Ashby (00:09:28):
Is better than nothing. Yeah.
Ricardo Salazar (00:09:30):
I was like, all I was doing that was considered active was walking the dog, but outside of that I was just kind of chilling. So yeah, I just started with the kettlebell, started with the yoga and then just pushups and that sort of stuff at home. And then I knew the one thing I did know about nutrition, I knew that alcohol has a bunch of calories and especially when you start making delicious sugary cocktails, you're just loading up. So I cut all that out and I just started making what I, at the time from information that I knew healthier dishes, and they were definitely compared to some of the stuff that I was eating before and I started seeing, and it was within a month progress, I was dropping and I started just seeing small differences in my body and so that it's a snowball effect. You start to see a little bit of progress, a little bit of results, and it really does motivate you and show you like, Hey, I can keep this going. So I
Brock Ashby (00:10:37):
Did. Yeah, actually, sorry to jump in quickly. That's the triangle of motivation that I talk about quite often, how people think that motivation is the source of where your action comes from, but it's not, it's actually results first. So it's like action first and then sorry, results second, action first results second, and then motivation. So it's the action that needs to happen first, which is what you did with the kettlebell and with the yoga Ma, you just took action and that's where it starts. But people often think it's just starts by this whiff of motivation that just comes past and then all of a sudden you're motivated to do things. But often it's easier to be, which can happen by the way, but it's often easier to get motivated after results. And so you try with the kettlebell and the yoga mat, you get just a little bit of results. Like you said, you started dropping, started eating a bit healthier, and then you got those results, and then yeah, you get motivation and that's where it starts you. So you start working out, you start getting a bit of motivation and then you continue to do the same.
Ricardo Salazar (00:11:48):
Yeah, I started increasing just the activity in terms of was doing more longer yoga sessions, longer kettlebell YouTube streams, and then in the fall I was like, I'm going to risk the rona. I wasn't vaccinated yet. I was like, I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to put on my mask and just they reopened in October, so I joined the gym in October and I started going to the gym four to five times a week, not knowing again, I didn't have the education at the time, so I was just going again, what I would do is I would get on Google and I would Google great upper body plans or whatever it is, and I would also watch the YouTube videos, great leg day, whatever. And so I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do what this dude's doing right here. And I would just go in. Sometimes I would have YouTube running and I would in the gym, I was like, all right, next one. So that's how I did it for a number of months and continued to drop weight. So on my own before I got involved and we worked together, I got about 30 to 32 pounds of weight loss accomplished through just me kind of learning learning's. Great.
Brock Ashby (00:13:08):
That's such a great achievement to do on your own.
Ricardo Salazar (00:13:11):
And everyone was just like, man, you look great. And I did. I felt really happy. And the thing that made me I think most proud is that no one forced me to do it. And no one was like, Hey, dude, you look terrible. You need to hit the gym. It wasn't sort of like a negative, it was purely just because I wanted to do it for myself.
Brock Ashby (00:13:34):
You had a realisation, I need to get healthier or I need to start looking after myself.
Ricardo Salazar (00:13:40):
Exactly. And more than anything, what the pandemic helped in that respect was that I had no excuse. I can no longer say, man, it's because I have to get up super early and then I have to fight traffic, and then I'm stuck at the office and then I come back and I'm stuck in traffic again. By the time I get home it's 7:00 PM or six 30, I'm exhausted. I got to walk the dog and by that time and we're all done, I have to clean up and go to bed. That is a valid excuse. I understand that because I was exhausted by the normal grind of Monday through Friday, and then it's like, oh, well, a friend might get their feelings hurt if I didn't go to their birthday brunch, blah, blah, blah. So there's always an excuse to say, this is why I can't make time for the gym. Well, the pandemic ended all of that. It's like, you absolutely have the time. You're just at home all day.
Brock Ashby (00:14:28):
That's all we had was time.
Ricardo Salazar (00:14:31):
So I was like, well, and so it helped a lot to just couldn't make up an excuse anymore. So yeah. Yes, I made all this progress and it's something that I wrote about when I signed up for the one-on-one training by the spring of 2021, I definitely noticed a plateau. I mean, I had made a bunch of progress 30, 32 pounds or so, and I definitely did see some growth in my body, but I just plateaued. I wasn't really moving anymore in terms of up or down with my weight, and I also didn't seem like I was growing exponentially or anything with my body. It just kind of seemed like I was in stasis. And then I decided in the summer of 2021, I'm going to try that DEXA fit body scan, body fat sort of thing, curious. I don't know how to measure what I look like or what my composition really is.
(00:15:37):
So I'm going to go to this DEXA fit place. And in my mind, the way I saw myself was like, man, I'm probably 15% or something. I have to be like, I've lost all this weight and I went to Dexa Fit and I got the scan done and the guy sat me down. He goes through all the metrics and he is like, yeah, this looks really good. This looks really good. Gave me a number. It was 18 and a half body fat. I was so upset, but I was so upset. I was like, in my head, I'm like, what? It's like, what? No one. But I did all this work and I'm lean, man. I'm lean and there's a chart that they have there, DEXA fit and it shows you whatever percentage you're falling on, this is what you're considered. I was considered lean, unquote lean, but there was the ultra lean, which is where I thought I was going to end up.
(00:16:29):
And I don't know, it sounds really stupid, but for me, because of all the work I had put in, I'm like, no, I should have been there. And so I was like, screw it. Obviously still you've made progress and I was happy with the progress, but I would a hundred percent, yeah, I wasn't a hundred percent satisfied. I wanted more because I'd already started and I knew I could do more because I had already put myself through the ringer in a way to get to the point that I was at. But I knew that my limitation was knowledge. I'm just not an expert in fitness. I didn't have the education for it in order to get to that extra or the next level. And so when I signed up for personal training, I remember I put that in there. I didn't give, and people think that when we got together, I told you, Hey Brock, I want a six pack.
(00:17:22):
I want this. I didn't do that. All I said was like, I want to be leaner and proportionate. I definitely want to look. It all is even. But I was like, I just want to be able to look my best and whatever that looks like at the end, great. That's what I put on there. And I explained that I had plateaued and I didn't know what to do to take me to the next level with my weightlifting. So that was all part of it. And then we started, and I will say the first two, three weeks were intense because it was a sudden rush of information, of understanding. I had for example, tempo as a simple way to look at tempo with the exercises at the gym I had never heard before. I never knew the coding, the matrix, I never knew that existed. Rest times I was spending a good two hours and 15 minutes in the gym sometimes because I was not timing myself between I would do a good lift and then I start bullshitting on Instagram or something, you know what I mean? Five minute rest periods. Yeah, five minute rest periods or talk to someone, whatever it is, and you don't think it's a big deal. And now that I've been a year this July or I guess a year at the end of June that we started working together, I'll see people at the gym and they'll be just sitting at the machine that you need and they're like on the phone and they're just chilling. I get so upset. He's like,
Brock Ashby (00:19:17):
Bro, I need that leg extension, man. I need people sit there with the leg extension and they're on their phone whilst their legs are going up and down. I'm like, Rob, whatcha doing? You're not even counting reps. Just it looks so cruisy
Ricardo Salazar (00:19:34):
And also you explain, hey, the rest times actually matter with how your body's responding. And so if you've taken that long of a rest between your exercises, you're not doing yourself any favours. I didn't know that. I didn't know that obviously before we started working together, but there was a lot to learn in a short amount of time. Tracking, just tracking is a skill that you have to build and initially it's a lot because no one is raised to track. Don't teach that in school. Obviously no one does it other than people that are committed and serious about their nutrition and their fitness and they understand why. It all kind of works together, but you have to learn how to do that and it can be overwhelming at times because there's a million different variations of what you can eat and how you can combine it and to try to accurately track. It takes practise, but I will say the easiest one to understand and tell people when they ask me what you've learned from Brock, what's something that I can do also, it's like easiest thing you can do is move. That's probably the one that is most accessible of the three I would say, is movement. So
Brock Ashby (00:21:03):
Out of the three, what do you mean? The other options?
Ricardo Salazar (00:21:07):
There's the nutrition, the weightlifting, and then movement, right? That's the three that I look at. And so I tell them the walking component of it movement is the absolute easiest one to understand and to start doing right now. Literally if you just sit on the couch all day or on your rest days, on the weekends or after you get home from work, take a 30 minute, 45 minute walk and that's already going to get you to a better place than where you are right now. I promise you. If you just start with that one and then he's like, if you can build, because something I learned just from talking to friends and stuff, and some of them do track on their Apple watches or whatnot to them, 10,000 is mind blowing. They're like, no, I just can't get to 10,000. They're like, most, I can hit a six to 7,000. And to me, I'm like, I know mine's pretty intense just because of the dog and whatnot. I was like, dude, I have 20 5K, 20 2K every day, so you can definitely get to 10. I promise you a 10,000 or 10,000 step a day goal is maybe two good long walks a day, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and then all the in between walking that you do just for a normal
Brock Ashby (00:22:26):
Getting up, getting done.
Ricardo Salazar (00:22:28):
Yeah. Yeah, you can definitely hit it, but that's the first one I tell 'em. And then if you want to get into nutrition, okay, I was like, I will explain everything that I've learned, but that one is a heavier one.
Brock Ashby (00:22:39):
Yeah, that's much. Yeah, and just to jump in on that with movement, I'm the same with someone that's coming on board. I'm like, that's the easiest thing to do. That's the lowest hanging fruit. It's so simple. I actually posted about it this morning on my Instagram and I talked about doing what you can when you can just at all times, but one of the biggest things you can do is a simple non-negotiable you make to yourself, I'm going to take the stairs instead of taking the elevator or when I take the escalator, instead of just standing there and waiting to get my ride to the top, I could walk as well or I'm going to get off the bus a bit earlier and walk, I don't know, an extra 400 to a thousand metres or in the weekend instead of I put this in my caption this morning instead of sitting down and enjoying a coffee, we'll get a takeaway and we'll go for a walk on the weekend.
(00:23:31):
My wife and I woke up and we just went for a walk. We got a coffee and we walked for an hour. I got back and that was like 8,000 steps down and I was like, man, what else are you going to do on the weekend? Obviously I don't kids at the moment, you don't have kids, you have a dog, so you have more motivation to walk, but it's one of the easiest things to do. But I think people, obviously people love extremes as well, so they're like, what can I do to, I need to go keto or I need to be carnival, so I'm doing something super extreme. People are attracted to that, but also walking, it's not sexy. It's not like it's crazy. Whoa man, did you go for a walk this week? Man, whoa, so what man, my granddad goes for a walk, but it's like in the research, it's super clear your activity levels burns more calories than your training.
(00:24:27):
It's the biggest factor that you can change, and people hate hearing that because they're like, I'm not losing weight. I'm training seven times a week. And I'm like, well, maybe if you trained even three or four but went for an hour walk every day, you'd probably get better fat loss results in terms of it being easier to create a calorie deficit. Building muscle is different, but in terms of just moving and even being healthier or just burning more calories throughout the week, which is most people's goal because we consume so much with food and drink and whatever we do, it's just the easiest thing to do. And the research says as we get older, people often blame, oh, I'm getting older, my metabolism's slowing down and all that kind of stuff. Yes, our testosterone drops off, all that kind of stuff, but something that happens is we move less and it's so easy to see when you look at a kid, we were looking at a kid last night walking back from doing our groceries.
(00:25:18):
He's just walking and hitting his head and his sister was just jumping with two legs, jumping down the road, and then you look at the adults, they're just walking as slow as possible, dragging themselves naturally. Obviously we get beat down by life and all that kind of stuff too, but as we get older, we just tend to move less. If you're at a party and there's kids like say a fifth birthday party, the kids are out there playing and all that and the adults are just standing around or sitting down drinking naturally, our life decisions just we move less so often it's not our metabolism. If we were older and we still had that same initiative like, oh, I need to walk as much, people would probably get better results, but it's such a key thing to understand and obviously you understand that now you are racking up heaps of steps and you're staying lean all year round after getting your initial fat loss results that we achieved, which is amazing. Now you're staying lean because your activity level is so high and you're having a decent amount of calories too,
Ricardo Salazar (00:26:21):
Right? Yeah, and I tell that to my friends all the time. That was friends with me on Instagram and I have a really small group of people, just actual people that I know, so it's not like I have all these thousands of people, just my friends, they saw the calorie deficit process and some of them freaked out. They couldn't believe that a, I was getting that lean because I was already relatively lean, but not lean, lean when we started. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:26:56):
You were. Yeah, I remember seeing you. I was like, man, this guy's like you had a flat stomach. It wasn't like you were overweight or anything. It was like if someone saw you on the beach or something, they'd be like, oh yeah, this guy looks decent.
Ricardo Salazar (00:27:09):
And that's where we started and then 22 pounds later is where we ended in terms when we finally stopped the weight loss, and that was at the end of September because even though our cut was only from July to end of August, we were doing the gradual reverse dieting, essentially going back trying to find the new maintenance, and so I was still losing a little bit up until finally at the end of December when we hit that 2,600 calorie range that the weight loss stopped. And so at that point, that was the end of all the weight loss, and that was 22 pounds on top of what I had already started back in July of 2020 overall. So what's
Brock Ashby (00:27:57):
The total number that you've lost from that time to now you're
Ricardo Salazar (00:28:00):
Looking at about 50 to 52 pounds of total weight loss.
Brock Ashby (00:28:06):
That's amazing, man, that's amazing.
Ricardo Salazar (00:28:08):
From July, 2020 until September of 2021, and from there on out, the whole goal was to build slowly build and stay at maintenance. And so now people see, it's funny because again, those two months of the deficit of the cut, some friends are freaking out because I was really trimmed. I was skinny. I was skinny. But that was the whole point was to get to, I
Brock Ashby (00:28:37):
Would say you were lean. Sorry to jump in. I would say you were lean. There's a difference between skinny and lean and I would call you lean or shredded if you want to use that word. If you look at someone that's skinny, that was the old us going doing extreme things where we had no idea, we weren't really training that hard. We just not heats and muscle mass. We were just kind of skinny. You were definitely holding some decent muscle mass. You were training well, you would lean.
Ricardo Salazar (00:29:02):
Exactly. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I guess it's just the nomenclature that you hear from, I guess your friends and family and stuff that they're just like, oh my gosh, look. I'm like, yeah, I know, but I told them there's a,
Brock Ashby (00:29:12):
You look sick.
Ricardo Salazar (00:29:14):
Yeah, there's a big picture here. What you're looking at right now is not even the halfway point. This is almost in a way kind of just a starting point. This is purely for a specific goal. That's a short period of time. The big picture is going to take a lot longer because that's something that I've learned through the programme. You're not going to build muscle and look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in a year, and that's not even what I want for myself obviously, but to build muscle and to really try to put it on without changing your composition kind of drastically, it's going to take a long time. And so that's what I would remind them. Just trust me, there's a big picture here. I don't want to stay in this deficit any longer than you like.
Brock Ashby (00:30:04):
Yeah,
Ricardo Salazar (00:30:05):
I'm not having a great time. It's hard. You know what I mean? So trust, and now it's funny. My friends are making fun of me for how much I eat when we go eat. I'm like, yeah, I told You'all I would get to this point, but part of the reason, again, with movement, I am so active now and I purposely do it because I want to be able to comfortably enjoy food, enjoy my time out with friends, and I don't want to have to be worrying too much because I plan everything. I'm a pretty structured guy too. So you're a numbers
Brock Ashby (00:30:43):
Guy, you're a finance guy.
Ricardo Salazar (00:30:45):
So I know it was like, oh yeah, someone's birthday's on Saturday. I got this. I'll bank a little bit on Thursday, Friday, some extra movement there. I'm set for Saturday and I have no issue. I go out and I eat more than they do and they freak out. I'm like, yeah, but it's because I've understood how this all works. It's all connected and I can plan without it being stressful, without it being feeling like it's overbearing relatively easy. Now, I would say you always have to work on it, but it's nothing like before where the less, more you worry about a birthday party, the more you worry about a holiday because you freak out. You're like, oh my gosh, I'm making progress, but I'm going to screw it up if I have some of that pie. And it's like, no, no, you're not going to screw it up if you eat some of the pie. You need to know how it all connects and you can work accordingly.
Brock Ashby (00:31:41):
But that's where people, I guess, without the knowledge that you have and people that don't prioritise understanding calories or how much you need to consume or what phase you should be at in a deficit or maintenance, if you don't understand that, it's all guesswork. And that's why it's scary. Fear is literally just the unknown. You don't know what's going on, so you're scared or you don't know what to do, so you become scared or you become anxious, however you want to word it, it becomes scary. So if you see a pie and you're like, oh, no, I don't know what to do now. So it's like if I have it, it's like what do I do? So it's like that knowledge gap that you've filled with understanding calories, understanding flexible dieting, understanding the relationship between movement, that is literally a saviour. And that's why for me, I'm always first to encourage people to track their food, even if they combat my opinion.
(00:32:33):
I try and be like, Hey man, just do this because it's not forever. It's literally just an understanding. If you tracked just for a month, you would understand and then that knowledge would help you navigate through that social situation where there's a pie and you're like, what do I do? Then at least you go, okay, if I have a slice of pie that might be, I don't know, 300 to 500 calories, depending what pie it is, at least you have a general guess. But if you have no idea, then you'll probably just be like, I don't eat pie, so I can't do that. Or Oh, no, I'm just not going to have it. Where having it would lead to you having a better time. And you could also put it into context of your goals. Absolutely, yeah. And that's where your, I guess reaping the benefits where you're going out with your friends and all that and you're eating a truckload to them, and you're probably one of the leanest there or probably got the most muscle there or the most fitness person there.
(00:33:27):
I put that in quotation marks if you can't see it. But once you understand it, it all gets put into context. And one thing I'll add to that is you understood it from the get go. The calorie deficit is not your whole life. It's just a certain period of time. It's kind of like when you're being a tight as when you're saving for a house, you're just saving for a house and being a tight as for that little bit. But once you buy that house and everything's, then you can be a bit more generous with your spending and stuff. But there's certain periods of your life where you need to be frugal with your calories. We got pretty low, I can't remember how low maybe it was. We started 1800, 1600 in
Ricardo Salazar (00:34:13):
July. We did 2000 a day, and then in August we did 1800.
Brock Ashby (00:34:19):
Yeah, yeah. I remember we went pretty low. For someone as active as you and I can see where people could be worried, where you're being very conscious with your calories and you're still walking a lot, you're looking leaner, much leaner than before. And people will be like, well, what are you doing? But it's just for a certain period of time and now you are eating, what's that, 800 calories more and you're maintaining weight, and that's a couple meals right there. A calorie deficit isn't forever, but once again, if you go back to that person that doesn't know anything, they might think if you're on 1800 calories to get this lean, you have to eat 800 calories for the rest of your life to stay that lean, to keep that body. And that's one thing that I know people think like, oh, if I'm eating like this, I have to maintain this to stay like this. But that's completely false. You are, if not leaner than you were before or same leanness, but you're eating way more. This knowledge thing is, it's such a saviour.
Ricardo Salazar (00:35:19):
Absolutely. And I think when I share my progress pretty often with my friends on Instagram and it does blow their mind because now that we've been out of the deficit for a while and we've just focused on a slow build in maintenance, they see that I even look I'm in better shape than I even was fall of last year, even at the beginning of this year. And I'm a really lean guy. I'm I'm five 10, I not as tall as you are, but I'm a 28 waist and I've maintained that. You can see how shredded I am when I'm posting my fitness pictures and stuff and I'm actually growing and they go out with me, they see that I enjoy the same foods they do, they see how much I eat and they can't, it still doesn't make sense I think to a lot of people. When I was with my brother, I went to go visit my brother a few months ago, my brother and my family and my mom, and we would go out to eat. I ordered all this food and I've gotten this now more than once with waiters are like, that's a lot of food. I'm like, yeah, no, I don't.
(00:36:37):
And just bring it. Trust me, it's going to get me. And then my brother's just sittings, how can you eat that much? I'm a really active guy and I actually need it if I don't eat this much. And if I don't do it, I'm doing myself a disservice because I'm trying to build, I'm going to the gym and I'm really active visit. I'm just moving all the time. I'm walking a lot, so I need to keep up with it. And if I don't, there've been days and I talked about it with you that I wasn't feeling it or I just wasn't that hungry, whatever. And I would skip. Sure enough, I weigh myself two days later, I'm lost weight. And I was like, that's not the point of where I'm at and I'm trying to build. And what I was mentioning to you before we started recording was there's a lot of, there's everyone comes from to this to the point of trying to learn about fitness and grow, and either when I say grow, I just mean in terms of actually getting to know how this all works.
(00:37:40):
Understanding, understanding. We all come from it from a different angle in terms of we bring our own knowledge or in a lot of cases, misinformation, lack of knowledge to lack of knowledge to trying to better ourselves. And for me, and what I was telling you is that I didn't know a lot in terms of, I wasn't reading fitness magazines or anything like that, but I heard from a lot of movie stars that would be put through the grind to get super lean for a role. What they did. And there's been all kinds of different, for example, I was talking to you about Daniel Craig when he was in the Bond movie, when he was in Casino Royal, there was that scene where comes out the ocean and everyone at the time was like, look, he's super jacked, and it's like a 10, 15 second kind of just focus on like, look, James Bond's hot now.
(00:38:40):
You know what I mean? And they were like jacked. And so they asked him, what did you do? And I was telling you, one of the things that I remember him saying, this is 12 years ago, and so it stuck in my head was that he did not eat carbs after 9:00 PM And so for someone like me that doesn't know anything about fitness 12 years ago, you associate not just carbs with something negative like, oh man, carbs are bad, but not only are they bad, especially bad if you eat 'em after 9:00 PM because apparently that's just going to tank your entire body. So that goes into my head when when she was in that movie, Dreamgirls, she got real thin for that roll. There was a thing circulating for a while, the Beyonce diet. She did some lemon water, cayenne pepper, maple syrup drink thing in the morning and she's like, yep, that's what I did every morning. And then I think she talked about other stuff that she did, and so people thought, okay, I need to have the lemon water, cayenne pepper, maple syrup,
Brock Ashby (00:39:41):
Which sounds disgusting far, which
Ricardo Salazar (00:39:43):
Sounds absolutely disgusting. And look, I can get them like her. A lot of the Marvel guys like Chris Pratt, he had his famous moment in the first Guardians of the Galaxy where they do a sort of 360 sort of thing of his abs. He's super shredded and especially made a big deal out of Chris Pratt because he was kind of like a thicker guy. Bigger guy when he was in out other shows was at Parks and Rec, right? And so he went from that to six pack dude and gardens. They're like, how did you do it? And so he would talk about, oh man, well I have to eat. I couldn't eat normal food. I had to eat this kind of food. He was put through a calorie deficit. That's what they did. They put him through a pretty aggressive one in a short period of time so he could get in shape for his role.
(00:40:30):
Same thing with Paul Rudd when he was an admin. There's a scene where they show his six pack and they talk to Paul Rudd. He's like, yeah, you basically can't eat anything fun. It's miserable. So they're framing it in a really negative way and me not knowing anything, I hear that. You know what I mean? And I think the only way that I can look like that I have to basically be miserable, and that's not true. That's not true. Now I know that now that I'm on the other side of that, I'm like, no, look at me now. Maybe I don't look like them. I don't know, but I'm in really good shape and I'm not miserable
Brock Ashby (00:41:13):
Like 100%. Even just the rock. I've seen interviews and YouTubes of him sitting down with his eight meals a day and he's a different story because he's just a giant, I don't know how tall he is and how much he weighs, but he's a giant. I'm sure he needs to eat a lot, but he's got this super, sorry man, lemme just cancel that. It's my dad. He's trying to call me. Come on dad. He's sitting there with 10 meals and so all of a sudden, and they're not fitness guys, so you have to give them a bit of leeway. They're just doing what they're being told. They're not personal trainers, but once again, the ideas coming out that you have to eat to a certain schedule. You have to have chicken, you have to have lean bison, you have to have, what's it over in America?
(00:42:11):
There's a fish, is it called Tapia Tap? I don't know. It's called something. Yeah, tilapia. Yeah. It's like a real lean, apparently quite bland white fish that's really low in calories. You have to have that with greens, and if you have carbs, it's only this much. You have to have this tiny thing. It's like steam broccoli and even Wolverine, he's got a tonne of interviews talking about how he'd wake up at 4:00 AM and eat, have a protein shake and peanut butter, and then go back to sleep and it's this big chore, and these guys, sure, they look amazing, but it's like if you're just taking that on, it almost seems impossible to achieve. And then I think that's why people give up. They see these interviews because millions of people are seeing these and they see them in the movies. They're like, wow, I can never look like that, but that's why I'm so big on education, and obviously I don't have the reach that these superstars do.
(00:43:07):
I'm trying my best to put all the content out, but if people understood that it doesn't have to be this crazy, you need to wake up at 4:00 AM to get jacked and eat or you can't eat carbs after 9:00 PM I did the same thing. I would never eat carbs after duck, the sun goes down. It's like this magical carbs have just turned into this fat storage machine. I'm going to blow up. I never did it, never did it for years. Even when I was an early personal trainer, there's misinformation out there and I would be telling my clients, don't do that. And even knees over toes, don't put your knees over your toes. I'd be saying that to my clients because that's literally what we learned as personal trainers. There's so much misinformation out there, and I know it's hard to filter what's true and what's not, but that's why I focus on pushing so much information that I know is backed by evidence and by research and by scientists and also by practise of me using it with clients that it's not impossible because it's literally disempowering.
(00:44:08):
It makes you feel like you can't do anything. The rocks probably and Wolverine and all that aren't talking about physical activity levels or creating a calorie deficit and stuff like that. And if we did know it would make such a big impact and just people getting started all they need to do. I used to read fitness magazines. I was telling you before we jumped on and actually started recording this that I would read, and I've talked about this before. I used to work this retail job that I just did to get by and I'd sit there on the iPad while no one was in the store. I was probably meant to be doing stock take or whatever, but I wasn't, I was sitting there researching best workout or I would go on simply shredded.com, which is this website, which is where all these fitness models would have interviews, and I'd just written ones and I would read their diets and I'd read their workout plans and they'd go for two hours long, so I'd be doing them straight after I finished work, screenshot, bang, there's me doing these massive workouts, eating so restricted, and I would just look the same if not even as if I'm training these guys.
(00:45:20):
And it was just like I would just try and follow their thing, what they were doing. Obviously they're not talking about the steroids that they're on, but I'm just following their thing and I'm getting so discouraged. I'm like, man, what else can I do? I would just get nowhere.
Ricardo Salazar (00:45:38):
So my cousin's girlfriend texted me this weekend and she was telling me she's about to start sort of exercise nutrition plan. And she was like, what tips do you have? And instead of me saying specific things like, oh, this is how I do my macros. I kept it really kind of big picture. I was like, look, one of the most important things you can do for yourself is to educate yourself, and it's not going to learn overnight, but if you really dig in, and I think with the programme when we started personal training, I could have been, I think the type of client that simply just followed what you said to a TI. You gave me the workouts, I would do. You told me you gave the macros. I would follow through with that, but I think if you really want to be successful, you need to educate yourself and dive in.
(00:46:34):
You can provide, and you do provide all the resources. You have all these videos, you have tonne of stuff out there, but can't force any one of your clients to actually go through 'em. That then is on you, right? You are doing yourself. I think a disservice if you don't really try to do a deep dive and start to soak in all of, and it takes a while because there's a lot of information to learn, but it is incredibly liberating, and that's something that I was mentioning before we started recording was that me a layman not knowing about fitness comes in. I have all these ideas in my head and a lot of them, like I said, have negative connotations on things like carbs or whatever. And so you're thinking, okay, once we start this, he's probably going to, I can't eat sugar for example, where I'm not going to be able to dairies out because, and that's something that you'll hear. Some people are like, oh, I cut out dairy for two weeks. If I want to lose weight and I drop a couple pounds, it's not the dairy that was probably making them whatever, hold onto the weight. It's maybe the amount of calories that you were eating that happened to be dairy related.
Brock Ashby (00:47:52):
Yeah, maybe it's the Ben and Jerry's involved with the dairy
Ricardo Salazar (00:47:58):
And people are like, oh, you take a huge glass of milk before bed Milk is great. I drink milk every single day. But you have to understand it's a very nutritious liquid. You know what I mean? It has protein, carbs, and fat in it, but if you don't know that you can blame all dairies making me fat. D is not making you fat, and so it's learning that, hey, all this sort of stuff that it's a lot of noise. You basically come in when you don't know anything about fitness, there's a lot of noise in your head, and you don't know who to believe or what to believe, and once you educate yourself and you really go in, to me, it relieved a lot of stress, and it was like, you're free from the shackles of misinformation. You understand how it all works, and you're like, oh. And it becomes way less stressful, at least to me, to approach everything from what I eat to how I move to my workouts. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:49:00):
Well, it's changing the quality of your life. It's just understanding. I wish everyone had the same mindset as you even, you're one of my clients, but a tonne of my clients sign up and I know that they're not watching the educational videos. I literally have over five and a half, six hours of education. Me standing in front of this guy, the whiteboard going, this is this, dah, dah, dah. There's simple videos I have. There's one called Training Myth busting. There's 10 points. There's literally 10 points that I just bust, like myths, bang. If you just watch that, then yeah, like you said, you'd be free from the shackles of misinformation, but it's having that mindset, having that open mind to be like, okay, I don't know everything, so let's just watch even a video a day. If you did that over one month, two months, you'd get through, I don't know, maybe a quarter, maybe a half of the videos I have for you to understand and you would be free.
(00:49:59):
For example, I thought when I was reading all the articles while people weren't coming into the retail store, while I was meant to be selling flip flops, I would be reading about intermittent fasting, and I was like, oh, man, I read this thing called the Warrior Diet, and there was all this stuff on there, and I was like, I'm doing the Warrior Diet four hours eating 20 hours fasting. So that's literally one meal a day, and I was going so hard. I would literally starve myself all day through that job that I didn't like as well. So I was starving thinking about food all day, and I didn't enjoy my job. I would go to training on a black coffee, no food, and this is about 4:00 PM and I'd get through my workout. I don't know how I did it these days. I really don't know. I think I just had to, the determination of a warrior, I would get through the session. I would get home and I'd literally just gorge. I would just eat everything and anything.
(00:50:56):
I didn't know what a calorie was then I was kind of aware of it, but I literally thought that this was the thing, and I would just eat as much as I can, and then my stomach would literally be so sore. I wouldn't do anything for the rest of the day, and then I'd just go to sleep and wake up and then just do it all over again, starve myself all day, four hours. And I thought this was the thing. This is the thing that gets you lean. This is what gets you strong. They were talking about growth hormone and all this kind of stuff. There's so many things out there to believe. It's hard to understand, but once I guess you get a hold of the right information, I thought I was educating myself. That's the thing. There's so many things to educate yourself on. You don't know if it's right or wrong. How do you determine that? So I was trying it all, and then after two or three months, I would just get discouraged, but at least I was experimenting. But that's why as I was saying this, I just put out the education there for people to understand so they don't have to spend three months starving themselves, getting no results, and then being like, oh, well that doesn't work. If you just get the answer straight away, it's so much easier.
Ricardo Salazar (00:52:01):
And I think for me, what really worked out nicely is that my background is finance. And what I thought was the most kind of a welcome surprise to the whole fitness world was how data-driven. So much of it is to me because data, I can do data, and it turns out that if you not just tracking food, which is huge, and all the way mathematically, it all worked out and all that made total sense to me. I was like, oh yeah, maybe macros are just, you have these limits and you have these goals that you have and the value of everything. I mean, all of that I was sending you, if you remember, I don't if you remember when we first started out, I was sending you all these spreadsheets I was working on. I was like, look, broccoli what I do. You're like, all right, cool, dude, just keep at it.
Brock Ashby (00:52:56):
Yeah, you made your own formulas and things to calculate it all. Yeah.
Ricardo Salazar (00:53:00):
I was like, yeah, I can get the shit out this stuff right now. So I was like, it was fun for me. But what made a lot of sense was instead of it being some sort of secret or you have some, you're a wizard with, it turns out so much of this, if you just have good data, you can build on it and learn what you're doing. So I would not just track my food, food, my steps, my little Fitbit, I track my weight. There are all these things that once you start tracking and you have the data, because what you have to learn, that's really important during this whole process is about yourself. Because you, when you start fitness, you actually don't know as much about yourself as you think you do. I didn't didn't know how much I was consuming in a day.
Brock Ashby (00:53:49):
Oh, yeah.
Ricardo Salazar (00:53:50):
I didn't know how much I was actually walking in a day. Weight is probably the only thing that people do track here and there. But
Brock Ashby (00:53:59):
Yeah, tracking it without context though, without context of knowing what influences your weight. So you're weighing different weights or you're gaining weight, you're losing weight, but you have no idea why.
Ricardo Salazar (00:54:10):
Exactly. Exactly. And so once you start, all you're doing is documenting your behaviour and you're documenting your habits and it all ties together and you're like, oh, now I know why, what's happening? And that again, is liberating. And for me, coming from a finance background, it was just a very sort of natural marriage of, yeah, that's what we do in finance. We need to look at what's actually happened, what we think might happen if we do this. You know what I mean? So it all made sense. And my finance professor, my favourite one in college, she always said there were fundamentals that we had to learn in corporate finance, but she said, every single thing, you always have to use the phrase, it depends, because she would give us all these scenarios, and she's like, if you want to get to a certain outcome, it depends on X, Y, and Z.
(00:55:03):
There's all these influence. And that also makes sense with respect to what people want to get out of fitness, because not everyone wants to look like me. I'm a specific goal and angle that I'm coming from, but maybe someone doesn't want to be as lean as I do, but they just want to grow. Okay. There's a process and a path for you, and as long as you're sharing the same fundamental knowledge, you know how to get there. Everything about fitness is influenced by what people's personal goals are. Not everyone's goal will going to be mine. Contextual. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:55:41):
Yeah. It's contextual. Yeah. And that's what I've learned as well as I've, so I originally went online as a personal trainer. I went online so I could free myself up to educate myself because I was like, well, I was looking at all the great personal trainers that I was aware of, and I was like, well, they're there because they're super smart. So I was like, if I can somehow build an online following and build an online business, then that I don't have to be face-to-face training, then it'll free up my time. Not so I can just sit around and be like, oh, cool, I'm training people, but I'm sitting on my ass. I was like, I can really educate myself and that's where I can help people like you that are so attached to data and education that it frees you and helps you get great results.
(00:56:19):
So I would start learning that kind of education of things to really help, I guess you and other people, because once you have that education, it's like, yeah, you can really start getting results. But the scientists that I was learning from would always come from, it depends. It depends. That's a very scientist answer. And it kind of pisses you off. Like what does it depend on, man? I just want an answer. Do I eat an apple for breakfast or do I eat a protein shake? Oh, it depends. It's like, well, what does it depend on? And it frustrates people because even when I do Q and As on my Insta stories, people are like, what's better barbell versus dumbbell? And I'm like, it depends for what if you're trying to get really strong at barbell because it can handle more weight, but if you're trying to work on stabilisation of the muscles, then go for dumbbells.
(00:57:16):
So there's so much context with everything, and that's why I hate this kind of keto versus vegan. What's better or this versus that? What's this? What's that? It's so black and white. The only black and white thing that I'm aware of in fitness is more like calorie deficit for fat loss, calorie surplus, mobility muscle. These are principles that are black and white, but there's so much context, and that's why education helps, because it helps give you insight of what to do in that context. Because that whole, it depends thing is frustrating, especially when you don't know when you have no education, you want black and whites, how you learn. I learn that way too. If someone says to me for my business, do this and you'll get this, then I can easily do that. But then if I'm like, what should I do next? And they're like, well, it depends.
(00:58:04):
I'm like, I've got to think for myself. So that's where the education, because you can only generate ideas that your education provides you. You can't think of things that you don't know. You know what I mean? So that's where education helps that whole, it depends thing. That's where having a coach helps. And now you are getting to a place with the education that you have where you can go, oh, it depends because of this, because of that. And so you're starting to generate that. But when you're early on, I think having a coach helps. It gives you context of that. It depends answer. Yeah,
Ricardo Salazar (00:58:35):
You anchor yourself in the knowledge of the coach because you yourself are just kind of freaking out like, oh, what if I'm going to make a mistake and I'm going to screw it all up? And it's interesting though. You do see in my conversations just with people that I know, when you give them same thing, when you give 'em an it depends answer, it's so unsatisfying to them because they're like, I just want to do what you did. I'm like, but yeah, but we're coming from different, you're at a different place than I am. And it's just, again, it depends. If you were in my height, you were at my same kind of body composition. If you were moving as much as I was from where we started, then probably you could get the same sort of result if you did sort of exactly what I did.
(00:59:27):
But again, you can't just transfer. There's not just a template. This is what Ricardo did. It's going to work for all of you. It's all different. It's all different. I mean, there's principles, of course. I went through a calorie deficit, same principle that a lot of these movie stars get put through what they're talking about when they were talking about how miserable their diet was, they were being put through a calorie deficit and training really hard. That part is like, yeah, that is black and white, but if they're looking for specific results, there's not a clear, the path that you take is going to be maybe similar to the one I took, but it's not going to look exactly the same. And you know what? You look better than I do. You may look, I don't know, can't, there's no guarantee that it's going to be exactly the same outcome because we're all coming from, we're different body types too. I don't know. It's hard. But that's a lot of if this, then that. And that's not a satisfying answer for a lot of people,
Brock Ashby (01:00:33):
Man. So right when I answer, it depends. And give them this answer of context. They kind of just drop it. They're like, okay, cool. Okay, cool. Because it's annoying. Like you say, it's not a black and white. There's so much context. Even myself, my training people ask, oh, can what's your programme? Can I do your programme? Or how do you train? And this isn't really like, it depends, but it's like this is what works for me and what works for you could be completely different. That's why I enjoy personalised programmes like one-to-One coaching. I make a programme exactly for you how we first started. But for example, for I guess more generic programmes built by Brock or the 16 week mail guide that I offer, that's why I provide the education because it's like, well, yes, there's a programme to follow, but there's also context in between.
(01:01:27):
My body responds really well to heavy weights. I respond really well to anywhere between two to eight reps, and I really thrive there and I feel like I get great results there. And when I do higher reps, I still enjoy it. Well, not as much as doing less reps, then I get to rest more. But that doesn't work as well for me. But I have a friend, for example, who doesn't lifting heavy. His structure is a lot. If you look at him, he looks more lean like a football player, soccer, and he has his bones just look smaller. We're the same height, but his frame is smaller. So you can tell that his build is probably potentially built less for dealing with heavier weights. And so he pushes up volume. So he uses volume as a driver for hypertrophy, and that works for him. But if you look at me, and especially if you see my genetics, I'm Maori, I'm indigenous to New Zealand, they're quite thick boned people.
(01:02:26):
My bone density is really heavy and I respond really well to heavy weights, and my frame kind of looks like it can handle it as well. So it depends. If you follow my programme, are you going to get the same results? Maybe, maybe not. But I really thrive on that. I have a lot of type two muscle fibres. I'm quite explosive where my friend, he's more of a type one muscle fibre, which is more strength, endurance, longer reps, kind of working with more oxygen where mine's more a TP energy system, which is I guess more explosive to make it simple. There's so much context, but what you've been able to generate with this education is your own context. And as you continue to grow in education, it'll only get more and more accurate. And that's the beauty of focusing on education, but also you're putting in the hard work you're applying it to, and that's the only way to get the feedback.
(01:03:18):
Also, the other side where people are just like scientists, oh, this is the perfect rep range. This is the optimal thing you should do. You should do this exercise, but only three reps and you should rest. And they get too analytical, but they're not applying everything you are putting in the effort, which is very clear to see in your results. One thing that I want to ask you is, and you may have touched on it, but what did you find the hardest about achieving your transformation overall? I know this is quite hard, but what was your biggest obstacle that when you finally overcame it, it was like, ah, or that led to the most results? It might be a few things, but if you can kind of whittle it down to a smaller number, what was a big struggle? Because a lot of people find struggles when they're say going for fat loss, it's sugar, it's tracking calories. Oh, I could never eat like that. I live with my mom, so she cooks and it's impossible. What did you find really hard?
Ricardo Salazar (01:04:16):
Yeah, I would say, I mean other than connecting the dots, the big picture, all the different aspects of understanding the workouts, nutrition, all of it. That was its own huge challenge, kind of like a crash course. And the thing is, we started personal training and it's like day one's already, and you have all this stuff to catch. You already feel like, I felt like I was behind when I started on our first day, I already felt like, man, I'm super behind because there's a million things to keep track of and I don't know how it all fits. So I mean that in and of itself was a big challenge, but I think with the nutrition, you don't realise, I guess, how loaded different foods are with certain things that you were used to just eating all the time. And when you're on a calorie deficit, the hardest I think was fat because protein is high.
(01:05:27):
And so everyone, I think the exception of some people be that don't eat meat, it's not that hard to hit your protein, even if it's really high. I'm half Mexican, half South American, but Mexicans especially eat a lot of protein. I mean, they use a lot of meat in Mexican, lot of meat. So protein didn't worry me. I was like, oh yeah, I can hit protein. Carbs were a little bit limited, not too bad. Everyone loves carbs, so that's not an issue. Fat though was pretty low, relatively, you know what I mean? And I didn't know how high fat content a lot of foods have, and that's what bummed me out initially. Like, man, I think I had what, 58 grammes of fat I think was in my, or even less than that now. I can't remember. I don't remember wrong. It's somewhere there. I'm sure I have it, but it was pretty tight.
(01:06:22):
It was pretty tight. And there's so many things that you're used to using oil in that I was like, man, I can't do that now. Dressings people when they tell me, oh, I'm keeping it light. I'm eating a salad. And then they drown it and dressing got bad news for you. Yeah, man, this salad's healthy, right? Yeah. It's like that vinegar's going to kill you, man, because at least the plant that you have, because it's such an 800 calorie salad, it's long because that dressing is mostly oil and it has only little bit of pere. So yeah, I did struggle initially, and I was kind of annoyed as like, man, everything that I was used to eating, I mean, stuff I thought was healthy. I had the full fat yoghourt, the full fat milk, so I had to learn how to keep things tight to get through the deficit.
(01:07:18):
But I mean, within weeks, I got so good at it that I had fat left over At the end of the night, I had to hit my fat. So it wasn't like I struggled with it for weeks and weeks. It was like the first two weeks I was like, man, hummus, come on. The tahini and the olive oil. Everyone's like, hummus is great. And it is not. Again, there's no stigma on any one food, but you don't know the value you of food in terms of the macro values of it. And you learn that's what you have to learn. And then you have to make adjustments only because I was in a calorie deficit. So certain macros were lowered to get through it, but once we got through it, it's not an issue anymore, obviously. But there was a point, I think three or four weeks into our cut, like I said, I got really good. I'd always reserve fat basically. So I switched zero fat yoghourt and low fat milk because I wanted to save some fat for some fun stuff. Tiny bit of fun stuff, right?
Brock Ashby (01:08:27):
Yeah. That's how I, yeah, that's how I like to approach it too. I would rather have leftover, because I feel like dinner is such a rewarding meal. You finish work, you often eat dinner with people, whether you are rooming or whether you are with family or whatever environment you are in. Often I find, well, just in my life, breakfast and lunches usually on my own, but I don't live, I don't work in a public workspace. I work for myself, but I find dinner is a great time to enjoy those foods because it's with people and it's enjoyable. And often they'll have, not everyone's on a fitness journey, so they'll often have higher calorie foods and then you don't have to feel bummed that you can't have any. I'd rather load early in the day, protein rich and maybe kind of carb or even low carb.
(01:09:21):
I like to jack up protein breakfast and lunch so that in dinner, fats and carbs are almost endless. So you're like, yep, I'll have sour cream. Yep, I'll have a couple of wraps. It's more enjoyable. I definitely structuring that way. But to come to your point, calorie tracking is a big awareness thing. Like I said earlier in the podcast that people just did it for a month, they would understand, man, my fats through the roof. I used to eat granola every morning with milk and man granola, and this isn't demonising granola or saying it's a bad food, but it's full of fat, man. There's seeds in it, they put yeah, nuts in it. So you have almonds, cashews, there's pumpkin seeds in it, there's sesame seeds, and then they put honey all through it too, and there's a lot of oats in there and even dried fruit and stuff.
(01:10:09):
So the carbs are quite high too, so you just have to be aware of it. I thought, oh man, it's healthy. I'm having granola for breakfast. Of course that's going to be good. And yes, it may work in a diet now, but people think that that's going to be a low calorie meal when it's actually pretty jacked up with calories, man, you have a bowl of granola, especially me, I like a decent sized one that's like a thousand calories gone, man, I'll put in some full fat milk, a big bowl of granola. I'm like, wow, damn.
Ricardo Salazar (01:10:35):
The Trader Joe's has this, I forget what the name of it, but it's like a coconut granola thing that they have. And Trader Joe's has a lot of their own specialty products that they sell, and that was my healthy snack. And when I started tracking, because at the office, when I would go into the office, I always had snacks readily available. And so I'm tracking, this is during our cut, and I had to go into the office and I was like, oh, man, I'm hungry and whatever. Let me pull out that granola. And I turned around, I'm like, holy shit. It was like 335 calories for a serving, and the serving wasn't
Brock Ashby (01:11:16):
Like 20 grammes.
Ricardo Salazar (01:11:18):
Yeah, I was like, oh, A lot of it was just fat. It was the coconut oil that they used in it and then all the seeds and everything else that was going in. And just at the time, it didn't work well for me in the cut phase, but now I still eat it. I just watch portions. Even during the cut one of the days, I purposely kept it super, super tight and clean and at the end of the night, it was like during the week, I ran over to McDonald's and I got a Big Mac and it totally worked in the plan. There was no issue with it at all because I learned, I was like, you know what? I'm going to engineer it in a way that I want to at least have stuff that is normal, normal during my cut to remember, Hey, you'll get there.
(01:12:10):
You'll get out of this thing and look, you're still even able to do it within a more restricted nutritional plan. That's short term. So yeah, I wish people that haven't really maybe are still learning about this could see how much and the sort of stuff that I eat now, and I don't eat it every day. Obviously I'm not going out and having these huge feasts every day. I mean, who has the budget and time for that anyway, but I promise you all, I'm keeping lean. I've only gained, that was part of the plan, right? Only a couple pounds since beginning of the year. It's been a slow build, but I've maintained my body composition, the leanness that I want to maintain, and I've been doing that through the workouts, the movement, but I'm eating, I'm eating and I'm eating good food. I've been travelling too.
(01:13:04):
I went to Mexico City. You saw that I was going to town, but I was also keeping really active. And so there's light at the end of the tunnel, and I think a lot of the times the focus is on the deficit part and how hard it is, and I think a lot of people that haven't been through it, they think we spend our entire lives in a deficit and just being miserable. And it's like, no, no, no. I promise you it gets a lot better. It's just a short term. And again, it depends even if that's your goal, if your goal is to be leaner than you, you're going to have to go through a deficit, but maybe you're already lean and you're trying to build, you're a heart gainer. You wouldn't even have to go through that. It's a different, it almost depends.
Brock Ashby (01:13:50):
Yeah, once again, it depends, but it's so hard as well, especially as you're talking about you think these fitness people are always in a calorie deficit. People would lose their shit if they saw what I was eating on a daily basis. Man, I just eat so much. I just had a thousand calorie smoothie for breakfast and I'm hungry. You know what I mean? But it's hard and I don't blame people because also on social media, you have these fitness influencers posting what I eat in a day and it's like 1200 calories. This, I had a kale smoothie for breakfast. I had a teaspoon of oats for lunch. And it's like, man, no wonder they think that you have to eat like this because every especially, well, I don't follow many fitness influences. I kind of roll my eyes a bit and I'm like, man, this is, and then I look at it, I'm like, you don't eat that.
(01:14:39):
Come on, you don't eat that. You filmed today, so you've eaten all that stuff, but you cannot eat that. That is disgusting. The stuff that they eat anyway, that's a different topic, but I'm like, man, let's kind of normalise normal eating. Not everyone, first of all has the budget to have kale chips as a snack. You know what I mean? All these broccoli chips or whatever. And that's where I guess I come across a bit more realistic and achievable, like I'm not eating this sort of stuff. I had a couple nights ago, I had bread and I melted cheese on it, and then I just put steak on it. I put tam tomato sauce on top of it, and that was my dinner. I'm very simple. It works. I enjoy it, and I think that's achievable for people, but once again, I don't blame people for thinking that they have to eat that because people that they follow for inspiration or meal ideas or workout ideas, and I totally get it, but they're posting all this stuff that's like you have to jump through all these hoops to eat healthy. You have to have all these expensive organic ingredients, and if it's not organic, you're wasting your time. Or if you're not eating five meals, then you're wasting your time. If you're eating carbs off the dark, you're wasting your time. And there's all these things that people are putting out there. Once again, I don't blame people that it's such a difficult thing to overcome. But yeah, if
Ricardo Salazar (01:15:58):
People's gross, I follow some of these fitness guys and they'll show their meals like you're talking about, and they line it up and the chicken just looks like it's either boiled or whatever. It looks like. It's not even spiced. It's not even seasoned, and it's just a big steamed vegetables and maybe half an avocado is like, this is my dinner. That doesn't look appetising to anyone, especially people. I was raised, my mom is an excellent cook and she's always been really passionate about food, and I love food, all kinds of cuisines. I like to explore restaurants. It's like a hobby of mine. I think it's super fun to go out there and see what people are offering and their twist on things. And so for me to look at what they're eating, it's such a turnoff and what I've tried to tell my friends and I posted about it. I was doing more, but I haven't been able to cook as often because I've been travelling a little bit into a whole new job thing. But I do meal prep a fair amount, and I Mexican meal prep and where do I get my recipe from? My recipes from? Not any fitness influencer or anything, fitness cookbooks.
(01:17:11):
No, I get it from these Mexican grandmas that upload their YouTube on YouTube because it turns out if you understand nutrition and how all of this works, the stuff that they're cooking is really good for you. And it also happens to be delicious. Obviously this Mexican grandma that's in a ranch out in interior of Mexico, she's not giving you the macro. She doesn't know she's just making food that she grew up with, but it's a lot of vegetables sort of based sauces. It's good proteins, you know what I mean? It's just really good nutritious food and it's really well seasoned and it's delicious. And I'm like, look, I promise you don't have to eat the mound of white rice and the boiled chicken and the steamed broccoli. That doesn't have to be what you eat. There's all, if you look at every cuisine, Asian cuisine, they have all this really healthy, delicious food and they just know how to season it.
(01:18:13):
They know what kind of spices to put in there, and it makes all the world's difference. You don't have to have, obviously some foods are a little bit heavy. Yeah, sure, you can have those on occasion. You can't have samosas every night or we can't. I used to have to adjust accordingly, but you know what I mean? You get what I'm trying to say. There's so much variety out there. There's so many options for you. And it's not the boiled chicken and the steamed broccoli is what I'm saying. There's so many things that are better than that and it's good for you.
Brock Ashby (01:18:42):
Yeah, man. That's why I like flexible dieting. I still clash with people that are like, Hey, Brock, are you going to create me a meal plan if I sign up? And I'm like, no. So they're like, thanks. And then they go somewhere else, but that's better that they go somewhere else because there else, we're just going to continue to butt heads. So I say openly, Hey man, if you sign up, I'm not going to give you a meal plan. You can create one if want, if it helps you. I have a meal plan template if you want to create your own. I have a grocery guide if you want to use that to go shopping and buy the foods that you want. I have a recipe book that you can use. I give people tools, but I'm like, I don't want to give you a meal plan that you feel locked into so that you have to eat a fitness influencer if you think that that's going to get your body, because you don't, if you enjoy having a Big Mac on a Sunday, you can have a Big Mac on a Sunday.
(01:19:30):
You just need to make it work within the context of your diet throughout the week. Like meal plans are just boxes. And I know because when I was on simply shredder.com, they were just following meal plans, so I would eat. They were, and it's depressing. You can't go out on social occasions. You have to cook all the time. And I had the time to cook. I'm not saying I was too busy, but you're putting in so much effort for something that doesn't need all that effort. You can have things that are readily available. And I still do meal prep to this day, not as focused as other fitness dudes would. And I don't even post about it because I don't like to glorify meal prep. It's something that you have to do because a lot of fitness guys are like hashtag Sunday meal prep, and that is a good day to do it.
(01:20:21):
I get it. But it doesn't have to be that you don't have to do it. I literally just put a slow cooker on, and actually I'm not going to take credit. My wife does it. She'll put a big pork shoulder in or a big cut of beef, and then I'll just put the rice cooker on as well. And then in the microwave I have those heatable veggie packs, and man, that's my lunch every day. I have a smoothie for breakfast, which is really easy to prepare. I have lunch, which is just like I reheat rice, I reheat the meat, I heat the bag of veggies up, bang, it's done. I might sprinkle some cheese on it and then I'm like, let's go. Let's put some sauce on it and whatever. And we're good to go, but I'm not restricted at all. But if I had a meal plan that says I had to eat that every day, if I didn't want to eat that one day, I would just kind of go bonkers.
(01:21:10):
I'd be like, well, now I have to eat outside of this thing. And then when you're stuck to a meal plan, it's that whole thing again, there's unknown because stepping outside of it, so then there's unknown, so then there's fear and then there's anxiety. Then you don't know what to do. So you give up and you go, I'm having a pizza tonight stuff fitness. I'm just going to be a fitness isn't for me. So that's what I'm trying to stop. Just to kind of wrap up. I know we've gone for a while and I appreciate your time, man. It's been awesome. I feel like we could talk for three hours, man, especially when we get into cooking. I know that you could take the conversation, you could probably have your own podcast on cooking. I know you're passionate about it, man, on Instagram, you are very screenshotting recipes and what you're cooking.
(01:21:51):
It's really cool. But I wanted to finish with one question that I guess ties into the better with Brock podcast that I want to get into asking everyone who comes on, and it's just about being better. This is what the podcast is about. It's not necessarily about being shredded or being buff, it's just about being better in general. Because as much as I'm into fitness, I'm also super into into getting the best quality of life I'm into, just kind of bettering yourself in a way. My journey, I'm always thinking, how can I get better today? That doesn't mean in one way it's like, okay, get better with this, with work, with training, with clients, with this and that. But the question is, what's one thing you do every day to be better?
Ricardo Salazar (01:22:37):
I would say more than anything I'm now because especially what happened, my mom got sick and we had to go through that and she's doing a lot better, but
Brock Ashby (01:22:48):
That's great, man. It's good to hear that she's doing better.
Ricardo Salazar (01:22:51):
She's doing much, much better. But it really is important to give yourself credit and reflect on the things that you've done and actually accomplished. And it was often that, especially before I started my own self-improvement journey, it's really easy to be hard on yourself and to kind of feel like shit about things you haven't gotten yet or things you haven't accomplished. I'm in a rutt with my job and I don't look the way I want to look, whatever it is, but honestly, every single day I am now appreciative and surprised by what I was able to accomplish. And you have to let yourself kind of give yourself some props for being able to get to that point and understand that if you were able to do that, you were able to. For me, what started my whole journey was here at home with a yoga mat and with a kettlebell, it helped me honestly get this new gig that I'm going to start in June, because what the whole transformation did is show I'm not a spring chicken either.
(01:24:10):
I'm 38, I'm going to be 40 next year, I'll be 39 in a couple months, and then I'll be 40 next year. And so your cake isn't baked, doesn't matter if you're 22. If you're 38 like I am, or if you're older than I am, you always have an opportunity to be better. And I didn't think that was still available to me until I did it. And now every day I'm like, man, at least a little bit of appreciation for yourself and what you're able to accomplish and see that all the goals that you have, and I still have goals that I haven't achieved yet. I don't own a home, for example. At some point I would've like to have a nice place that's mine. There's certain things that I'm still shooting for, but the fact that I was able to get this far in a relative short amount of time has motivated me and reminded me that things are still possible that I thought were out of reach.
(01:25:05):
You know what I mean? And so I don't know. I think every day just being able to give yourself credit and not be so hard on yourself if you haven't accomplished this one thing, it's not the end of the world. You have time. You just have to work at it though. That's the one thing is that you do have to make a plan or at least have a vision of where you want to be or how you can get there. But it is possible because trust me, 2020 things weren't looking so great for me. I thought I was like, my take was baked and turns out it wasn't. You know what I mean? And look at, I made the change for myself personally, but also I'm starting a new gig in June, super excited about, I finally got, and we had talked about it last year, I was like, man, I really want to get a work from home gig.
(01:25:52):
I want change. But did I get it overnight? No. And it took me many, many months. It took over a year, honestly, and a lot of rejections, and I shared that. I shared all the rejections that I got from all these different jobs that I had been applying for. I ended up getting the job that not only gives me the work from home, which I was looking for, but pays me more than all the other jobs I got rejected from would've paid me. You know what I mean? And so it's like you end up still, I won in that way, but I had to go through all these rejections and some disappointments, and that's just part of it. But yeah, I'm really surprised sometimes by what I was able to accomplish, and it all started with just a decision that I made for myself during the pandemic sitting here in my apartment.
Brock Ashby (01:26:45):
Yeah, man, congratulations bro. That's awesome. I can't wait for you to start that new gig. I think that obviously giving yourself credit is important, and that's one thing I struggle with for sure. It helps to have my fiance, my wife around that because she often reminds me because I'm such a future thinker and I'm going for this. And as soon as I get it, I almost don't like throwing a party or celebrating myself, even if it's just in my mind. I'm like, okay, done that. Let's go here. What's next? I need to do this. I need to do that. I need to do this. But don't discredit the amount of work that you did. Like you said, you were rejected. You put in the work, you started with a yoga mat and a kettlebell, and that's the sign of eagerness. That's a sign of diligence of doing what you need to get the job done.
(01:27:37):
And that's what a lot of people are afraid of doing. And I think about this often, and I talk about it a lot more. So with my close circle, there's so much entitlement out there that I've realised that people think that they're owed things or they think that they should get this job, but for example, you auditioned or went for other jobs that you failed and you got this one. But some people will just go for one job because they think, oh, I'll get it. Or they have this entitlement of I'll get the best because I deserve the best. And I believe that too. But you have to match that with work, and that's one thing that you have done. And that's one thing that I saw from my dad. He'd wake up at 4:00 AM go to work, 6:00 AM till 6:00 PM come back. He's driving trucks all day working harder, and he would just wake up and do it.
(01:28:26):
So I thought the same. Oh, that's what you do. If you want to see a result, you just wake up and do it. So for example, when I first came to Sydney, I tried to pursue music for a bit, and then I just realised, okay, it's not me. I'm going to go for fitness. In that one week I applied to 10 gyms and I went to see them, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then I started a job next week, and then people were like, well, how did you get your job so fast? I was like, well, I went in and met them. I sent my cv, but I also said, I'm coming in on this day, will you be there? And then they'll be like, oh no, but we'll be here here because I know that for a CV or for a job, people would prefer to see your face.
(01:29:04):
Obviously this is before the pandemic and stuff, but I'm all about application, and I think that's where you start to get momentum and that's where things start to happen. And I have no sense of entitlement. I was like down to, I remember when I came to Sydney first, I had some money. I pretty much used it all. I had $2,000 left and that's like a month in rent in Sydney. So I was like, need to, I've got four weeks, man, I need to get a job. So I had this kind of urgency. Obviously that helps as well. Having that pressure of, alright, you're back to New Zealand, you're living with your dad, man, that drive helped, but there's that. You have to apply, you have to try things. And even this ties in, I'm going a bit off track now, but it ties in with people not knowing their purpose or what jobs they want to do in life or what their real calling is.
(01:29:58):
I think you get that through trialling. You have to try things. I love personal training and people are like, man, you found that so early. How did you get into that? I started when I was about 23 or 21 personal training. It's quite young to find the job that you love early on. It may change later on, but at the moment, this is my gig. I love this stuff. I wake up and I couldn't think of doing anything else, but I started working when I was really young. I did a catering job where I was a waiter. I washed dishes for my brother who was head chef. I tried being a glassy getting the glasses off at the bar. When I used to go to church, I used to clean the church. So when I was singing, which looks glamorous, I was signed to Sony in New Zealand doing gigs for Vodafone.
(01:30:45):
And on big stages, I remember we opened up for Jay Sean, which is probably our biggest gig. When his song down came out with Lil Wayne and he was a big deal. He came to New Zealand, we did this big gig. It was tens of thousands of people that weekend. I mean that week, I'm vacuuming the church, I'm screwing shit out of the toilets. I'm like, man, if only people knew you have to. I did that and then I tried teaching, singing, I tried teaching guitar, I tried all these things and I'm not doing it now, but it helped me eliminate what I didn't like. So then I was like, I did a lot of thinking one day and I did all the personality tests that you could do in the world and thought of my strengths, thought of what I liked, and I was like, I've always been good at sport.
(01:31:35):
I love training. I've trained ever since I was little sport weights room, I fell in love since I was 14. That's all I do. I was like, well, now I'll try personal training, but I tried all this other stuff to see if I liked it. And I guess that backs up what you're saying. You just did things. You are like, oh, I want to make a change. I've got a kettlebell, I've got a yoga man. It's not really what you do. It's the effort behind it. It's the intent, which I'm a big, big, big, big believer. And it's like if you want to lose fat bad enough, you'll run or you'll do workouts with whatever you have. You'll stream yoga workouts on YouTube and just do it. You'll try to start eating a little bit healthier. It's that intent. So man, what a great note to end on.
(01:32:22):
It's been an honour to have you on, man. We've talked about a lot of things. I think a lot of people can learn from not only your journey and what you've achieved, but also the way you think. Man, I think that's how you've got to your successful transformation. But also the big gig that you wanted, and I'm sure this isn't, like you said, you haven't baked your cake yet. You've still got shit to achieve. And that's what I love about Gary V. I don't know if you follow him, but he talks about people that are in their forties, fifties, thirties, whatever, feeling like they're doomed. Like, oh man, I'm 30. I should have, I thought when I was 25 I'd have my own house, I'd have a family, I'd have a white picket fence and all that kind of stuff. But we still, and it's
Ricardo Salazar (01:33:06):
Okay that it doesn't happen. Yeah, I especially when you see people around you, especially if they're young and they're already like, oh, I already have a home, and you have to keep up with it. It turns out everyone's path is different and that's okay. And if you focus, like I said, for myself, the fact to me that I had a plan in my head, we were going through our fitness thing and I was thinking, okay, the next phase is I'm going to switch jobs. I'm going to find a new career. Mom gets sick. Things just totally had to be put on hold, right? And I remember I messaged you and I was like, Hey dude, I am sorry. I'm going to have to just kind of pause everything and go and take care of that coming out of that, to me, it's a lot easier to focus on the things that actually matter, right?
(01:34:08):
Because when you get to that point where you don't know if things are going to work out okay, it's really important to remember that the small shit that happens really isn't worth you being that stressed out about when it should hits the fan and you're scared. It's a lot easier to focus on things that matter. And so once we got that all situated and she was doing way better, came back home because I had to move down, take care of my mom for a while, I'm back home. I had more and motivation than I think I've ever had before because I'm like, Hey, I went through the real hard stuff, the stuff that you have no way of controlling the outcome. And we were fortunate enough to get through it and we're all like, okay, so now I can actually focus on the stuff that is going to improve my life, but I don't have the sort of stress that I had as like, is my mom going to feel right?
(01:35:12):
You know what I mean? And so it just makes it easier to not sweat the small stuff and you can focus on the big things that the big changes you want to make. But it's exciting. It's not scary. And me changing careers, I'm super excited. People are like, are you nervous to starting new job? I'm like, no, I've been wanting this for a while and now I finally got the opportunities. I'm excited. What we want to achieve on the fitness side is exciting to me. It's not scared or all I'm going to have to go through. No, I mean it's a positive change and it's a challenge at the same time, but that's kind of the fun part, right?
Brock Ashby (01:35:52):
Yeah, man, I think that's the beauty of adversity and obviously that it's not the goal to go through adversity because these times or the times that you went through, I've been through a lot of tough stuff as well with my family. It's not easy, but it also gives you perspective of like you said, what's important and what matters and things just fall by the wayside that maybe used to take up a lot of energy, but I like to see it as, let's say normal problems look like this when you go through adversity and the problems like this, that's your new this, it's size of problem. And that's why man, there's so many success stories of people coming out of hard times, being homeless, losing parents, being an orphan, all these kind of hard times because I think your problems just become so much smaller because the things that matter actually really reveal themselves. It's just perspective how you see life as such a, that's why I encourage people to do things because you like what I was ranting on before, washing dishes, cleaning toilets, and doing shitty jobs like that. It gives you perspective of what hard workers and what real things are. Or for me, I've been close to broke many times and now I'm like, it gives me perspective of what matters. And it also helps build confidence in yourself that you can back it up. Appreciation.
Ricardo Salazar (01:37:27):
I think too, you think appreciate things more. The fact that you knew how it was to be broke as shit, and now you're on the other side of that, Hey, it wasn't that long ago that I probably could, I couldn't afford a combo meal at McDonald's because I was that broke. But now you're able to go out and have a really nice meal. You appreciate that meal so much more because you know how it's to not be able to even, I remember going to restaurants and not being able to order appetisers. You got the one entree and a glass of water and that's it. You could afford. Yeah, that was it. And now I can go to restaurants and it's like, yeah, give me that app and you're not even looking at prices. You're getting what you want. I'm like, you know what? I'm in a much better place than I was 10 years ago when I can do this.
(01:38:17):
You know what I mean? So you really appreciate where you're at. And so I think being appreciative of what I've been able to accomplish and where I'm at now, it's helped a lot. Especially like I said, what we went through with mom, I'm just like, I'm not going to stress out about if someone, I don't know, if I made a joke and someone don't like it and they mad at me, he's like, I'll apologise. He goes, but it's not going to ruin my entire day. I'm like, look, y'all bigger things to worry about. There's bigger things to focus on and let's just kind of move on. So I'm like, I'm not going to stress the small stuff. I'm just
Brock Ashby (01:38:54):
Not. Yeah, man. I remember when I used to, and I'll make this the last story or us, we'll be here forever, but yeah, going back to the whole money thing, I remember this was before I moved to Sydney and had 2000 left for the rent. I remember I lived in Auckland and I moved up and I didn't have much money. I was about 18 and my dad gave me $800 and I drove up to Auckland, which was like I had to drive to the top of the south island, catch a ferry, and then I caught a ferry. Then I drove another 10 hours. So it was a couple of nights, it was a lot of travel in a shitty Honda Civic that was unregistered, unwarranted and had an oil leak. It was like a nightmare, man. It was so bad. I was just in there by myself.
(01:39:36):
I was like, this is the worst drive I've ever done and the longest drive I've ever done too. And it was to move to Auckland for supposedly better opportunity. And I got there, had to pay $800 because my car was almost broken. It was just got there. So I lost that money that I had there, and I didn't have much money. And that's why I started selling flip flops just to get by while I was trying to do music and all these other things. So I was young, I was 18, and I would go to these Chinese food markets and look for everything that was on sale. I would only buy things that were reduced to clear, going to go off in one or two days, and I was eating cheap things. I wouldn't really, I'd buy chicken breast or the fattiest cuts of beef mints.
(01:40:16):
It was the cheapest. And then I'd buy all these organs. They were cheap. I was literally really conscious of it. I was being real gangster about it. I was really battling. But once again, that gave me confidence. If things go to shit, I'm going to survive. And whether I'm eating organs every breakfast, lunch, and dinner, then I'll do it. But it's like that's why I'm such a fan of adversity because it's like, man, and whatever adversity you face, it's different. But this is an example of what I went through where I was getting reduced to clear vegetables, fruit organs and meat. Things were only on sale just so I could survive. Going through that stuff really does give you appreciation. For now, I'm grateful that I can just, I don't have to buy things that are on sale. Just a small thing like that that you would only experience if you went through that. That's why I'm like, go through things, do things, apply for things, and that's how you got your job and that's how you got your transformation. It's awesome, man. So man, let's wrap it up there. I appreciate your time, brother.
(01:41:23):
I would usually throw to, if you want to promote anything or if you want to get people to follow you or something, but I'll tag you when I post this, but is there anything, just in case I don't miss you, I don't want to
Ricardo Salazar (01:41:40):
Mean if y'all follow me on Instagram, you can see me eat and you'll see my dog. So that's interest. You allall this, so you're welcome to follow me. But I'm a pretty, I wouldn't say boring, it's just me, me and my dog and eating. But I really appreciate the opportunity, man, for having me on here and I, I'm really glad that we're going to hit that one year mark. Me too. July or June, and it's going to be exciting. We have a new, was it Brooke? Doing I think personal training starting probably in, was it July? I forget what we said we were going to do. And I'm excited. I'm excited because I want to see, I'm going to do a comparison. I always do, but two year one in July, and that one's going to shock people I think more than anything, even though they've seen me throughout the entire transformation process.
(01:42:36):
But it's going to be cool to see what I look like at the end of this year versus how I started, right? Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it, man. I really appreciate everything, your hard work. I've always told you that. I always tell people that want to start learning, just follow you. That's what I did. I followed you for at least almost two years, I think before I actually signed up. I was like, just start with that. Learn. And then if I can help, send me a message. I tell my friends, I'll try to help the best I can, but it's a day-to-day thing. You're not going to learn everything overnight and don't be too hard on yourself. Give yourself a shot. You can do it. It may not look the same as it was for me. Everyone has their own path they're going to make, but just give yourself a shot and don't be too hard on yourself and take it day by day. Take it easy on yourself. It's a big, long sort of road. It's not something that it's going to be accomplished overnight.
Brock Ashby (01:43:31):
Yeah, and that's one thing I'll always say too, it's always bigger picture, and that's when people do the build by block eight week challenge. I'm like, this is an eight week challenge, but this is just the beginning. And I'm not saying that to try and people to working with me forever. I'm just trying to say, yeah, you might lose five kilos, but that doesn't mean you're done. It's like we've got to keep that weight off or we have to build a muscle on top of that fitness, isn't it for everything. I've been doing it for 14 years. I'm still learning. I'm still figuring things out. I'm still incorporating new exercises or trying new ways of improving my approach. So yeah, man, that's great advice. But yeah, let's end this before we continue talking. Yeah, man, I appreciate everything. I'm excited for your success and continuing your body transformation as your coach, but then also just seeing where you end up in life with this new mindset, this new attitude you've had from 2020 when you decided to, I guess, really start locking down and developing yourself. So yeah, man, I'm excited. And yeah, I'll see you on the next Built by Brock live coaching call or in the Facebook group somewhere. I'll see you around. Bye. I appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much. Yeah, you too. Talk to you, man. Alright, man. Talk soon. See you, man.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
What's up guys and girls? This is Brock Ashby here, and welcome to episode number 10 of the Better with Brock podcast. In this podcast, I'm going to be breaking down the biggest fat loss mistakes that people make. I have five points that I want to cover. This isn't going to be a very long podcast, so sit tight. It's going to be about 20 to 30 minutes, maybe even shorter, but I really want to nail these points home because I feel like we spend too much time in fat loss phases because we're not doing it correctly in the first place. I think that we can achieve fat loss faster, and I don't like the idea of people feel like people feeling like they're dieting all the time, feel like their whole life's on a diet. My theory is get in and get out. So get in diet, train hard, all that kind of stuff.
(00:47):
But when you're not trying to lose fat, move to a period of maintenance or a period of building muscle in a calorie surplus so that when not burning the candle at both ends or destroying our metabolism and just burning ourself out. So the first point that I want to talk about point number one, the biggest fat loss mistakes that we make would be overlooking the importance of nutrition. There's a saying or there's a common thought in training in general that transforming your body or getting a result is 80% nutrition, 20% training, right? And I completely disagree with that. For fat loss, I would say it's a hundred percent nutrition and 0% training just because, well, you don't have to work out to lose fat or to lose weight. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't lose weight, but I mean, I'm not saying that you shouldn't train when you're trying to lose weight, but if you get into a calorie deficit, which is a way of saying if you burn more calories than you consume, you will drop body fat, you will get leaner, you will lose weight regardless if you're training or not. Now, training working out helps maintain muscle mass, even build muscle mass if you're lucky in a calorie deficit.
(01:58):
It teaches us to be stronger. It helps us move better. There's plenty of benefits to training, but often some people are so busy. We have busy moms and dads. We have people working two or three jobs. They may be too busy to train, but they still want to lose fat, and you can take ownership of your nutrition, burn more calories than you consume, and you can still drop body fat. You can still lose weight if your goal is weight loss. The importance of nutrition is so high when you're trying to lose fat. Building muscle is a completely different story. Training is the centre of what you need to do with your nutrition. You need to create an optimal environment when you're trying to build. But training is like the centre. You have to build muscle mass. How do you build muscle mass? You give it a stimulus through training that it hasn't seen before by applying progressive overload, by getting stronger, by lifting heavier weights.
(02:56):
But with fat loss training does play a role in terms of maintaining your muscle mass. But ultimately how we drop the body fat is by creating a calorie deficit through our nutrition. So we find our maintenance calories. If you don't have a calorie calculator, there's a tonne online or you can use mine@teambroashby.com or c alc.team brock ash b.com. If you want to use mine, it's free. Once you find your maintenance calories, anything under that is going to be a calorie deficit, and if you eat under those calories to your calorie deficit, you will drop body fat whether you are training or not. Now, training will help you be more active. Training will help you maintain muscle mass, but it's not going to be the sole reason why you're dropping body fat. We can't overlook the importance of nutrition. And while we're here, the first priority is creating a calorie deficit because without that, you will not drop body fat.
(03:56):
But the second priority nutritionally is protein. We want to have a high protein diet. What's a high protein diet? A high protein diet is anywhere between 1.5 grammes to 2.5 grammes per kg of your body weight. So for easy maths, let's say you weigh a hundred kg, that would be anywhere from 150 kg to 250 kg, and that's a very vast range. So what I like to say to my clients is, if you are leaner more on the leaner end, let's say around 15% body fat or less, you'd want to be on the higher end of the protein spectrum. If you are less lean, let's say 15% and above, maybe even 20 and above, somewhere around that area, you'd probably require less protein. The second point that is one of the biggest fat loss mistakes is people confusing the method with the principle. Now, what does that mean? A method of creating a calorie deficit is intermittent fasting or skipping breakfast, whatever you want to call it, is keto is low, carbohydrate is low, fat is vegan, is vegetarian.
(05:19):
These are methods. These are methods to creating a calorie deficit if people use these methods and it helps them burn more calories than they consume, that's the method they've used to create a calorie deficit. But the principle is the calorie deficit, and that's why I never preach, do keto, do carnivore, do a vegan diet, be vegetarian, do low carb, do no sugar, because these are not the principles. These are methods, and so often personal trainers are just pushing methods on people. Say, you have do fasting. The only way to lose body fat is fasting. That's not true. I can tell you that a thousand percent, you can lose body fat by eating eight meals a day as long as you create a calorie deficit, and the reason I preach about the principle is because it actually empowers the person. It doesn't restrict them to one method.
(06:15):
If you believe that fasting is the only way for you to drop body fat, then you'll think if you don't fast, then you won't drop body fat and you will act like that as well. But if you know that the principle of the calorie deficit is where the fat loss actually happens, then you can choose whatever method works for you. Maybe you don't want to fast. Maybe you get hungry every three hours and you want to eat regularly, then you don't have to do keto because you know that it's not about being in ketosis or being on a keto diet and avoiding carbohydrates like the plague. It's about creating a calorie deficit, and if you do that whilst eating carbohydrates, then you can still drop body fat.
(06:57):
And this is so important because there's so many people online and people get confused. Trust me, I have a lot of clients that are like, well, I've read this. I've heard this. So why are you telling me to do this? Why are you saying it's okay to eat bread when I'm trying to lose weight? When this guy online say that if you eat bread, it's going to make you fat because your insulin's going to spike, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's so much crap out there. But the best way to see through the crap, to see through the methods that people are pushing onto you is to know the principles, and that principle for fat loss is burning more calories than you consume, creating a calorie deficit. Number three, the biggest fat loss mistake is eating too little too fast, and that sounds very counterintuitive. Eating too little too fast.
(07:50):
A really common thought for people that want to lose fat is they just eat as little as possible. Oh, I'm going to do the 1200 calorie diet. I'm going to do the 800 calorie diet, then I'm guaranteed to lose body fat. Yes, yes, you probably will, but how long is that going to last? How long can you eat 800 calories a day and sustain your life? How can you train regularly on 800 calories a day? How can you look after your kids? How can you stay switched on at work on 800 calories a day? I have more calories in my smoothie for breakfast than I like. You know what I mean? It's so small. It's not sustainable. If you're eating 800 calories a day every single day for the rest of your life, I'm sure you'll die of starvation or malnourishment, something like that. It's not about eating as little as possible.
(08:47):
It's actually about the opposite. Fat loss is about eating as much food as you can while still getting away with losing fat. It's not about eating as little as possible. It's not about eating 800 calories a day. It's not about eating 1200 calories a day feeling so stu, feeling so deprived like you are making amazing progress and that this is going to last forever. It might last for a while, a couple of days a week, a week or two, maybe even a month, but you can't eat 800. You can't eat 1200 calories a day sustainably. That's not going to work because then what happens after that? What happens when your metabolism adjusts to the 1200 calories that you eat every day? You have to eat less, so you have to go to a thousand calories to lose weight. Now then what happens to your body when you get used to a thousand calories?
(09:41):
You got to go down to 800 to lose calories. So you go down to 800 and you just keep going down and down and down and down, decreasing your intake and long-term slowing your metabolism because the less you consume, the less your body wants to burn as well, because your body's smart. Your body doesn't want to continue to burn a tonne of energy if you are not consuming enough energy to build that back up. That's called metabolic adaptation. So if you're only eating 800 calories a day, your body's going to adjust to try and burn 800 calories a day, so therefore you'll feel more tired. Your workouts will be pretty crap. You won't want to go for walks. Some people even blink slower, especially when they're going for competitions on bodybuilding, when they're on really low calories, maybe like 1200 to 800 calories, they even blink slower.
(10:29):
That's how tired they are. That is not a sustainable way to diet. I like to give my clients as much food as possible whilst they're losing fat, so then they train hard, so then they feel better, and then ultimately we have calories up our sleeves so that when we reach that point in fat loss where our fat loss starts to slow, maybe after three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, we can drop our calories again, but we haven't dropped to 1200 initially. Let's say we've dropped down to 2000 or even 1800. If we're at 1800 calories and then we stop losing fat, we can go down to 1700 or we can go down to 1600, but we still have a larger amount of calories to pull from. So yes, if you want to be more aggressive with your calorie deficit, you can take more calories away for a faster result.
(11:17):
However, you have to be cautious that it's going to be a lot harder. Your hunger signals will be harder. Your training may not be as strong. Your focus may not be as good at work. You may be a bit more foggy, and also, there's the danger of getting such strong hunger pangs or hunger signals that you just kind of cave and give into your diet. I did that a tonne when I was growing up, getting into fitness and trying to figure things out on my own. I would do a whole day of fasting or I would eat one meal a day and think that it'd be all good, and then I'd find myself diving into the cupboard at about 11:00 PM at night just because I was so starving and man, 3000, 4,000, 5,000 calories later, there's me in the cupboard. What is sustainable for you? That's what you have to ask yourself. Is it 800 calories a day? Probably not. The starting place that I like to start with my clients is a 20% calorie deficit. So as opposed to thinking, oh, I need to take a thousand calories away. I need to take 500 calories away. Look at your calories and take 20% off and start there. There, you're eating 80% of your maintenance calories. You're creating a 20% deficit, and that's a great place to get fat loss started. The fourth point,
(12:41):
The biggest mistake in fat loss, ditching what you love and eating clean. This was a huge mistake I made when I was younger. I ditched everything that I loved. I didn't eat ice cream. I didn't eat bread. I didn't eat fruit even. I was scared of fruit. I've talked about that before. I ditched all this stuff that I liked and I decided to eat clean. So I ate brown rice. I ate boiled chicken. I ate steamed vegetables. I ate cans of tuna. I counted the amount of almonds that I had in my hand and I'd only eat 10 to 20, and if I went over, I felt guilty.
(13:18):
It doesn't have to be like that. You don't have to ditch the foods that you love. Like I said in the first point, the importance of nutrition. The most important thing is creating a calorie deficit. If you do that, you don't have to ditch the foods that you love and eat clean. Sure, you can eat clean. Eating clean is great. It's mostly nutrient dense food. There's a lot of fruit. There's a lot of veg, there's a lot of lean protein. It's a great start for a nutritional diet, but it doesn't mean that everything else is off the cards. You can still eat ice cream and lose weight. That's why I did the 30 day ice cream challenge and lost five kilos in 30 days eating ice cream every single day. Not because I think ice cream is the pinnacle of fat loss or the fat loss food that no one knows, but because it can create some sort of sustainability or feeling of normal life when you're dieting, because when you're dieting, you're eating less calories, so it already sucks.
(14:16):
Taking away calories from a person sucks. So if it sucks, how do we make it suck less? Well, we can keep in the foods that we love. We can keep in maybe a couple of scoops of ice cream before bed to help us feel like we're not a clean eating bodybuilder going into a competition, but we're just eating an ice cream to enjoy our food because yes, we want to get results, but we want to find a sustainable way to do that. We want to find a way that's enjoyable. Quality of life is important, which is why I think we need to keep these foods in now. Just like I was saying, it's not about eating as little as possible. It's about eating as many calories as you can whilst losing fat. It's not about eating as little takeaway foods as possible. It's not about eating as much clean foods as possible.
(15:07):
It's about, I think keeping as many of the foods that you love in your diet while you're dieting so that it can still feel normal to you and so that it can feel sustainable to you and that you feel like you can actually maintain that diet longer, longer for a couple of days. Because I think that's why so many of us are in fat loss phases for most of our life, is because we're not doing it right, and if we do it right, there's a saying, do it right. Do it once, right? So if we do fat loss and we're trying to lose weight for eight weeks and we do it right after that eight weeks, we can go straight to maintenance and enjoy more food straight away. If we diet correctly for eight weeks, then we can go straight to a calorie surplus after that and enjoy way more food than being in a miserable calorie deficit.
(15:53):
And I say miserable calorie deficit because I want to encourage you not to live there. It's not a place to live. We don't want to be living on 800 calories a day. That's miserable. We don't want to be living on 1200 calories a day. That's miserable. We only want to be in a calorie deficit when we want to lose weight, and that's it. Then we get out, get in and get out. The fifth point that I'm going to finish on that I think is one of the biggest fat loss mistakes that we make are panic workouts. What's a panic workout? Well, I made that term up just before I started this podcast, and it's the workouts that people do to lose fat. It's a panic workout. People, they just switch. They think high reps, low weight. I need to sweat. I can't rest. So they do these workouts where they're just panicking.
(16:43):
They're just walking around like a headless chicken panicking in the gym. They're doing six exercises back to back, no rest, sweating afterwards. They're smashing themselves on the treadmill, doing sprints every single day. Need to train every single day, maybe even train twice a day, go for a run in the morning and train a crazy non-res headless chicken workout in the evening. Sure, I'm all for hard training. Trust me. I love a good hard session, but we don't need to panic, workout, let your nutrition do the fat loss, but you can train the same. If I'm doing a fat loss phase, my training doesn't change at all. It stays exactly the same, but I eat a bit less so that my calorie deficit looks after my fat loss that needs to happen, and I just focus on getting strong in the gym, maintaining my muscle mass, trying my best to get stronger, maybe even potentially building muscle mass in my calorie deficit, which is possible, not optimal, but possible. I just train the same. I don't do light reps.
(17:49):
I still lift heavy. I'll still do six reps, four reps, two reps, because our training should stay the same. Whether we're trying to maintain muscle mass in a calorie deficit, whether we're trying to build muscle at maintenance or on a calorie surplus, our training should stay the same, which is a great thing, and our nutrition can look after our fat loss. So get into a calorie deficit, drop body fat, but still train the same. Don't do panic workouts. You don't need to wake up at 4:00 AM and go for a 10 K run every morning just because you're trying to lose fat. You can if you want, but you don't have to panic workout, you can still rest two to three minutes in your rest period. You don't have to cut your wrist period to 10 seconds and just go straight to the next exercise, straight to the next exercise, straight to the next exercise. If you want to do a circuit, that's cool. Look, that's kind of like six exercise back to back, but there's a big rest at the end.
(18:49):
What I'm trying to get at is you don't need to change your whole lifestyle just to drop body fat. Let your food do it. It's a much easier way. Look, if you want to increase your physical activity, the best way to do that is to go for more walks, get your steps up. If you only get 8,000 steps every single day, go for 10,000. If you get 10,000, maybe go for 12. That's going to give you more physical activity. That's going to get you outside more. That's going to get you walking with your friends or your partner more. There's a lot of benefits to it, but I think keep your workouts the same. Lift weights, take your risk period. Don't do anything stupid. Don't think short term, but if you want to increase your physical activity, I think walking more is a great place to start.
(19:36):
It's no impact. It doesn't really cost that much energy, and it's really easy to do. So those are my five fat loss mistakes. Just to wrap it up and give you a summary, number one was overlooking the importance of your nutrition. Number two was confusing the method of diets with the principle of calorie deficit. The third point is trying to eat too little too fast. I want you to eat as much as you can while still losing weight. Number four, ditching what you love and purely just eating clean. It doesn't have to be the way. We can still eat ice cream if you want when we're dieting. And number five is panic workouts. We don't need to panic. We can just let down nutrition do its thing and train just as hard. Guys, if you want to work with me as your personal trainer, you can join built by Brock.
(20:30):
You can get the 16 week mail guide. You can work with me with one-on-one personalised coaching. Just jump on the team Brock Ashby website and have a look around and see what plan suits you best. That is team brock ashby.com. That's where you'll find everything. My name is Brock Ashby. This is episode number 10 of the Bed with Brock Podcast. It's been an honour. I'm looking forward to having more guests on in the future. I've stepped away from the podcast for a bit because, well, I got married, I went on a honeymoon. I went to my cousin's wedding, and I kind of just stepped away from the podcast for a bit. But we're back. I have some guests in the pipeline. I also have some clients jumping on board because I think it'll be really cool to get their stories and go under the hood of how they achieve success with my coaching, guiding them, but ultimately them navigating through their own obstacles, through their things that they had to face. So really looking forward to getting their stories out there into your ears. So yeah, enjoy yourself and I'll see you soon. Cheers.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number nine of the Better with Brock podcast. I'm here with Gus Wallen, the founder of Gotcha For Life. How you going mate?
Gus Worland (00:09):
Hey Brock. Great to see you buddy. Before we start, just thanks for everything you did for me and my family over Christmas. Your online stuff was awesome and you kept us going. You connected us beautifully. So it was a pleasure to come on your podcast,
Brock Ashby (00:24):
Man. It's awesome to have you here. And actually, we were just talking about it before, but felt like during the pandemic, so this was when Gus and his family signed up to the Built by Rock eight Week Challenge. People either went double down, like they got gear, they trained at home, they got on board, did an online programme or tried to do whatever their gym did in the meantime. And some people just kind of ditched it, thought, oh, get some covid weight. That's what people were putting it down to. But what made you kind of do that? What made you sign up and kind of take action?
Gus Worland (00:58):
Brock? I think probably the best thing for me is that I had three kids that are pretty active and they were normally at the gym and they went, righto, what can we do? Plus, I suppose they're adults now, they're 18, 20 and 22, and they're like, we want to look after dad because I've always, it's my kryptonite. Wait, I'm an emotional eat and I'm very busy so I don't look after myself as well as I should. So they had an opportunity to drag me along with them and I absolutely loved it. I was just like, what are we doing today? Who am I working out with? And it was just so easy to understand and we got the weights and we got the mats and we got all the equipment and we set up a little gym at the front of our place. It was just fantastic.
(01:38):
It brought us together, not just in terms of eating and working out, but just communicating better and talking about what we were doing and how we were trying to get better. And you're right, there was plenty of people that went the other way. And I suppose in all the work I do at Gotcha, I was like, give everyone a break. It was enough drama to deal with Covid, how you dealt with it was your own way. But I suppose now we're coming out the other side. This is an opportunity now to look at things a bit more positively.
Brock Ashby (02:05):
Yeah. So with Gotcha for life, what kind of, tell us a bit about the foundation because obviously I know quite a bit about it. I dug around, I'm wearing the hat that you sent me. Appreciate it. But yeah, tell us a bit about it, why you started it, what's your goal,
Gus Worland (02:24):
Mate, thanks for representing your hat. Looks great by the way. Thank you. Cheers mate. Yeah, so I lost a friend of mine to suicide and I'm a real communicator and I didn't talk about it for like eight years. And then I was on breakfast radio on Triple M in Sydney one day and I said, you know what? I just want to talk about the fact that I just don't have the emotional muscle to actually talk about something that really, really plays on my mind. And it was a struggle. I got the words out eventually with a bit of support with Maddie Johns and MG, who I was on radio with. And it started the conversation on our show around why do men find it so hard to talk about the really important things in life where we can talk about the weather work, we can talk sort of
Brock Ashby (03:07):
Sport.
Gus Worland (03:07):
Yeah, we can just, sport is the key, right? Because it's a great leveller. If you and I were chatting now, we'd talk New Zealand, all Blacks, the Warriors, we talk about the gold medal one a couple of nights ago by your girl and all that. And it's just easy. But we've got to start having some conversations outside of easy. And the only way we can do that is a bit like what you do with your physical fitness. We need to work on our mental fitness. And so I started this whole conversation started, got you for life. I did the MANUP programme, which is still available on a, B, CI view. We've just ticked over a hundred million views of that and it really basically challenged masculinity in Australia and why we lose so many blokes every day to suicide. They did a MANUP show in New Zealand as well, which finished a year ago and they had a huge response to that as well because you guys in New Zealand have a very similar way of looking at how it takes to be a man.
(03:58):
So it started a whole conversation for me around that. And then off the back of Man Up I started gotcha for life and what our goal is, it's a simple goal but it's a very difficult one to achieve, is zero suicides men and women and every other gender under the sun. Because at the moment the number one way to die if you're an Australian male is suicide. We lose seven blokes a day every day. We lose two women a day every day. And the other thing, Brock, you and I have been chatting now for about six minutes or 12 people have attempted suicide in this country in the time that you and I chatted. So when your listeners think about that, every 28 seconds, click your fingers, that's someone else ringing the ambulance and saying, I've walked in on a work colleague that's tried to take their life or I've walked in on a loved one at home who's tried to take their life.
(04:46):
So we've got massive issues in this country and in New Zealand, in fact all around the world around suicide. So I want to give people the words to have the conversation, the confidence to have the conversation so they don't worry alone. And that's written across the top of your hat. Don't worry alone. If you worry alone, then you come up with some really shit answers. Whereas if you share it with someone, you talk to a professional, a coach, a boss, a mate, all of a sudden you've got other people's points of views and it just opens up a better conversation. You'll get a better solution and you're more likely to get away from all the problems that life is throwing at you at the moment. And these were problems Brock before the pandemic, so you imagine it's even worse now we need to get more connected with the people that we love.
Brock Ashby (05:33):
Yeah, I can totally relate to the worrying alone type of idea. I've been quite fortunate not to actually suffer serious mental health issues, but there have been times where I've definitely felt, I wouldn't say depressed because I think people chuck that term around a bit too easily because people that actually are depressed, it's a very different story to just being upset or being sad. But I definitely found this time where I struggled with that area of my life where I was the most alone. So I was young, I moved from my home city up to Auckland. So I'm from Christchurch, I went up to Auckland, I didn't really have any family there, any friends. And I went up there and I just isolated myself. I had a studio apartment and I would just work, go home, keep working. I was trying to build my career, trying to take over the world.
(06:26):
I had this really aggressive mindset, but I didn't value seeing friends. I didn't value seeing time. I was a bit driven and just thought opportunities and this and that. And I ended up kind of getting really upset and I ended up, I think I was 20, I had a huge breakdown. I was like on the floor, I was crying, I was upset. I didn't know what to do with my life. I felt like I had no purpose and I felt like I wouldn't have had that if I had people around me because as soon as I hit that area, I was fortunate enough to actually have people around me that cared for me at the time, but I just never reached out to them and they got me out of that place and I started to think of, okay, I really need that base of people and it is just super important just to talk it out. You think it's not that big of a deal just seeing friends or seeing family sometimes when you're blessed to have it enough around you so much you don't really value that time, but it's so important. Small problems become huge and then they just grow in your head and you feel like you're kind of stuck with such a big goal of zero suicide. Where do you start with that? Obviously you have programmes, but practically it's quite difficult.
Gus Worland (07:38):
Yeah, well if you look at the mental, what I call mental fitness, because mental health I think tends to make you think that it's someone else's issue. Whereas if you talk about mental fitness, it's a bit like your physical fitness, give yourself a mark out of 10 for your physical fitness and it's quite easy to give you yourself that number. And if you want to get fitter, then go onto one of your programmes, eat a little bit cleaner, stop drinking so much, stop smoking, move a little bit more. But what are the exercises for your mental fitness? So that's the first way of looking at it. It's a normal situation. It's not someone else's issue. We've all got some type of mental health and mental illness. So own that and understand that and understand that we're human and we can't expect to have all the answers to everything.
(08:21):
So that's the first thing. It affects us all. And then secondly, you can't look at it this huge big problem. You can only look at your own village. And what I talk about when I do my corporate chats is looking after your own village. It's those people that you love and adore that you cannot imagine living without. They're the people that you have to look after and then they are going to look after you as well. So it doesn't mean you burst into tears every five minutes or have a deep and meaningful conversation every time you talk, but it means that you've got someone in your life who has got you for life. And that's why I called it got you for life, because it's simple to understand, to have that teammate, to have that friend, that professional, whatever it might be to have someone that you're talking to so you don't end up worrying alone.
(09:05):
That's really the key. But it starts with one conversation. It starts with you and I talking here and someone perhaps listening to this podcast going, oh, that makes a bit of sense, or I'm going to jump out of my comfort zone. I'm going to talk to one of my best friends today about what I'm truly feeling. Because a lot of the time we don't want to burden our mates with how we truly feel. Well the thing is, why are we so good at helping other people when they ask but not so good for asking for help ourselves? So we need to jump out of that stereotype. And it's a big thing in New Zealand and Australia, especially with men, is I want to deal with shit myself. I don't want to have to ask for help, and if I ask for help, it's unmanly and I'm not going to be this and that.
(09:43):
Well, that type of attitude has got us to the stats we are now where I told you seven men, two women, and one every 28 seconds. So if we want to keep doing that, let's keep doing the same thing over and over again. If we want to change that figure and get it down, then we have to start changing our behaviours. So it really starts with you and me, it starts with your listeners and it starts with everyone that I talk to going, you know what? I'm going to do things differently and I'm going to deal with my own village and what I do Brock, and it's a really simple thing to do. You get a pen and paper out, can you remember getting a pen and paper out? You don't do it much anymore, but actually get your listeners and you and I can do it.
(10:21):
Get a pen and paper out and write down a list of the people you love and adore. You can't imagine living without 'em and make that list. Now it could be two people, it could be 10 people, it could be more. But what I tend to do is I shape it over a couple of days and you write a few people, then you scrub 'em out and you put 'em back in again and you forget someone and all of a sudden you end up with a list after a few days, go to work on that list, ring them up, let 'em know you love 'em, send 'em a text message, send 'em a funny joke, a meme, whatever it might be. However you have that relationship with them, start getting outside of your comfort zone. Let 'em know that you love them and start with, I love you, I miss you.
(10:58):
Look forward to seeing you soon. And people ring you up and go, what are you sending me this message for? You say you love me, what's going on? It just starts a different conversation and you go, you know what? I heard this bloke on the podcast. I want to reach out to people I love and you are one of the people I love. And you watch people go, oh, well thanks brother. Yeah, I love you too. All of a sudden it just starts that conversation and that's what we need to do. We can't keep doing the same thing over and over again.
Brock Ashby (11:23):
Yeah, I actually have a similar process, so I don't have pen and paper. It did start that way a few years ago actually when I was younger. But I have this thing that I do that kind of made me feel bulletproof and it does tie into mental fitness. It was mainly for me to set up my day ride, but I start, so I started calling it the gratitude list, but now I call it the thank bank because it sounds a bit cooler. You
Gus Worland (11:48):
Be careful when you say that out loud.
Brock Ashby (11:50):
Yeah, that's why I called it that. So it's a bit easier to remember. But so there's a structure, and actually in the Built by Brock programme, I'm going to be sending out to them so they can do their own structure. But I actually start the day with, so this gratitude section, so I talk about my family, and I actually say this out loud, kind most days started going for a walk in the morning, and I just think, and because no one out there at six in the morning, I just say it out loud, there's no one there, it's just me and the beach and whatever. So
Gus Worland (12:23):
Tell me, take me and your listeners to that walk. So you're walking along and you say, what?
Brock Ashby (12:29):
Well, I kind of just talk to anybody or anything that's listening, but I say I'm grateful for, and then I list off my fiance, my dad, my brothers, all my family and their families and their kids. So my nephews, my nieces, and then I list, I rattle off my friends. So I actually start with that, the people, just what you were talking about. So I have that list, but
Gus Worland (12:54):
It's your village?
Brock Ashby (12:55):
Yeah, that's my village, but it's in my notes app because people have kids or you stop kind of seeing your friends as much and then you're not as close with them. So it's just like you said, you kind of erase them off. Not to say that you cut people out of your life, but just you have to be realistic. Sometimes you don't spend your time with the same people. And then I kind of go through things like the talents that I think I have, the business I run, the life I live like basic things. So this thing kind of helps me be grateful. I have this saying, and I'll just read from top to bottom, it says, thank you for the roof over my head, food on my plate, clothes in my body, money in my wallet, words in my mouth, thoughts in my brain, people in my life, the job I choose and the opportunities in my life.
(13:37):
So I kind of have this thing and then it goes forever. Then there's a next section called declaration. And I say the things that I want to be, so the future bedrock and the future, I say, I'll just rattle off the first five, right? I say, I'm focused. I put first things first. I get what I pursue. I'm unstoppable, I'm successful, but my happiness is not attached to my success, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I have about, there's about 30 things. So I put it on my notes app because I add things when I think things that
Gus Worland (14:09):
Makes sense. You got so much to put in there. Plus you're young, right? You don't do pen and paper anymore. You do phones and IES and pamphlets
Brock Ashby (14:17):
And stuff talking to your phone and stuff. So sometimes I think, oh, I want to be generous, so I'll put, I'm generous, I'm selfless. Things like that. I give without the expectation of return and I have these kind of values that I want to live by. And then after this declaration phase, I have this ask and you shall receive. So everything that I'm striving for, I put, so my goals, how many people I want to help with my work, what sort of people I want to help, how I can use social media as a tool, like this podcast, how we can reach people and have a positive impact. All this kind of stuff. I rattle off and then at the bottom I have these quotes, Proverbs and Wise words. So that's what I've called it then. So there's some bible verses that I like. There's some quotes that I really like. I like this one called, and it kind of helps you think forward. A society grows great when old men plant trees and who shade, they know they shall never sit. So just things like that help you think, okay, it's not just about me, it's about my family, it's about my friends. So there's another 20 quotes that it started with three
Gus Worland (15:19):
And
Brock Ashby (15:20):
Three or four years later, even before I had a fiance, I used to put the type of lady that I wanted to marry because I started thinking once I'm asking for all these goals and all this kind of stuff, but even relationships, that's a huge one. So why avoid that and not just wing it and go, oh, I'll just date whoever. It's like I want to date this person and that person. But I guess that's, and we didn't even plan on talking about this, but that's kind of what I do to set out my day. I start with the village and then I kind of expand on everything else and it kind of gives me purpose and helps remind me what I'm trying to do with the time I have.
Gus Worland (15:59):
Yeah, look, that makes total sense to me. I suppose what I do, being a bit older and having sort of different priorities, I'm 53 now is if I just do the jobs that I'm meant to do, which is obviously the radio with Triple M looking after my family and gotcha for life and look after my village in a week, I'm ticking all the boxes for me. I'm like, that's awesome. And I love hearing those quotes. My kryptonite is my weight and I looked at something the other day saying I want to look at in six months time and be really proud of the decisions I'm making now to change. And someone sent me one yesterday, we're talking, we're literally just free balling now. So I like this, but someone sent me a quote and because success is a thing that a lot of people, what does success to you compared to what a success For me, it's different. If you focus on results, you'll never change. If you focus on change, you'll get results. Because I start a diet or start a new programme, and if I don't start looking like you within about three or four days, I'm like, well, this is shit out. It's
Brock Ashby (17:14):
Not working.
Gus Worland (17:16):
Whereas people like may relax, you've taken your 30 years to get to where you are. It might take a little, not quite as long, but it's going to take a while to get some change done. And that's my problem. If I don't see it, then I'll change. I'll switch it, I'll go, that's rubbish, dah dah. So I like the quotes and I've got another one written up. I've got a few written up here in my office. It says nothing tastes better than skinny, which my dad used to tell me, yeah,
Brock Ashby (17:44):
I've put that before.
Gus Worland (17:46):
Two wolves in your head, which one wins? You know how there's always those two, the one that wants to take you to the dark side, which we can all go to. And another one is really is your spiritual cup and the wolf that drinks out of the human cup, which one wins out of those two wolves? Well, the one that you feed, don't let the old man in is something that I heard from Clint Eastwood because he is still doing stuff in his nineties. He's still, I love that, going to movie premieres, directing, acting and stuff. And they're like, what are you doing? You've got more money than God. What are you working for? And he goes, well, don't let the old man in. I want to keep moving, otherwise it's all going to be over. And then this is one I learned from Lane, it's fuck no or hell yes.
(18:29):
And what she means by that is you have a decision and you'll have these and your listeners will have these over the next however long they live in their lives where people offer them stuff or you've got an option or you've got an opportunity. Now people sit there and go, oh, I'm not too sure make a decision. And once you make it, it's fuck no, no way. Never think about it again. Or it's a hell yes. And I'm all in. I'm both feet, I'm in the deep end, I'm going for it. And it really clears up that area where you're just a little bit grey area and a bit shady. You're either in or you're out. And I love that from Laney, obviously a seven time surf world champion and listening to people like that and all people that are successful, they've all got that same sort of attitude and they're patient and they go down some rabbit holes and they come back up and go, well, that was a waste of time. I'm going to go this way now. And eventually they'll just keep going with determination, with patience and that sort of never give up type attitude.
Brock Ashby (19:28):
Man, I love that. I was actually talking about that this weekend with my mate. I had my Bucks weekend this weekend, so we were doing all sorts of stuff. I wasn't
Gus Worland (19:37):
Congratulations brother. You got beat up through it. You've still got your moustache, you still got your eyebrows.
Brock Ashby (19:42):
Yeah, it's not wild. Me and my mates aren't, I don't drink. It wasn't your classic Aussie New Zealand Bucks weekend, just drag yourself through it. It was actually really fun. But we were talking about that idea and there's another quote while we're on the topic of quotes. The worst decision of all is none. And that comes through with your thing, the whole, you're either all the way in or you're not. And I think that's where a lot of people, if you're talking about success, whatever success is, it doesn't have to be being a millionaire. It can be being a family man that's solid, that's stable or it can be whatever you want. But yeah, a lot of successful people, whatever they define it to be, are always making decisions and just running with it anyway. If it's great, it's great. If not it's a lesson. That's right.
(20:29):
You win or you learn. It's very cheesy. You don't lose, but you learn. And I've had a tonne of those experiences in my life, but you'll see people that are hesitant and they don't make decisions or they're kind of tossing things up and they kind of get frustrated. And I think that's where that whole mental fitness thing can actually start to deteriorate. If you're not actually making decisions, you're just caught and you're stuck and you're stationary and you're idle and nothing's happening and then you get frustrated and then that frustration starts to flourish into other things. But if you just decide and go, then there's nothing to worry about except for what happens or the circumstance of that decision.
Gus Worland (21:09):
Yeah, exactly. And if you are stuck there in that no man's land and you ask for some help or support or advice or you grab a book from the library that gives you that help, that's what we're talking about is finding that mental fitness however it is for you. Some people are lonely but they don't have groups of mates like you and I have that they can, if something happened to your fiance this morning and you are not too short, you've got people you can ring, something happened to your online business, you can ring someone and say this is what's happening, and people give you advice, support, I love you Brock, I'm here for you brother. There's a lot of people that don't have that. So you need to have that village around you somehow so you aren't dealing with this stuff alone. It all comes back to not worrying alone in everything. Having that village around you and having the vulnerability and leading with vulnerability is huge. I love being able to just be real with people.
Brock Ashby (22:05):
Yeah, I actually had before when you were saying that thing about telling your friends and family that you love them. So when I was young, when I was 12, my mom passed away. So that was my own kind of struggle, but I decided at this time, so I never told my grandma, my nana that I loved her. I'll tell my dad, but it wasn't, I don't really remember intentionally saying it. Yeah,
Gus Worland (22:31):
That moment.
Brock Ashby (22:32):
And as a family, we didn't really sit down and have talks and tell each other how much we love him. It was like, why would you do that? It's a bit airy fey.
Gus Worland (22:40):
We sort of know already. I don't want to
Brock Ashby (22:41):
Have that. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I know I love my mom and all that, whatever. But after I lost my mom, even though I was 12, as I got a little bit older, may 12, 13, 14, I kind of thought, okay, I'm going to actually tell my dad I love him every time I talked to him. And I remember the first time I was sitting in the couch beside my dad and we were just watching TV and my heart was going crazy. I was like, I'm going to go to bed soon and I'm going to tell him. I was sitting there for a good 20 minutes trying to prep the moment and dad was just watching TV and I was like, alright dad, I'm going to go to bed. And he is like, all right son. And then I was standing up walking really slow to the door and I got to the door and I turned around and my heart was going crazy and I was like, love you dad. And he is like, love you son. And I was like, oh man. But it felt so good when you don't do that and then it's so nerve wracking. Even the first time I said it to my nana because she lived in Blen and we don't see each other often, but I told her I loved her and she just hung up. She was like, alright, see you. And I was like, oh man. Like a big dagger to the heart.
Gus Worland (23:45):
But I'm exactly the same with my dad. He lives in Canberra. He is got asbestos on his lungs. He's meant to have died five years ago. We had the whole early Christmas five years ago because he wasn't going to make it. Now he's got this miracle drug and whatever. So I go at the end of the call, love your dad. He goes, okay. And it's like, fuck me dad mate, come on brother, give some love. My brother's looking at me going, he's not going to say it. He's not going to say it. Stop putting yourself through all the pain. I'm like, come on. But there're different generation, so if you are dad to come back with, love your son. And that's an easier thing to say than I love you. That's the other thing actually, when I say to people say I love you to someone, it's different to love you. Love you can be a bit of a Yeah,
Brock Ashby (24:31):
Love you is like a yeah.
Gus Worland (24:33):
And you can say I got a motor mine who says love you at the end of every conversation. We're in an Uber the other day and he actually, Jude Bolton from The Swans who I do the radio show with Uber. And we go, thanks a lot mate, getting out of the cab. Have a good day. And Jude goes, love you. We get out of the car, I go, what the fuck did you say?
Brock Ashby (24:51):
What does that even
Gus Worland (24:52):
Mean? But it's a thing, right? It's just a thing that he's got used to. So I love you is a much more harder thing to say. And that normally means you need to have a moment to actually take a breath and say that and try that with your dad because it's a little more awkward. But if you get into that, then you're getting really mentally fit, like's a marathon from a half marathon, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Brock Ashby (25:18):
Yeah. Well I've actually made, Lavia is a lot easier to say, but I've actually made an effort with all my mates now, so all my mates in that say too. And it is different and it can seem a little bit emasculating if you say it and you're like, oh Lavia. And there's kind like people around you that don't really know you, it can feel a bit weird.
Gus Worland (25:37):
Fuck him though, fuck
Brock Ashby (25:38):
Him. Yeah, no, no, no, exactly.
Gus Worland (25:39):
You've got to understand that this is the new masculinity. Is there men that look like you hugging other men that look like you going, I love you brother. That is the best.
Brock Ashby (25:49):
Now we're all for it. Even at the box it was like all there. And when we're at restaurants or when we just see each other's stuff, we always do it. So yeah, massive fan of that. And I know we kind have to wrap it up, so I just kind of want to finish with just one question. What is one thing that you do every day to become better? So this is the bed with Brock podcast and I just want to throw this at the end. This podcast is all about being better and that's why this chat about mental fitness was so crucial to have here. So thanks for coming on again this morning. I know you're a busy man, but what is one thing that you personally do every day to become better?
Gus Worland (26:26):
Brock? I think my life changed about five years ago when I did the Man Up programme. I think I was living in a bit of a bubble before that. So I've certainly improved I think as a mate and a father and a husband to my family and friends. But one thing that I've sort of started a couple of years ago and now I do all the time is journaling. And the reason why I do that is because it just lets me know and focuses me, frames me up for the day because life can get quite difficult with the type of routine that I have with TV and radio, running the foundation and just trying to live my life as a bloke with a wife and three teenage children. So just squaring everything up and framing it has been really important to me. And that makes me a kinder person too, because it just takes away all the crap.
(27:15):
It makes you sort of zone in if you want focus in on the thing that's really, really important. So for me, every single day starts with a bit of meditation and some journaling that doesn't matter what time I had to be at channel nine this morning at six o'clock, which meant I have to leave the northern beaches at quarter past five, which means I get up earlier and I go to a room and I journal and I work out what the most important thing is for me today. And then I check in with people all day because I've got myself set. Setting yourself up is the absolute key. And so that has made me a better person for sure. Journaling, meditation. And that has made me a kinder person because it clears away all the crap and it focuses me on the important stuff. And at the end of the day, no matter how much money you got, like you said before in this podcast, success is evaluated in many different ways for me is having my three kids come to me, give me a hug, talk to me about the stuff that's important to them.
(28:12):
Having a wife of nearly 30 years who,
Brock Ashby (28:15):
Well congrats man,
Gus Worland (28:16):
Still wakes up next to me and wants to give me a cuddle. That's true. Success and other material stuff comes with the territory, but that's really the key.
Brock Ashby (28:30):
Awesome man. So how can people check out, got you for life, get behind what you're doing, get your merch, all that type of stuff, how can we support you?
Gus Worland (28:38):
Thanks Brock. Yeah, no, got for life.org. So that's G-O-T-C-H-A, the number four life. Got you. For life. If you just go to our socials or our website, it's got all the shop there for merch, which I think's pretty cool. Merch likes you can wear in it doesn't look too daggy. Yeah, looks good. That's cool. And then secondly, we've got lots of supporters. So if anyone listening to us a would like to support us, that would be great. But secondly, if they've got a skillset that they might be able to help us with. Like three years ago I didn't have a lawyer and a lawyer listened to something that I did on a podcast and he rang and said, look, I'll be your lawyer for free. So that saved me like $10,000. So he can't give me any money directly, but he can give me a couple of hours a month.
(29:23):
And that allows me to know that my T's and C's are being looked after. I had another person doing the same with the accounts, I can't do it myself, but how much does it cost to be audited? And I said, well, about 14 grand a year to get the audit done. He goes, well, I'll give you a $14,000 donation. He was able to do that. So there's lots of different ways you can help. But the most important thing is if anyone gets anything out of this is be as kind as you can to all the people that love you and don't worry alone. Find somehow the emotional muscle to get mentally fit to talk about your feelings. That's the key. And if anyone hears this and walks down the street and sees me one day and goes, Hey, you helped me. Well Brock, that's the best.
Brock Ashby (30:05):
That's awesome, man. What an awesome purpose and vision you have man. It's awesome to have you on the podcast. I appreciate it man. I'll put all your Instagram, your website in the details for the show notes so people can check it out if they want. But yeah, get behind it. Obviously it is an amazing cause and it's quite surprising to actually know that fact of suicide is a leading cause of death in Australians age 15 to 44, that's on your website. It was just like when you hear that, you just don't really think of it. You don't really think that that is a way that people go unless it happens to you in your world. So mate, awesome job for standing for it.
Gus Worland (30:43):
You and I have chatted for nearly 35 minutes. 70 people have phoned the ambo in this country to say that they need help and support. They've tried to take their own lives. So if that's not enough for your listeners and you and I to shape our lives and try to make it better than what else can, the stats are the stats, it's just the way that it's, and we need to do something about it. So thanks for your support mate, and thanks for everything you are doing. Best of luck with getting married. How long until you walk down the aisle
Brock Ashby (31:11):
Mate? Couple months, March 26.
Gus Worland (31:14):
Well if your fiance is anything like you, you'll have a wonderful kind life together. Just keep looking after her brother. That's the most important thing.
Brock Ashby (31:22):
Thanks mate. No, she's much better. She's much better.
Gus Worland (31:25):
Good on you Brock. Take care mate. Alright
Brock Ashby (31:27):
Mate. Thank you very much mate.
Gus Worland (31:28):
Love to you and your listeners. See you. Have
Brock Ashby (31:29):
A good day. Catch up.
Gus Worland (31:30):
You too. Bye.
Brock Ashby (31:31):
Bye.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number eight of The Better With Brock Podcast. In this podcast, I want to tackle how to set a new year resolution and succeed how to stick to it and how to achieve it. A lot of people in the fitness industry, which I completely don't understand, they throw shade at New Year resolutions. They kind of laugh at people just because gyms are busy at January, February, everyone's pumped up to make some progress to lose the weight that they gained in the holiday season, and they're like, oh, what's the point in setting them because you're just going to fail them. But I'm pro any opportunity to set a goal because it's not about achieving the goal, it's about the process of working towards the goal and what you discover in that process. Obviously you want to achieve the goal, but you can learn a lot just being on that journey.
(00:47):
And the thing about New Year resolutions is you have a lot of perspective to set these goals. Often in the holiday season, we have more time on our hands. We're on holiday, it's Christmas, it's the holiday season, it's New Year's, it's early January. We're not back at work for a while. We have more time on our hands. So we have this perspective and honest perspective of what our life is really like. We're often more well slipped because we can sleep in, we don't have to wake up and go to work. People that have kids obviously have kids, but more often than not, we have more sleep. And also with travelling, sometimes we have time on the plane, time in buses, time on trains, time in cars to just think and reflect about where your life is at. So I'm very New Year resolutions and setting them.
(01:39):
I think some people get scared of them sometimes because there is a lot of pressure and you feel like, oh, I have to set these big goals and I have to put all this pressure on myself to achieve them. But in this podcast, I want to break down away to set a goal. It's not really for specifically New Year resolutions. I just think this is a great time to set goals at the start of the year to really set your intention for the year and align your actions with what you want to achieve because I think it's just like a golf hole that you would put the ball into. If you have an idea where it is, you know where to make big moves, like on the driver, pushing down the fairway, hitting as far as you can. If that's in the right direction, you can make massive progress.
(02:26):
And then when you're doing smaller shots with the ions or out of the bunker and with your putter and chipping and all that kind of stuff, you can get a bit more detailed. But as long as you know where the hole is, you can go in that direction. So if we look at January as tee off of hole one, we know where we're driving towards. So I really like having goals and you can set more than one goal, but as long as you know what your goals are, you can get the strategy to really aim for that whole. And I want to break down the structure that I like to use, and that's very commonly used with goal setting, and that is the smart abbreviation, S-M-A-R-T. But I've made a change to smart, and it still sounds like smart, but it's S-M-A-A-T. I've replaced the R with an A, and I'm going to explain why I did that and cover that later on in the podcast.
(03:25):
But first of all, this is about goal setting, and I think if you actually spend time to understand how to set a goal correctly, you're going to have a higher chance of actually achieving these goals. So S-M-A-A-T is the abbreviation. The S stands for specific. You want the goal to be specific. An example of this is instead of just saying, I want to lose weight in 2022, I want to lose weight, you want to set a more specific goal. So in 2022, I want to lose 2.5 kg. If that's all you want to lose, it really just depends on what you're kind of going for, what your goals are. But it has to be specific. The more specific you are, the more detailed your approach can be. Because if you just say you want to lose weight, oh, I want to lose weight, then the next day you might lose a hundred grammes goal achieved.
(04:26):
But if you are like, okay, this year I'm going to lose 10 kg, then at least you know where you are aiming. You know where that hole is for the golf ball to go into. So it's specific. You have to be specific with what you want to achieve. The more specific you are, the more detailed your approach can be. And I like to say this with my clients when they are working with me and they complete the questionnaire, so I have all the information I need. I like to say, the more detailed you are with your goals, the more I can as a coach help you. The more specific I can be, the more personalised my approach can be for you. I may choose a split squat over a squat. If you don't have the mobility for a squat, if you have lower back pain, I'm not going to give you a conventional deadlift.
(05:15):
I might give you something else. So the more specific you are, the more specific your approach can be for yourself to achieve these goals. The second litter M is for measurable. Can you measure your goal? And the thing, if we stick with weight loss, if you want to lose 10 kg, yes, that's very miserable. You step on the scales and you have a point of data to refer to. And as you go throughout 2022, if you're trying to lose 10 kg, you can measure it. So you want to make sure that you can measure your goal. That's very important. There's a quote there. What is measured can be progressed, but if it's not, then it's very hard to know if you're actually making progress. When you are making progress. That is a foundation of actually motivating you when you get results, when you look at the cycle of motivation, it starts with action, and then that action will bring a certain result.
(06:17):
That result or that progress will then result in motivation, and then that motivation gives you more action. So there's the cycle that just keeps going. You take action, you get results, and then you get motivated, and that motivation drives you to more action. And then you take action again, and then you get results, you make progress, and then you get motivated. And then with that motivation, you take more action and you just keep going in a cycle. So that's why it's so important that you measure your goal, because if you don't, you won't get that sense of progress and then you won't get that motivation and then you'll stop taking action if you're not continually motivated. So measure, all right, because if you just say, I want to lose weight, and then you're just looking in the mirror every day, okay, oh, I think I lost weight.
(07:09):
I think I have. I think, yeah, I've probably lost a couple kilos. And if you never step on the scale, you never know. You never know. It's just guesswork. But this is why scientists don't do things of guesswork. They do things with data. So we need points of data to measure things, and that's not just with weight loss, obviously with other goals, there's a way to measure it. If you want to do a certain amount on the bench press, you can measure how strong you are by the weight you lift. If your goal is to get a girlfriend or get a boyfriend, maybe you can measure your success by the amount of dates and numbers you get. I'm not too sure, but when you're setting a goal, you want to make sure that you can measure it. The third letter stands for attainable. A attainable.
(08:05):
And I think it's about finding the fine line of setting a goal that's too hard and setting a goal. That's too easy. If you set a goal, that's way too hard, way too hard. I'm all about pushing yourself and pushing myself to the limit, but if you set a goal that's way too hard, that's actually going to result in less motivation because you won't be making progress towards it. It's just too far away. It's too far away. You can't achieve it. But if you set one that's too easy, you achieve it tomorrow, then it's like, oh, well I achieved my goal, but it was too easy, like what's next? So you need to find that fine line of finding something that's hard and something that's not too easy, but something that's challenging enough to keep you in the game. So for example, if we stick with this 10 kg weight loss idea and we're trying to lose 10 kg, maybe in your head you first thought eight kg, but then you're like, oh, I could probably do better than that.
(09:15):
If I really applied myself, I could probably lose 10. If I went for 15, I don't think I could get that. I don't have 15 kg to lose, I have 10 to lose. That's that kind of fine line that keeps you in the game. So it's very specific to the goal that you're setting, but if you are trying, you just need something that's going to be just enough. It's just out of your reach. It's that carrot dangling just in front of you. You can almost grab it, but you can't. It requires a lot from you. If you set a goal that's too easy for you, you'll probably achieve it straight away, or you'll just be like, well, what's the point? This is too easy. I could do this in my sleep. Then that isn't a good goal to set. You need to set one that challenges you, okay?
(09:58):
You need to set one that challenges you. I would rather you set a goal that's too hard than too easy. So I'm always on the side of setting a bigger goal than you think you can achieve just because it's going to stretch you. And in that stretch is where you grow in whatever goal that is, whether that's running a business, whether that's buying a house, whether that's losing a certain amount of kg on the scales. If you set a goal that's a bit too hard for you, you'll push your boundaries. And I think as a human, it's important that we can continue to challenge ourself, always stay the same. I'm not a big fan of, oh, you can just cruise through life. I think you're either getting better or you're getting worse. And if you're not challenging that limit to your potential, then you're getting worse.
(10:43):
It sounds harsh, but it's the truth. And if you're not pushing yourself with goals that really challenge you, then you'll never get to a place where you're changing and where you're continually making progress. So the first A stands for attainable. I'm a big fan of setting goals that are much harder than you think you can achieve. Then setting, then setting them too low. I wrote this quote down while I was thinking about this podcast. Setting goals are like a dartboard. You aim for the bullseye, but you take what you get and it's just a picture. So you can see, yes, you always aim. You are aiming for the bullseye, so you're aiming for the best possible result. Even though if you're a really big fan of darts, you know that it's the triple 20, so you get 60. But anyway, you aim for the bullseye, but as long as you throw the dart, as long as you are pursuing your goal and giving it your best, you will still get something.
(11:47):
So if you don't get the 10 kg, at least you get eight or at least you get five. But it's about the process of applying yourself to that goal, the journey, not the outcome, the process, not the outcome, that type of thing. An attainable goal, but really a challenging goal. That's the one that's going to help you to become better. The second A, we've done S, we've done M, we've done the second. A stands for anchor, and I've replaced this with the R for setting smart goals and R was realistic or something like that, but I wanted to take that out. Sorry. Relevant, relevant, the are stand for relevant. But I think if you set a relevant goal, any goal that you think of is going to be relevant to you because that's what matters to you at the time. So I kind of assume that you're going to set a relevant goal for your life because you are thinking of it.
(12:45):
If someone gives you a goal, it's probably not relevant because they thought about it and gave it to you. But if you are setting a goal, of course it's going to be relevant to you. So I've replaced that assumed that, and the A that I want to put there instead stands for anchor. And I think this is one of the most crucial points or setting a goal. You need to tie your goal to an anchor that's going to make it stay, that's going to make it stick around in your life and want you to actually achieve it. And what I mean by an anchor is just having something that actually commits you to the goal and it dives deep into your motivational driver, but also why you want to achieve the goal. If you kind of don't really want to achieve the goal, you won't do it. You've set a million goals in your life and there's a tonne that you haven't achieved, and you know why? Because you didn't care about it enough, but the goals that you really cared about, you achieved because the anchor was heavy and it kept you in the game.
(13:54):
The biggest anchor that I've seen in people's lives as their personal trainer is when they get a health scare because the anchor that's keeping them in the gym in sticking to their diet and them actually sticking to this healthy way of living is because they've been told by their doctor, if you keep doing this, you're going to die. If you don't lose weight, you're going to die. If you continue eating, if you continue drinking like this, continue smoking like this or taking drugs like this, you are going to die in less than a year. If someone gets that goal, that anchor is heavy, like, man, I have to achieve this goal. I have to lose 10 kg because if I don't, I'm literally going to die. Now, this is an extreme example, but this is a strong anchor and that's going to drive you to achieve this goal.
(14:44):
It's going to keep you in it. Now, I don't want you to get to the point where you get so overweight that you're about to die and then you have to lose weight that way. But think of something that really impacts you, that has a hold on you that's going to keep you in the game and commit yourself to that goal. Tie that to the goal. If you love your kids and you want to be around for your kids, set an anchor. I want to lose 10 kg because I want to show my kids what it's like to live a healthy life. Really simple one. Or if you are wanting to improve for sport, let's say you're a rugby player, I want to improve my bench press so that I can be stronger on the paddock and have stronger fans when I'm running with the ball.
(15:31):
That's very specific, that's measurable and that's an anchor because if you really care about your sport and care about progressing into better teams and becoming a better player, then that's going to keep you in the game. When I was younger and I lost my mom at a young age, she was my anchor. I wanted to achieve things to make her proud. I wanted to do things in her name, in her remembrance. So for me, I was driven like crazy. That was the biggest anchor I could ever have. And you don't have to lose someone to have that anchor. Everyone cares about something. Maybe it's your wife, maybe it's your fiance, it's your kids, it's your nephew, it's your niece, maybe, I don't know. It's your job. You are like, I want to progress to this next job, so get a pay rise or get a promotion so that I can buy a house for my family and provide for them.
(16:27):
I don't know, maybe that's your anchor. You want to be a real provider for your family. I'm just throwing things out here, but it's going to help you think laterally because if you just set a goal but you don't really care about it, you know should achieve it, but you don't really care, then you're not going to stay in the game and be driven to achieve it. The last one is T for time specific. And that kind of comes down to being specific, but having a time on the back end of a goal is very important. So I want to lose 10 kg in 2022. There we go. It's time specific. I want to have a stronger bench press in three months.
(17:07):
A certain time specific thing is just mainly putting a date on the end of a goal so that there's a timeline. And once again, just like the golf hole at the end of the course, you can work back from it. And one of the time specific, I guess foundations that I use is with my built by Brock eight week challenges. I could have just kept it a membership and just said, guys, join built by Brock. You get new monthly workouts, you get customised nutrition guidance, you get educational videos, you get a Facebook support group, you get live coaching calls, you get all the stuff. But instead of just sticking to that, I thought to myself,
(17:48):
I know that when people have a timeline, a deadline, they really go for it. So I was like, well, if we do challenges all the time, then we have these eight week blocks where we can really apply ourselves in these eight week challenges. So we can say to ourself, Hey, I want to lose three kgs in this eight weeks. Bang, Hey, I want to build a kilo of muscle and take my deadlift from 200 pounds to two 50 pounds in this eight week block. Maybe that's your goal, but if there's no time specific ending, then it could just go on forever. Oh, I want to lose weight. I want to have a stronger bench press, and that's it. Oh yeah, I want to be healthy. Well, when do you want to be healthy by? I want to stop relying on my medication that I take for my cholesterol by the end of this year.
(18:42):
With that time specific goal, you have a timeline that you can work backwards from, and that's super important when you're setting goals or else you can just glide through life. And I was on a podcast just before this with my friend and Julie from New Zealand, and this quote came to my mind, if you don't take control of life, life will take control of you. And that's the same with goal settings, with goal setting, sorry. If you don't set goals, people will set goals for you or life will just go by you. So you have to be intentional with how you spend your time, how you spend your days, what you're working towards or else people will just put things in front of you or life will just throw itself at you and then you'll look back. Five years have gone and you haven't done anything that you want to do, which to me is just a waste of five years.
(19:38):
Not that It's about achieving things and being Mr. Productive or Mrs. Productive in it and changing the world. Not everyone wants to have this huge ambitious drive or this big change in the world. Some people just want to enjoy life, enjoy their family, do this, do that, and that's awesome. But coming back to what was my big anchor was losing my mom once I saw that not everything's guaranteed and you don't have everyday promise to you. I was like, well, I'm going to live every day as if it were my last. Very cheesy, but very true. And from that, I've achieved things that I've wanted to do as opposed to just letting life happen. Life will always happen regardless if you're chasing a goal or not, life is going to happen. Things will come, curve, balls will be thrown your way, hardships are going to come your way, struggles, but also successes and celebrations. All these things will come your way regardless if you do anything or not. So you may as well be striving for something in the meantime to really keep you locked in and purpose driven. There's a great
(20:46):
Quote, James, clear. I read his book Atomic Habits last year, and it says, you do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. And that's one of the biggest faults when people are goal setting, they set these goals, these crazy ambitious goals, these awesome goals, specific goals, measurable goals, attainable goals. Goals that have an anchor that keeps their skin in the game and time specific goals, but they don't set anything in place to actually achieve them. And that brings me to another quote. A goal without a plan is only a dream. Alright? So a lot of people set these new year resolutions or these goals and they're just dreams because there's actually no strategy to get there. I also read this quote, hope is not a strategy, which is a great one just to keep in the back of your mind that if you're just like, oh, I hope for the best.
(21:42):
That's not a strategy. That's not how people achieve things. That's not how people win Super Bowls or how people build big businesses. They don't just go, I hope it works out. There's some people out there that are lucky and talented, but it wasn't hope there was a strategy behind it. But if you set a goal, let's come back to the original goal that we talked about. If you set a goal of losing 10 kg and you just go, oh, I hope it works, but you have no idea what a calorie deficit is, you have no idea how many calories you burn or how many you need to consume, or you don't have a resistance training programme in place or any people to keep you accountable to that goal and you have no anchor, then it's most likely that you're not going to achieve that goal because you don't, once again, to come back to the quote, you don't rise to the level of your goal.
(22:32):
Just because you set a big goal does not mean it's guaranteed, but you fall to the level of your systems. So if you have those systems in place, yes, you can probably achieve that goal, but you have to have them first. And that's why what I do as an online personal trainer, I create those systems for people, how many calories they consume, what sort of workouts they're doing, and then there's educational content about how much sleep you should be getting, how much water you should be drinking, what supplements you should be taking or could be taking, what amount of steps you should be having for your goal, and what's the importance of steps. There's a tonne of educational videos I have out there for them, but it's so that they can have these systems in place as opposed to just setting random goals and just doing another workout challenge and oh, I did well in the first four weeks and then it just failed away and I just kind of forgot about it.
(23:29):
That's what we don't want with New year resolutions. We don't just want to set a new year resolution or a goal that just kind of fades in goes by. I would rather you set more goals than just one. I like that idea. As I was saying before, setting goals that are just a bit too hard. If you set 10 goals for this new year resolution, all right, this year I want to do this, and you only achieve eight, that's eight more than zero. And if you only achieve five, that's five more than zero, at least you've set them. At least you've had that intention to achieve something and to do something and take control of your life as opposed to life take control of you. I've been reading this book called Think Fast. Think Fast and Slow, or think Fast, think slow.
(24:19):
And I forgot who the author was. I'll just quickly find out. I don't want to get it wrong. It's quite a long book, but it's very good Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. And he talked about this idea of studies that they did with priming, okay, with priming. So what that kind of meant was when they did, so they had these people doing a study and they were in a room and they answered certain questions and they had to do with elderly people. They had words like age and elderly, and the topic was of elderly people. They showed that when these people did this test where old age and elderly was primed in their conscious and subconscious mind, they walked slower when they came out of the room. Then they did this other one where I'm not sure if it was, I'm probably butchering this, but if they did it a normal test and then an old test, and then on the old test they walked slower or they had two different people, two different rooms where one was a room of people doing old things and one was people just doing normal things than the people that did the old things walked slower out, they acted more elderly.
(25:42):
But you kind of get the point of what I'm shooting out here. And they did another one with money. So they primed the room with money, images of money, questions of money, and putting random pieces of money in the room, stuff like that. And they showed that the people were shown to be more selfish. They were less likely to help other people when they needed help. When they dropped pencils on the floor, the people were less likely to help them, and they were more independent, so more to themselves, a bit more selfish. And that's not saying that all rich people or people that are associated with money are selfish and don't help people, but it showed that they were kind of out there for themselves to kind of get money, and that kind of primed their mind without them being aware of it. And this ties back into having goals and setting them and being aware of them.
(26:40):
Because when you set these goals, and I like to read my goals every I've said on a podcast before I do this thing called a thank bank, where I talk about the things I'm grateful for, I declare things or attributes that I want to be or that I want to have, and then I read all my goals out, my long-term goals, my short-term goals, what I want to achieve, et cetera. And then I read some quotes at the end. But those daily reading of goals prime me to be out to achieve them. They're in my subconscious that even in my conscious mind, I'm thinking about them. And it's important that you read them out as well. I think when you're setting these goals, because if you read them, you're priming yourself to achieve them, you're kind of putting them in the back of your mind, whether you're aware of it or not, you are going to gravitate towards the idea of these goals and what you need to achieve them.
(27:38):
It's kind of like the secret, the law of attraction. And I don't believe in just sitting in your room and just dreaming or manifesting your dreams into reality. But I do think that when thoughts or goals or ideas are at the forefront of your mind, you take action towards them, whether you know it or not. So that's really all I wanted to cover in this podcast was just goal setting, right? I was meant to do this in the first week of January, but I ended up having to self isolate for 10 days or a week at home because I ended up catching covid and I was at home. I wasn't feeling the best, so I kind of had to wait for a time to do this. And I know that this is coming out in February, but I know that there's a lot of people still hanging onto their New Year resolution, so hopefully this can be a gust of wind in your sails to keep pushing.
(28:32):
Or if you didn't sit goals at the start of the year, because I don't know, maybe some fitness guy said that they're stupid and you're like, oh, yeah, they're stupid, or you wanted to set them, but you just haven't had the time yet. I encourage you to set goals, all right? It doesn't have to be a new year resolution. It can be anything, but make them smart goals. S-M-A-A-T, smart, specific, miserable, attainable, anchored, and time specific. These goals will help you achieve goals instead of just saying, oh, yeah, that's what I want to do. But then you have no plan. Number one, set your goals. Number two, make sure you have a plan to achieve those goals. And if you have fitness goals, obviously I would welcome you and Team Brock Ashby. You can jump on team brock ashby.com, check out my plans. You can jump on my Instagram, Lincoln bio. All that stuff is there. I can help you inbuilt by Brock or the 16 week mail guide. Actually, this week I just released a 12 week training programme for beginners only. So if you are a beginner, when you get that programme, you get the gym access programme and the home
(29:40):
Training programme as well. So if you go into lockdown, I got you covered. If gyms open up after lockdown, I got you covered with that as well, and it's men and women. But just wanted to let you know that that is available for you. If you are a beginner, and let's say you have a new year resolution of building some muscle, dropping some body fat, going to the gym or working out at home, or just being healthy and improving your life, then that can be a great way to start. But I appreciate you listening to this podcast. I hope it helps. If you have any questions, you can DMM me. You can send 'em through an email team@teambroadcast.com. Let me know if you have any questions you want me to cover on the podcast or any guests that you want me to have on and have a chat after this episode.
(30:26):
I did have an awesome chat this week with Gus Walland, the founder of the Gotcha for Life Foundation, and his goal and his mission is improving people's mental fitness and getting suicide down to zero here in Australia. So that was an awesome chat that will be up after this episode. Much love guys. Stay safe. Hope this helps you set some awesome goals and actually achieve some stuff. I really am serious about that. Take control of your life. Don't let life control you because life will happen anyway, right? It's like when people are like, oh, should I study for three years? Nah, three years is a long time. I'm like, mate, just study because three years will go anyway. Whether you study or not, you're going to get three years older, so just do it. All right? I'm a big fan of that. Alright guys, much love. I'll talk to you soon. See you.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number seven of the Better with Brock podcast. My name is Brock Ashby and today I'm going to take you through how to manage your nutrition through the holiday season. I've got eight tips to take you through and I'm going to just jump straight into it. It's Christmas Eve one day until Christmas, so there couldn't be a better time to give you these tips. So number one, set a goal and be clear about that goal. So many people get frustrated around Christmas time, the holiday season, new Year's, new Year resolutions because of the progress that they don't make. So what I want to encourage you to do is set a goal and be clear about it. Do you want to continue to lose body fat during this holiday season? Do you want to maintain your weight or do you want to gain a bit of weight and really enjoy yourself?
(00:54):
Personally, I prefer to dial my calories up to maintenance if I'm in a fat loss phase or even go into a surplus phase where I just gain a bit of body fat because it's a time where we're sitting around the table, we're laughing. I don't personally drink, but people are drinking. We're catching up with people that we maybe haven't seen for a while and we're just kind of winding back and we want to enjoy those foods. It's also a time where there's certain foods that are out that aren't usually out. We don't usually have Turkey every night. We don't have a roast every night. We don't have these Christmas puddings around. Some people make cookies, some people make gingerbread houses. There's these things out there that we want to have to enjoy and it adds to the fun of Christmas as opposed to it just being a dinner or a lunch or a breakfast.
(01:46):
It might be throughout our weekly routine. Food, I believe is what kind of brings us together. So what I like to do is change my goalposts, so I like to move them to maintenance, and I think that's a really great place to sit throughout the holiday season and it also, like I was leaning towards before, takes the pressure off dropping body fat and creating a calorie deficit and potentially tracking your calories and weighing your food. All that kind of stress that is caused by that, which some people experience will not be there and trying to diet through Christmas is possible. I've done it when I was really early in my lifting career, if you want to call it that. I would weigh my food. My birthday is actually New Year's Eve, so I would try and get a protein cheesecake. I remember my brother and his wife and their family made me a protein cheesecake and looking back at that, they thought I was crazy and looking back at it now, I'm like, man, what a dick. Just have a cake man. Who cares about your macros? It's your birthday, man. Have a real cheesecake.
(02:58):
I was really kind, obsessed, and I guess fixated on the process of muscle building and getting lean and I was avoiding carbohydrates. I didn't have much knowledge, but I was just so passionate and I looked back and I was like, man, that probably wasn't the best decision. Yeah, I enjoyed the protein cheesecake, but was it because I thought it was good for me because it was high in protein or was it because I actually enjoyed the taste And that's one thing I actually used to struggle with was eating food just because it was fuel as opposed to I actually feel like this and I'm enjoying it, and now I really actually enjoy food. I drink coffee because I enjoy it. I don't just drink it because it's a caffeine head and it pumps me up. I eat yoghourt in the morning because it's convenient. It's really fast and I think it tastes delicious.
(03:45):
I have a really simple diet, but I actually enjoy the food. I don't just think food is fuel. I'm a robot. I just need to fuel my body for my workouts, and I think that that's a pretty dangerous place to go for your relationship with food if you're just pursuing it like a robot. Anyway, I'm kind of getting off topic. This is going to be a very quick podcast, so I want to stay on track, but make sure you set that goal. Make sure you're aware of what you're heading for throughout this holiday season. You don't have to sit down and write the pros and cons of every goal and kind of break it down. It's Christmas, it's holiday season, just relax a bit. But I think being a bit more lenient with your goals and with your body fat and with your training is a good idea.
(04:26):
Around this time, most likely you won't have time for as many workouts as you'd like to get. You probably won't be as active as you would like to be, although going for walks and stuff like that is definitely doable. Actually, that depends on where you are in the world. Quite a lot of people. Actually the biggest audience that I have listening to this podcast is based in the USA and it's snowing over there. Sometimes it's freezing, so you probably won't be active over there. But over here in Australia and growing up in New Zealand, Christmas time is summertime. We have barbecues. We go down to lakes and we swim. We go to the beach, we catch some waves. It's super fun. Having a summer Christmas is awesome, but it does encourage us to be a bit more active because it's hot. The weather allows us to go for walks to be active, maybe play sport down at the park and kind of hang out with the family.
(05:19):
But if you are in a country or in a place in the world where it's actually cold, then you probably won't be as active as you are, so you probably won't expend as many calories and you're probably going to consume a bit more calories. So not that it's impossible to diet through Christmas, but just be realistic that you probably won't be moving as much. You probably will be eating more than usual, maybe drinking more alcohol than usual, maybe sleeping a bit less. You want to catch up with your friends and family, so just be aware. So yeah, as I said, I like to just maintain and enjoy myself, but I do have some more tips later on that will help you for any goal that have. The second point I want to bring up is one hot day doesn't make a summer, and I want to break that down because it's just like our diet.
(06:07):
So a summer is made up of consecutive hot days. One hot day, one blistering hot day, no matter how hot it will be, will not dictate a summer just because you have one hot day. It's the consistent trend of hot days that make a summer and it's like a diet. If you have one bad day on your diet, that does not mean your diet is terrible and you need to just give up because it's the worst thing ever. One hot day doesn't make a summer, one bad diet doesn't make a bad diet. I like to look at it like a golf game. One bad shot does not mean your 18 holes are doomed. You still have so many shots to redeem yourself, and it's like in a day when you're eating, you have one bad meal, it's fine. Just get back on the horse for the next couple of meals and kind of regain traction and focus on the positives and get back onto the goal that you've set around the holiday season.
(07:07):
Just because you have one meal or maybe you get absolutely plastered one night and you just drink too much, don't worry about it. Everyone's getting plastered at the moment. I'm not saying that you need to go and get smashed, but it's a time of the year where we are enjoying ourselves, where we're around friends and family. Don't worry about what you do between the 25th of December of 2021 and the 31st of December, 2021. That's six days out of 365. You have 359 more days to correct anything that you do in six days. It's not anything to worry about. So one hot day doesn't make a summer could go for that entire period from Christmas to New Year's where we kind of get a bit loose and eat a bit too much, maybe drink a bit too much sleep a bit less, don't work out as much. It's six days like worry about what you do from January 1st to December 24th, 2022.
(08:06):
That is what you should be worrying about. So many people fixate over these six days like, oh, I'm such a bad person. I failed my diet. Oh, I got drunk so much. Oh, I didn't sleep at all. Seriously, there's bigger things to worry about. Enjoy yourself and then just worry about what the repercussions are in the new year. When you are full of motivation, you've got a bit more time and everything like that. So that's the second point. Don't stress if you muck up, just get back on the horse. That's the best kind of advice I'd give around that. Number three, get that protein on your plate. Christmas, ham, Christmas, Turkey, whatever it is, protein is the most satiating macronutrient. It makes you feel full. If you just eat a plate of chicken breast, you will get very full. If you just eat Christmas ham, you will get very full.
(08:55):
It's when we go to the other foods that we kind of tend to overeat. The cakes, the donuts, the cheesecake, the ice cream, this stuff is high in carbs and fats. It's super palatable, high in sugar and enjoyable. I'm not saying you can't eat that stuff. I love ice cream. I'm a huge advocate of ice cream. I love it, but it doesn't make up most of my diet. I like the 80 20 rule, 80% nutritious food, 20% delicious food. I've heard other people say 80% whole food, 20% soul food, however you want to look at it. There is a balanced approach that you can take, but if you prioritise protein that's going to satiate you, it's also going to help you hit your protein levels, which is going to be good for maintaining your muscle mass throughout this kind of time where you may be working out less.
(09:47):
But if you kind of stack up on protein first and you eat that first, like protein and vegetables too, your non-starchy vegetables such as if there's any around asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, greens, like salads, carrots, these things are pretty low on calorie. So if you hit your protein first and then get some non-starchy vegetables or vegetables just in general on your plate as well, that's going to fill you up a bit more. With fibre, you'll still be hungry and excited enough to eat the 20% delicious foods, the soul food, the enjoyable foods. However, you probably won't go too crazy and go into a crazy surplus where you gain tonnes of body fat. Once again, if you do, there's no big deal. There's no drama, but just kind of trying to help you out here. If you are conscious that you do want to enjoy yourself, but you also still want to be relatively sticking towards a healthy diet that you enjoy eating.
(10:43):
Number four, this has nothing to do with fitness, but eat nostalgic foods. As I said before, Christmas is a time where there's foods out that aren't usually out throughout the year, so just enjoy yourself. I grew up eating my Nana's trifle. It's absolutely delicious. Her trifle, I don't know what she put in it, but it was amazing. And every Christmas I spent with my nana and my family back in New Zealand up in Blenheim, shout out to B Town if that was there. I was just eating so many bowls of it. I did not follow my advice of eating protein first and doing all that stuff. I'll just go straight for the trifle. I absolutely loved it, but it made me so happy. It made me feel like it was Christmas, it was holidays. I was like, this is awesome. I'm just going to swim. I'm going to sleep in.
(11:32):
We're going to open some prisons, going to give some prisons away. It was just awesome. So don't be afraid to eat these foods that really feel like home to you, real Christmas foods or foods that you're like, oh man, I'd really like to try that. I haven't had that before. Just give it a go. It adds to the experience of the holiday season, and it's not like you have to eat these foods, but if you just want to stick to foods that you know and you enjoy and that's going to help you stick to your diet, then that's fine. But I really do find that having these foods around this time does add to the experience. And once again, we're not just robots that are calories in versus calories out machines. Food brings us excitement. Food makes us happy, so don't be afraid to eat these sort of foods.
(12:17):
Number five, be as active as possible. Go for walks instead of driving somewhere. Maybe you can walk, you can bike. If you do feel like working out, just get a workout in. People understand if you do want to bring some resistance bands, if you're going travelling, then do that. That's completely cool. You can work out whilst you're on holiday. Some people don't like to just take completely two weeks off, that's also fine. But if you want to train, you can. If you want to take some dumbbells and take a bench, do what you want, go pay a casual visit to some gyms just to work out, that's completely cool as well, but just be as active as possible. It's not so much to bring up your calorie expenditure and help you burn more calories, although it will. It's more like humans feel good when you move, when you walk, when you hit your 10,000 steps, you feel great.
(13:11):
Play some sports. You don't necessarily have to go and do pushups and pullups outside, play with your little nephew, play throws with your brother, play basketball with your sister. Do these types of things and just to kind of help you stay active and kind of just not feel like a s slob over Christmas time. Sometimes you can get two or three days deep and you're like, oh man, I feel pretty sluggish. So just being active throughout the day when you can does help with that. Number six, drink water. Sometimes we mistake hunger for thirst, so if you are hydrated, you'll know that when you're eating you're probably going to be hungry. But if you're reaching for food, just because maybe check if you're thirsty, if you are, have a drink and maybe that will settle it. If you're still hungry, then you are probably just hungry.
(13:57):
But being hydrated does help. It also helps you feel better. Some people get headaches when they're dehydrated. Some people just forget because having so much fun hanging out with friends and playing and stuff like that that we forget to drink water, but that's just kind of a small thing on the side to drink water. One thing I like to tell my clients in team, bro Ashby is just you want your pea to be pretty much clear, like a real faint yellow. If it's a really bright yellow, then yeah, you should be hydrated and that will help you just kind of feel a bit better throughout the day. You don't have to walk around with those big gallon bottles and be sculling them all day and peeing all day. That's not fun.
(14:44):
Going to the bathroom to pee 24 7 is a chore and it actually ruins your whole experience your day, whether it's Christmas or not. But yeah, that will definitely help you feel better. So there's a couple other points. Daily calorie back loading and weekly calorie back loading that I'm going to jump into really quickly because I do have to jump off and go and enjoy Christmas Eve. Daily calorie back loading is when you kind of eat less in the morning to save your calories for later on in the day. So if you are having a Christmas dinner, you might go a bit lighter on breakfast, a bit lighter at lunch, maybe cut out your snacks that you usually have, so you have this big plethora of calories to enjoy your Christmas dinner with. So let's say you have 2000 calories usually, and you usually break them up to 500 calorie meals.
(15:31):
You have four of them that makes up your calories. You could have 300 calories for breakfast, maybe 200 for lunch, and then you've only eaten 500 calories throughout the day, which sounds like you are starving yourself, but you're not. You kind of have this mindset of, well, I'm going to eat less because later on I'm going to stick to my calories. I want to have 1500 and that is heaps of calories to make me feel full, enjoy my food, have a couple of glasses of wine, have a donut, and I'm going to be cool. So that's just one example. You can do one thing. I will say, if you are going to daily calorie back load, keep that protein high throughout the day. I like to have high protein breakfast in the morning, high protein lunch, and kind of leave my fats and carbs till the evening because those are the macros that we generally enjoy our food with.
(16:13):
So like donuts, our fats and carbs, cake, fats and carbs. So kind of eat your protein early so that you can enjoy the foods later on. So that is kind of going by the rule of flexible dieting, but also daily energy expenditure is kind of how we determine if we lose fat or body fat. Law of thermodynamics, if you eat in a deficit, you'll lose weight, but it's about your overall calories. So if your calories are at a certain number, that is where you're going to lose fat or eat at maintenance or eat in a surplus. The amount of calories determines that. It's not if you have 300 in the morning, 200 for lunch and then eat this massive meal at dinner, that doesn't mean if you eat heaps after dark, you are going to store it as body fat as you sleep. We know that that's not correct.
(17:05):
It's about how many calories you eat throughout the entire day, not when you have it within the day. So hopefully that makes sense. Lastly, weekly calorie back loading, weekly calorie back loading is when, let's say Christmas is on Saturday, you kind of eat less throughout Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then Saturday, Sunday maybe you add in calories. So if you had a 2000 budget, maybe from Monday to Friday, you had 1500. So it's going to give you an extra 2,500 calories to add onto Saturday and Sunday. So that's kind of like saving to spend in the weekend. So that is one of the approaches that I like to use for my clients. Small little plug here. Once again, if you do want to coach with me,
(17:48):
Team Ashby, team brock ashby.com is the website or follow me on Instagram at Brock Ashby, that's where you find me. But my clients, that's one thing that I really like to reiterate is daily calorie back clothing and weekly calorie back clothing, especially when you're going away for events and through the holiday season, this is going to be super crucial. So if you know Christmas, you're going to go quite higher on your calories. Maybe on Christmas Eve like today, you'll have less calories. Let's go back to you have 2000 calories a day. Maybe you have 1500 so that you can have 2,500 on Saturday, which is Christmas day, and you can enjoy the amount of calories that you're going for. So your daily calories or weekly calories are not impacted by you enjoying yourself. I know this is a quick podcast that's probably only going to be around 15 to 20 minutes.
(18:42):
That's going to be it guys. I'm going to be pumping some more out next year, maybe even before the new year as well. But thank you for listening to the podcast. It would be amazing if you could jump on any of the platforms and give me a review. It really helps me out and on Instagram, if you follow me at brock spi, send me some dms on what topics you'd like to hear or maybe guess who wants to have on, and I'll definitely take that into consideration. Alright guys. Merry Christmas, hope you enjoy your family and friends. Thank you.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to episode number six of the Better with Brock podcast. I have Katie, is it still Katie Gilchrist?
Katie Gilchrist (00:00:08):
Yeah, Katie Gilchrist.
Brock Ashby (00:00:10):
I have Katie Gilchrist here with me. We actually worked together first in Sydney at Fitness First when I was a personal trainer. Now she's relocated to the uk and we are going to talk about her transformation initially and then kind of dive into a bit of her story, which is very inspiring. I was a part of it early on and it's progressed from there, and I guess it'll be a very insightful conversation. Even as I said, I find it very inspiring. But yeah, we'll dive into that later on. But first of all, Katie, thanks for staying up tonight. It's eight 20 over there.
Katie Gilchrist (00:00:51):
Yeah, eight 30, which probably doesn't sound very late to you listeners. They're probably like, what are you talking about, buck?
Brock Ashby (00:00:57):
That's late for me. Even sometimes Kiki and I have dinner at about 5:00 PM and we are like, yeah, let's just have dinner and just call it a night early. Guess late.
Katie Gilchrist (00:01:08):
It's late for me. Yeah, I struggle to stay a awake past 8 30, 9 o'clock at a push now.
Brock Ashby (00:01:15):
Alright, we got seven minutes. Let's make this one good. So I wanted to chat first about your transformation. So we ended up working together when I was a face-to-face personal trainer. So I was relatively new to the game, I guess in personal training. Well, I'd done it in New Zealand. I had done it in the Gold Coast, but when I was in Sydney, I met you relatively early on in my time at Fitness First, but we managed to lose 7.7 kg. I dug up the statistics and we lost. We lost 14 centimetres on your waist, which was awesome. And the thing I loved about you when we were working together is you were just really fixated on being strong.
Katie Gilchrist (00:02:02):
Yeah. And the 7.7 kg was fat because we had the two DEXA scans. Do you remember? There was no loss of muscle.
Brock Ashby (00:02:13):
I do remember that conversation now. Sorry, that really slipped my mind. Alright, let me say that again. 7.7 kg fat loss, not weight loss. There's a difference. There is a difference. So yeah, as I was saying, you were really fixated on being strong, which I really love because especially as a female, just because there's so much, oh, women only do cardio because that's how you lose weight. Or that was like men do the weights and the girls. And I was always trying to get my clients, my female clients on the side of lifting weights. It doesn't make you bulky and all this kind of stuff. So why were you so fixated on that and how did you not think, oh, I need to do cardio to lose fat? What was your mindset around that?
Katie Gilchrist (00:03:06):
Well, actually years ago, that is what I thought. I didn't know any different. So before I moved to Australia, I did go to a gym and I did treadmill and I did a few 10 kss. I did a half marathon and I hated it, but I didn't know what other exercise women did. And then I moved to Australia, I decided to join a gym and I thought I'll go along to a few cardio classes. And this is, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I actually really hurt my back in that body pump class actually, because I had no training and they were just like, here, lift all these weights really quickly.
Brock Ashby (00:03:46):
Exactly. Anyway, yeah, I posted about that actually yesterday on my stories about group classes. Someone was like, should I do group classes? And I was like, the times that I've done them, I was forced to do them by my personal training manager. So I get a feel for it and I hated it. But when I was a PT and I kind of peeked through the door, I was like, that is a room full of potential injuries just waiting to happen. You're squatting straight away, straight away, you're doing complex exercises when there's about 50 people in the class, they can't really watch you. And it's about sticking to the tempo. So you've got to go as fast as possible, mix really fast and relatively heavy with bad form week in, week out. It's not good.
Katie Gilchrist (00:04:29):
Yeah, no. So I did actually really hurt my back doing that, but with the Fitness First membership, I got some free PT sessions. So I went along today with no intention of continuing, and I met my trainer called Steve, and he introduced lifting to me and then I kind of carried on the PT with him. And I think if it wasn't for him introducing deadlifts and squats and things to me, I wouldn't have known about 'em or carried on. I'd never would've thought myself, let's go and try and learn what all those dudes are doing over there. That looks fun.
(00:05:09):
And it took a long time for me to get comfortable in gym. And I remember going up one day looking through the window and it's really, really full. And I was just like, nah, turn around and left. I texted Steve and I said, this isn't for me. I can't do it. I had a complete meltdown, complete panic attack, and he spent an hour texting me and trying to get to the bottom of what was wrong. And I just said, well, I'm worried that I won't know how to use the equipment. So he just went over and over the equipment with me. And then after our session one day, he just went, right, do all that again by yourself. See you next week. Bye. What's off? And just left me.
Brock Ashby (00:05:47):
Alright. You remember that?
Katie Gilchrist (00:05:49):
I remember. But it worked and I was really frightened, but I went round and did all the same things that we'd just done again. And that kind of set me off on my way. And then I moved into CrossFit for about six months and I really enjoyed it, but I hated the cardio. And then I started to miss lifting in a controlled manner. I was like, this is silly. We're sorry, anyone who loves CrossFit, but we had to do really heavy lifting but really fast. And I think basically I tried it, I loved it, and then I started to not love it. And that's when I was like, well, I want to go back to the gym. So I came back to fitness first. And then first, somebody had been talking about you at work, and so I got in touch with you, so I kind of came to you a little bit prepped to do lifting. And I remember coming to you and I'm like, want to do dead lifts? Don't want to do cardio. You were like, great,
Brock Ashby (00:06:52):
This sounds great. Yeah. Well, as I said, I was always trying to convince people that they don't need to do that because even though today it's a bit of a dated thing to think that you have to do cardio to lose weight, I think the calorie deficit chat is getting very popular. People are kind of aware that you need to create that. It's not just about going for a run and trying to lose fat that way. But then I still talk to people that are like, yeah, I'm running. I'm trying to lose weight and I'm, it's still out there. So it's always a kind of challenge for me to try and beat that out of people and say, you don't have to do that. And now, especially after us working together, I could say to ladies, look at Katie, she lost almost a KG and we didn't do one minute of cardio, which is don't
Katie Gilchrist (00:07:44):
Think I ever run for a bus, to be honest.
Brock Ashby (00:07:47):
You're like, it's not worth it. I'm going to lose muscle if I do that,
Katie Gilchrist (00:07:51):
I'll get the next one. Don't worry.
Brock Ashby (00:07:54):
But we didn't really focus on it and we just focused on getting strong and we just focused on calories, which was a big one for you. Tracking calories and being aware of how much you were eating and
Katie Gilchrist (00:08:08):
Portion sizes. I mean, it wasn't about eating salad, which was really good. It was about just reducing the portion size a bit and being mindful of how many calories are in that full fat milk latte. You're having all those kind of hidden calories. And I was hungry for a bit, but that's okay. It's okay if you're a bit hungry.
Brock Ashby (00:08:29):
Yeah, I think that's one thing that you have to understand when you're dieting as well. A lot of people will start dieting, get hungry and go, oh, it's not meant to be like this. I need to eat more starving. It's like, well, you kind of have to get used to that feeling in your stomach that's like, okay, I'm a bit hungry, but that's how you drop body fat. Well, you can feel full and drop body fat, but there's always this element of hunger that kind of have to put up with,
Katie Gilchrist (00:08:58):
And I trusted you worked out my calories and you knew how much I was training. So that really worked. I think if you're doing it by yourself and you've got no help, it must be really hard because you'll sit there till you plate a solid, eat it and really unsatisfied and then go and eat loads of cakes or something. I don't know.
Brock Ashby (00:09:21):
But I think that's why it's super important to track. And a lot of people will say it's obsessive or it's bad for your mindset or eating disorders. And I do think that there is a group of people that probably shouldn't track at certain times in their life, but I do think that it creates an awareness that you never really forget. You just really need to track. Even tracking for a month will help, but I'm a big believer and at least six months somewhere in your life, so you have this idea where you're like, okay, I know what a banana is. I know that the full fat milk latte in the mornings probably a 400 calorie bomb that I don't really need to have in the morning. And it just gives you this awareness. I will never forget, just because I was so OCD about it when I was younger, how many calories is in an almond? I used to count, I've shared this before, but I used to count my almonds and I was like, okay, there's seven. Yeah,
Katie Gilchrist (00:10:14):
I remember you saying that. I have no
Brock Ashby (00:10:16):
Clue. Yeah, seven calories per almond. And I used to have 20 because I knew there was 140 calories and I know that. So that probably is obsessive, I probably shouldn't have tracked at that time, but I have this awareness of at least I know when things are high in fat, high in protein, high in carb, do I have many calories left high in calories? And I think you are a very great example of how it benefited you. So you didn't have to eat salads or things that maybe didn't interest you. And you were still eating food that you liked as well.
Katie Gilchrist (00:10:47):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think the types of food I ate didn't really change. I just knew that if I ate a cake, I maybe wouldn't have as much dinner or something.
Brock Ashby (00:11:00):
So you're having cake, first cake before dinner.
Katie Gilchrist (00:11:02):
Yeah. Cake for breakfast. Yeah, I
Brock Ashby (00:11:05):
Like it. So you also managed to kick alcohol to the curb as well. And I have never really drunk. I tried it when I was younger, but didn't really catch onto it, didn't really get it. I think beer tastes gross. I think wine tastes gross. And if I ever did, I liked Bailey's, which I get a lot of crap for.
Katie Gilchrist (00:11:26):
Well, that's a bit weird that you don't like basic beer, but you didn't drink but you'd drink.
Brock Ashby (00:11:33):
Well, I used to sip it when my mom would have it. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then dad would have beer and it would just like if you would have the option of beer, and I don't know, I just got into Bailey's. But anyway, that's kind of irrelevant. You just kind of stopped it. You just went like, okay, I'm just not doing it anymore. What made you want to do that?
Katie Gilchrist (00:11:53):
Well, I've always been one to get really bad hangovers when I go social drinking. And I think, how old was I when I met you? Maybe 36, 37. 37 years old. And I think my body just started to get worse when I was drinking the older I got. And then it got to the point where I was getting really, really sick even after two or three bottles of beer. So I reduced down to low alcohol beers. And then I just thought, what's the point? There's no point. So I think I'd had a really bad time one night with some alcohol. I'd got a really bad hangover and I was just like, Nope. And that's it. I have not touched a drop of alcohol since that was three or four years ago.
Brock Ashby (00:12:49):
That was a long time ago.
Katie Gilchrist (00:12:51):
Yeah. And it's weird because, sorry, go on.
Brock Ashby (00:12:55):
No, no, you go, you go.
Katie Gilchrist (00:12:57):
It's weird because at first you feel really self-conscious about being out with drunk people, but then over time, that's your norm, that's your normal, so you don't think anything of it. And actually, it's the drunk people that find it. They're the ones that are uncomfortable with it because they're like, how can she be like this?
Brock Ashby (00:13:16):
Yeah, exactly. And I think some people feel insecure about their drinking that they do. So I've experienced that a lot because I haven't drunk for pretty much most of my life. People are like, oh, why don't you drink? Or you should have a drink just because they feel guilty for drinking. And we're not out there saying like, oh, why are you drinking? You're a bad person or drinking's bad for you. But just the decision of you not drinking. Some people, it kind of rubs them up the wrong way because they want to be doing that, but they're drinking. I don't know. Maybe they're giving it to peer pressure or maybe they just enjoy it, which is cool. But those usually aren't the people that kind of are a bit weird about it. They're like, oh, just have a drink, man. Come on. Just relax. Let your hair out. This type of thing.
Katie Gilchrist (00:14:05):
They don't get that. You already are relaxed. And I remember one of our friends, I think it was about one or two o'clock in the morning, and everybody was really, really drunk. We at a house party in Sydney, and I have a friend just said to me, he was like, how do you put up with us? We used to go most weeks. He's like, how do you put up with us when we're like this? And I said, you kidding? This is the best bit. It's hilarious. And I was like, none of you're going to remember this, but
Brock Ashby (00:14:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I actually like that part of almost kind of looking after people, making sure they're okay because you're able to drop them home or you're able to be like, look man, I think you should not make that decision that you are trying to make, and you have this clear perspective. And yeah, I think people think that you are not having a good time when you're not drinking, but, well, I'm the opposite. I think I'm having a great time when I'm out there. And I think if I was also drinking, I would be a bit crazy. I already get high energy. But what helped you stick to it? Because a lot of people would've tried that just going cold Turkey, I'm not drinking anymore. And then Friday comes along, Saturday comes along, Sunday comes along, and then they're hungover on the couch and they're like, okay, I'm going to do it again. Fresh out on Monday. But you've actually stuck to it for years. What has been the secret for you?
Katie Gilchrist (00:15:29):
Do you know what? I think part of it's personality. I'm stubborn, and when I put my mind to something, that's it. I'm doing it. And part of it was the fear of feeling that hangover again, and also thinking how disappointed I'd be with myself. I mean, there's been times on a sunny day when I've been like, oh, a nice fresh beard would be really nice. But then I'd think, well, no, I really regret that because just to have one beer after two years or whatever, and my husband often says, you'd regret it. So I think it's combination of stubbornness, personality, setting my mind on something, not wanting that hangover again, knowing how disappointed I'd be with myself. So I guess looking at what the consequences would be before I take the action.
Brock Ashby (00:16:24):
And I think you actually were feeling a lot better. I remember in the personal training sessions you were talking about how great you were feeling on the back of it when you were training and when you're waking up the next day, especially a Monday as well, coming into you have to go to work. You were training with me. I'm pretty sure we were training early on in the week, but you were feeling heaps better. So that's obviously going to help as well.
Katie Gilchrist (00:16:47):
And I just think you just feel better in general. It's one of those things that you kind of probably don't notice straight away, but over time you start to think, well, yeah, now I actually feel normal compared to always been hung over each week.
Brock Ashby (00:17:06):
But your training was going really well. And I remember we were getting, one of our things, and I'd love to talk about this just for a little bit, was hitting heavy PB deadlifts. That was our thing. We're like, alright, we're going for it. We're going for 80, we're going for this, we're going for that. And I think it's, yeah. Actually, before we go onto it, what was your heaviest pb? I can't remember it off the top of my head now. I could probably pull your programme up,
Katie Gilchrist (00:17:30):
But yeah, I think it was 97.25.
Brock Ashby (00:17:34):
97.25
Katie Gilchrist (00:17:36):
Is two five a weight.
Brock Ashby (00:17:38):
Maybe
Katie Gilchrist (00:17:39):
It wasn't quite 98. Oh, is it 98? It wasn't quite a hundred.
Brock Ashby (00:17:47):
Almost made it, but that's strong. Not many people, they can lift almost a hundred kg.
Katie Gilchrist (00:17:54):
No, and I was 50 kgs myself at the time.
Brock Ashby (00:17:57):
Yeah, double body weight. That's very impressive. That's very impressive.
Katie Gilchrist (00:18:03):
Yeah, I remember we were going for a hundred, but we didn't quite make it before my operation. But we did make the pull-ups though. And we did the Spartan.
Brock Ashby (00:18:12):
Yeah, that was massive. I remember that. Well, that's cardio. Here's us saying that we're team. And then we did the Spartan race.
Katie Gilchrist (00:18:21):
That's my hours at the back of the group. And you were stuck at the back with me.
Brock Ashby (00:18:25):
I was like, let's do this. That was such a good day though.
Katie Gilchrist (00:18:31):
Yeah, it was really good. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed all the rope climbs and everything and getting over that really big a-frame thing that I was terrified of height. I remember just really tentatively climbing over the top. I was absolutely terrified and knew at the bottom at one side, and my friends were at the bottom of the other, all kind of patiently cheering me on, let's go.
Brock Ashby (00:18:57):
But it's so good that we were focusing on, as you can tell by the Spartan, by hitting PBS and training regularly that we were focusing on getting stronger and we were focusing on performance-based goals, which I'm very big on as opposed to just aesthetic based goals. So focusing on what our body can do as opposed to just what our body looks like. And I think that's what led to your success. Yes, we were tracking calories and sure, we were aware of what your body was looking like, what your physique was like, what sort of progress we were making because we were taking photos, we were measuring your weight, we were taking your measurements. But I think if you just focus on aesthetics, the kind of performance based stuff doesn't really come because you're not worried about how strong you are or what sort of weight you're lifting, and then you just kind of focus on, and I think a lot of people get stuck in this kind of just what you look like.
(00:19:53):
And then if you look bad one day or you gain weight randomly, you kind of feel down and you feel like you're not making progress. And it's quite hard to measure sometimes by photos and weights and measurements. They can do funky things, especially if you are a female and you have your menstrual cycle, you can gain a couple kilos and then you're like, oh, well, I'm not making any progress. But if you are focusing on what your body can do, performance-based goals, you can accurately measure if you're getting stronger and if you are progressing for you, hitting chin ups, hitting PB deadlifts. I think that's just so important. And I think you can get the aesthetic or the look that you're going for if you focus predominantly on the performance as opposed to just focusing on what you look like in the mirror. That doesn't really translate to anything, but trying to help you get more confident, which is a great goal. But I think that confidence can also come if you are getting and focusing on your performance, which is what you were doing.
Katie Gilchrist (00:20:50):
Yeah, it's weird because I hadn't really reflected on that until you just said it, but yeah, everything we did was about the performance, wasn't it? I mean, obviously I liked how it was changing my body, but it wasn't really my primary focus.
Brock Ashby (00:21:10):
But I
Katie Gilchrist (00:21:10):
Don't think I ever came to you and said, oh, I've got a little bit of fat here. Can we get rid of it?
Brock Ashby (00:21:14):
Yeah. It just kind of happened, which is great. And I think a lot of people can benefit from that approach. Not saying that we don't want positive changes in our body. Yes, we do, but the fact of getting stronger over time is going to help us build muscle anyway. And then you're probably going to burn fat, obviously, depending on what you're doing with your diet. But it was so refreshing as I was saying, to see you just kind of come in and train hard and you were like, I want big traps. And I remember sending you photos. I took some photos while you were training.
Katie Gilchrist (00:21:50):
Can you see it up there on the kitchen cabinet?
Brock Ashby (00:21:53):
Is it there? Go. Can you bring
Katie Gilchrist (00:21:54):
It? Can you see it?
Brock Ashby (00:21:56):
No. Oh, yeah. I can see your frame, but I can't see the photo. That's
Katie Gilchrist (00:22:00):
That photo you took of me doing pull up chin
Brock Ashby (00:22:02):
Notes. Actually, yes, I can see it now. I can see your blonde hair and your arms out the side. And you got your, I think it was your Lululemon singlet that you had. Yeah,
Katie Gilchrist (00:22:11):
Lululemon. Yeah. I didn't do that photo. What happened was I put it on Instagram and secretly my mum printed it off and wrapped it up for present for me for Christmas a couple of years ago in a frame. And I was like, well, I can't really put it on my windowsill or something. That's a little bit, Hey, look at me. So it went up on the kitchen unit, and then we moved out a year later, and now it's on the top of the kitchen unit here. Because every time I look up there, I think, well, that's what I can do. Even though now I'm pregnant. And like I said earlier, I feel like a walrus. I can just look up there and be like, it's okay. I can do that. Do that again.
Brock Ashby (00:22:55):
That's awesome. Wow, that photo's really made it.
Katie Gilchrist (00:22:58):
It has. Yeah. And I didn't even know you'd taken it.
Brock Ashby (00:23:01):
Yeah. That's awesome. So how many chin-ups did we get to?
Katie Gilchrist (00:23:06):
Five. Nice. Which might sound really pathetic to some.
Brock Ashby (00:23:10):
No, no. There's a lot of people that can't even hit one. Not that that's a failure or anything, but five is a huge achievement. So we've got five. We got, it was trap bar deadlift, wasn't it?
Katie Gilchrist (00:23:24):
Yeah. That personal best. That PV was trap bar deadlift. But I did see MOS and regular deadlift as well in my programme. But the PVS were on the trap bar, which I know some people looked down on the trap bar, but I don't care.
Brock Ashby (00:23:41):
I'm a huge fan of the trap bar. I think it's so great. And you find often people don't get that lower back pain when they deadlift for the trap bar. I remember when we would do deadlifts, even though your form was great and it looked fine when you'd finish your back would be just feel a bit off sometimes. Like, oh, it's not really working. And as soon as you trap bar, it worked.
Katie Gilchrist (00:24:03):
Yeah. I've got a funny back because when I was born, I had a really curved arch and I had it kind of corrected as I was a child. And then I remember when I started deadlifting with Steve, I kind of got stuck maybe 50 kilos for weeks and weeks and weeks, and it took a long time. And I think my back, is it my back that's really dominant over my abs. So anything that's kind of horizontal, so planks, it really, really hurts. I did have issues with my back, so I had to work through that. And then once I'd got past that kind of 50, 60 kilos, it did start to get a bit better, and I started to learn when something was off, and then I would just stop. I wouldn't carry on and push. But the track ride, definitely, it did really help with that.
Brock Ashby (00:25:00):
And I think if you've got a problem with the trap bar that's just, well, I think it's stupid because it's about finding a solution that's right for you. It's like what if you're holding a trap bar or holding a bar, bar? What's the difference? A weight's the same and you're actually allowed to train. And the thing about the trap bar is the weight's all around you as opposed to in front of you, which yeah, so your erectus or your lower back, they just switch on for a lot of people. And then it's like, oh, how's that deadlift? Oh yeah, it was just all my back. It's like, well, it's actually a lower body exercise. Your back should, if you are doing it properly, yes, your lower back's engaged, but it shouldn't really be the main mover if you're lifting with these small little erectus in your back as opposed to using your entire legs. That's not an efficient way to train.
Katie Gilchrist (00:25:51):
And it's like with planks, I can't do planks very well because it's just so much strain on my back and I think I don't need to do a plank. There's plenty of other things I can do to get a strong call. Even the deadlifts give me a really strong call. You could punch me in the stomach and it'd be rock hard, but I couldn't plank for 15 seconds without being in pain.
Brock Ashby (00:26:16):
And I think that's the beauty of training. There's something for everyone. I remember we would do dead bugs because we tried planks, we really tried them. We gave them a good go, but they just never really worked. So there's no point doing it just to kind of force it if it doesn't work for you.
(00:26:33):
And so you touched on before, you said before your operation, and I would like to dive into it because that's why you said we didn't have time to reach the hundred kg trap by deadlift, but take us through what we worked through. I remember you telling me that we had to, well, before we started training, you prepped me, this is what I'm going through at the moment, and then you later on towards the journey, you told me that there was a timeframe where we had to wrap up training and for you to prepare for your operation. Yeah. Can you talk about that a bit? I'm not really sure how to dive into it.
Katie Gilchrist (00:27:15):
Yeah, I think I'd been diagnosed when I met you. I,
Brock Ashby (00:27:20):
Yeah, you I told you about it. Yeah. You had the Instagram going too.
Katie Gilchrist (00:27:24):
Yeah. So it was December, 2017 when I was diagnosed with a brain tumour, and it was non-malignant, so not cancerous, but they considered life-threatening because they grow towards your brainstem. But in reality, a surgeon's never going to let it grow that long once they know it's there. So I never actually feared for my life, but they're quite serious. They grow in your air canal on the balance nerve, and they affect your hearing, your balance. They can affect your facial muscles. The tumor's called acoustic neuroma. So I got that diagnosis in December, 2017, but actually I'd been investigating it for two or three years, I'd say. So I basically had a soapy taste in my mouth for a long time, and I had loads of investigations from the GP procedures, B12 shorts, endoscopy, colonoscopy, all these different things. And I eventually found a private ENT who said on his website that he looked into taste disorders. So I went to him and I'd created my own scale of how bad the taste was in Excel and tracked it and made it into a graph.
Brock Ashby (00:28:53):
Right?
Katie Gilchrist (00:28:56):
Super nerdy. That's
Brock Ashby (00:28:57):
Great. Anyway,
Katie Gilchrist (00:28:58):
I took this graph to him and I said, this is what my taste has been like for the last six months. And it was up and down, up and down, up and down, no pattern of anything he looked at. And he said, well, you've got sinus problem because it's all over the place on your graph. And as I was leaving, I said, oh, by the way, my husband said I'm going deaf. And he was like, okay. So he said, go here first off for a CT scan for sinus, and then go here and get a hearing test done. So after I went, I thought sinus problem, not a big deal. I didn't get round to having that CT scan, but I eventually went for the hearing test, and when the lady did, the results were that I'd lost hearing of certain pitches in my right ear, and she said, it can indicate a tumour.
(00:29:53):
So she said, you need an MRI. So I was like, okay. So a week later, she emailed me to check I'd booked it in and I hadn't. And I was like, oh, okay. Might be serious. So I booked in the MRI, and obviously in the meantime I'd gone to Dr. Google to find out, as you do tumours, tumours that affect the hearing. And I'd actually only come across one, which was the acoustic neuro. So I had the MRI and I went back for the results and he said he put the scan up on the screen. He said, okay, so tell me what do you see? And I said, well, one side of my sinus was all black, so that's completely blocked. So that is what was causing the taste. And then I saw this little white kidney be shape. I just pointed it and I said, A tumour? And he was like, yeah. He said, you've got an acoustic neuro.
(00:30:55):
So I was like, okay. And I already knew about it. I knew it wasn't cancerous. I was quite calm in the appointment. And he looked at me and was like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm okay. And then I went outside and I phoned my husband, and then that's when I cried and I was telling him I've got a tumour. His boss drove him over to where I was, and we kind of went home and digested it. And my manager from work called, we had a chat, and he said, you as calm as you sound you are is what you sound. And I said, well, yeah, I don't know. It just, I mean, I was upset and it was scary, but I think I just kind of processed it quite logically and quickly.
Brock Ashby (00:31:46):
Yeah. Well, you were tracking, and I didn't even know about this, but you were tracking your taste and you were kind of researching, so I guess you were prepared for it. If it blindsided you, maybe that would've been a bit more of a wake up call, but because you were so diligent, did your homework, maybe it didn't affect you as much.
Katie Gilchrist (00:32:04):
Yeah, maybe. And I took a couple of days off work. Me and George and I did join a couple of Facebook groups, and it was good to ask questions and find out technical stuff about it. But over time, I started to think how negative some of the groups were, and I really didn't find them helpful at all because I didn't have that outlook. And that's why I started my Instagram page. It was really hard. I wanted to see pictures of people. It sounds a bit weird, but I was like, well, what does somebody look like after this surgery? What does it do? What's the recovery look like in pictures? And you just couldn't really find it. So I started the Instagram page, which I've actually closed now just because
Brock Ashby (00:33:00):
I saw that.
Katie Gilchrist (00:33:01):
Yeah, I've got to stage where my recovery kind of plattered, and I didn't want it to be one of those accounts where it's like, here's what I lunch today, I was doing
Brock Ashby (00:33:16):
My master it. No one caress.
Katie Gilchrist (00:33:18):
Yeah, exactly that. And I thought, I did it for three years. It takes a lot out of you. You'll know this.
Brock Ashby (00:33:24):
Yeah. Yes, I do know this. Yeah. Yeah. But it was such a inspiring journey to follow, and especially knowing you and to, yeah, I don't want to jump too far forward. We can talk about that after. But so you've joined a couple of Facebook groups. You didn't really want to dwell on the negativity of it because a lot of people would fall into that mindset of being the victim, which is, I'm not trying to say that it's not a bad thing that's happening, and it's not something that you should worry about, but there's definitely that positive mindset that you carry that I think is super beneficial to do, to focus on in hardship. I was not to kind of put the story on me, but when I was dealing with my mom's loss, I read a book called The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peel.
(00:34:21):
And that saved me, sometimes I'll say that that book saved my life because it was like the power of positive thinking. It sounds so cheesy, and sometimes you read the book and you're like, oh, man, yeah, whatever. Just be positive when you're going through all this stuff, but it makes such a change. It makes such a big difference in your life when you're actually staying positive in this time. So you started the Instagram account, you started posting stuff that wasn't negative, that was positive, but you were also being honest as well. You were being real. It wasn't like, oh, I'm feeling amazing, and this is going to be such a fun journey. You were very honest as well. So where did that take you from there, once you started doing some research into it and started focusing on being positive?
Katie Gilchrist (00:35:10):
Well, it wasn't really a conscious decision to be positive. That's just the way I was, I think. And I think
Brock Ashby (00:35:21):
It's who you are.
Katie Gilchrist (00:35:22):
And just to touch on what you said about being honest, it's not about ignoring how horrible it is. It is just kind of about, for me, it was about being practical and thinking, can I do best for me? And it's also about framing how you frame your words. So people might go on the Facebook groups and say, I've got this life-threatening condition. Well, yes, in theory, or it is life-threatening, or before MRIs, it was life-threatening before the medical advances we have now. But in actual real life, if your tumour is found and it's small to medium, they're never going to let you die from that. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:36:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Katie Gilchrist (00:36:15):
So it's kind of thinking about how you frame and what words you use to yourself.
Brock Ashby (00:36:21):
Yeah, language is huge. Yeah.
Katie Gilchrist (00:36:23):
Yeah. So I think I just wanted to be with my Instagram. I wanted just to post practical things that might help without the doom and gloom, I guess.
Brock Ashby (00:36:35):
Yeah. So you went through with the operation. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, or not really?
Katie Gilchrist (00:36:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's fine. So they monitored it for a year, and it started to grow,
Brock Ashby (00:36:49):
And we were training through this time,
Katie Gilchrist (00:36:53):
So that year that I was training with you, they were monitoring it. But I always had in the back of my head that at some point I might need this operation, and I just wanted to get really as strong as I could and fit and healthy as I could. So I guess that was a big motivator.
Brock Ashby (00:37:08):
But I think that's an awesome testament to your character as well, about that positive mindset and about being honest and all of that. While we're talking about it, you were still training. You weren't going, oh, I have a brain tumour. I can't train. My life is over or not, my life is over, but my life is limited, so I can't do this and that. You were still pushing it, and I would push you hard, and I knew what you were dealing with, but you were really courageous and still training hard and still dieting and still checking in with me every week. It was awesome to see not many people can do that, just being a hundred percent healthy without a brain
Katie Gilchrist (00:37:49):
Tumour. Well, the thing is, it's funny because some people, when they get diagnosed, you see in groups that they're saying, well, can I do this now? And I'm like, well, could you do that the day before you knew the tumour was there?
Brock Ashby (00:38:03):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Katie Gilchrist (00:38:05):
The only thing that's changed is now it's there.
Brock Ashby (00:38:08):
Yeah, exactly.
Katie Gilchrist (00:38:11):
So yeah, I guess, yeah. So it was being monitored and it started to grow, and it was 13 mil when I first had the tumours. That's just over a centimetre. And there's different approaches to the surgery that they can do. One of the approaches could potentially preserve the hearing that I had. So I had lost 30% hearing already, and they might've been able to save the other 70% with this specific type of surgery, but if the tumour got bigger than 15 mil, they could no longer do that approach just because of the angle they're going.
(00:38:57):
The downside of that approach was that there was more risk to the facial nerve because of the angle they go in. They kind of went in the top of the skull rather than through the back of the ear. So I had to make a decision. Did I want to risk my facial nerve and try and save the hearing? And if so, I had to do it quickly because it was fast approaching the cut up point, or I could have left it, let it continue to grow at whatever pace. They're usually slow growing, and they kind of spurt. Mine grew quite a bit in six months, and then maybe in five or 10 years, I could have had the operation and that would've gone through the ear, back of the ear, and that would've a hundred percent destroyed all the hearing in that ear. So those are my two options. Risk the facial nerve, maybe save the hearing, but have it done now, or wait five, 10 years, definitely lose the hearing, but probably not lose the facial nerve. So we decided to go with the, it's called middle fossa approach when going through the top of your skull. Unfortunately, I lost all the hearing. It just switched off, and I got grade six facial paralysis, which is the most severe facial paralysis that you can get. So all the rad things that I was told may happen, all happened.
(00:40:37):
I think the thing I was most scared about, which is what most people with this tumour are scared about is the facial paralysis. Aesthetically. It's really hard to adapt to, but also mechanically, it's really hard. So I had the surgery, I wake up, he said, you've got facial paralysis. I don't really remember this. I was in intensive care for two days. I was completely out of it. I didn't really care.
Brock Ashby (00:41:04):
Fair enough,
Katie Gilchrist (00:41:05):
Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, I don't care. But the other thing is they have to cut your balance nerve when they do the operation, so you also have to learn to walk again.
Brock Ashby (00:41:17):
Yeah, yeah, I
Katie Gilchrist (00:41:18):
Remember. So you go through that rehab.
Brock Ashby (00:41:20):
Yeah, yeah. I remember you sending videos to me walking around and relearning how to walk, and even just kind of, well, you also had scars as well, so you had to kind of, well not deal with them, but you had that, and then you had to kind of reteach your face. You had to reteach how to walk as well. You went through a lot.
Katie Gilchrist (00:41:44):
Well, yeah. I remember when I was discharged, I was in a wheelchair being pushed down to the car. Our friend came and picked me up, and I got in the elevator. There's this little girl stood in the elevator opposite me. She must've been about seven or eight. And I looked like I'd just come out of a car crash. I had half a shaved head. I had a massive scar that went right from the top of my skull all the way down to my ear, a swollen, paralysed face. One half of my face was just frozen and not moving and droopy, and my eyes were all puffy. And I just get this little girl, this little cheeky half smile,
(00:42:32):
And she just smiled back at me and I was just like, oh God. I dunno. Do you know what it was? I really love coffee. Me too. Coffee in England's awful. But anyway, there was this coffee shop that I used to go to every morning. It was one block away from a flat. And I said to myself, I'm going tomorrow morning, because part of your recovery is you have to go out for a walk every day, even though you sleep probably 23 hours a day, you have to try and go out. Yeah, I was sleeping all the time because it's the same impact on your brain as a brain injury. So you have a lot of fatigue, which I still have now, hence why 8:30 PM is late for me. But anyway, yeah, sorry. So I decided I'm just going to go. I'm going to get my coffee. So George obviously walked up with me, got my coffee, said hello to all the coffee guys, and they asked how I was, because they all knew I was going in for the operation because I went there every day. So that was my motivator. And it is a bit like pulling the bandaid off. Just go out, don't hide in your house. If you've got facial paralysis after this operation, don't hide in your house because it'll get worse and you'll build it up in your head.
Brock Ashby (00:43:52):
Yeah. Well, you got a lot of time to just lay there and think, so you can create all these scenarios in your head.
Katie Gilchrist (00:43:58):
Yeah. Yes. I just went out and got my coffee and did that every day. And then one of my goals I remember was to walk to fitness first to see you.
Brock Ashby (00:44:07):
Yeah, I remember it.
Katie Gilchrist (00:44:09):
And a walk that normally would take me 20 minutes, took me about 45 minutes, and I got there and I rang you and you weren't even there.
Brock Ashby (00:44:18):
I'm so sorry,
Katie Gilchrist (00:44:22):
But it doesn't matter because the goal was to get there, and I did that. So I just kind of set myself little walking goals. After a while, it became building back up the stamina, and I was a bit disorientated. It's not like I would just walk down the street and fall over, but if I turned my head too quickly, I'd get disorientated or it's dark, I'd get disorient. And that still happens now if it's dark outside or if I turn too quickly, I can easily walk into the wall or something.
Brock Ashby (00:44:58):
Yeah, I remember you sending videos when you were walking, and I remember you sent me a photo when I missed it at the front of the fitness first steps. I still remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember you sending me videos of you walking and yeah, it wasn't like you were falling over, but you weren't in a solid straight line and you still had to reteach your, well, not that your legs forgot how to walk, but you still had to reteach, I guess, your balance in
Katie Gilchrist (00:45:25):
Terms of the balance. Yeah, that's it. So I feel a bit like a fraud when I say I had to learn to walk again, because people usually think of people who've been paralysed or had a back injury, but what it was, they destroyed one balance nerve. You have to let the other balance nerve compensate to keep you straight. So that was the aspect of retraining. Actually, I got told off in the hospital, so I had a stroller for a few days, had to use the stroller, and then one day I decided not to, and I was using the handrail, and George was next to me, and I took my hand off the handrail, and this nurse has yelled at me down the com door. I try, I dunno, do I? Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:46:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe there's a safer way to try or maybe at a later date. But I guess that goes back to your attitude of always trying to improve, trying to make progress somehow and push yourself.
Katie Gilchrist (00:46:26):
And when I was in intensive care, the physios came in, I think it was the first or second day. They get you up really quickly because the quicker you're up, the quicker you start to, the balance comes back and it feels awful. You've got vertigo and you feel like you on a ship with sickness and it's awful. But all I knew in my head was I knew my legs were strong, and I knew my core was strong, so I knew they would keep me up straight. All I had to do was balance. And so I stood up and then they said, oh, you're quite strong. Do you want to go for a walk? So I said, all right. So I'm walking down intensive care with three physios. And then I walked back and they said, people don't usually do that on the first day.
Brock Ashby (00:47:14):
Yeah, wow. And then you're like, have you got a trap bar around couple 10 kilo planes? Yeah. That's awesome.
Katie Gilchrist (00:47:27):
And another little thing, it's a really small thing, but the hospital beds, they're really big and clunky and hard to move around in, but I could easily just pull myself up and move about with my arms. They were strong. So all these really little things that I tried to say on my Instagram as well, if you're going in for your operation, all these little things are going to help you. It doesn't matter if your fitness levels are less than mine. There's always something you can do to improve, to make it better for you when you do go in for your operation.
Brock Ashby (00:48:01):
And that's the benefit that you had from training with me or just training in general. I'm not trying to claim anything here, but you getting strong, eating healthy, trying to live your best life before you go in, that was inspiring in itself because you, at one point you knew that there was a time that you had had to get the operation, but you weren't like, oh, I am going to stop now. Six months out. We literally trained till the last day possible. And then you were like, I need to start preparing, or I can't remember the reason or the actual timeline that you left, but it was relatively close to when you were having the operation.
Katie Gilchrist (00:48:40):
It was few days.
Brock Ashby (00:48:41):
Yeah, it was
Katie Gilchrist (00:48:42):
A few days before. Yeah, days before the operation.
Brock Ashby (00:48:46):
Yeah. That's awesome.
Katie Gilchrist (00:48:48):
Yeah. And do you know what? I went through a grieving process when I left the gym because that was one of the most upsetting things about knowing I was going to have that operation. What would my fitness be like afterwards?
Brock Ashby (00:49:10):
So what has that been like? Sorry to cut you off after the surgery. We've been staying in touch. You've sent me videos of you deadlifting again, and even things that you were doing early on because you went and saw a physio, or sorry, not a physio, or maybe a personal trainer that focused on balance and on that area of training, which I'm like, that's not me. I'm not the person to see after that if you want to.
Katie Gilchrist (00:49:39):
That's I never asked you. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:49:42):
If you want to get some pbs, I'm glad to see, but not after my
Katie Gilchrist (00:49:46):
Surgery. But the other thing as well was the gym that I moved to was right next to my workplace. It was in the same building. And because I was having the fatigue, the tiredness, I just had to cut out anything that was using up energy without a purpose, I guess. But yeah, the new pt, we did a lot of coordination and balance work and probably a little bit too much cardio for my liking. I think I swore it in quite a lot and scald, and
Brock Ashby (00:50:19):
He deserves it.
Katie Gilchrist (00:50:22):
But we did things like, I actually did my first single legged box jump after my surgery.
Brock Ashby (00:50:31):
That's crazy. The amount of balance that takes and coordination is crazy.
Katie Gilchrist (00:50:37):
And it was terrifying. And I remember putting these videos on my Instagram of my failures beforehand. I didn't want to just put the one up of where I did it. So there was a bunch where I just, I don't even know what I did. I just kind of ran into the box and f flopped on it. I dunno. It was just scary. But eventually I made it. So things like that. And I did start lifting again. I think I got to maybe 50 kilos. You have to be careful because if you do too much lifting too soon, you can cause a CCF S leak, which is brain fluid leak. So after the operation, you're not allowed to lift anything more than a bag of sugar for a month
Brock Ashby (00:51:26):
Bag of sugar.
Katie Gilchrist (00:51:27):
That's
Brock Ashby (00:51:27):
Why that's very specific.
Katie Gilchrist (00:51:29):
Well, that was the surgeon's example. No doing laundry, no doing the dishwasher, nothing. So George had a month off work to care for me 24 hours, basically make sure I didn't do anything and get everything that I needed. But yeah, so we worked a lot on balance and things like that and started to get back into deadlifts, and I just did it really carefully. I didn't want to cause any more damage. So yeah, that's actually nine weeks. Nine weeks I did a handstand.
Brock Ashby (00:52:10):
Wow. Really?
Katie Gilchrist (00:52:13):
Yeah.
Brock Ashby (00:52:14):
Did you send that one to me? Maybe.
Katie Gilchrist (00:52:19):
I dunno. I put it on Instagram, but anyway, yeah, nine weeks did. I did a handstand. I could do them beforehand though.
Brock Ashby (00:52:27):
Yeah. Once again, that helped.
Katie Gilchrist (00:52:30):
Yeah, because done a lot together, haven't we? Of handstands?
Brock Ashby (00:52:33):
Yeah. Yeah, we did a bit.
Katie Gilchrist (00:52:35):
Yeah. So that was really a good achievement actually. I wasn't really sure. Again, I just had to put my trust in my strength and just hope that I stayed up. Right?
Brock Ashby (00:52:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Katie Gilchrist (00:52:51):
Yeah. And then, well, seven months after the T, we moved back to the uk and then I was doing my master's in London, but I was commuting from North Yorkshire, so it was really taking a lot out of me. But I did join a gym again, and I was going maybe once a week and then lockdown happened.
Brock Ashby (00:53:14):
Yeah. So how was that? Did you train at home or Not really?
Katie Gilchrist (00:53:20):
It was really hard. We were in a really small flat and yeah, so no, not really. Was just my fitness levels just went downhill. They opened up again, so I started going back again. Then we moved house to another, another county, and I joined a gym here where I live now, and it's a woman's only gym, and it's like circuits. So you go around using the same machines and I'm sure knowing me this wouldn't surprise you that after six rounds of that I was bored. So I said, can I go in the studio instead and use your equipment? And I got a bit of a lecture on how lifting weights won't get me the results that I want.
Brock Ashby (00:54:07):
Really? What were they saying? You're like, mate, you're talking to the wrong person.
Katie Gilchrist (00:54:12):
I know. I was just like, don't even bother.
Brock Ashby (00:54:16):
But what sort of advice is that in the first place?
Katie Gilchrist (00:54:20):
I think it was more that they just preferred these hydraulic machines because they said, you get the most out of your muscles in both directions. And I thought, well, you can do that with free weights if you're doing it properly.
Brock Ashby (00:54:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Katie Gilchrist (00:54:35):
But because it was not set up to be that kind of gym, it only had lightweights and only a few dumbbells and a barbells. So I've been doing that. I was doing that for a few weeks, a few months, and then I was pregnant. I got pregnant, so I carried on into my second trimester, but then I started to get really, really tired and just not right. I wasn't right at all. My mental health wasn't right. Pregnancy absolutely knocked my mental health and my physical health. And so I stopped going to the gym and I found out afterwards, actually, my iron levels were so low.
Brock Ashby (00:55:11):
Okay.
Katie Gilchrist (00:55:13):
My midwife checked them. And so I was put on iron tablets, and so now my energy is a lot better, but I'm now in my third trimester and the size of Wal, so I switched to going out for a walk every day instead. So that's where I'm at at the moment. And actually, I bought a bar barbell yesterday for home after when the baby's born.
Brock Ashby (00:55:38):
Yeah. Nice. Wow. So well, I guess you'll see how you feel afterwards, but in terms of a timeline after training, you're going to get back into the barbell
Katie Gilchrist (00:55:50):
And I'm going to get some dumbbells and stuff that I can do at home.
Brock Ashby (00:55:53):
Yeah. Wow, that's awesome. That's why I wanted to have you on. It's such an awesome story to hear, and I guess it's so consistent to hear your mindset and your attitude throughout even training with me, how you were so driven and so sorry, my voice sound like I've been smoking your drive just through us training has just continued through going through your surgery, recovering and dealing with, and you were studying, now you're pregnant, you're still doing things, which is so awesome. You're still progressing, you're still pushing your body to the limit, even though there's been limits that you've already really pushed that other people can't really push being 100% healthy or without having a brain tumour. It's so awesome. It's just been so consistent, your attitude. It's such a great attitude to have instead of taking the old, oh, this is hard, or woe is me type of attitude, which it definitely has been. I'm sure you are touching on times where you're feeling great and being consistent. I'm sure there were tough times as well where you were upset. And you said you've gone through times where you were grieving, which is totally understandable. It's just so awesome to see that you've remained strong.
Katie Gilchrist (00:57:18):
Yeah, I did. I definitely grieved my fitness. It was probably when I got pregnant and I was in the first trimester, had a lot of nausea and sickness and then the iron problems. And then on top of that I had the fatigue still from brain tumour. And when you've got a health condition or multiple health conditions, you get a lot of appointments that come with that. And a lot of daily routines. I still have to do the facial exercises. I'm still having facial physio now for my face. It's now about a grade three, but I've only just recently retrained my mouth how to eat with the mouth closed. Like I said to you earlier, last week, I had surgery on my inside of my mouth to have a growth removed where I'd bitten my lip when I had the facial paralysis in the early days. And it just turned into this big kind of growth. And whenever I'd eat something that was a bit more complicated to eat, I would bite it and it was really painful. And then I'd avoid eating on that side. So then I wasn't retraining those muscles. And this is nearly three years, and I'm still going through all of that stuff, and it's just really draining and tiring.
Brock Ashby (00:58:42):
So how do you stay positive? Or how do you keep showing up every day?
Katie Gilchrist (00:58:49):
The alternative, the alternative is a spiral into no way good. Do you know what I mean?
Brock Ashby (00:59:00):
Yeah, yeah. I've often been asked that question on my stories. How do you stay positive? Not that I'm not saying I've been dealing with stuff difficult as you have been, but once again, coming back to that book that I read, but I've said that before too. What's the alternative? If you wake up and you're not positive, the alternative is being negative. And then as soon as you have that negative thought or that negative approach to the day, like you said, it's a downward spiral. I like the saying, I don't really know, I guess it word for word, the actual quote, but you get what you see. So if you wake up and you kind of put on these negative glasses, that's all you're going to see. As opposed to waking up with these positive glasses. You can see, let's say you can see opportunity, you can see love, you can see happiness in certain things. Oh, it's raining. If you had the negative glasses on, oh, it's such a shit day. I can't believe this. It's meant to be summer, as opposed to like, okay, it's raining. I'm not going to go outside, but I can do things inside. That's a small example where that negative or positive thought or decision can impact the rest of your day.
Katie Gilchrist (01:00:19):
And don't get me wrong, I have tantrums and I get frustrated and annoyed about things and with the tiredness and stuff like that. And even more so in the pregnancy, it just made it a hundred times worse. So everything that I had going on already is just even worse. Being pregnant because your balance is compromised the bigger you get. Just little things like putting my socks on is really hard because I've got a big bump and then I'm tired anyway because the pregnancy, and I'm tired anyway because the fatigue. And then I might have a tantrum and get a stop and cry,
(01:01:09):
But then I'll just be like, right, okay, come on. Let's do something a bit more productive. But I think the other thing as well that helped me was, well, doing my Instagram really helped because I felt like I was being useful to other people and also useful to myself. And then when we moved back here, I wanted to do a master's in psychology, and I came across a master's called health Psychology. So it's everything to do with behaviour and health, such as stopping smoking, reducing alcohol, eating habits, all these different things. And I did my dissertation on carer's experiences of looking after acoustic neuroma patients. So I interviewed over the year. I interviewed moms, dads, daughters, husbands, wives, partners, all these people that had looked after people like me. And I finished the master's. And then in spring last year, I submitted it to a journal for publication. That takes a long time, a lot longer than I thought. So I'm now going through the second round of revisions for it, but I'm hoping that it's going to be published early next year.
Brock Ashby (01:02:34):
Awesome. So can you talk about it or no? Yeah,
Katie Gilchrist (01:02:41):
You have to wait. No, no. I can talk about it. It's my dissertation. I just decided that I wanted it published because when I chose my supervisor, when we had our first meeting, I said to her, I want to get this published and I want to share the findings with brain tumour charities because otherwise, what's the point in doing all this work for it to just sit on my Google Drive and never be seen? And she loved that. And now I work for her as a researcher.
(01:03:16):
All these good things have come out of it, and we're trying to get it published. I've presented the findings to the British Acoustic Neuroma Association already. I worked with them to recruit people. And this week I've had talks with Brains Trust, another charity in the uk. They kind of support people with all kinds of brain tumours. And the good thing about getting it published is that it can help charities when they're making funding applications. So they can say, look, here's a valid study that says carers need more support in these areas. And it just kind of gives them a bit more backing.
Brock Ashby (01:03:59):
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that comes back down to having that positive mindset as well, that positive decision that you're like, okay, I want to do something that's going to help impact other people that have been in my situation. Or people just around someone with, is it acoustic neuroma? I want to get it.
Katie Gilchrist (01:04:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:04:20):
People being around it, you can help them once again, but it's that decision that you've made. I want to help other people instead of, oh, this is so hard, I'm just going to curl up into a ball and complain. That's so great. What were the major findings that you found, the common threads that will really help people in the future?
Katie Gilchrist (01:04:41):
Yeah, I think the most common things are lack of information at diagnosis stage and lack of, so people kind of left the appointments not really knowing where they can go and get support and help from, and also, and also lack of information on the recovery of the patient. So quite a lot of the participants didn't realise just how impaired the patient would be afterwards, and it was quite scary for them. So that was another area. It's difficult, particularly the NHS is very overstretched, but for example, one person didn't realise that the partner might feel sick and he saw them being really violently sick, and that was obviously really distressing for him. So just things like that, really
Brock Ashby (01:05:46):
Just kind of getting an accurate picture of what can happen because yeah, you're saying, yeah, it can stop you from being blindsided and being surprised or getting upset or demotivated that you're not recovering at the right rate.
Katie Gilchrist (01:06:01):
And that's another thing people weren't sure, should my daughter be more progressed than this by now, they didn't really know. They didn't really have many touch points afterwards. It was kind of go home and recover, we'll see you in six months or whatever.
Brock Ashby (01:06:19):
But you were out there trying to pt, get some PT in, get some handstands in.
Katie Gilchrist (01:06:26):
Yeah, I think I sat at the gym after five weeks actually. So I said to my surgeon, I was like, is it alright right now if I go upside down and do handstands? And he looked at me and he was like, well, yeah, but why would you want to,
Brock Ashby (01:06:41):
You're like, why not?
Katie Gilchrist (01:06:43):
I was like, for fun.
Brock Ashby (01:06:45):
So obviously everyone's recovery is going to be different. So some people might not be able to do a handstand after nine weeks. Some people might still be grasping how to walk in nine weeks or 10 weeks.
Katie Gilchrist (01:06:57):
And I did put this on my posts. It doesn't matter if you can't do a handstand, but can you walk around the block? Can you just go out for a stroll? And the other thing to know is people are often older when they're diagnosed with this, so they have a lot more complications. So recovery is a lot harder. It's genuinely harder for those people.
Brock Ashby (01:07:21):
And I think that comes down to all goals as well, or recovery or trying to progress in some ways, having smaller goals to take this into the gym setting. So many people want to lose 10 kg straight away or squat a hundred kg deadlift whatever amount, but then they try it straight away and then they fail or then they give up. But if they did, what you're saying is like, okay, instead of going for a handstand, can you walk around the block?
(01:07:51):
You kind of get these confidence milestones. And I've actually been thinking about the last couple of days, the snowball effect of setting smaller goals, how it just gives you that confidence. You were learning how to walk and you were also learning how to or strengthen your facial muscles, and then you were trying to figure out how to do a single leg box jump, and then you were deadlifting 50 kgs and stuff. You kind of had this, I guess, not blueprint, but you had these little goals that you were setting, whether you were aware of them or not, and making progress on those. And I think that's such a powerful way to do it. And I think especially on days where you are demotivated or don't feel like doing anything, which we have a lot, which obviously you'll have a lot as well, it's about having small goals. Maybe you just want to put your socks on
(01:08:47):
Or just start your day with a glass of water and then have a healthy breakfast and then just see where that takes you for the rest of the day. But having these goals, I think that's definitely a way to continue making progress and not getting demotivated, because I think that's the worst thing. That's the worst thing. When you try something, you fail and then you give up, which is what a lot of people do. They have these huge ambitious goals like, oh, I'm going to start a diet, so I'm going to go a hundred percent keto. And then you stick to it for one or two days and then you just can't stick to 'em. But instead you can just say, okay, instead of having three meals and three snacks, I'm going to have three meals and two snacks. Maybe that's going to be a better approach for you. Just sit in the small goals and kind of gaining that momentum.
Katie Gilchrist (01:09:32):
And another thing that people after this surgery with the fatigue, another good thing to do is pacing. So spreading out your activities. It's a bit like don't go for massive goals, go for little ones, but also don't book all your social activities in one week because you'll probably be exhausted the week after. Spread them out, do smaller things. Kind of smaller doses is a really effective way of managing fatigue.
Brock Ashby (01:10:03):
A hundred percent. So obviously I don't want to keep you too long. I guess just to kind of close up this conversation, what is life like now for you? Obviously we've kind of touched on it, you are pregnant, you are I guess struggling a little bit just in terms of energy, but you are, what's life now? You are working, you're pregnant, you're with your husband.
Katie Gilchrist (01:10:32):
Yeah, so I've got a few research projects that I'm trying to wrap up before for January. Then I'll go on mat leave Baby's June, February. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. We dunno if we're having a boy or girls. That's really exciting. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:10:54):
We were chatting about that before jumping online. I like that idea.
Katie Gilchrist (01:10:59):
And yeah, it's just exciting now that it's going to get hit. And then what I really want to do is once I've adapted to having a baby, I do want to start training again potentially with your Is it With Better with Brock programme?
Brock Ashby (01:11:18):
That's the podcast built by Brock,
Katie Gilchrist (01:11:20):
Built by Brock. That's it. Sorry.
Brock Ashby (01:11:23):
It's still with Brock though.
Katie Gilchrist (01:11:25):
Yeah, training with Brock. I've found it hard to find anyone else, to be honest, that I trust to help me get where I want. And because we worked together for so long in person, it'd be easy for me to follow your online programme. And I really, I want to be a health inspiration to my child as well, whether they're male or female, I want them to know about lifting.
Brock Ashby (01:11:54):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's so important, and I think it's definitely helped you to be the strong person you are physically and mentally where you are today, but I think that's awesome to have that kind of role model figure for your child. I've got actually quite a few friends that have children at the moment, and I actually went to her first birthday last weekend and oh, Dave Conia, if you remember him from Marco Street. Oh, he was another personal trainer there. He was my best friend at the gym, but he
Katie Gilchrist (01:12:28):
Just Oh, the one that used to hover around sometimes. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:12:31):
Yeah, yeah. He just had his first birthday, well, his child, and he was like, because there's the whole, you have a kid, you get a dad bod or you let yourself go. He's like there shredded. He's got a six pack apac. Not that that's the goal, but he's had the same mentality of he wants his kid obviously being a personal trainer, he's super into his health and fitness and so is his wife, who's also a personal trainer, but he's very, I want my kid to, not necessarily, his kid doesn't have to be shredded or know that you have to be super muscly when you're older, but he just wants them to be healthy and know that it's important because it's not just about, like I'm saying, getting shredded or being buff or impressing other people. It's about what you can do with your body and how that also impacts other aspects of your life as well.
Katie Gilchrist (01:13:30):
Yeah, and like I said to George, when we've talked about goals for our kid, I only have one goal. I really want my kid to themselves because I think if you like yourself, it sets you up for everything. And I think health and fitness is really helpful for that. Just respecting yourself and liking yourself
Brock Ashby (01:13:55):
A hundred percent. And I think that's developed us into who we are. It is definitely helped me be more disciplined, more committed, more hardworking, because you do that stuff in the gym and then you're like, well, I may as well do it in the rest of my life as well. It doesn't really make sense. If you go to the gym, work really hard, be really disciplined, committed, and then you get out and you're just this non disciplined, non-motivated person, it's just sick in nature that it's going to happen in other areas of your life.
(01:14:25):
So to wrap this up, I just want to say massive thanks. It's been awesome. I've wanted to have this conversation for a long time. I have notes on my laptop, and as soon as I was like podcast, I was like, Katie, have this conversation. I didn't tell you that. I didn't tell you that, but as soon as I made it, I put all these kind of people that I want to have on and conversations I want to have. But yeah, I think it's super inspiring. As I said at the start, it's awesome. I think a lot of people will find this interesting and inspiring as well. Sometimes we think our problems are very big. We think that what we're dealing is very hard, and to hear your story kind of gives us a bit of perspective. Like, okay, someone's struggling to put their socks on, or someone's trying to walk or learn how to reuse their face. Maybe my problem's not as big as I thought it was. So I think that's something that I definitely take away, but I just love your approach. I think it's awesome. Obviously, since we work together, I thought you're an amazing person, but I think your story needs to be heard and yeah, I wish you nothing but the best with your recovery as well. That's continuing. And your pregnancy with Bub, whether male or female, may they be strong and themselves.
Katie Gilchrist (01:15:41):
Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:15:44):
Yeah, no, thanks so much for coming on and yeah, I guess we'll chat soon. You keep me in the loop when Bubba comes out. I'd really appreciate that.
Katie Gilchrist (01:15:52):
I will. I'll send you a picture.
Brock Ashby (01:15:54):
Awesome. Okay. Thanks for coming on.
Katie Gilchrist (01:15:57):
Thank you.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to the fifth episode of the Better with Brock podcast. I have my, well, actually old client, but physiotherapist, Butch Red Blato in the building. How are you doing this morning, man?
Butch Redoblato (00:15):
Yeah, not too bad. Thanks Brock. First ever podcast recording. So a little bit sort of, I guess nervous, but no, quite keen, more than anything then to get into it. So thanks for the invite, bro. Looking forward to it.
Brock Ashby (00:28):
Mate. What an honour to have you on my podcast for the first podcast. Hopefully this is one of many to come. So we were just talking off air just before this. Butch actually spent a bit of time in Christchurch. I actually played touch with his brother verse and rugby, so we might have a little bit in common that way, hooked into Christchurch. But what did you go into Christchurch for? Because I've, well, sorry, to give you guys a bit of background. Butch is now in Brisbane, and I've done the same thing too. Jumped over the Tasman to Sydney originally. First went to Gold Coast, but what made you make the jump? Because so many people from New Zealand end up coming to Australia.
Butch Redoblato (01:14):
Yeah, well, it was actually my mum first suppose so after the 2011 earthquakes, which we were there still during, yep.
Brock Ashby (01:23):
Yeah, I was at high school.
Butch Redoblato (01:25):
Yeah. Yeah. So the 2011 earthquakes sort of started that cascade of moving over to Aussie. So mom didn't quite like the feeling of an aftershock, so she thought, I'm just going to go and find another area to reside. And yeah, she got a job offer in Brizi. Just a bit of background. Mom and dad are both gp, so mom was able to get a job there and then yeah, just slowly one of us, one by one we all moved over and culminating in myself. Actually, I was the last one to jump the ship and go over to Aussie, and that was in 2016. Yeah, but I do miss Christchurch as I'm sure part of it does in a way. But yeah, good to be here.
Brock Ashby (02:13):
Yeah, I think Christchurch is an amazing place to grow up. I think after the earthquakes it was definitely different. It was such a different vibe. It was like a ghost town. And even
Butch Redoblato (02:24):
Definitely,
Brock Ashby (02:25):
I took my fiance back this year. We found a couple of weeks in Lockdowns where there was no quarantine or anything, and we went over for my brother's birthday and it was still very similar years later, I left probably maybe a bit later after you after 2016, but there's still the CBDs very empty. It's very low to the ground because a lot of buildings fell over and they're doing construction, but it's still taking quite a while. So I'm actually quite glad that I made the jump. Obviously, I miss the people and that's the biggest thing that I miss about Crush Itch is the people. I definitely don't miss the weather for sure.
Butch Redoblato (03:04):
Yeah. Yeah. No, look. Yeah, look, I think opportunity wise, it's obviously done. You good. And same with myself, man, I do wish I moved sooner, but yeah, I went back in June as well for a break. I don't know, just got that awesome vibe of being I guess, home again. But yeah, no good memories anyway.
Brock Ashby (03:28):
Yeah. So do you think having your parents as a gp, as gps influenced your decision to get into physiotherapy and kind of helping people in some way?
Butch Redoblato (03:40):
Absolutely, man, and they weren't, I guess aggressively like, oh no, I want you to be a doctor. But growing up I was inspired by mom and dad, and I remember I've got vivid memories of dad coming home from work and he's got his stethoscope around his neck and he just knew that here's a man that went in there and just helped people. So yeah, I thought I want to do something like that, but they were never like, oh, I want you to be a doctor. But yes, I did draw inspiration from them a hundred percent.
Brock Ashby (04:17):
And I think that type of parenting style, if it is a style, doesn't really work if you kind of push things on. One thing I'm super grateful for is my dad supporting all my decisions. First of all, I wanted to do music because my dad ended up teaching me guitar, so I was like, yeah, I want to do music. And then I was playing, and then I was told dad I wanted to study at jazz school. I studied at CPIT Jazz school. Nice. And he was my biggest fan helping me out as a kid, learning how to play together, sing together. And then when I was like, yeah, I don't really want to do music, I think I want to do personal training, my dad was like, that's awesome. He wasn't like, oh no, you should do music. That's where you should go. Just he wanted to do it. And I think that support really actually helps you kind of believe in yourself
Butch Redoblato (05:07):
Or absolutely
Brock Ashby (05:08):
You guide yourself to your own decision. So what does your day look like as a physiotherapist? What are you dealing with day to day? We kind of touched on off air. You are kind of at the practise, but also not what does your day look like?
Butch Redoblato (05:25):
Yeah, yeah. So look, I'm a one-man show. I own the Lakes physio. I'm in a medical centre, and so my rooms being in the medical centre, I am predominantly in the clinic doing treatment. I'm a very hands-on type of physio because I do believe in the fundamentals of physiotherapy being a very hands on profession. So I'm always in the clinic, and if I'm not, I'm doing admin either in the clinic or at a cafe or something like that. But my day is split between treating clients in the clinic and every now and then I will go out to do gym rehabs with patients because I'm a massive advocate for rehabilitation in the gym setting. I think it's the best way to regain function that's been lost through injury or trying to be built up, for example. So I'll be there for a good maybe 30% of my week. And yeah, that's probably the generic split, 70 to 30, 70% in the clinic, 30% gym rehab. And also every now and then I'll do the occasional home visit to a client's house if they can't for whatever reason in the clinic.
Brock Ashby (06:47):
Yeah, I think that's so important, what you said around people actually say dealing with an injury or dealing with discomfort and actually training through it. So many people will get injured or say, hurt their lower back, hurt their knee, hurt their shoulder, hurt their elbow, whatever they're experiencing, and just go, I'm going to take two weeks off to make it get better. Which I guess having rest can help, but also you need to strengthen areas around the injury because you can train around things. You don't have to train through it, which is I think a very different way to think if you can train, because if something hurts, just don't keep doing it. But there is some sort of elements of pain as well that you need to strengthen things up. But what are the most common injuries that you are dealing with?
Butch Redoblato (07:38):
Yeah, so in the gym-based setting, this is quite, I guess a broad question, but I want to categorise it into two main types of injuries there. So you've got your acute injuries and your overuse. Your acute injuries are obviously that sort of one instance or one episode of an overload, and then you feel an injury and usually a patient comes in here and they'll tell me, oh, I remember I was exactly doing whatever, a deadlift or a squat and I felt my back go, that kind of thing. And then you've got your overuse injuries, which is, they're the ones that I probably see more commonly in the gym-based sitting, they're like an addition of micro strain or micro tearing where the body doesn't quite heal enough and then you just do it again and it's just repetition of that micro strain over a period of time.
(08:38):
And then we get into this and then all of a sudden you pass this threshold and the Y axis of when it is too much and when does the body start to produce pain? And over time you pass that threshold and all of a suddenly you realise, oh, I'm a little bit sore. So you've got your cutin for the acute. The biggest one definitely is low back pain, and it is pertaining to the heavier we go. We have to and as well men, we have to keep our spine relatively neutral, especially if we're doing things like your deads and your squats. So if that doesn't quite happen correctly, then we get into that situation of low back pain. That's usually from things like a bulging disc or a herniated disc in really severe cases where it pinches on the nerve and you get things like sciatica. But also when that kind of happens, it could also be ligaments being torn from that really heavy load in that position sort of thing. But yeah, so bulging disc is definitely a really common one that I treat from an acute overload perspective.
Brock Ashby (10:03):
So with those acute situations, especially with lower back, and I can speak from experience, I've been in a place where I've needed a needed help. What's your first steps, and I know it may differ between what's sitting in front of you, but with lower back pain, what's your first steps of actually getting better and starting to improve? Because it's so discouraging because your lower back is such a centre for everything that you do. You bend down to pick something up, it hurts, try to stand up from sitting down, it hurts. You go to the bathroom, it hurts. You open the fridge to reach down for some milk and it hurts. How do you get people on the path to recovery?
Butch Redoblato (10:43):
Yeah, like you said, it does sort of vary depending on what I see in the clinic and the mechanism of injury, because you've got to obviously formally diagnose, but I'll talk from what's most common, which is a bulging disc situation. I actually don't advocate for long periods of risks. So I would say try keep moving to some degree, even if it means you just go for a 15 minute walk, because I think the blood flow that you achieve doing that helps with promoting healing. If we just stay stagnant, you're not really doing that as efficiently. I understand sometimes it's very severe and if even a walk is too much for patients, I'll be like, well, if you are in a supine or lying down position, why not pump your ankles up and down? Or even just slightly bend your knees up and down or swing your arms, just produce some sort of movement to get a bit of blood flow.
(11:55):
And then I try to teach ways that they can go about doing their daily functions safely for their back. And so say they did, for example, do their knee in the gym, then going down to pick something up can be really sore. I'll say, well, why not? Sort of squat where you really bend the knee into flexion. How about hip hinge and do more of a deadlift to go and do that, which is a similar sort of movement. It's just utilising the knee. The other one's utilising the hip, so trying. Or if for example, going down into that deep flexion really aggravates a herniated disc if they go down more in a split squat position, because usually with a herniated disc man, you get it more on one side. So for this side, say if it's my right side, then I'll go, okay, we'll go down into a split squat position or a lunge position to pick something up and have your right side as your back leg so it's straighter and not going into that flexion, things like that. So just giving them tips on how to go about their daily life without having to, because I think if you then get into that kind of pain avoidance behaviour, that actually becomes negative. And then there's a lot of avoidance of social situations like catching up with friends and all that, or family just because they're worried their back's going to go again. And my philosophy is a busy, I want to just nail that. Like, no, you can still do that. Here's how I want you to achieve it. So
Brock Ashby (13:39):
Yeah, and I think that's very important what you're saying. You have to, as I kind of touched on before, you have to really manage that pain and not avoid it because yeah, if you avoid something, then you're less confident and then that can pour into other areas of your life. How do you manage that threshold and ultimately tell someone it needs to hurt for you to get better because no one wants to hear that because they've just hurt their back or throwing it out. They're like, well, I just want to get better. So how do you manage that threshold? That must be quite difficult to say someone, Hey, this is going to hurt, but it's good for you. Don't
Butch Redoblato (14:20):
Worry. That's it. And actually, it's really funny. A lot of my patients will give me a lot of crap for that because I always say, look, the old, no pain, no gain, just go and do it. Which I actually hate as a saying, but yeah, but there is a bit of truth in that. You sort just have to figure out when is it becoming excessive and unhealthy for the client or the patient? If they're avoiding things that they should be doing, then that's not good If they've had to take time off work, oh no, because sitting down really aggravates my back. Well, how about have a chat to HR and get a standup desk just trying to, and it is trial and error. You have to sort of, I'll give my advice that we'll do that picking up situation again, get into a split squat rather than reaching forward.
(15:16):
And if they tell me second time or that doesn't quite work, then I'll alter it. I'll tell 'em, okay, well instead do this and that. But it is managing that threshold as you've asked, is trial and error. And it just depends on, I'll give my generic advice of keep moving and based on what they've presented with, I'll be like, okay, well, this is how I want you to do things. This is how I want you to pick something up. And if that doesn't work, I'll make them do a couple of movements in the clinic to try and see, okay, well this is how we'll do it instead. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (15:53):
I think it's very important you're touching on to give people solutions, which is what you're doing because, so when I threw out my back, I was squatting and it was like 9:00 PM I was undersleep, I'd just done a huge, so I was face-to-face, personal training at the time. I'd done a huge day somewhere around 14 clients. It was just massive. I started at 6:00 AM and I hadn't finished my programme. I was so frustrated. I just had three sets of squats to do, and I was like, okay, I'm just going to do them. I was tired and I probably just should have went home, but I was like, all right, I'll get under the barbell. And I loaded up and I was squatting one 20, which was still a pretty decent amount of weight, like a pretty good weight, but it wasn't really near my top. But when I went down, something went on one side, like a touchstone, and I couldn't stand up, so I couldn't actually straighten my spine. I was so sore. So I actually just laid down on the ground for five minutes and no one was in the gym. It was quite extra. It was actually quite, there was no one around. I was just like, oh man, this does not feel good. So I actually had to walk
(17:07):
Hunched over and I had to keep my spine flexed. I called an Uber and I was like, I'm sorry, man, I'm just going to have to lie down in the back. Just forgive me. I'll take the fine if I'm not wearing a seatbelt. And I just lay there. And I got home. And then when I got out, I still had to stay flexed, and I kind of crawled up the stairs. It was really bad. And I got into bed, I went to sleep. I woke up and I couldn't stand up. So I called my clients the next day and I actually didn't know what to do. I really was struggling for things to do, and I actually had to get an ambulance come over the next morning and do some stuff. And this kind of annoyed me. They're like, oh, you'll be fine. And I was like, man, I can't stand up.
(17:54):
I'm not just going to be fine. They're like, oh, just lay on your back and put your legs side to side. And that really frustrated me because I didn't feel better. And luckily I had a client that was helping. They didn't give me anything for the pain, and it was excruciating. I actually tried to stand up at home and I blacked out because of the pain. And that's the first time I'd ever blacked out. And I was living on my own at the time, so this was pretty scary stuff. I was like, whoa, I really need to sort this out. But because I was a personal trainer, I did have a physio nearby and they really, really saved me. Apparently it was like a muscle spasm, and I know a lot of physios have a lot of different opinions around the experience,
Butch Redoblato (18:36):
But
Brock Ashby (18:37):
I did some dry needling, and then I also just had to change the way that I was training because I did it in squats. And one thing I'd like to get to is, as you touched on things like split squats and doing things differently, everyone thinks to get a good set of legs, you have to do squats or you have to do dead lifts, but it's just not the case if you can't back squat or for some reason your body cannot perform a squat with good technique at the moment, there's a tonne of options. You can do a split squat, you can do a Bulgarian split squat, you can do step-ups, you can do a lunge, you can do front foot, elevated split squats, rear foot elevated. There's so many options. So what kind of exercises do you give people if they can't, and I know you're not a personal trainer where you're riding out workout programmes, but what sort of things are you giving people if they hurt their lower back inner squat or in a deadlift, what are you prescribing?
Butch Redoblato (19:39):
So if for example, we'll use that bulging disc situation, which occurs when there's excessive load and then it just forces the spine into a little bit of flexion, or sorry, too much flexion. And then you get that disc popping posteriorly or backwards.
Brock Ashby (20:01):
Yeah, so spinal flexion for most people, just in case they don't really understand what that is, that's just rounding of the lower back. Right? Just so that correct. So we're on the same page. Yeah, yeah. Alright, continue.
Butch Redoblato (20:11):
Absolutely. Yeah. So rounding of the lower back and then the disc will go backwards. And so simple logic will tell us that we have to do the opposite to try and push it back into position. So there's a physio, actually New Zealand based called McKenzie, and he did a lot of research on the disc mechanics and all that. And he recommends actually getting into an extension position and sustaining it. So for example, your story of doing it in a squat safe, that was a bulging disc situation, I would try and get you to lie on your tummy and pop yourself up almost like so you're lying on your belly and you're propped up on your elbows and you're only extending your upper back and just see if you can hold that for a couple minutes or so. And when that becomes, if that's tolerable, I'll get them to do sort of I guess half pushups where they're lying face down and just arching that back up almost like a cat stretch and doing that 10 times.
(21:27):
And that's just the mechanics of that. It's pushing that disc back forwards. And then for gym rehab, exercise, sorry, gym exercises, you'll want to just change it up so that they don't get into too much loaded flexion. So if their goals are still to, like you said, develop their legs, I will probably say, okay, well let's just not squat for X amount of time and instead for your quads, let's do some knee extension for hammies. We'll do your prone hamstring curls maybe more. I would recommend that, I mean obviously if they're seeing a personal chain, I'd be like to speak to your PT about altering your programmes and you don't do too much loaded flexion and just stick with maybe machine based.
Brock Ashby (22:23):
I'm not sure
Butch Redoblato (22:23):
If that answers your question,
Brock Ashby (22:24):
But No, it does. But I think also, and this is to kind of jump thought patterns. Now sometimes the personal trainer could be the problem, and I can only say this from experience as a personal trainer, that there's many personal trainers that aren't getting their clients to follow a programme or check in with them frequently. Like myself and a few other personal trainers, we were the anomaly in our gym because we had programmes. We were walking around with an iPad saying, how'd you go? How'd you go? How'd you go? But I'd see some of the other trainers clients get to the gym without the client wondering what to do. And I think this is so wrong ultimately because I think it's our duty as personal trainers to look after the client because if they're not following a programme that's structured, then things that you were talking about before, overuse injuries could potentially occur because people, when they get into the gym ultimately just do what they want to do. So say if I'm a dude and I'm into the gym and I see my trainer, we have a good workout, smashes me, whatever, but then when I go in, all I'm doing is chest, all I'm doing is shoulders, all I'm doing is the beach muscles that I want to get developed.
Butch Redoblato (23:42):
Then
Brock Ashby (23:43):
When I come back to the trainer and just do my random, again, I'm not really making any progress and potentially the personal trainer without knowing just because he's he or she, sorry, is not providing a programme or making sure their forms awesome, checking up on them frequently, and they're potentially just getting these overuse injuries. And I know a common one, especially for men because we love to train chest and shoulders and triceps and biceps. We get a lot of overuse in elbows but also in shoulders.
Butch Redoblato (24:17):
Correct.
Brock Ashby (24:19):
What have you seen? Is that correct? Are you seeing similar things?
Butch Redoblato (24:23):
Yeah, yeah. Took the words out of my mouth, man. But definitely elbows and essentially because everything we do, even, not everything, but most things we do in the gym, Hey, we grip a lot, we, so we are going to get a lot of ovus injuries relating to just the grouping. And the biggest thing for that is tendon problems, tendonitis or tendinopathies, which I reckon the most common one is your tennis elbow or lateral epic dalal or epicondylitis. And that's where all your wrist sort of extensors converge on a tendon on your outer part of your elbow called the common extensor tendon. And that's when you following the theory of overuse injuries, it's just micro strain over time. They don't have enough ability, sorry, they don't get given the time to heal before it's again, another overload and then all of a sudden we get these, the strain gets a little too much now and then the pain generates. So yeah, tennis elbows are a big one. Analogous to that, you've got your rotator cuff tendonitis and tendinopathies two, the rotator cuff obviously being the four deepest layer of shoulder musculature from a shoulder blade to arm bone or humerus. And the top one sort of around this area here is your supraspinatus, which is involved in everything we do basically overhead and even a little bit of forward pressing, but certainly overhead pressing that has to be in full action. So we can get ovus injuries relating to that too.
Brock Ashby (26:10):
So how can people not get these overuse injuries? And obviously you can say, well, just don't use it as much, but what's a way that we can do that in a structured way?
Butch Redoblato (26:23):
Yeah, absolutely, man. I think it's in the programme, it's in how appropriately load the tendon and you give it the time that it needs to rest and recover as well. How you load it and how you increase that load over a period of time. And sometimes you won't know that you've overloaded it. You could have every right intention of doing it, and then you start to feel a little bit niggly afterwards, then you'll give that the time it needs to settle down and you'll know for next time, instead of building it up by 5%, I might just drop it even lower depending on what your body can handle, but it is in how you load the tendon. That's where we prevent the injuries.
Brock Ashby (27:21):
Yeah, I think that's what I was touching on as well, such a responsibility that we have as personal trainers because let's put the people that go to the gym on their own aside. Obviously they're going to have to figure out trial and error or follow programmes or just do whatever they want, but that kind of puts them in that position. But with personal training, it's so important that you have a balanced programme, and I wanted to ask you to see what your opinion was and you answered it greatly. But I also wanted to touch on the importance of having a balanced programme.
(28:00):
And I've done your programme when we previously worked together, so you're probably analysing it going, oh, I don't know about this, or There's too much push and there's not enough pull and all this kind of stuff. But I think the biggest problem is actually for men just to kind of dive into that, is doing too many push exercises and not enough pull, and that doesn't allow us to recover enough. So like you're saying, we get these micro tears when we're training and our muscles are micro tearing and then they repair, and then that's essentially how they come bigger and stronger to put muscle building really simply. But if we're doing chest on Monday, chest on Wednesday, chest on Thursday, chest on Friday, then there's these tears potentially in our elbows because they're continually getting used with a chest press, with a tricep dip, with a dumbbell tricep extension, all this kind of overuse.
(28:51):
It's so important that you have that balance programme of having a push day or chest, shoulders, triceps, and then having a full biceps rows and actually allowing your body to develop strength in both movement patterns, pushes and pulls. And then also with arms, not just training all biceps because that is a lot of grip and training triceps as well. It's super important. And I guess the same could be said for the legs. A lot of dudes will just train quads because that's what you see in the mirror. You pull your shorts up and you see this, the quad tear, sorry, the teardrop, and you're like, oh, yeah, that looks sick. I'm just going to sit on the leg extension and do 10 sets.
Butch Redoblato (29:32):
That's it. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (29:33):
That's it. It's so important to train these opposing muscle groups. Is that something you encourage your clients to do?
Butch Redoblato (29:39):
A hundred percent. And you only have to look at the stats man for how common injuries occur, especially tendonitis or tendinopathies man, you have way more the prevalence, I guess, of tennis elbow, which would be used more in your push programmes or situations. The prevalence is higher than developing golfers elbow, which is the opposite. Your golfers elbows more the tendonitis related to flexion type of movements, which is typically used more in your pool days. So yeah, having that balance, it just avoids that from developing a hundred percent, man. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (30:25):
Also, before we kind of wrap this up, I've got a couple of questions left for you. I did a q and a, and one thing that I really wanted to dive into, someone asked some tips As you get older now, I know that that's super broad and you can't just say, oh, as you get older, this is what you have to do as a physiotherapist. But as people age in the gym, and not necessarily they're hitting into their nineties, but just people maybe reaching their peak and then acknowledging, oh, I'm not recovering as well, my body's not feeling the same. I feel a bit more beat up. What do you see happen in older populations and what do you often recommend them to do?
Butch Redoblato (31:11):
Yeah, look, biggest recommendation, like I said, when you do a major acute episode of an injury, just get moving again. And that's the biggest thing. I really don't care what it is, whether it's just going for a walk or going swimming or if they want to go to the gym, I'll obviously push for that because I love the gym, but I just think they just need to keep maintaining movement. And it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. If you don't use it, you lose it, which is actually true. Yeah, it actually is true because as we get older, unfortunately things do happen, like muscle wasting atrophy and that kind of stuff, the bone density does decrease, and how do we combat that movement? It's exactly what we got to do. And so yeah, I'll just usually give that advice and if they've never exercised in their life and they're trying to get into it again, then I'll just give them very a generic sort of like, okay, well, how about aim for three times a week? What do you like to do? Oh, I can handle a bit of walking. Okay, let's go for a 30 minute walk three times a week and then just build it up from there. But yeah, just promoting that movement, Brock, I think that's the key thing. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (32:36):
Yeah. I think as we get older as well, I think it's important to know that actually maintaining muscle mass doesn't take as much effort as it does to build muscle mass. So when we build muscle mass and we get more advanced as a beginner, it's relatively easy because our body's not used to much stimulus. But as we go from intermediate to advanced and we train and we train and we train, muscle building is so hard. I can tell you personally, after 14 years of training, I'm fighting for half a pound of muscle anywhere and I'm trying to increase my weights by 1.25 kg anywhere that's, as you become more advanced, it's just harder and harder and harder. But if I wanted to maintain my muscle mass, I could probably get away with training two or three times per week just to maintain it. And I think that's so important to know as you get older, you don't have to train like Arnold Schwartzenegger did to become Mr. Olympia. You literally just need to take your muscles through a range of motion, getting slightly close to failure, hitting every movement pattern, do a push, do a pull, horizontal push, vertical pull, vertical push, horizontal pull arms, some accessory work, hip dominant, knee dominant knee, and then you're winning. It's not actually impossible, but this will do tonnes for the elderly population, as you were saying, we do get muscle degradation, which can be called sarcopenia or atrophy, whatever it is. But
(34:10):
That kind of fragility would also rob them of confidence because I've seen that too with my grandma, with my nana, she was always out in the garden. She was chopping wood and we were like, Nana, you can't do that, man. You can't be chopping wood. You can't be throwing around that axe as you're approaching your nineties. But she's super stubborn, old school style. She'll be out in the garden still doing it,
Butch Redoblato (34:38):
Definitely.
Brock Ashby (34:39):
But yeah, that's super important to just acknowledge that you don't have to be sweating and doing heavy baba back spots because that kind of scares the older population. And you do want them to be confident so that they can meet up with their friends coffee and all that and just feel like, okay, my knee's not going to give away while I'm walking. Like you said, all my long, that's not going to give up because as you get older, you need to see friends and there's other aspects of life, but just having a foundation of fitness can really help them.
Butch Redoblato (35:15):
And actually that's definitely learning that for you. Just then, man, I think I'll start using that in the clinic just saying that, you know what? It doesn't take much to maintain. I think if I say that, that's more going to be uplifting and build confidence. And if I may as well, bro, I want to share professional story and she's going to kill me for saying this, but I love my mom and she's had a love hate relationship with exercise and I'm always upper her back about exercising. And she's finally this year joined the gym and awesome. Did a lot of walking. And prior to that man, she was complaining of everything like hip pain. And there's a common thing that happens unfortunately more in ladies called plantar fasciitis, which is a tendon problem in the foot, and she was hard out complaining of that. And then she started exercising more this year and walking, and then all of a sudden that's gone. And she's a lot stronger with her grandkids and things like that. And it's great. Look, I can finally see all the nagging that I've been doing coming to fruition. But yeah, no, I'm going to definitely start using that line. It doesn't take much to maintain, just get out and you don't have to sweat and carry a massive weight to achieve a better, I would say a better body, but just better usage of our body, I guess. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (36:43):
And also a higher quality of life, which seems to be, I guess, what's the word, potentially decrease over time because your body's not doing what you want and maybe you're unable to have as much freedom as you wanted to when you were younger. But just empowering them to have that enjoyment in life and making sure that their body is actually helping them along with life as opposed to being such an obstacle, which is very common as you get older. And one thing we saw, my fiance and I when we moved over, so we've recently moved house this year, but in Mossman over here, there's tonnes of people that have just retired and they're in their budgie smugglers and they're swimming every morning and I'm like, this is so good. They got their pink swimmers on and they got their pink caps on. They have this kind of crew, but swimming is so good, man. Sorry, swimming is so good because there's no impact.
Butch Redoblato (37:42):
Hundred
Brock Ashby (37:42):
Percent with running. Maybe that repetitive impact while they're running wouldn't be the best thing for them. But swimming is awesome and it's easy on the joints. You can still get an awesome workout. It's good for their heart. They're burning a tonne of calories and they're being social as well while they're out there. And I want to touch on as well, you love running. As we were going through your transformation, which if you guys didn't see my Instagram post, butch dropped 12 kg and got stronger, dropped a tonne of fat, built some awesome muscle, got stronger, made some awesome progress, but what he was doing also was running half marathons. And wasn't full marathons in there as well?
Butch Redoblato (38:26):
No, no, just half and one 20 5K, which is four Ks over the half is 2021. Yeah, it's
Brock Ashby (38:33):
Long enough.
Butch Redoblato (38:34):
Long. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (38:37):
It's long enough. But yeah, you were really pushing that, which was awesome to see because especially with a lot of people when they lift weights, they join this anti cardio team. So it was cool to see that you were pursuing both because it doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. You just have to manage recovery and stuff. But with running as well, a lot of people in lockdown turned into runners because that was all that they had. Gyms were closed, maybe they didn't have dumbbells or they had kids at home and there just wasn't enough space or whatever. But with running does come the impact of the knees quite a lot. What do you see and what do you recommend for that? I know this can be quite broad, but I know that with running, especially me coaching a lot of clients, people like, oh, I'm doing a lot of running, but my knees are a bit sore. What should I do? And I kind of usually recommend them to pull back to walking or even get into something like swimming or maybe using the elliptical where there's less pressure on their knees or less repetition.
(39:41):
What do you see and what do you usually recommend people to do?
Butch Redoblato (39:45):
I'm curious. And with running, obviously I'm going to talk more from a insurance running perspective being that it is the overuse injuries again coming into effect. So your tendonitis is, and tendinopathy another major one in these. So common ones I see a lot of are patella tendon notices, which just for those out there, it's the tendon on the lower part of your kneecap going to the top part of your shin bone. Another common one is the ITB, the I tibial band, which is still a tendon problem as well. And that can present as pain on the outer part of or your knee. So those are the two big ones that we see. And again, like any overuse injuries, brackets, it's a training man, it, it's how they've loaded themselves and something along the lines, just more often than not, their training volume just rapidly increased without them sometimes without them even realising.
(40:57):
But volume can also, it's not just your distance, it's also your frequency. I have people coming in here and going, oh, I've just been running 5K. And then halfway through a session they'll tell me, but you know what? I did it four times this week rather than two. Well that's exactly why. Then let's maybe try three and stick with that for a month before going to four times a week. And then also for training terrain, if you've always run on concrete and then you decide, okay, I'm just going to do a beach run, that's a bit of a recipe for disaster too. So you'll have to make them do maybe a bit of running on grass first before or softer terrain before trying to get into the beach running sort of thing. And hills too, man, like inclines and declines if all they've ever done.
(41:53):
And that's why I really get into how they're actually training and the kind of terrain that they're training on. Are they running on flat ground versus inclines because you'll be able to pick where it's sort of gone a little bit wrong, and then that's led to their injury. And it can also be like the footwear too. If they've got new shoes and then they took them for a spin and did 10 K straight off the bat, that can be also something that would lead to an abuse injury as well. But when you are dealing with it, say it's really angry, you've got really angry tendonitis, like what you've just said, definitely do an alternative because you can still use, really work your heart and lungs and all that by getting on an elliptical or a cross-train or a rowing machine or whatever, swimming, just so you get the cardiovascular component going. And until we drop that level of pain down, which occurs when natural healing has happened, then we can start to load it up through running again. But yeah, pushing for that alternative for cardio. And then as we recover, build up on that.
Brock Ashby (43:05):
So how did you manage your running? Because you, I'm not too sure if you were massively into running when we first started, but then pretty soon you were running half marathons. How did you progress it? Because it's so tempting just to go out there and go, okay, I'm training for a half marathon. I'm going to run one, or I'm going to do 10 k and then a couple days later I'll do 20 and then I'll just do 20 every single day. Because especially running attracts certain personalities and they're very competitive. They want to beat times and I'm sure your brain takes like that. So how do you manage that competitive nature so you have adequate recovery and long-term beneficial for you and not detrimental?
Butch Redoblato (43:48):
Correct. Yeah, I just want to start by saying, yeah, I was always into running before I started training with you. So that was always, and I would go for, my baseline is always twice a week. I'll do like a middle, usually Wednesday lightish run, I guess, which is anywhere between five to eight K. And then I'll go into a Sunday run, which is a little bit longer, and that can be anywhere between 15 and above sort of thing. But yeah, I don't know. I just, in a way, I'm lucky I just followed that with my own physio knowledge. I started running in 2017 and I just never really got injured. But mind you, my running is, I just keep it basically flat. I don't do too much inclines. But yeah. Sorry, what was the question? How do I manage?
Brock Ashby (44:45):
Yeah, how did you manage not to get injured and work your way up to doing these half marathons? Because you were still, now that we know still running, but I'm sure you would've had a game plan going into it. So I think if there's any runners listening, it would help for them if they want to do a half marathon or even build up to this full marathon, how could they increase from where they are to get, is there any kind of, what's the word, checkpoints that they could do to get there?
Butch Redoblato (45:19):
I think if you're trying to say train for a half marathon, it's laying out the length of time you want to build up for it. So say for example, if I committed to a half marathon today, and at this point in time I've only been doing five Ks, I would say maybe do it middle of next year as a goal and then programme that through that six months of how you're going to gradually increase your mileage and knowing it pays to know the event you want to do as well or your overall goal. Because if it's just going to be road running, there's no need to be running and doing trail running, that kind of stuff. So just knowing that's right, knowing what you want to do and then just gradually building it up. And I think for me what worked was building, I think it was 2K every two weeks or something like that.
(46:23):
So a kilometre, basically a week of building it up and never getting to, I actually heard this from a running coach, but you never train to the distance you're going to compete in or your maximum distance as part of your training. You sort of go to half the marathon is 21, so I only ever would run if I'm training for one up to 18 K. Yeah. So before we met each other I was already doing that anyway, doing the running. So I just set a personal goal this year to try and do five half marathons in one that was a little extra to see if I didn't have the mentality to then train for a full. So my most recent one, I did a Gold Coast run and it was 25 Ks. And yeah, it was pretty rough. And I know that I have to again, really lay out the plan of how I'm going to tackle that goal to achieve a full, because I was getting close, I could, I was getting close to that overuse situation at the end there, man. So yeah, it's all in the planning, bro.
Brock Ashby (47:32):
Yeah, I had a, well, not a similar experience, I completely stuffed it up, but when was this? It was maybe three years ago. I did a black ball half marathon and I had no idea. I'm not a runner as you know, I'm not the before runner. Actually, when I was younger, I was a cross country runner, but this was younger, maybe 10 years old because I was a real light kind of skinny guy. But then when you get into gym, the muscle kind of starts holding you back. And I was doing a half marathon, but I was like, man, I can't really be bothered training for it. So a couple of weeks before it I was like, I'll go for a 10 K and then I'll just double it later. And this is probably what a few
Butch Redoblato (48:15):
You gave into the clinic, bro,
Brock Ashby (48:19):
Or I wish I had this podcast beforehand. So I did a 10, I think it was a 10 K run or maybe even 12 from Bondi. I did the Bondi to Ji and all the way back and I did it. I didn't have running shoes either, and I just put on some shoes that I thought would be the best and they weren't. I ran there and I came back and I stopped the next day I was absolutely shattered, but one thing that I'd never experienced is plantar fasciitis. So underneath the bottom of my feet was absolutely hammered. So I was like, oh, I'll do that 10 and then I'll keep building up up until, but I actually couldn't run for the entire three weeks up until because they were sore, the bottoms of my feet were so sore, sore. So I couldn't even do split squats because just having my foot up that
Butch Redoblato (49:14):
Was
Brock Ashby (49:16):
Causing a tonne of pain. So my training with legs went down, my running went back to zero. So then when I did the 21 or the half marathon, they were still sore and I was trying to roll it with a golf ball and do all this kind of
Butch Redoblato (49:32):
Stuff on
Brock Ashby (49:33):
The bottom of my feet, but it wasn't working. And absolute, I wasn't trying to break any records, but I didn't do very well with my run because I was just so sore. I didn't recover. I just did the whole shotgun approach, which most people probably do like, oh, I'm just going to do one run beforehand and then I'll be all good. But after that half marathon, it was the same thing for a couple weeks,
Butch Redoblato (49:55):
I couldn't
Brock Ashby (49:56):
Train legs or it really screws you up if you don't prepare.
Butch Redoblato (50:00):
Yeah, exactly. And you know what? I did do a lot of my half marathons admittedly in succession. I think three of them were like two weeks apart. And when I tell patients that, they just tell me you're crazy, first of all. And secondly they go, how are you not injured? But what they don't know is I have been running, I always run, it's a weekly thing for me. It's not like it's an overload. I've never run past 21 Ks, so I just know that I can achieve it because I have planned for it. So I think it just comes down to planning, man. And like you said, for your one, it was a shotgun approach. And look, that happens anywhere. We do it in the gym too and then we come away with an injury. So it's just how we load, bro, how we increase it over that time, that's going to lead to success rather than developing injuries and that kind of stuff.
Brock Ashby (50:56):
Mei, thank you so much for your time. I don't want to hold you any longer. All good. Where can people find you, man? I love your approach. I'm sure a lot of people love your approach to physio and being hands-on. And actually, to be honest, I've had a lot of potentially negative, probably negative experience with physio. And that's not to do with anything of your industry. Maybe as I've kind of been dealt with as a client, maybe I haven't necessarily agreed or just understood the approach that we are taking. I think that's a big one, and I love how you touch on things and actually explaining to the client, look, use it or lose it, or we're going to have to have a little bit of pain. These things I was never told when I was injured, especially when I did my lower back, it was just like, oh yeah, do these stretches, do these exercises and go. And I was like, well, when am I going to be better? Or why am I doing this? I had no idea what I'm doing. So I love your explaining the science behind it and really getting close to the patient. How can people find you
(52:02):
Work with you if they can?
Butch Redoblato (52:05):
Yeah, so I called the Lakes Physio. If you jump on Instart and just put that on your search bar, no spaces or underscores or anything. The Lakes Physio, it's a blue Running Man logo and it's for those that reside in Brisbane, it's in Springfield Lakes in the western suburbs. And feel free to just shoot me a message about anything and I'll see if I can help within obviously my capacity. I do want to see people in the clinic first and do an assessment before I'm giving out specific advice I guess, and that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (52:47):
And what's next for you, man? Is there anything you're working on? Do you want to expand the practise or do you want to learn more? What's coming up for you?
Butch Redoblato (52:58):
Yeah, yeah. I'm in the process at the moment of expanding. I've got a remedial massage therapist starting up very soon. And then I'm in the hunt for another physio because I'll be working out at this medical centre and a big gym being built, actually just not far from where I'm currently at. So I'll have the two areas going and it's the first bit of growth for the Lakes physio, so pretty exciting times ahead.
Brock Ashby (53:28):
Awesome, man. That's great. Well, appreciate your time man. And everyone, if you're listening, if you want to work with him at the Lakes Physio, no Spaces Correct is where you find no spaces.
Butch Redoblato (53:38):
Yep.
Brock Ashby (53:39):
Awesome man. Thanks so much for coming on, brother.
Butch Redoblato (53:42):
Thank you, bro. Appreciate it, man. And thank you for all your help with my own transformation too, bro. I really appreciate it.
Brock Ashby (53:48):
Awesome, man. That's great.
Brock Ashby (00:00):
Welcome to episode number four of the Better with Brought podcast. In this episode, we are going to tackle the ultimate question, can you build muscle and lose weight? This is probably the most asked question that I get and it's so hard to answer in my Instagram story daily q and as that I'm doing, and even in a caption on Instagram, and I really wanted to break it down. Now, this is going to be a shorter podcast around 15 to 20 minutes, but I just really wanted to dive into this question because it's the ultimate goal when we're looking at transforming our body. How can we lose body fat but also build muscle mass at the same time so we're not just getting bigger and increasing our muscle mass, but we're also getting leaner and we're dropping body fat, we're losing weight. So we're kind of getting best of both worlds in this ideal situation that people are always asking about.
(00:56):
And before I answer it and give an answer, I want to kind of break down how each process happens. How do we build muscle, how do we lose weight? And I'll start off with building muscle, and I want to open this up with something that annoys a lot of people, but it's just the truth that we cannot avoid. Muscle building is a very slow process. It's so much slower than losing fat. When we are losing fat, we can lose, say AKGs, and eight weeks quite well if you have that amount of weight to lose. That's very possible. But it's very hard to see someone build a KG of pure muscle mass in eight weeks. It just doesn't happen like that. Muscle mass is very hard to produce and create. And I'm not saying this to be a Debbie Downer and say, don't try and do it because it's so hard.
(01:53):
It's definitely worthwhile, but it just isn't a process that's as fast as fat loss. And that's one thing that stumps people straight away and kind of kills their motivation when they try to build muscle. Because I've dealt with a lot of clients who have lost substantial amounts of fat in a fat loss phase. And then my next conversation is, okay, now we have to build muscle. Now that we've lost this fat because we don't just want to lose this fat and then just maintain and plateau and stop making progress, there's always progress to be made. So let's start building muscle. And then as soon as we go into that phase, I prep everyone to say, look, this may not be as fast as our fat loss progress was, but this is how we're going to measure progress, et cetera, et cetera. And then when they get into it, it's a bit hard.
(02:43):
It's a tough pill to swallow because you are looking in the mirror, you're not really seeing many changes because when you lose, if I go back to that example, when you lose eight kg of body fat, you look like a completely different person. You are leaner. Maybe you went from not having abs to having abs. Maybe you went from not seeing veins on your biceps to seeing veins on your biceps. It's very different. But when you're building muscle, you have to have this bigger picture mentality because you go from, you kind of do the opposite because often, which I'll touch on later on, building muscle actually requires you to be in a calorie surplus to eat more calories than you burn. So you actually end up gaining a bit of body fat. So you often go from having lean abs that you're very proud of, let's say, to just a flat stomach and losing your abs, which is a bit like, oh, I thought we were making progress, but I feel like I'm going backwards or going from having veins in your bicep and looking vascular when you train to not looking vascular when you train and kind of looking a bit flat.
(03:49):
So we have to remember that when we are building muscle, this is a timely process. We have to be patient. So how do we actually build muscle to break it down simply to build muscle? We ultimately have to give our body or our muscles a stimulus that it hasn't received before so that we can give it a stimulus and then that can result in an adaptation where our muscle grows or repairs and then grows. That's ultimately what building muscle is, and that's why we're always encouraging, and I say we as personal trainers, as strength coaches, as people that are highly recommending physical activity, whoever it may be, if it's your coach or your auntie or your uncle or your dad, progressive overload is how we continue that muscle building process when we are lifting weight. So if we just lift the same weights for, that's not going to tell our muscles that we need to repair and grow and become bigger and become stronger because there's no stimulus that's saying, Hey, we need some more muscle to do this.
(05:00):
So if you lift the same amount of weight forever, you will result in not having any progress. And that's why I am currently going to a gym in Sydney where there's a lot of old people in the gym because it's connected to an RSL. So there's a lot of elderly population training, and I understand fitness has completely changed and revolutionised since maybe they were kind of educated on fitness or were around the fitness industry, but I see them no programme. And this doesn't just have to be elderly people as well. It can be just normal people in the gym just doing the same weights, doing the same exercises, training at the same intensity, not so much the elderly people, but heaps of younger people looking at their phones in between sets and just training at this low intensity that is not going to help you build muscle.
(05:56):
You need to at an intensity and ask of your muscle, are you going to grow from this? Is this a stimulus that you've never seen before? Because if it is, I know that we're going to grow. And if you are just training like a wet fish and kind of just wasting your time, then it's put it simply, you're not going to build muscle like that. You're not going to build muscle if you're not training hard. That's why you see even some people that follow the worst training programmes that have kind of horrendous form and they're going in the gym, but they're training hard, they're absolutely giving it their all. They are asking their body or demanding their body, Hey, look at the stimulus. I'm going to keep doing this. I'm going to make it even harder next week and then harder next week and then harder next week.
(06:44):
I'm going to need some help. So let's bring some new muscle in. So I guess that's how we kind of build muscle. That is how we demand our muscle mass to be built from our body. We need to ask a stimulus from the muscle so that we get a response which results in an adaptation which results in our muscles repairing and growing. So that is simply how we build muscle. It sounds really simple, but pushing hard. And as you get stronger, as you get stronger, as you become more advanced, it does get harder to build muscle because those increments that you're increasing weights with, let's say become smaller. You can't put TKG on your squat every week for the rest of your life because then you'll be squatting two tonnes by the time you die. There is this kind of point where this point of diminishing returns where it doesn't always, you're not always increasing by 10, but you always have to be kind of trying to train at that intensity where you're pushing your boundaries with your muscle mass.
(07:47):
So now to answer the question, how do we actually lose weight? Well, if you've been following me for a while, if you've been around the industry for at least a year or two, you'll understand the two words. Calorie deficit. I say this, wow, maybe three to 10 times per day. And a calorie deficit is ultimately to explain it in layman's terms. Like someone has asked me on my Instagram stories, layman terms of a calorie deficit is just burning more calories than you consume. So that gap in the calories. So let's say you burn 2,500 calories per day, but you only consume 2000, then you've burnt 500 calories more than you've consumed. Therefore, that gap is called calorie deficit. And from that calorie deficit, our body takes fuel from our body fat. So we burn our body fat as fuel, and that is how we decrease body fat and decrease weight in a calorie deficit.
(08:46):
And it's been confused a lot with method versus principles and let me break that down. So there's methods, there's fat loss methods, the keto diet, intermittent fasting, eating a plant-based diet, going vegetarian, eating paleo, the Atkins diet, the five two diet, the warrior diet, which I touched on in my first podcast. These were presented as solutions to lose weight. But the thing about these things is they are methods, but they don't cover the principle. And so often in the fitness industry, people would hide the principle because they feel like, oh, if people have their knowledge, then they won't buy my product. If people know that they have to create a calorie deficit, which is the principle, then they won't buy my method that I'm selling, which is the keto diet or my keto diet eight week plan that I'm trying to sell. Or if I don't tell them it's a calorie deficit, but I tell them that it's intermittent fasting and I'm selling these fasting teas that you have to drink to burn body fat while you're fasting, then that's going to help my business profit.
(09:53):
And that's one thing that I think is definitely improved. Now in the fitness industry, there's a lot of coaches such as myself and a huge amount of people in the evidence-based community of personal trainers saying the principle is what matters? Okay, how do we gain weight? Okay, a calorie surplus. But previously people just say, have my mass gainer. This has got to help you get buff or eat McDonald's after you train because it all goes to the muscles that you train after all this kind of bro signs stuff that doesn't make any sense. That is not a principle, that's method. So same thing with going, let's just say going a hundred percent plant-based. People say, this is how you lose weight, but that's not how you lose weight. But for most people going a hundred percent plant-based means cleaning up your diet 100%. You stop eating rubbish foods and you're focusing on being healthy and you're eating a plant-based diet.
(10:52):
It's not the fact that you've removed animal protein or animal-based foods out of your diet that's made you lose weight. It's the fact that you've cleaned up your diet and you're like, okay, I'm not eating any of these previous foods that I was eating before. Now I'm eating a very healthy plant-based diet, and you lose weight. And people are like, ah, it's because I'm plant-based. But that is just the method that you've used. It's not the principle that your results are founded within. So I want to be very clear with that. So whenever you see something like, try this thing to lose weight, try this thing to lose weight, I want you to understand that that is the method where you're going to be creating a calorie deficit. It's not because you're not because you are keto, it's not because you are clean eating paleo, it's because you're creating a calorie deficit and whatever that looks like is, sorry. So whatever method you're using that is going to be following the principle of a calorie deficit if you are dropping weight. So how do we lose weight? We create a calorie deficit. Can you build muscle and lose weight at the same time? The answer is yes, the answer is yes, but should you be pursuing that? That's a big question mark. So let me give some context around it.
(12:10):
You can build muscle and lose weight if you eat at maintenance, it's a slower process and it's called body recomposition. So this is really powerful for people such as a beginner because if you're a beginner, you have this superpower called new begins, and because your body isn't used to any stimuluses from training because you're a beginner, you're starting out, a shotgun approach will work. So if you just do anything, your muscle's going to be like, whoa, what is that? I'm going to respond. Bam. You get a stimulus where your body demands an adaptation, so your muscle repairs and it grows. So you're building muscle. And if you pair that as a beginner with being in a calorie deficit, you're going to drop body fat, but you're also going to build muscle because your muscle is like, whoa, what's that? What's the stimulus I'm going to build?
(13:02):
So if you are a beginner eating at maintenance and just training really hard, I know that sounds really broad, but that is going to be a great solution to you making awesome progress early on that's going to be solid. But as you get more advanced, as you become intermediate, as you become advanced, or as you train for longer than let's say a year or even six months, that's not going to work anymore because your body's getting used to the weights that you're lifting. So you have to get a bit more technical with your programming. You have to get a bit more intentional with your nutrition because as you become more advanced, your body is used to it. So building muscle becomes harder. So you need to go into pursuing one goal at a time. And that's what I really want to get to in this podcast is you can try and eat at maintenance and build muscle and lose weight at the same time, but that's only really going to work if you're a beginner.
(14:03):
If you are intermediate to advanced, you'll still get stronger. You may drop a little bit of body fat, you might build a little bit of muscle, but you're ultimately just sitting on the fence. And that's fine if you just want to be fit, stay healthy and just enjoy training and just absolutely love it, and that's cool. But if you are wanting to double down on your results and really get a huge return on your investment that you're putting in, then you want to focus on one goal at a time. But before I go into that, another situation where body recomposition could work, building muscle and losing weight at the same time, which I 1000% do not agree with for most people, is taking anabolic steroids. Now, there's a lot of people on Instagram, there's a lot of people on TikTok on Facebook that are not transparent with their use of anabolic steroids.
(14:58):
And I'm really proud to say that I'm a natural athlete. I've never taken anything and neither have my clients, and it is harder to build muscle. I've been training for 14 years. It's hard. It's really hard to build muscle. Now. I really have to focus and push hard and really try and get personal best a lot. I need to get really creative with my programming because I'm used to 14 years of training. My muscles have seen a lot, so I have to continue to get creative. I really have to double down on one goal. If I want to build muscle, I need to create that optimal environment with a calorie surplus and train really hard. If I want to drop body fat, that is still possible and actually still I guess as easy as other people, but it's really the building muscle thing that's hard.
(15:44):
So if I really want to do that, I need to get in a surplus. But if I was on anabolic steroids where my testosterone was tenfold and I could just recover like that and my strength would go up like that, then it would be easier. So I'm not saying that that's another solution, just take anabolic steroids. But that is definitely a way that people do it. And that's why online sometimes you can see transformations where it's like crazy or you see personal trainers with these crazy bodies. You see fitness models with these crazy bodies or even actors getting into crazy shape really quick and they're like, oh, I just did it through this workout. Most of the time there's so many big actors or fitness models that are not transparent, and I don't have a problem with them taking anabolic steroids. People can do what they want with their body, but I don't think it's fair if you're not being honest about your path to success and that you achieve because then there's going to be people like 14-year-old Brock where you're looking at these people saying, I want a physique like that.
(16:43):
And then you're looking at their interviews and you're going, oh yeah, I got their workout plan. I'm going to do that. It doesn't work like that unfortunately. And I think if there was more transparency with the use of anabolic steroids, then people would actually have a bit more respect for those people because they're being honest about how they got there. And I don't think it takes away from their success. I just think it opens up people's perspectives that really look up to them. Because even fitness models, I was looking up to fitness models when I was 14, 15, 16 because I wanted to look like them and I was trying to eat their diets and do their workout plans, and I was not getting the progress that they were getting. But if I knew that they had this unfair advantage, I wouldn't have set this unrealistic expectation on myself to actually try and look like them or emulate them.
(17:29):
So yeah, that's kind of another way to achieve it, but that's not something I'm recommending, but I'm just kind of touching on what is out there and just to kind of help you grow your knowledge around this area. So yeah, pursuing your muscle building goal or body fat dropping goal, getting leaner goal is going to be best if you are intermediate to advanced. And even if you are a beginner, I like to get you in the right mindset of when it starts to get more difficult pursuing one goal at a time. So if we look at muscle building, we want to create this environment called a calorie surplus where we're consuming more calories than we are burning. So then we have the surplus of energy. And in this surplus of energy, we can really have kickass workouts, we can recover really well. We can have this nutrient dense diet where we have so many calories where we have the opportunity to eat a lot of protein, a lot of carbs, a lot of fats, and have this kind of optimal performing machine, which is going to be our body. So that is a great place to get stronger, great place to build muscle, recover well, and really live your best life a calorie. So plus life is awesome, and that is where we want to create, sorry. And that is where the best opportunity to build muscle is in this calorie surplus. But on the other side of the spectrum, we have a calorie deficit, which is optimal for losing fat or losing body fat. And
(18:58):
As you can see, consuming more calories than you burn is completely the opposite to consuming less calories than you burn. So in a deficit of energy, we literally have less than our body needs so that we take fuel from our body fat. But if we're in a calorie surplus, we're taking fuel from potentially the carbohydrates or the nutrition and the calories that we have behind us, which is a better fuel source for building muscle. And we're not in a deficit of energy, so our energy levels are going to be high as well. So our training, like I said, it's going to be kick us because we have that kind of big fluxx of calories behind us. So there are two different nutrition goals, which is why we need to focus on one goal at a time. If you try and go for both at once, it's not going to work.
(19:43):
If you're in a calorie deficit, research has shown that you can build muscle, but it's just really hard. If you're a beginner, you could probably build muscle in a calorie deficit, but as you get more advanced, like I was talking about, then as you get more advanced as a lifter, it's going to get harder and harder and harder because you need that optimal environment as you've trained for a longer time and your body has seen more stimulus. And if we go the other way, trying to lose body fat and calorie surplus, that's just not happening. The law of thermodynamics just does not allow that. So pursuing one goal at a time is going to be the best way to see success. And the reason why I'm a big fan of people choosing is because a lot of people lose motivation if they're trying to build muscle and lose fat.
(20:30):
At the same time, if they don't have the knowledge of to pursue one goal at a time, they lose motivation because they don't see any results. They're trying to do two things, but they're receiving zero. So what it does, if you focus on one goal and actually achieve that goal, you're getting a hundred percent success rate as opposed to 0% where you're aiming for two things and getting zero. Now we're aiming for one thing, but actually getting it, we're actually getting it. So instead of losing motivation, instead of losing motivation and pursuing two goals, we're actually going to be making progress. So if we're trying to lose body fat and that's all we're focusing on, we're going to make progress. If we do it correctly, if we're trying to build muscle, we're going to do that correctly and we're actually going to achieve it. So that's why I'm big on just focusing on one thing at a time because you're actually going to achieve it.
(21:26):
There's that saying like, one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Just focus on one goal because that is how you're going to actually get motivation and get the ball rolling. And that is what a lot of people just want at the end of the day just to make progress. If someone asks, can you build muscle and lose weight? And you lie and go, yes, and then they try and do it and then it doesn't work, they're not going to be motivated. But if you say, well, you can't, and then they go, oh, well that sucks, then you go, but you can achieve one of them. And then when you're finished with one of them, you can do the other one that's empowering and then they'll go, oh, awesome. So if I go for this and achieve it, I can get some progress, build muscle, then that's great.
(22:04):
And then when I'm finished with building muscle, I can get into a calorie deficit and drop body fat. So I can kind of have both at the same time, just need to pursue them at different times, if that makes sense. And the last point that I wanted to touch on, sorry, was that one, I just read my notes and realised that I just read it out. So to summarise this podcast, can you build muscle and lose weight? Yes. Should you try to do both at once? Not really. If you're a beginner, you probably could get away with it, but if you want to get yourself in an awesome mindset for when you become intermediate to advance and need to really double down on one goal, that is not going to be a solution that's going to give you great results. So focus on one goal at a time.
(22:53):
Get into a calorie deficit and drop body fat. If you want to get leaner, get into a calorie surplus and build muscle if you want to build muscle and gain weight at the same time. But if you want to build muscle and lose fat at the same time and you're try and go for both at the same time, you're probably not going to be successful. You're probably going to lose motivation and you're probably going to get frustrated as hell. So focus on one goal, achieve that, and then move on to the next. I hope this podcast has really helped, guys. If you enjoy it, please leave a review. I've never asked for a review before. I'm only for episodes in, but apparently they really helped the podcast, so I'd appreciate it. If you have any topics that you want me to cover or any questions that you want me to answer, send me a DMM on Instagram, email me Brock@teambrockashby.com. I'm not sure if you can send comments or messages on any podcasting platforms, but if you can, I'm sure I'll get notified in some way. I appreciate it. I hope you've learned a lot out of this. Yeah, I created this podcast just because I wanted to give context to a lot of questions that I get asked on a daily, and I hope that this really helps you.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
Welcome to the third episode of the Better with Brock podcast. Today I have my second guest on the podcast and we have Brad Buki. What's up man? How are you doing?
Brad Bujaki (00:00:12):
Hi. I'm doing pretty well. I'm super pleased to be here. Thank you for having me.
Brock Ashby (00:00:19):
Thanks so much for jumping on man. As soon as, so Brad is a previous client of mine. We worked together and as soon as he kind of told me what he was doing at the time, I was instantly fascinated and I had this thought as soon as I have a podcast, I got to get this guy on. So he works. Brad works heavily in the sleep area, and I was just saying before we jumped on that sleep, in my opinion, is the supplement that everyone needs to be taking. It's the quick fix that no one's acknowledging or even the elephant in the room where I feel like we all know is such an important factor to life. We do it every day yet no one's trying to optimise it or make the most of it. So Brad, how did you get into, well first of all, what are you actually doing at the moment in terms of working in sleep and how did you fall into your job now?
Brad Bujaki (00:01:17):
So that's a great question. So currently what I'm doing is I'm a polysomnographic technologist. So essentially I'm a sleep tech where I work in a sleep clinic. And so people will be referred to my clinic by just their family doctors or their gps that they're finding sleep issues. So people who are maybe feeling very pathologically sleepy throughout the day or they're having trouble with insomnia or any other host of sleep issues that they might be having, they'll come to my clinic and essentially what I do is I set them up with some recording equipment to be able to monitor their sleep throughout the night and I'm able to assess that and we use that information to essentially create a treatment plan for that patient that will help to correct their sleep. And so I actually fell into the field of sleep in my opinion, pretty much on accident in that. So I have a degree in neuroscience, so I definitely knew I wanted to go into something where I was dealing with the brain and also with a mental health focus, it's very important to me. And so I knew that was the direction I wanted to go in. However, I really had nothing to grapple with even at the time, I didn't know that sleep was getting a sleep test was a thing that people could do. I was the same as a lot of my patients that realised
Brock Ashby (00:02:54):
I didn't even know, even to be honest, before we started talking, I didn't even know that was a thing that you could get that done. And I don't think most people, like you're saying, know actually that exists.
Brad Bujaki (00:03:06):
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's definitely becoming a thing that is more popular and more widely known, but it is still very much not talked about very widely. I feel like a lot of people have the sort of mentality of their sleep or, oh, if I didn't get a good night's sleep, I just need to sleep more next time or sleep in on the weekend or something like that without realising maybe there is a way to have that assessed to see if there is maybe something that's actually can be corrected or something that's preventing them from getting any good night's sleep like that. And so it wasn't until I was looking for opportunities in a mental health capacity that the hospital I work at is a mental health hospital. And so when I was looking for positions there, I was talking actually with the manager there and she was saying, oh yeah, of course we have some volunteer opportunities right now. You could work in the coffee shop or you could work in the library or there's also a sleep research lab that a doctor's setting up now. And I was saying, does anyone pick coffee shop? Obviously I want to do the sleep research.
Brock Ashby (00:04:14):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Brad Bujaki (00:04:15):
And then it was in that lab that I really fell in love with sleep and being able to actually monitor the brain and the different levels of activity that's happening throughout the night that it really just really just fell into it real hard.
Brock Ashby (00:04:32):
And I suppose it's something that you can dive into really deep if you want. There's the surface level of like you were saying, oh, I'm getting a bad sleep, I think I just need to sleep more or maybe I need to just allow more time. But obviously you've probably experienced a lot of people that actually have different or maybe more serious problems with their sleep, but why the interest in mental health? So I think that there's a big, they're intertwined together sleep and mental health, but what made you kind of focus in that area or what made you passionate about it?
Brad Bujaki (00:05:10):
That's a really good question too. So mental health I guess has always just been just a passion of mine since I was an adolescent. So as a queer child growing up in rural Ontario, Canada, mental health was something that was both an issue and also not addressed in any way
(00:05:34):
Growing up. And so when I was able to start realising that it was first of all a thing that people would have issues with and could be corrected, I just became very interested in that in finding how the brain works and ways when it's maybe not working as optimally or correctly as we'd want it to. Being able to actually correct that through noninvasive therapies, so things that aren't surgeries, things that are behavioural cognitive things where it's someone just sort of doing the work and putting in practise to be able to correct something and then having it work effectively. And that's something I just fell in love with. And then eventually when I ended up getting into sleep, that's when they sort of both collided.
Brock Ashby (00:06:26):
And I feel like mental health is such a hot topic now. I think in some way, one thing I don't enjoy is seeing online people kind of feeling like it's a contest, like oh, kind of almost comparing my mental health is worse than yours. But I think that initially the conversation was awesome and that people were, say in the fitness space, obviously that's where I hang out, it's always physical health and then people leaving their mental health behind. And then I feel like because people were talking about it, they were getting such a response and then it kind of turned into this thing like, oh, mental health. And then people were kind of milking it, just talking about it just because it's a hot topic or just trying to compare or share worse stories and then that's going to get more engagement because it's worse.
(00:07:14):
But I think it's such to take the hype out of it, it's just such an important pillar to talk about, especially in fitness because we pursue physical health sometimes at the expense of mental health. We don't know that there's extremely restrictive diet that we're on is actually damaging our relationship with food or the way that we are continually pursuing this better body, better body, better body, and ultimately we are becoming more insecure about who we are and finding value in just how we look and not what our body can do or what we can actually achieve in life. Absolutely. I completely agree with your, or I guess am aligned with your passion for mental health as well. I think that's where it's cool that there is more awareness in mental health so people don't leave it behind because unfortunately I think in Australia the number one killer for men between the age of, I could be buting this, but somewhere between 25 to 40 is male suicide. And I feel like is that
Brad Bujaki (00:08:14):
So goodness gracious?
Brock Ashby (00:08:16):
Yeah, I think that having these conversations around mental health and not cheesy ones or comparing who has the worst life or not, but just kind of giving people tools like you're saying that they can actually put in practise is super important. And I think sleep is one of the pillars that it can stand on. Obviously a good night's sleep isn't probably going to solve all your mental health problems or the things that you're going through in your head, but I think it can definitely help build a solid foundation for you to live life on. And I want to jump into these tips that I emailed you when we were first working together. Just out of curiosity, I asked five tips for getting better sleep and then later on I wanted to talk about five tips to actually getting to sleep because I think they're two different things, like having a great sleep is one, but if you can't get to sleep, there's kind of no point in focusing on that.
Brad Bujaki (00:09:11):
Exactly,
Brock Ashby (00:09:12):
Yeah. So you said these five things and I kind of want talk to them one by one, but number one, the number one tip you said, and maybe you didn't put these in order of priority, but I just want to kind of go through them. Number one was prioritise sleep. So can you just expand on that? It sounds pretty common sense driven, but how do we prioritise sleep?
Brad Bujaki (00:09:37):
Yeah, so also the order I sent them into you as well isn't so much important in terms of priority as well because all very important and I wouldn't guess necessarily rank them because they're all very good tips to know and just things to have in your arsenal for just general knowledge about sleep education. So yeah, first of all, prioritising sleep I find tends to be one of the things that falls by the wayside in a lot of cases, especially that I'm seeing where people will tend to have an attitude or thought process about sleep, where sleep is seen as more of a waste of time or the rest that you can get after all the things that you have to get done in a day is done, then you can have some rest of sleep, which is a pretty common misconception for sure. Actually is that,
Brock Ashby (00:10:34):
Yeah, I have to jump in here. I was like that. I was laughing with my fiance's family the other day. We found an interview that I was in back in 2014 and I was very hustle sleep when you're dead. And I remember saying in that interview I actually said, sleep is overrated. And then I said, A wise man once said, sleep when you're dead. And then I was like, man, what an idiot. I was just young and ambitious trying to take over the world. But looking back at that, it's just crazy. I definitely fell into that trap and I'm sure you've heard it a lot
Brad Bujaki (00:11:16):
And in another eight years, who knows? Looking back on this episode of the podcast, if we're going to think the same thing, oh, how foolish we were. But
Brock Ashby (00:11:25):
Yeah, how foolish, seven to nine hours, what a joke.
Brad Bujaki (00:11:27):
Yeah, exactly. But for now, that is what you should do for sure. Yeah, until proven otherwise, this is the good stuff. So for sleep, it is a really very active process for the brain for sure. And so the way I think about it, it would sort of be the same to me is if you are thinking about, oh, I went to the gym and I exercised and that was a waste of time, or oh, eating food, that's just a waste of time. These are things that your body physiologically needs to be doing. And so thinking of it as just putting it on the back burner or something that is something that you can just skip over or not prioritise is a place where a lot of people do sort of get stuck on where, sorry, you're frozen and I want to make sure you're still there.
Brock Ashby (00:12:25):
Oh, I'm still here. Yep, I'm still here.
Brad Bujaki (00:12:27):
Okay, perfect. Sorry. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:12:29):
That's alright.
Brad Bujaki (00:12:31):
So being able to think of your sleep in that way really can do a lot to change just down the stream attitudes towards your sleep and then the behaviours around your sleep is just starting to think of it as the same as eating or going to the gym is like this is the thing that you need to do to be healthy. Obviously you absolutely can stay up very late, get not very good sleep, you can do that. It's just if you also expect to have good sleep, you can't.
Brock Ashby (00:13:04):
Yeah. It's
Brad Bujaki (00:13:05):
Like you can
Brock Ashby (00:13:06):
No, no, sorry. You go.
Brad Bujaki (00:13:08):
Oh, sorry. I was just going to say it's the same as you can eat junk food all the time, but is that going to be good for your body? No. And so trying to think of like, oh, here's the one weird trick you can do where you can just do whatever nonsense you want to your body in regards to your sleep, but if you do this, then it's all fine. It's not going to exist. It doesn't exist anywhere.
Brock Ashby (00:13:31):
And I think that prioritising sleep can often fall by the wayside because we often live busy lives and we try and squeeze too much in and think, yeah, that it's a waste of time that nothing's happening. Oh, I'm just losing four hours or six hours or eight hours. But I think also it's not very obvious. Sometimes you will sleep. I've had it where I sleep four hours and I wake up and I feel amazing. And so you think, oh, maybe I don't need that seven to nine hours, or you get away with it a couple times. But it definitely does catch up. I've had times where especially when I was personal training, you're trying to squeeze as many clients as you can during the day. And the busiest times with personal training is before work and after work. So your sleep gets heavily affected because say in the corporate gym, which is where I was, I was based in the CBD, they would come to the gym, you're very busy from let's say 6:00 PM till about 8, 8 30.
(00:14:32):
So you are up at 4 45 getting into the gym before six, and then you're doing the morning block, which is busy. And then during the day it's a bit like lunchtime's busy because a lunch gap. So you have these lull times which are somewhere between nine to 1130 and then somewhere two to four 30, but you can't go to sleep then. And then you're busy again from about seven till nine and then you are home at 10 and then there's nowhere to sleep. So I definitely fell into that of not prioritising it and letting other things in life prioritise that or kind of come into a higher priority than sleep would. And I remember just feeling drained sometimes and clients would sometimes say to me, man, you look tired Brock. And I'd be denying things and I'd try and hype myself up. I was so caffeinated, it wasn't funny. I would wake up straight for the caffeine, drinking a litre of coffee. I remember putting a plunger of coffee, just it was a lot. And I would just scale that at like 4 45 and then just get into the gym and it's like, geez
Brad Bujaki (00:15:32):
Louise,
Brock Ashby (00:15:33):
This can't be good, man, this can't be good. So number two was make your sleeping environment, sorry, more conducive to sleep. Can you talk about that?
Brad Bujaki (00:15:46):
Yeah, so for sure when you're going to be to sleep and actually really just every aspect of your day when you're going to be eating throughout the day, when you're going to be exercising throughout the day, the human brain is remarkably obsessed I would say, with trying to make patterns and trying to predict what you're going to be doing. And so in your brain you have essentially a little clock that's going throughout the day that's called your circadian rhythm, and that's how your brain essentially monitors and oh boy, the word's not going to come to me. Maybe uhoh
Brock Ashby (00:16:27):
Regulates.
Brad Bujaki (00:16:27):
Maybe regulates. That's exactly what, thank you, yes. How your brain regulates your physiological processes when it's preparing to digest food. It knows that it's the time of the day where you're going to be eating, when you're going to be sleeping is exactly the same. And so to have your sleeping environment more conducive to sleep, essentially what I mean by this is that when you are going to sleep and your brain is in that mode of being ready to go to sleep, if you're bombarding it, then with all these other stimuli for being awake, essentially you're trying to fight against that pressure sleep at that point. If you have screens, if you're watching television before bed or using your phone is a huge one as well. Now having that light in your eyes, it's sort of two forces that end up working against each other because your brain is in this space where it's ready to start going to sleep, but then also you're hitting it with blue light. And blue light is just the quality of light that screens do produce, and it's very similar to the wavelengths of light that the sun produces. And so over billions of years, that's probably wrong. Millions of, sorry.
(00:17:52):
We've evolved to have our brains react to this specific wavelength of light. So there's a nucleus just actually in the brain behind the eyeballs. It's called the super prismatic nucleus. And so this will detect that specific waveform of light, and that's what tells our brain essentially that it's time to be awake and starting to be active. And so if you're getting all that blue light in your eyes right before bed, like I said, it's working against what your body's natural clock is trying to do. So making your environment more conducive to sleeping, meaning before bed about an hour before bed, if you're dimming all the lights in your house or just turning off half the lights you would normally have on getting that lower light condition so your body's settling down and relaxing more instead of looking at a screen. Reading books, I mean it's old fashioned, but it's pretty good. It works,
Brock Ashby (00:18:44):
It
Brad Bujaki (00:18:44):
Works. It super duper works for sure. Also having, if you're someone who's unfortunate like me who works at night and maybe sleeps during the day, making sure that there's as much darkness as possible, getting really good quality blackout curtains to make sure that there's as little light as possible if there's noise, if you live maybe in a busy city or if you live in a place where there is a lot of noise going along and that's interrupting your sleep, maybe white noise or something to block your ears to keep all that ambient noise out so that you're able to settle down before bed and also even throughout the night, or actually maybe I'll save that for getting to sleep when we get to that part.
Brock Ashby (00:19:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Bujaki (00:19:36):
Okay. Before we start blabbering on,
Brock Ashby (00:19:38):
Yeah, going into detail. But it's awesome, man. It's really valuable. I can definitely stand by those things. Previously in this apartment, we don't go through this, but my fiance and I used to live on a busy street, like you said, and we could actually hear the pedestrian crossing going all night.
Brad Bujaki (00:19:57):
Oh, the beeps.
Brock Ashby (00:20:03):
It was like, oh man. Sometimes when we'd wake up during the day and we didn't have very great curtains as well, so it was a little bit bright. And then we're listening to the pedestrian man. That definitely impacted our sleep. So we're grateful to be where we are. Moving on to number three, no smoking or drinking. And actually I'll say on this, just on the back of it, for some people maybe that isn't going to be realistic just to completely stop drinking or smoking. And how can people, I guess in some way have the well smoking? I'm not too sure. I just think if you're smoking, you should just stop smoking. But anyway, so let's
Brad Bujaki (00:20:44):
Just try your best. That's all anyone can. And if it doesn't work this time, maybe next time every time you'll get a little bit closer.
Brock Ashby (00:20:53):
Yeah, yeah. I like the attitude. So how can people, I guess manage the, let's kind of focus on drinking. How can they manage that? For some people, it's a part of their social life, it's a part of their career as well, going out for dinner with clients and doing all that stuff. So how can people manage that? But also talking about the importance of no smoking or drinking for bitter sleep,
Brad Bujaki (00:21:17):
Talking about going out for drinks with clients, that is something that I hadn't thought about before. You're right. That does definitely complicate the interaction of drinking and sleep for some people. Absolutely. So I guess in cases like that, and even just in general for sure, drinking as a social activity as well, that's obviously going to be happening most often in the evening after people have finished work. Usually I would hope not before work,
Brock Ashby (00:21:56):
But you never know.
Brad Bujaki (00:21:57):
You never know, I guess. But so really I wish, I guess I had something maybe more sensational about it, but it really is sort of just the basics of in moderation. So only obviously getting blackout drunk, that's not going to be good for anything really for a lot reasons. So having only a couple and also really focusing on knowing when you are planning on going to bed and not stopping at a time where you'll have enough time to metabolise some of that before you have a chance to go to sleep. And it certainly is a thing that some people will sometimes do is having a drink before bed as sort of a quasi sleep aid because alcohol for sure, it is a depressant, it is a drug. And so taking it, it's a sleeping medication is something that some people I find will do. And it does help you fall asleep because that's exactly what it does.
(00:23:06):
It helps you fall asleep. But in terms of the sleep that you're getting once you are there is drastically worse I would say, because the action of alcohol that has on the brain, essentially when you are going through your sleep is all the different sleep stages that your brain naturally goes through throughout your night. The rhythm that it has becomes very disrupted. So there's a stage of sleep called REM sleep or rapid eye movement sleep, which is very crucial for people to get throughout the night. It's one of the stages where people are going to be doing most of their dreaming in as well for, and what alcohol does is it suppresses that a lot. And so if you are going to bed and you still have a lot of alcohol in your system, you're not going to have very much REM sleep while that's having an effect on you.
(00:23:58):
And so you might not be getting any of those nice cognitively restorative aspects to your sleep that you would get from having a good amount of REM sleep. And then also after the alcohol is wearing off, even if it's happening throughout the night, then you're going to have sort of a rebound effect where you're going to be having a lot of rem, maybe too much REM all in one time and also at the wrong times throughout the night where it's throwing off all your other crucial sleep phases as well. And so if you're giving yourself enough time, like switching to water at a certain point, or I guess if you're with clients, alright, I'm going to disclose how truly out of my depth I would be in a situation like that, would ordering apple juice and then tricking the client work or is that not feasible? I don't know.
Brock Ashby (00:24:49):
Well, they could be so drunk they wouldn't even notice. You could probably just have water and tell them.
(00:24:57):
Yeah. But I think, yeah, that was just an example after I coach a lot of business people and even when I was face-to-face personal training in the CBD, it was very common. So it's quite obviously don't smoke, don't drink, that is going to lead to good sleep of course. But I guess I wanted to make it in a realistic application, how can people actually, because the reality of people just completely giving up drinking and go like, yeah, I just want to have good sleep, is probably not that realistic. But definitely it's helpful to know and understand that I guess alcohol can help you get to sleep, but the quality of sleep that you're going to get is not going to be as good as it would be if you weren't. And you touching on that thing, how rapid eye movement sleep is going to be a bit more, I guess sporadic or unexpected in the way that it's coming is how you're talking about your body likes to set up systems so it knows what's coming and then having that randomness is obviously going to alter your sleep.
(00:26:00):
I remember when I was younger, I don't drink at the moment, but when I did previously I actually, and I didn't get plastered or completely drunk, but when I had some, I remember just waking up at, I think it was two or 4:00 AM and I just couldn't sleep again. So I just kind of woke up and we slept really late too, well say one o'clock. So I think I just got a couple hours of sleep and then I was up and maybe it was that REM, I'm not sure, but I definitely couldn't fall back to sleep. It was, I don't know, I didn't drink that much. It had this weird effect on me that was quite potent.
Brad Bujaki (00:26:33):
And obviously for some people it's going to be more drastic than others. Everyone's a little bit different for sure. It certainly could have been just that delay that it was having on your sleep phases totally threw your rhythms out of whack and then you woke up and your body was confused as to even maybe what time it was. But also even going back to obviously I'm not going to explicitly say to everyone, no one should drink ever. Obviously having a drink in social situations or however, usually that's perfectly fine. It's just knowing how to do it smart, doing it a certain amount of time before bed, like an hour and a half maybe before you're going to bed so you have enough time to be able to start metabolising that, having some water to help flush some of your system to keep it from having such a big impact on your sleep. And then you should be perfectly fine, really
Brock Ashby (00:27:31):
Nice. And number four is napping. Smart?
Brad Bujaki (00:27:37):
Yes, napping. Oh boy. So I'm personally not a napper, which telling that to some of my patients, sometimes they get surprised. I guess even just because I do live in the nighttime essentially, where I'm awake at night and asleep during the day, they're confounded sometimes to hear that I don't usually nap even on my days off. I also never drink caffeine just because the quality of sleep that I make sure that I am able to get when I am sleeping is then perfectly sufficient to propel me throughout the day until it's time for me to go to sleep again the next day. However, that's not the case necessarily for every person.
(00:28:24):
What the research has been showing us is that we tend to be about split 50 50 between people who are nappers and people who are non nappers. And so for the people who are non nappers, I guess there's a 15 seconds skip ahead button or something, I dunno where you can go to the next tip. But for everybody else, there are definitely some ways where you can learn to nap in a certain way where it's not going to be interrupting or degrading, pardon me, degradating your sleep that you're getting at night. And so a lot of trouble that some people will have if they're finding they're very sleepy in the afternoon or when they get home from work and then they'll have a nap, is then that they're having a lot more trouble falling asleep at night. And so in addition to this circadian rhythm that I was talking about being a factor for your brain, knowing when it's time for sleep, there's also a second pressure that builds up throughout the day that we just refer to really as sleep pressure.
(00:29:28):
And so the longer amount of time that you're staying awake, this pressure is building up in the form of a neurotransmitter in the brain that when it reaches a certain level, that's when it's signalling to the brain that it's time to start getting drowsy. And the issue that I find with naps is that that sleep pressure can go away very remarkably quickly during a nap. So one of the first cases that is talked about in psychology classes in university and things which relates to sleep that I like to talk about a lot is there was a high school student couldn't tell you the name or where it was or when it was, oh boy, this might be a bad story, but
Brock Ashby (00:30:08):
Go ahead. I'm buying
Brad Bujaki (00:30:11):
The point of it is first science fair project for his high school, he was going to see what the effects of sleep, pardon me, deprivation were on the body. And so he was just going to try and stay up for as long as he could. And I think he ended up making it to about 11 days where he hadn't fallen asleep. And it sounds insane. And so from that sort of landmark case, we ended up learning in the scientific field just a whole lot about what sleep does when we're seeing what happens when someone's deprived or so short-term memory, completely gone, starting to have hallucinations and things like that, and really just obviously having trouble staying awake. But the thing that I always took the most out of that story is when he was finished with this project and he did end up falling asleep, he ended up sleeping for about 14 hours and then he was just back to regular.
(00:31:03):
So a lot of the time people will think of if they're getting less sleep throughout the week, then they'll think, oh, I'll just sleep more on the weekend and then I'll be able to catch up. And the way that the sleep pressure actually works is that you don't really need any excess sleep. You can stay up apparently for 11 days and then you have essentially a normal amount of sleep and your body's back to the way that it's supposed to be. So this idea of catching up sleep is also something that's necessarily or not necessarily founded in any real sort of science. And so for the case of, I got so off track, I'm sorry, we were talking about naps.
Brock Ashby (00:31:42):
No, no, no, no, no. Keep going, keep going. I love this story because people will be learning stuff on this because that's such a common thing, sleepless during the week working nine to five, I'll only sleep six hours and then in the weekend I'll just sleep 12 and then I'll be all good. So keep going. I love it.
Brad Bujaki (00:31:56):
Exactly. And then also if people are sleeping in, then on the weekend it's going back again to that there's circadian rhythm. Now your body's thinking that you're trying to adjust to being in a different time zone now. So yeah, you might feel more rested that day, but then the next sleep you have is going to be suffering because of it. So keeping that consistent schedule as well. But going back to nap, sorry about that. I knew I was going to start blabbering.
Brock Ashby (00:32:20):
That's the
Brad Bujaki (00:32:21):
Kind of person, I'm sorry. So
Brock Ashby (00:32:22):
Valuable. I'm absolutely loving this.
Brad Bujaki (00:32:27):
So for napping, in order to be able to nap in a way that you're not losing too much of that sleep pressure to just get a little bit of a boost throughout the day, first of all, I always never fall asleep or start napping after two in the afternoon. And so absolutely, I understand that for cases of people who they're working throughout the whole day, they don't have an opportunity to nap before they get home. There's not really an elegant solution in that regard other than either finding a way to be able to stay up until it is your bedtime so that you can keep that schedule and have enough sleep pressure to be able to both fall and stay asleep throughout the whole night. Or if it is something that you're finding you are having a lot of trouble with staying awake throughout the day, it might even be something that something is happening with your sleep that should be corrected if you have some sort of thing that's interrupting your sleep throughout the night, causing you to have poor quality sleep, some sort of sleep illness like sleep apnea or narcolepsy or something like that.
(00:33:33):
So in cases like that for sure, talk to your doctor about it, find a way that you can have your sleep assessed if that's a thing that you can have done in your city depending on where it's available. But for people who can sleep before two, that tends to be the sort of cutoff time throughout the day where you can start building that sleep pressure back up in enough time to have enough to be able to propel you into sleep when it does get dark and it's time for you to be going to sleep. And also my recommendation for naps is depending on what you want to get out of your nap, spending a different amount of time asleep. So if you're just looking for a little energy boost, I really wouldn't recommend longer than 20 to 30 minutes because that's enough time for you to go through the first couple stages of sleep.
(00:34:26):
So you'll start getting some of those energy benefits, but it won't be necessarily long enough for you to start going into a deeper stage of sleep where your brainwaves are getting very slow. And that's sort of more when your body's going to be repairing itself. And that tends to be the stage of sleep after around 30 minutes is a very difficult sleep two wake up out of. So if you are planning on waking up between a half hour and maybe 60 to 70 minutes of a nap, people tend to feel a lot more groggy or even more tired after their nap because they're waking up at this very deep stage of sleep and you really don't feel any of those benefits until it's maybe even a half hour after your nap and then you'll actually be waking up properly. So I think,
Brock Ashby (00:35:18):
So would you try and push further, so 30 minutes or less, or if you're going to go 70, would you need to push further to get that? I guess out of that groggy feeling, if you tried to nap for say two hours, would that help? Or would that be even worse, almost a mini sleep?
Brad Bujaki (00:35:37):
No, that's a great question. Absolutely. So if you are going to be looking to get that little period of deep sleep in a nap, for sure, I would say 120 minutes or about an hour and a half is sort of the sweet spot after that because that'll give you enough time to go all the way through your deep stage of sleep and then go into REM sleep that we talked about earlier, which tends to be actually a very active stage of sleep for the brain. So when I'm monitoring it in the lab, it looks very, very similar to even when you're in a very light sleep or even awake a little bit, which is how active the brain is. And that's because that's sort of when your brain's going to be doing all of its emotional processing, regulating memories and stuff like that. And also, like I said earlier, a lot of dreaming is going to be happening s in REM sleep, so it does tend to be an easier stage to wake up out of because your brain's already very active.
Brock Ashby (00:36:27):
Yeah, okay. Yeah, because actually I'm interested in that because, so I track my sleep through Fitbit, which probably isn't obviously as accurate as what you do for work. I'm not hooked up to a machine, but I wake up most days and I look at it and there's an hour of my sleep that shows that I'm awake, but I'm asleep, I'm completely asleep. So I look at my watch and it'll say six hours, 30 minutes, and I'll be like, man, I'm sure I went to sleep earlier. And then I'll look into the stats and it'll have an hour, an hour and a half awake. So I'd have to just put that back into my sleep and go, okay, I actually sleep seven and a half hours or eight hours because I'm not sure how it reads it, but maybe because a very physically active sleeper as well. I move quite a lot. Sometimes I wake up. That
Brad Bujaki (00:37:19):
Was going to be my next question. Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:37:21):
Yeah, the eye folds on the floor or it's around my neck, my pillows on the floor sometimes I'm on a diagonal. I've got my fiance's pillow somehow. So yeah, I'm very active. So is that the best time to wake up in any sleep as well or just for naps
Brad Bujaki (00:37:43):
For any sleep? So the way that the sleep cycles tend to go through, so what I've talked about earlier about starting in the lighter sleep, going into a deeper sleep, and then having some REM that happens over and over throughout the night, typically in chunks of about an hour and a half to two hours depending on the person. So at the end of one of those sleep cycles does tend to be the optimal stage of sleep to be waking up out of because your body's already sort of in that state of, well, we finished this cycle, do we wake up or do we go into the next one? It's very easy for the body to just choose one or the other depending on the rhythm that your sleep is in or how much sleep price you have as well. In regards to your sleep and the hour that it says you spend awake, I'm pretty sure that Fitbits tend to monitor sleep based on movement and heart rate and possibly pulse or respiration.
Brock Ashby (00:38:43):
The pulse is measured,
Brad Bujaki (00:38:44):
The pulse is measured as well. So if you are having a very active sleep, if you're moving the kind of person who tosses and turns a lot throughout the night, then I can definitely imagine that misinterpreting that as being awake. Alternatively, there are definitely potentially times where people might even be waking up throughout the night and not realising it.
Brock Ashby (00:39:08):
That was one of my questions that I was kind of wondering two Fitbit or to the world or to you, am I just not sleeping that well because I feel rested when I wake up. I feel like I haven't slept six and a half. If I sleep eight hours and it says I'm awake for an hour and a half, I don't feel like I've slept six and a half. I do feel asleep, but then I don't trust myself as well. I could just think I'm dreaming, but I'm actually in real life. Sure. So you can just be awake but kind of not realise it.
Brad Bujaki (00:39:38):
Yeah, it happens a lot more frequently than you might think as well. One of the things that I think really struck me the most when I started working in the sleep field is realising how just really God awful, we are assessing our own sleeps.
(00:39:56):
So a lot of the times I'll even have patients come in with very severe insomnia where they'll say that they spend hours and hours trying to fall asleep. And even in the lab, I'll come in in the morning to start unhooking them from the wires and they'll be very distraught. They'll say, oh, I didn't sleep at all. Do I have to come in and have another test done so you can get information? And I'll have to be like, well, actually you did. You slept quite a bit throughout the night and then maybe you just are having trouble realising it. And so that's maybe rather than a trouble with the actual sleep itself. It's a problem with the perception of sleep or the relationship the person has with sleep. And sometimes they'll be like, no, I didn't. I know better. I'm like, all right, whatever. Go home. I'm not here to argue with you.
Brock Ashby (00:40:40):
Well, it's the same in fitness. Sorry to jump in there. It's the same. No, absolutely. It's the same in fitness. So research is very clear that we think we're more active than we are, and we think we eat less than we do. So I think we think we're about 50, it's around 50%, 50% more active than we are. So people report like, oh yeah, I do this and I do that or with their diet. No, I definitely don't eat that much. It was somewhere around 47% less or something like that where we think, yeah, and I think it just shows that we are really poor at analysing ourselves. We always give ourselves the benefit of the doubt.
Brad Bujaki (00:41:22):
Absolutely. That's something that I personally found when I started training with you and started keeping track of steps, especially trying to get that 10,000 steps in a day and then, oh, going from the couch to the kitchen is not as far as I thought it was. It's
Brock Ashby (00:41:36):
Not a thousand steps.
Brad Bujaki (00:41:39):
How is that possible? I'm sure.
Brock Ashby (00:41:42):
Yeah.
Brad Bujaki (00:41:43):
And so in terms of sleep perception as well throughout the night, there are definitely some times where I'll be treating someone specifically with sleep apnea or some condition where someone's having trouble with their breathing throughout the night where sometimes it'll be happening where someone will have a pause in their breathing throughout their sleep, and then the brain obviously starts recognising that it's not getting as much oxygen as it needs. And so what it does is it'll pull them out into a lighter, less restorative stage of sleep, or sometimes even just waking someone up entirely so that they can start breathing normally again. But if someone's very tired or if they were in a stage of sleep where they're trying to get back to sleep, they have a lot of called sleep inertia, then they might just fall back asleep very quickly, too fast for the brain even to form a memory about it. So I have had patients a lot of the time that will feel like they're sleeping right through the night when in fact they are waking up several times potentially because they're having this sort of respiratory issue. And so if that's something that your listeners are finding is maybe coming up, it might be certainly worth it to just have an objective assessment to see if something might be happening there.
Brock Ashby (00:42:52):
So if you are feeling asleep but you're not asleep, does your body still reap the benefits of being asleep? Because I guess I'm genuinely concerned about that, but maybe other people are running like, well, I've been awake but I feel asleep. Does it count or does it not count?
Brad Bujaki (00:43:10):
That's a very common question for sure. And so what the research has been indicating to us is that not quite some people I know, isn't it frustrating? It is a very common thing as well to think, oh, if I'm lying in bed with my eyes closed and I'm relaxed, it's the same essentially. But the way that the brain or the process is that the brain goes throughout sleep and also even through the distinct stages of sleep, the brain is doing very different things from one stage of sleep to another as well. If you are awake, but you're even still relaxing, that is sort of giving your body a chance to not do anything for sure. But all the things that the brain works that during sleep are still not happening. So even for getting nice deep sleep, we call it stage three sleep, that's the deepest stage of sleep that you'll be in. That's the one I was saying happens about an hour into sleep or 40 minutes, what did I say earlier? I want to make sure consistent
Brock Ashby (00:44:16):
Between it, it was like after the 30 minutes. 30 minutes, yeah, yeah. Up to like 60, 70 you were saying?
Brad Bujaki (00:44:23):
Exactly. Yes. Perfect. Thank you. So that stage of sleep is, especially in the framework of training and exercising and if you're trying to lose weight, if you're trying to build muscle stage three, sleep is extremely important for specifically being able to get that because that's when your body is first of all going to be very relaxed asleep, but also what your brain is doing in slow wave sleep or deep sleep stage three sleep is that it's also, that's when your body is going to be secreting its growth hormone to repair muscles to improve cardiac and respiratory health. That's when your body's insulin levels are going to be regulating as well. So even sometimes when people do have sleep apnea and they're finding they're having trouble losing weight, it's sort of a twofold approach where they're not getting good sleep and so they're maybe not getting this nice deep restorative sleep so they're not feeling very energetic, they don't feel like they can do much throughout the day, but then also throughout the night their insulin isn't really doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's making it harder to burn off sugars and things like that throughout the day as
Brock Ashby (00:45:38):
Well. And easier to store body fat. Yeah,
Brad Bujaki (00:45:41):
Exactly. Very easy
Brock Ashby (00:45:44):
Knowing.
Brad Bujaki (00:45:44):
Easy.
Brock Ashby (00:45:46):
Yeah. And I guess I kind of want to touch on training and sleep in that later on, but number five here, just to kind of bring it back was sleep aid advice and well, specifically you kind of touched on melatonin use, so I'd love to talk about that because a lot of people, especially travelling and stuff, because melatonin's often recommended for jet lag, but if I'm correct, I think it might be alright for short-term use, but long-term continually using melatonin is not that great. Is
Brad Bujaki (00:46:23):
That true? Exactly, yes. So exactly what you're saying as well about jet lag, that's the way I always like to frame it as well for sure. Where melatonin or these other sort of similar over the counter sleep aids that whatever might be available in your country wherever you're listening to this, these are really things that are intended for very short time use if you are adjusting to a new time zone to try and sort of entrain your sleep onto a new schedule. So these are times when you have your regular sleep wake rhythm that your body really wants to set into, but then something's happened where the daylight is now not happening at the same time. As always, that'll help to just pull your sleep in a certain direction to reacclimate your body to its surroundings. And because really what your body wants to do when it's making these rhythms is it's going off of your surroundings when it's light out, when it's dark out, that kind of stuff.
(00:47:24):
And so melatonin is a great option for helping with until your sleep is where you want it to be and then letting your natural processes go with how they should. Or in cases where maybe people are having more trouble with, if they're tending to stay up very late at night and sleeping in the morning, trying to pull that back to a schedule that works better with someone's work, for instance, if they have to work early, moving that back in that direction. I guess the problem with prolonged use of this is that if you're taking this on a regular basis to try and just help with your baseline normal sleep is that your body begins to become sort of desensitised to it in a way. So you'll be taking it every day and your body will start to expect it. And so in addition to you'll start having to increase your dosage gradually to try and keep up with your body getting used to it.
(00:48:27):
Your body's also going to be less likely to start producing its own endogenous that it naturally does in dimm light conditions anyway because it's like something else has it taken care of, I don't need to do this. And so I would say if someone is finding that they're taking melatonin on a regular basis, if it's for longer than a month and you're still finding that it's not helping with putting your sleep in the schedule it wants to be, if your body is still shifting to a different time to be able to sleep, then for sure it might be time to talk to your doctor about it and see if there's any different options, like maybe a prescription medication that would suit better whatever sleep issue you're having or being able to assess. Again, seeing if maybe there's something that could be corrected even without medication a lot of the times.
Brock Ashby (00:49:20):
Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome because I've heard that same thing and it's interesting to hear it from you, obviously working very closely with sleep. There's a lot of myths out there. I just heard melatonin helps you get to sleep, but just don't continue use it because you stop producing it, and that's exactly what you're saying. So I guess by chance I'm right, but I suppose there's a lot of, I guess pro-science that you have in sleep we have in fitness. It's really hard to navigate through, and I suppose that's why I wanted to get you on, but that's also why I'm so upfront in the fitness industry. No, that's wrong, that's bullshit, or that's definitely not true. There's no research to back that up. It's really cool to have
Brad Bujaki (00:50:00):
Least dear God stuck doing that.
Brock Ashby (00:50:04):
Or just save your money, save your time. You don't need to go to the gym every day. You don't need to buy that tub of this and that. You don't need, man, even for sleep, there's products out there at the moment, and I won't name them because I probably could get sued, but they're like,
Brad Bujaki (00:50:20):
And I don't know what kind of sponsors you're going to have for this podcast.
Brock Ashby (00:50:24):
There's none at the moment. There's none.
Brad Bujaki (00:50:25):
Hello Casper mattress.
Brock Ashby (00:50:28):
So I have the freedom to say it, but there's products out there that are fat burning and they're saying, you can burn fat while you sleep. If you take this, it's going to help you get to sleep and it's going to help you burn fat. And I'm like, I'm sure that cannot be right.
Brad Bujaki (00:50:44):
It can't. Impossible.
Brock Ashby (00:50:46):
Yeah, and trust me, I was taking it before, I've done everything and everything, but it's really awesome to have your kind of
Brad Bujaki (00:50:56):
So tantalising though as well. You just want it so desperately to be true that you'll believe it for a little bit
Brock Ashby (00:51:02):
And it kind of makes sense as well. All the marketing, you're like, yeah, if I can burn fat during my sleep, then maybe I don't have to join the day. There's all this kind of stuff moving forward quickly, maybe we can go through a bit quickly. I don't want to take up about three hours of your day. Oh
Brad Bujaki (00:51:17):
Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
Brock Ashby (00:51:20):
The tips to getting to sleep. So maybe instead of just going through them one by one, I can just kind of say what they all are and then you can talk about them if that's better. Or we
Brad Bujaki (00:51:30):
Can go, yeah, we could do rapid fire style if you want.
Brock Ashby (00:51:33):
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So the five tips that you said, getting to sleep, pre-bed routine, so having a pre-bed routine, and then you can kind of explain what that looks like, keeping your schedule consistent, which we've kind of touched on. No phones on the bedroom, we've kind of talked about that too. No caffeine in the afternoon and prioritising relaxation. So do you want to just, I guess just be a bit more rapid with the answers because, or I think we could talk all day about this.
Brad Bujaki (00:52:05):
Yeah, no, I'll just touch on each one a little bit and explain, make it a little bit more easy to grapple with, I guess.
Brock Ashby (00:52:11):
Great. But it's been awesome, man. It's such good information.
Brad Bujaki (00:52:15):
Well, I'm glad. Yeah, I'm just happy to help, frankly. So in regards to pre-bed routine, in addition to, I guess I sort of talked about it a little bit earlier, in addition to your brain having this rhythm that it likes to go to, it also likes to anticipate things. So even more so even than just going to bed at the same time every day. If you do the same things before bed each day, like an hour before bed, if that's when you're dimming your lights, if you then maybe brush your teeth, you start reading maybe at that time. If you're doing these things the same time every single day, then your brain, it's not only in that rhythm, but it's also getting these additional cues of like, okay, these are the things that we always do when we're getting ready for sleep. So then when you do turn off the light, your brain's already exactly in that mood of this is what we're doing now and I'm already ready. Ready. I've seen this before. Exactly. I know what's going on here. So having just a routine that you can stick to each day before bed, just a half hour before bed, something that you're just doing consistently to get your brain in that head space.
Brock Ashby (00:53:18):
So what have you found that works for you? Sorry to jump in. What works for you for your pre-bed routine? Is there anything that you do? Obviously you said everyone's different, so everyone has a personalised approach, but what have you found that really works for your pre-bed routine?
Brad Bujaki (00:53:34):
My pre-bed routine is very strict because I am falling asleep typically just when the sun's right coming up. So I've got that early morning sunlight that's trying to wake me up, so I've got to fight real hard against that. So what I do typically to go to sleep is I actually have these orange goggles that make me look like an insect weirdo, but the tint of them, and it's a company in Toronto that produces them, and they're really fantastic where they block a lot of those wavelengths of light that are in the blue spectrum. And so it's not acting on my brain and telling it to wake up, so I'm only getting orange light. And so it's helping sort of just how your brain naturally starts getting sleepier when it's looking at a sunset. Just that wavelength of light is what's telling your brain to go to sleep. So I wear my glasses about an hour and a half. I put them on before bed, which is usually when I'm leaving work. So I'm walking home looking like just a freak, but it works for me.
(00:54:36):
And so I find this is sort of more actually in your domain with fitness and nutrition, not sure if it's necessarily the best thing to do. I find I cannot fall asleep if I'm hungry, so I'll have a little bite to eat as soon as I get home, like a handful of nuts or something just to keep the grumblings at bay. And then I'll brush my teeth and I'll start listening to something just like a podcast, possibly the Better With Broad podcast episode, that could be very helpful. I'll start listening to a podcast just to keep my mind from a lot of stressful thoughts like, oh, what if things I have to do the next day or things coming up that I just to keep my mind occupied on something else, but not too much that it keeps it from falling asleep. So I find listening to the radio, listening to a podcast you've heard maybe a hundred times before is very good. And also that's sort of what people like to do with television, but in a capacity where you don't have that blue light is better. So if it's a non-visual medium, definitely preferred if you're the kind of person who likes to listen to something while falling asleep. But that's what I do and I'm out like a baby.
Brock Ashby (00:55:49):
Yeah. So do you put a podcast timer on and then fall asleep to that?
Brad Bujaki (00:55:54):
Yes, exactly. On the podcast app that I use, I set it to just stop at the end of the podcast or at the end of the episode, and I never make it more than 10 minutes in any way. Yeah,
Brock Ashby (00:56:04):
Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Moving on to the next one, keeping your schedule consistent. We kind of touched on this already, haven't we?
Brad Bujaki (00:56:12):
Yeah, there's not, I think too much more that I really had to say about this. Just being aware that your body really, it's just a glutton for consistency. So just finding a schedule that works for you and sticking to it, and your body will thank you for it.
Brock Ashby (00:56:30):
No phones in the bedroom, actually, this is a big one. So I want to start on this, what I've been doing recently. So I used to just sleep with my phone beside me on the floor, and it was on silent, and I would make it face down. It would annoy me so much when it's facing up and it lights up the whole room and you're almost asleep and it's like, oh,
(00:56:53):
I thought I was asleep. And I remember leaving it there one night and I had a challenge. And it was the night before the challenge closed. It was a built by Brock eight week challenge, and the signups were coming through from people overseas in different time zones. Oh boy. And it was just like I woke up with 70, 80, 90 emails and it was like it going crazy. I slipped through it, but my fiance was up all night just waiting for the vibrations. So I learned from then I just turn it off and put it in another room, just charging or just whatever. And even though it hasn't really changed my sleep personally, because I'm a pretty deep sleeper, just the habit of doing it makes me feel better. It makes me feel like I'm getting better sleep even though I'm not sure that I am. But just the whole mindset of, okay, electronics out of the room. We even took our TV and just put it in the lounge because we used to have it in bed. We take everything like that out and we're in the bedroom is just where we go back and sleep. And it's helpful. Yeah,
Brad Bujaki (00:57:57):
Absolutely. That's all really fantastic things that I would recommend. Anyway. Phones, I always keep my phone in another room and also even in aeroplane mode because I don't even want to hear it. If it rings in another room, I don't care. It can wait. So having your bedroom really be an environment where your brain can recognise this is for sleep. It's not for being on your phone, it's not for watching television. This is really all it's used for that really, it's just far more gentle on your brain to have an environment where it's like, all right, this is your relaxing space. So I'm really glad to hear that you found that whether or not you're technically sleeping better, you're feeling better about it. And that's a huge part of it as well. The subjective aspect
Brock Ashby (00:58:41):
Of it. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose it's a bit of placebo, but it feels more like, okay, this is what we do in this room in sleep. And I remember when I first started in personal training, I went to a course and they kind of touched on sleep a little bit. Obviously not the depth that you've studied it on, but they were saying have certain places in the house or certain things that you do things for things. So bed for sleep, don't lie on your lie on your bed, getting ready for bed and scrolling on your phone because then your brain's going to, or your body's going to remember, okay, I lie down and this is where I scroll.
Brad Bujaki (00:59:17):
Also in the morning, Hey, don't scroll on your phone when you're first in. Get out of bed when you wake up.
Brock Ashby (00:59:22):
Yeah, great advice. Yeah. So stuff like that. Okay, couch, don't fall asleep on the couch because then your body's going to remember, okay, this is where I sleep. So then every time you sit there, you might start getting tired and your body might start shutting down or different things like that. When I go to my desk, I work instead of, I'm not sure playing around or sleeping on your chair if you want to sleep on your chair. But having that place to do certain things definitely helped me in all aspects, not just sleep, like you sit down, okay, this is when I work, so I'm going to work, or
Brad Bujaki (00:59:58):
Yeah, your body craves consistency, so give it what it wants. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:00:04):
Number four, no caffeine in the afternoon.
Brad Bujaki (01:00:07):
Yes. So with caffeine, a lot of the times caffeine will have a longer effect on the brain than a lot of people maybe realise it does. So a lot of people will think about caffeine like, okay, so caffeine, the half-life of that is five to seven hours. So if I have a cup of coffee at five or 4:00 PM by 11, that's going to be out of my system. Whereas in actuality, half-life means half that caffeine caffeine's going to be out of your system and the other half is still going to be there while you're trying to fall asleep. And then by the time it's five in the morning, a quarter of that caffeine is still going to be in your system. And so I always recommend no caffeine after 2:00 PM is usually the latest I would recommend because it does whether or not you're sort of feeling that alertness or that energy that you associate with having a cup of coffee, there are these sort of residual effects that do maybe if you're not noticing them consciously, they're still having an effect on your unconscious brain when it's trying to go through these different things.
(01:01:11):
It needs to during sleep. So better to be on the safe side, no caffeine after 2:00 PM And I know there are absolutely tonnes of cultures where it's like, oh yeah, we have our supper, we have our dessert with coffee,
Brock Ashby (01:01:22):
Have a coffee before bed.
Brad Bujaki (01:01:23):
Exactly. Whether or not there's a cultural significance to that, I cannot say whether it's good for sleep. Sorry, it's not.
Brock Ashby (01:01:34):
It's not. Yeah. Yeah. Actually that's something I was introduced to with my fiance. She's Macedonian and they have sometimes, or we call it, I properly stuffed that up, but Turkish coffee at night sometimes. And I love it. I actually have, I think a talent with caffeine as in I can just have a coffee and just go straight to sleep. It's probably because I was drinking a litre back when I was personal training. I just have this immunity where it doesn't even affect me
Brad Bujaki (01:02:05):
Anymore. And you say you toss internal a lot as well throughout your sleep, huh?
Brock Ashby (01:02:10):
I'm probably just shaking because I'm
Brad Bujaki (01:02:14):
Got
Brock Ashby (01:02:14):
The caffeine jitters and the last point prioritise relaxation. And I think that that's often, often not a priority in people's life, just sitting there and relaxing.
Brad Bujaki (01:02:29):
And so with this one, I am worried I'm going to sound contradictory and I'm just going to go back on everything that I said, but I do have a point and I will explain, I promise. I actually, I practised it, explaining it to my partner earlier so that he could understand it. So now I know I've got it down pat. Alright, that's good. So in terms of a lot of people that will have trouble with insomnia, the thing with insomnia is a lot of the times it can be very psychologically based rather than actually physiologically what's happening with your sleep. And that people will have a lot of worries about sleep and about their sleeping environment. There's really truly nothing that can keep you awake better than I have to go to sleep, I have to go to sleep. I have this thing in the morning that I have to get this much sleep. Nothing will keep you awake better than that.
Brock Ashby (01:03:18):
I can vouch for that. I can vouch for that.
Brad Bujaki (01:03:21):
And so a lot of the times people will find, or what happens is that your brain will start associating those thoughts, those stressful sort of anxious feelings with your sleep environment, which is very counterintuitive. Like I was saying, have this specific place for sleep so that it can recognise that. But if it's you're having this emotional association with sleep where you're getting very anxious and stressed out about it, that's also going to be how your brain interprets it. So sometimes I'll find, even when people are coming to my lab and I'm hooking them up with wires and things and expecting them to sleep with it, they'll find, oh, I actually had a great sleep tonight for some reason. And it's because they're in a new environment, their brain's not having that same association.
(01:04:06):
I find the best thing that works when patients come into my lab and they're worried about being able to fall asleep, I tell them, try your best. Don't even worry about it. You might not fall asleep and that might happen. But if you're just lying there relaxed and you know that it's okay, it's all right to have a bad night of sleep maybe tonight, and then maybe your next one's going to be better if you just aren't concerned saliently with I have to fall asleep, I have to fall asleep. If you just focus on relaxing, just sort of be more in the moment. Usually sleep will really get it stranglehold on you at that point. So just prioritising, relaxing more than sleeping necessarily, I guess is what I meant by that.
Brock Ashby (01:04:48):
So do you think that's why maybe listening to a podcast or having white noise or having almost a little distraction, not like a TV show or something to really captivate you, but just sounds to be like, okay, I'm not just lying there going, I need to sleep because tomorrow I have a big meeting or tomorrow's a big day, I really need a good sleep.
Brad Bujaki (01:05:11):
Absolutely. It works for me.
Brock Ashby (01:05:14):
Yeah. And is there any recommendations that you would have for people that just kind of, because I know a lot of people that struggle with sleep, waking up in the middle of the night, not being able to sleep heaps on their mind. Is there anything that you'd recommend?
Brad Bujaki (01:05:28):
You mean aside from recommending going back and listening to the first two episodes of the Better Rock podcast? Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:05:33):
Yeah,
Brad Bujaki (01:05:34):
I
Brock Ashby (01:05:34):
Would. And just trying to be in the moment and stuff like that because I can imagine people just going, okay, I'm just going to be in the moment, and then they're thinking about being in the moment and then they're worried about two things
Brad Bujaki (01:05:47):
That old chestnut. Absolutely. Yeah. What I would say for people who are having trouble getting to sleep, if they're having those thoughts, the flight of thoughts, having trouble quieting their brain, either even at the beginning of that or throughout the night, if they're waking up, having trouble falling back to sleep, the best rule of thumb to go off of is after maybe about 20 minutes to a half hour get out of bed, you might be thinking like, oh, but I have to get this much sleep. You're not going to be sleeping regardless. So breaking that association of having these thoughts in bed is the best thing really you can do at that time for having proper sleep hygiene. So after about 20 minutes, half hour, if you're still not asleep, get out of bed, start doing just something else, do some dishes, maybe start reading something, and then only go back to bed when you are feeling tired again so that your brain will be able to reform that association just with being tired, not with having all this stress about it.
Brock Ashby (01:06:44):
Yeah, that's great advice. I actually struggled with that recently. I fell asleep on the couch, so breaking all the rules that I've been talking about, but I acknowledge, oh,
Brad Bujaki (01:06:55):
It's so fun to break these rules.
Brock Ashby (01:06:57):
Rules were made to be broken. So we were watching the office because actually that's hilarious. I've been watching that a lot lately. It's very funny. And we fell asleep on the couch with my fiance, and I think it was in that time that you said, that's not a good time to wake up. I woke up feeling tired, but it was also a bit too much. It was nine 30 at night, so I napped at nine till 9 30, 9 45, really not good. And then I tried to sleep for an hour. I was staring at the roof. So I woke up and I just started working and I think I fell asleep again at maybe one or two. I didn't feel great the next day, to be honest, but I literally feel like I'm just lying in bed, staring at the roof and it's not doing anything. And I was doing that thing, I need to sleep, I need to sleep, I need to sleep. And it just didn't work.
Brad Bujaki (01:07:49):
So you're saying that when you did end up falling back to sleep at one, that was after, sorry, had you said you were
Brock Ashby (01:07:57):
Just Yes. Yeah, so I was laying in bed and then I just got up and I started doing things like you were saying and just kind of did it because I was just thinking about it, I need to sleep. And I was thinking, oh no, I'm going to wake up early to try and work and I'm going to be tired. And I was just accumulating all these thoughts. So I just got up and did things until I felt tired again, and then I fell asleep. Obviously it was a short sleep and that, well, obviously napping at nine o'clock is not the ideal situation. That's probably definitely the cause. But I think also, and this is a bit of a side tangent, but lying down in bed sometimes the thoughts cannot be that great. Sometimes your mind can go into a bit of a rabbit hole. So I thought it might be better to distract myself with a bit of work or a bit of something to actually pass the time because you think, oh, this bad sleep. And then sometimes I go down a bit of a negative rabbit hole. So it was good to absolutely to get my mind off it.
Brad Bujaki (01:08:51):
And you know what? Not even always negative things. I've spent hours trying to fall asleep and not being able to, because I started thinking about all the cool things I would do if I got psychic abilities. So it's really just any thoughts, it's not great.
Brock Ashby (01:09:06):
Well, I would've preferred that then the way that I was going. It definitely. I need to get up now. And lastly, I just wanted to touch on the seven to nine hour recommendation. So that's kind of what I've been recommending. That's what I believe the research is kind of pointing us in this time. But why seven to nine hours and maybe what happens if there's less in seven to nine hours? And I know this is probably a big conversation, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it and then we can kind of wrap it up.
Brad Bujaki (01:09:37):
Yeah, no, absolutely. So the seven to nine hours is essentially the standard of sleep that we as humans need really. There's always going to be people who are like, oh, I heard about this person who gets four hours of sleep and they're fine. Also, like you were saying with bro science and exercising as well, I feel like a lot of stuff with exercising is one upsmanship and like, oh, I can do this much. I can do this much with sleep. It's the complete opposite direction where it's like, oh, I can sleep this little, I can sleep this. I don't need that much sleep.
(01:10:13):
And truly it goes as well back first of all. So what, second of all, not quite, because it goes as well back to that and how poor we are at being able to see when we're sleeping, how well we're sleeping, and also even throughout the day, the research also shows we as humans tend to also underestimate how sleepy we are, how fatigued we are throughout the day. We tend to think that we're even more alert than we are truly frightening scenarios where people don't realise they're maybe falling asleep for like three to four seconds while driving sometimes. So the seven to nine hours is essentially hardwired into our genetics as the amount of sleep that we need because of the different things that your brain needs to accomplish throughout the night. So we talked about those sleep phases that happen once every 90 minutes to two hours throughout the night and they'll happen over and over again.
(01:11:20):
And so even between those sleep cycles, there are distinct changes as well. Whereas at the beginning of the night, what you'll do is you'll have much longer deep sleep periods that stage three sleep that is used a lot for repairing your body, making sure your muscles are functioning properly, and especially the cardiovascular muscles. You really want to keep those healthy for sure. And then you don't have very much REM sleep at all, maybe only five minutes in the first sleep stage. And then each subsequent sleep cycle you have throughout the night, your deep sleep periods, your slow wave and three sleep will get shorter and shorter and your REM sleep periods will get longer and longer. And so in order to get enough of both the deep sleep that you want for repairing your body and also your REM sleep that you want for memory consolidation, emotional processing, and also all the smaller stages of sleep in between that your body also uses for, oh boy, I forget the word for performative memory, that's probably not it. Procedural memory. There we go. These are, especially when you're training, learning a new exercise, having your body learn the specific movements it has to go through, you need a certain amount of these other stages of sleep as well for your body to be able to acquire these skills.
Brock Ashby (01:12:40):
So is that where that whole sleep on it thing comes from when you're studying our sleep on it and you'll
Brad Bujaki (01:12:45):
Get it? Absolutely. And you know what it's viewed as sort of just like an idiom or something. People say, it's actually how it works when you sleep. Your brain goes through these processes where it's moving things from short-term memory to long-term memory. There's a certain stage of sleep where you'll have these very quick bursts of neural activity called sleep spindles. And that's been associated with learning new behaviours. If you're starting a new exercise, you might be really, oh, sorry, am I allowed to swear?
Brock Ashby (01:13:17):
That's all right. That's fine.
Brad Bujaki (01:13:18):
Sorry, really bad at it.
Brock Ashby (01:13:20):
No sponsors. We're good.
Brad Bujaki (01:13:21):
Okay. You might be really bad at these exercises The first time you try and the next day you'll find it comes a lot more easily because you've had these sleep spindles and the more you have in a night has been associated with being able to learn things better. And so the reason that we need the seven to nine hours depending on the person is because that's when you'll get the optimal amount of stage three sleep at the beginning of the night. And as well REM sleep near the end of the night. And so most of your REM is happening right in the morning, which is also why we tend to wake up in the morning from dreams. That's just more when we're having a REM sleep. And then also, so that's why if you're getting less than that, you're not really getting all, you might be getting a lot of deep sleep, maybe not very much REM sleep at all.
(01:14:15):
And so that's why definitely not less than seven to nine hours is recommended. On the other hand as well, sleeping longer than that, people who sleep maybe 10 to 12 hours, that's also not recommended because as you're going through your sleep and your REM is getting longer and longer, if you're continuing to sleep because of how active the brain is during REM sleep, you might find if you're sleeping in, you might even feel more tired than if you would've gotten up at your regular time because your brain is starting to fatigue itself, even just with how active it's being in this stage of sleep. So keeping it in that window is really the sweet spot.
Brock Ashby (01:14:52):
Wow, man, that makes sense. With my memory, my family, especially growing up in that phase where I told you I was like hustle, hustle, hustle. I thought sleep when you're dead, sleep is overrated type of thing. My memory could not have been worse. My brother, he was always laughing at my memory. My dad was laughing at my memory. But now I've come to a point where, and it was pretty much when I transitioned from face-to-face, personal training to online training because I had more time in the day. I was no longer waking up at 4 45 sculling a leader of coffee to go and train clients for 14 hours and then come back and sleep for four to six hours and repeat it. I actually had time to sleep. My memory has actually become a lot better. And my fiance said the other day, oh, or she said it a few times, that I have really good memory. And I'm like, man, that's
Brad Bujaki (01:15:41):
Definitely,
Brock Ashby (01:15:44):
Yeah, I've kind of turned the tables. I literally used to calculate my hours before bed and try and go, how little can I have?
(01:15:54):
I used to go four hours out. Yeah, that's good, that's good. We're going to get so much done tomorrow. But you don't realise how unproductive you are when you're tired, you think. And I was so obsessed with my mentality going all in focus, take over the world type of mindset, which is great, but mix that with no sleep and you don't actually end up achieving much. You kind of end up chasing your tail. And I feel like the ideas that I had and the things that I pursued were not of the quality that I'm pursuing now with a better perspective or vision with more sleep. It's crazy. And that's why I wanted to get you on because I've had such a transformation just from sleeping more. I literally used to think, how little can I get? And now I'm like, okay, let's be sensible. Let's get seven to nine. And even I'm still trying to get better. I still kind of sometimes fall between six, but that is a lot better than the four I was getting before. It's a huge transformation.
Brad Bujaki (01:16:49):
Every little bit counts. Absolutely. And I'm so glad to hear that.
Brock Ashby (01:16:53):
Yeah, it's a quality of life thing, man. Obviously the move from face-to-face to online was so I could help other people as well and say, work with people such as yourself in different countries. But the actual quality of life that I've actually had to have now in comparison to when I was so hustle bustle has been such a big change. May I just want to Sorry. You go. You go.
Brad Bujaki (01:17:19):
Oh, I was just going to say, because if you think about, oh yeah, I could get such a little sleep and then I'll have so much more time throughout the day. I mean, what's that worth? If you're exhausted, you can't do anything with it.
Brock Ashby (01:17:30):
I was constantly, so I used to nap in the car, not while driving. Sorry, car
Brad Bujaki (01:17:38):
Be a big question I was going to have for you. Yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:17:41):
Were you driving? So I used to drive into work and train clients from 6:00 AM till eight, nine. And I used to be so tired. I used to walk to the car park, put the thing back and just sleep. And I was so tired. I could sleep without having any earplugs. I'm in the CBD of Sydney, no eye cover. I would just fall asleep straight away, put my alarm on, back up, and then I'd go train clients. And then I went through a phase where I was doing it every possible time I was trying to nap. It was not a good place to be. So I guess I wanted to create this podcast for maybe the old bros running around there and just, it's such a change of quality of life for something so simple. And that's why I get really frustrated with things in the industry that are supplements that don't work or do this programme and build this much muscle. And it's like, try this diet. This is going to do that. And that when, because sleep is so hard to sell and it's not sexy, it's not talked about a lot like, Hey man, sleep seven to nine hours. Yeah. Everyone's like, whatever. Give me the bark,
(01:18:52):
Give me the powder that I can take so that I can shred body fat. But really all you, well, a big contributing factor could be just sleeping seven to nine hours and seeing how that plays out on the rest of your day. And one thing I guess I just want to close on is we've spoken about so much today, but there's also the fact that when you're unders slept, everything else kind of dominoes down. It just gets worse. Like me, when I used to not sleep much, my training was average, I was getting injured quite a lot, I did my back really bad. And people that are struggling to lose weight as well as that thing you were touching on with insulin levels and less sleep. When you're tired, you always take the most convenient option. And the most convenient option is not going home and cooking a healthy meal. It's grabbing takeaways on the way back, drive-through style, or it's grabbing a chocolate bar and just going to bed. And it's like not going for a walk. It's sitting down and watching the office I've been doing lately. It's not just the scientific or physiological response to not sleeping, it's also the psychological effects it has on you that really makes a huge difference in how your quality of life is throughout the day.
Brad Bujaki (01:20:11):
Absolutely. And also going back to the chocolate bar right before bed, people forget chocolate has caffeine in it too, so that's also really bad.
Brock Ashby (01:20:20):
No, good. Yeah, man. Well, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast, man. It's been an absolute pleasure. Pleasure. I've enjoyed this. And yeah, have you got any, I guess, departing words that you want to say? Or is there anything on the horizon that you're working on or that you are focusing on at the moment?
Brad Bujaki (01:20:40):
Oh boy. Well, in terms of working on, not necessarily, I guess I do work at just a public hospital, so I'm going to get paid the same anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But I guess, yeah, just something to part on, especially what you're talking about, about the sort of machismo sort of attitude towards sleep. We got to try hard and all you listeners at home, I don't know, whatever you can think of, try and make sleep seem cool. Let's try and make sleep cool again. Right? Is that a thing?
Brock Ashby (01:21:09):
Hashtag sleep. Cool. Again, let's try do it. Sleep. Cool.
Brad Bujaki (01:21:13):
Yeah. Well thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun,
Brock Ashby (01:21:18):
Man. Man, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time, man.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up team? Welcome to the second episode of The Bitter with Brock podcast, and today I have my first person on the podcast and Julie Mack. What's up?
Anjuli Mack (00:00:13):
I feel so honoured to be on the podcast first ever interview. Here we go.
Brock Ashby (00:00:18):
Well, I think you are actually probably one of the first people that I actually met in the fitness industry. I first started personal training when I was in Auckland, so I think we're going back to 2015.
Anjuli Mack (00:00:32):
Yeah, definitely. It would be about, yeah, 2000. I was actually thinking about that today. I think we met, yeah, about five or six years ago and you messaged me, I remember the first thing you said was about a supplement company or something. We just started talking about sponsorships and then as soon as we started speaking about fitness and business type stuff, Gary V came into the conversation and I knew at that point we were going to be friends.
Brock Ashby (00:00:55):
Yeah, I was new to the industry, so this was post me having a, I call it a midlife crisis. So I was 20 and I was pursuing music as you know, and I know that you have some musical talent as well, piano and violin. So this was on the back of me trying to pursue singing and then feeling like an absolute failure. So I have this memory where I was, I was flatting in Auckland living with five strangers that I didn't really know. We broke up their boy band, so Morehouse X factor in New Zealand, that type of stuff. And we kind of stopped the band and I remember I was just so lost. I was like, what should I do? So long story short, I got qualified pt and then I was checking out, I really don't know how I found your account. I must have searched hashtag Fitness New Zealand, because hashtags were a big thing. So I was like, okay, hashtag fitness.
Anjuli Mack (00:01:53):
I think you were searching, you must have been searching like Auckland New Zealand fitness posts. And I had just moved to Auckland too, and so you must have just stumbled across it. New Zealand's so small, so I feel like it's very easy to connect with one another and especially in the fitness community is so small, so it's really easy to connect with others through things like Instagram. So I'm so glad that we did connect because now we've changed paths so much since
Brock Ashby (00:02:21):
Then. It's crazy. At that time, yeah, me reaching out talking about sponsorships and stuff, that was the cool thing to do in the day. Get sponsored by one of the big brands and be like, yeah, I get to hold a supplement tub and put my name on the post. It's so funny how now we look back at it, that's a little bit cringe. We're kind of like, oh, we don't do that, or maybe we will, but that's not the peak of what we're trying to achieve. But back then it was like that's what people did. They got shredded. They got sponsored, they took shirtless photos or maybe not for chick like bikini photos and that was it. You've made it.
Anjuli Mack (00:03:03):
Yeah. I do feel like social media has changed a lot When we started out, I mean the thing was if you want to grow online, it is, it's bikini photos, it's going to the German looking good, the guys are looking pumped up. Your goal is to get a sponsorship and maybe if you get that sponsorship, maybe that brand's then going to share you, you're going to grow more. You're going to get this crazy amount of followers online. And I think back then it honestly was all about followers. People cared about numbers, they want sponsorships. They didn't even necessarily want money from social media. They just wanted some kind of, I guess Instagram fame for being partnered with certain brands in the industry, whether it's clothing or supplements. So back then, I mean that was the epitome of it, but since then I'm so glad it's changed its course. And I think you and I do a really good job of using social media now to educate and inspire others to live a healthier lifestyle as opposed to just posting photos of how we look, hoping that people then buy the products that we're selling, which we're not about. I'm all for using supplements and I do love sooner supplements, but I'm not relying on that to make my living.
Brock Ashby (00:04:13):
Yeah, I think it's definitely changed because we would follow these big accounts. We would see they're sponsored by, for example, I used to look up to Steve Cook, Mr. Optimum Nutrition. So just because of him, I bought the tab and I was like, yeah, a hundred percent gold way, I'm going to get shredded like Steve Cook. And then I started buying their protein bars and then I started buying fat burners and all this kind of stuff. And yeah, like you're saying, it's good that we've kind of changed trajectory because, and this is not a dig at Steve Cook or anything, but these guys that were doing, it would just, that's how they were getting paid or that's how they were making a living. They were doing YouTube and all that kind of stuff, but we'd look at it and go, because they're taking that, they have that physique, therefore I need that.
(00:04:58):
But now we're more so posting, okay, you can have that, but it's not going to be the magical secret or it's not going to be how you get that dream physique that you want or how you get stronger. And I definitely think the conversations around goal setting is changing. It's not just about getting that shredded beach physi, even though that's a great goal for some people. It's more so about how you use your body, how you're feeling mentally. Do you really need a six pack? Do you not? Do you need it all year round? Do you not?
Anjuli Mack (00:05:30):
I definitely, I think that's really important when you say how you feel mentally and physically, the whole idea of my social media handles is fit for life. And I said this years ago when I very first started going to the gym, I called my Instagram page Fit for Life, and that was because I wanted to be literally fit for life, not for summer, not for a certain event or anything like that. It was about being mentally and physically like Wow. And so what that means is you could be absolutely treated, I could be very lean dieting for months to get on stage, but if you are not mentally healthy, then that doesn't mean anything. Just like someone else could lose a lot of weight. But if they're not taking care of their mental health as well, it's, it's not the optimal, I guess, position you want to be in.
(00:06:16):
So I'm all for bettering myself on a mental and a physical side of things, which means reading, listening to good podcasts, watching motivational YouTube videos, business videos online, working out as well as going for walks outside in the fresh air and getting some sun. I enjoy that. And it's mindful time for me, not because I see it as cardio and making sure that I'm drinking enough water and actually sleeping seven to nine hours. I'm really big on overall wellbeing, and that's something that I've focused on most of the time. But of course, we always get sidetracked with different things that happen in life,
Brock Ashby (00:06:54):
And I think that's what's changing. If we go back to what I was talking about before, Steve Cook and supplements or just any fitness models, they weren't talking about that stuff. They weren't talking about sleep. They wouldn't share how much water they drank or how important it is or their rest days. It was kind of like, take supplements, work hard, don't sleep, hustle, hustle, hustle. And now it's more of a open conversation of, okay, how's other areas in your life? Because I was a byproduct of that on the bad side, and maybe you will too. We can talk about that. But I was like, okay, these guys are just hardcore. So we don't sleep, we don't eat. We have these, we just have protein shakes and boiled eggs. I was doing stuff like crazy stuff. I would go onto, and I touched about this on the first episode, I would go onto websites and search up, I remember simply shredder.com, I'd search them up and read their interviews and they'll be like, I have six ounces of chicken breast and one cup of brown rice and a cup of broccoli and all. So I was doing this stuff, super restrictive, no idea what a calorie deficit was, no idea what progressive overload was. No idea if these supplements worked. But the little money I had at this time, I was definitely pushing it towards supplements and all that kind of stuff. I thought all this stuff mattered really majoring in the miners, but the conversation is different now.
Anjuli Mack (00:08:24):
Yeah, definitely. And I smiled so much at everything you said because I remember simply shred.com, I remember bodybuilding.com when it was free, you could jump online, you could read up what all the top fitness models in the USA were eating, which was usually like white fish,
Brock Ashby (00:08:39):
Tilapia.
Anjuli Mack (00:08:41):
Yeah, tilapia egg white. And I feel like a lot of people now because of the way social media has changed, they don't know what it was like 10 years ago when we were out looking online this Googling what does so-and-So, and it was all the same. It was always the white fish, the broccoli, the brown rice, and everyone would have this template diet that you would then try and copy. And it was super restrictive. No one educated, no one even really knew what a calic deficit was back then. I didn't even think they knew. They just thought, okay, I'm just going to eat these boring foods and I'm going to get results. And so everyone around the world's like, oh, well, they look like that. I'm going to do that too. And I'll even buy the exact protein they buy.
Brock Ashby (00:09:22):
Exactly. I remember Googling, can you get tilapia in New Zealand? I couldn't find it. I think it was like an American fish, a whitefish American. I'm fish, I think. Yeah. But I was like, can I get this? And yeah, it was always eight meals a day, and then it was training seven days a week. So I was overworking undereating and all this type of stuff. But on this topic, what do you think are the biggest things that you fell for? Fell for that you look back and go, man, that was crazy.
Anjuli Mack (00:09:55):
Definitely detox teas. I'm so embarrassed by the old video footage they had when I was in university, so 10 years ago almost now. And I was at university and I fell for detox T because I thought it would help make me mark skinny, which is what at the start, people wanted, they wanted to be skinny. I was a university student. I wanted to be that. So I thought, okay, I'll get this detox tea. And I remember making this video about how I thought this detox tea would kickstart my metabolism in the morning. And the marketing worked on me. And that's why I'm not afraid to admit that I fell for it because I'm sure many other people will. And I hope that someone listens to this and they're like, oh, I saw an advert for a tea. I better not buy that because it doesn't work.
(00:10:38):
And I have to say, like you said, there's no magical quick fixes. I definitely fell for the detox teas. I also fell for the low carb situation. I tried to eat so boring throughout the week, and then I'd go crazy on the weekend. So I tried to do some form of keto diet, but it would just pretty much be like spinach, chicken, egg whites, even. I don't even know if I would eat the egg yos broccoli. And I'd do that Monday to Friday if I could even get to the Friday sticking to that. And then come the weekend, I was a uni student, so I would go out partying. I would just go complete opposite directions and every single Monday was the same. Okay, diet such Monday. Okay, weekend cheap meal. And I had such a bad relationship with food, and I just think that the internet and the misinformation out there when I started, set me up for that because how else was, I meant to know what I should be doing. But now that's why I'm so promoing flexible dieting, if you saw my Instagram story this week, I've had sushi five days in a row for lunch, and I love it. Give me the carbs.
Brock Ashby (00:11:51):
It's such a funny thing because I fell, I didn't fall for the detox teas thing. I think that was more targeted towards females guys and tea didn't really, that's not really, well now it's definitely more of a thing. I'm not saying that real men don't drink tea, but it was definitely pushed more towards the female market and use
Anjuli Mack (00:12:12):
Bi bikini models.
Brock Ashby (00:12:15):
So I didn't fall for that really. I wasn't really, even though I did think green tea sped up your metabolism. So I remember having five green teas a day, going to the bathroom every 30 minutes, 30 30. And to supercharge my fat loss, what I would do is put in two tea bags.
Anjuli Mack (00:12:36):
Oh my. The secret to getting bro bloody guys, it's out there. It's two tea bags of green tea.
Brock Ashby (00:12:43):
I was like, I could speed it up double as fast if I put two in and then I would, yeah, I was doing crazy things. I remember this is probably the most crazy thing that I did, and it used to really piss people off, especially in Auckland after I met you, I remember seeing that if your colder, your metabolism's faster because your body's working harder to heat you up. So I used to eat ice, so I used to get, it's so embarrassing. I used to get a glass of ice and just sit down and just chew it. And if you've heard people chew ice, it's the loudest thing ever. It's so annoying. And I remember Nikki, who I was living with at the time, she used to be like, Brock, are you chewing ice? I can hear you upstairs. I was like, yes, I'm getting shredded. I'm doing this for my body. And yeah, that was such a low point.
Anjuli Mack (00:13:40):
We would not be friends if we sat in a room and you sat there eating ice one. I can't stand loud chewing noises, but two, I would think it was so ridiculous. But just goes to show the growth. Everyone starts somewhere. And we've definitely made these mishaps and people can learn that you don't need to be chewing on ice to speed up your metabolism or try and detox teas or double tea fair, getting green tea.
Brock Ashby (00:14:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I tried everything ke and pepper, even though I hate spicy food. I was trying to eat spicy foods because that made you shredded, man. There was heaps of things. But on the thing that detox teas, I guess targeting towards the female market, you've actually focused your energy in coaching women, right? So what made you do that? Why did you just go, okay, I really want to help women get in the best shape of their life or transform their body?
Anjuli Mack (00:14:35):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question because of course I could help men and women and some women do ask me for their husbands or boyfriends and things like that. Of course I send them your way. But in terms of coaching women, for me personally, when I started Fitness Journey, I never started to change how I looked. I started going to the gym as stress relief. So like you said, I had a music background. I played violin and piano. I was doing violin performance at university alongside accounting, which you can imagine is super stressful. So I started going to the gym as a way just to give me a break, but me being me, anything I do I really want to do well. So I ended up really getting into the gym. I started getting really strong. I started training with a lot of the guys there because there were no women in the gym at that point in time.
(00:15:23):
They were all in the typical cardio place in which the gym was back then. And so yeah, I started training with the guys. I got really strong. And then I remember the thing that kind of set me on my fitness journey and that put me down the path of trying detox tears and fad diets was I had heard some girls at uni speaking about me and the things that they were saying, it just goes to show that what people say about you can really stick with you. Some girls had said something along the lines of, oh, why does she go to the gym all the time? But she doesn't have abs. And I never went to the gym to have abs. I mean, I didn't even know that was a thing. I wasn't really super interested in that at the start. But that obviously got into my hand and I started thinking like, oh, that's a good point.
(00:16:07):
Why do I go to the gym and I don't have abs? And that set me off on trying detox tea and fad diets and looking on bodybuilding com to find out what everyone else was eating. But because of that moment, I think that really, I guess set me up to go on to wanting to help other people understand how to achieve their goals without trying all the fad diets that I tried. So that was the first thing, and that's why I started sharing my journey on Instagram. I wanted to take some progress photos, I wanted to share what I was doing. And then as I got into competing in 2017, after I started posting my transformation photos, that's when I realised how many women needed help. I was getting messages all the time asking what I did, how did I lose stomach, how did I build leg muscle?
(00:16:55):
How do you tighten up your waist? Every kind of question you can imagine. I had it. And so I realised that obviously I needed to learn very quickly how to help all these women. So that's when I started ISSA. I am doing some NASM work now as well, just trying to educate myself as best as I could so that I could help them. And then I decided to specialise in women because I wanted to help more women feel good in their own skin. I knew what it felt like, especially after my first competition to go from achieving my goals to then going the complete polar opposite, because after my first competition, I actually blew out completely. I went binge eating for months. I gained the weight back and more. And just going through that experience really showed me how, I guess my relationship with myself, my confidence and everyone else is so impacted by how I feel my body and how I train.
(00:17:49):
And so I wanted to make sure that women wouldn't go through all the same things I did, like the binge eating, the low self-confidence, the fad diets and detoxes and things like that. I just wanted to help educate people that you can actually get results and feel really good without having to do all of that stuff. So yeah, that's why I stuck with women. I mean, I could coach men, but I just feel like I have more of a passion for helping women feel good in their own skin. And that's also why I don't do cold prep type stuff. I feel like my passion is in helping people build really healthy, sustainable, long-term lifestyles, that they can lose the weight or build muscle and keep that for their life, as opposed to just losing weight for a competition and then going the other way after. So
Brock Ashby (00:18:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess you've been in the driver's seat of that and felt what it's like to maybe potentially restrict and not have the tools to deal with what happens when you get to that lean body fat percentage and have those levels of hunger. So what led you to competing? You've kind of just said you've competed, and I know you've competed a number of times, but what made you want to do that? I know that it can be a natural progression. You kind of like, okay. And as we talked about before, previously that was one of the epitome, or sorry, pinnacles of fitness. It was like sponsorships, competing, use the competing photos, get more sponsorships and make fitness a living. So what made you compete
Anjuli Mack (00:19:26):
Totally. I think they go hand in hand. At the start, it would be, oh, you compete and you get those sponsorship. But for me personally, I already had the sponsorship with a supplement company. I met someone else that was competing. We became friends and I saw how she looked, and I pretty much came down to a point of like, oh, I've been trained for a few years. I feel like I look quite good, but I'd love to see where I could be if I was to do some kind of a competition prep. So I remember flying home from Australia from a fitness expo and reaching out to a coach and just saying, Hey, the friend I met, I said to her, I was like, oh, hey, I really want to do this competition. It's in a hundred days. Do you think I can do it?
(00:20:06):
And yeah, the rest was history from that. I just thought, okay, I'm going to do it. And my only goal for competing was to step on that stage to see if I could do it. I didn't set out to get first, I didn't set out for any placings. All I wanted to do is just see if I liked it. And I went through this prep. It was 16 weeks of clean eating, and I say clean, clean if it fits your macros wasn't a thing. The last four weeks I think was a classic white fish, broccoli, sweet potato, oats, rice cakes. It was a bodybuilders type diet. And I just didn't know how to handle the post competition phase. And I left my coach, which was my mistake. I should have stayed with a coach to get me through that. But lesson learned. So yeah, when it comes to competing, it was literally just a case.
(00:20:55):
If I saw someone else that looked amazing and I wanted to look like that, and so I thought I'll try it. But once they stepped on the stage, I guess it comes from my musical background, I was used to performing. I love violin, I love piano, I love being performing in front of people. And so for me, stepping on stage, it was just like the lights were on. And yeah, I was nervous at the time because it was my first time wearing six inch heels on a stage in front of people and a tiny bikini, but something in me just clicked. And I loved it. I loved the audience, I loved the hair, the makeup, the pretty bikinis, and I was hooked from that moment. And it wasn't even about getting placed things, it was just about setting a goal and then working really hard to achieve it.
(00:21:36):
And I didn't place in that competition. There was 60 girls on stage. It was absolutely, it was crazy. We were up there for I think 40 minutes standing on stage under the hot lights. And I don't know, I loved every bit about it. So I then went on to compete a few more times, and in my second show I played second in a massive lineup as well. So it really just goes to show, I guess if you put your mind on something, you can go out and achieve it. And that's what I love about it. But I think competing isn't for everyone, and I'm really big on that. I think women are starting to compete so young these days. My first competition, I would've been 21 I think, which is still young, which is still young. But now I'm seeing girls competing at 18 to 20 years old.
(00:22:23):
And I mean, if you don't have a good coach to set you up for success in terms of your relationship with food, it can really, really mess you up. And people can come out of it with, I guess post competing eating disorders because it can set you up for a really bad relationship with food. But I've just spent years working on myself, and I can safely say that now I have the best relationship with myself and food that I've had in the whole journey, which is awesome. But yeah, I definitely think that competing is something that people need to really think about what their why is. I know when we talk about fitness dreams, we talk about your why and if your why for competing was to impress a certain guy or a girl or if it's to get that Instagram profile photo or like you said, get some kind of a sponsorship, not a good enough reason.
(00:23:18):
And if you are thinking that stepping on stage is going to improve your self worth or give you some kind of external validation, it's like thinking that if you get a hundred thousand followers on Instagram, you're going to suddenly be a better person. You really aren't. Just because you shred down or you step on stage and look really good for a day doesn't really improve your self-worth. I think what improves your confidence in your self-worth is setting a goal and then achieving it. So for me, it might be stepping on stage for someone else, it might be to lose 50 pounds so they can run around with their kids. For someone else it might be to lose a bit of weight to fit their wedding dress so they feel really good in it. I think competing is definitely something that can be amazing for someone that's doing it for the right reasons. And at the end of the day, only one person can get that first place trophy. So if that's your only reason for doing it, save yourself the hunger and the effort and just like, oh no, go do something else.
Brock Ashby (00:24:10):
Yeah, I think that's one thing that people don't understand about competing how challenging it really is. I've never competed, but I feel like as I was going through those younger stages of my life, watching the reading the articles and all that, I was kind of living like a competitive pro bodybuilder because that's what I was reading. So I almost felt like I competed even though I would never have placed because I was doing everything wrong, but the amount of dedication it takes, the diet, the training, the extreme feelings of fatigue. I've had a really, really close mate compete and he won, but man, he was feeling he was taking days off work. He was not showing up to uni classes to sleep. He was cooking baking chicken breast around the clock and sweet potato, all that kind of crazy stuff, but also didn't have this concept of calories, calorie deficit, the percentage he was on and all that kind of stuff.
(00:25:06):
Can you give us an insight of what the training's like, what the diet's like, what the lifestyle's like? Because I think it'd be great to give people a really honest perspective. You are extremely down to earth and transparent about it because there's a lot of people that kind of glorify competing, which is great because it is a great goal for a goal-driven person. It can be a great goal for a person to kind of tick it off. And if they have the right mindset, like you said around nutrition and training and this kind of sustainable approach in the back of their mind, they can come out the other end and just be like, okay, I got really lean. Now it's time to do a different phase of dieting. But there are people that kind of get chewed up and spit out with a eating disorder or with body dysmorphia and they never feel satisfied anymore. So what is that whole process like getting that lean?
Anjuli Mack (00:25:54):
Yeah, awesome question. So I think the key thing in there you said is they can come out of it, the other side better off, and that's a big can not everyone does, and I don't say it to scare people from competing. I absolutely love competing, but it honestly isn't for everyone. Every prep is going to be different. So I've had done four competitions and I've had four different comp coaches. I had a fifth one last year and it was cancelled six weeks out for the show due to everything happening in the world. But each prep with each coach has been different for me. So I went from the clean eating kind of bodybuilders coach of my first year to the second one was pretty much clean eating type vibes as well, a little bit more flexibility, but still leading up to the show the fish thing every day.
(00:26:37):
And then the other two coaches were both very different as well. So every prep is going to be different and each coach will take it a different route. But in general, depending on your starting point and things like that, say someone has, let's just say I would personally prep for 16 to 20 weeks usually, so say four to five months, you might spend, if you have less fat to lose, you might spend about say 16 weeks dieting. When I say dieting down, we are not just talking about, oh, I'll track Monday to Friday and come the weekend. I'm just going to go out with the girls. It is everything tracked. It's not a child latte out for your Sunday brunch. It's like if I go out for brunch, it's eggs on toast butter on the side, and I don't use the butter and it's poached eggs, not fried eggs.
(00:27:29):
Everything is so calculated for a comp prep if you want to do well, and if you want to look your absolute best, and I honestly don't think you should be doing a comp prep if you are not willing to give it your absolute a hundred percent because it's not worth it. My idea of competing is to every single time look better and the only way to look better is to give it that bit more in terms of work effort that you can each time. And so that means tracking everything to the tea. I don't have one lick of the peanut butter spoon when I'm in my last two preps. Of course, my first two were a little bit more flexible, especially my first little few extra teaspoons peanut butter here and there. But in my last two preps, the last prep I did, I was in the best shape of my life.
(00:28:14):
I was the most shredded I'd ever been. I was two kilos less than I would usually be on stage. I actually came in way too lean. But like you said, it is so hard leaning up to that show, I don't even, I grimace just thinking about how hard it was mentally. I was tired. I was snappy for two months leading up to it. I feel so sorry for my fiance Ross, who had to deal with me through that time. I was just not myself. I really just was unhappy. I was hungry all the time. I remember he was going out somewhere with family and I just couldn't go out on the afternoon. I fell asleep on the couch on a Saturday afternoon. And that to me just isn't, I mean, it's just not really life. I don't think life is made to be lived hungry, unnecessarily hungry all the time to get to a low body fat percentage.
(00:29:04):
I also lost my cycle during that time, and it took me, I think 12 months after that to get my cycle back or so. And now I've had it consistently for months, almost two years or so. So I've been really good since then. But I just think people need to realise it's not just the training. If you want to do a competition, I'm going to speak mainly for girls, obviously. I know what it's like to prep for a bikini show. It's not just the training. It's not just the weighing your food and meal, prepping everything and having to skip out eating when you go out with friends or whatever. It's the sleep making sure you're getting seven to nine hours. It's being able to handle your workload, especially if you have a full-time job. I have some nurses and things. And still being able to function mentally to perform your job at an adequate level without snapping at your coworkers or your clients and no leading up to a show.
(00:29:55):
I can be very blunt in my messages when I'm replying to people and no one likes. That's not my finest moments and my dms. But yeah, it's so much more than just that. It's also the hours of posing practise. It's the making sure that you are taking care of your skin, your hair, your nails, because the federation that I compete in WBFF is pretty much a beauty pageant. It's not just about how you look physically in terms of muscle tone. It's your hair, your makeup, your nails, your skin and overall presentation. They want to put you on a magazine cover type look. And I absolutely love that, but it's not for everyone. So yeah, in terms of the training, I would do four to six days a week in the starting phases, depending on my training split usually five to six days a week. And then as you get closer to the show, that might increase to say six days a week.
(00:30:50):
But then you've got maybe hit in the last four weeks, hit two to three times a week on top of your weight training, and then you've also got your steps. I think the most steps I've ever had is like 14,000 in a day every single day on top of my training and stuff. And that might not sound like a lot to others, but for someone that has a desk job and you work from home, it is quite an effort to get 14,000 steps a day plus still have time to maybe see friends or maybe spend time with your fiance or partner or whatever as well. So it's just so much more than just training and nutrition. A lot goes into it. And I track everything, my ward and my sleep, my nutrition, my training, everything is progressive.
Brock Ashby (00:31:29):
I think that one thing that attracts people to it is this element of the extreme. You touched on. People love an extreme. They go crazy for it. Like carnivore, I'm an extreme carnivore. I don't eat plants or I'm an extreme vegan plant-based eater that is a big one. Or keto or going with your training extremely this, okay, I only do callisthenics, I don't do anything else. I only do CrossFit. I only do F 45. I only lift heavy weights. Cardio's a waste of time. Everyone that's doing it just needs to eat less. And this extreme mindset, and I know because I've come from it as well, I was like, no cardio, just lift weights or extreme no carb. I was trying to avoid carbohydrates, like anything like I shared in the previous podcast, I remember picking crotons out of someone's tomato soup that they made for me while I was at their house in front of them completely, just completely offending because it's so extreme. You think it must be extremely better. And that's,
Anjuli Mack (00:32:37):
People love to live in extremes because I think balance is hard, right? It's easier for a lot of people to say, cut out all carbs than it is to say, okay, I can have a couple of crackers at the grazing table or one champagne glass at the wedding, but I'm not going to. As opposed to, okay, no champagne or no crackers, no nibbling. People love to live in extremes. And that's where I think competing is so extreme and that you are hyper-focused on one goal and that's all you see and your tunnel vision for it and everything else just doesn't even matter. So I guess I could see why someone would prep for that because it gives them an extreme goal or a marathon run or something. And you're only working up for that goal, but you have to really think about what your goal is.
(00:33:28):
Long-term in terms of lifestyle, where do you want to be five years from now? Do you want to be eating the exact way that you are eating right now or do you want to actually have a balanced lifestyle? And I think of this mainly in terms of keto because I'm not a fan of cutting out all carbs. I just think it's unnecessary. So if someone told you, right, you're going to lose the same amount of weight by cutting out carbs or eating carbs overall, which do you choose? Of course you should of course choose to eat the carbs because in five years time you could still be doing that. Whereas for kiddo, I honestly dunno how many people do it and actually enjoy it. Truly enjoy it.
Brock Ashby (00:34:05):
Yeah, I tried it and yeah, I was picking crotons out of my tomato soup. I did not enjoy that, but I thought I was doing a great thing because it was so extreme. But yeah, it's true. I think with the whole extreme thing, you kind of put yourself by doing something so extreme, you put yourself into that tier of top tier athletes in your head because they do such extreme stuff. They train every day. They have a hardcore nutrition thing or the pro bodybuilders, they're carrying around their meal prep containers and all that kind of stuff. You think, oh, that's extreme, that's hardcore. I want to be hardcore. And that's why if you just say, oh, you can still have ice cream at night, but maybe just don't have the whole tub, just have a couple of squince, they're like, oh, that's not hardcore enough.
Anjuli Mack (00:34:48):
Yeah, I think
Brock Ashby (00:34:49):
It's like how hardcore can you be?
Anjuli Mack (00:34:52):
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it really just comes down to an individual and recognising what their goal is and truly why it's that. It depends why you started your fitness journey. I said I didn't start it to change how I looked. I kind of guess just changed. I did it to change how I felt. And through the years of competing and things like that, I've learned what it feels like to be on different spectrums of the scale. And I can confidently say that regardless of whether I have abs or not, it doesn't actually improve my confidence overall because leaning into my first petition four weeks out, I was like, oh, I'm not lean enough. I don't look good enough. And I was in the best shape I'd ever been at that point in time. I'd never even seen my abs until my first competition. So it really can come to play on giving you body dysmorphia and things like that. And that's not just for competitors, it's for anyone. When you got really lean when you started out or whatever, you could still think, I'm not lean enough or I'm not big enough. And I think both men and women can struggle with that.
Brock Ashby (00:35:57):
Yeah, I think it almost increases as you get leaner, sometimes people's transformation can start out of an insecurity. Let's say, okay, I want to feel confident about myself. I don't like my body. That's an insecurity that they have. So they go, okay, I'm going to go to the gym to try and improve this or maybe eliminate this insecurity out of my life. So you train, you do everything. You follow your diet, you stay strict. You try and sleep, you try and drink all your water, and let's say you're getting leaner, you're getting leaner, you're getting leaner. But what I found, and I'm speaking from personal experience, the leaner I got and the less I weighed, the worse my insecurity was. I think that's why compre can be great for some people if they have the right mindset, but it can also be very dangerous because you reach a point of leanness that you'll only ever achieve in a compre. And then when you look at yourself in a photo that where your body fat is not that lean comp prep, I'm on stage, I got faked tan on, I'm really lean hair and
Anjuli Mack (00:37:00):
Makeup, everything,
Brock Ashby (00:37:01):
Hair and makeup. You're like, I'm so perfect, or what you think is great at that time. And then let's say a week later you've gained five kilos back and you're looking at yourself and you're going, man, I feel fat. But maybe a year ago that was extremely amazing. But just because you've competed before and got to that crazy level of leanness, 8% body fat, 5%, whatever it is now, anything but that is not good enough. So it's kind of like the leaner you get, the what you think would've fixed your insecurity has actually almost made it worse.
Anjuli Mack (00:37:34):
Yeah, I think that's relative to anyone even outside of competing, because if you help someone that's maybe they're 50 pounds overweight and you help 'em lose 30 pounds, which is amazing, they still in their head think, oh, well, I've still got 20 pounds to go until I achieve my goal, but I really try and focus, if I help a client lose 30 pounds or whatever, I'm like, you just lost 30 pounds. You have to really pause and think how amazing that is, considering the time that it takes someone to gain weight gain and then the effort that it takes to lose that weight again. It's such an incredible accomplishment to start living a healthier lifestyle, yet alone actually gain the physical results. So I think it is really important whether you are competing or not competing on a fitness journey to actually take time to pause and reflect on how far you've come.
(00:38:23):
And that's something I have to do too. I'm currently in a really good building muscle phase through lockdown. I'm feeling really good, and I'm definitely not the leanest I've been, but also what would be my point in trying to diet through a lockdown, there's no beaches near, I'm not out in the sun where I'm wearing a jumper is just, to me, there's no point. If I'm happy, I'm healthy and I'm strong, that's all that matters to me. And realistically, I think people put so much pressure on themselves to look a certain way, but no one actually cares. Your friends family, your partner aren't spending time with you because they love the size of your clothes or the weight on the scale. You don't go to catch up with your friends and they say, what weight are you today? Your partner doesn't. Okay,
Brock Ashby (00:39:10):
Yeah, I'll talk to you today.
Anjuli Mack (00:39:12):
Yeah, okay, I suppose we can be friends because you weighed under X, Y, Z way. No one actually caress. The person that cares the most about how you look is usually you. And the saddest thing is, is that we can always be a harshest critic. No one can say something to me that I probably haven't already said about myself in regards to my business, how I look, the things I do day by day. But I think it's about choosing the narrative that you say to yourself. I could look in the mirror and say things that I might necessarily maybe want to change, but at the end of the day, is that serving me? It's not. I would way rather focus on the good things. And I can think of just a classic example is in the past when I started working out, I thought my legs were really big.
(00:39:56):
I know women can relate to this because they want to build glutes, but they don't want to build their legs. And having thick thighs in the past used to be such a bad thing. Everyone wanted a gap between their thighs. And so of course, me being someone that had cycled everywhere, all through uni, all through high school, I didn't have a car at university. I was quite active, so my legs were naturally built quite a bit. I used to think, oh my gosh, my legs rub against each other. Oh, I don't look skinny like the girls on Instagram. But instead of following that narrative, I'm more like, you know what? My legs are so strong. I could score a hundred kilos. I could deadlift, I think at the time, like 125 kilos, and they get me everywhere I need to go. I bike, I walk, I run if I'm running late.
(00:40:39):
I just think there's so many other positive things people could focus on instead of looking on Instagram or bodybuilding.com or whatever, and comparing yourself to someone else that's stepped on stage for a one day, and you've just seen this highlight of them on stage. You don't know the effort that went into getting to that stage. And I think that's where people in social media and people that want to get into competing, they see this epitome of what they think might be healthy and they want to look like that because of these beautiful stage photos. And I love stage photos. I love stage date, but the work that went in behind that photo is just insane. The tears, the four 30 wake ups every day to work out running to the gym, I remember in the rain, and I remember walking home crying in the rain. I was so tired. It's a next level dedication, and I just love it. I love a grind in anything I do. I just think the harder I work for stuff, the better it feels when I achieve it. But that's definitely not a mentality for everyday healthy life.
Brock Ashby (00:41:40):
Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that comp prep lifestyle isn't necessarily for everyone a healthy lifestyle to maintain forever. You are literally probably having to turn down social events. Like you said, you're falling asleep on the couch, so your energy's obviously not amazing. You're a bit snappy in your dms. Maybe you're not getting the most out of your relationships or whatever, but it's not really for a lot of people, something that they can maintain and they have to, I think you've definitely developed this maturity through the things that you've gone through. Obviously, we wouldn't want to regret those things and say, I wish I didn't do that, because that has made you who you are. You've come to this mature place and you touched on Instagram girls and not being able to look like them, but you did say that you were strong and that you had these things that you could do, which I'm a huge fan of.
(00:42:38):
I'm not against anyone trying to hit a goal of getting lean or getting a beach body because that is a great place to start initially for people to make a change because we don't want to discourage anyone who's trying to make a positive change for whatever reason is maybe they want a better Tinder profile photo so they can go and date. I'm not going to say, no, you need to have a goal of being stronger, not looking better. Come back to me when you have a better goal, because that might be the only chance that may have taken them six months to pluck up the courage to go, okay, yeah, I want this Tinder profile photo to be sick. But that's one thing that I love is getting people to get these performance based goals over these aesthetic based goals. And I think that's a huge conversation that we're having now. It's more so about what we can do with our bodies as opposed to just what they look like. And what do you think has got you to this place? Because obviously when you looked at those Instagram girls, first off, maybe you kind of struggled with that and thought, okay, this is what supposedly I should look like according to society's measure. But what helped you kind of just go, well, I can do this.
Anjuli Mack (00:43:46):
Yeah, I think that, I love what you said about not discrediting anyone's goals. I think that it's fine to start your fitness journey for whatever you want. For me, it was stress relief. For someone else, it might just be, I saw someone on Instagram, I won't look like that. And I mean, that's fine, but I think it becomes more as you go on through your journey, it might've initially for someone they might've wanted to lose like 20, 30 pounds, but I had a call with one of my clients on the weekend, and her goal was originally to lose weight, but as she started on her fitness journey, her husband decided to start eating better, and then they were setting an example for their kids, and then they ended up enjoying eating better, doing their nighttime workouts together while the kids were asleep. And it became more about how she felt.
(00:44:30):
And some goals, after we've achieved all the fat loss ones, we're going to move into going into, what's the word, ultra marathon type thing. So she's changed her goal from just wanting to lose weight to more performance and endurance type goals, because she used to do a lot sports when she was younger. So I think that people will originally maybe start to change the way that they look, but eventually, once they realise how good it feels to feel good and to move their bodies and to get strong, they end up staying for that reason. And that's why I'm very big on weightlifting, especially with women. And another call with a client, and she was saying how she feels empowered when she gets stronger because she knows that she doesn't have to ask her partner or someone else to help her pick a box up. She can do it herself.
Brock Ashby (00:45:16):
I got the groceries.
Anjuli Mack (00:45:17):
Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Brock Ashby (00:45:18):
She don't worry about it. Yeah,
Anjuli Mack (00:45:21):
She was saying that I can carry the groceries and I don't have to have him carry them. And to me, I always take a lot of groceries. I pride myself on going one shop, you've got all the groceries on you, and that's good for me, but I didn't realise that because I've been lifting for a long time. That's just what I do. So for someone that's new, that kind of non-scale victory, getting really strong and focusing on those performance type goals is, I just think so important. If you're only starting your journey to change how you look, and you realise in the first week or two that you are just not going to get the results overnight, then you might quit. You would quit after two weeks of trying this new thing. And I think so many people these days just want that instant gratification where in the, I guess generation of Uber Eats where you order something, it's at your door in 10 minutes. You don't really have to do a lot for the things that we can get delivered or I guess bought to us as opposed to a fitness-based goal or feeling healthier or getting stronger. It's not something just that just happens overnight.
Brock Ashby (00:46:21):
Yeah, I think that's awesome, man. I think definitely with women, having that feeling of empowerment can lead to a lot of other things as well. I talk about a lot with my clients, the ripple effect. So that's what's happened a lot to me. And I don't know if that's the right term, I made it up, but maybe someone else said it as well. But it's like as soon as I got into training and I started pretty young, I was 14. It was something that I just did at lunchtime with my friends to have a laugh, and then we just ended up falling in love with it. And actually, my first goal was kind of just to get stronger for rugby. So I actually started in a good place, and then later on I kind of went down a wrong path of I want to look like this fitness, this model, and do whatever, eat some tilapia. So we started on that kind of lunchtime training and then we just loved it. Sorry, I forgot what I was talking about. What was I talking? You were talking
Anjuli Mack (00:47:18):
About how you started at the start and then you wanted to get stronger, and I had said how clients
Brock Ashby (00:47:24):
Ripple effect.
Anjuli Mack (00:47:25):
Ripple effect. Yes. Sorry,
Brock Ashby (00:47:26):
Sorry, sorry. I got completely lost. I touched on the other thing. So the ripple effect. So I started just training, but then I realised it, and even though I was at high school, I wasn't bad at school or anything, but I just kind of wanted to work that little bit harder. I just wanted to maybe show up on time and become more disciplined. So that really worked for me, and I found that with clients as well, and I'm sure you've experienced the same thing within your life and your clients' lives now that you train, you have to be more disciplined with your nutrition. So you're probably more disciplined with your time management because you've got to fit in a gym session. So when you're at work, you're at work, when you're with your friends, you present with your friends and all that kind of stuff. Has that happened? Have you had that experience with your clients and with yourself as well?
Anjuli Mack (00:48:12):
Yeah, I do think that there's a flow on effect. When you start taking care of yourself and prioritising yourself. It helps you become a better person in all areas of life. So if a mom comes to either of us and they want to start eating healthier so that they have more energy, it's like, okay, they start eating healthier, they start moving their body. So they get a boost of endorphins, they feel a bit happier, they start losing weight, they start putting their clothes better, so then they start feeling more confident. So then that enables them to, maybe they want to ask for a promotion at work, or maybe that helps improve their relationship because they feel more secure about themselves within the relationship with their husband or wife or whatever. So I definitely think that a fitness journey has such a flaw on effect to all areas of life.
(00:48:55):
And I can completely relate it back to say, when I gained a lot of weight in a short amount of time after my first competition, it was affecting my relationship with Ross because then I felt so insecure thinking he was going to leave me for someone else because this had happened. So it was affecting our relationship. I was crying pretty much every day. I was overeating pretty much every day, and it's still hard for me to think of that until the one day that I literally, I remember I have the photos on my phone, I shared them on Instagram stories today. I took these photos. I just woke up one morning, I said, you know what? Enough's enough. I hate how I feel and didn't have anything to do with how I looked, but I just felt so horrible on the insane, took this photo, and I'm smiling hard in the photo, but I remember how horrible I felt on the inside, and I was only smiling.
(00:49:41):
I was like, this is the last time I want to feel like this. So I took these day one photos and I committed to get a coach. I wanted to do a 12 week fat loss phase just to get myself feeling a little better. I think I lost, I ended up losing five kilos in 10 weeks, just being consistent, a little bit more flexible. And then I got to photo shoot, and it was my first ever lingerie kind of photo shoot for my birthday. Never done that before. It wasn't about being as lean as I could because I wasn't as lean as I was for my comp. It was just about feeling really good. I got my hair done, I got my makeup done. I put on a pretty dress dress. It was just a celebration for myself. So that was something to give me to look forward to for my birthday.
(00:50:23):
So someone else might pick to do a photo shoot. I gave her a prize winner for one of my challenges, a photo shoot with a local photographer in the USA. She went and she had this beautiful photo shoot in the forest with I think her partner and a dog. And it's just something to celebrate your hard work, whether that's buying a new sports bra, cute dress or something. So for me, it was just about turning things around and I guess just calling myself out on the actions that I was taking that were making me not feel so good. And then that effect of doing that photo shoot just float out to everywhere else. I felt confident I could then go on to learning more about nutrition and training to then go on to compete again and just have a better relationship with food. And then after all of that, be able to help other women, because I know what it's like to go through fat loss, weight gain after that and all the emotions that come with that, as well as the insecurities around that. So
Brock Ashby (00:51:22):
Yeah, I think on that, I can definitely relate to that kind of setting goals and having things like my training, like the principle of progressive overload. As soon as I kind of got used to it, I was like, okay, you make things harder and that's how you build a muscle. So you get growth. And now I have this mindset of even in life work, if you feel like work's a bit easy, how can we make it harder? The only way to get growth, and it just kind of has this, and maybe it's not healthy to be like, okay, I'm in a relationship with my fiance. How can I make this not harder? But yeah, progressive. Yeah, you don't have to have this obsessed mentality about it everywhere, but just the idea of things getting harder and that leading to growth I think is important. Even with studying, I made this role, I was talking about it with my fiance last night. I made this role that I have to be enrolled in a course always, because if I'm not enrolled, I'm not doing anything. I'm just kind of cruising, not being lazy, but I'm not being proactive, I'm not getting better. And I'm very like, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse in the middle. Does it really exist? I'm not really sure, but I think if you're not proactively going forward, you are kind of going backwards. And that's where I developed that from gym training.
Anjuli Mack (00:52:41):
Yeah, totally. I love that. I'm the same way as well, which is probably why we're friends. But yeah, so I do think that progression drives my overall happiness. I love progression and fitness and business and knowledge, whether that's learning about how to start up a new company or whether it's how to help my clients better or myself better in terms of training and things. I'm also enrolled in another course right now, and I'm always keen to learn. I'm always reading the newest research that I can so that I can be a better coach or a better person from a mindset point of view. And I do think it is really important for people to focus on progress. There's stats around people that leave high school that will never read another book in their life. I know not everyone likes to read. I think you like to have audio books, right?
Brock Ashby (00:53:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I kind of like a mix. There's different books. If it's say a motivational one, I'll just listen to it on the go. But if it's one where I just finished one about property, I'd take notes and stuff like that. I'm not going to just because yeah, it's different when you sit down and have a book.
Anjuli Mack (00:53:46):
Yes, but
Brock Ashby (00:53:47):
I definitely always reading,
Anjuli Mack (00:53:49):
So I love a hard book just because I can highlight and take notes and things like that. But I'm all for learning, and I think so many people when they finish high school or university, they just stop learning. And I think that then what do you do with your time? Do you just end up scrolling social media, fending your mind with a whole lot of rubbish and that applies to everything in life. I do think that in a relationship you want to be making sure that you're growing together with your friendships. You want to make sure that you are also growing together. You don't want to be, I guess just sitting around talking about other people is just not my kind of thing that I'm interested in. I'm all for growth in all areas of life, which is sometimes a good thing, sometimes a bad thing because sometimes it's quite full on up in my head.
Brock Ashby (00:54:36):
Yeah, no, for sure. I definitely find it hard to relax sometimes. I definitely come a long way, but with that, if you stop reading books after school, not saying that you have to read books because everyone learns in a different way and everyone has different, let's say, ambitions in life. But I definitely think that the stuff that I've learned after school has been the most valuable. I kind of don't really apply anything that I learned at school at the moment. I did physics, not really applying that except for the law of thermodynamics and biology, maybe some of that. But yeah, maths, English, all the stuff that I've done around personal training, learning biomechanics, learning about nutrition, all that kind of stuff. And I guess it's school is very general to open you up to different career paths. But if you are saying that, okay, my education is done after school, I think that's quite a dangerous place to be because you're not allowing yourself to even learn new things to maybe change, and I say this a lot, if you sleep eight hours, say you have 16 hours left out of those 16 hours, you might work somewhere between eight to 10.
(00:55:44):
Some people work even more, but that's a huge chunk of the amount of time that you're awake and the amount of time that you're actually on earth. So why would you want to do that or spend that time doing something that you don't enjoy? And it sounds super cheesy, just follow your passion. I'm not saying that trying to be a life coach and put my leadership hat on, but it really confuses me as to why people would commit literally most of their waking life to something that they don't want to do and spend most of their time thinking about what they're going to do outside of that. Oh, after work, or I want to go on a holiday, which holidays great. I love a holiday too. But if you are literally running from the thing that you're doing most in your life, I think that's a pretty dangerous position to be.
Anjuli Mack (00:56:31):
Yeah, definitely. I think it can be scary for people as well. For me personally, what I was doing is I went to university for accounting. I quickly learned that accounting was not for me. I did not enjoy it, but I thought it would bring me a lot of money, and that's honestly why I went into it. I just thought, right, accountants make lots of money, I'll do that. I got through my full four years. I graduated, I got my degree. I had an internship at one of the big four accounting firms, and I quickly realised within two weeks at the internship, that wasn't for me. I pushed through it, I finished it, and at the end of it, they even asked me, do you even want this? And I just said no. And I sat in a very polite way, but it just wasn't for me.
(00:57:12):
So then from then from there, I ended up travelling the world with Ross. We did the USA, we travelled a little bit. It gave me a little bit more time to think about what I wanted to do. I got a job working online from home for a supplement company. I helped them in customer service. It was a very basic role, but it enabled me to travel to fitness, exposed to learn how a big businesses I guess handled a lot and also connect with a lot of other people online in the fitness industry, which was really cool. And then when it came to me realising what I wanted to do, which was to help women, I actually ended up, I remember it was over three years ago now. I remember waking up in the morning to do work before doing my actual job. Then if that was held overtime, there were sales or things like that, I would then quickly eat dinner with Ross and then jump back on the computer and then he'd go to bed and then I'd go to bed after I'd finished the work.
(00:58:05):
And I did that for quite a few weeks or months or whatever. And I was really miserable. I was tired. It wasn't a very nice time. And Ross just said to me like, oh, you probably should have quit your job three months ago. I was like, oh, yeah, I probably should have. But I was just trying to be safe. And so I ended up giving him my resignation and then going full time with fit within Julianne. That was my passion. And honestly, I didn't care if I was going to take a pay cut to do that instead of doing something that I'd outgrown and I couldn't grow further and that I couldn't get more money or anything anyway. I'd rather take that step back down and do something that I absolutely loved every single day. And now I'm so grateful to be able to wake up and do that. So yeah, I do understand that it's not possible for everyone, but I do think that it's possible to maximise as much time as you can to do something on the side that you love that brings you joy. Even if you're not going to leave your full-time job, you could still start a little side hustle.
Brock Ashby (00:59:02):
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's where it all starts. That kind of all in mentality. I'm all about that. I posted about it I think a couple of weeks ago and people really resonated with it, and I think it can be risky. So I definitely think it's better or easier to say when you're younger because we have time to recollect ourselves and bounce back. If we go bankrupt, it's like, oh, well I don't have that much money anyway. But if you're 50 and you go all in and it fails, you're kind of like, whoa, that's going to hurt a bit more.
Anjuli Mack (00:59:36):
Definitely different. But I think that all in mentality is an interesting topic as well. If we relate it back to fitness, because it's like a lot of people start working with me, and the key habits I advise are things like water, sleep, movement and form of steps, their workouts and their nutrition. It's five key things, but a lot of people can have that all in mentality on their fitness journey in a negative way in that it's like, oh, no, I couldn't stick to my workout today because I hurt my toe. So that means I'm not going to stick my water. I'm not going to sleep. I'm not going to do my nutrition, I'm not going to anything else. So in all mentality, I actually hadn't seen your posts, so you might not agree with me, not sure, but I think an ALLIN mentality on certain things can be great.
(01:00:19):
But when it comes to a fitness journey, I think honestly people just need to start and focus on progress over perfection. Because if they start thinking, right, I really need to nail everything perfectly, you might be able to do it for a day or two, maybe even a week, but what happens on the one day that you're like, oh, no, I'm away today so I'm going to not be able to eat right. Does that mean you are not going to try and move your body, drink your water, get your sleep in? So on that aspect, I think an all in can be really dangerous. I think that anyone listening should really think about what their fitness goals are and how, you know what if you can't tick off all your habits, well, maybe you could tick off three out of five.
Brock Ashby (01:01:01):
Yeah, no, I totally agree with that in terms of fitness, because I think that is what leads to people doing things like we touched on earlier, carnivore diet, keto diet, sticking to it for two months, losing awesome five kg and then trying to reintroduce carbs and then just going crazy. Oh, I just binged all weekend and gained five kilos. So that two months of progress just went down the drain. I definitely think having that balanced approach with training and everything is important. I think having the all mentality in terms of giving your all in a session is great, but not having that, okay, I stuffed this up and this is where I was too when I was doing everything. I was like, okay, I had a bite of a burger. I'm done. I'm not training, I'm not reading. I'm just going to binge eat tonight.
(01:01:52):
I went through a crazy binge eating cycle as well when I was younger. So if anything set me off, if I missed the training session because I had to work on anything, I was like, well, I didn't train. What's the point of following nutrition? I'm going to Maccas, so I'm going to go to Maccas. I'm going to get some butter chicken. I'm going to eat everything I can see, and then tomorrow I'm going to start clean. I'm going to have boiled eggs, I'm going to have a protein check. I'm going to train twice because I missed the session, so I need to make it up. And that kind of went. So in terms of fitness, I a hundred percent agree with you, but this mentality I was talking on was more so about work, how you were talking about or backing yourself. So backing, yes, being all in that way.
(01:02:32):
So you were a hundred percent all in, you were doing a side hustle, you were doing your normal work, and then you'd have dinner and then you'd continue to work. So I kind of shared, yeah, so when I first came to Sydney, I was like, a hundred percent I'm giving up music. I'm going to do pt, because I was still doing PT and music while I was in Gold Coast and Auckland. I was doing other stuff as well. So I was like, okay, Sydney, I'm going to do it. So I just did PT and I was living with my auntie for a bit, and then I was like, I had an interview with, as soon as I gave up music, I had a breakdown, whatever. Most of my life changing moments come on the back of a breakdown. I break down, cry my eyes out, whatever, and then I'm like, okay, let's go.
(01:03:19):
We've cried it off. We've had a good sleep. So I called 10 gyms in one day. I was like, I want an interview. I'm a new pt, I'm here, blah, blah. And after two days, I had a job at Fitness First and I was like, okay, I'm really going to do this. So I was living out west, out in the suburbs in Sydney with my auntie, and I'm so thankful that they had me for the amount of time when I was of figuring out what I wanted to do, I moved into the city. I paid the franchisee to be a personal trainer at the gym, so that was two and a half grand. I was like, whoa, where did I sign up for this? And then I moved into a place, so I paid a bond and I think I only had $2,000, which sounds like a lot, but in Sydney that's not very much, especially when you're at a gym paying $400 a week rent, that's only five weeks, and then you've got to pay your home rent, which was like, so I had 750 a week going out before I bought any food.
(01:04:11):
So that was literally two weeks I had planned. So in terms of this all in mentality, I was like, no, I'm going all in. So I backed myself and that kind of gave me the pressure to really stick to things. So I was like, I walked the gym floor from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM so I went down this franchisee path, so you can be an employee or you can be a franchisee, so kind of self-employed. So employee, you get paid 25 an hour or 20 an hour and you do classes, but I'm not a huge group classes fan. I was like, man, that's going to tie me out and I'm going to be the worst coach ever. I went this other route where they give you you pay rent, which was 400 a week, and I was scared of that. I was like, whoa, don't know anyone in Sydney.
(01:04:57):
I didn't know anyone at the gym. I was like, I'm just going to go all in. And I worked from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM on the gym floor just talking to people, just saying hi, just acting busy. I had zero clients. I was like, okay, I've got all week literally committing 6:00 AM until 9:00 PM Monday to Friday. I was like, I'm just going to walk the gym and just talk to people, see if I can help. If I can't, I'm going to train and be there. I'm going to learn from the best bts. And I had this kind of mindset that was really driving me, but I wasn't making any money because I had no clients, so you don't just get paid. So I was washing dishes as well. So 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM Monday to Friday, I would walk the gym floor, try to build clients, do whatever I could.
(01:05:36):
And then after that Friday night, I would go and wash dishes at a hotel, and then I did it on Saturday. I would wash dishes out in Parramatta, which was fire out from the city, and I would do dishes in the morning, and then I'd go to a different hotel at night and then wash dishes on Saturday night, and then I'd do the same on Sunday at the same places, and then I'd finish at midnight on Sunday and washing dishes, go home at one o'clock and then wake up at four o'clock to walk the gym floor and kind of start my week again. So I was like, that all in mentality was like, that's kind of what I was talking about. That is what drove me. Well, I was broke, so I had nothing to lose, but I was like, that really pushed me. And I can understand in a fitness context that can be too much, like it's pushing you too much where you can break down.
(01:06:21):
I had many days where I was breaking down, crying, no sleep. I was like, what am I doing with my life? I'm pretending I'm this trainer, but I'm paying all this money. It's not going to, and you doubt yourself and stuff. But that was actually what got me through. And then that gave me that work ethic where I was like, okay, I'm going to work. And then I quit the dishes and I just had clients, and then I kind of started building off that, but that was the kind of all in mentality that I was talking about. Yeah, agree with you in fitness.
Anjuli Mack (01:06:51):
Yeah, definitely. I guess it really comes down to a few different things. You could do that, and I don't think that we grow in our comfort zone. So you leaving to Sydney and doing that, you really put yourself out of your comfort zone and you had no other option but to succeed. And they say, if you want to, I can't quite remember the quotes, I'm probably going to ruin it here, but they say, if you don't want to leave the island or something, burn the boat or whatever the quote is.
Brock Ashby (01:07:18):
I recently wrote an email on that.
Anjuli Mack (01:07:20):
Oh, did you? Oh, maybe I the email
Brock Ashby (01:07:22):
List. Yeah, if you want the island burn the boat. It's something like that.
Anjuli Mack (01:07:25):
Something like that. Yeah. And then also I guess it really comes down to people, again, recognising what is most important to them. And like you said, when you're younger, you can take those bigger risks as well. So I guess for me personally, I always think of it as any setbacks that you have if you have a breakdown. I always love the quote, setbacks make for greater comebacks. I've had lots of little setbacks on my fitness journey, but the thing that has set me aside from other people that might not achieve their goals or haven't yet achieved their goals is that I haven't quit. Every time I fall down, I get back up. If I compete and maybe I play second, I come back again. If I place third, I'll come back again. And not that it's about the placings, it's about bettering myself each time.
(01:08:09):
And if I was relying on a placing to tell me that I was good enough, then good enough, I just stopped competing because my last show in the best condition of my life, it came seventh. So I can still acknowledge that I worked so hard for that show and I looked absolutely amazing, and I loved everything about how I looked, and I'm so proud of that. I think that people can be proud of their journey at all different stages, even if you haven't reached the end goal, and I mean you to go from washing dishes and doing that to even just having some clients is still a win. And now you've transitioned into fully online, which was perfect with everything that happened in the world and gyms closing down for so long. So yeah,
Brock Ashby (01:08:51):
On that lockdown, we've had our fair share amount of lockdowns. I think we just came out of 16 weeks. But you are still in lockdown. You are still fully locked in, right?
Anjuli Mack (01:09:06):
Oh, we are getting close to the 16 week mark. I think in Auckland New Zealand. We're in 14 weeks so far. And I mean, there's two different ways to look at lockdown. For some people, I think they might think that it is a time to just chill out. It's a time to not worry about their goals, and it's the all in thing here of like, oh, well, I can't go to the gym, so I may as well do nothing. Or you could see it as the way that I did. For example, last year, six weeks out for my competition, I said my show was cancelled. And I thought, okay, six weeks out, I'm in great shape right now. I was absolutely so ready to step on stage mentally and physically, but I thought, okay, well what can I do with this time? I'm going to show everyone that it's possible to stay on track during lockdown, and that was my goal.
(01:09:50):
I just wanted to inspire people to stay on track during this time. So I ended up reverse dieting. I spent the whole time reverse dieting, I think, and I ended up getting to 2,300 calories and maintaining the exact same weight as I started in lockdown. And I'm not going to lie, I was pretty proud of that. That's awesome. Because it was our first year of lockdown and then this year going into it, it came out of nowhere. I didn't expect to go into another one. I thought maybe it was going to be three days. It's ended up being over three months, and we luckily were able to get easy bar of 55 kilos of weight plates, including the bar and a couple of 20 kilo dumbbells. So it's enough to get a good workout in. Is it my favourite style of workout to workout at home with minimal equipment?
(01:10:38):
No, but I haven't missed a single workout. I've hit six workouts a week. The whole lockdown, I mainly added in a six month because I'm not getting in enough heavy weight volume across the week. So I thought, okay, I'll add in an extra session. There's only so many exercises I can do for upper body with the equipment. So progression wise, I've still made sure that I'm progressing throughout and I've still been hitting my walks every morning, every day before lunch, we go for a walk. I even go for a third walk in the afternoon usually, and I've just shown up for myself. And I think that it's really important for people to realise that there's always two different options when it comes to situations, and it's like the easy route or a more challenging route that's probably going to improve you. And so I chose to take the route of not letting lockdown take away more than it already has from the past two years.
Brock Ashby (01:11:33):
Yeah, I definitely did the same thing with my mindset, and I do agree with you. It kind of divided the world. Okay. Some people are like, okay, this is unfortunate, but I'm just going to make the most of it. And some people are like, well, I'm just going to ride it out and just cruise and I'll probably work, but probably not. I'll just sleep in and I'll probably just stop working out because the gyms are closed and I'll get back into it, which is fine, either way you want to go. But yeah, I definitely locked in. I was like, okay, I'm going to, because man, the lockdown before this recent lockdown, I didn't have any equipment at all, so I was like, Mr. Resistance band, I was using Kiki as weights. I was holding her and lunging. I was like, yeah, trying to do all these kinds of things and trying to make up exercises that I could actually get into a workout.
(01:12:22):
So this time I ordered some dumbbells. As soon as it happened, adjustable dumbbells and a bench and some new resistance bands, they were going to break. They looked so shaggy. So I really locked in that as well, and I was like, work-wise, I'm still going to continue to show up. And that's when I had a big, well, lots of people were on their phones at the time, and maybe this happened across the board, but I had a really big growth in my following. I was like, okay, I'm going to post twice a day instead of just doing whatever. So I was like, I really doubled down. But training was difficult. I was saying before we got on this call, because in the house we were in previous to this, the kitchen and the lounge was the same thing. The door that we would use for lat pull downs or for straight arms or triceps or whatever was the door beside the fridge.
(01:13:11):
So if Kiki was cooking dinner, I couldn't do lats or I'd be like, can you jump out for 30 seconds while I get in my pull downs and then you can come back in while I rest and do something else. But what have you been doing to stay sane during lockdown to look after all aspects of your life? Because you've been walking, you've been training. You said you've really had that mindset of I'm going to do this, but it does take its toll. I won't lie. At the end of the lockdown, I was probably, I didn't really notice it, but I think I was just a bit less happy than I was or a bit less optimistic. I was a bit like, oh, I'm ready for this to be over. My brother had a daughter and we couldn't see my fiance's family, and I was just like, man, this is ready to be done. What are you doing to look after yourself?
Anjuli Mack (01:13:58):
That's tough and it's good that you can say that you were feeling less happy. I think especially men struggle to open up about feelings and stuff, and they think mine comes and goes and waves. At the start, I was like, oh yeah, home workout. You're like, yeah, I'm going to slay these homework out. And then it dipped a little bit and I really dipped hard in the middle of this lockdown. It hit me hard because I had a lot of other stuff happening, and I think it really depends on other people's family situations. If someone's had a baby or someone's passed away or whatever it is, it can really hit people hard if they can't get to see their family. I had luckily just been to see my mom and my dad the week before the lockdown for my dad's birthday, so I'm so glad I did that.
(01:14:41):
Nice. Otherwise, it would've been far too long without seeing them. But I really had to make sure that I limited my time on my phone. So that means turning my phone off at a certain time at night, making sure that I'm doing something like we said, reading or doing a new course. So I'm always learning. So I start reading the Glute lab or whatever brick I sign up for nutrition course, just to recap on stuff and learn about the newest research. I got a new book to read. I got a colouring in book. I got some colouring in pencils, which I do each night, so we'll have Netflix on and I might not necessarily be watching. I'll just listen and colour in, and that's quite creative for me. And just a little bit calming for me. I just really tried to focus on routine. So we wake up at the same time every day because in the last lockdown, I found that I started towards the end, started sleeping in, and I started slacking on wanting to work out. And I know that as you get sadder and things, sometimes you want to sleep more because I wasn't looking forward to the days ahead. So now I still wake up at four 30 every morning. I make
Brock Ashby (01:15:46):
Sure that is so early, by the way, I have to jump in there. I look at your story, I'm like, what is she doing awake at four 30? That's crazy.
Anjuli Mack (01:15:54):
And I don't even post on my phone until a little bit, and I try not to post until later on. So I'm already been awake usually for an hour before I posted all my
Brock Ashby (01:16:03):
Stories. You guys, I'm having lunch. It's 6:00 AM
Anjuli Mack (01:16:08):
Pretty much. But yeah, I do think it's super important to find little joys and to really focus on the controllables in lockdown because there's so many ways in which I could look at these past 18 months and I turn 28 next Monday. I'm getting older, and I just think, man, the past 18 months I feel have really been taken away in terms of I'm used to being able to travel. I'm used to being able to pop over to Bondi and have a little week of sunshine and seeing friends and training with you. But yeah, instead of focusing on all the downsides to lockdown, I've just really focused on the things I'm grateful for Ross and I lucky I have a roof over our head. And to have enough room to share one desk working together and to not luxury be locked and not be locked in a flat with four different people that we can't stand.
(01:17:05):
At least we have our own space for it. So I mean, things could always be worse. And that's kind of the perspective I have around a lot of things. I think what you focus on usually grows, so if you focus on only negative things in your life, the negative things seem to get a lot bigger and you seem to attract a lot more of them. So like you did with doubling down on business, I doubled down. I've had calls with my clients, I do monthly coaching calls. I did a challenge for the girls to help them get through lockdown, just anything to help inspire others to get through the tough times. It just helps, I guess, inspire me seeing some of the challenge results for your clients as well. You'd know, it's just so rewarding and that brings me joy in lockdown, so I just do what I can.
Brock Ashby (01:17:52):
Yeah, actually, I was with our wedding celebrant yesterday. Kiki and I made a trip. We're getting married early next year, and we were talking, she was talking about the memories that we've had together. She was trying to get to know us, our stories, and all the stories were building up, building up, building up, and then it was like lockdown head and it was like, oh, I guess for 18 months it was a bit, yeah, it was like, man, we've literally, I totally agree with you with the, it's kind of been swept underneath us. We went on the holiday of our life with my dad and Jamal to Whit Sundays just before it happened. And we went skydiving. We went snorkelling with fish, we went to all these beaches, took Kiki to her first waterfall. We did all these awesome things. It was so fun. We flew over the Great Barrier Reef and we have these unforgettable memories.
(01:18:47):
And then it was like lockdown hidden, and I was like, whoa, man. It's like, what do we do now? We started playing board games, monopoly deals coming out, but it's not the same. And it's definitely an interesting time, but you really have to have that mindset of making the most of it, because as positive as we can be, it's not the same. Well, for me, it's not the same as going to Whits Sundays. It's definitely not these memories that we have. We were fortunate enough in between Lockdowns, we had a small gap. We flew to New Zealand and we went to Blenheim where your parents are from. That's where my family's from too. So we went there and I was showing around New Zealand, and then we flew back. But literally if we didn't fly back, I think the next day or two days later, it was lockdown hard. We wouldn't have left the country. It's really put, even with wedding planning, which has, we're both going, yeah, which both doing, which is already a task in itself. It's like we've had to reschedule once, but it's like we heard from our celebrant that it had been the seventh time that they'd rescheduled the one that she did the other day. It's a really uncertain time, but you have to have that mindset of trying to just be okay with what's happening and do your best control the controllables, like you were saying.
Anjuli Mack (01:20:03):
I think uncertainty for me is a really big thing because I'm a planner. I'm the kind of person that at 15 was like, this is going to happen at this time, this time, this time, this time quickly learned. Like my mom said, you can't plan your life out like that. I'm far behind in that plan of schedule. But then again, I set up my new goals as I got older, and Ross and I got engaged in Maui 2019, in May, 2019 was hands down one of the best years of my life, if not the best, in terms of we got engaged. I competed twice. I took him to Tonga for his birthday. Again, the island swing at the fish. We also booked a spontaneous trip to Chicago. It was on sale. And I remember saying to Ross, I remember that we'll never regret going to Chicago on sale.
(01:20:54):
And I'm so glad that we booked that night and went, because we did Chicago, Philadelphia and Washington. His dream city bucket list city was Chicago. And we got to go there. And if we hadn't done that trip, we wouldn't be going for however many years and we're only getting married next year in May in Tonga, three years after our engagement. And I planned to compete last year. I couldn't do that. And I want to be done competing by a certain age before I want to focus on other things in life. So I do feel like lockdown has already taken away so much from people. And for someone like me that loves to plan in advance, I don't even know if I can get to Australia next year for certain things without being able to go into a lockdown, like a quarantine hotel when I come back. So I love to plan things. I love to be able to travel. I love the freedom of it. And so for me, I just have to focus on all the other exciting things that Russ and I will have in the new year, such as getting married. And I'm sure that will go ahead. So fingers, it's crossed.
Brock Ashby (01:21:53):
Yeah, hopefully we're not rescheduling seven times in a row. So on that note, I know I've stolen heaps of your time. I didn't actually know how long this was going to take, but this is, I think we're coming up to an hour and a half. We could talk
Anjuli Mack (01:22:06):
All day though. Yeah, we could. If anyone wants a Brock on my podcast, I definitely thinks that that's going to happen as well.
Brock Ashby (01:22:14):
Yeah, no, I'm excited for that. But on the exciting things that you want to happen, what's coming up for you? What are you focusing on? What are you working on
Anjuli Mack (01:22:23):
Getting through lockdown
Brock Ashby (01:22:27):
The next week?
Anjuli Mack (01:22:29):
It's my birthday, like I said, next week. So I'm looking forward to a nice weekend with Ross. But otherwise I'm doing some other qualifications, just always trying to learn, getting out of Auckland. We are moving out of the city, spending time with family and things like that. Business wise, I'm on the fitness front. I'm working on some new exciting things for the new year of course, or the typical New Year challenge type vibes. Just better myself. So yeah, I honestly just want to get through this lockdown and enjoy my birthday and Christmas with family. So yeah.
Brock Ashby (01:23:03):
So how can people find you
Anjuli Mack (01:23:06):
Social channels, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. You can go to fit within julie.com for coaching, and then it's pretty much just, and Julie Fit for Life on Everywhere really. Or and Julie Mac on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube, and the podcast, which is a fit for life with Ann Julie, and I'll probably have Brock on that next month.
Brock Ashby (01:23:27):
Awesome. Yeah. I see you're up to about 50 episodes. I actually listened to your most recent episode this morning. What's she doing?
Anjuli Mack (01:23:35):
Yes. Awesome. Thank you.
Brock Ashby (01:23:37):
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast and yeah, I'll talk to you on your podcast soon.
Brock Ashby (00:00:00):
What's up team? This is Brock Ashby here, and welcome to the first episode of The Better with Brock podcast. I called this better with Brock because I want to share my thoughts, my past, my experience, my strategies, my methods in hope that you will learn from them and become better in any way. It could help you stick to your diet better. It could help you stick to your training better. It could help you live a better life. It could make you laugh, it could make you hopefully in some way better. So that is why I have created this channel. And I also wanted to give some context behind the stuff that I already talk about, but with the podcast, we have time to sit down and really break things down and give things some context and give things some background and tell some stories that you can't in captions on social media.
(00:00:53):
So in this first episode, I wanted to break down my personal body transformation journey or my story, and I've posted it a lot. I've come from being 69 kg, which is really light for me. I'm six foot and I had a 28 centimetre waist, which is, I've never been like that before. I was just really lean, really small. And now I'm sitting at 90, 92 kg, and I've talked about that many times. I was undereating, I was over restricting myself. I was training too much, I was stressing my body too much. I wasn't sleeping enough. There was a lot of bad things that got me down to that weight. And I want to talk about those experiences and we'll get to that in a minute. But before I talk about that, I want to actually talk about, before I got down to 69 kg, I actually started at a similar weight to I am now 88 kg, so just four kgs under where I am.
(00:01:55):
And that was kind of where I naturally sat. I've always been a super active, super sporty kid. I played six sports, I played rugby league, played rugby, played volleyball, played softball. I did athletics, I played touch, I missed out a couple of things, but I've always been super active and I've always just kind of had this metabolism that's very fast, like a heart gainer. My mom would always say that I had worms because I kind of ate the most in the family, but I was the skinniest. My mom used to call me skinny Binny as well. My dad used to call me monkey. I had this very small frame, but I was very active and that's just how I was. So I ended up putting on a bit of weight, getting up to that 88 kg weight through high school because I started getting into lifting.
(00:02:50):
So when you're playing sport, when you're younger, you don't really lift. You don't really, you just practise. You practise, you play tournaments, you play. But the high school that I went to that I was fortunate enough to go to was Christchurch Boys High School. And they were a massive rugby school. So a lot of all Blacks came out of there. Reuben Thorn came out of there. Daniel Carter did some time there, and there's others that I've forgotten, but it was a very big rugby school. So getting into the gym, they always encouraged that. And one lunchtime I went in and the membership was only $5 a week. So I signed up and at Lunchtimes, I just started going to the gym. I started hitting the gym. I had no idea what I was doing. I'd seen some stuff from just peeping through the gym and looking at the big guy's left weights.
(00:03:49):
So when I was first signing up, I looked at the personal trainer, his name was Martin Stokes, and he was huge, massive traps, massive calves, big chest, big arms. It was kind of like one of the first times you can look at someone that's a personal trainer, you go like, man, I want to be like him. So I was like, man, write me a programme so that I can get big. So he put this programme together and I started following it and immediately I fell in love with weight training. And I dunno what it was. I think it was just the ability to get stronger and feel stronger and really apply myself to something and see progress. I've always been really hooked on making progress. And that's one thing that I encourage today is to get people thinking about when they're trying to hit goals, that it's not just about looking good.
(00:04:41):
Okay, I know that can be a big driver for people looking good, feeling good, feeling sexy with your clothes off or feeling hot at the beach, looking great in your bikini, looking great in your board shorts. But there's a point where that really doesn't feel good enough once you get there, then what? What do you do? And that's where a lot of people struggle to stay motivated once they get there. So actually going into the gym or going into a workout programme and being like, I'm going to get stronger. I'm going to use my body for what it was designed to do to move and make progress. That's a really good goal. And that's kind of what I had straight away. I didn't really want to, being a naturally lean kid, being overweight was never really my problem. It was more so holding weight on and building muscle. So I started seeing progress and from 14, I just started pretty much training every day. I was just hooked on it. I remember learning this exercise first. It was called the Dumbbell Arnold.
(00:05:52):
The Arnold Curl. So you would bicep curl up the dumbbells, and then once you bicep curled up to your shoulders, you would push it overhead and then come back down. So you'd do an Arnold press from the top, but before that you would do a bicep curl. And I remember just doing that every day. And my goal was to get up to 20 kg weights, which I did probably with terrible form. I still did not have good form or any sort of insight, but I was just kind of hooked on progress and kind of getting really strong. So throughout high school, I just kind of keep doing that. And my mates got into it, me huddle, Eugene, Kaylee, Rob, we were hit the gym super often, most lunchtime. And it was cool. We would hang out, we would laugh, we would lift. And once again, sure, we were hoping that our arms would get bigger and chest and stuff wasn't really that focused on legs to be honest.
(00:06:46):
And there was always that, but it was more so just about having fun and lifting and getting stronger and ultimately seeing progress in our physiques and what we could achieve. So that became a real solid habit. And then I remember in year 13 at the same school, Christchurch Boys High School, we would get study periods if we wanted to. So you could fill your schedule up with classes or you could take a study period to study for other classes. So I took that, but instead of studying, I would hit the gym. So people would be studying English, people would be studying maths or studying science or whatever in their study period. And I would get changed, sneak off to the gym and get into a session. And I guess that's when I started realising, okay, I think this is just a bit more than a bit of fun.
(00:07:44):
This is what I really like doing. And regardless of my form, which probably was average and what I was doing, I guess it was a sign that I was going to do something with lifting. So that's how I kind of got up to 87.5 kg. I definitely got built muscle mass. I was still playing sports, I was still training, it was helping out rugby, helping me help throw the other guys around. Even though I was playing fullback, I didn't really have too much contact. I definitely felt stronger. So I got up to that weight throughout high school and then I finished it, and then I kind of backed off sport a little bit after I finished high school and I started pursuing music. This is kind of where the 180 degree turn for me was because as soon as I started getting into music, and you may know I was on The Voice Australia, I've posted about that before.
(00:08:46):
I was actually back in New Zealand, I was on X Factor with a boy band called Morehouse. So this was kind of just when I started getting into music before we made the boy band, and I started kind of looking at musicians that I aspired to be like, because I went to jazz school, I studied guitar, I kind of dropped all sport and just continued training. I still loved lifting, but I was getting into music a lot, getting into music a tonne. So I was looking at people, Justin Bieber, one direction, these pop stars, ed Shean, and looking at them and going, man, I look pretty different to them. I looked like a rugby player. I was playing rugby. And that's when I kind of thought, and then we formed the Boy band Morehouse, and we went on X Factor. And I started and I thought to myself, I think I'm going to have to look different if I want to try and pursue this seriously full on as a career.
(00:09:56):
Because when I do something like many people, when I do something, I just apply myself to it 100%. I was like, I want to be the best. I want to do what I can to get the best result and make this a career and all this kind of stuff. So I threw myself in the deep end. I was like, man, I got to get lean because there's no, well, to my knowledge at the time, I was like, there's no real pop stars that are buff or look like a league player or a rugby player. So I started trying to do my own research and trying out things. And the first thing that I tried, and this is where my mindset shifted to just getting stronger and seeing what my body could do to actually looking different and dropping body fat. I had no idea what a calorie deficit was.
(00:10:43):
So I was like, okay. So I was like, I'll do one meal a day that's got to work. I'll eat clean and I'll eat one meal a day. So I lost weight really quick, and I thought, man, this is working. I'm getting lean. Little did I know that, man. I was angry all the time. I was moody. I was hungry all the time. I was fixated by what I was going to have the next meal, and I was only having one meal a day. But I was literally thinking a day forward, like, okay, man, I'm going to have this. I'm going to have some brown rice. I'm going to have heaps of salmon, I'm going to have green vegetables, and I would have one meal a day. And while I was studying at jazz school and rehearsing to be in Morehouse and perform, and just before we did X factor in New Zealand, I was really lean. And that's where I dropped a significant amount of weight when I started at 87.5. And the first YouTube video that we put up where we sang titanium as a cover, that actually got us found by Sony New Zealand, which led to us doing
(00:11:53):
X factor and getting signed later on.
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That first video that I did, I was still at that aboriginal
(00:12:00):
Weight. And then as the videos as we kept uploading frequently, frequently, frequently, I got leaner and
(00:12:06):
Leaner and leaner and
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Leaner because I was having this one meal a day. And I was like,
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One of the other guys was doing it in the band too. So we were doing it together and we thought we will look like one direction because we were a boy band. So maybe that
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Will help us look more international and look a bit less like we're just some
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Rugby boys from New Zealand. So yeah, I dropped a lot of weight doing that. I was just eating chicken breast, super clean,
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Lean protein rice,
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And that's when I kind of just stopped eating bad food. So I had this
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Good food,
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Bad food mentality where I just
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Stopped. I thought
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Carbohydrates were bad, but I thought brown rice was okay because brown rice was a healthy
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Food. It was a good food.
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So I stopped eating all carbs. I
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Even stopped eating fruit. I thought that fruit was bad for you because of fructose. I was reading stuff online. I would go on simply shredded.com,
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I would go
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On the bodybuilding.com forums and I would just read
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Whatever. And I read interviews of fitness models like Ulysses Lazar, Angela, Jeff Seed, these guys that were just jacked and lean as, and even though that wasn't really the goal, I was
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Just looking for advice to get lean because obviously they were lean. Little
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Did I know that most of the fitness models that were actually writing those articles were on anabolic steroids. But whatever. I was looking at this
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Stuff, I was trying to follow their
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Meal plans or their food. They
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Were having extinct fish, steamed
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Broccoli, and I was eating it,
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And I was having one meal a day. I was fixated on food, and I was just, to be honest, I was still playing touch at the
(00:13:53):
Time and I was playing at a
(00:13:55):
Representative level. I was playing for the Canterbury men's team,
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And we were training, and I just had no energy. I would struggle at training, and I was already the youngest in the team.
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It was open men's team.
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So they were like 30, 35, 25, and here's me 18,
(00:14:12):
19, trying to play with
(00:14:13):
The best men's
(00:14:14):
Team in New Zealand,
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Or one of the best men's team in New Zealand. And I would have my meal
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Before training,
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And then I wouldn't have food for
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The rest of the day. So if we trained at let's say three o'clock, I would have my meal at two.
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So my energy was okay, I had
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Food,
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But it just wasn't good. So that was my experience. I thought that one meal a day was intermittent fasting. So I'd have all
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This benefits, I'd drop extra body if I had my human growth hormone
(00:14:40):
Would go through the roof. But little did I know I was just creating an extreme calorie deficit.
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I was having one meal a day that was
(00:14:47):
Probably 800 calories at best. It was super clean, super lean. So that was my first attempt to drop weight. And I did drop a lot of weight through that. And then I stumbled across the one milli day thing was really hard. And then I guess I'm kind of fast forwarding in time a little bit. I was still in the band, but I'd moved to Auckland, so I was living on my own at this time. I was still in the band and we were doing gigs and stuff together, so still full-time, music, really pushing it, still training as well. And I stumbled across something called the Warrior Diet. And the Warrior Diet is a diet where you, it's still intermittent fasting, it's one of the protocols. So I was super aware of the 16, eight protocols. So fasting for 16 hours, eating for eight hours. But I was like, nah, that's not extreme enough.
(00:15:44):
That's not for serious people, that's not, that's going to get you results, mate. You need to be extreme. I have one meal a day, and that's how I got lean. So I found that one meal per day was a bit full on for me. After a while, I stuck to it for a very long time, for months, and I was still training every day, rehearsing every day for the band because I was still a part of the band and very committed, very active as well. And I was like, man, I can't sustain this forever. So I was like, I'll try the Warrior Diet where it's fasting 20 hours eating four. So it's still kind of like one meal a day, but I've probably got a couple more hours to eat. I remember when I was doing the Warrior Diet, I was working in retail as well, I was working for a company called Haass where they sell Jans in New Zealand, we call 'em Jandals in Australia, they call 'em thongs in America, I think they call them flip flops.
(00:16:49):
But anyway, I was selling jandals. I'm going to say Jans because I'm a kiwi, so I was selling jandals, but my energy was just so, so low. I was only eating for four hours a day. So for the entire work time when people would walk to be served by me, I was the guy in there. I just felt like not talking to them. So I would literally do my best to avoid customers walking in. That's how much my nutrition was affecting me. And I was like, nah, Brock, you're just dedicated. You're disciplined. This is part of the process. And little did I know, I was just whittling away. I'm sure I was losing all that muscle mass that I built in high school, going to the gym at when I was 87.5 and still eating a lot at that time. Back in high school, I had no idea about nutrition.
(00:17:42):
And since I was just about getting stronger, I was eating all the time. I'd have six to eight wee picks in the morning with and sugar on it. And then I'd go to school and eat strudels. I would eat cans of creamed rice, I'd eat sandwiches, I'd eat fruit, and then I'd get home and I'd put these lasagna toppers from the freezer. I would heat them up and put garlic bread on the bread and then have a lasagna topper like the frozen crumbed ones and bread. So I'd have two lasagna toppers, four pieces of bread with garlic bread. I'd have that after school, and then I'd have dinner, and then I'd have dessert. Me and my brother used to sit there and put ice cream in a bowl and put corn flakes in it or rice bubbles and chop it up for age, just stir it round and then have that.
(00:18:28):
And I loved it. I loved it. And I guess I lost all of that joy when I started having one meal a day. And so kind of fast forward to where I was now. I was just so exhausted at work and I was trying to avoid people when people were walking in. I was literally just trying to hide in the corner, and I was trying to just read on the iPad what we use to take the sales. And I was just always reading about intermittent fasting or I was reading about food, I was reading about training. I was reading these interviews on simply shredded.com, and I was trying to see how I could improve in some way. My diet could be better, my training could be better, but it was never in those four hours eating, so I would not eat all day at work.
(00:19:18):
So they would say, take a lunch break. And I'd be like, I don't want to take a lunch break. I'm not going to eat. So I'll just work through it and then I'll finish early. And they didn't want me to finish early, then I had to close the store. So I would just work an extra hour of the day and then I would train, and then I would eat my meal after that and start my four hour eating window. So I would train at about 5:00 PM until seven. So say I woke up at 6:00 AM which I was doing many of the days, I wasn't eating until about 7:00 PM that next day.
(00:19:50):
Right now, I can't even imagine doing that. I wasn't eating for 12 hours. And then I would train on top of that. And my training, trust me, was not good. I was so exhausted. But I would push, I would push, I would push. I'd be like, bro, this is what men are made of. Are you a man or a mouse type of thing. And I was just pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. Little did I know that I just wasn't fueling myself enough for what I was doing. I was on my feet all day working at Aviana, then I was trained, then I would train, and then I would come home at 7:00 PM I would just try and stuff myself as much as possible. I was like eating 500 grammes of mints. I would have a whole cabbage. I was still eating really lean.
(00:20:38):
I was trying to eat lean, but I was like, I learned, okay, protein's important. So I'd have 500 grammes of beef or something and a whole cabbage and some broccoli and some pumpkin because pumpkin was low in calories. I still remember pumpkin is 30 calories per cup. I ingrained that into my soul because I ate so much of it. And then I thought at one time I was getting cancer because my hands were going orange, but it's just because I was eating a lot of pumpkin and carrots that my hands were going orange. But I was literally sometimes during the day, I was thinking, man, I've got cancer. I need to see a doctor. So even carrots, I was like, it's 52 calories per cup. I just learned all of them. Cabbage was 22 calories per cup. Broccoli is 33, spinach is seven. And I learned all these numbers because I was eating, I was trying to find the lowest calorie foods for the highest amounts of fibre and nutrient dense foods.
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And I was just trying to squeeze that all into one meal. And I'd have a can of chickpeas, a can of red kidney beans, and I'd be having this all in one meal after I trained. So my stomach was so full after every time I ate when I was on this warrior diet. So I was having heaps of meat, heaps of vegetables, and then I might eat some fruit. And I was literally stuffed because when you don't eat all day and then you try and eat all this food, it's quite hard to digest. And after that, I just wanted to sleep. So I would just eat or stuff myself and just kind of lay in bed like, whoa, man, I'm stuffed. And then after that one meal, even though it was a lot of food, the calorie still weren't very high because it was just a lot of vegetables and stuff.
(00:22:25):
So I would wait a little bit, a couple hours. And then even though I wasn't really hungry, I'd try force myself to eat some more. So I would eat some eggs. I'd have a protein shake because I was all about hitting protein. And then I would generally go to bed and wake up the next day and rinse and repeat. And I did that for ages as well. And this was when I was around my 69 kg weight over time from 87.5 kg 88. I was just doing these things one meal a day, the Warrior Diet, fasting it. And then I was like, okay, after the Warrior Diet thing, I was like, okay, this is too hard. I'm thinking about food all day. My training's average, my squats a week. I'm not getting any stronger. I'm just training. And then on top of that, sometimes I'd go for runs.
(00:23:18):
I was just overexerting myself. But I thought because I was so passionate, I was like, bro, this is how you get to that next level. This is how you look like those guys on simply shredding.com. That is how you get that top tier physique. You just got to keep pushing through. So because, what's the word? I was just so obsessed with getting this lean physique that would help me with my music career and make me feel good about myself. I just tried to muscle it out. And then I thought, okay, instead of fasting and having green tea and black coffee during the day and not having water, and then stuffing yourself, why don't you just have a really low amount of calories throughout the day? So I tried that next, and I just chose a number because I had no idea. I didn't do a calorie calculation or anything. I was like, 1500 calories, that's going to get me lean. That's going to get me lean. So I started tracking my calories on my fitness pound, 1500 calories.
(00:24:31):
My breakfast would be overnight oats. It was such a pitiful amount of oats. It was like, I can't remember. It was like 30 grammes of oats. It looks so sad. And then I'd put water in it because milk is too many calories. Remember that? I'm just joking. But I would have water with it to save calories. And then I'd put scoop of protein in, and then I'd put berries, but I would literally weigh the berries, like 20 grammes. And then at this point in my life, I was up to counting almonds. I still remember seven calories per almond. So I would count them. I would have 20 almonds. So I would get the bag of almonds and I would kind of spread them out on a table, and then I'll just kind of push them over to my hand and go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 20 almonds.
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I'd put them in, I'd have half a banana. And then I read on one of the articles that I found that grapefruit was like the fat burner. So I'd have half a grapefruit as well. So I still remember this diet, and this is the first time I've talked about it in a while, but it's still so fresh in my memory because that's what I was having. So I'd have this grapefruit with my overnight oats for breakfast and then for lunch, no snacks in between. No snacks, because snacking was bad. So I thought snacking was bad. Don't snack, don't snack. Just have three meals, 1500 calories. They can be 500 each. That's it. No snacks, no fruit because of fructose. So for lunch, I'd have brown rice, as much green vegetables as possible because I wasn't really tracking them. So once again, cabbage, spinach, things like that.
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Broccoli and zucchini. And I would add in pumpkin as well, but I would track that in carrots and some sort of meat. So I had that. And then I'd have the same thing for dinner. So overnight it's half a grapefruit, brown rice, meat, vegetable, and then dinner, brown rice, meat, vegetable. Sometimes at nighttime I would have a treat, but the treat is, it's embarrassing to say now my treat was a can of tuna. The smaller ones, I think they're about 95 grammes in spring water, because if it's in oil, that was too much fat. That was bad. So this was the kind of mindset that I was in. I would have a small can of tuna with another 20 almonds or even 10 sometimes. So I would count them out, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. So the can of tune is 140 calories, and then I'll have 140 calories off and I'll do the calculation.
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And I was like, okay, I'm still at 1500, it's good. Or maybe I went a little bit over, but if I went over my calories, this was where my mindset was like I have to exercise. So I would do a plank or I would go for a run. And when I used to go for runs, I've talked about this a little bit on social media, but when I used to go for runs, I would cut a hole in a rubbish bag, a black rubbish bag, and I would put my head through it. So in the bottom of the bag, I'd cut a hole and then I'd put my head through it, and then I'd cut arm holes in the bottom as well and put them out the side. And then I'd put a hoodie on and I would go for a run. And that for me was a fat burning run.
(00:28:13):
You know why? Because I was sweaty. And the more I sweat, the more body fat I was losing. This is how crazy I was. And if you still do that now, I'm not calling you crazy, but my mindset was crazy. I was tracking everything down to the gramme. I was literally treating myself. I was a professional athlete, yet I was on the calories of a little girl, literally a small girl. And I was a six foot dude who used to weigh close to 90 kilos. And now I'm on 1500 calories. I'm training weights. And if I slightly overeat my calories by maybe one calorie, I would put on my rubbish bag, I'd put my hoodie on and I'd be gone. I would go for a run at night, and then I wouldn't eat after that because I was like, I don't deserve it. I've been bad.
(00:29:06):
I just needed to work off my calories. And this cycle went for a very long time. And this is kind of the first time I've shared stuff like this. I've talked about it before, but I was in a really dark place, I guess I was obviously obsessed with my food. So my social life was zero. I would not go out to dinner with anyone unless I knew that menu back to front. But I didn't know if they put oil in it. I didn't know if they put extra salt in it, because back then I also thought that salt was the devil. So I didn't have salt, I didn't have fruit, I didn't have carbohydrates. I remember one time I was at someone's house for dinner and they made tomato soup, and they made it because they knew that I was eating healthy at the time, and I was so obsessed with dodging carbohydrates.
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There was croutons in the tomato soup, and I had my spoon, and I was literally picking them out in front of the lady that cooked them. And I was just so obsessed. I was like, I need to do this. I need to do this. This means a lot. Because I was trying to take off with the band or take off with my music career, or I also started TV presenting as well. So I was like, I need to look good. That's part of my image. That's my look. So I was very fixated. I took things super seriously. So I was picking out the croutons in front of her, and she was obviously offended, and she's like, what are you doing? And I was like, oh, I don't eat carbohydrates. And she's like, it's a piece of bread that's literally this big. And I was like, well, I don't eat bread.
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Bread's bad for you. So I picked them out, and as rude as that was, I still drank the tomato juice or tomato soup because I knew that tomatoes were pretty much no calories. So I was like, okay, that's cool, but I just won't have croutons because bread is bad and carbohydrates are bad. So I was in this good food versus bad food mindset, and then dessert came out, man, it was like, I can't remember what it was, but I definitely know there was ice cream. And if I was there today, I would've smashed that bowl of ice cream. But you know what I did? I told them that I was full, which was a lie, and I told them that I just wanted a green tea. So I was drinking heaps of green tea at the time because I thought green tea sped up your metabolism, because that's what was on the articles, that's what was on the things that I was reading.
(00:31:50):
So she made me a green tea. She was offended once again that I turned down her dessert and I had a green tea, and I was like, yes, bro, you are winning. You are so disciplined. You are going to be so successful. You are killing it, man. You are the man. And everyone else at the table was literally looking at me going, what are you doing? This was when I was really skinny. I was underweight 69 kg for someone that used to be 88, and these people knew me from when I was 88, and they were literally concerned about me. Brock, are you okay? Do you think you have a problem with your food? And I was like, no, I'm just focused. I'm just really serious about my nutrition. I take this serious. And little did I know, I probably did have a food problem, man, like turning down dessert at someone's house in front of them, picking the croutons out.
(00:32:47):
I would always pick things out of salads if I thought they were bad or I would never have anything that would suggest that it's high in carbohydrates. So I wasn't too much fun to be around. I didn't have much of a social life. I was over the top of my food. And to share a quick story, I remember. So there was this one time where, so I applied for a modelling agency. So as you can see, I was trying to do TV presenting and music and modelling. So that's when I thought my image had to be very skinny or lean because I was like, okay, I need to look like this and look like that. I need to fit in. So that's why I was still undereating and over-training and going for runs in my rubbish bag. And my modelling agency put me down for a competition called Cleo Bachelor of the Year.
(00:33:41):
And I was like, okay, I got nothing to lose. I was in the band, so it'll bring attention to the band if I qualify or get any sort of distance into it and get some exposure. It was the Cleo Magazine, which is quite big in New Zealand. So I was like, okay. So they put me forward and I got into the top 12. So I think my month was March. So we did a calendar shoot, and this made it even worse. I was like, okay. In my head I was like, okay, I'm a model now. I wasn't by any means, and I definitely don't think I'm a model today, but I was like, okay, I'm a model man. I need to really get lean. And I was already 69, 70 kg, and I was like, bro, man, you need to take an upper level. So before I did these photo shoots that I would go to, I would dehydrate because that's what these guys are talking about in these articles that that's what you do.
(00:34:44):
So I would literally stop drinking water two days before it. I would brush my teeth with dry toothpaste, and then I would just leave it. I wouldn't even rinse it out. I was having no water. I would still train, I would still run. I would still do everything I did throughout the day. I had the driest mouth in the world. It was like the desert in there, and I just wasn't having water, and I was just so focused, and it probably didn't even make a difference not having water for two days, but I thought this is what they were doing for their bodybuilding, competition, preps, physique competitive stuff. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do that because that's how you become the top tier athlete. So I did that and I'd pretend to smile and laugh with all the guys and stuff at the photo shoot and the photographer and all that stuff.
(00:35:34):
And I don't mean pretend be fake to them. I was still myself, but I was always really pushing. And I say pretend because I was struggling. I was thinking about food. I was dying to have some water, but I was so disciplined or crazy, whatever word you want to use that I wouldn't have it. So I turned that down. The water, they would offer the food they would have on site, and I would just do the shoot. And then as soon as it finished, I would scale back as much water as possible and look for the protein only options or the low carb options of whatever food was on there. And I would have that. And I remember, so for the Cleo Bachelor of the Year competition, I actually ended up winning. And they told me a couple of months before the party where they announced it, so they told me I was super stoked. I was like, that's so cool. That's going to help me with my modelling career. That's going to help me with the band that may help me with some future things that I'm doing with TV or whatever with music.
(00:36:44):
So the photo shoot was before that because when they announced the winner, the magazine came out the next day. So obviously you have to do the photo shoot beforehand. So they have the photos, they make the magazine, and then you win. Then the next morning it comes out little. Do they know that or little does everyone else know that you've already done the photos and no one that you've won A couple months ago for that photo shoot date, I came up a couple months before that party, and we did the photo shoot. And once again, I didn't drink water for two days. I was having my almonds and canned tuna and water and overnight oats, grapefruit, brown rice, meat, vegetables over, rinse and repeat. Regardless of if I was hungry or not. I would never break my calories because I was focused. So I did that.
(00:37:36):
I did the photo shoot, and then I had some time before the actual party. And even though I'd already won, I took that party really serious because that after party was where all the other contestants were. And I knew that there would be some important people say maybe to do with modelling, and there was a big radio station, so the Edge radio station in New Zealand, the presenters were going to be there to announce the winner and the winner got a check. It wasn't much, but I was grateful for any sort of money that I had at that time because I wasn't rich or anything at that time. Even though it may look like you're doing music and you're doing tv, doing modelling, it may look really cool. But I was struggling. I was for sure struggling. I was living on my own, paying my own rent. Anyway, that's not really relevant.
(00:38:30):
So everyone was coming to this party. So there was a lot of pressure on me that I put on myself. I was like, okay, I know that I'm already going to win, right? But I need to look like a winner. I need to be shredded. I need to be the CLE Bachelor of the year. And we had to take our shirt off and walk around on stage and stuff like that. And I know this sounds crazy, it's just a little bachelor of the year modelling thing that I look back at now and I kind of laugh at. But at this time as now you have this insight to this crazy mindset that I had. I was super disciplined leading up to it. I was dehydrating two days out, no water. And the thing about the party was it was at nighttime and throughout the day, there were chips, there were beers, there were pizza, there were pies, there were wedges with sour cream and sweet chilli sauce that I would've just loved to bite into.
(00:39:21):
But when we flew in for the party, or sorry, when I flew in, I literally packed three cans of tuna and a bag of almonds, like a Ziploc of almonds. I can still remember it. And when they were eating their chips and having beers and they were just enjoying themselves, I was cracking open. And I remember I was kind of embarrassed because they were just like, so whatever, let's just have fun. And here's me, I've already won, but I'm super serious. I'm eating my canned tuna with water and counting my almonds, 10 almonds, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, eat it. And then I'd just have that for breakfast and then for lunch, I'd have the same thing. And then for dinner, I was having the same thing too. And then we did the party and we were walking around and I took my shirt off. I was walking on the thing and they were like, we had to dance.
(00:40:19):
And it was kind of a kind of fun night. It was really cool. But then they announced the winner. I came to the front, I got the check. It was a thousand dollars. I was stoked. A thousand dollars was a lot to me at the time. It still is a lot of money. And I remember winning and I was super stoked, but I didn't really have any friends there that night to celebrate with or anything. And all the other guys were mates. And because I was taking it so serious, I wasn't super friendly. I was so focused on just sticking to my calories. And like I said, I was hangry all the time thinking about food. So as soon as I won, I remember getting the check and doing the interview and joking around and stuff. I went straight to the bar and she's like, what do you want?
(00:41:07):
Because she knew that I wanted, she's like, what do you want? You can have anything. It is on the house. And I was like, I just want the biggest glass you have of water. And she's like, oh, okay. So I didn't drink. I've never really drank in my life, but I didn't want a beer or anything like that. I just wanted water. But I said, I just want the biggest glass. I said, I'm happy to take a jug if you need, just get me some water. She was like, okay, that's a bit weird. So she gave it to me and I just scouted it. I remember her looking at me, what is wrong with you? I got it. It was a pretty big glass, and I just scouted it, scouted it, scouted it all the way back. And then she's like, whoa, you must be really fige.
(00:41:50):
And I was like, yeah, I am. Little did she know, I've dehydrated myself for two days straight. So I said, can I have another one? Then I just banged the second one straight in front of her bang, and I said, can I have another one? I'm just really thirsty. Then I had a third one. Then I had set up the next morning. I knew I was going to win and have that title. I set up a couple of meetings with modelling agencies the next morning, and I remember, and this is still stuck in my head, I was telling Kiki this, I think I told her earlier this year that I was, so, this is how crazy I was. I like, I went back to the hotel room because all the other boys that were there that didn't win, but they were all hanging out and they were all mates.
(00:42:35):
They were like, Brock, man, we're going out tonight. Do you want to come out dancing or just hang out? We are going to go have some fun. And I said, nah, man, sorry, I'm just going to go home. They were like, all good, man. Have a good night. And I went home. I had that meeting in the morning with the modelling agency that I knew I was going to have, and I was like, okay, I'm going to celebrate tonight. And I was thinking in a hotel room by myself, but I was like, I'm going to celebrate. And this is so embarrassing. I remember getting an apple and an orange, and I had a Ziploc bag of protein powder and a protein shaker, and I was like, I'm going to have fruit tonight.
(00:43:23):
I'm sorry. I can't take myself seriously. It was so bad. I thought that having an apple and an orange that night was a bad thing to do. Oh, I'm celebrating. I'm having a cheat meal. I'm having an apple and an orange, and it is just so embarrassing. That's the place that I was at. I was so obsessed. Carbs were bad, fruit was bad. I was breaking two rules. And one night I was like, man, this is crazy. And I had the apple and literally, man, that is the best apple I've ever had in my life. I was so deprived of any sort of sugar, any sort of fruit, any sort of carbohydrate that was just the best apple I've had in my life. And then that orange that I had that night was also amazing. And then I just had protein shake, but with water because I still wanted to be lean and look good for the modelling thing the next day.
(00:44:17):
So I had that meeting and I ended up getting signed to that agency, which was awesome. But just the mindset that I had around nutrition was just absolutely mental, and I haven't talked about this much. So this is why I'm going into so much detail because I post a lot on social media on Instagram saying, there's no such thing as a bad food or a good food, or let's just flexible diet. Eat the foods that you love. Instead of thinking of what you need to take out of your diet, think about what you can keep in your diet whilst still dieting. And I share this stuff, and I often get a lot of hate from people saying, you shouldn't be spreading this, and ice cream is bad for you. Sugar is the reason why there's a obesity problem in the world and bread is bad for you and all this kind of stuff.
(00:45:11):
But I come from this place where I literally eliminated all of that. And my whole life, my whole world was different because I was fixated by food. I was depriving myself. I certain foods I was holding back. I mean, I was restricting myself on calories. I was literally having 1500 calories a day. I was scared of carbohydrates. I was scared of eating out, and I was no fun to be around. I was hangry. I was just thinking about the next food or the next meal that I was going to have that day or the next day. And that's why I talk so much about flexible dieting because it literally saved my life. If I was still like that, I don't know if I would have any friends today. I don't know if I would be engaged today. I don't know if I would be a personal trainer.
(00:46:02):
I think I would've burnt out. I think I would've just been so strict. I think I just would be no fun to be around. I wouldn't have energy to talk about this on my podcast. And that's why I'm so grateful for flexible dieting. And it sounds really cheesy, but it is literally what helps me be me, because now to fast forward to where I am today, I'm eating an extra 2000 calories a day than I was back then, and I'm, let's say 20 kilos heavier, 21, 23 kilos heavier. Instead of being 69 kg where I was deprived, I was over-training. I was doing cardio when I didn't need to. I was trying to exercise my calories that I over-consumed. If I did, now I'm having 3,500 calories. I'm literally training less than I was before. I like five to six days a week. I'm eating the foods I love.
(00:46:59):
If I feel like a sandwich, I have a sandwich. If I feel like ice cream at night, I'll have ice cream. If I feel like for breakfast throwing chocolate into my oats, then I'll do that. If I feel like having an extra portion of peanut butter in the morning, I'll do that because yes, I do have more calories, but I also have the understanding that if I make it work within my calories and it's a food that I'm not allergic to or that isn't going to do any disservice to my body, then it's going to fuel my body. So flexible dieting has literally saved my life. So to jump back into that point where I was dehydrating and all that kind of stuff, to kind of fast forward in time a little bit, I kind of stopped doing music. And I came to this place where I was like, man, what do I do with myself?
(00:47:56):
And I decided to become a pt. I always loved training. I was obviously obsessed with nutrition, even though I was doing it completely wrong in my eyes. So I enrolled for an online course, and then a friend of mine, jazz, when I first moved to Auckland, she was like, oh, she worked at City Fitness. And she was like, well, you can get a job here if you want being a pt. And I was like, yeah, I'm doing my course now. She's like, well, if you join, you do this course and then you can start pretty much straight away after 14 days. So I did a seven day course and I did some other things around it. And then I was jumping into a pt, and it was kind of like an internship. You would do the course and then you would continue to learn as you PT people.
(00:48:45):
But I wasn't illegally personal training people, but I was learning as I went from other PTs and I was getting lessons from other PTs, I was doing workshops and I still took on clients, but it was awesome, man. It was like a job that I absolutely loved. I obviously loved music. I loved trying things with modelling and trying things with TV as well. But personal training was where I really felt at home when I was doing it, and I really excelled at it too. I became one of their busiest trainers really quickly. And the thing is, my nutrition never really got better.
(00:49:27):
I didn't become scared of carbs, so I overcame that fear and I understood as a pt, I should have that. Carbs weren't the enemy, but I was still over restricting. And then this is when I kind of started binge eating. So I was over restricting. So I would wake up at 4 45 in the morning to start personal training at six. I'd get to the gym, I would walk the floor, I would be walking all day trying to help people, trying to build my clientele as a personal trainer and also train as well. And I would just have boiled eggs for breakfast, and I'd be walking around all day training as well, helping people trying to build my clientele base. And then for lunch, I might have a protein shake, and then I would train people, all that kind of stuff. And I would work till about 9:00 PM 8:00 PM and then I would go home and eat.
(00:50:18):
And by that time, I'd only had about, I was eating a lot of eggs at that time, like eight to 10 boil eggs, so it is quite a lot and a protein shake. And then I got home, but I probably trained twice. I'd probably done somewhere between 20 to 30,000 steps, which is normal for a personal trainer. So I would get home and I would literally smash so many calories. And you'll think, man, how can you gain weight when you do 20 to 30,000 steps and you're training about twice a day? And let me tell you, I was literally stuffing my face every night and I was gaining weight. And I remember a client of mine said, Brooke, are you trying to bulk? Are you trying to put on science? But in my head, I was trying to get leaner. That's why I was having boiled eggs for breakfast, a protein check for lunch.
(00:51:08):
And then I was meant to have a good dinner at nighttime, but I would just binge and have literally four to 5,000 calories of just junk food. You kind of switch off and you go to this really dark place and you just keep stuffing yourself. And it was a combination of things like, yes, I was over restricting myself, but I was also living on my own. I was very isolated. I was upset, I think in a lot of aspects of my life. So nutrition we're not robots. It's not just like, oh, calories in versus calories out. It's like there's other things in our life too. I think there was a time where I first started personal training. Before that I was depressed. I feel like I was just not very happy because I gave up on music. I didn't know what to do with my life.
(00:51:52):
I felt very purposeless. And that's when kind of binge eating started coming in, because food is a place of comfort as well for you, and that's where you can get comfort. So I would binge eat at nighttime to, I guess try and make myself feel better, but then the next morning you feel worse. You feel guilty because you've eaten bad foods, because you've eaten a tonne of carbohydrates. You've eaten junk food, you've eaten processed foods. So I'd wake up and feel terrible and then start again. Boil extra breakfast, protein check for lunch, skip dinner, because I was working so much. Because when you're a personal trainer, dinner time between five to 7:00 PM those are your busiest hours as a personal trainer. So you work through it. And then when everyone goes home to their family and kids, I would go home and bingeing, because I was so overworked, under eaten, stressed out, trying to build a personal training business. And I was doing TV work on the side as well, and random modelling jobs. And I was just really overstretched. So I had a really bad relationship with food. So I ended up moving away from Auckland, and I went to live with my brother and his wife's family, which Katherine and Shane, Josh, Angelica, Chelsea, t and Aria. I absolutely love them so much.
(00:53:16):
I lived with my brother, which was awesome. I was overworked and stuff. And then when I went to Queensland, I was better nutrition wise because they cooked a lot of food. But even my brother would say, I was still avoiding carbohydrates a lot. They would have their meals, and I would have my meals because I was so like, I don't eat bread, I don't eat this. And then I tried to do keto. So this is where my dieting history really evolved. So I went from one meal a day to warrior diet to different protocols of intermittent fasting, to really low calorie to low carb. And now I'm here at keto, and I would have just heaps of fats, heaps of nuts and just heaps of meat. I don't think I stuck to keto. I think my protein was too high. But anyway, I tried to do that, and once again, I was never really happy.
(00:54:16):
I was never satisfied. I had a really swollen look on my face. I still don't really know what that is. I've never searched it, but it looked like baby fat. But I had a very swollen face during this time that I would do that. And that never really worked for me. It was extremely restrictive. I was literally living in a house with my brother and his wife's family, and I was having different meals because I was so obsessed, like keto, I want to know exactly what's in the food. And my brother would look at my food going like, what the hell are you eating? I literally was still in that same mindset of like, no, I'm just focused. I'm just sticking to keto because I know that it's going to work and this is how you get to that top level type of thing. So I was personal training, but I was still singing in Gold Coast.
(00:55:04):
I started that backup over there and trying keto, and I wasn't sleeping much. I still didn't really know that. And I never really fixed my nutrition. So I didn't last that long in Queensland. I think I lasted somewhere between six to eight months. And then I moved to Sydney to live with my auntie. And then I kind of still tried to push my music, but I was definitely kind of falling more in love with personal training at the time. And then I just went head over heels into personal training, and I moved out from my auntie's house after a couple of months or three months I think. And I moved into my own place in the city of Sydney to become a personal trainer. And you think, okay, I probably sorted out my nutrition now. I didn't. And I was still personal training people and I was building my business, trying to get clients and trying to, and this is when I started doing courses and stuff too, really growing my education online courses too, go into as many face-to-face workshops as I could in Sydney, but I was still super stressed.
(00:56:16):
I was working really hard. I wasn't sleeping much and I was still making bad nutritional decisions. My training dramatically improved. When I first became a personal trainer, I started learning things. I started learning what a horizontal push and a vertical push was, a horizontal pull and a vertical pull, a hip dominant move or a knee dominant move, an AB exercise. I started learning these things, which sounds really basic now, but as a kid, that was 14 that just got into lifting. I didn't know much. I just kind of was just so passionate. I just dived right in. Even with nutrition, didn't know much. Just dived right in, went all the very aggressive routes. So I started, my training was drastically better, but in Sydney I was still over restricting, having low calories, eating food for fuel, not for taste, and I wasn't really flexible dieting when I first started PT here in Sydney, I was extremely restrictive.
(00:57:14):
And then there was no real distinct point where I just went like, stuff this. It's not working. I think one day I just got really sick of myself because I knew it wasn't healthy and I knew that it wasn't just, I was mature enough to understand that it wasn't just, yeah, Brock, let's go hard. You're just disciplined. Just keep pushing through it's discipline, bro. It's not crazy. You are just, maybe you're just a cut above the rest. You're just extremely disciplined. They don't understand how committed you are. I kind of understood I was a bit more mature now to understand that that was not the case, that I probably was just a bit crazy with my nutrition and a bit over the top and it wasn't working out for me. In Sydney, I would work big hours because I started from scratch in Sydney.
(00:58:07):
I didn't really have any friends. When I started p Ting at Market Street Fitness, first in the city, I became friends with people for sure, and I got really close with Dave Conia and Cole, but I still didn't really have many friends. So I would just work a lot. I work, I would get to the gym at 6:00 AM I'd leave at eight to 9:00 PM That same model I used in Auckland to get to be one of the busiest trainers in the gym I did in Sydney. And then I became one of the busiest trainers in the gym that I was working at in Sydney. But I was under eating throughout the day. And then I'd get home and I was probably just overwhelmed from working with 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM and training twice a day and doing all the steps and stuff. I would binge. So I still remember this one day I was coming home from the gym.
(00:58:56):
I stopped at McDonald's and I got three burgers, a Big Mac, a McChicken, and an Angus beef burger. I can still remember it. I didn't get fries because I was like, I don't just want to fill up on fries. I got a chocolate sundae because they're delicious. And then I walked past a Indian takeaway store and I got butter chicken with rice and cheese and garlic nam because they are awesome. If you're going to get a Nam go cheese and garlic namm, you will not regret it. And then I took that home and I didn't start eating. I went to a grocery store and this is this thing I used to do. I used to get full fat cream. Maybe it was double cream or extra thickened cream. I'm not sure what it was, but I used to get that. And I used to get muley and I used to get a jar of peanut butter and chocolate, and I used to just make a big as muley bowl with double cream all through it.
(00:59:56):
And then pretty much a whole tub of peanut butter on top and then a whole block of chocolate on top. If you know much about calories, that's a calorie bomb waiting to go off. But I would have that as dessert. And first I would eat the McDonald's burgers and butter chicken and rice and cheese and garlic, none. And I was full, but I was still in that mindset of stuff it trying to find comfort. And maybe I was still depressed and overworked type of thing because when I first started pt, and I've talked about this before, I was, because I was going by a franchisee model, you don't get paid by the hour. You get paid per client and you pay rent, so rent comes out, but if you have no clients, you still pay rent and the rent is quite expensive. So I paid all my franchise fees and I didn't have much money left, so I worked three jobs while I was ping, so I was extremely stressed.
(01:00:57):
I would try and build my clientele from 6:00 AM till 9:00 PM Monday to Friday, and then Friday night I would go and wash dishes at a hotel thanks to my cousin GY who hooked me up with a job. Appreciate that brother. And I would work from Friday night till midnight after work as a pt, I would go and wash dishes, and then Saturday morning I would wash dishes at one hotel and then straight after I finished my shift there, I would go to another hotel and wash dishes until midnight, and then I'll do that again on Sunday. Wake up wash dishes from, I think it was eight in the morning till about midday at one hotel. And then I'd go and I'd start from two or three and go to midnight at another hotel. So I was working a lot. I was kind of like with nutrition at that point, I was just trying to restrict it during stay lean and all that kind of stuff in the mornings with low carb, low calorie meals and breakfast and lunch.
(01:01:59):
And then at nighttime, I just ended up bingeing all the time and just going over my calories. And I was in this vicious cycle where I felt like I couldn't get out of it. And like I was saying before, it didn't really click. I didn't just go, oh, I just don't want to do that anymore. I think I was just over the feeling of feeling defeated. I was over the feeling of feeling boxed was in a diet that didn't work. And I think it was just also a combination of learning all the things I was learning in workshops and from other personal trainers that I worked with that isn't the solution. The solution is not extremely restricting things and saying, you can't have this, you can't have that because it just leads. Well, for me, I'm speaking from experience now and I guess from some of my client's experience that I've had the privilege of coaching now being online and also my face-to-face work that I know it didn't work for me.
(01:03:05):
Carbs are bad, fruit is bad, sugar is bad, all that kind of stuff. I would avoid it for the first two meals of the day and then for dinner and onwards, I would just cave in and I'd eat all that stuff that I was planning not to because I was so deprived. And also, yes, I had a lot of stress in life as well, and everyone has the things that they're going through in life. I'm not saying I'm special that my hardship is harder than yours, but we all have stress in our life, and I feel like if we're depriving ourself of things nutritionally that we don't necessarily need to be doing, then as soon as we hit a point where we can't handle it or we just kind of cave in, the pressure becomes too much. That's when we go and binge and we go and overdo our calories and we feel guilty.
(01:03:56):
Then we stop training and then we feel like, okay, we got diet starts Monday. We feel like we have to reset, and this is where I want to really talk about flexible dieting once again. And this is how it's saved me. And as soon as I started incorporating foods that I loved, that I actually loved, not just like I love it because it's good for me, I would say to myself, I love sweet potato or I love steak, but it was really just because I knew it was healthy for me. But ice cream, hands down, I can say I love ice cream. I really love ice cream, and I will eat ice cream every day if I could. And I used to, when I was a personal trainer, I was doing 20 to 30,000 steps per day and training once to twice per day. I could get away with a tub of Ben and Jerry's every day.
(01:04:55):
And I'm not advocating that. I'm not saying that you should do that because I definitely think it was out of control and I was just kind of make abusing my physical activity levels for being able to consume that sort of stuff. But yeah, I really love it. And now I eat that stuff on a regular basis and I don't feel guilty about it. And I don't feel like ever since I've started flexible diet properly with the right mindset, I haven't felt like I've needed to binge or go over my calories or go off in a crazy direction where I just feel like I can't be helped. And I feel guilty for breaking my diet because flexible dieting is, I believe following a principle of 80% nutritious, 20% delicious. And that's where I am at the moment. And coming from what I've come from through this whole podcast, sharing pretty much my whole diet history of my life, where most of it, this is where my happy place is. So 80% of my diet is nutritious. I try and fill it up with lean cuts of protein, with vegetables, with fruit, with a wide variation of colours and micro and micronutrients, plenty of nutrient dense foods. And then 20% of my diet. I like to contribute to foods that I love.
(01:06:23):
And a lot of people will say, well, why don't you just have a hundred percent because that's going to be way better for you. Sure, I'm going to say, sure, physically that might work for you. But psychologically, that has never worked for me. And I can say that with confidence as you know my story. Now I've done that. I've had the a hundred percent clean diet. I've hit my calories to the tea. I've been obsessed with it. And sure, physically that may have been better for me, but it was never sustainable. And psychologically it was terrible because I couldn't stick to it. I was just like, I felt trapped. And then as soon as I felt trapped and I felt like the pressure was too much of life or of whatever, then I feel like I caved in. And that has been a lifesaver for me.
(01:07:16):
Like I've said many times throughout this podcast, flexible dieting has literally helped me. I fuel my body properly now. So now I'm eating enough calories, I'm sitting at a healthy weight for me, I'm sitting at somewhere. I kind of fluctuate between 89 kg to 92. That's kind of my healthy place for me. I have about 3,500 calories per day. I try and hit 220 grammes of protein and my carbs and fats just sit where they sit. So that allows me to be more flexible. If I want more carbs or more fats in one day, if I train pretty hard, I'll gravitate more towards carbohydrates to fuel that. But now I know I'm very aware of calories of protein, of fats, of carbs, and I've found my sweet spot, but I've only found that through experience. So I'm just telling you my experience. I'm not saying you have to have 80% nutritious foods and 20% delicious because maybe that ratio doesn't work for you.
(01:08:22):
Or maybe you want to eat a hundred percent clean Monday to Friday and then Saturday, Sunday have more of a flexible diet. Then where you might have Saturday, you might have a meal that's higher calories, and Sunday you might go out and have pizza with your friends. That's cool. But this is what flexible dining can open up for you and what has opened up for me. So now I am at a place, and I have been for quite a few years now, where I can go out with friends and family or even new people if I'm meeting new people and eat dinner without feeling guilty for having certain foods, or I can eat carbohydrates and just know that that's going to be okay. That okay, I just had a piece of fruit, but the world's not going to end and all my progress isn't going to go through the window or down the toilet.
(01:09:13):
And it's also helped me include foods that I love eating ice cream on a regular basis. I didn't think I could have that lifestyle of enjoying myself. I was always in that super focused, super dedicated mindset because I thought that was the only way. That was the only way to fuel your body. That was the only way to reach that physique or reach that strength level that I wanted to be as strong as possible and use my body for what it's meant to be used for. But now I know that I can have bread, I can have chocolate. I'm about to release a YouTube video this week about my breakfast that I have most mornings, which is Chobani yoghourt, and that's the foundation. But on top of that, I put in whatever I want or whatever I feel like that morning. So yoghourt is a super great protein sauce, but I'll put mixed berries in it most days.
(01:10:08):
Sometimes I'll put peanut butter in, sometimes I won't. Sometimes I'll put chocolate in it, sometimes I won't. Sometimes I'll put honey in, sometimes I won't. I'll put cinnamon in. I'll put vanilla essence in. But flexible dieting has given me this freedom where I don't have to wake up and say, okay, I'm having my overnight oats of 30 grammes of oats, half a grapefruit water because dairy was bad for you. I thought dairy was bad for you. But now I'm having dairy every day and I feel okay. I feel fine. So I guess what I want to you to take away from this podcast is I didn't just want to rant about my experience and for you to get nothing out of it, even though you probably laughed a couple of times. I want you to learn from my mistakes and take whatever you want from it.
(01:10:57):
That's why I created this podcast better with Brock. I'm literally sitting here telling you what I've gone through so that you can make changes to your lifestyle. Maybe you can see yourself like the Brock that would have one meal a day because he thought that was the only way to drop body fat. Or maybe you are at a place that was where I was, where you are dehydrating or not drinking water two days before you have a photo shoot for something because you think that that's the only way to get lean. Or maybe you are doing keto at the moment because you think that that's the best way to get lean. But I can tell you, you can still eat carbohydrates and get really lean if you want to. So I just want you to learn from my experience, there's not many personal trainers that will admit that they've had this kind of shocking past, or I would call it a shocking past or learning experience, just so you can learn from it.
(01:11:58):
I want you to take what you can from it, because I train many clients around the world these days for my work. I'm an online personal trainer, and I know that there's still a lot of people in positions where I was, or with the mindsets that I used to have that carbs are bad, that fruit is bad, that keto is the only way to drop body fat or intermittent fasting is the only way to get lean, or you have to have one meal a day, and if you have two, then you're going to gain weight or you're not going to make progress. So yeah, I hope that just gives you an insight, and maybe it's giving you some tools to change the trajectory that you're on, and maybe you feel like you're not in a sustainable diet at the moment, and hopefully this can help you have a sustainable diet because trust me, when you find your happy place like I have, and maybe I'll find a happier place later on, but at the moment, I'm pretty darn happy if you find this place.
(01:13:09):
It's a great place to be in when nutrition doesn't have to consume your life. I don't sit around all day thinking about what I'm going to eat now, and that's big progress. It sounds like a small deal, but that's a really big deal for me, and that allows me to be more productive in my work life. It allows me to be more present in my social life, and it allows me to enjoy my nutrition as opposed to being scared of it, or as opposed to thinking that this is just fuel. You shouldn't eat for enjoyment. Now, I do enjoy ice cream and I have it to enjoy myself. Sometimes I will add a piece of bread with dinner because I feel like it. Sometimes I will add a wrap. Sometimes, like I said before, I'll put chocolate in my yoghourt because I feel like it.
(01:13:58):
And once you have an understanding that there is no such thing and I strongly believe this as good foods and bad foods, then you can open yourself up to a diet that may last forever for you. Obviously, there are good foods and bad foods. A bad food is a food that you physically can't eat. If you are a celiac, then a bad food is a food that contains gluten for you. If you are allergic to nuts than eating, peanut butter is a bad food for you. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the mindset of good foods and bad foods, like carbs are bad, protein is good. Having that sort of stance. So yeah, I hope you've learned a lot from this podcast. This is the first episode. There's going to be many more. I have some guests that I want to get on. I have a lot of topics that I want to talk about. I haven't even talked about my training. It's been very nutrition based, but I have many ideas that I want to cover and present to you, and you can take what you want from it. So I hope you've enjoyed this. I'd appreciate if you share this on your stories or share this to your friends and family or subscribe to the podcast. I would appreciate it very much. This is Brock Ashby. I'll see you later. Bye.